Fixing our bodies with glass

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Physics

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World. Hello and welcome to the Physics World

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Stories podcast.

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I'm Andrew Lester, and this year is the

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international year of glass. And June's Physics World

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Magazine

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is a special issue relating to the science

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and technology

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of glass.

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So it will become as no surprise to

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you to learn that this episode of the

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Physics World Stories podcast

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is all about glass, and for the most

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part, about the uses of glass technology

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in healthcare.

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For many of us, we might not think

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of glass beyond windows and the things that

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we drink out of, but the International Year

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of Glass is there to make us think

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about it a bit more deeply. Think fiber

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optics, mobile phone screens, solar cells.

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When the Physics World magazine is full this

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month of some fascinating

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features and articles.

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Not least one by James Dacey,

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a journalist who, well, to be perfectly honest,

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without whom this podcast would just sit on

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my computer, which I'll remind you to look

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at at the end of this podcast.

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But first, here's Julian Jones,

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professor of biomaterials

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in the department of materials

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at Imperial College London.

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Yeah. Bioglass is a special type of glass.

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And it's special because when you put it

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in the body it sort of has special

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powers. And that it starts to dissolve and

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actually tells cells to get active

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and produce new bone.

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You put glass into the body

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and it speaks to your body and tells

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the bones what to do. That's not what

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I thought glass did. It's more like it

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sends out signals and the signals are quite

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simple actually. They're just ions

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that are naturally found in the body. So,

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but if you put,

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window glass in the body, assuming it was

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clean,

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the body would see it as a foreign

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object and it would isolate it and start

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to push it out.

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And just like if it was a splinter

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that

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if you have a splinter that doesn't get

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infected it will push itself out. A few

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years ago

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all bio materials were designed

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or chosen in order to have the minimal

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reaction from the body as possible.

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So people were choosing

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things like metals that were as corrosion resistant

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as possible

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like titanium or or even stainless steel. But

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when you put those sort of nearly inert

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materials in the body, they get isolated by

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scar tissue and sealed off from the rest

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of the body and eventually forced out. So

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bioglass

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was invented

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in order to form a bond

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to the host tissue.

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So it's interesting story actually.

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The the person who invented it was called

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Larry Hench.

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And he was on

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a a at a conference as academics are

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sometimes.

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And he he got on the bus to

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the conference dinner, and there was one seat

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available and he sat down and started talking

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to the,

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to the person there. And he was an

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army major, just come back from Vietnam.

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He started talking to him. He thought, well,

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this is no time like the present to

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try and

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promote his research and try and get some

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money out of the US army because that's

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where all the funds were in the US

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back then for research.

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So he started

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talking about his work on electroceramics,

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which were for radiation protection

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and things like that. And the major actually

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stopped him and said look I've just come

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back from Vietnam.

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I've heard enough of,

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of things like this.

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I've just seen

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situations where we we have casualties in the

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field

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and while away from hospitals and while we

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can save their lives we can't save their

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limbs. You're talking about these materials for extreme

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environments. Can't you design one that will

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survive in the body?

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And what he meant by that was, you

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know, not be rejected.

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So Harry Hensch took that as a challenge.

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He went back to his lab and he

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came up with biogloss.

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It seems a bit of a funny thing

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to come up with, bearing your mind. You

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don't think about putting glass

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in your body in order to fix bones.

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But he was thinking of the idea of

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something that can deliver

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lots of calcium

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and some phosphate

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which is what our bone minerals are made

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up with.

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And it just so turned out that,

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this bioglass, when it goes in the body,

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it does release

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calcium. It does release some phosphate.

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And

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they combine together to form

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natural bone mineral,

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And that's the way the body sort of

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sees it as part of it, part of

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the body rather than as a foreign object.

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So that's the reason it bonds to bone

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and that

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that this actual sort of telling the cells

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what to do

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is more about

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just these ions as they're coming out. So

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the silica that comes out and the calcium.

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They they tell the bone cells to get

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active and produce new bone. How did he

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make it? How do you make it? You

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make it just like

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how you would window glass, where you would

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take some clean sand,

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you take some,

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sodium carbonate, you take some calcium carbonate, some

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phosphate, and you mix these powders together. And

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you just melt them down,

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the temperature of lava and you pour it

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out into some water and you get a

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glass frit which you grind into

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into particles.

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And that's exactly how it's used

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most commonly in clinical use. It's just a

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white powder

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that the surgeon will take and mix with

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blood of a bone defect and press it

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back into the defect. So it's literally a

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granular glass powder.

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The the surgeon would take a little sachet

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a bit like a one of those UHT

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milk sachets,

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open it up and use the powder. They

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probably mix some blood from the patient into

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the sachet,

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stir it up with a

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with a spatula

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and then literally push it into the hole

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in bone

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and it'll start doing its stuff, start dissolving.

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The bone will start growing between the particles

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because it's, it starts dissolving and starts biodegrading

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it. It'll it'll go

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within a certain period of time depending how

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it's used usually within a year. Okay. I

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mean you think about how,

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you know a bone fracture fixes itself usually

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within 6 weeks but no you wouldn't use

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those for regular bone fractures is when you've

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got big holes.

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They need a bit more time to repair.

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They need a framework to grow around. So,

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yeah, they they degrade over time gradually. But,

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over about a year is about right. Is

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there a reason why it's glass rather than

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rubber or plastic or something?

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No. That's a good question. The reason it

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works well as a in the form of

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a glass now

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is because

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the glass network,

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the silicon network makes up glass,

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is great in that

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and the ions like calcium

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just sit in the glass network. And so

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as the glass starts to dissolve it releases

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the ions in in kind of in their

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pure form. Whereas if you

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took let's say you took a, a compound

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containing calcium,

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then there'd be other things attached to it.

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I mean, calcium chloride or calcium carbonate or

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you know, you haven't got sort of the

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just the calcium ions on its own. So

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the benefit of the glass is as it

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dissolves, it releases the ions without anything else

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attached to them. And the glass dissolves at

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quite a useful rate. You can you can

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decide how fast it degrees, but the original

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bioglass is already pretty good in that sort

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of releasing these ions over time. So it

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sort of continually feeds the cells as they're

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doing their repairing. How do you design

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the rate at which it dissolves? Well, actually,

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the one that's used most widely right now

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is the one that Larry Hent invented right

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in his lab on on the first day

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of trying.

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But you can change the the rate

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of release of the ions and there's different

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ways of doing that. You just can't change

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the composition.

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The beauty of a glass over something like

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a ceramic is that you can have almost

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any amount of silica and any amount of

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calcium in there just by what you mix

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together in the first place. But, but you

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can do other things as well as just

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changing the particle size

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changes the the rate it degrades. Obviously, the

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original

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conversation was about

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battlefields. Is it something that's that transportable? Could

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it be taken into

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war zones?

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Yeah. It can go anywhere. It's just, you

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know, a glass is pretty stable and,

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until you get it wet in this case.

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So as long as it stays dry in

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its little container

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then, yeah, it's got a great shelf life

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and go anywhere.

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I mean you you find it while it

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was originally designed for

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fixing

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patients

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and

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and military personnel, it's now you can find

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it in tubes of toothpaste

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because it dissolves and releases as calcium and

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phosphate and triggers mineralization.

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Is it I mean, your teeth are made

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of exactly the same stuff that bone's made

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of. So if you you tap your teeth

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that's a that is

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a calcium phosphate

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mineral.

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It's actually more mineral on your teeth than

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there is in the bones.

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But the reason you have sensitive teeth

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would be because you've got ways in which

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the hot cold or whatever it is can

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reach your

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nerve cavities, which are underneath the enamel or

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in usually the tubules in the dentine underneath

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that go into your nerve cavity.

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So if you, if you brush your teeth

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with biogloss then releases calcium phosphate and mineralises

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the teeth with natural,

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natural mineral that's normally there on your teeth.

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You brush your teeth in the toothpaste containing

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biogloss and out comes the calcium, out comes

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the phosphate, and and you get mineralization. So

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that biogloss in toothpaste is certainly only in

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a couple of brands. And not too long

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ago, I broke my leg. There was no

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00:09:37,049 --> 00:09:39,690
mention of BioGlast then. I wondered how commonly

279
00:09:39,690 --> 00:09:42,570
it's used in health care. Hospitals have access

280
00:09:42,570 --> 00:09:43,230
to it.

281
00:09:44,009 --> 00:09:45,629
It's not hugely

282
00:09:46,009 --> 00:09:47,629
widely used in the UK.

283
00:09:48,570 --> 00:09:50,190
It's used a lot in the US.

284
00:09:50,649 --> 00:09:51,149
And

285
00:09:51,875 --> 00:09:55,014
and actually Finland has a huge activity in

286
00:09:55,154 --> 00:09:57,315
in treating patients with biogloss. And they've had

287
00:09:57,315 --> 00:09:58,134
huge success

288
00:09:58,595 --> 00:10:00,615
in a really important area which is

289
00:10:01,394 --> 00:10:03,095
where you've got deep bone infections.

290
00:10:03,634 --> 00:10:04,695
So it's called osteomyelitis

291
00:10:05,235 --> 00:10:07,699
which is where you have bone infections sort

292
00:10:07,699 --> 00:10:08,839
of in the marrow cavity.

293
00:10:09,940 --> 00:10:13,639
And sometimes that doesn't respond to the antibiotics

294
00:10:13,779 --> 00:10:15,620
we have available. So it's a very well

295
00:10:15,620 --> 00:10:18,360
known problem. It's antimicrobial resistance.

296
00:10:19,565 --> 00:10:20,065
So,

297
00:10:20,445 --> 00:10:22,044
so what they did is they actually took

298
00:10:22,044 --> 00:10:24,365
the bioglass and they they packed it into

299
00:10:24,365 --> 00:10:26,304
the into these bone defects

300
00:10:26,684 --> 00:10:27,745
where there was infection.

301
00:10:28,445 --> 00:10:29,985
And the infection went away.

302
00:10:30,605 --> 00:10:31,664
They they did

303
00:10:32,129 --> 00:10:34,370
continue to administer antibiotics but these are things

304
00:10:34,370 --> 00:10:35,190
that were

305
00:10:35,570 --> 00:10:37,330
not going away under the usual course of

306
00:10:37,330 --> 00:10:39,170
antibiotics. When you add bioglass into the mix

307
00:10:39,170 --> 00:10:39,830
it did.

308
00:10:40,529 --> 00:10:43,009
So why is that the UK not using

309
00:10:43,009 --> 00:10:43,509
this?

310
00:10:44,290 --> 00:10:46,290
I mean there are people in the UK

311
00:10:46,290 --> 00:10:47,029
using it,

312
00:10:47,834 --> 00:10:49,615
using the the conventional bioglass.

313
00:10:51,195 --> 00:10:53,695
As to why it's not used more

314
00:10:54,475 --> 00:10:56,634
you could say well the short story is

315
00:10:56,634 --> 00:10:58,574
probably related to NHS purchasing.

316
00:10:59,610 --> 00:11:02,169
The longer story goes back to the beginning

317
00:11:02,169 --> 00:11:04,429
of when they started to commercialise BioGlas

318
00:11:04,889 --> 00:11:06,029
and the fact that

319
00:11:06,730 --> 00:11:08,730
it wasn't a great business success right at

320
00:11:08,730 --> 00:11:09,309
the beginning.

321
00:11:09,690 --> 00:11:10,589
They kind of

322
00:11:11,049 --> 00:11:12,269
missed a few tricks

323
00:11:12,654 --> 00:11:15,615
and the company that was first founded and

324
00:11:15,615 --> 00:11:19,054
so things like other calcium phosphate ceramics started

325
00:11:19,054 --> 00:11:20,995
getting momentum in the market

326
00:11:21,615 --> 00:11:24,575
before BioGloss got a foothold. Even though the

327
00:11:24,575 --> 00:11:26,970
first studies on BioGloss are done first and

328
00:11:27,049 --> 00:11:28,110
and it's been proven

329
00:11:28,569 --> 00:11:30,730
to work better later on. There's doubtless a

330
00:11:30,730 --> 00:11:32,970
whole other podcast about how finance gets in

331
00:11:32,970 --> 00:11:34,809
the way of health care. But let's get

332
00:11:34,809 --> 00:11:37,209
back to the applications of bioglass. Well, the

333
00:11:37,209 --> 00:11:39,049
really exciting one is there's a new product

334
00:11:39,049 --> 00:11:40,669
just been released in the US

335
00:11:41,044 --> 00:11:41,544
which

336
00:11:42,084 --> 00:11:43,865
is in the form of cotton wool.

337
00:11:44,245 --> 00:11:45,845
Right? I mean it's glass but it looks

338
00:11:45,845 --> 00:11:46,745
like cotton wool.

339
00:11:47,444 --> 00:11:48,584
So it's a very

340
00:11:49,044 --> 00:11:50,584
highly fast dissolving

341
00:11:51,605 --> 00:11:52,504
glass wall

342
00:11:53,044 --> 00:11:53,544
and

343
00:11:54,004 --> 00:11:56,504
it's for diabetic foot ulcers.

344
00:11:57,269 --> 00:11:59,429
So or chronic wounds. And these are wounds

345
00:11:59,429 --> 00:12:00,409
that don't heal

346
00:12:01,029 --> 00:12:02,490
under usual treatment.

347
00:12:02,870 --> 00:12:05,269
And they've had patients where they haven't they've

348
00:12:05,269 --> 00:12:06,870
had these wounds open for more than a

349
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:07,370
year.

350
00:12:07,830 --> 00:12:10,230
And they've even started getting infected and things

351
00:12:10,230 --> 00:12:11,190
like that. And,

352
00:12:11,855 --> 00:12:13,295
so what they do is they put they

353
00:12:13,295 --> 00:12:15,715
sort of pack this cotton wool bioglass

354
00:12:16,415 --> 00:12:17,955
into the hole of the patient,

355
00:12:18,415 --> 00:12:20,654
into the wound, then put the dressing over

356
00:12:20,654 --> 00:12:22,815
the top. And then 3 days later they

357
00:12:22,815 --> 00:12:25,170
take the dressing off and the glasses dissolved.

358
00:12:25,170 --> 00:12:26,529
They put a new new bit in and

359
00:12:26,529 --> 00:12:28,149
put another dressing back on.

360
00:12:28,529 --> 00:12:31,410
And within weeks it, the the wounds were

361
00:12:31,410 --> 00:12:32,769
healed. They even,

362
00:12:33,410 --> 00:12:34,710
they even managed to

363
00:12:35,410 --> 00:12:35,910
heal

364
00:12:36,850 --> 00:12:39,009
a racehorse that had a massive gash across

365
00:12:39,009 --> 00:12:39,670
his chest

366
00:12:40,345 --> 00:12:41,705
that they were about to put down and

367
00:12:41,705 --> 00:12:43,325
they thought no hang on let's try it.

368
00:12:43,784 --> 00:12:45,644
Wow. Let's try this first.

369
00:12:46,184 --> 00:12:47,945
So that's quite a thing, that's quite a

370
00:12:47,945 --> 00:12:50,184
thing. So what's your involvement in it? What

371
00:12:50,184 --> 00:12:52,105
are you doing with it? I started working

372
00:12:52,105 --> 00:12:53,784
with Larry Hench actually and he gave me

373
00:12:53,784 --> 00:12:54,445
the mission

374
00:12:55,629 --> 00:12:57,409
to create the 1st porous

375
00:12:58,190 --> 00:12:59,330
bioglass scaffold

376
00:12:59,710 --> 00:13:01,809
for bone regeneration. So it was

377
00:13:02,190 --> 00:13:04,110
a instead of having this powder what surgeons

378
00:13:04,110 --> 00:13:06,269
really want is a a sort of framework,

379
00:13:06,269 --> 00:13:09,070
a three-dimensional framework that the cells can go

380
00:13:09,070 --> 00:13:09,570
into

381
00:13:10,134 --> 00:13:12,054
and attach to and start laying down the

382
00:13:12,054 --> 00:13:14,134
building blocks of of the bone and then

383
00:13:14,134 --> 00:13:15,595
it biodegrades over time.

384
00:13:16,134 --> 00:13:18,054
So we successfully did that but the

385
00:13:19,014 --> 00:13:20,634
the medical device companies

386
00:13:21,254 --> 00:13:23,414
weren't so interested. They didn't feel it gave

387
00:13:23,414 --> 00:13:24,554
enough of a

388
00:13:25,199 --> 00:13:26,179
of a commercial

389
00:13:26,959 --> 00:13:29,220
jump over just having regular butt glass.

390
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,199
So the surgeons wanted it but the the

391
00:13:33,199 --> 00:13:35,039
sort of amount it would have cost to

392
00:13:35,039 --> 00:13:36,179
get it to product,

393
00:13:36,639 --> 00:13:38,720
the companies didn't think it was worth doing.

394
00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:39,220
So

395
00:13:40,605 --> 00:13:42,764
so then I realized right okay well we

396
00:13:42,764 --> 00:13:43,504
need something

397
00:13:44,524 --> 00:13:46,625
that's gonna be even more revolutionary

398
00:13:46,925 --> 00:13:47,665
than that.

399
00:13:48,285 --> 00:13:48,785
So,

400
00:13:50,045 --> 00:13:52,365
started working on this idea of bouncy by

401
00:13:52,365 --> 00:13:52,945
a glass.

402
00:13:53,965 --> 00:13:54,465
So

403
00:13:55,529 --> 00:13:58,509
there's nothing currently available to surgeons now

404
00:13:59,129 --> 00:14:00,990
that can share load

405
00:14:01,610 --> 00:14:03,610
with the host tissue. So there's no sort

406
00:14:03,610 --> 00:14:05,610
of scaffolding or anything that they can put

407
00:14:05,610 --> 00:14:06,110
in

408
00:14:06,490 --> 00:14:07,629
that will take

409
00:14:08,090 --> 00:14:10,004
or share load with the host bone.

410
00:14:10,565 --> 00:14:11,924
So you have a big so at the

411
00:14:11,924 --> 00:14:14,085
moment the biogloss is used in the holes

412
00:14:14,085 --> 00:14:15,605
in bone generally not if there's a big

413
00:14:15,605 --> 00:14:17,365
piece of bone missing. And one, there's a

414
00:14:17,365 --> 00:14:19,144
big unmet clinical need for

415
00:14:20,085 --> 00:14:21,544
bad trauma where,

416
00:14:22,725 --> 00:14:24,745
they call it non union where the bones

417
00:14:25,230 --> 00:14:26,669
don't go back together no matter what you

418
00:14:26,669 --> 00:14:27,649
do to them basically.

419
00:14:28,589 --> 00:14:29,649
So if we had

420
00:14:29,950 --> 00:14:31,089
something with the

421
00:14:31,389 --> 00:14:32,529
the power of bioglass

422
00:14:32,990 --> 00:14:34,990
but that could share load with the with

423
00:14:34,990 --> 00:14:37,389
the bones, with the with the bones that's

424
00:14:37,389 --> 00:14:40,174
already there then it could be really revolutionary.

425
00:14:40,554 --> 00:14:42,634
So we've been working on that and we've

426
00:14:42,634 --> 00:14:44,235
managed to do it. And the fact that

427
00:14:44,235 --> 00:14:45,534
we now have this,

428
00:14:45,995 --> 00:14:48,475
material that has the the two properties, the

429
00:14:48,475 --> 00:14:51,355
the stimulation of bone growth and the ability

430
00:14:51,355 --> 00:14:52,495
to safely load.

431
00:14:52,970 --> 00:14:54,670
And we do that through,

432
00:14:55,690 --> 00:14:57,370
well, we make the scaffolds through 3 d

433
00:14:57,370 --> 00:14:57,870
printing.

434
00:14:58,490 --> 00:15:00,250
But the magic part of it is really

435
00:15:00,250 --> 00:15:02,170
what they're made of. So in order to

436
00:15:02,170 --> 00:15:04,730
get this mix of properties we had to

437
00:15:04,730 --> 00:15:06,350
we have to grow the glass

438
00:15:06,730 --> 00:15:07,549
through chemistry

439
00:15:08,315 --> 00:15:10,414
and grow the polymer at the same time.

440
00:15:10,955 --> 00:15:13,274
So that the glass network and the polymer

441
00:15:13,274 --> 00:15:15,434
network actually grow together. So some people might

442
00:15:15,434 --> 00:15:17,695
say well how's that different to a composite?

443
00:15:18,394 --> 00:15:20,554
Because the composite is where you have you

444
00:15:20,554 --> 00:15:21,695
might have your inorganic

445
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:24,949
or your glassy component and you might have

446
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:25,449
your,

447
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:28,649
matrix, a polymer matrix giving you flexibility.

448
00:15:30,070 --> 00:15:33,190
So something like glass fibre composites or carbon

449
00:15:33,190 --> 00:15:34,009
fibre composites.

450
00:15:34,709 --> 00:15:35,929
The problem with that

451
00:15:37,674 --> 00:15:40,315
for this medical application is that if you

452
00:15:40,315 --> 00:15:41,615
imagine you've got your

453
00:15:42,235 --> 00:15:42,735
bioactive

454
00:15:43,115 --> 00:15:45,294
glass fibres or particles,

455
00:15:45,914 --> 00:15:47,434
they're the things that the cells want to

456
00:15:47,434 --> 00:15:49,529
interact with. If you embed them in a

457
00:15:49,529 --> 00:15:51,529
in a polymer, in a plastic matrix then

458
00:15:51,529 --> 00:15:52,750
they're not gonna see them.

459
00:15:53,450 --> 00:15:55,290
So you might get some mechanical properties but

460
00:15:55,290 --> 00:15:56,670
you're not gonna get your

461
00:15:57,050 --> 00:15:57,550
your

462
00:15:57,930 --> 00:15:58,990
bioactive properties

463
00:15:59,769 --> 00:16:00,269
stimulation.

464
00:16:01,529 --> 00:16:02,894
So So the idea of the hybrid is

465
00:16:02,894 --> 00:16:05,715
that these these intimate relationships are so

466
00:16:06,174 --> 00:16:08,914
finally interlocked that when the cells come along

467
00:16:09,134 --> 00:16:10,815
and and attach to the surface they see

468
00:16:10,815 --> 00:16:12,335
the bioglass and and the polymer at the

469
00:16:12,335 --> 00:16:14,335
same time. So it literally bounces. If you

470
00:16:14,335 --> 00:16:16,590
threw it on the table it would bounce.

471
00:16:16,590 --> 00:16:18,190
Right? Yeah. It's just like a you know

472
00:16:18,190 --> 00:16:19,870
a kid's power ball. You know little round

473
00:16:19,870 --> 00:16:21,790
bouncy balls and you can bounce it on

474
00:16:21,790 --> 00:16:23,389
the desk and it'll bounce around like that.

475
00:16:23,389 --> 00:16:24,590
And so yeah, you can hit it with

476
00:16:24,590 --> 00:16:25,250
a hammer.

477
00:16:25,950 --> 00:16:27,950
You can even cut it in half and

478
00:16:27,950 --> 00:16:29,549
stick it back together in a self heal.

479
00:16:29,549 --> 00:16:31,875
Brilliant. Although unfortunately it doesn't self heal a

480
00:16:31,875 --> 00:16:33,394
100%. It's only I mean it gets about

481
00:16:33,394 --> 00:16:35,795
half of its strength back. But but it's

482
00:16:35,795 --> 00:16:38,355
fun to watch. Yeah. I can imagine. Yeah.

483
00:16:38,355 --> 00:16:40,595
Yeah. Yeah. But what is but there's obviously

484
00:16:40,595 --> 00:16:43,475
there's there's no because it will dissolve. Right?

485
00:16:43,475 --> 00:16:45,815
We couldn't use this for glass in windows.

486
00:16:47,129 --> 00:16:49,370
That's right. No. I mean, you know, when

487
00:16:49,370 --> 00:16:51,289
when we saw the self healing, we thought,

488
00:16:51,289 --> 00:16:52,909
oh, mobile phone screens.

489
00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:55,389
But, yeah, you don't really wanna buy degrading.

490
00:16:58,825 --> 00:17:00,585
At least not one that degrades while you're

491
00:17:00,585 --> 00:17:02,424
using it. No. I can think of some

492
00:17:02,424 --> 00:17:04,025
companies that might like the idea of it

493
00:17:04,025 --> 00:17:05,464
biodegrading, then you have to buy a new

494
00:17:05,464 --> 00:17:08,505
one, but nothing then. Yeah. Biodegradable, if you

495
00:17:08,505 --> 00:17:10,285
could press a button to make it biodegradable,

496
00:17:10,424 --> 00:17:11,785
that'd be good. Yeah. That would be I've

497
00:17:11,785 --> 00:17:14,150
had enough of it. Now I can biodegrade.

498
00:17:14,210 --> 00:17:14,710
Yeah.

499
00:17:15,650 --> 00:17:17,190
When are we gonna see bouncy

500
00:17:17,490 --> 00:17:18,309
bio glass

501
00:17:18,930 --> 00:17:19,910
being used?

502
00:17:20,289 --> 00:17:21,670
I wish I knew the answer.

503
00:17:22,369 --> 00:17:24,309
We're doing our best and

504
00:17:24,690 --> 00:17:26,789
we do have some investment

505
00:17:27,525 --> 00:17:30,325
in into the research group to accelerate its

506
00:17:30,325 --> 00:17:30,825
translation.

507
00:17:32,164 --> 00:17:32,664
So

508
00:17:33,045 --> 00:17:36,025
soon but soon in medical devices is

509
00:17:36,484 --> 00:17:37,224
not always

510
00:17:37,605 --> 00:17:38,585
everyone's soon.

511
00:17:39,470 --> 00:17:41,630
If a phone screen that biodegrades at the

512
00:17:41,630 --> 00:17:43,630
touch of a button seems a little far

513
00:17:43,630 --> 00:17:46,670
fetched right now, there's another thing that Julian's

514
00:17:46,670 --> 00:17:48,589
team are working on that wouldn't feel out

515
00:17:48,589 --> 00:17:50,750
of place on the pages of a science

516
00:17:50,750 --> 00:17:53,375
fiction novel. So the biogloss nanoparticles because it

517
00:17:53,375 --> 00:17:55,615
deliver the ions. They go inside the cell

518
00:17:55,615 --> 00:17:58,255
delivering these active ions. Great thing about glass

519
00:17:58,255 --> 00:18:00,815
is you can almost select any element from

520
00:18:00,815 --> 00:18:02,815
the periodic table and put it in the

521
00:18:02,815 --> 00:18:03,630
glass and

522
00:18:03,950 --> 00:18:05,890
most of those people have found a therapeutic

523
00:18:06,190 --> 00:18:07,089
benefit of

524
00:18:07,470 --> 00:18:08,609
for example strontium

525
00:18:09,150 --> 00:18:11,230
promotes bone growth and slows down the bone

526
00:18:11,230 --> 00:18:12,369
resorption in osteoporosis.

527
00:18:13,069 --> 00:18:16,029
Zinc kills cancer cells without killing the happy

528
00:18:16,029 --> 00:18:16,529
cells.

529
00:18:17,555 --> 00:18:19,654
And so we've been making some nanoparticles

530
00:18:20,275 --> 00:18:21,255
made of biogloss.

531
00:18:23,234 --> 00:18:24,994
And with the same ideas that they can

532
00:18:24,994 --> 00:18:26,535
deliver these ions. So,

533
00:18:27,234 --> 00:18:29,315
but with the benefit that they can deliver

534
00:18:29,315 --> 00:18:31,174
these ions at a controlled rate.

535
00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:34,099
So when there's 18 nanometers inside, they can

536
00:18:34,099 --> 00:18:35,720
float around the body and they can,

537
00:18:36,259 --> 00:18:38,579
taken up by cells and then they dissolve

538
00:18:38,579 --> 00:18:40,579
inside the cells and release the body, release

539
00:18:40,579 --> 00:18:42,900
those ions. While biogloss does have these amazing

540
00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:45,240
properties that make it great at triggering biological

541
00:18:45,380 --> 00:18:48,095
processes, there is still some risk of infection.

542
00:18:48,475 --> 00:18:50,015
And the dream is bioactive

543
00:18:50,475 --> 00:18:51,855
glass with antimicrobial

544
00:18:52,394 --> 00:18:52,894
properties.

545
00:18:53,434 --> 00:18:55,434
In researching for this podcast, I found a

546
00:18:55,434 --> 00:18:58,174
paper whose lead author was Martina Mikalska.

547
00:18:58,579 --> 00:19:00,660
We'll come to the paper shortly, but I'll

548
00:19:00,660 --> 00:19:03,539
let her introduce herself. I'm for another week

549
00:19:03,539 --> 00:19:06,980
a postdoctoral researcher in photonic innovations lab, at

550
00:19:06,980 --> 00:19:08,279
University College London.

551
00:19:08,819 --> 00:19:11,640
And starting the next week, I'll be, lecturer

552
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:12,359
in nanomanufacturing

553
00:19:13,724 --> 00:19:16,684
in the new UCLA, East Campus. I don't

554
00:19:16,684 --> 00:19:17,984
know if everyone knows,

555
00:19:18,525 --> 00:19:20,285
about it, but this is, like, the biggest

556
00:19:20,285 --> 00:19:20,785
extension

557
00:19:21,404 --> 00:19:24,045
since the UCL has been founded. It's supposed

558
00:19:24,045 --> 00:19:27,085
to bring researchers from different disciplines to work

559
00:19:27,085 --> 00:19:27,585
together

560
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:30,400
as well as some, industrial partners

561
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:31,599
to also

562
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:32,400
facilitate,

563
00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:34,559
work across sectors.

564
00:19:35,420 --> 00:19:38,539
So the actually, what's nice about this, it's,

565
00:19:38,779 --> 00:19:40,664
so the building I'm gonna be at, it's

566
00:19:40,664 --> 00:19:43,384
called manufacturing futures lab. This is where we

567
00:19:43,384 --> 00:19:46,365
share space with me coming from mechanical engineering

568
00:19:46,505 --> 00:19:50,125
and other researchers from chemical, biochemical engineering,

569
00:19:50,505 --> 00:19:51,244
and chemistry

570
00:19:51,945 --> 00:19:52,924
to work together,

571
00:19:53,225 --> 00:19:55,085
on addressing some of the big questions,

572
00:19:56,419 --> 00:19:58,119
that we are dealing with at the moment.

573
00:19:58,419 --> 00:19:59,079
My personal

574
00:19:59,380 --> 00:19:59,880
interest,

575
00:20:00,339 --> 00:20:01,140
is in,

576
00:20:01,460 --> 00:20:04,740
finding new technologies to find the the growing

577
00:20:04,740 --> 00:20:06,359
issue of antimicrobial resistance.

578
00:20:07,299 --> 00:20:09,619
So my background is, I should maybe say,

579
00:20:09,994 --> 00:20:11,375
is in chemical engineering,

580
00:20:12,154 --> 00:20:12,815
as well

581
00:20:13,275 --> 00:20:14,815
as in laboratory medicine.

582
00:20:15,674 --> 00:20:17,355
So and I actually did my,

583
00:20:17,914 --> 00:20:20,575
my PhD in physics on working on

584
00:20:20,955 --> 00:20:23,960
quantum dots and to use those optical

585
00:20:24,339 --> 00:20:27,160
fluorescent probes for breast cancer imaging. And

586
00:20:27,619 --> 00:20:28,119
because,

587
00:20:28,500 --> 00:20:31,079
I have this double double training,

588
00:20:32,259 --> 00:20:34,420
what I've been practicing since then is really

589
00:20:34,420 --> 00:20:37,664
working across disciplines and and doing really nanomaterial

590
00:20:37,805 --> 00:20:39,105
engineering to address

591
00:20:39,565 --> 00:20:42,445
health care related issues. But also I'm interested

592
00:20:42,445 --> 00:20:45,565
in energy applications and how can we make

593
00:20:45,565 --> 00:20:46,384
some passively

594
00:20:46,765 --> 00:20:50,099
working technologies that without energy to

595
00:20:51,140 --> 00:20:52,359
make buildings,

596
00:20:52,940 --> 00:20:54,819
a bit cooler, for instance. And this is

597
00:20:54,819 --> 00:20:56,419
how I got into the project that I'm

598
00:20:56,419 --> 00:20:58,099
at now to work on,

599
00:20:58,740 --> 00:20:59,720
smart windows,

600
00:21:00,660 --> 00:21:03,079
that would exceed some multifunctional

601
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:04,200
character.

602
00:21:04,724 --> 00:21:07,125
By this, I mean, will be glare free,

603
00:21:07,125 --> 00:21:09,304
so to will be anti reflective

604
00:21:10,005 --> 00:21:10,984
for a better

605
00:21:11,365 --> 00:21:14,585
visual effects, but also would be self cleaning,

606
00:21:15,125 --> 00:21:15,865
which is

607
00:21:16,404 --> 00:21:17,845
a a big, big issue. And you think

608
00:21:17,845 --> 00:21:18,345
about

609
00:21:20,059 --> 00:21:20,799
tall buildings,

610
00:21:21,740 --> 00:21:22,799
where there's some

611
00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:27,019
cost analysis that it takes basically the cleaning

612
00:21:27,019 --> 00:21:27,920
of such windows

613
00:21:28,619 --> 00:21:30,720
within the first 5 years when the building

614
00:21:31,019 --> 00:21:31,680
is built,

615
00:21:32,625 --> 00:21:34,625
costs the same as, as,

616
00:21:34,945 --> 00:21:37,025
actually installing those windows. So it's a big

617
00:21:37,025 --> 00:21:37,525
issue.

618
00:21:37,904 --> 00:21:40,545
And then, the third probably the most exciting

619
00:21:40,545 --> 00:21:42,085
part is, to

620
00:21:42,545 --> 00:21:45,200
regulate the amount of solar energy that comes

621
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,700
into the building depending on the temperature outside.

622
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:49,140
So,

623
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,759
say if it's cold, you let everything in,

624
00:21:51,759 --> 00:21:53,759
but when it's hot, you would like to

625
00:21:53,759 --> 00:21:56,580
reflect, stop that infrared coming into the building.

626
00:21:56,934 --> 00:21:59,255
So this is this is where I came

627
00:21:59,255 --> 00:22:00,795
into with my skills

628
00:22:01,255 --> 00:22:02,795
to this project and to,

629
00:22:03,335 --> 00:22:05,414
well, the paper that that you wanted to

630
00:22:05,414 --> 00:22:07,734
discuss. I was talking to Martina in her

631
00:22:07,734 --> 00:22:09,195
busy office at UCL,

632
00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:11,869
University College London, and the office is in

633
00:22:11,869 --> 00:22:12,849
the top floor

634
00:22:13,150 --> 00:22:15,549
of the UCL building. And all around her

635
00:22:15,549 --> 00:22:17,490
is the glass of the windows

636
00:22:17,789 --> 00:22:20,269
which taper upwards. And if it wasn't for

637
00:22:20,269 --> 00:22:22,654
the cityscape outside the windows, you could be

638
00:22:22,654 --> 00:22:24,994
forgiven for thinking you were on a boat.

639
00:22:25,134 --> 00:22:27,375
Anyway, that might explain some of the noises

640
00:22:27,375 --> 00:22:29,714
you hear as the conversation goes on.

641
00:22:30,015 --> 00:22:33,474
The paper is entitled bio inspired multifunctional

642
00:22:33,934 --> 00:22:34,755
glass surfaces

643
00:22:35,299 --> 00:22:36,119
through regenerative

644
00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:38,200
secondary mask lithography.

645
00:22:38,819 --> 00:22:41,779
Essentially, it's a paper about altering the surfaces

646
00:22:41,779 --> 00:22:44,579
of glass for applications such as fending off

647
00:22:44,579 --> 00:22:45,720
unwanted bacteria,

648
00:22:46,259 --> 00:22:48,359
something that's especially important

649
00:22:48,660 --> 00:22:49,799
in medical settings.

650
00:22:50,305 --> 00:22:52,244
Yes. So this is the method that,

651
00:22:52,865 --> 00:22:54,085
we've developed,

652
00:22:54,865 --> 00:22:56,244
in order to,

653
00:22:57,904 --> 00:22:58,404
enable

654
00:22:58,945 --> 00:23:00,164
glass nanostructuring.

655
00:23:00,865 --> 00:23:03,045
So I should start by saying that

656
00:23:03,390 --> 00:23:05,230
although there is lots of things that is

657
00:23:05,230 --> 00:23:07,390
made of glass, we have it in many

658
00:23:07,390 --> 00:23:08,210
of the day,

659
00:23:09,070 --> 00:23:11,309
products, like, when it comes to its,

660
00:23:13,230 --> 00:23:16,109
structuring any kind mic micro nano structuring that

661
00:23:16,109 --> 00:23:17,490
would induce some properties,

662
00:23:18,404 --> 00:23:21,125
this is extremely difficult. And this is for

663
00:23:21,125 --> 00:23:22,184
the reason that,

664
00:23:22,805 --> 00:23:24,725
we have these lots of things from made

665
00:23:24,725 --> 00:23:26,184
of glass because it's highly,

666
00:23:26,965 --> 00:23:27,945
robust material,

667
00:23:28,644 --> 00:23:31,429
in terms of, it's it's it has great

668
00:23:31,490 --> 00:23:32,470
thermal stability

669
00:23:32,849 --> 00:23:34,869
as well great, chemical stability.

670
00:23:35,569 --> 00:23:36,950
And the same excellent,

671
00:23:37,329 --> 00:23:38,630
properties of glassmakers,

672
00:23:39,490 --> 00:23:41,109
very difficult to deal with.

673
00:23:41,569 --> 00:23:42,069
So,

674
00:23:43,169 --> 00:23:44,130
we knew that,

675
00:23:44,714 --> 00:23:45,694
that by

676
00:23:46,394 --> 00:23:49,855
nano patterning, so basically engraving in the glass

677
00:23:50,075 --> 00:23:53,674
some nano arrays of particular geometries. Think about

678
00:23:53,674 --> 00:23:55,294
nano cone or nano pillar,

679
00:23:56,394 --> 00:23:57,134
that has,

680
00:23:57,990 --> 00:23:58,490
say,

681
00:23:58,789 --> 00:24:02,150
500 nanometers height and is on the pitch

682
00:24:02,150 --> 00:24:05,109
even smaller than that, say, 100 nanometers, we

683
00:24:05,109 --> 00:24:06,250
start to see some

684
00:24:06,630 --> 00:24:07,130
great,

685
00:24:07,829 --> 00:24:10,390
properties from the material like optical properties and

686
00:24:10,390 --> 00:24:12,804
the reflective properties. So so there's a big

687
00:24:12,804 --> 00:24:14,884
need to do that, and this is extremely

688
00:24:14,884 --> 00:24:17,625
difficult. So we needed to think like,

689
00:24:18,325 --> 00:24:19,384
yeah. Okay. So

690
00:24:19,845 --> 00:24:21,365
how how to do it? And so there

691
00:24:21,365 --> 00:24:22,825
was a need for a new method,

692
00:24:23,525 --> 00:24:24,025
and,

693
00:24:25,204 --> 00:24:26,505
myself and other researchers

694
00:24:26,910 --> 00:24:27,570
came together,

695
00:24:28,430 --> 00:24:30,509
to work out how to do it. So

696
00:24:30,509 --> 00:24:32,049
the secondary mask lithography,

697
00:24:32,509 --> 00:24:34,750
in order to pattern something, typically what we

698
00:24:34,750 --> 00:24:35,250
do,

699
00:24:35,869 --> 00:24:37,809
we use a mask.

700
00:24:38,430 --> 00:24:39,070
So say

701
00:24:40,684 --> 00:24:43,105
so what we basically did, we took some

702
00:24:44,285 --> 00:24:45,345
polymer micelles,

703
00:24:46,204 --> 00:24:48,204
that we just spin coated on on top

704
00:24:48,204 --> 00:24:49,025
of the surface,

705
00:24:49,484 --> 00:24:51,724
and this is very rapid. We're talking about

706
00:24:51,724 --> 00:24:54,544
20 seconds, and the pattern with that nanoscale

707
00:24:54,684 --> 00:24:57,490
resolution is there. But the the then once

708
00:24:57,490 --> 00:25:00,950
we have this pattern where these mesolar bumps

709
00:25:03,009 --> 00:25:03,509
create

710
00:25:05,569 --> 00:25:06,309
create this

711
00:25:06,849 --> 00:25:08,849
this this layout, we need to transfer that

712
00:25:08,849 --> 00:25:10,210
into a glass. And this is what was

713
00:25:10,210 --> 00:25:12,835
the problem because what we typically do, we

714
00:25:12,835 --> 00:25:13,554
use some,

715
00:25:14,035 --> 00:25:15,494
glass etching chemistry.

716
00:25:16,194 --> 00:25:16,914
We do it,

717
00:25:17,474 --> 00:25:18,934
typically in the clean room,

718
00:25:19,795 --> 00:25:22,755
in a tool called reactive ion etcher. So

719
00:25:22,755 --> 00:25:24,855
we we we have a chemicals,

720
00:25:25,539 --> 00:25:27,859
that we ionize. We create a plasma that

721
00:25:27,859 --> 00:25:29,480
then in a dry way,

722
00:25:30,019 --> 00:25:31,240
edges the glass,

723
00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:35,299
around the pattern. The trouble with this pattern

724
00:25:35,299 --> 00:25:35,960
was that

725
00:25:36,259 --> 00:25:38,855
because it's it's organic, it's polymer,

726
00:25:39,474 --> 00:25:41,494
and it's only 20 nanometers

727
00:25:41,955 --> 00:25:43,734
tall, so it's extremely

728
00:25:44,035 --> 00:25:44,535
small,

729
00:25:45,555 --> 00:25:46,914
it's it's not very,

730
00:25:47,315 --> 00:25:49,955
durable. So that would allow you to to

731
00:25:49,955 --> 00:25:52,535
get, say, 200 nanometer tall structures.

732
00:25:53,009 --> 00:25:54,630
And so it happens that

733
00:25:55,009 --> 00:25:55,509
that

734
00:25:55,809 --> 00:25:58,769
this magnificent optical properties of,

735
00:25:59,250 --> 00:25:59,990
of glass,

736
00:26:02,049 --> 00:26:04,210
are they controlled by aspect ratio of the

737
00:26:04,210 --> 00:26:05,109
features. So,

738
00:26:06,049 --> 00:26:06,549
so

739
00:26:07,115 --> 00:26:09,595
the, again, the idea was how do we

740
00:26:09,595 --> 00:26:10,494
make it robust?

741
00:26:11,115 --> 00:26:12,975
So we came up with a process,

742
00:26:15,355 --> 00:26:16,555
that during the,

743
00:26:17,035 --> 00:26:19,674
the etching itself, the chemistry works in a

744
00:26:19,674 --> 00:26:21,215
way that there's lots of bioproducts.

745
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:22,980
And this bioproducts,

746
00:26:23,599 --> 00:26:24,000
it's,

747
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,160
let's let's call it there is a sticky

748
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:26,660
polymer,

749
00:26:27,759 --> 00:26:28,240
that,

750
00:26:28,799 --> 00:26:30,579
we took an advantage

751
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:31,700
of,

752
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,259
and and it started to deposit

753
00:26:34,705 --> 00:26:35,505
on that,

754
00:26:36,305 --> 00:26:38,565
polymer micelle protecting it.

755
00:26:39,025 --> 00:26:41,184
And and you can imagine that this is

756
00:26:41,184 --> 00:26:44,404
chemically more chemically speaking, it's Teflon like structure.

757
00:26:44,945 --> 00:26:46,065
And this is what,

758
00:26:46,465 --> 00:26:46,965
what

759
00:26:47,470 --> 00:26:50,190
fluorine that we use to etch glass doesn't

760
00:26:50,190 --> 00:26:51,090
react with.

761
00:26:51,549 --> 00:26:54,210
So we were able to protect the mask

762
00:26:54,509 --> 00:26:56,529
and let the etching to progress.

763
00:26:56,910 --> 00:26:59,170
So this is the secondary mask.

764
00:26:59,710 --> 00:27:01,390
This is this is the mystery of the

765
00:27:01,390 --> 00:27:02,370
secondary mask.

766
00:27:02,825 --> 00:27:04,765
And and this elegant trick,

767
00:27:05,464 --> 00:27:07,805
allowed us to to achieve what we wanted.

768
00:27:07,865 --> 00:27:10,025
In order to showcase the potential of this,

769
00:27:10,025 --> 00:27:12,505
Martina and her colleagues tailored some of these

770
00:27:12,505 --> 00:27:13,244
glass features

771
00:27:13,625 --> 00:27:14,845
to achieve omnidirectional

772
00:27:15,384 --> 00:27:15,884
antireflectivity,

773
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,660
self cleaning, and unique antibacterial

774
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:20,619
activity

775
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:21,900
towards staphylococcus

776
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,119
aureus, a bacteria very commonly linked to upper

777
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,660
respiratory tract infections.

778
00:27:28,039 --> 00:27:29,960
So first of all, I should say that,

779
00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:31,785
by combination of

780
00:27:32,744 --> 00:27:36,025
of different masking. So, say, we can tune

781
00:27:36,025 --> 00:27:38,365
the the pitch, therefore, the spacing,

782
00:27:39,144 --> 00:27:41,404
the center to center distance of the features.

783
00:27:41,945 --> 00:27:43,404
And now with this method,

784
00:27:44,105 --> 00:27:45,865
we can we can tune also the height

785
00:27:45,865 --> 00:27:47,164
of the structures. Therefore,

786
00:27:47,900 --> 00:27:48,859
you can have,

787
00:27:49,419 --> 00:27:51,419
nano cones, you can have nano pillars, you

788
00:27:51,419 --> 00:27:53,359
can have some nano pencils

789
00:27:54,059 --> 00:27:54,700
on your,

790
00:27:55,259 --> 00:27:58,140
on your glass, and that will, in different

791
00:27:58,140 --> 00:27:59,200
ways, control

792
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:02,059
the interaction of glass with we talk a

793
00:28:02,059 --> 00:28:04,214
lot about light, but they can also

794
00:28:04,674 --> 00:28:06,355
control the interaction with,

795
00:28:06,754 --> 00:28:07,254
water,

796
00:28:08,115 --> 00:28:09,474
other liquids like oils,

797
00:28:10,194 --> 00:28:10,694
and,

798
00:28:11,634 --> 00:28:14,294
what I am particularly interested in, bacteria.

799
00:28:15,234 --> 00:28:17,339
And, and this is quite cool.

800
00:28:17,819 --> 00:28:20,400
So so we need this kind of,

801
00:28:22,220 --> 00:28:24,000
this kind of level of control,

802
00:28:24,380 --> 00:28:25,039
in order

803
00:28:25,740 --> 00:28:26,480
to first,

804
00:28:27,019 --> 00:28:28,240
fundamentally understand

805
00:28:28,700 --> 00:28:30,714
how how these things operate because a lot

806
00:28:30,714 --> 00:28:31,454
of phenomena,

807
00:28:32,234 --> 00:28:32,954
are still,

808
00:28:33,355 --> 00:28:34,174
under investigation,

809
00:28:35,674 --> 00:28:37,694
to to then use that as a rational

810
00:28:37,755 --> 00:28:39,375
design for specific applications.

811
00:28:40,234 --> 00:28:42,654
So, so think about mobile display.

812
00:28:43,250 --> 00:28:43,750
So,

813
00:28:44,210 --> 00:28:46,309
while we we've all been experiencing

814
00:28:46,690 --> 00:28:48,149
the consequences of pandemic,

815
00:28:48,450 --> 00:28:51,250
and we've been, like, more now become more

816
00:28:51,250 --> 00:28:53,269
sensitive to to disinfecting

817
00:28:53,889 --> 00:28:54,389
and

818
00:28:55,169 --> 00:28:57,409
to contamination that comes in the high touch

819
00:28:57,409 --> 00:29:00,115
surfaces. And when you think about, like, display,

820
00:29:00,115 --> 00:29:00,934
for instance,

821
00:29:01,715 --> 00:29:04,115
the such structuring not only could give you

822
00:29:04,115 --> 00:29:07,095
anti reflective properties and increase the transparency,

823
00:29:07,795 --> 00:29:10,055
so which is also, by the way, independent

824
00:29:10,275 --> 00:29:12,275
on on incident angles. So you can move

825
00:29:12,275 --> 00:29:14,679
your object and and you can still read

826
00:29:14,679 --> 00:29:16,299
what it's what it's written there.

827
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,039
But but you have to think also that

828
00:29:20,039 --> 00:29:22,460
this optical properties will be preserved

829
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,414
only where, you know, like, that will be

830
00:29:26,414 --> 00:29:27,714
dependent on the,

831
00:29:28,335 --> 00:29:30,335
on the environment of use. So when you

832
00:29:30,335 --> 00:29:32,414
put your fingers that have some oils and

833
00:29:32,414 --> 00:29:32,914
other

834
00:29:33,615 --> 00:29:34,115
contaminants

835
00:29:34,494 --> 00:29:35,234
like bacteria,

836
00:29:35,855 --> 00:29:38,414
then this proper the optical properties will be

837
00:29:38,414 --> 00:29:40,390
affected. So there is a need for multifunctionality

838
00:29:40,929 --> 00:29:41,429
clearly,

839
00:29:42,049 --> 00:29:42,450
and,

840
00:29:42,929 --> 00:29:45,809
this kind of structure can accommodate couple of

841
00:29:45,809 --> 00:29:47,569
things at the same time. So obviously it

842
00:29:47,569 --> 00:29:50,369
goes beyond this, but within health care settings,

843
00:29:50,369 --> 00:29:53,190
it's there are plenty of applications. Oh, absolutely.

844
00:29:53,634 --> 00:29:55,654
Absolute. Any surface actually,

845
00:29:57,075 --> 00:29:57,575
and

846
00:29:58,035 --> 00:29:58,934
at at hospital,

847
00:30:01,234 --> 00:30:03,414
could be targeted. So especially

848
00:30:04,914 --> 00:30:07,589
surgical sites, they are all made of different

849
00:30:07,589 --> 00:30:09,049
type of materials that,

850
00:30:10,150 --> 00:30:12,230
well, that we should maybe say that to

851
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:14,789
fix. 1 that do not allow to to

852
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:17,349
to to stick bacteria to them, so so

853
00:30:17,349 --> 00:30:19,269
we have the repellent effect and the other

854
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:21,734
that kill in c 2. And I should

855
00:30:21,734 --> 00:30:23,974
mention that these surfaces could be designed to

856
00:30:23,974 --> 00:30:25,914
do, one thing or the other.

857
00:30:27,095 --> 00:30:28,234
So that's quite cool.

858
00:30:28,934 --> 00:30:31,194
But the beauty of it is that,

859
00:30:31,990 --> 00:30:34,390
since this is physical method because we apply

860
00:30:34,390 --> 00:30:37,349
physical forces. Imagine the the the nano spikes

861
00:30:37,349 --> 00:30:38,730
that are order of magnitude

862
00:30:40,470 --> 00:30:41,849
smaller than bacteria,

863
00:30:42,309 --> 00:30:44,250
the typical bacteria. Bacteria

864
00:30:44,664 --> 00:30:47,384
adhere to the to the surfaces and, and

865
00:30:47,384 --> 00:30:47,884
then,

866
00:30:48,585 --> 00:30:51,005
upon the induced forces, there is a mechanical

867
00:30:51,224 --> 00:30:51,724
stress

868
00:30:52,345 --> 00:30:54,664
on cells, and then they may be either

869
00:30:54,664 --> 00:30:56,845
pierced or deform and ruptured,

870
00:30:57,704 --> 00:30:59,005
or so much stress

871
00:30:59,419 --> 00:31:01,339
will be induced that they will program themselves

872
00:31:01,339 --> 00:31:02,000
to death.

873
00:31:02,700 --> 00:31:04,779
And again, the beauty of this is that

874
00:31:04,779 --> 00:31:06,160
you don't use any chemicals.

875
00:31:06,539 --> 00:31:08,400
So we believe that,

876
00:31:09,099 --> 00:31:10,640
since these surfaces

877
00:31:11,099 --> 00:31:13,339
work through so many physical means that it

878
00:31:13,339 --> 00:31:14,079
would be

879
00:31:14,484 --> 00:31:15,784
evolutionary difficult

880
00:31:16,164 --> 00:31:17,944
to overcome that and and,

881
00:31:18,325 --> 00:31:21,284
and actually induce any antimicrobial resistance, which is

882
00:31:21,284 --> 00:31:23,464
quite cool. How easy is that to replicate?

883
00:31:23,524 --> 00:31:25,845
How how quickly could this be something that

884
00:31:25,845 --> 00:31:29,049
we're seeing out out there in glass manufacturers

885
00:31:29,190 --> 00:31:30,730
everywhere? Well, there are some,

886
00:31:31,670 --> 00:31:33,849
startups and some, like, also,

887
00:31:34,230 --> 00:31:34,730
well,

888
00:31:35,109 --> 00:31:38,150
some companies that already are doing what's these

889
00:31:38,150 --> 00:31:39,289
are called structures,

890
00:31:40,244 --> 00:31:42,505
maybe on a smaller aspect ratio.

891
00:31:43,365 --> 00:31:43,865
But,

892
00:31:45,125 --> 00:31:48,345
things like this are are happening. And, actually,

893
00:31:48,565 --> 00:31:50,345
as we speak, we are also collaborating,

894
00:31:50,964 --> 00:31:53,384
with industrial partners like NSG Plukington,

895
00:31:53,924 --> 00:31:54,984
here in the UK,

896
00:31:55,690 --> 00:31:57,710
where we're looking how to bring these technologies,

897
00:31:59,130 --> 00:32:00,029
as products,

898
00:32:00,730 --> 00:32:01,230
into,

899
00:32:02,090 --> 00:32:03,390
yeah, into the market.

900
00:32:04,410 --> 00:32:06,170
Well, one thing is that,

901
00:32:06,650 --> 00:32:08,509
that you can structure glass,

902
00:32:08,970 --> 00:32:11,505
directly, but you can also look at the

903
00:32:11,505 --> 00:32:14,865
roots to retrofit what exists. Because typically, we

904
00:32:14,865 --> 00:32:16,865
we should mind that, you know, when we

905
00:32:16,865 --> 00:32:18,785
when we install the windows, we don't want

906
00:32:18,785 --> 00:32:21,345
to exchange that too often. Right? We're talking

907
00:32:21,345 --> 00:32:21,845
about,

908
00:32:22,464 --> 00:32:23,845
decades, if not longer,

909
00:32:24,305 --> 00:32:27,569
of utilizing those. So but we can, so

910
00:32:27,569 --> 00:32:29,190
so what we are working

911
00:32:29,809 --> 00:32:31,730
on as well is how do you make

912
00:32:31,730 --> 00:32:32,470
it maybe

913
00:32:32,849 --> 00:32:33,490
in some,

914
00:32:33,890 --> 00:32:34,390
polymers,

915
00:32:34,930 --> 00:32:37,109
with the adhesive on the other side

916
00:32:37,650 --> 00:32:38,130
and,

917
00:32:38,529 --> 00:32:41,275
and trying to develop methods for that that

918
00:32:41,275 --> 00:32:42,575
will be scalable.

919
00:32:43,914 --> 00:32:46,315
So so, yeah, this is this is something

920
00:32:46,315 --> 00:32:48,474
that's currently ongoing, and,

921
00:32:49,755 --> 00:32:52,414
I've just come back from the conference

922
00:32:54,315 --> 00:32:56,015
of material research society

923
00:32:56,450 --> 00:32:58,390
where there's a lot of work about,

924
00:32:59,890 --> 00:33:02,609
about scaling up the nano manufacturing because this

925
00:33:02,609 --> 00:33:05,190
is also we're talking about wearable electronics

926
00:33:05,490 --> 00:33:05,730
and,

927
00:33:06,690 --> 00:33:07,829
other stuff like that.

928
00:33:08,130 --> 00:33:11,434
And and and there's lots of discussion, ongoing

929
00:33:11,494 --> 00:33:11,994
on

930
00:33:13,015 --> 00:33:16,554
going into naninfinity geography, roll to roll, processes.

931
00:33:16,694 --> 00:33:18,075
So this is something that

932
00:33:18,535 --> 00:33:19,035
industry

933
00:33:20,214 --> 00:33:22,289
is looking at and starting to pick up

934
00:33:22,769 --> 00:33:23,509
on. So

935
00:33:24,130 --> 00:33:25,590
so I think it should be,

936
00:33:26,930 --> 00:33:27,430
it

937
00:33:28,049 --> 00:33:29,990
should be fairly soon when we start seeing

938
00:33:30,450 --> 00:33:31,970
stuff like that on the market. What are

939
00:33:31,970 --> 00:33:34,369
you most excited about with this? Well, the

940
00:33:34,369 --> 00:33:34,869
ability

941
00:33:35,650 --> 00:33:36,994
of self disinfecting,

942
00:33:37,855 --> 00:33:38,355
and

943
00:33:39,055 --> 00:33:40,355
and protecting our

944
00:33:40,654 --> 00:33:43,634
health and environment from this unwanted contaminations.

945
00:33:44,575 --> 00:33:45,075
And

946
00:33:45,855 --> 00:33:48,414
and that's that's definitely the closest to my

947
00:33:48,414 --> 00:33:48,750
heart

948
00:33:49,549 --> 00:33:53,890
as a as a trained diagnostician and material

949
00:33:54,029 --> 00:33:55,890
engineer. Like, I I

950
00:33:56,349 --> 00:33:58,670
I'm and I'm interested from, like, both sides

951
00:33:58,670 --> 00:34:00,910
from material side. It's like there there are

952
00:34:00,910 --> 00:34:02,865
still challenges. How do you structure

953
00:34:03,244 --> 00:34:04,944
in a scalable ways materials,

954
00:34:06,365 --> 00:34:10,045
but also from the bacteria side. Like, how

955
00:34:10,045 --> 00:34:12,945
do they sense the the the the structures?

956
00:34:13,164 --> 00:34:15,344
Like, like, how these interactions

957
00:34:16,849 --> 00:34:18,710
are happening on molecular level.

958
00:34:19,570 --> 00:34:20,070
So,

959
00:34:20,449 --> 00:34:22,390
if you if you are able to understand

960
00:34:22,449 --> 00:34:24,070
that, then we can take

961
00:34:25,010 --> 00:34:26,630
this this even further.

962
00:34:27,170 --> 00:34:30,545
And I may throw here some, like, exotic

963
00:34:30,764 --> 00:34:31,264
studies

964
00:34:31,644 --> 00:34:33,964
seems far fetched, but but actually you can

965
00:34:33,964 --> 00:34:35,344
start start maybe

966
00:34:35,964 --> 00:34:38,364
thinking about how to study evolution by using

967
00:34:38,364 --> 00:34:41,804
this kind of structures or, like, some some

968
00:34:41,804 --> 00:34:42,784
work on microbiome.

969
00:34:43,324 --> 00:34:44,625
So when you think about,

970
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:45,980
well,

971
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,360
when you put some mixtures of cells on

972
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,000
on on such structures, they they they may

973
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,320
start to compete as as it happens, like,

974
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:54,139
in the environment.

975
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:55,420
And then,

976
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:57,099
you may have some nice

977
00:34:57,864 --> 00:34:59,785
system to to look at in terms of

978
00:34:59,785 --> 00:35:01,005
how the system evolves,

979
00:35:02,265 --> 00:35:04,525
and, organizes itself. So,

980
00:35:05,385 --> 00:35:08,925
and, and working on microbiome is another, like,

981
00:35:09,065 --> 00:35:09,644
a huge

982
00:35:11,144 --> 00:35:12,445
hugely grown field

983
00:35:14,559 --> 00:35:16,639
in research. So I'm, like, really excited to

984
00:35:16,639 --> 00:35:19,039
connect both ends. Yeah. That's really interesting, isn't

985
00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:20,400
it? Oh, I saw we just,

986
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,639
you know, obviously, you've said you're UCL. You're

987
00:35:22,639 --> 00:35:24,400
in London. It's a busy city. We just

988
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,744
heard a siren going past. Do you you

989
00:35:26,744 --> 00:35:28,984
know, when you're walking around London, do you

990
00:35:28,984 --> 00:35:30,585
look at the glass and sort of think

991
00:35:30,585 --> 00:35:32,585
about the different aspects of it, or is

992
00:35:32,585 --> 00:35:34,505
it just sink into the background like it

993
00:35:34,505 --> 00:35:35,964
does for everyone? Absolutely.

994
00:35:36,344 --> 00:35:36,844
Absolutely.

995
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,239
And especially now in the pandemic, like, you

996
00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:40,920
can see it everywhere. You know? I was,

997
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:43,340
I was

998
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,719
doing the grocery shopping, and, you know, we

999
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:46,619
have all this

1000
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,375
plastic dividers or, like, going to the bank

1001
00:35:51,375 --> 00:35:54,255
or, like, anywhere. And I can see, okay,

1002
00:35:54,255 --> 00:35:56,335
this has, like, lots of cracks. This looks

1003
00:35:56,335 --> 00:35:56,835
dirty.

1004
00:35:57,375 --> 00:35:59,375
And, and, you know, these are the places

1005
00:35:59,375 --> 00:36:01,614
where you would rather have something actually when

1006
00:36:01,614 --> 00:36:04,929
someone sneezes and that that bug, like, travels,

1007
00:36:05,150 --> 00:36:06,529
like, onto that surface,

1008
00:36:06,909 --> 00:36:09,549
like, you would like to actually induce kitting

1009
00:36:09,549 --> 00:36:12,109
and and and keep the surface clean. So

1010
00:36:12,109 --> 00:36:13,089
I can see totally,

1011
00:36:13,389 --> 00:36:13,889
like,

1012
00:36:14,429 --> 00:36:17,329
already, like, I'm actually probing for the application

1013
00:36:17,389 --> 00:36:19,005
of the technologies we are

1014
00:36:19,804 --> 00:36:22,545
developing. And and, and I have to see

1015
00:36:22,924 --> 00:36:24,924
say that there is a huge need definitely

1016
00:36:24,924 --> 00:36:27,324
for that. If you're interested in glassware in

1017
00:36:27,324 --> 00:36:27,824
pharmaceuticals,

1018
00:36:28,364 --> 00:36:30,844
you may have heard of Valor Glass, a

1019
00:36:30,844 --> 00:36:32,784
product designed by the company Corning

1020
00:36:33,085 --> 00:36:35,279
to prevent cracks and reduce contamination

1021
00:36:35,819 --> 00:36:39,119
in pharmaceutical packaging. This glass and other strengthened

1022
00:36:39,179 --> 00:36:41,920
glass products from different companies have been particularly

1023
00:36:42,139 --> 00:36:44,219
helpful in the last couple of years during

1024
00:36:44,219 --> 00:36:47,260
the pandemic because they can also withstand very

1025
00:36:47,260 --> 00:36:48,000
low temperatures

1026
00:36:48,460 --> 00:36:49,635
and strong impacts.

1027
00:36:50,195 --> 00:36:52,355
So these strong glasses have been used to

1028
00:36:52,355 --> 00:36:55,255
produce the vials that the life saving vaccines

1029
00:36:55,554 --> 00:36:57,815
have been carried in. Martinez suggested

1030
00:36:58,114 --> 00:37:01,155
another possible use of specialized glass, which might

1031
00:37:01,155 --> 00:37:03,320
be particularly useful for those of us who

1032
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,480
aren't quite ready to give up the masks

1033
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:05,980
yet.

1034
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:07,260
At this scales,

1035
00:37:08,039 --> 00:37:10,920
well, we we all pretty familiar with the

1036
00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,300
effect of lotus leaf.

1037
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,019
So we have some structuring that

1038
00:37:15,405 --> 00:37:17,885
that between the structures, the air is,

1039
00:37:18,285 --> 00:37:19,885
is entrapped and that,

1040
00:37:20,525 --> 00:37:21,025
basically,

1041
00:37:22,285 --> 00:37:25,244
helps to prevent water penetration into the bottom

1042
00:37:25,244 --> 00:37:27,405
of the structure. So we have this, this

1043
00:37:27,405 --> 00:37:30,019
this water that creates the the the little

1044
00:37:30,019 --> 00:37:31,719
balls that bounces off the structure.

1045
00:37:32,179 --> 00:37:32,980
So we have this,

1046
00:37:33,860 --> 00:37:36,980
and we can buy similar coatings now, like,

1047
00:37:36,980 --> 00:37:37,719
on Amazon

1048
00:37:38,340 --> 00:37:40,679
and spray it on our shoes or whatever

1049
00:37:40,739 --> 00:37:41,559
to have something,

1050
00:37:42,260 --> 00:37:43,400
very water repellent.

1051
00:37:43,805 --> 00:37:45,825
But when you do this kind of structuring

1052
00:37:45,885 --> 00:37:47,744
at this scale, you can also

1053
00:37:49,325 --> 00:37:49,825
induce

1054
00:37:50,204 --> 00:37:52,765
the repellency of the micro droplets, so like,

1055
00:37:53,005 --> 00:37:53,985
foking effects.

1056
00:37:54,285 --> 00:37:56,765
And we now all very familiar by when

1057
00:37:56,765 --> 00:37:58,625
wearing masks and our sunglasses,

1058
00:37:59,309 --> 00:38:00,849
How annoying it is

1059
00:38:01,309 --> 00:38:02,369
to look,

1060
00:38:03,150 --> 00:38:05,329
through the glasses and have all this condensation

1061
00:38:05,630 --> 00:38:08,829
happening. So guess what? The structures can also

1062
00:38:08,829 --> 00:38:10,130
prevent that, and

1063
00:38:10,750 --> 00:38:11,650
we we publish

1064
00:38:13,070 --> 00:38:13,789
a a a nice,

1065
00:38:14,110 --> 00:38:16,755
fun, like, lots of fundamental study on that

1066
00:38:16,755 --> 00:38:19,315
in in last year in nature communications with

1067
00:38:19,315 --> 00:38:19,894
a group,

1068
00:38:20,994 --> 00:38:24,514
that has been investigating the condensation phenomena for

1069
00:38:24,514 --> 00:38:26,994
for a long time, from Paris, the group

1070
00:38:26,994 --> 00:38:27,655
of professor.

1071
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:30,780
So if anyone is interested, I also encourage

1072
00:38:30,839 --> 00:38:33,000
to look at that because it's, it's it's

1073
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:34,760
quite cool to see how it can be

1074
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:35,260
designed.

1075
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,159
That's amazing. That makes me, makes me want

1076
00:38:39,159 --> 00:38:41,079
to get you to design some goggles for

1077
00:38:41,079 --> 00:38:42,059
me for diving.

1078
00:38:42,474 --> 00:38:42,974
Exactly.

1079
00:38:44,394 --> 00:38:45,994
The other night, I found myself in the

1080
00:38:45,994 --> 00:38:48,175
cinema watching everything everywhere

1081
00:38:48,714 --> 00:38:49,614
all at once.

1082
00:38:50,074 --> 00:38:52,074
I mentioned that because it was a very

1083
00:38:52,074 --> 00:38:54,635
busy cinema and I highly recommend that you

1084
00:38:54,635 --> 00:38:56,074
find time to go and see that film

1085
00:38:56,074 --> 00:38:57,214
if you haven't already.

1086
00:38:57,699 --> 00:38:59,239
But the idea of glasses

1087
00:38:59,780 --> 00:39:01,699
that don't steam up while you're wearing a

1088
00:39:01,699 --> 00:39:03,780
mask in a busy cinema seemed like a

1089
00:39:03,780 --> 00:39:06,980
very good invention to me. But glasses also

1090
00:39:06,980 --> 00:39:09,619
played some really important roles in the fight

1091
00:39:09,619 --> 00:39:11,000
against COVID 19,

1092
00:39:11,414 --> 00:39:13,015
And you can read about some of those

1093
00:39:13,015 --> 00:39:15,355
and a whole lot more in James Dacey's

1094
00:39:15,414 --> 00:39:19,114
article, a transparent tool for a fairer planet,

1095
00:39:19,255 --> 00:39:21,414
which you can find in the Physics World

1096
00:39:21,414 --> 00:39:21,914
Magazine

1097
00:39:22,215 --> 00:39:24,855
this June. For next month's podcast, we'll return

1098
00:39:24,855 --> 00:39:26,954
to particle physics as we celebrate

1099
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:27,820
10

1100
00:39:28,199 --> 00:39:30,780
years since the discovery of the Higgs boson.

1101
00:39:31,159 --> 00:39:33,019
And thank you very much for listening.

1102
00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:38,780
Physics World.