The Graduate

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Speaker 1: Hello, listeners. Just a quick content warning for this episode for rape allegations, because in the movie we're discussing today, a character falsely accuses another character of rape, and we discussed that pretty extensively toward the middle of the episode, just so you were aware of that ahead of time. Enjoy the episode. On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the Bechdel Cast. Hello Jamie, my old friend. I've come to talk with you again so that we can pass the Bechdel test. And here's to you, Mrs Becktel Cast. The fans love us more than we can know. Whoa Mrs Becktel hast thoughts. I love it? I have like I can't stop smiling. Yeah, Mrs pectel Cast, that's new name of our show. Who she married to herself? Wow? Oh my god, I love that for her. Wow. That literally put like butterflies in my stomach for some reason. I don't I don't know what that wow? What would art? We would be? We would be? Would it be Durante and Loft? Funkele or Loftus and Durrant Funcle. Durrant Funcle is a mouthful I'm happy with. I would happily accept Loft Funcle jam Loft Funcle. Whoa, Oh my gosh, Okay, that means you get two very carry Fisher God, you're so lucky. Wait did Paul sign Wow? I didn't even know about that. Yeah, it was a well spoiler alert didn't end well because they got divorced. I don't know that much about it. I just know that I am a Carrie Fisher's stand for life and Paul Simon horror feelings so him. Yeah, I think I'm going to have to kill him. Nope, that's kidding anyway. Hello, my name is Kate Lynn drunk Funkle. Let's just both be our guard Funcle. I think that that's Honestly, I'm pretty and again like classic rockheads, please correct us, because I don't have a ton of my Honestly, I'm at my dad's house right now and he was trying to tell me about Simon and Garlf uncle and I just could not be bothered. I was like, I'm busy, So he probably could have supplemented this conversation, but Um, I'm pretty sure Art Garl Funkele was like good vibes, less talented maybe, and Paul Simon was like almost like Paul McCartney, like I'm this, I'm I'm very talented, and he was right, but he was an asshole one of those situations. So I feel like being of the Funkle variety, and I'm sure our girlf uncle is super talented, but he just had a good personality and people are like men are assholes, which brings us to at the time. Also, my name is jam Loft Funkle and this is the battle cast, so I guess I'm Kate Kate Kate dr Funkele, I like der Funkelen. Do you remember the guy Okay, this is not passing the battle cast? Do remember that guy, Brian Dunkelman. No, who's that? Okay, this is the worst story ever. I'm falling asleep already. But he was like the original host of American Idol pre Ryan Seacrest. He was like a host of maybe I don't remember like, but his name was Brian Dunkleman, and I just remember him really well because he had a comedy album he released and it was called American Dunkleman and that made me laugh. I don't know what he was like, I can't picture him, but I was like American Dunkleman. That's hilarious as Kate dr Funkele or Jam Funcle. So what the podcast about? So? This is the Bechtel Cast, in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, and we use a little something called the Bechtel Test, which we simply use as a jumping off point. But that, of course, is a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test. There are different versions of the test. The one that we use is this two characters of a marginalized gender have to have names, they have to speak to each other, and that conversation has to be about something other than a man. And ideally it's a sub stantial conversation. You know, it's two or more lines of dialogue, and it is plot relevant. Plot relevant. You say, yeah, okay, well a spoiler alert not here, not in this one, Oh my god, aggressively not so. But but that said, I think that this is going to be a fascinating conversation. We've been getting requests for this movie for some time, because I'm pretty sure this podcast has been going on for as long as this movie has been out, is that correct? Yeah? Decade decades, fifty five years correct? Um, Today we're covering feminist masterpiece The Graduate. Oh my goodness, so much to talk about. What is your history with The Graduate? The Graduate? And I, Um, I definitely didn't see it before college. I feel like I had to watch this as a part of a film class or something. I will say I've never been a particular fan of this movie. I mean I haven't seen it, and at least at least since before we've been doing this show. I've never watched it critically before. I just always have kind of been like my recollection of my reaction to it was like, I really like and Bancroft, but this movie is boring to me. Like I just didn't. I just thought it was boring. And I thought that and and and in my defense, I was right. I thought the lead character was really boring. And then looking when you look at it critically, you're like, well, he's a lot of things, but um, but I was just like, this is so boring to me. I just didn't like it. But I will say I am a big Mike Nichols fan. I absolutely love Mike Nichols. He directed two of my favorite movies ever, Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf and Um The Bird Cage, and he's an icon. I really admire his work Rest in Power. I know this is one of his most famous movies, but it's just not one of my favorite. And then rewatching it for this, I was like, what, this is kind of like a mine field for us, because obviously it's like you can't like leverage two values against a movie like this. But I feel like it really does open a lot of doors for discussion with like how like young boomers were perceived when they were coming of age, and like because we know how that story ends, it's like it's it's just it's just it's interesting. Much like Carrie Fisher and Paul Simon's marriage, it doesn't end well, right, and so so looking back on it, I think this will be a fun discussion. But yeah, I will say still kind of just like even criticisms aside of which I have, you know, plenty, I just think it's kind of a boring movie. Caitlyn, what's your history with this movie? I don't disagree. I saw it in college, probably for the same reason. Either I had to watch it for a film class or it was just one of those things it's where it was like, it's a great American class, It's like I need to have seen it. So I watched it probably when I was like a freshman or sophomore, and I only watched it that once. And I finally understood the reference that Wayne's World two makes at the end of that movie, because it's spoofs. You're talking high salutant brain stuff. Yeah exactly. I was like, oh, I now understand what Wayne's World two had been spoofing all along, and so that was my main connection to it, isn't it but heavily referenced in American Pie as well, like Stiffler's Mom. Like I feel like there's like Mrs Robinson references in regards to Stiffler's Mom an American Pie another feminist classic. Obviously, I don't remember if it right. I don't remember if it is like directly referencing it or if it's just like homage kind of thing. Couldn't I can't say, but um, yeah, I mean this movie certainly has a major cultural influenced the whole like plastics thing, Like I kind of forgot about that that. Yeah, like it's I mean, this movie is super influential. I had a good time reading about the production history and like sort of how because there's just there's a lot of interesting production stuff going on as well. Ultimately, yeah, this movie, uh is well, we'll get into it in just a second. It's not my fav really at all. I do feel like there's like interest. I'm trying to think of nice things to say at the beginning. I love Anne Bancroft, I love Katherine Ross, I love Mike Nichols. I think the cinematography is interesting at times and other times maybe not so much. So maybe that wasn't nice. I think there's some interesting editing choices. I think, yes, some of the montage. The montages are fun. You know what one thing I was thinking and I was like, maybe is this ground zero for this trope. Do you remember when we were like, for whatever reason, we did a couple of coming of age movies. They were like me of age movies about young women swimming pooling the swimming pool. At Yes, I had the same thought that was this where the swimming pool like rich kid goes into a swimming pool to really think about the fact that they're an adult. Now vibe is that? Do think maybe this movie pioneered that trope? Perhaps Wow, because it happens in what happens in eighth grade, it happens in anything, It happens in Ladybird, it happens in something else, not necessarily a rich it's not always a rich person, but it happens that a person with a pool's house. It's a white person going underwater to reflect about their past, present in future. Now, what the hell is that all about? I get I get it. It's a metaphor. It's a metaphor um. But I was like, maybe this is the where it started. Could be question mark. I don't we don't really know about many years that came before this because we're just really young, so kind of hard to say, um, what was happening? Yeah, but yeah, I think this is like this is wild too, because it was like putting me in my my caffy act cast bag of just like wanting to talk about second wave feminism and like the you know, complicated politics of second wave feminism and also this movie coming out before Roe V. Wade another. Just lots of things to discuss, so shall we get into it. Let's do it. Here's the recap. We meet Ben Braddock played by Dustin Hoffman. He is returning to Los Angeles. Ever heard of it? He's twenty years old? Question mark, he's thirty years old. Okay. I learned about this from at the time of scholarly journal Wikipedia. That yeah, Dustin Hoffman was just shy of his thirtieth birthday when filming this movie. There's six years apart, and Bancroft was thirty five when this movie was shot. And Bancraft absolute fucking legend. The casting for this was weird because it was like they clearly I feel the makeup choices were to make her look older, But when Mike Nichols was given the opportunity to cast older actresses, he said no, And You're just like, but what I mean? I love a Bancraft. I feel like she is so amazing in this role. But then like he could have cast Ava Gardner and you're just like, so why not do that? It boggles the mind. We can't ask. Oh, maybe it's because you know, there's a huge bias in Hollywood against older actors who are women. Maybe I totally yes, and I feel like it does. But it like speaks to that moment specifically too, because I feel like now it's kind of like a bit more of a reverse where it's like I cannot think of many modern examples of a younger actor, especially a woman being aged up. I feel like it happens in the reverse all the time, and like your whole thing with like every woman needs to look about thirty seven years old rule. Yeah, I feel like Sandra Bullock, who is sixty or nearsick like she's some age an icon, a legend, I mean, an absolute icon. She's older than you would probably think she might be, but I feel like she's still playing roles for like forty year old women early four. Yeah, it does feel like and this certainly wasn't, as far as I know, a thing in the sixties. I just thought it was interesting that, like, there's obviously, I mean, in the casting process, the writing process, a ton of sexism at play here. But I just it was like it was a it was a flavor of sexism I hadn't seen in a while. I was like, wow, aging like it almost feels like and I don't have I don't this is my working through this in real time, but like it feels like, Okay, well I I literally refused to have an actor over forty on screen, but I need a forty ish year old character, So let me age up a woman in her mid thirties. And you're just like so much work for what? Like it's just I mean, it's all a lot of work. And to be clear, we're not saying that, like, you know, any actor over forties should you know, like if if as far as like cosmetic surgery goes orything is still look younger, like live your life. But I do feel like there you can't ignore the fact that there is that pressure now for anyways women aging. We can't have it. It's against the law. It's immoral and illegal. Yeah it's not right. Uh okay. So Ben Braddock is Dustin Hoffman. He is returning to Los Angeles after finishing college. His parents are throwing him a like welcome back party with all of their family friends and none of his friends that are his age. Anyway, I don't think he has any friends, I mean, which is well, we'll talk about that, but like, yeah, I don't I don't think I think that's one of benjam means problems he doesn't have friends could be so despite him doing very well in college, he expresses all these anxieties and doubts. Shout out to the movie doubt about thank you for that. Of course, he expresses all these anxieties about his future. And that's when a family friend is like plastics and Ben is like okay. Ben gets away from the party and goes into his room where Mrs Robinson played by and Bancroft. I've heard of her, I've heard of her another family friend. She comes in thinking it's the bathroom. They chat for a moment, and then she asks Ben to drive her home, which he reluctantly does. She then invites him in to her house under the pretense that she's scared to go in alone in the dark. He reluctantly goes in. She's offering him a drink. She's really trying to keep him there. We're in a danger zone. Oh yeah, what is this top gun? Because danger zone alert the way that I do pretty clearly remember how I didn't remember the specifics, but I remember like what happens towards the beginning of the movie, obviously, because that's where all the famous lines of the movie are kind of in the first ten minutes, but it does make the rest of the movie extremely difficult to talk about because it starts with, well, let's let's get to it, I suppose. So she's not taking no for an answer. He's trying to leave, and then he's like, Mrs Robinson, you're trying to seduce me, aren't you? And she's like, no, I'm not. I mean I'll go hey, and then there's the shot of him like framed around her leg and it's it's iconic but headless woman of Hollywood Hannon right exactly. So she denies trying to seduce him. But then and then she shows him a portrait of her daughter, Elaine, who is close to his age. Is that a rich person thing? Or is this movie like Weirdo where they're like, yeah, I have a had a painting commission of my daughter. It's in her bedroom. They're like, why don't I have a painting of myself in my for It's it's interesting, I don't know what rich people are are doing, Like, is that a sixties thing? Is that a rich people thing? Is that a pervert thing? We don't know. We simply don't know. So Mrs Robinson is all like, no, I'm not trying to seduce you, and then she does get naked in front of him. Ben continues to be very uncomfortable and he runs out, but on his way out of the house, he runs into Mr Robinson. Mrs Robinson's her husband, and he's like, Ben, you should relax, take go, load off, have a few flings. Even you're young, get out there and fuck. Every adult in this movie thinks Ben is so interesting, amazing, irresistible, and you're just like, I'm lost, I'm lost, what are you talking about. It's so funny because I do think that, like, as I was watching this movie, it his character, which we'll talk about, you know, but like his character scans to me the way that like back in the day, boomers would talk about millennials, where it was like you're just moving back in with your parents, you're so entitled, you're mooching off the blah blah blah, which was like a fallacy. We were just um, you know, excluded from ever being able to own property, but and suffocating under our student loan debt. But sure we were lazy, came of age during a recession, but that the boomers caused. Sure, but fine, but it just is funny because Ben is doing the big that they would go on to say that we were doing. But he's actually doing the thing. He's like just hanging out by the pool every day and doing anything. He's living this like I would say it's hedonistic, but he's so boring that it's like, I can't even call it that in good his life seems creepy and boring. True. Well, yeah, I suppose let's continue. Let's um. So Ben considers this and then jumps in the swimming pool and has one of those swimming pool coming of age moments, which I guess causes him to change his mind. Has in a scoopa suit, which is interesting. Yeah, right, I think the first Usually it's just a bathing suit, but for him, there's some equipment involved. He's rich. He needed a whole breathing apparatus. Kind of funny. He needed to sit down at the bottom at the bottom of the pool for a long time and have a long think about whether or not he was going to have sex with Mrs Robinson. Yeah, that's how you that's how you know he had to think about it. Sco Okay, this movie has its moments. I didn't hate Dustin Hoffman falling into a pool in a scuba suit. There are some funny satirical moments that I appreciated, I mean, Mike Nichols Man, but those were only very small punctuation marks in an otherwise pretty insufferable movie. Anyway, Okay, So he changes his mind and calls up Mrs Robinson and invites her to the Taft Hotel where he is currently just hanging out at. They get a room. He's nervous and she's like, is this your first time? And he's like, um no, oh my god. He has this like I mean, and I do feel like there's at least some self awareness and commentary this. I want to believe that. Sometimes it's very unclear, but like whenever he's like his masculinity is questioned, he like like gets very angry, gets very angry, very upset, and I don't I don't like him. I don't like him. I think he's so he's like, no, I've fucked before. And then the lights go off and this is the start of a secret affair that they have. We get a montage of mostly just him being boring, which I know is like I think the movie knows he's like just kind of hanging out and being boring, but it's like it's just boring. But I think the movie is telegraphing to us, oh my gosh, look at this poor, rich white kid with his college degree and look how aimless he is. Don't you feel bad for him? And it's like, yeah, of course I don't, right, But it's like, but that's all that's like in retrospect, to like it is such a weird thing because I feel like there's similar vibes that at least I've gotten from like some Gen X teen movies, where it's like the underlying messages like my parents like give me anything I want, and I feel so suffocated when it's like when I when you like fast forward to generations that like, well that wouldn't be so bad, really what it? You know? Like it like rings super hollow and shitty in retros, But yeah, it's like I know that we're he's I just am like this character is unbelievably boring, to the point where when he gets to Berkeley and they're like, are you a like a rabble rouser? And You're like, are you kidding me? For the most boring man alive. He wishes he's literally just a garden variety stalker. Like, sorry, okay, so we get this montage. Also, meanwhile, his parents are on his case about what he's doing with his life and how do you spend your time, Ben, But they're also like, we get it. You should have a beer. You deserve it. You're awesome, you're amazing, But like, have you thought about going to school? No? Okay, And it's like these parents are absurdly chill, like everyone is rooting for him so hard. Yeah, and I'm sort of like kick him out. Truly. There's a moment where his dad is like, get off your ass and go to grad school. And then I'm over here like it is not worth the money right where it's like it's he's super privileged that like that is and it's it's like heavily applied that, like he's not going to pay for grad school and in the sixties, if mom, like why doesn't he just what is he even doing? Do you whatever? I just feel like it's it's fine to be, you know, I get like twenty one aimless, don't know what you want to do with your life? Fine, relatable, but you know, you gotta do something, you gotta do something like something and just you have every privilege and the just do something. Get into pottery, Ben, I don't know why I said pottery. Hey, you know that's that's something. It's something. Okay. So he's again just like lying in a in the pool most of the time, and then Mr Robinson comes over at some point and he's like, hey, my daughter Elaine will be home from Berkeley soon. You should take her out. Ben. Then I think a few months pass. The affair between Ben and Mrs Robinson is still going on. It's still secret. At one point Ben is like, hey, Mrs Robinson, can we have a conversation for once, and then she tells him about her unhappy marriage and how they only got married because she got gregnant with their daughter Elaine. I do kind of appreciate that she, I mean, the dynamics of this relationship there's a lot to discuss, but like I do kind of she does seem to know that. Intellectually he has a flop and and she's like, I don't want to have conversations with you. I don't need to know what's going on in your mind. D And You're like, yeah, based on my appraisal of this character. I know, I think that we're supposed to, like in that moment, find her like a little cold. But I was like, yeah, what does he have to what does he bringing to the table really, you know nothing? Yeah. Yeah. So then Ben jokes about taking a Lane out on a date, but and then Mrs Robinson is like, don't you freaking dare do that? And he's like, Okay, I promise I'll never take her out on a date, not after calling her a string of very mean things. And then also he like does this weird little gaslighting, like uh, a little a little swoop, it's a little swoop of gas where he does bring up he's like, oh what why why don't I go out with your daughter? Like and he's working with her. But then like two minutes later he's like, I didn't even bring this up. I was like, you fully brought it up. You sorry, that like triggered my like bad relationship brain where I'm just like you can't tell yes you did. He did, he did bring it up. Both of these characters are so manipulative. Okay, So Ben is like, I promise I won't take your daughter Elaine on a date, but then Ben's parents are pressuring him to ask Elaine out, and he has no choice, so he takes Elane, who we finally meet on screen, played by Katherine Ross. We were like, oh my god, Oh my gosh, Catherine, I love Stepford, I love Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. So he takes her out on a date, but he's an asshole about it, and he takes her to this like kind of strip club type place and she's like, what the funk, dude, and he's like, yeah, I see your point. He makes her cry and he assaulted dancer, and then he and then he surprised kiss. I wouldn't even call that. I feel like it was worse than a surprise kids, because she was actively in the middle of being like I It wasn't even just like, oh, there's a vibe and someone kisses without checking in. It was like she was just crying, Get me the funk out of here. I will not stop crying. She just literally was like, I'm not going to stop crying, right, and then he lunges at her. I don't know what that. I feel like it's it's more severe than a surprise kiss, though, because you're just like, she's in the middle of telling you how what a horrible time she's having with you. What if okay, maybe there's a spectrum here. What if it's like an attack kiss it kind of it? Like yeah, And it fully works because Elaine's character, as we'll talk about, needs a good therapist, and she makes no sense. Her choice is to me, I just I worry about her character is written in such a way that you're like, what, Elaine, what is going on in that head of yours? Oh? My god, we simply cannot understand. Okay, So they start having a nice time after he attacked kisses her. They you know, have a little meal together, they're chatting, they're bonding, although we don't really hear their dialogue, so we don't know what they're talking about, or what they have in common, or why they like each other, which is another huge problem I have with this movie anyway, But we we do hear Ben tell Elaine about an affair that he's been having with an older, married woman, although he obviously does not say that it's with her mother, you know, he says that she has a son. He just you know, lies, right, He also says, but don't worry it's over with this woman. And then he tells Elane that he really likes her and they make plans to see each other again. But Mrs Robinson does not like this, and she tells Ben to never see Elaine again, or else she will tell Elaine everything about her relationship with Ben. So Ben tells Elane first so that it comes out of his mouth, which upsets Elane and she screams at him to get out no ship. One of the things that I find just like absolutely mind boggling about this movie is that you never get a scene. You never get a feel for what Mrs Robinson and Elaine's relationship was like before Ben comes into the picture, and you even more mind bogglingly, don't get a good idea of what happens after instead of getting any idea of like what which would even if you're like in like sexist brain, like we need to be focused on Ben at all times. That would enrich his story to understand what's going on between the two of them, even if you're obsessed with him, it makes more sense to instead of having these long shots of him leering from the bushes, I just yeah, yeah, he literally just like inside of a plant to being like what's going on over there? And it's like, God, God, you boring criminal, you right, So he tells Elane the truth, but again she is very upset and she's like get out. And now he has lost both Mrs Robinson and Elaine. And then Elaine goes back to college at Berkeley Slash. Ben watches her leave because this is the point of the story where he starts heavily stalking her. He drives to Berkeley, he follows her around campus. He then moves there so he can continue stalking her. He stalks her all the way to the zoo, where Elaine meets up with this guy Carl, who she's seeing boyfriend like. And then Elaine comes over to Ben's place to confront him about why he's there, and then she says, by the way, my mom told me that you raped her, and he's like, no, that's not what happened, and then they're kind of they're arguing and things escalate and she screams, but then she calms down and then she's like, I don't want you to leave, and then she's also like I'm sorry I yelled, and like don't be there. Yeah, I mean the implications of around like false rape allegations that that you're just like very troubling. We'll circle back that. So then Elaine shows back up to Ben's place in the middle of the night and she's like kiss me, and then he's like, will you marry me parentheses tomorrow and she's like, I might, but I'm confused. First of all, not not that she should be breaking into his house, although at this point you're like, I'm just completely lock Like at this point, who knows what's going on? She you know, she's she's in his room. He rolls out of bed looking like his breath is foul. I felt that kiss in my mouth. Uh yeah, You're just like it's three in the morning, and this man's gonna taste like what yucky? Not good is the answer? Not good? Whiskey and garbage bad. Yes, he does drink a lot of bourbon throughout the movie. So she's like, I mean it's a type of whiskey and he so she's like, I might marry you, but I'm confused, and he's like, don't be confused. We're getting married, and then he continues to try to coerce her into agreeing to marry him. But then Mr Robinson shows up and he is furious and he tells Ben to stay away from his family. And then Ben finds out that Elaine left school to run off and marry Carl. So then Ben goes on a wild good chase to find her a k a. He continues to stock her up the coast of California. He finds out the church that they're getting married at, because she's getting married that day. The timeline also of this movie is absurd. Hard to say. Oh, we don't know they've only been on one date, for sure, that's what we know. That's the other thing. I'm like, how many dates have they been on? Because I think it's no more than two. I couldn't. I couldn't tell you what the second one was, unless her breaking into his house or him stalking her at the zoo counts as a second date. I just they go on the first date to the like burlesque strip show type thing, and then I think maybe he's just about to pick her up for a second date. Yeah, Mrs Robinson gets in the car before he can even go on the second date. Oh my gosh. And then he also charges into her room while she's not wearing clothes and she's like, stop, I'm not dressed. And then he's like, I need to tell you that I'm having sex with your mom. And she's like but then she's like, oh no, you're like, oh my goodness, goodness, Elane Oka lane. So he out of here. Elane. Yes. So he's driving to the church, but oh no, his car runs out of gas. So he takes his like track and cross country skills and runs the rest of the way. He burst into the church, he disrupts the wedding, and he in a lane, run out and then get on a bus and then they sit together on the bus. Wait, was this a big mistake? And then yeah, the expressions on their face are kind of like, oh what now I mean? And then that's the end of the movie. For for all this movie's fault, that last shot is still kind of cool if you forget everything else that happened, everything that happened before it true, but it's a cool it's a cool shot. Anyways. Uh, let's take a break, let's get out of here, and then we'll be back. Let's do it and we're back all right. Before we get into this movie, let's talk a little bit about the production. Let's talk a little bit about the context of this movie. So this is I feel like we're we're kind of in a very different way. But in terms of like the structure of this we're in kind of we're in a bit of a carey situation, I would say, because this is a movie that was adapted from a white male author by two other white guys and also a white guy director, which is why perhaps the women are not are not maybe making a lot of sense. No justice was done for their characters, particularly with and like, I don't like where Mrs Robinson's character goes, but she at least I can sort of track where she's for like half of the movie. Though for half of the movie, I understand where her head is at. By the end, I'm just like beats me. But anyways, Mike Nichols makes this movie called Her Willingham and Buck Henry adapted. They have comedy backgrounds, so we're the funniest names I've ever heard called or Willingham and Buck Henry. Buck Henry is kind of an icon in and also Mike Nichols and Buck Henry and Dustin Hoffman are all Jewish men, and this was like a time where Jewish comedians were along with like mel Brooks who gets married to Anne Bancroft. It's all this, this whole whatever thing. It's a big moment for Jewish comedy. It's just not a big moment for writing women. But anyways, I wanted to, you know, acknowledge that Dustin Hoffman and fuck him. But he pointed out that he was surprised that he was cast in the movie because he's Jewish, and then he pointed out that the negative reviews of this movie were often veiled and semitic. Yes, and like commenting on the size of his nose and his kind of like manner of speaking. So yeah, Worth acknowledging absolutely, and also that like this is just kind of you know, I don't know where she was, but Catherine Ross was like, yeah, I don't think he's hot enough to be my boyfriend, and you're like, okay, kind of iconic in a way. She does say that she's like, I think this love scene will be disgusting, but maybe she's just anticipating how disgusting and creepy Dustin Hoffmann is in real life an individual. Yeah, we don't know. Um So anyways, that's the background I think what is more interesting to discuss is, and we've sort of hinted at this already, the casting of Mrs row Benson and Ben they are only six years apart in age. There were a lot of actors who turned down the role of Mrs Robinson and Elaine because of kind of the nature of the story. This was like considered to be a pretty risky material at the time, Edgy and I guess whatever, just for acknowledgement, I guess I don't really feel here nor there about it. But like the concept of an older woman and a younger man having a relationship in movies and having it be explicitly sexual not really uh, something that was popularly discussed and not a dynamic that was seen in movies very often. Even today still you don't often see that absolutely And it's like, I don't think that this movie is a very good blueprint for it, but even like as a topic of discussion was not one that was being had. And there was also like generationally like this movie you like toward colleges, and that's like part of how it became really popular was they were specifically targeting young coming of age boomers basically, and you know, this movie is like coming out right around the time of the sexual Revolution, is taking place in California, around the sexual Revolution. Setting stuff in Berkeley is like very telling, and it's just like a very interesting time to be said. And then everyone said it was the greatest movie ever when it came out, and then later even our our buddy Roger Ebert reflected on the movie. I think it was like twenty years later and in the eighties and was like, you know what, maybe not my favorite after all. But at the time it was supposed to be like, oh, this is like the boomer movie, the peak of cinema. It was the highest grossing movie of nineteen sixty seven, with a hundred and four point nine million dollars worldwide at the box office, which adjusted for inflation, and these are numbers, um it grossed eight hundred and fifty seven million dollars. Okay, joker joker money, let's joker money. Yikes, Sorry, sorry for saying joker money. He's busy made more money than I don't know, not number money, than millions, not millions money, not millions money, kind of joker money, not millions money, but unfair yardstick, because that's that's real. Comedy. Um okay, jokey um so so okay, that's the history of this film. Obviously very telling that the two main actors, like the movie treats them as what would you guess, like twenty years apart in age, when in reality they were six years apart in age. The character Mrs Robinson says, I'm twice your age, and we know that he is twenty about to turn twenty one, so she's she's supposed to be as a character in her early forties. But again, Dustin Hoffman, the actor was almost there and and Bancraft was thirty five at the time of shooting. So yeah, not the age difference of the characters certainly doesn't happen, you know, is given kind of u Ben Platt and dear Evan Hanson vibes where you're like, no, you are not twenty years old. Give it a rest, okay, dook, let's talk about the movie. Yeah, so I will say that again because I saw this for the first time as someone I was around the age that Ben is supposed to be when I saw this. This was in like two thousand five or so when I watched this movie, and I don't know if it's just that, uh, culturally, I wasn't conditioned to notice very troubling coercive in stokersh behavior, or if I had just forgotten about it. But I did not remember how much coercion and stalking and just general creepiness there is in this movie because it's nearly NonStop. No one was talking about that in two thousand five. And I also think that, like it was still, like, you know, fifty plus years after this movie came out, like that was still like considered not completely inappropriate behavior by a lot of people. Right, this is how you romance someone. You exact gaslight them. You don't take note for an answer, You push, push, push, you stock stock stock. I mean that still happens in movies from the last ten years, Like you know, it's not two Kaul because I definitely didn't clock this movie as anything but boring when I first But I also feel like people still when they talk about this movie are just like, Hey, isn't it kind of wild that this movie is about a younger man and an older woman And isn't that kind of like a little weird but also hot? And that's the conversation about this movie. I kind of wonder when the last time they watched it is because I feel like when you do watch it, it's kind of like undeniable that a lot of it is like I don't know, but yeah, the the takeaway from this, I feel like it almost and this is like kind of thankfully not a popular term anymore, but like the cougar relationship like this was I feel like a real big like whatever pop culture like milestone for that. So okay, So just to start, like just to kind of track their relationship, I kind of want to go chronologically because going chronologically it's a disaster because from the beginning I do as I do think that like I mean, Mrs Robinson's unquestionably like manipulative and coercive with him, whereas she like knows that he is, you know, inexperienced, seems to sort of pick him out as like Okay, I want to have sex with this young man. It's not illegal. Like it's not even the age gap that the issue. It's the power dynamics where and her approach she like very again it's so she like calls out what's happening, and she is like, that's not what's happening right right, and then she literally traps him in her daughter's room, which we're also like, okay, Freudian nightmare, Um truly traps him in her daughter's room and like takes her clothes. I mean, and even I mean not to have any faith in the year nineteen seven. But if you reverse those dynamics, I feel like it is clearly wrong even then. But it's framed here as like kind of funny and kind of hot, which is like we've talked about that. I'm trying to remember what episode it was, but we're like, and now we're getting media that like challenges that idea that like, men cannot possibly be the victims of assault from from any agenda, but particularly from women because of how women are perceived as less powerful. And it doesn't matter what the power dynamics are, a man can't be assaulted because that would be emasculating and all that stuff. It just feels like this movie, you know, it is not inventing this concept, but certainly abiding by it. Yeah, she is like again just pushing, pushing, pushing, won't take no for an answer. He is very visibly uncomfortable, But like you said, I think his discomfort is more framed as like a well this isn't no means yes thing that and like it's not so much like you're exploiting your power over me to manipulate me. It's more like I can't be doing this because you're a family friend and what would my parents think? And that is like more it seems where his discomfort is coming from. And then a few scenes later he's like, well, your husband told me I should go out there and fuck so and you're available because you three yourself and me, Mrs Robinson, so let's do this, which like, okay, I get that, that's like supposed to be part of the like jokey nous of the movie. Is like, oh, you know, because whatever, sure, but yeah, like yeah, the the way that And again it's like I get that it's been fifty years, but it's been to and I still struggle with that scene there. It's just like it is jarring to watch in a modern context. And then what's what's interesting is like throughout the movie, the power dynamics between them do shift pretty considerably, but it doesn't start there. Definitely, like Mrs Robinson has the power of experience over him. She has the power of you know, she's a friend of the family and he doesn't want to be impolite to her sort of thing, like she does have the power during this first encounter, and she abuses that power during their first encounter. But then pretty quickly it's almost like implied that like once he's having sex, the power dynamic totally shifts in some way. It's not in every scene. It's complicated, and that scene where they're you know, sharing and arguing with each other, like that's where I feel like it is like genuinely murky and kind of like more of an interesting dynamic to explore. But like he just gets so so cocky right away. Is like he's having sex. The coerciveness of the first encounter like has no effect on him, and he's just like immediately like I'm Mr Funck now blah blah blah, like Mr fun it becomes and I'm just having sex one time and then being like I'm never going to get a job. You're like, what are you talking about? I don't need to work. I'm Mr Fuck, I'm Mr funk. I have a job. It's being Mr fuck And you're just like this is whatever he's he's he's going through something and he's a he's a disaster, but the power dynamic does shift between them in a way that it's like, I don't know, like truly some moments in this movie, I was like, I know how I am interpreting this, but I'm not sure how audiences at the time we're like there were certain because I felt like, maybe I'm giving the movie too much credit that the movie does seem aware in some moments. I thought maybe, but then countering with Mrs Robinson's behavior later, maybe not that the movie does seem somewhat aware that Mrs Robinson is ultimately more trapped than Ben is, where it's like, even though she has the power at the beginning of the relationship, unquestionably, as time goes on, you sort of learn more about like her background. She was essentially like culturally forced into a marriage she didn't want. She was called truly forced out of her education, and so she's already like four. I mean, she's a wealthy white woman, and it seems like she came from privilege if she was going to college in the sixties or in the whatever fifties in the first place. But even coming from considerable privilege, she's still very like trapped in the American housewife experience, and it seems like there's very little opportunity for her to get out of it, whereas Ben will flop his way through life no problem, like I have no doubt blopping his way around as Mr. Fuck I yea, But Okay, So I totally agree with you, and I think that that isn't a very that could have been explored way more thoughtfully with her as someone who is like trapped in this relationship, in this marriage and is like looking for an out and maybe finds one in this younger I that could be a very interesting story and an interesting dynamic to explore. But the movie frames her the way, because I want to examine how the movie thinks of her and actually treats her versus like how we want to talk about that too, because sometimes I'm like, there's a part in the middle where I was like, Okay, the movie understands that, like she's not a good person, but you can see, but then by the end, she's like a fucking cartoon villain and so you're just like right right, So it first it feels like, and maybe this is just my interpretation, but when we first meet her, I think the movie wants you to think that she's kind of this like lonely desperate woman, and she's desperate because she's older and her husband won't have sex with her, and that's why she's an alcoholic. You're literally and bankropt, like what do you what? And like and that we're supposed to like not even empathize with her, but like sympathize with her. We're like, oh, this poor pathetic right, even though she is like actively manipulating and coercing, we're supposed to be like, oh, well, that's just what pathetic people do, especially if you're like an older woman. Um. Then when she finds out about this blossoming relationship between Ben and her daughter, she pivots and becomes well not even I don't know if it's a pivot, but she basically just becomes this like jealous, shrewd type and then gets like scarier and scarier, and the movie wants you to be like and the movie frames her that way because it's like, I feel like, if you didn't stuff, like, you wouldn't put that scene in Torrential Rain, if you didn't want her to come off manic and like on the edge, like mascara dripping on, like making her look like scary, I mean, and that's I feel like that's like truly for her character, like the shark jump moment that like could have And again you're like, it's the sixties. There's no fucking chance this would have happened. And there's this whole argument for it's so like whatever. The late sixties has this reputation of being a sexual revolution, but if you look into it, it's a sexual revolution that generally benefited men, not to say that women weren't having a good time, and we love that for them, and they were like making huge games that would lead to rev way and all this stuff, but net benefit mostly men um which classic outcome. Anyways, there's a point where I wanted to believe because it's I. I also did not retain a lot of the specifics of this movie. I remember like the main points. But when she says like, don't date my daughter, you know, because of the time it came out, it's like, oh, I'm supposed to think that she's jealous of her own daughter, when that same reaction would have laid way more realistically for me if she was like, don't date my daughter because you're fucking weird, Because you're like Cepo, right, and then you could have the movie play out not exactly the same way, but like kind of similarly with her feeling that way of like stay a funk away from my daughter, stayed the funk away from my family, You are stalking my daughter, right, But instead the movie is like, no, she's jealous, and she's jealous of her own daughter. And sure she claims that she doesn't want Ben dating her daughter because she thinks that he's not good enough for her, but that's clearly not how she's characterized as as being. She's like just this jealous woman who went from pathetic to now she's scary and evil. It sucks. It's like such lost potential in uh strong set up for a character, Like there's so many issues you could have explored, but it was like for you know, guys feeling around in the dark for something they couldn't possibly understand, and then it's really frustrating. And then the nail in the coffin is when you find out that when Elaine goes to Ben at the apartment that he's renting, because he's renting that apartment so that he can more easily stalk Elaine and she's like, by the way, my mom told me that you raped her, and he sets the record straight because, to be fair, that is not what happened. But then you have this situation now where Mrs Robinson lied about having been assaulted, which statistically rarely does not happen, happen that often at all in real life, but because of this culture we live in and this perception that oh, when a woman or any survivor of rape or any kind of sexual assault comes forward and and says that this has happened, she's lying, and that's just popularly believed to be true. So yeah, let's let's unpack that because that I did not remember that at all either, and it is barely called Like okay, So first of all, the baseline is horrific because it's that she lies about assault, which, as you said, and as there's been a bitillion studies like that barely happens, and this is presenting it very matter of factly as like, well, yeah, she's a liar, and and in this case that is canonically true. So that's like again, just like you're like, okay, this movie has a very low opinion of Mrs Robinson, which is wild because there are more like it was just driving me up a wall, because it's like, there are moments where it feels like you start with like you should feel bad for this woman. Then there's a moment in like the middle where it's like, oh, you could actually empathize with this character, and then she turned while the evil. It's impossible to track, and I feel like I get so attached to those moments where you can really empathize with her, and it makes the back half of the movie just impossible. I mean, the whole movie is impossible. For the back half of the movie in particular, they're just like what is happening? Um? But on top of that, like, so she tells her family, does she tell her her husband that he also assaulted her, or because her husband says that he's divorcing her. I'm like, is he divorcing her because he thinks she was raped? Or was she honest with him and lied to her daughter. I couldn't tell. I don't think we know for sure, which is a very weird thing to not tell. These things need to be clear, Yeah, I feel like those conversations should have happened on screen or something that like, yeah, we need more clarity. There. We should see the Robinson's outside of Ben at any time, and I don't think it takes away from like and you're just walking around, Like I don't need to watch Ben's stock someone for five minutes. I can safely assume that's probably what he's doing. It's all I've seen him do. And but yeah, it's like I wasn't sure what she had told her husband, which feels like really important information to not know. I don't really see the like narrative upside of not knowing. And then with I know, we haven't even finished the Mrs Robinson conversation. But with Elaine it gets even more confusing because she understandably like her mother told her I was raped by Ben. Elaine has no reason to disbelieve, like she has no reason to disbelieve her mother. So she goes to see Ben very upset and confused. Also, I don't know why she's going to see him, but she does. Well, she goes to confront him, like why are you here? Is it because I'm here? And then he's like yep, He's like yeah, I love you. And then she's like, well, you know, my mom told me that you assaulted her. And then he doesn't even like offend himself, really, he just she screams because she's I mean understood, she's fucking confused and upset. And then the landlord shows up and it's like, Ben, you have to leave, which like fair, yeah, get he's he's like, something's not right about you, and it's like, yeah, you're You're right the landlord. And I can't believe I'm about to say this, but the landlord is the hero of this movie. It's just that that's muddled. It's it's that messy. But like so the landlord kicks about, but like I really can't trace what's going through her head, Like she sees him get kicked out, does perceive it as like, oh, it's my fault. He's getting evicted because I screamed because I fully believed two minutes ago that he assaulted my mother. But then by the time the door closes, she apologizes. And it's never explicitly stated that she no longer believes her mom, but all of her actions indicate that, for some reason, watching him get a did made her no longer believe her mother's rape allegations. I mean, he does kind of lay out the events of what we saw happen on screen, which I guess we are to believe that that is what happened. So he's like, no, I she came on to me and blah blah blah. But then yeah, Elaine just automatically believes him and then feels bad that his landlord is yelling at him. And then she's like, well, I guess we can get married now, I'll consider it. And that's married. It's like it's again, and this is like I don't even like having to entertain this situation, but this is a moment where like, if that is what the story wants to happen, you have to know what her relationship with her mom is like, like has her mom behaved deceptively towards her before? Is there any reason that she would be inclined to believe ben like a vague acquaintance over her own mom? Right, does her mom have a habit of lying and manipulating her? Does she know that her mom is cheated on her dad in the past, Like is there a certain either way you're The message in nineteen sixty seven is like, don't believe women with rape allegations, and and like that's just like a flop from the start like it's a nonstarter, but you you're given no information on like why her own daughter would believe this, Like and I and I do think that that like speaks to the I don't even know. It's it's so confusing because whatever we weren't there. It's like that could I guess I'll say it's like that could speak to the cultural moment of like how prevalent believing men over women was at that time. That's not hard to believe. But even so, we're in fucking Berkeley, California in nineteen sixty seven. She is a college student. You know, it's like she's in the middle of second wave feminism, and I'm supposed to believe that in the space of a scene she believes some guy she barely knows over her mom when she's like kind of in this like hotbed of second wave feminism, Like, I just don't buy it. I don't know some guy who she has been on one point one dates with, Like that was bad and most of it was her crying. It's just so I mean, it's like the fact that rape allegations were brought into this, it was just like so unnecessary truly complicates things. Immensely makes Mrs Robinson even more of a villain than we already were to believe she was, and then makes a Lane just seem like a character without two brain cells to rub together, like right, which I mean, let's take a break and then come back and try to make sense of this, and we're back one more thing about this, because yeah, I mean, I hope we're not coming off as like sounding like overly dismissive. It's just like it's really hard to talk about this plot point because it's like it's just so absurd in the way it's presented that it's hard to take seriously. It's because the character's behavior are just making no sense, and ultimately, I just I feel like my takeaway from that and the absurdity of how it's presented and the absurdity of how all the characters evolved react is it's almost presented like it's a throwaway thing, Like it's a throwaway plot point, which is something that for the most part, like I've no longer happens in media because rape is not a throwaway plat point. But we you know, this is the sixties and this is a time where you could show rape on screen and presented as romantic. This is a time that you know, culturally in the US marital rape was legal. Like there there's just there's a lot, there's a lot. But this movie is just like I think it's interesting for a movie that was presented as like cutting edge, progressive to introduce a plot point like this and unintroduced so abruptly, really speaks to like how how glad I am? I wasn't alive then I don't, right, because this moment in the movie is basically just presented as an obstacle to keep Ben and Elaine apart, because now Ben's desire is to be with Elaine, so now the movie has to present obstacles for them not to be able to be together. And one of these obstacles is this false allegation that I think we're meant to believe Mrs Robinson makes because she again is so jealous that he has chosen her daughter over her, that she's gonna do whatever it takes to keep them apart, because that's just how jealous and shrewdy she is. Like that's what we're supposed to believe, is an audience, Yeah, And I's like it's like, well, let me know if figure with this. It feels like a lot of the time like his stocking behavior is presented as like, well, they're forcing his hand. What is he supposed to do? They won't let him be with her, they won't let him see her, so he has to stalk. He has no Yeah, what choices he left with? And he's like, she doesn't want to be with you like she had, She's been in another relationship for months. It's implied like Carl of God, Ultimately, what happens to Carl, Probably he does a lot of damage on Wall Street is my guess. But Carl, I mean, you do feel for Car for a single for a single second, because he doesn't get whacked with a cross and he thinks he's at his wedding. Horrible day for horrible day for Car, just left at the altar, but kind of like assaulted by the altar. I haven't seen it before. Uh, just like the injury for Carl. But also he sucks. Yeah, I don't feel bad for Carl. Just Elaine needs to get out. Okay, So let's talk about Elanes choices, yes, and how they simply do not track at all. We've already touched on some of them. But she is written in such a way that she just makes whatever decision needs to be made so that Ben can get what he wants. No choices she makes. No her changing her mind about something is ever prompted by anything that makes sense, like after months of stalking her, which she calls out and it's like, why are you here? Is it because of me? And he admits to it, and then that is something that she's like, well, okay, it is not like now that I know you, you must be in love with me. If you're if you went through all the lengths to come here and stalk me, like, that must mean you really like me and and and that's cool and I like that and and so now I'm going to consider marrying you. And then when they go from like being on bad terms to her coming around for again reasons that make no sense, he starts coercing her into marriage and he's like, let's go get our blood test, let's do this tomorrow. But but like what you've been on one date and to the point where it but at this point it's interest because it's like originally again it is very like the classic I'm going to wear her down thing, because at first it seems like she explicitly does not want to be stalked. She's very upset about it. She believes that he has assaulted her mother, Like yeah, he's the last person she wants around. But then because she believes him over her mom for reasons we don't understand, and reasons that are not we're not meant to understand. It's supposed to be like implicit for some reason, because oh well, Ben's a lead character and Mrs Robinson is a woman of her forties, so she's evil, like that's why. But by the end of the Stocking behavior, the behavior hasn't changed. She just likes it now and it's like funny to her now and she's like, oh I could I could marry someone else blah blah blah. And but it's weird because it's like she still seems annoyed with him, but it's like, but now it's like it's flirty stock You're like she jokes about it, she says, so he's like following her around everywhere she's going on campus, saying marry me, marry me, marry me. It's like the part of the arrest of development, marry me, Like can you just like can you, Like, literally, I feel like I sound like such a boomer. We'rene but I'm like, get a josh, like, what are you doing? So, oh my god. He's trying to coerce her into agreeing to marry him tomorrow. And it's not just like can we get married some days, He's like, let's do this tomorrow. And then she says, as a kind of a joke, why don't you drag me off if you want to marry me so bad? And he says maybe I will. Like now they're joking about right there, he's been stalking her, and and then she's like, well, okay, I might marry you, but I have to talk to Carl first, because I also told him that I might marry him. So this is just a female character written by men who has written in such a way that she will just agree to marry any guy that enters her life. So I have questions about that again, and I think that I'm I mean, okay, that's oversimplification. But again I was going into like Jamie Headcannon world of like what if a woman had been involved in a second of the writing process, and and what what what mysteries could have been unlocked? I am curious how aware the movie is. I mean, I'm I'm gonna operate from a baseline of note based on this entire discussion. But I do think it is interesting and kind of telling that it doesn't appear that anyone in the movie recognizes that the daughter is making her fate is similar to her mom's to the point where, like, I mean, she's not she's she's not forced out of her education because she's gregnant. She almost opts out of her education to get married, which was a very real pressure then. And I also feel like you do get a little bit of class commentary. Point of university is to find a suitable husband. Rose already has that, and that was fifty years five years before this, And but like, and I do think that there is, like, whether it's like superintended or not, some class commentary there of like, you know, rich women only go to college so that they can find a suit, you know, they can marry a rich man. There is a level. And I think that that's why the parents are so invested in, Like it seems creepy because it is, but like the parents are very invested in these two rich kids marrying each other to like maintain class and like that's a very real thing. This movie might be sort of aware of that. But I just wondered because it's like, it does seem like Elaine is like her fate will be similar to Mrs Robinson's, Like, and I do think the movie acknowledges that, especially based on how very at the very end, yeah, exactly, where like after that initial excitement wears off where they're like, t he I just ran away from a wedding and we got on a bus and she's like, wait a second, who are you there? Their faces drop and yeah, I think they're both realizing like this horrible mistake that they've made. And I would hope especially Elaine is like, what did I do? It was not a mistake for her to run away from her wedding with Carl, because also she definitely should have done that anyway. But I just hope she's like, can you drop you off at Berkeley? Please? I have to finish my bachelor's degree right what a wild weekend? Um, please bring me back to school. Um. Yeah, Because it's like I do I totally agree. Where it's like it's one of the most famous parts of this movie is that they clearly realized that they've made a mistake at the end, But I guess I'm more questioning the specific of like does she realize it is similar to what happened to her mother specifically, I'm here, you know that one interaction, the one interaction you see these two women have is Mrs Robinson yelling like she's fucking Jaffar. Like she's like, it's too late, like you know, oh yeah, like Ursula, name any sissy renaissance villain. The sun has set, and she's like reas into a big gass octopus, like it's very villainous. It's too late, it's not a loving it's too late. And then Elaine says not for me, and I'm like, but your but you're you're tacitly agreeing to marry the biggest loser you've ever met, which is what Mrs Robinson had to do. But she but I mean, she had fewer choices than Elane, and it's like, a Lane, what are you doing? Like Mrs Robinson. It's heavily implied in the scene that I think she's presented most empathetically and has the most self awareness around women's issues for her generation. Was like she got pregnant, and the options are sorry, what word did you say? She was heavy with greg? Thank you? She got she got grant it in the car, so she gets gregnit in the car. And her options societally are Mary big greg or you know, live in shame, and like, there are very few options available to her that she can't have an abortion, certainly at that time, she can't not legally, not legally, and and even if she were able to access abortion as a fairly privileged woman there, you know, you would carry that stigma throughout your life. And like, I do feel like the movie presents how she was given no choice and kind of like pushed into this loveless marriage, which does make you more empathetic for like, she wants to feel seen and validated physically because she and her husband are not a good sexual match, but she's stuck with him, and like, that is a really interesting story to present, and like a really interesting generational conflict to present. But then it just totally dropped, Like I just drop That scene is so interesting to me because it completely drops to the point where I don't even know why they bothered, you know, like and then and then it's it's as if the movie says, well, yeah, of course this wasn't going to be sustainable. And when a more age appropriate woman comes along in a lane, well obviously that's going to be a better match. But because we barely see Ben and Eline interact, we don't know why they're into each other. Most of their interactions are wholly negative, right, and like what do they have in come? There's that scene where there's like a car full of loud people next to them and they're like shut up, and then so they like I kind of thought that was like funny that they did that, but that I was also like, just like I guess then like Ben puts the convertible top on his car, it's the sound of silence, Caitlins. But rather than us hearing the conversation between Ben and Elane then and give the audience a chance to be informed about, you know, what they might have in common or what why they're into each other, we don't hear their dialogue and we just continue to hear the loud teena angers in the car next to them, and it's like it's because and also like it's I'm not even you know whatever. We're not asking that these women be perfect, no, absolutely not, and it's not even you know, it's by no means off the table to have a child make the same mistake that their parents made and not realize that's something that happens pretty frequently. It is like a topic that's worth exploring. But it just like seems like the movie like it doesn't even really register that that's what they know, that Elaine is making a mistake and that being with Ben is a mistake, and that Ben is my interpretation of Ben's behaviors. He basically asks her like he does get like forced into taking her on a date, but then I feel like he keeps pushing it almost as revenge against Mrs Robinson more than out of a genuine love for Elaine, which you would think would outrage Mrs Robinson on the basis of her daughter's life is going be fucked up. But no, it's out of you know, strikeful revenge, you know, over for what for Mr? Fuck From I don't think so. Yeah, the satire is present, but it's not clear enough, And it would be more clear if we got more interaction or really any interactions between Elaine and her mother right in, like some kind of awareness around like the amount of stuff that could have been cleared up in the space of a few scenes with them will never know because it's like it is, right. It would be interesting to see this movie from Elaine's perspective because it's really hard to connect the dots. Here's a joke that I've been trying to figure out how to wedge into the story that isn't going to land. But don't be so sure. What if that's what Swiss Family Robinson is about. We get the perspective, and I don't know what that is. Thought's just fairly know what it is. Either it's it was a show maybe, or maybe it was a movie. I don't know. It was some media. I was thinking of Little Debbie Swiss rolls Swiss Robinson. I want to say it was a show in some decade about this family who like Swiss. I think they got shipwrecked. I want to say they were probably Swiss, but I don't remember. They got shipwrecked on an island and then they like built this whole like jungle gym and like out of treehouses. It's just like a treehouse situation. I might not be remembering this correctly. Let me just do a quick google. What you're saying kind of reminds me of something different. But the box Car Children remember them? Yeah, yeah, sure. Swiss family Robinson is in nineteen sixty film okay about oh yeah. When their ship gets damaged on route to New Guinea, they take refuge on a deserted island, and the Robinson's lived to learn in the wild, and they have various adventures and build an impressive house in a tree. Okay, that sounds kind of fun. However, while island life is full excitement, the question of whether to return to civilization looms interesting. Okay, let's that. Did you ever read Box Car Children? Um, I don't know that I ever did. I feel like those books were on my shelf as a kid, but I don't know if I ever picked them up and read them. I liked them, but I do remember if I'm bars Car Children had sound off. If you remember, my memory was I was disappointed because the first they're like orphans, and through some sort of series of unfortunate events, let's say, they do have to live in a box car temporarily. But I went into the series because there's like a million of them, the books, not children. I went into them being like, oh, this is gonna they're gonna always they're at the box car children. They're gonna keep living in the box car. They're gonna travel from place to place. They only live in the box car for the first book. Oh well, I mean that's good for them. I think it's good for them. But you were like, I want to know about these box car children living in these in this box car for the rest of their dayn lives. I was just more interested in where the box car was going to go. I thought it was gonna be sort of like a little travel kind of adventure. They'd go from place to place in the box car. It's just not how this that's not The series went in a different direction, and I can I can respect that sure that that happens anyway. The female characters in this movie are written in a way that's very frustrating, pretty inscrutable. Their choices make no sense in the case of a Lane or they go from athetic to evil in the case of Mrs Robinson. And with Ben, I feel like we've called we've addressed most of his behavior. I think the thing that we have not gotten around too that I was truly I did not remember it at all, and I was struck was when he told his parents that he was getting married to Elaine and then slowly was like, but I haven't asked her and doesn't know, and she doesn't like me, by the way, and it's tomorrow and now I'm taking your car to stock her in Berkeley, and you're just like, oh my god, to the point where I was like, well, at least the parents also seem completely confused as to what the funk is going on. But the parents are also like so so supportive of whatever their weirdo son wants to do that they don't whatever. I just it does. It does give me gen x, Like you understand, Mom. Meanwhile, Mom is like in love with you, would do anything for you, would die for you, and You're just like you're stifling me. I'm like, oh my god, she literally just bought you a car, but you a car. She didn't make you get a job, Like what what are you? God? I'm feeling like a real auntie right now. Okay, um, but that scene just absolutely blew my mind. And I know that that scene is supposed to be funny, which I did laugh, but it was because I was nervous because I'm afraid of him. I'm afraid of the character Ben Pp or whatever his name is. Did he freaks me out. He makes me really uncomfortable. Um yeah, okay tookey. A scene that I did genuinely laugh at was one of the many times Ben is floating in the pool at his house. He can't stop, he can't stop, won't stop. His dad, Kendall, comes up and he's like, you can't just be floating in the pool all the time, son, you gotta go out there and make something of yourself. And then he's like, I want to bet. And his dad's like, are you gonna go to graduate school or what? And Ben says either like no or I don't know. And then his dad is like, well, then would you mind telling me what those four years of college, what all that hard work was for? And then Ben's like you got me, And I'm like, ha ha. That is funny because it's like college is a scam, and there are moments where you're like this movie feed like is not completely unself aware like they. It does make a couple of points about like whatever, like the aimlessness of rich kids. I feel like is at some point in the movie feels pretty cogent. But then it, you know under I mean I don't know. I mean maybe that does sort of come through throughout because by the end, you're just like, oh, Ben has made yet another selfish, reckless rich boy decision by like doing this, but we are supposed to be rooting for him, but I do that, Like I feel like that got like a percentage of the way there, because he is a privileged, aimless fuco who doesn't know what he wants and will flop his way through life. And like again, which is like they start to explore it, but like things don't make enough sense for you to really be able to explore that topic with any sort of thoroughness or effectiveness. But I guess you do, you do. I guess to the movie's credit, you do get the vibe that it's like this person has so much privilege that they literally don't know what to do with it, and they're just making reckless decisions that are hurting other people. Um, he has no understanding of other people. He has really no interest in other people. And I do feel like the movie is at least aware of that. Um, he's a very very selfish person. And it's like, I don't even think this movie is bad. But I just I just I just think it's like so up its own butt in a weird way, Like I just don't it's so of its time that I get it's really hard to interact with. Right, there were a lot of things where I'm like, yeah, Lane is just agreeing to marry any guy who goes on one date with her. But I'm like, is that just how it was in the sixties, Like maybe there I feel like there is a way that you could acknowledge that, Like there's a way that if that is a because I do like that definitely was a pressure that existed in the sixties. And maybe if that's asking too much of a movie, because it's like, if you were watching it in the time it came out, you would have just known that, so that is completely possible. But I just I don't know. Maybe I have this complete misunderstanding of Central California in the nine but it was like not making sense to me. If this happened in like Idaho, it would make more sense to me than if it was happening in like this hotbed of activism. It just like wasn't. But also it's like I think that you very well may be right it's like if you were if you were there, you would know like people. I mean, I know people like I know that my mom had friends who dropped out of college to get married. Like there. You know, It's definitely was a thing throughout most of the twentieth century. I just don't understand why. I just don't think we know Elaine well enough to have the context for why it's happening for her slash at all. We don't know her really at all. No, do we know what she's we don't mean, to be fair, we also don't know what Ben majored in. That is true, I don't think so. Maybe and maybe the message there is like your education is pointless, which not completely wrong. Um So, I mean I'm pro education, to be clear, I'm just anti why does it cost sixty dollars a year to go to school? And I'm also uh anti I'm against yeah, overpriced education for things that you could just learn for free or something. Well, it's just I mean, I'm god whatever, Like my Alma matter offers a comedy major, which I think is straight up the financial exploitation. You do not need to pay two dollars to go to an open mic. Famously you have to pay like, you know, twelve dollars at the beginning, because they do make you, you know, have two narrow ganthets or whatever. But like get a fun whatever that's not but you know, get a degree for things you need degrees for, certainly not a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University, though I was, you know, most of the arts you could probably skip it um or you know, go to in affordable university. Okay, I wanted to talk a little bit the I think that, like the last topic I wanted to discuss was Mrs Robinson's sexuality and how it is presented and the ups the downs, the in betweens because we we've sort of, I mean we we had no choice but to really get into the weeds as to like what the characters are thinking, and I do. I will fully acknowledge to any of our listeners who are older than us that there might be generational things that we are missing here. Absolutely, But I also think that there's just a lot of stuff in this A lot of the women's specifically motivations don't make a ton of sense, even if the realities of the era are true, Like there's no need to vilify Mrs Robinson with no context whatsoever. There's no reason to not show the mother and the daughter's relationship. There's no reason that we don't know what Mrs Robinson told her husband. Like the movie just doesn't really have interest in many facets of its women. But I do want to discuss it because for a character, not an actor, that for a character that's over forty and a woman, I feel like it was edgy at the time to even present her as sexually viable. Certainly, and again that's going to be a double edged situation because her sexuality is it is like presented as like it's clear that like Ben desires her. There's no doubt that, like they are attracted to each other physically. He's like like he says, I find you the most attractive of all of my parents, parents friends. So he has to like put a little kind of a funny line, like you know, terms and conditions on it. I do think that is kind of a funny line. But like, yeah, I I feel like we've talked about so many movies where women past whatever age it is for the era it's coming out, and their bodies past a certain age are grotesque and scary, often used for horror and all and all this stuff that is not how Mrs Robinson's body is you. She is presented as a very viable, desirable woman, but then there also are these moments where we're supposed to feel badly for her. But it's weird. I feel like I do like the core idea of like a movie in the late sixties presenting a woman over the age of like thirty who's like married and like cheating on her husband and like all the stuff you didn't see very often, and still presenting her as like this sexy, complicated person at the beginning of the movie. But but again, it like is kind of a zero sum game because of how coercive she is at the top, and then how villain is she is, And so there's just like there's twenty minutes where I'm like really rooting for her, right and and if you're if you're able to see pasted the way the movie wants you to look at her and just kind of in which I think you can totally and you know, that's how I'm reading the movie, but right it's it's so limited. And then she turns into like a sea witch. She literally it's it's too late. I think that is what Earth said. It is literally it's too and then yeah, and then Elaine turns back into a mermaid. It's a whole thing. But no, I I agree that it's it's you know, not nothing. That this is a movie, at least in part, about a relationship, a sexual relationship between an older woman and a younger man, and one that is not because we've examined many relationships in movies on the podcast where it's like illegal or like, don't even get me started about liquorice, pizza, you know, but um, this one, it's certainly I think society would consider it taboo because she's like old enough to be his mom. But he is a full adult, a young adult. You know, he's only twenty or twenty one, but you know he's he's able to make his own choices as a legal adult. So yeah, it's not even it's not the age gap that troubles me. It's it's all about her approach to entering this relationship with him. And but so if if the movie eliminated that, which I wish it would have, if it was just about a woman who yeah, like I'm trapped in this marriage, in this sexless marriage with a man who doesn't desire me, or appreciate me, or love me, or you know, any of the things that you want out of a relationship. I am seeking love and affection and validation elsewhere like this is a very relatable thing for a lot of people, or even like I am seeking a no strength attached sexual relationship. Also fine, right, right? Could have been. Then it's like, I feel like there's an alternate version of this movie where they're like, I just feel like they're sexual experience, even in like the traditional like tropes of sexual experience doesn't track where it's like you would I think, and it does. I mean, we don't have proof that Mrs Robinson has done this before, but I feel like we're supposed to believe that she's been cheating on her husband for sometime with certainly within the realm of possibilities. Yeah, she's more she's way more experienced than he is. So the fact that she's the one that ends up getting jealous and it's not like him. And again, this is not a universal experience, but if like it's often portrayed, and I don't know it was, it was my experience. I know, it's some people's experience that like the first person that you have sex with sometimes like you have you developed a attachment to that you want a relationship with them. It would like the dynamics like don't even makes sense a track very well, right, and now it's just so this could have been a story that is just far more empathetic to the women in the narrative and just like more thoughtful and interesting. But instead it just like leans into the trope of older women are desperate and pathetic and if they want sex, then look, that's scary and evil beware, which the movie feels differently about at different times. It's very confusing. By the end, it's like she's evil to have ever wanted sex. But then oh, pp like even can I can I unfortunately share a Roger Eber quote? But I do think it's an interesting one. Yeah please? So he I referenced this earlier. I have the quote now, So he like praised the hell out of this movie when it came out in nineteen sixties seven, then he covered it again in nineteen nine seven, what the year Titanic came out. I know, don't you have anything better to do? Watch Titanic? Watch Titanic, but but I thought his reflection was interesting. So here it is, um quote. It comes out at a specific time in the late nineteen sixties when parents stood for stodgy middle class values and the kids were joyous rebels at the cutting edge of the sexual and political revolutions. Today, looking at the graduate, I see Benjamin not as an admirable rebel, but as a self centered creep who's put downs of adults are tiresome. To know that the movie once spoke strongly to a generation is to understand how deep the generation gap ran during that extraordinary time in the late nineteen sixties. Unquote, So you know, a moment of clarity from our old friend Roger. I think that was a pretty thoughtful reflection. And also the the other thing that's like left out of this movie that you would think would be but like just historically, you're like, why is like the war not being discussed at all, like all this stuff that like it it was such a politically charged time, and it does give the movie like the illusion of timelessness, but it does feel like there's these huge context holes that aren't there that you would think would be on a twenty one year old mind, Like I just for a movie that's supposed to be about like this radical generation, it is like pretty outside of the class commentary, pretty like a political and its views like it's not really saying when people thought it was. I don't. I don't know, or maybe it was saying something at the time and it no longer scans for modern audiences. I don't really know. I just know that it's a it's a baffling watch for me same. I just can't be asked to sympathize with an extremely privileged like white man who is a stalker and a creep. But again, it's like unfortunately not the last, not the first or the last character that we've been asked to make that leap of faith with it, and then people at the time we're happy to do it. It's just fucking Joker money els. I mean, I don't want to talk about Joker, not today. Um. Look, I love Catherine Ross. I didn't I didn't know. Did you know that she's married to Sam Elliott? I did know that, But that's one of those things I learned and then I forget, and then I learned it again like a year later, and I really like her. Um, okay, joke. Do you have anything else you wanted to touch on? I don't believe so, okay, So this movie does not pass the bucketle test. I don't think, um, that one interaction between the two of them, But I think that Ben is so heavily the subtext of that, and marriage to a man is so heavily the subtext of the ursula aerial interaction that I don't count it. Can you refer to that scene that you're talking about, because I don't even remember an interaction between them. I know there's a scene where they're like in the same house. It's at the wedding. It's a it's a it's the last interaction before Elaine and Ben run away. It's um, Mrs Robinson grabs Elaine's arm, says it's too late, Elaine says, not for me, and then Mrs Robinson starts hitting her. Do you remember now? Yeah? Very cool? Um, So that definitely, And the only other time women are in the same room is at the parties. And then I don't even think we know, like what Ben's mom's name, and we don't know who those people are. We never see them again, and they are all talking about Ben yeah, Like, do we even know what Mrs Robinson's first name is? Like I want to just check to see it. We know you don't. You never find out what her first name is. It's it's all Mr and miss it. Yeah, I'm I mean, I'm not inclined to give this movie any leeway or benefit of the doubt. It doesn't it doesn't pass. Everyone's talking about Benjamin all the time, and it's exhausting. And with that in mind, let's let's pivot over to our metric. The nipples scales zero to five nipples based on looking at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens. Um gonna give this movie. I will give it a half nipple, Okay, And I'll give it that instead of zero nipples, because I do think it was a cool choice to tell a story and you know, adapt a major motion picture which would become the highest grossing movie of that year, a story about a kind of like taboo subject in an older woman and a younger man. And you can make an argument that it is not appropriate or like the age gap is too big, you can make an argument that it is not. It's it's fine because they're both legal, consenting adults. I understand kind of both sides, not to be a centrist over here, but um ok, Mr Biden, thanks for your insight. But I appreciate any any story that is willing to explore kind of like a cultural taboo around that, especially when older women's sexuality is so often demonized and made to seem grotesque and horrific and scary, which this movie ultimately does to some extent. But there's that interesting twenty minutes where where I think maybe it and then it's right. But but the president had been set of her being so pushy and coercive that you kind of did see that going in that direction. But I so I appreciate this movie, you know, exploring that topic. It mishandles it, and it mishandles everything else, and it asks us to, you know, root for a character who spends the back half of the movie doing nothing but stalking his love interest, the front half of the movie being the most boring man alive, like sitting around in a pool all day, just lapping up his luxurious life. But I agree with you. I do agree with you that it's like this movie is tackling a topic that no one else was tackling in a major movie, especially successfully. So it's a real bumber then it bumb Yeah, so I'll give it half interesting that an attempt was made, right, So I'll give it a half to bolt for that. It's also an extraordinarily white movie. Um, we're in fu California during Like, it's just it's it's absurd that it's as what it so, Yeah, one half nipple and I'll give it. I'll split it between and Bancroft and Catherine Ross. I'll meet you there. I think half a nipple. Uh, you know, an attempt was made, and I do like that the movie gives you more information about Mrs Robinson's backstory than anyone else in the movie, including Ben, but then leverages that against her for the remainder of the movie for reasons that are absolutely baffling to me. Um, I yeah, I mean we we've we've talked about it quite a bit. I feel like there's just like there's a lot of interesting potential in this movie that I didn't just go nowhere, just completely undercut where it could have gone. So I yeah, ultimately very bummed out by most of the creative choices in this movie. I love and Bancroft I love Katherine Ross. Their characters deserved better, Their characters deserved to talk to each other, and maybe even makes sense, so I'll split it between them as well. I don't see myself watching this movie again. Nope. Well to you, Mrs loft Funcle. Here's to you, Mrs der Funkele Jesus loves you more you will know. Oh my goodness, thank you so much. Um yeah, so that's the graduate. Um. Sorry, sorry, if you're mad again, argue with the wall. We're right kid, yea hey, give us a little follow on Twitter and Instagram. At Bachtelcast, you can scoot on over to our Patreon on a k a Matreon at patreon dot com slash becktel Cast, where you'll get to bonus episodes every single month, plus the entire back catalog of well over one hundred bonus episodes that you can't find anywhere else. And right now it's Jamie's birthday. Months and what are we gonna do? None of your business, I guess I always have to tune in and find out we're gonna have some fun. We're gonna have some fun. I can't wait. And you can check out our merch of few, so please at t public dot com, slash the Bechtel cast and with that, Kaitlin, do you want to get on a municipal bus with me and have some regrets? I would love to, Jamie, Do Do Do Do Do Do? Hello? Darkness movie a dir Funcle classic. Love it alright, Bye bye bye