”Why We’re Not a Cult” Or ”Going Forth” From Consumerism, Egoism, and Other Bad -Isms | Ajahn Kovilo

Bakawato
sama
bakawato
sama sambasa
bakawhat
sama sam buddhasa
So I thought today I might actually talk
about
activism or Buddhist activism. Um,
but actually more through the lens of
what I'm calling, and somebody's
probably said this before, but I think
it's an interesting word, is deactivism.
Deactivism. Um
before going into what I might mean by
that, um I would love it if uh those who
are willing and interested if we could
do this uh this chant again on page 57,
the 10 subjects for frequent
recollection for one who has gone forth.
And if someone chanted it the first time
around and felt like this monk tricked
me, I don't even know what it is to go
forth, then no pressure to chant. Um but
actually I will be asking people uh
after we finish the chant to maybe share
some just quick brief reflections about
what this might mean to you if it means
anything. This going forth what is the
Buddha pointing to.
Okay. And for here we'll do the English
again. Um but we won't say that line.
This should be reflected upon again and
again by one who has gone forth until
the final time uh on at the bottom of
59. So we'll just skip that two-line
refrain
because there are 10 damas which should
be reflected upon again and again by one
who has gone forth.
What are these 10?
I am no longer living according to
worldly aims and values.
My very life is sustained through the
gifts of others.
I should strive to abandon my former
habits.
Does regret over my conduct arise in my
mind?
Good. My spiritual companions find fault
with my conduct.
All that is mine, beloved, and pleasing
will become otherwise
will become separated from me. I am the
owner of my comma. Heir to my comma.
Born of my comma.
Related to my kama. Abide supported by
my comma.
Whatever comma I shall do for good or
for ill of that I will be the heir.
The days and nights are relentlessly
passing.
How well am I spending my time?
Do I delight in solitude or not? Has my
practice borne fruit with freedom or
insight?
So that at the end of my life, I need
not feel ashamed when questioned by my
spiritual companions.
Because these are the tendas to be
reflected upon again and again by one
who has gone forth.
And I will be referring to these 10
damas uh through the next course of the
next half hour or so. So you can feel
free to keep your book open and you
could even totally phase me out and just
focus on memorizing the the suta if you
wanted. There's so much there. We spend
a lot of time. This is one of the big
ways that we have fun in a monastery. We
give up so many things. We have so many
rules, but we can still chant. We can
chant all day and there's no there's no
prohibition. It's just great. So we we
do it a lot. Um we memorize these in
English, memorize them in poly. And it's
fascinating when you really try to
internalize and memorize something. I'd
encourage anybody if this suta doesn't
work for you, maybe something else in
this book does. A very related discourse
in here is the five subjects of frequent
recollection which can contain uh uh
sixth and seventh here about um
everything passing away and being the
owners of our kama. A really great other
suta you can memorize. But whatever it
is, when you memorize something, you're
learning to pay attention to it in
different ways at different times cuz
words and concepts uh hit you
differently uh depending on where you're
at in the course of a day, in the course
of a life.
So I'm curious, uh was there anybody for
whom this just seemed totally
inscrutable? The concept of going forth
just seem totally foreign, totally
alien. Don't want it and don't want to
have anything to do with it. Don't
understand it and don't want to
understand it. Anybody brave brave
hands?
Oh,
I wouldn't I wouldn't have judged you. I
wouldn't have judged you. Um,
so nobody raised their hand, but um
yeah, I am curious. Um this is probably
a unknown concept to many of you. Um so
this concept of going forth just
immediately not having any background
about what the poly is or what the
Buddha may have been meaning by this. Uh
who might be so brave as to suggest what
it meant for you? How might it be
meaningful for you if it if it was at
all as we chanted it twice? You can just
raise your hand and say it out. Yeah,
please.
Committing to practice all do.
Yeah. Awesome.
Making life about seeking the path. It's
all do.
Yeah.
Every time you go out to be with other
people. Thank you.
Giving up lay life
retirement and reflecting on your life.
Yeah.
And do you delight in solitude or night?
Not. That's fantastic. And you have just
retired. So this is perfect. You need to
chant this every day. Come on. Yeah.
This is what should be reflected upon
again and again by one who has
go into your fridge. All right. That's
not one of the official ones, but um
Oh, it's going on your fridge. Okay.
Very different reflection. Uh yeah,
please.
Actively making a choice going forth to
choose. Yeah, please. Christine,
say that again.
The merging of action and awareness su
committing to dhamma in lay life.
Wonderful. And I think we'll just uh cap
it there, but we'll be talking about
this for the next half hour and then
we'll open things up if people do as you
marinate in this concept and hear more
about the context the Buddha was using
it in uh seeing if it does become
meaningful for you. So the word the
Buddha is using is paitta and uh it is
literally referring to uh someone who
has gone forth from lay life into novice
ordination. So the novice ordination
before you become a monk or a nun is
called uh the pabaja and one who's gone
forth is a pabitta. So this is on one
level as Julie was saying uh very much a
reflection for people who've gone forth
and I loved it. I was memorizing this
when I was in that phase of my life
where I am I'm wearing white. I've given
up the ro I've given up the clothing of
a lay person and I'm trying to commit
myself to this different form of of
living in the world.
And so it's definitely that but I think
as Sue said also committing to the path
as a lay person. The term literally does
the English translation going forth does
have all of the other connotations that
people bring to it. going forth from
where you're at, making the choice to
commit to the the path, bringing
awareness and choice to the the present
moment.
So, um I first lived in Seattle in 2003.
That was a big year in my life. I had it
was between my first and second year of
university. Uh I had already done before
university had done a year of
Americanore which is like the peace
corps in America
and yeah in between the second first and
second year of university um I
encountered two things to at the time I
felt very beautiful things deep dives
into Buddhism and to anarchism
anarchism. I moved here across the
country uh with an anarchist friend and
lived in this dirty old anarchist
commune up in the U district with like
13 other people and uh it was dirty. It
was dirty but it was also beautiful. I
mean living with these very creative
people who are making the choice in the
present moment to live uh try to live in
beautiful ways as they understood that
and I thought it was fascinating. It was
a really uh beautiful subculture that I
had never dipped into quite as much as I
did that summer. And then right after
that, I went it was Yeah, I went to
something called MutantFest, which is
kind of like a rainbow gathering but
with more face tattoos. And
yeah, went to that and then rode a
school bus across the country back to my
first Goinka retreat when I sat uh my
first it was my first big deep dive into
Buddhism. So these two seemingly I I
felt at the time that they were very uh
consonant like there was a lot of both
of them are talking about going forth.
You're looking at mainstream culture in
different ways and saying actually I
don't want to live in this way the the
dominant society of consumerism and
hyperindividualism
and
just so many isms that I was just not
into at the time and was just saying
okay this is I don't want to give my
life to this my heart seems bigger I
want my heart to be able to have a
bigger vessel than just what it seems
like society is putting forth is the the
right trajectory for me.
So for a few years I was trying to
figure out how to live both and I was
reading articles. There's an article by
Gary Snyder who was one of Jack
Carowak's friends called anarcho
Buddhism and I was writing Zenes about
Buddhism and and anarchism and putting
these together and seeing the overlap.
You know it is a a giving up of society.
Um and for me at the time and I think
still uh anarchism you know giving up of
rules uh is beautiful in the ideal but
for me I just needed more archism
I need more structure you know just
giving up every rule ever is you know I
just didn't have anything to to settle
on and was you know kind of going too
far in different direct directions and
coming to Buddhism and encountering
sutas like this and uh forms of
meditation to really train the mind. My
mind wasn't trained enough to deal with
the expanse that anarchism seemed to to
open up.
Um so yeah leading more in the direction
of of Buddhism and of a monastic life.
Pretty much after that first going
retreat I was like okay this is a type
of education which is going much much
much more deep than the type of
education I was getting at the
university.
This is a type of learning which is
really I just can't get it in school. I
need to devote my life to this. This is
going to be a lifelong learning lesson.
So pretty much from that time on I was
headed in the direction of of
monasteries.
So I was really happy to um yeah
encounter Terravada Buddhism which is
the Buddhism from which the Gowinka
tradition kind of emerges and to be
given these different structures um this
overarching system of ways of training
the mind. It's not just no holds barred,
you know, it's uh you're given a net and
you're given uh safety measures, both
protecting yourself and protecting those
around you. So, I'll just be going
through each of these different
recollections for one who's gone forth
and uh kind of framing them in the
direction of what it's pointing one is
going forth from and what one is going
forth to because that's really important
because so much of when we start seeing
the drawbacks and the inferiority of you
know just a a cookie cutter life as it's
half-hazardly presented.
by society or by advertising. Uh when
you see the drawbacks of that, so much
can just be a pushing away, an aversion,
a going forth from, but you don't yet
have a clear what you're going forth to.
So the first one is
I am no longer living according to
worldly aims and values. Uh the a more
specific uh accurate translation would
be I'm leaving the cast system. So vani
yamhi adjupagoti
I'm leaving the varna the system of
cast. So the cast system did exist at
the time of the Buddha and it still
exists in various forms in uh various
countries uh to greater or lesser extent
and the word literally just means color.
So I think that still has resonances. We
all do still cling to various colors in
our life. And oftentimes for especially
in American America, a lot of a lot of
Buddhism honestly is upper middleway
upper middleway Buddhism. You have a lot
of uh upper middle class people and the
colors that we cling to there are
largely
red and blue, red and blue. And so is
there a place in in activism? So so much
of activism is entrenching yourself in
the red or in the blue
and in the flavors of that and seeing
the clear lines between, okay, here's my
here's where my color my color is
clearly ended here and those guys over
there are clearly a different color and
yeah, I'm moving away from that. I I I
see that clearly.
And is there a place for decolorizing?
So from moving going forth from
hyperartisanship
moving away from cast from colorization
colorism to
something different to something which
is yeah a space beyond that. So I'm no
longer living according to color. I'm no
longer living according to cast. I'm no
longer living according to worldly aims
and values. And honestly, even if you're
here for the first time and you're like,
"Dude, this is a bit much. I just walked
in off the street. I saw a sign and I
was hungry and I thought you might have
some food." Um, which we do. Uh, 11:00
potluck.
Um,
but yeah, is there is there a space for
deactivism?
So yeah, so much of an activist life, an
activist mindset really is charging
yourself up. There's a a charge that
what am I going to do? And the answer is
anything. Just do it. Just do it. And
the Buddha didn't speak like that. The
Buddha was about intelligent, smart,
circumspect, thoughtful, yono manasara
or considerate, wise reflection. what
when I do it will lead to uh my
long-term welfare and happiness and the
welfare and happiness of of other
people. So just examining this and I
think anybody by choosing to come here
is even just for this hour this two
hours. Okay, I'm no longer living
according to worldly aims and values for
this hour and a half. Okay, this is a
countercultural move that you've made to
come here. You didn't have to come here.
You could have I don't know if people
watch Netflix at 9:30 in the morning,
but you could have been doing that. You
could have been sleeping. You could have
been doing
I don't even want to ask for hands of
what people might be doing, but
cartoons.
So, that's the first reflection. And how
does that uh how does that land for you?
And what might you be able to commit
commit to or be interested in committing
to? For uh monastics, we are trying to I
would love it if I could put in the
conditions to be a monastic for the rest
of my life. I think it's a beautiful
life. It's a beautiful role in the
world. So yeah, I'm no longer living to
according to worldly aims and values.
Hopefully for the rest of my life. And
if it's for you, maybe it's an hour and
a half every Saturday, maybe every other
Saturday. Maybe it's an uposetta or an
observance day which we advocate as
upasa or as people who are exploring
kind of giving your life as a lay form
to Buddhism. Uposa is kind of a holy day
that the Buddha suggested. You can
observe it on the lunar quarters or just
every Sunday or every Saturday. It's
really up to you. But finding and making
a day holy. So making a Buddhist Sabbath
for yourself. And that can be a day to
think, okay, I'm no longer living
according to worldly aims and values, at
least for today. Wouldn't that be good?
Even if you're like, actually, I kind of
like these worldly like some some
worldly aims and values are like, yeah,
it's okay. Um, yeah. And no pressure. I
mean, you're the one who define how much
or how little or whatever feels
onwardleading, open eye, whatever feels
like it's in accord with the dharma for
you and your life right now.
I am no longer living according to
worldly aims and values. My very life is
sustained through the gifts of others.
The literal words parapati bada. So my
my life is intertwined with others. So
on the monastic level when so I think
I'm the only monk here but for us it's
like super true. You know every calorie
we eat has been given to us. I've been
living at monasteries. I reached my 20-y
year anniversary on January 8th. January
8th of this year. 20 years.
Yes. Get some snaps, some sad. All
right. All right. Yeah.
20 years.
But all of that time basically being
supported by the goodness of others.
Every calorie I've eaten has been a gift
from others, but all of you as well. And
this is something that's really
important to examine. Every meal you
take, it's part of our meal reflection.
That everything you eat, you didn't grow
all of that food, you weren't the one
who brought it to the store. And really,
you're just such a small part of how
that food got into you and made you
really. So reflecting on this, my very
life is sustained through the gifts of
others. This is a world of of
interbeing.
I should strive to abandon my former
habit. This is very much true for
monastics. We've put on the robe. We're
wearing a Buddhist flag. And this this
morning, I thought the idea of going
forth might be, as I've said, a bit too
much. So, I was thinking, why are we not
why is this not a cult? And why am I not
a cult leader? And I came up with four
reasons. Four reasons why I am not a
cult leader.
And therefore, by extension, why you're
not in a cult. Uh, so I'm not a cult
leader. One, cult leaders long hair. We
no hair.
Cult leaders have a lot of sex.
We have zero.
None. Less than none.
Cult leaders do a lot of drugs.
Zero. Again, zero. None of that. We
don't do it ourselves. Don't make other
people do it. And money. We don't own
money. We don't touch money. And that's
for real. So if we're a cult, it's like
the wackest, weakest, like leave anytime
you want. Like the doors are unlocked,
you know. So um yeah, but for us, you
know, we're I'm wearing the Buddhist
flag. So I've committed to living by all
the rules. We have 20 227 major rules
and a bunch we have rules on top of
rules on top of that. Uh but for all of
you, yeah, what might it mean? This my
literally my conduct should be
otherwise. So if you're taking on this
lay form, if you're if you've got a hat
that's got a picture of the Buddha on it
or you're somehow telegraphing your your
Buddhism in different ways, you're
telling your friends, I'm a Buddhist,
then you should act like a Buddhist. And
a Buddhist is someone who uh speaks in
ways which are harmless, gentle,
skillful. They act in ways which are
harmless, skillful, beneficial. And they
think and conduct their mind in ways
which are harmless and beneficial. So
purifying body, speech, and mind. That's
what you're trying to do as Buddhists or
hopefully just as people. You know, this
is one of going forth from bad habits
and going forth to good habits.
Next is does regret over my conduct
arise in my mind going forth from an
amoralism or for ju for a
just a yeah non-specific
sense of integrity. You just don't
really know what your your principles
are. You don't know where your bright
lines are. Okay. Would you steal from
someone? Would you ever lie? Uh would
you uh take intoxicants? would you
commit sexual misconduct? Like where are
your your bright lines? Um,
so it's it's very clear from anastics,
but hopefully it's more and more clear
for you in a a Buddhist context. There's
what's called the five precepts.
Undertaking the precept to refrain from
taking the life of any living creature,
from taking that which has not been
given, from sexual misconduct, from
lying, and from intoxicants.
Um, and then at the end of the day, this
is moving from going forth from
amorality or moral confusion into a
realistic consequentialism. There are
fruit and results of our actions. You
know, even if I don't see them, even if
I'm blind to how my sexual misconduct or
my lies affect the world, there are real
world consequences to this. And
Buddhism, you know, when you meditate,
as I saying, you can keep your eyes
closed or half open or whatever. But
when you're awake and moving about in
the world, it's good to have your eyes
open both before doing an action, while
you're doing an action, and afterwards
to be able to look back. And what this
reflection is training you for is going
forth from regret, going forth from
remorse. Because if you don't if you
know what your principles are and you
don't break them, then at the end of the
day, you can look back and be like,
"Yep, good day.
Didn't do anything that I regret." You
can look back and just feel good about
your day, which unfortunately is not the
case for a lot of people. A lot of
people don't know what their principles
are and don't clearly see how they uh
bring um grief into the world. And then
when they try to go to sleep, they
can't. There's insomnia because just
constant mulling over their thoughts.
And there is definitely a place for
learning how to step out of unskillful
rumination. Like you don't there is a
western fetishization of remorse. Like
if I just beat myself up about the bad
things that I did long enough, then I'll
get over it. But in Buddhism, you know,
it really is just about clear seeing and
then dropping part of um the upasca
program or stepping into certainly a
monastic life is this opening ourselves
up for lack of a better word confession.
We do it every two weeks or more often
with a monastic brother or sister and
just okay here's this past two weeks I
actually did um exaggerate or I I you
know spoke uh yeah spoke in a way that I
regret and I can tell that to somebody
and hopefully in a group like this you
can find somebody who you can open
yourself up to and it's a a great
skillful means that read leads right
into the next one. Could my spiritual
companions find fault with my conduct?
And these are wise people. Hopefully we
are more and more surrounding ourselves
with good people whose sense of morality
and integrity we trust. And yeah, Ajan
Nisbo gave me some feedback two days
ago. What was it?
What was it? We we have a skillful
means. So sometimes even as monks, we
want to get better at receiving
feedback. A very good virtue of
basically a Buddhist is being one being
easy to speak to, easy to admonish, easy
to give feedback to. The word is suva.
It's just one word very short being easy
to give feedback to. And it is beautiful
uh because this is how we learn because
we all have blind spots. And if you make
yourself hard to give feedback to when
the other person, your boss or your
friend or your partner or your kid,
whatever it is, they give you feedback
and you're like, "Uh uhuh, I'm the one
who gives feedback. You're the one who
gets feedback." Or you you push back.
There's so many ways that we are bad at
giving feedback to, but softening. So
Ajanispo, one of our skillful means is
like a sticky note. Ajanispipo said,
"Ajang, can I give you some feedback as
a sticky note?" And I said, "Yes." And
then he told me the feedback and
whatever it was, it was great. It was
great. And I could take it as a sticky
note. He he leaves it there and then I
can pick it up and let all of the
emotional reaction like chill in the
background cuz there was some stuff. I'm
like, I'm senior to you and I'm taller
than you and
and all this other stuff like whatever,
you know, silly emotions we have as
people. It's like you're talking to me.
We're doing this together.
But all of that can okay sticky note. He
says it to me. I don't want to hear it.
But like I can respond to him. I can
wait half an hour, wait a day, and then
okay, have the moral sanity. Okay, I was
temporarily insane for those 20 minutes
that you wanted to give me feedback. But
20 minutes later, it's like, oh yeah,
good point. Yeah, I do do that. That's
annoying. So So
we got a lot of other reflections. Five
more for uh reflection for those who
have gone forth. But that's about the
time we have for today. But hopefully
all of you have been memorizing these.
And if not, you've got the chanting
book. It's free online. You can memorize
it and explore these things because I
think both the concept of a pabitta
going forth. Yeah. Going forth from this
place of non-choice and non-awareness to
a place of awareness and choice to a
place of Yeah. choosing how we interact
with others, choosing how we separate
and step take a step back, how we do our
activism or how we de activate ourselves
and the the situations around us. So,
some really cool reflections in here and
uh we'll be curious either now or in
future weeks if anybody does take this
on. So, but I'll just end with that and
we can go to to questions.
All right. So, um I think Ryan's got the
mic. If anybody would like to share, if
you could raise your hand and then uh if
you are willing to stand up, I think
people can hear you a little bit more.
And if anybody on Zoom has thoughts or
questions and if anybody does have other
personal reflections about that going
forth and how that might be meaningful
for one or if you're like actually I
still don't get it and it's still not
meaningful then feel free to share that
too.
>> Thank you very much for the talk and the
meditation.
So I have a question that I don't mean
to be critical um or judgmental
and it's a question that comes up
sometimes um that I'm just curious to
know how you would answer it. So it's
the idea of giving up worldly affairs.
And if everyone gave up worldly affairs,
the world would not go on. And what I
mean by that, if if everybody gave up
money and sex, you know, things wouldn't
go on. And so the idea of going off to a
forest, and I know that that some people
say this about Terravvada Buddhism,
going off to a forest and not touching
money and not having sex and and um and
all those, you know, great ways of
disciplinary uh listen living and yet we
need people to touch money and develop
technology and and uh procreate. So just
how that's a question that I that I
wonder how you would answer that as as a
ter monk.
>> Yeah. Thank you. And uh it's pretty much
just Ajan Nisso who I push back against.
So I very much appreciate I didn't feel
at all was uh confront. So um yeah. No,
and just on a technical point and I'd
love if somebody could fact check me.
might be possible uh to give up
procreation if there were just women and
maybe there could be some Yeah, I don't
know. I don't know. I don't know about
that. I don't know. But uh that's not
what I'm advocating. Um and honestly,
it's always it always has been and it
always will be an extreme minority of
people who choose to uh go forth in this
very formal Buddhist way to become like
celibate. Um, and yet the Buddha didn't
at all try to, you know, push that. The
Buddha wasn't like a monastic uh
activist. You know, he wasn't trying to
make everybody convert to be be
monastics. And that basis of uh lay
Buddhist morality being the five
precepts of refraining from sexual
misconduct is is just totally fantastic
um and a great place to start. So um
yeah I think Ajan Cha uh was visiting
Ladawan's house um probably 40 years
ago. He's kind of our teachers teacher
and uh there was a a Thai man who had
been living in America for some number
of years and he kind of you wouldn't
find this in in Thailand but he kind of
confronted Ajancha and made the same
argument said the same thing you did.
He's like if everybody you know became a
monk then the world would end you know
there would be no more babies and the
world would end we need what would
happen and the Buddha or Ajancha said uh
that's kind of like an earthworm being
afraid that they might run out of dirt.
And yeah and Ajan Cha could say it so
much better. Ajancha could say it so
much better. Um but yeah, no, you make a
very good point. Like a extreme minority
of people would choose to do this and
that's totally fine. Um so yeah, living
the best life that you can, the most
ethical um within boundaries, clear
boundaries that you and your partner or
you Yeah. and you and your um yeah,
agreed upon morality is great. Um
and
yeah, I think that is just I don't I
don't think anything else needs to be
said. It's very good point. Yeah, thank
you for for bringing that up.
>> We have uh one Phipe on Zoom. Let's go
Phipe.
>> Thank you Ajan. Thank you community.
So my question is um actually kind of
related to the last one. So I was just
reading the sutas and they were talking
about the Janas and the venerable Maha
Moalana
was saying that the first Janna it's
when a mendicant
uh and then goes goes on to to describe
the first Janna. So my question is what
type of going forth is needed for these
absorptions to take place?
Yeah, thank you Juan Phipe and great
question. I mean going forth could be a
great euphemism or a great just synonym
for Janna practice. Janna is very deep
uh immersion or absorption concentration
and um yeah that translation is the
common one you'll see when I think we've
got it in here in the noble eight-fold
path defining uh right concentration it
does frame things as winnind or winiku
um but that really is a placeholder lay
holders householders lay people can
definitely achieve Janna lay people can
definitely achieve Janna
and it does require going forth. It
requires the first the definition of the
first Janna is quite secluded from
sensuality, secluded from unh wholesome
states like you really do have to it's a
quite a radical going forth actually and
whether you put on the the robes um it
does require you to physically you know
to physically separate yourself for uh
depending on your conditions. Janna is
difficult. It's very difficult for most
people. Uh some people might have
different conditions. Maybe past life
you've been practicing it a lot. Um but
most people find it very difficult. So
even people who find it easy also need
supportive conditions. So going forth.
Okay. So so for myself I mentioned I'm
going to be going on a 10-day retreat
inside of this three-month retreat, you
know, to get even more seclusion on top
of seclusion. seclusion underneath
seclusion and to go deeper and deeper
and that there is a huge place for that
in Buddhism. Buddhism, yes, Buddhism is
about fully meeting the present moment.
Buddhism is about fully meeting the
present moment.
And Buddhism is also about being able to
meet the present moment like with wisdom
and with stillness. And the Buddha did
give full allowance certainly for
monastics to have periods of retreat but
would advocate also lay people. One of
the trainings in that book thus you
should train yourselves is even for layh
holders we will train our minds uh from
from time to time or by and by we will
train the mind in the bliss of
seclusion. So actually taking time for
retreat whether that's a half day. Uh
Allison will be organizing another
half-day retreat on February 22nd. Um
we'll have other occasions to have full
day retreats. Uh there are these Ginka
retreats which cost no money. Uh our 10
days long. Uh BIMS has retreats. Seattle
Insight has retreats. Uh I Anandod
there's retreats at Spirit Rock all over
the place online. We have seven hours a
I think I mentioned that at the
beginning. Seven hours a day of group
meditation.
But you do, you know, if you want to uh
experience that bliss of seclusion, uh
that is a real thing. That is a real
thing. And
yet you kind of if you haven't, if I say
that word, the bliss of seclusion, the
bliss that's free from unh wholesome
mental states, free from sensuality.
Uh if I say that and you're like, "Oh
yeah, actually I have I have tasted
that. I've stated that on retreat or for
whatever reason I that just came upon me
the grace by whatever grace I was able
to experience the bliss of seclusion the
bliss free from unh wholesome mental
states free from sensuality if I say
that and you're like oh yes I know that
and that's fabulous and there are ways
to train the mind it's not full grace
bestowed on you by someone else you can
put in the causes and conditions you can
train in Janna you can train at putting
in the conditions to allow the mind to
experience that stillness. And if you're
like, actually, I don't know what you're
talking about. The bliss of seclusion,
seclusion just seems painful. I sit and
watch my breath for 5 minutes, and it's
horrible. There's nothing blissful about
it. There's nothing pleasant about it.
It's definitely secluded from
sensuality, but it is full of unh
wholesome mental states. And
unfortunately for a lot of us, you do
have to go through that. you have to be
able to learn how to ride the waves to
be able to stand up on the the board
which is rather analogous to to Janna.
Um so yeah taking the time but that word
mendicants or bikus anywhere in here
anywhere in the sutas for the most part
for the most part that you find it uh is
referring to any deep practitioner. The
Buddha would often use this word to
refer not just to the monks. It is a
male noun in Pali. Poly has genders. It
is a male noun. But it would al it was
inclusive of the bikunis inclusive of
any lay men, lay women, lay people,
anybody who is there. Is just being a
way to say like, "Hey guys, hey serious
practitioners, listen up." So yeah, not
at all. you can practice Janna and if
you're inclined towards it, take the
time to put in those conditions and um
yeah, make make the time if you can.
>> Um sure.
Um
this is Scott. I have a a comment. I was
really touched by the talk. This is one
of our favorite chants. And we do,
Lindsay and I reflect on going forth a
lot since we spent a good amount of time
around monastics and temple New
Hampshire and we use it as a model and
try to understand how to live into that
more and more in our own lives. And I'm
realizing from um your talk Ajen that
I've framed it often in terms of things
we need to do to change in our lives to
somehow approximate better conditions.
So there's quite a bit of aversion and
clinging that can come into my mind
around wanting to break down things that
somehow seem like obstructions of
conditions like having to make a living
or look after a home or uh lots of
things. And the what your talk really
brought home to me the the first part of
it about what has to be moved from or
let go actually to me seems just
personally more important because
whatever we're going towards those are
forms and they're useful but they're
going to be different for each person
and ultimately as I understand it we
need to drop those anyway like they're
very important to hold as long as we
need to. But the piece about
renunciation
to me, what is it that we need to let
go? Seems so central. That was the word
that came to mind for me when we were
sharing our associations to the chant.
And the phrase is nama is renunciation.
And so that feels very freeing to me
because I love renunci practice. I think
I might be too attached to it sometimes
but and so sort of less alleviating the
pressure of like yeah but how do we do
this and how I mean it doesn't matter
ultimately the conditions at least
according to what I understand from the
Buddha from Ajancha going down the line
the this work can be done under any
conditions and in fact that's the full
realization of the potential of the
Buddhist teaching so not to say at the
same time I have so much admiration for
the monastic form and I I'm prone to
think it's the best form for really
directly if I could just I don't know
the time I get I just want to share one
story and then I'll quit that's from
Ajanando at the monastery uh in temple
he told us he said monastics it's like
there's a mountain there and most people
don't even see there's a mountain to
climb and they're just kind of wandering
around and then some people start to see
there's a mountain to climb you know
which is something about sort ort of
confronting the self in a way and
ultimately letting go, however you want
to say it. And he said the monastics,
they just put on their packs. They
they're carrying very little and they go
straight up the mountain. And then he
said for people like you maybe, you
know, lay people, you may be going round
and around. You're going up, but you
sort of stop to sightsee and you're
carrying a lot more in your back because
you can't drop all that stuff. We don't
have the support to do that, but you're
still that's what you're doing in a way.
And I just it made me think of that.
Thank you.
>> Nice. Thank you, Scott.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. More reasons to talk with Scott
and Lindsay. Yeah. People who've
actually tried to live this or
understand this suta, be inspired by the
suta in a lay form. That's fantastic.
And I think you point to a really
important aspect of going forth, which
is the present moment choice. uh just
before this gathering we were talking
about one of the um sutas where the
Buddha talks about the results of
suffering. So suffering can either lead
to confusion or it can lead to search or
in a different suta the Buddha says
suffering can lead to more suffering or
faith. So this is like a present- moment
decision. Like if we're encountering
suffering, we can become more confused
by it. Go in the direction of more
suffering or go in this direction of
going forth of search of clarity and and
faith. Faith in you non- greed, non-
anger, non-d delusion. So very much I
think that's at the heart of this. It's
very practical. It can be for those who
might be inclined towards it be a path
towards robes or some more outward
renunciation. But yeah, can I go forth
from my my bad habits and whatever it is
I'm holding on to in the moment that's
not helpful? Yeah, thank you.
Got time for one or two more questions?
Yeah, Trenton.
Uh something that uh I reflected on that
I guess I found helpful was kind of the
idea of like uh the conceit that I'm
worse than others and seeing that as a
uh worldly value. Uh kind of making that
connection. And I think that's something
to me that kind of led to like a nice
I don't know like release or something
maybe. So that's just something that I
found helpful like kind of seeing it
like that.
>> Yeah. Thank you Trenton. Trinton's
pointing to something which is yet in
Buddhism conceit. The word mana doesn't
just refer to like thinking that you're
better than somebody, but it's any kind
of conceiving of self such that you
might think I'm better than or I'm the
same, I'm equal to somebody or I'm less
than or worse than somebody. These three
types are all conceit. So yeah, I'm glad
that that reflection kind of uh gives
some insight into that trend. Thank you,
>> Jen.
So I straddle to learn teachings between
Mahayana and Terravada and I know in
Mahayana there is uh engaged Buddhism
and I I don't necessarily look it as
activism but I wanted to see if you had
any thoughts on like Tiknahan would say
don't do a march for peace be peace or
Martin Luther King would you know he'd
say before you're going out to march you
really have to purify yourself so can
Can you speak to how those relate or
don't?
>> Yeah. No, thank you very much. And I
think the the idea of engaged Buddhism
for me, it was it was huge when I was
first becoming interested in Buddhism,
but I still find it very compelling and
and interesting. And I think it's um
yeah, big domador for people especially
who come to Buddhism through Tiknanhan,
the Vietnamese tradition, but also the
Daly Lama, Mahayana in general. um this
kind of bigger view. And there's so many
different ways to make your Buddhism
engaged or to engage with with Buddhism.
And I think it'll be different. It'll
look different for everybody. And I
really was trying to continue before I
became a monk, really trying to continue
activism in a certain way. And I think I
just saw that like there's so much jerk,
you know, still like deeply embedded
that um I I found it hard to um yet
learning how to speak passionately but
with compassion.
Maybe take that as a co-en. How can you
act
with compassion?
passionately um compassion for yourself
and compassion for the other person. So
maybe just Yeah, Suzite
and the teacher knew exactly what was
going on in my mind beforehand. As I
woke up this morning and I started
thinking of more about the commitment
that um comes from knowing that
happiness is an inside job and it's not
dependent on externals
and so the the um giving up worldly the
the worldly values and stuff. I am a a
lay person and a business person and um
part of a community and um
my what I said earlier about going forth
for me means bringing the dharma along
on all of that and um that's the way
that that particular phrase that we were
chanting the first one um it's not to
give it up, it's to
embody it with the dharma
somehow. Um, I mean, I kind of struggle
I struggle is the wrong word. I work
with it. It's a it's a very alive part
of my practice and it it feels like um
I'm not giving up the the sensual
pleasures, the being part of the world.
I am part of the world.
you know, and I'm part of the four-fold
SA and um so I just I'd love for you to
talk uh some about that.
>> Yeah. Thank you, Suz. Suz is a teacher
at Seattle Insight Meditation and uh I
listened to your talk where you
mentioned that you used to want to be a
spy. You learned Russian so you could be
a spy and I'm so glad you became a dama
teacher rather than a spy.
>> It's kind of like a
>> trench coat. That's our That's good.
It's good. Good. I'm glad it wasn't the
lying. That's great. Um,
yeah. No, there's definitely a place and
there was from the time of the Buddha.
Um, for yeah, it's a small fraction of
people who will become monastics,
bikunes and everybody else will
hopefully yeah be finding ways to live
the the dharma in whatever forms you
take. So yeah, we we really have to uh
appreciate that as monastics. One of the
cool things about this form is that we
have so many mirrors. Like we're wearing
a mirror like every time we put on the
robes and pretty much we never take them
off. You know, we sleep in a version of
this robe. Um yeah, we're wearing them
all the time. And every as I mentioned,
every bite that we take is basically a
gift. And in one sense, you know, the
Buddha did say like for monastics, we're
kind of in debt, you know, until we
reach stream entry or become uh
enlightened, we're in debt in a sense,
and we really need to be reflecting on
our the ways that we're living. Um, so
yeah, there's that added kind of uh
outward forcing function. Um, but yeah,
I'm glad I'm so happy people find ways
to to live it. Seattle Insight, for
those of you who don't know, is a um a
Buddhist meditation which preceded a
meditation center which preceded Clear
Mountain by decades. And most or pretty
much all of the teachers that teach
regularly through Seattle Insight are
lay teachers who can speak more to um
yeah being married and having kids and
trench coats. We don't do that. Um and
that whole spectrum. So you can go
online for Seattle insight meditation
and I think there are a lot of these
reflections you know which seems like it
might be only for monastics. It is a
deep practice and it's deep for a reason
because it it does cross through all
these different currents. So yeah, thank
you Sus.