Cosmic chemistry: Ewine van Dishoeck shares her zeal for astrochemistry

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Hello, and welcome to this episode of the

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Physics World Weekly Podcast,

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which is sponsored by the Kavli Prize.

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I'm Hamish Johnston, and I'm very pleased to

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be joined by the astrochemist

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and Kavli Prize laureate,

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Uwina van Dishoek,

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who is professor emeritus of molecular

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astrophysics

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at the Leiden Observatory

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in The Netherlands.

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Our conversation is coming up after a word

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from our sponsor.

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The Kavli Prize honors scientists for basic research

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breakthroughs

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in astrophysics,

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nanoscience,

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and neuroscience,

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transforming

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our understanding

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of the big, the small, and the complex.

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The biennial prize

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awards $1,000,000

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in each of these three fields.

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You can play a crucial role in helping

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to recognize the trailblazers

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in your field

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by nominating them for the Kavli prize

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during the global call for nominations,

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which is open between July 1 and October

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1.

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Please visit kavliprize.org

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for more information.

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In 2018,

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Uwina van Dishoek won the Kavli Prize in

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Astrophysics

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for her combined

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contributions

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to observational,

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theoretical,

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and laboratory

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astrochemistry,

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elucidating

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the life cycle of interstellar clouds and the

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formation of stars and planets.

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She joins me down the line from Leiden.

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Hello, Iwina.

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Welcome to the podcast.

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Hello. It's a pleasure for me to be

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here.

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So, Ewina, your field of research, it's it's

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a fascinating

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combination of observational astronomy,

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astrophysics,

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and chemistry.

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Can you give us a brief introduction

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to astrochemistry?

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Indeed.

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My field of astrochemistry

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is a combination

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of both astronomy and chemistry

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and sometimes

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even,

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other areas,

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come in there.

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But, basically, what we do is the study

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of the formation,

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destruction, and excitation of molecules

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under the rather

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exotic conditions that we have in interstellar space.

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So space is very empty. Densities are, say,

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a million times lower than the best

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ultra high vacuum that we have in a

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laboratory on Earth. And also very low temperatures,

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and sometimes very harsh UV radiation.

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So studying the chemistry under those exotic conditions,

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that's sort of the chemistry part of astrochemistry.

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But the field is is is actually much

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more than that.

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There's also an astronomy part,

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because molecules actually have an influence on their

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environment,

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because they are major coolants of the gas.

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When you excite a molecule and it emits

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a photon

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and that photon escapes from the cloud,

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then actually the gas cools down.

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So they actually also set the temperature of

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these clouds. They can be used as remote

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thermometers

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through the excitation.

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They are also exquisite tracers of the kinematics

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and dynamics of clouds.

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So astronomy wise, there is a lot to

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do with molecules, and,

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astronomers are now using that to study,

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the gas not just in the Milky Way,

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but even molecular gas at the edge of

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the universe in very distant galaxies.

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I see. And my understanding is that most

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of your work is is theoretical

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astrochemistry.

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Would that would that be right? You're you

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don't spend all of your time

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in the lab

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like we would think of as a

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a a traditional chemist. But

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I'm just wondering

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how

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how you make the connection? How how can

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you make the connection with the sort of

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chemistry that we do here on Earth

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and the chemistry that occurs in the cosmos?

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Because,

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you know, as you've alluded to, it it's

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a very different place, isn't it, in terms

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of density and radiation and

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all that sort of stuff?

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Yeah. So indeed, I started actually out as

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a theoretical chemist

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before I even knew of interstellar space and

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the molecules there,

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quantum chemistry.

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So that was the very early part of

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my career.

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And then over sort of the last decades,

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I have become much more involved in observations,

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and also indeed to some degree in laboratory

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experiments, at least,

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overseeing and supervising a number of the the

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laboratory

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experiments that are going on in Leiden.

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So there are lead challenges. So on the

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one hand, you know, sometimes you have molecules

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in space that you don't even have on

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Earth. So,

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they're,

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very short lived. Radicals and ions are very

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short lived under Earth conditions, but they can

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be very stable molecules in space. And so

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then it's very good actually to study them

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in a computer because the computer doesn't care,

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whether where the molecule is. And so we

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have learned a lot about that, for example,

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of how molecules,

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fall apart under the,

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under UV radiation.

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So, the process of photo dissociation. So that

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has been one aspect that was very well

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suited

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for studying both

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here on Earth, but also

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in space.

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Other

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aspects like laboratory experiments, like we do in

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Leiden,

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there the temperature is is not so difficult.

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We can reach the very low temperatures in

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the laboratory, and we can freeze out molecules

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on the surfaces there. We can study their

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spectroscopy

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and directly compare that with what we see

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in space. That's actually what we use to

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identify molecules in space,

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study the spectroscopy,

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in,

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here in the lab because the the laws

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of quantum mechanics are basically the same on

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Earth

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and, and in space.

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So that works also very well. What doesn't

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work so well is the time scales.

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Chemical process

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in space can take maybe, you know, hundreds

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of thousands or a billion years.

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And and, of course, on Earth in our

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lab, we want to do it in a

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few hours, at least within a day.

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So that means we're always working at higher

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densities than in space, and we have to

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extrapolate that,

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to the conditions of space. But there there

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are ways of doing that.

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I see. And and what are some of

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the the important unanswered questions

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in astrochemistry

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today? What are what are you and your

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colleagues really keen on,

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on discovering?

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Right. So there there are some questions in

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terms of chemistry.

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For example, we now think that many of

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the important molecules like water and also some

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of the more complex ones

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are formed primarily on the surfaces of these

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tiny little dust grains,

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micron sized silicates

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and carbonaceous material that is,

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in this, class between the stars.

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These grains are not catalysts in a chemical

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sense, but they are sort

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of bring the various atoms and molecules together

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in a sort of meet and greet,

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sense,

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to form new molecules. But how exactly does

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this happen?

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That is a big question.

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We've also seen some of these,

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large polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons

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in space, whole, families of them even,

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in very distant galaxies.

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But some of these molecules like

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cyanobenzene

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and even cyanopyrine,

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detected by other groups,

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are now found and in very cold and

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tenuous conditions, how do you make them there

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already? These complex, you know, pyrene four benzene

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rings.

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How do you make them in research,

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cold and tenuous conditions?

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But I think the biggest question

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that,

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we have the overarching

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questions,

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I would say, of our field is,

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the chemical evolution of the universe.

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For example, at the very highest redshifts, which

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molecules can be formed there?

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If, say, half a billion

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years after the Big Bang, you have much

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less carbon and oxygen available.

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Yet we know that our molecules there.

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What kind of molecules do you make? What

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role do they have?

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And then

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one of

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the, big questions that certainly,

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is not a focus of much astrochemistry

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research

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is much closer to home.

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The chemical evolution from these

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telesus clouds to planets. We now know that's

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the you know, our galaxy is teeming with

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planets. On average, every star has at least

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one planet.

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You know, what sets the chemical composition of

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these exoplanets,

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and their atmospheres?

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You know, what is basically the root of

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these molecules

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from clouds to planets?

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And I think that is a a very

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big question that will,

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is being tackled now, and it will certainly

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still take some time to to answer.

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I wanted to ask you about exoplanets because,

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you know, over the past thirty years or

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so, there's just been an explosion

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in the number of exoplanets that have been

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observed, and

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our understanding of exoplanets has gone from pretty

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well zero

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to, well, we know that there's a lot

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of them out there.

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It is I mean, that must have been

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very exciting,

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for you and your colleagues

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in astrochem chemistry to see.

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I mean, in a sense, it's it's a

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whole a whole new field really has emerged,

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because of these exoplanets.

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Yes. Absolutely.

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And,

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it is interesting

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that, of course, it started that revolution in

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1995

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that was actually the same time that also

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these planet forming discs

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that had been postulated for centuries, you know,

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by Kant, Laplace, Swedenborg,

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that these planet forming disc, the rotating discs

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of gas and dust, around young stars in

284
00:10:42,669 --> 00:10:45,250
which the planets are made were finally being

285
00:10:46,110 --> 00:10:47,970
discovered and imaged and,

286
00:10:48,429 --> 00:10:50,565
studied. So this has gone,

287
00:10:51,024 --> 00:10:52,865
actually hand in hand. On the one hand,

288
00:10:52,865 --> 00:10:55,584
the discovery of exoplanets and that field now

289
00:10:55,584 --> 00:10:56,644
shifting from

290
00:10:57,024 --> 00:10:58,245
discovery of exoplanets

291
00:10:58,625 --> 00:11:02,804
to actually characterizing them, characterizing their chemical composition

292
00:11:03,419 --> 00:11:04,620
To at the same time,

293
00:11:05,100 --> 00:11:08,559
these discs being studied with, you know, increasing

294
00:11:08,779 --> 00:11:09,279
detail,

295
00:11:10,059 --> 00:11:14,059
with various telescopes. So it's it's a very

296
00:11:14,059 --> 00:11:17,134
interesting sort of two tracks that have been

297
00:11:17,134 --> 00:11:19,534
going on and that are now, you know,

298
00:11:19,534 --> 00:11:20,754
starting to come together.

299
00:11:21,934 --> 00:11:23,554
Yeah. That that that's fascinating.

300
00:11:24,335 --> 00:11:26,894
Can you talk a bit about the research

301
00:11:26,894 --> 00:11:29,134
that you're doing right now? What what what

302
00:11:29,134 --> 00:11:30,514
are you up to in Leiden?

303
00:11:31,620 --> 00:11:32,019
Yeah.

304
00:11:32,819 --> 00:11:35,620
So, lots of things are happening, at this

305
00:11:35,620 --> 00:11:36,120
moment.

306
00:11:37,139 --> 00:11:39,379
If I take a small step back, I

307
00:11:39,379 --> 00:11:41,779
would say that in the the first decades

308
00:11:41,779 --> 00:11:44,039
of my career, we have been focused mostly

309
00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:46,115
on studying this chemical evolution

310
00:11:46,415 --> 00:11:47,715
from the clouds

311
00:11:48,174 --> 00:11:49,394
to these protoplanetary

312
00:11:49,934 --> 00:11:52,674
disks. We've been studying the ice composition,

313
00:11:53,455 --> 00:11:56,815
a simple molecule, simple ices like water, carbon

314
00:11:56,815 --> 00:11:57,315
dioxide,

315
00:11:57,695 --> 00:11:59,875
and now also the more complex molecules,

316
00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:02,220
both in the gas and the ice.

317
00:12:03,639 --> 00:12:06,200
And what has been happening actually in the

318
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,519
last decade is that we have made a

319
00:12:08,519 --> 00:12:09,019
switch

320
00:12:09,879 --> 00:12:10,379
from,

321
00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:14,120
first clouds to disks and now actually from

322
00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:15,164
disks to planets.

323
00:12:16,125 --> 00:12:18,865
And that has been enabled by the, Atacama

324
00:12:19,004 --> 00:12:22,605
Large Millimeter Array, which has now allowed us

325
00:12:22,605 --> 00:12:24,924
not just to detect these discs, but actually

326
00:12:24,924 --> 00:12:27,245
to zoom in into these discs on on

327
00:12:27,245 --> 00:12:28,544
solar system scales.

328
00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,179
And, that we can study the chemical distribution,

329
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:33,940
there,

330
00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,759
and see where the dust and the the

331
00:12:37,759 --> 00:12:38,659
ices accumulate,

332
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,059
and also reveal,

333
00:12:41,759 --> 00:12:44,534
actually, surprisingly rich chemistry in these discs.

334
00:12:45,975 --> 00:12:47,574
And then also at the same time, the

335
00:12:47,574 --> 00:12:48,875
James Webb Space Telescope,

336
00:12:50,375 --> 00:12:52,315
which works at infrared wavelengths,

337
00:12:52,855 --> 00:12:53,914
which actually,

338
00:12:55,174 --> 00:12:57,495
can study the warmer gas in the inner

339
00:12:57,495 --> 00:12:59,419
part of the disk, say, the inner few

340
00:12:59,419 --> 00:13:01,200
astronomical units inside

341
00:13:02,220 --> 00:13:04,139
what in our solar system would be, say,

342
00:13:04,139 --> 00:13:05,440
the orbit of Jupiter.

343
00:13:05,820 --> 00:13:07,919
And that's where terrestrial planets are forming.

344
00:13:08,460 --> 00:13:08,940
And,

345
00:13:09,340 --> 00:13:11,519
that is where we and I also study,

346
00:13:13,019 --> 00:13:14,475
the the the chemistry

347
00:13:14,934 --> 00:13:18,054
of various simple molecules and also more complex

348
00:13:18,054 --> 00:13:21,095
ones in great detail. So so we're starting

349
00:13:21,095 --> 00:13:22,794
sort of to to to map,

350
00:13:23,815 --> 00:13:25,195
these discs and,

351
00:13:25,654 --> 00:13:27,335
both from the inner to the outer part

352
00:13:27,335 --> 00:13:28,235
in more detail.

353
00:13:28,820 --> 00:13:30,980
Sometimes I like to compare this also with,

354
00:13:31,779 --> 00:13:33,779
you know, how Google Maps was in the

355
00:13:33,779 --> 00:13:35,240
early days. You know?

356
00:13:35,779 --> 00:13:37,940
A city was one big blob, and you

357
00:13:37,940 --> 00:13:40,544
couldn't see anything in it. And now with

358
00:13:41,024 --> 00:13:44,245
OMA and to some degree also with JWST,

359
00:13:44,544 --> 00:13:46,464
we can now with OMA, we can now

360
00:13:46,464 --> 00:13:48,565
see the the houses, the canals.

361
00:13:48,945 --> 00:13:50,704
We can sort of see all of the

362
00:13:50,704 --> 00:13:52,084
the structure in these,

363
00:13:52,544 --> 00:13:54,809
these disks and see what is where.

364
00:13:56,070 --> 00:13:58,070
And I I wanted to ask you about,

365
00:13:59,669 --> 00:14:00,730
you know, the possibility

366
00:14:01,110 --> 00:14:01,929
of detecting

367
00:14:02,629 --> 00:14:03,929
life somewhere

368
00:14:04,389 --> 00:14:06,549
other than Earth. I mean, maybe in in

369
00:14:06,549 --> 00:14:07,610
the solar system

370
00:14:08,044 --> 00:14:08,544
or,

371
00:14:08,924 --> 00:14:09,985
somewhere else.

372
00:14:11,644 --> 00:14:14,784
You, you know, have a a fantastic knowledge

373
00:14:14,924 --> 00:14:16,225
of of

374
00:14:16,684 --> 00:14:17,184
astrochemistry

375
00:14:17,725 --> 00:14:19,904
and and I suppose, you know, the possibilities

376
00:14:20,365 --> 00:14:23,750
for the conditions for life to be present.

377
00:14:24,050 --> 00:14:26,790
Do you have any any views about,

378
00:14:27,809 --> 00:14:30,389
you know, sort of life on other planets,

379
00:14:31,009 --> 00:14:33,889
I suppose to put it bluntly? Or, and

380
00:14:33,889 --> 00:14:36,129
has that changed over your career? I mean,

381
00:14:36,129 --> 00:14:38,309
do you think it's much more possible now

382
00:14:38,834 --> 00:14:41,735
that we we that life does exist elsewhere?

383
00:14:43,235 --> 00:14:44,855
So I think the possibilities

384
00:14:45,314 --> 00:14:47,814
are absolutely there. I mean, if anything,

385
00:14:48,834 --> 00:14:50,754
our and I would say that of the

386
00:14:50,754 --> 00:14:51,735
Ontario community,

387
00:14:52,995 --> 00:14:53,460
has

388
00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:55,480
shown that,

389
00:14:56,580 --> 00:14:57,559
water is

390
00:14:58,500 --> 00:14:59,639
available around

391
00:15:00,259 --> 00:15:01,160
all young

392
00:15:01,540 --> 00:15:02,519
forming stars,

393
00:15:03,460 --> 00:15:05,160
in quite significant amounts.

394
00:15:05,860 --> 00:15:08,019
We know that it is transported to these

395
00:15:08,019 --> 00:15:08,414
disks,

396
00:15:08,975 --> 00:15:10,654
to the at least the comets and the

397
00:15:10,654 --> 00:15:12,574
planet forming zones of these disks. So we

398
00:15:12,574 --> 00:15:14,754
know there's water there. We know there's there's

399
00:15:14,894 --> 00:15:16,595
organic material there.

400
00:15:17,054 --> 00:15:17,554
So,

401
00:15:18,254 --> 00:15:19,954
there are a lot of ingredients

402
00:15:20,495 --> 00:15:21,659
present to make

403
00:15:22,059 --> 00:15:22,799
a habitable

404
00:15:23,419 --> 00:15:24,720
world, so to say.

405
00:15:25,339 --> 00:15:26,000
I should

406
00:15:26,459 --> 00:15:29,279
certainly say that most of the research

407
00:15:29,980 --> 00:15:32,240
has come to the point of the

408
00:15:32,779 --> 00:15:34,079
knowing or charting

409
00:15:34,620 --> 00:15:35,759
the chemical ingredients

410
00:15:36,299 --> 00:15:37,120
of the

411
00:15:37,424 --> 00:15:40,384
outer regions of planet forming discs, so say

412
00:15:40,384 --> 00:15:42,804
beyond to the colder outer part, beyond,

413
00:15:44,065 --> 00:15:44,565
Jupiter.

414
00:15:45,985 --> 00:15:48,465
JBST is now learning us something about the

415
00:15:48,465 --> 00:15:49,524
the inner part.

416
00:15:51,149 --> 00:15:51,649
But,

417
00:15:52,509 --> 00:15:54,129
there's still a lot of questions

418
00:15:54,590 --> 00:15:57,649
as to what is happening exactly in that,

419
00:15:58,269 --> 00:15:59,470
region of,

420
00:15:59,950 --> 00:16:02,190
what would be the equivalent of the orbit

421
00:16:02,190 --> 00:16:02,929
of Earth,

422
00:16:03,324 --> 00:16:04,144
say, Mars,

423
00:16:04,445 --> 00:16:05,904
in our own solar system,

424
00:16:06,445 --> 00:16:08,684
what is happening exactly there. But we definitely

425
00:16:08,684 --> 00:16:11,664
know that the ingredients are widely available.

426
00:16:12,204 --> 00:16:14,524
Now to what extent you can then make

427
00:16:14,524 --> 00:16:15,024
life,

428
00:16:15,404 --> 00:16:18,365
I always like to bounce that question to

429
00:16:18,365 --> 00:16:18,865
my

430
00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:20,120
chemistry

431
00:16:20,580 --> 00:16:21,960
and my biochemistry

432
00:16:22,340 --> 00:16:23,080
and biology

433
00:16:23,540 --> 00:16:26,100
colleagues because I'm certainly not an expert in

434
00:16:26,100 --> 00:16:26,600
that.

435
00:16:27,139 --> 00:16:29,320
Some of them say they're, you know, chemistry

436
00:16:29,379 --> 00:16:30,519
will find its way,

437
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:33,960
and it will make life in some cases.

438
00:16:35,084 --> 00:16:35,584
But,

439
00:16:36,605 --> 00:16:38,204
it it will be it will be hard

440
00:16:38,204 --> 00:16:40,384
to detect. No doubt about that.

441
00:16:41,324 --> 00:16:43,644
And it may take us some time before

442
00:16:43,644 --> 00:16:46,044
we know the answer to this question. So

443
00:16:46,044 --> 00:16:47,884
in that sense, I'm a little bit more

444
00:16:47,884 --> 00:16:50,230
conservative than some of my colleagues who are

445
00:16:50,230 --> 00:16:52,410
much more optimistic that we will,

446
00:16:53,830 --> 00:16:56,009
find that sort of in the next decade.

447
00:16:56,870 --> 00:17:00,090
I see. And you you mentioned two major

448
00:17:00,470 --> 00:17:03,745
observatories that you've been involved with, the the

449
00:17:03,745 --> 00:17:04,244
ALMA,

450
00:17:05,025 --> 00:17:07,845
radio telescope array and the James Webb

451
00:17:08,384 --> 00:17:09,204
Space Telescope.

452
00:17:10,384 --> 00:17:12,625
And and you've been involved in the design

453
00:17:12,625 --> 00:17:13,365
and operation

454
00:17:13,825 --> 00:17:14,884
of these facilities.

455
00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,059
Can you talk a bit about

456
00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,500
the the challenges that are involved in

457
00:17:20,799 --> 00:17:21,440
getting the,

458
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,279
astronomy community to agree on the parameters of

459
00:17:25,279 --> 00:17:25,940
a new

460
00:17:26,319 --> 00:17:26,819
observatory?

461
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,234
I mean, I've you know, I suppose you

462
00:17:29,234 --> 00:17:31,555
come in you you come at, at it

463
00:17:31,555 --> 00:17:33,255
with your astrochemistry

464
00:17:34,035 --> 00:17:36,055
hat on, but, there's probably

465
00:17:36,434 --> 00:17:39,154
colleagues who are more interested in black holes,

466
00:17:39,154 --> 00:17:42,059
and you've got to agree on on building

467
00:17:42,059 --> 00:17:44,299
an instrument that can do a good job

468
00:17:44,299 --> 00:17:44,619
of,

469
00:17:45,420 --> 00:17:47,660
giving us information about both of those things

470
00:17:47,660 --> 00:17:50,380
and much more. How, I mean, how do

471
00:17:50,380 --> 00:17:50,940
you get

472
00:17:51,740 --> 00:17:53,359
how do you start

473
00:17:53,819 --> 00:17:55,500
with the design of something like,

474
00:17:56,194 --> 00:17:57,815
the James Webb Space Telescope,

475
00:17:58,115 --> 00:17:59,554
and how do you get people to agree

476
00:17:59,554 --> 00:18:02,035
on it? Or maybe in the end, people

477
00:18:02,035 --> 00:18:03,095
just don't agree.

478
00:18:03,554 --> 00:18:05,634
That well, it's a it's a very good

479
00:18:05,634 --> 00:18:07,474
question. Of course, it's one that is the

480
00:18:07,474 --> 00:18:10,409
basis of everything that we do astronomy because,

481
00:18:10,649 --> 00:18:13,210
astronomy is a field that is driven by

482
00:18:13,210 --> 00:18:14,029
new facilities.

483
00:18:14,889 --> 00:18:16,569
I think the first thing to note is

484
00:18:16,569 --> 00:18:18,889
that there is no single telescope that can

485
00:18:18,889 --> 00:18:19,389
satisfy

486
00:18:19,690 --> 00:18:20,190
everybody.

487
00:18:20,490 --> 00:18:22,305
So, you always need

488
00:18:22,865 --> 00:18:26,485
telescopes of different kinds covering different wavelengths regime

489
00:18:26,545 --> 00:18:27,045
covering

490
00:18:27,424 --> 00:18:27,924
difference,

491
00:18:28,384 --> 00:18:28,884
say,

492
00:18:30,865 --> 00:18:31,845
fields of view,

493
00:18:32,545 --> 00:18:34,384
whether you're going for a wide field of

494
00:18:34,384 --> 00:18:36,225
view or whether you're gonna zoom in to

495
00:18:36,225 --> 00:18:37,285
a certain astronomical

496
00:18:37,664 --> 00:18:38,164
object.

497
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,220
So so there's

498
00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:42,940
never going to be one that satisfies

499
00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,660
all. But then with Zilla given,

500
00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,200
range, if I take the the Almad at

501
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,539
the gamma large BDB array as an example,

502
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:54,140
there were two main science drivers

503
00:18:55,615 --> 00:18:58,494
that the scientists put together. The one was,

504
00:18:59,214 --> 00:19:01,234
very distant galaxies, basically

505
00:19:01,855 --> 00:19:04,194
studying the gas that makes stars

506
00:19:04,815 --> 00:19:05,315
in,

507
00:19:05,934 --> 00:19:08,654
Milky Way type galaxies, but then at at

508
00:19:08,654 --> 00:19:10,900
high ratchets in the distant universe.

509
00:19:13,140 --> 00:19:15,080
That was an important one to basically

510
00:19:15,539 --> 00:19:16,500
charge the,

511
00:19:17,220 --> 00:19:18,519
star formation history,

512
00:19:19,380 --> 00:19:22,259
of the universe in the critical period that

513
00:19:22,259 --> 00:19:24,315
most of the stars are being built. That

514
00:19:24,315 --> 00:19:26,474
was a very strong set of science case

515
00:19:26,474 --> 00:19:29,134
that, was of interest to a large community.

516
00:19:29,595 --> 00:19:31,914
The other one was these, close to home,

517
00:19:31,914 --> 00:19:35,755
these tiny planet forming discs that basically were

518
00:19:35,755 --> 00:19:37,855
so weak and so small,

519
00:19:38,759 --> 00:19:41,799
that previous instruments could not study them. And

520
00:19:41,799 --> 00:19:43,799
we knew that if we ever wanted to

521
00:19:43,799 --> 00:19:45,340
study planet formation

522
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:46,700
and,

523
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,740
how exoplanets are formed, we had to know

524
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:52,454
we had to dive into these disks where

525
00:19:52,454 --> 00:19:54,075
the action is is happening.

526
00:19:54,855 --> 00:19:57,335
So zooming in on on platforming disk on

527
00:19:57,335 --> 00:19:59,494
solar system scale, say, down to the orbit

528
00:19:59,494 --> 00:20:02,294
of Jupiter in the nearest star forming region

529
00:20:02,294 --> 00:20:03,990
was another science driver.

530
00:20:04,549 --> 00:20:06,789
So as as usual, you know, The US

531
00:20:06,789 --> 00:20:09,589
made its plans. Europe made its plans. Japan

532
00:20:09,589 --> 00:20:10,569
made its plans.

533
00:20:11,109 --> 00:20:13,929
And then we quickly realized to scientists

534
00:20:14,230 --> 00:20:14,730
that,

535
00:20:15,429 --> 00:20:17,829
none of these plans could satisfy these science

536
00:20:17,829 --> 00:20:18,164
goals.

537
00:20:18,725 --> 00:20:20,244
And that the only way we could make

538
00:20:20,244 --> 00:20:22,585
it work was if you put them together

539
00:20:23,045 --> 00:20:26,085
in one single worldwide array. Because the the

540
00:20:26,085 --> 00:20:28,424
good thing about an array is that actually

541
00:20:28,565 --> 00:20:31,205
many of the parameters scale not just with

542
00:20:31,205 --> 00:20:33,640
n, but even with n squared. So,

543
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:35,880
everybody knew that this was going to be

544
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:37,179
a win win situation.

545
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:39,480
And that's the first thing. If the scientist

546
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:40,380
agree, then,

547
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:43,400
and it was also shown that, you know,

548
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,099
you could even make black people

549
00:20:45,559 --> 00:20:46,779
happy to some degree.

550
00:20:47,975 --> 00:20:50,555
And at other size of the system,

551
00:20:50,934 --> 00:20:53,174
even people studying the sun. So then we

552
00:20:53,174 --> 00:20:54,795
had a big movement,

553
00:20:55,335 --> 00:20:57,275
that said ALMA has to be built.

554
00:20:58,295 --> 00:21:00,295
Well, having said that, then, of course, the

555
00:21:00,295 --> 00:21:01,835
technical and fiscal realities,

556
00:21:02,819 --> 00:21:04,339
come to play. And,

557
00:21:04,740 --> 00:21:07,220
that is where scientists then also have a

558
00:21:07,220 --> 00:21:08,599
a big role in in

559
00:21:08,980 --> 00:21:10,900
ensuring that once those

560
00:21:11,460 --> 00:21:13,880
especially the fiscal realities come in,

561
00:21:15,059 --> 00:21:16,105
that still,

562
00:21:16,805 --> 00:21:19,605
in the end, an array is built that,

563
00:21:20,164 --> 00:21:22,505
can still do those science cases.

564
00:21:23,045 --> 00:21:24,345
Basically preserving,

565
00:21:25,365 --> 00:21:28,259
the science case again, making sure not that

566
00:21:28,259 --> 00:21:31,220
not too much rescoping is going on. But

567
00:21:31,220 --> 00:21:33,380
the science cases, they said, you know, the

568
00:21:33,380 --> 00:21:35,299
the size of the array. We knew we

569
00:21:35,299 --> 00:21:37,779
had to have telescopes that had to be

570
00:21:37,779 --> 00:21:39,720
separated by up to 15 kilometers.

571
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:42,884
We knew that we had to have at

572
00:21:42,884 --> 00:21:45,305
least 50 telescopes for the sensitivity.

573
00:21:45,765 --> 00:21:46,664
We knew that's,

574
00:21:47,125 --> 00:21:49,065
we had to have a frequency range,

575
00:21:50,085 --> 00:21:53,045
from, say, a 100 gigahertz to 800 gigahertz,

576
00:21:53,045 --> 00:21:54,025
so so covering,

577
00:21:54,990 --> 00:21:57,150
a range of frequencies. So that was all

578
00:21:57,150 --> 00:21:59,549
set by the by the science and especially

579
00:21:59,549 --> 00:22:01,089
by the few science drivers.

580
00:22:02,269 --> 00:22:03,950
I see. And, you know, in the case

581
00:22:03,950 --> 00:22:05,570
of the of a space telescope,

582
00:22:07,144 --> 00:22:09,304
I mean, I I find it amazing that

583
00:22:09,304 --> 00:22:11,784
you can, you know, put something like that

584
00:22:11,784 --> 00:22:14,664
up into space, and you can open things

585
00:22:14,664 --> 00:22:17,224
up, and and and it actually works. Do

586
00:22:17,464 --> 00:22:17,964
is

587
00:22:18,984 --> 00:22:22,230
were you very nervous when, for example, the

588
00:22:22,230 --> 00:22:25,190
James Webb Space Telescope was launched? And I'm

589
00:22:25,190 --> 00:22:27,529
sure there was a few moments there

590
00:22:28,070 --> 00:22:31,130
where a lot of astronomers were very anxious

591
00:22:31,190 --> 00:22:32,009
or worried.

592
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:34,150
I mean, what was that feeling like? It

593
00:22:34,150 --> 00:22:35,049
must have been

594
00:22:35,365 --> 00:22:36,105
a very

595
00:22:37,444 --> 00:22:39,224
incredible moment, I would imagine.

596
00:22:39,605 --> 00:22:40,424
Yeah. Absolutely.

597
00:22:41,365 --> 00:22:44,005
So, I got involved in, Webb, in the

598
00:22:44,005 --> 00:22:45,144
late nineteen nineties,

599
00:22:46,804 --> 00:22:49,299
as part of the science advisory committees, first

600
00:22:49,299 --> 00:22:50,119
of the European

601
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:53,000
Space Agency and then of the joint NASA,

602
00:22:53,140 --> 00:22:55,000
ESA, US European,

603
00:22:56,099 --> 00:22:58,200
science advisory committee. And,

604
00:22:59,059 --> 00:22:59,880
at that time,

605
00:23:01,015 --> 00:23:03,035
the mid infrared instrument, MIRI,

606
00:23:04,535 --> 00:23:07,035
was not yet secured on the telescope.

607
00:23:07,734 --> 00:23:10,554
Everybody knew, again, based on these science cases,

608
00:23:10,615 --> 00:23:12,775
one had to have the near infrared camera

609
00:23:12,775 --> 00:23:14,315
and a near infrared spectrometer,

610
00:23:14,789 --> 00:23:17,430
but the mid infrared was considered still an

611
00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:20,070
add on at that time. Now we had

612
00:23:20,070 --> 00:23:23,210
just come out of a, very interesting,

613
00:23:24,070 --> 00:23:27,350
innovative mission, the infrared space observatory on the

614
00:23:27,350 --> 00:23:30,125
European side, and knew the power of the

615
00:23:30,125 --> 00:23:30,865
mid infrared.

616
00:23:31,325 --> 00:23:33,244
Only for the brightest sources, but we could

617
00:23:33,244 --> 00:23:34,545
see sort of the potential

618
00:23:35,085 --> 00:23:36,144
of the mid infrared.

619
00:23:36,765 --> 00:23:39,005
And so that was then the role in

620
00:23:39,005 --> 00:23:41,484
sort of the the early two thousands to,

621
00:23:42,204 --> 00:23:43,585
make the case together,

622
00:23:44,490 --> 00:23:46,570
a group of US and small group of

623
00:23:46,570 --> 00:23:47,470
US and Europe,

624
00:23:48,009 --> 00:23:50,089
and scientists that there had to be a

625
00:23:50,089 --> 00:23:51,950
mid infrared instrument on it.

626
00:23:52,330 --> 00:23:53,789
So by 02/2002,

627
00:23:54,250 --> 00:23:57,789
the mid infrared instrument was secured on, JBST,

628
00:23:57,930 --> 00:24:00,044
but then we still had to to build

629
00:24:00,044 --> 00:24:00,544
it.

630
00:24:00,924 --> 00:24:03,504
And NASA and ESA decided that this had

631
00:24:03,644 --> 00:24:05,744
was going to be a collaboration between,

632
00:24:06,524 --> 00:24:08,625
US and Europe in a 5050,

633
00:24:09,244 --> 00:24:09,744
partnership,

634
00:24:10,524 --> 00:24:12,684
which had turned out to be, actually very

635
00:24:12,684 --> 00:24:15,460
well, worked very well. And on the European

636
00:24:15,460 --> 00:24:18,259
side, we had a as is often done

637
00:24:18,259 --> 00:24:21,160
in European Space Astronomy, a consortium

638
00:24:22,019 --> 00:24:22,759
of countries

639
00:24:23,220 --> 00:24:25,559
and institutes that together then built,

640
00:24:26,259 --> 00:24:29,154
the instruments, each institute delivering a part of

641
00:24:29,154 --> 00:24:30,054
the the hardware.

642
00:24:30,514 --> 00:24:31,734
And so in The Netherlands,

643
00:24:32,274 --> 00:24:35,474
we were responsible for building part of the

644
00:24:35,474 --> 00:24:35,974
spectrometer

645
00:24:36,754 --> 00:24:37,575
main optics.

646
00:24:38,434 --> 00:24:40,994
And, that was actually done between 2003

647
00:24:40,994 --> 00:24:42,029
and 02/2008.

648
00:24:42,109 --> 00:24:43,970
So we delivered our hardware

649
00:24:44,349 --> 00:24:45,730
in 02/2008,

650
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:47,330
and then it was integrated

651
00:24:47,789 --> 00:24:48,690
in The UK.

652
00:24:50,269 --> 00:24:52,990
The imager and the spectrometer came together. It

653
00:24:52,990 --> 00:24:55,789
was tested, calibrated. And then in 02/2012, it

654
00:24:55,789 --> 00:24:58,595
was shipped to to NASA to to Goddard.

655
00:24:59,295 --> 00:25:01,475
Then it was finally launched in 2021. So

656
00:25:02,575 --> 00:25:04,994
you can see that having delivered our hardware

657
00:25:05,055 --> 00:25:06,275
in 02/2008,

658
00:25:07,455 --> 00:25:09,634
this was a very long ride, and,

659
00:25:10,414 --> 00:25:11,315
we were indeed

660
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:12,599
extremely nervous,

661
00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:14,119
in order,

662
00:25:14,659 --> 00:25:16,980
you know, to to to see the launch

663
00:25:16,980 --> 00:25:19,140
go well. But then also we knew all

664
00:25:19,140 --> 00:25:21,159
of the steps that had to be done,

665
00:25:22,339 --> 00:25:23,720
in in orbits.

666
00:25:24,174 --> 00:25:25,535
Well, first, it had to get to its

667
00:25:25,535 --> 00:25:28,035
orbits and then the the whole unfolding

668
00:25:28,335 --> 00:25:29,055
of the,

669
00:25:30,335 --> 00:25:30,994
the sunshades

670
00:25:31,295 --> 00:25:33,134
and, of course, the phasing up of the

671
00:25:33,134 --> 00:25:34,755
telescope. But then also,

672
00:25:35,375 --> 00:25:36,767
in April

673
00:25:36,767 --> 00:25:37,840
2022,

674
00:25:37,839 --> 00:25:40,480
turning on MIRI, turning on the cooler because

675
00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,039
MIRI had to be cool cooler than the

676
00:25:43,039 --> 00:25:43,940
other instruments.

677
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,319
And to me, that was one of the

678
00:25:46,319 --> 00:25:48,640
most nerve wracking moments. I thought, oh, we

679
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:49,460
have a telescope.

680
00:25:50,559 --> 00:25:53,164
It has survived the launch, but, you know,

681
00:25:53,164 --> 00:25:54,304
will it be cooled?

682
00:25:55,404 --> 00:25:57,585
And, so I was watching nervously

683
00:25:58,125 --> 00:25:58,944
the temperature,

684
00:26:00,045 --> 00:26:01,105
sensor basically

685
00:26:01,404 --> 00:26:03,724
every every day, you know, going down a

686
00:26:03,724 --> 00:26:04,464
little bit,

687
00:26:05,085 --> 00:26:08,140
until it finally reached its operating temperature. So

688
00:26:08,140 --> 00:26:08,960
so that was

689
00:26:09,339 --> 00:26:09,920
a a particularly,

690
00:26:11,660 --> 00:26:13,920
I would say, interesting stressful moment.

691
00:26:14,940 --> 00:26:16,880
Yeah. Especially after all that

692
00:26:17,259 --> 00:26:18,400
time and effort.

693
00:26:18,940 --> 00:26:21,519
Right. That yeah. Well well well, congratulations

694
00:26:23,194 --> 00:26:25,535
that that that you've got it to work.

695
00:26:26,154 --> 00:26:28,335
I mean, that must have been very satisfying,

696
00:26:28,474 --> 00:26:28,974
but,

697
00:26:29,434 --> 00:26:30,335
you know, I think

698
00:26:31,035 --> 00:26:33,674
sort of fascinated by your work in general

699
00:26:33,674 --> 00:26:35,994
because you're you're looking at things that are

700
00:26:35,994 --> 00:26:37,214
light years away.

701
00:26:37,769 --> 00:26:39,609
And then you're sort of sitting here on

702
00:26:39,609 --> 00:26:41,390
Earth and you're you're doing calculations

703
00:26:41,690 --> 00:26:44,170
and may maybe you're doing some experiments as

704
00:26:44,170 --> 00:26:44,670
well.

705
00:26:45,049 --> 00:26:46,269
And you're

706
00:26:46,650 --> 00:26:49,230
you're making connections between something that's

707
00:26:49,529 --> 00:26:51,769
so distant and, you know, happened so long

708
00:26:51,769 --> 00:26:52,269
ago,

709
00:26:52,705 --> 00:26:53,205
let's

710
00:26:53,585 --> 00:26:55,825
say, with, you know, the the science of

711
00:26:55,825 --> 00:26:56,325
today.

712
00:26:57,184 --> 00:26:58,945
And, you know, I think that, you know,

713
00:26:58,945 --> 00:27:00,705
to to me, that sounds like it must

714
00:27:00,705 --> 00:27:02,404
be very satisfying. So

715
00:27:02,785 --> 00:27:04,625
could you share with us maybe some of

716
00:27:04,625 --> 00:27:05,125
the

717
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:08,549
the the the highlights of of of your

718
00:27:08,549 --> 00:27:10,230
career? You know, some of the things that

719
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:11,990
that you were really excited about.

720
00:27:14,789 --> 00:27:17,049
So I I would say that's you know,

721
00:27:17,269 --> 00:27:18,650
every time that

722
00:27:19,125 --> 00:27:20,744
I get a new spectrum

723
00:27:21,045 --> 00:27:21,545
delivered

724
00:27:22,164 --> 00:27:24,005
no. It used to be that you go

725
00:27:24,005 --> 00:27:26,404
to the telescope. These days, you know, you

726
00:27:26,404 --> 00:27:28,805
get your data delivered in your computer. But

727
00:27:28,805 --> 00:27:30,345
still, when you open it

728
00:27:30,724 --> 00:27:33,204
and you see the data, you see these

729
00:27:33,204 --> 00:27:34,345
beautiful spectra,

730
00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:35,630
and you realize

731
00:27:35,930 --> 00:27:38,890
that those photons made it all the way

732
00:27:38,890 --> 00:27:39,710
to my computer,

733
00:27:40,250 --> 00:27:42,589
to the telescope first, to the computer,

734
00:27:43,210 --> 00:27:46,410
after traveling through space, through thousands of years,

735
00:27:46,410 --> 00:27:48,650
or in the case of distant galaxies, billions

736
00:27:48,650 --> 00:27:51,035
of years. I I still get an enormous

737
00:27:51,035 --> 00:27:53,194
kick out of that. It's, you know, every

738
00:27:53,194 --> 00:27:55,454
time I look forward to opening a new

739
00:27:55,835 --> 00:27:56,815
Christmas present.

740
00:27:57,595 --> 00:27:59,595
And some of those Christmas presents have been

741
00:27:59,595 --> 00:28:00,335
really fantastic.

742
00:28:01,515 --> 00:28:04,394
As we mentioned already earlier, water has been

743
00:28:04,394 --> 00:28:05,375
one of the

744
00:28:06,009 --> 00:28:07,950
focus areas of my research,

745
00:28:09,210 --> 00:28:11,130
all the way from the star forming clouds

746
00:28:11,130 --> 00:28:13,150
to these, planet forming discs,

747
00:28:13,690 --> 00:28:14,429
not just

748
00:28:14,730 --> 00:28:17,789
h two sixteen oxygen, but also its isotopologues,

749
00:28:18,490 --> 00:28:20,349
especially the deuterated water.

750
00:28:21,734 --> 00:28:23,755
And together, that tells you

751
00:28:24,055 --> 00:28:26,075
not just how much water there is,

752
00:28:27,414 --> 00:28:30,134
you're forming stars in discs, how it is

753
00:28:30,134 --> 00:28:30,634
transported

754
00:28:31,095 --> 00:28:33,575
nearly an altered to the comet forming zones

755
00:28:33,575 --> 00:28:34,079
of discs.

756
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:36,259
But sometimes,

757
00:28:36,799 --> 00:28:39,039
you can also learn something from the absence

758
00:28:39,039 --> 00:28:39,859
of a signal.

759
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:42,480
You can learn that it's, you know, the

760
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:45,380
absence of a signal can mean that water

761
00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:48,659
becomes invisible because it's locked up in,

762
00:28:49,065 --> 00:28:51,384
say, icy pebbles that are the building blocks

763
00:28:51,384 --> 00:28:52,024
of planets,

764
00:28:52,585 --> 00:28:54,585
making the water molecules invisible.

765
00:28:56,105 --> 00:28:58,264
So some of my students say that one

766
00:28:58,264 --> 00:29:00,424
of my most famous sayings is,

767
00:29:00,825 --> 00:29:02,044
all of the information,

768
00:29:02,779 --> 00:29:04,159
all of the new information

769
00:29:04,700 --> 00:29:06,480
is actually in the weak lines,

770
00:29:07,019 --> 00:29:08,399
not in the strong lines.

771
00:29:09,339 --> 00:29:11,599
So this is something that I've I've learned.

772
00:29:12,779 --> 00:29:14,480
Other surprise has been,

773
00:29:15,179 --> 00:29:16,159
now with JWST,

774
00:29:16,460 --> 00:29:17,519
just very recently.

775
00:29:17,875 --> 00:29:20,434
And we were studying these planet formed disc

776
00:29:20,434 --> 00:29:21,335
in our parts.

777
00:29:22,194 --> 00:29:23,875
Some of them turn out to be very

778
00:29:23,875 --> 00:29:25,095
rich in water lines,

779
00:29:25,634 --> 00:29:26,775
warm water lines.

780
00:29:27,634 --> 00:29:29,335
Some of them in c o two.

781
00:29:29,809 --> 00:29:31,970
We don't understand yet why. Some of them

782
00:29:31,970 --> 00:29:33,829
like c o two and the others water.

783
00:29:34,289 --> 00:29:36,849
But then we found that around very low

784
00:29:36,849 --> 00:29:38,470
mass stars, so say,

785
00:29:38,769 --> 00:29:41,329
stars that are only 20% of the mass

786
00:29:41,329 --> 00:29:42,230
of our sun,

787
00:29:42,849 --> 00:29:44,710
there's actually a very rich,

788
00:29:45,355 --> 00:29:45,855
hydrocarbonate

789
00:29:46,234 --> 00:29:49,115
chemistry going on with, you know, booming in

790
00:29:49,115 --> 00:29:49,615
satellite

791
00:29:49,994 --> 00:29:51,294
lines. Even benzene

792
00:29:51,914 --> 00:29:52,974
detected there,

793
00:29:54,075 --> 00:29:56,015
you know, on scales of,

794
00:29:56,634 --> 00:29:58,714
you know, where the orbit of the Earth

795
00:29:58,714 --> 00:29:59,819
or Venus is.

796
00:30:01,259 --> 00:30:03,339
And that was that is a puzzle that

797
00:30:03,339 --> 00:30:04,960
first of all, you know, one of these

798
00:30:05,099 --> 00:30:08,059
moments, but then also that's, you know, what

799
00:30:08,059 --> 00:30:11,440
can be causing that, that difference. So so

800
00:30:11,579 --> 00:30:13,259
when you have a new instrument and you

801
00:30:13,259 --> 00:30:15,884
have picked such a jump in sensitivity, you're

802
00:30:15,884 --> 00:30:18,204
always gonna find something new. And you don't

803
00:30:18,204 --> 00:30:20,044
know yet what, but you're gonna find something

804
00:30:20,044 --> 00:30:20,544
new.

805
00:30:21,325 --> 00:30:23,404
And, Uwina, finally, I wanted to ask you

806
00:30:23,404 --> 00:30:24,704
about the future.

807
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:26,779
Are there any,

808
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:28,460
sort of new observatories

809
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:29,580
or maybe,

810
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:32,299
telescopes that have just come online

811
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,880
that you're really excited about? Or or maybe

812
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:37,340
it's a new supercomputer

813
00:30:37,799 --> 00:30:38,860
where you can do

814
00:30:39,525 --> 00:30:42,325
calculations that you could never do before about

815
00:30:42,325 --> 00:30:44,164
chemistry. Or who who knows? Maybe even a

816
00:30:44,164 --> 00:30:45,065
quantum computer

817
00:30:45,525 --> 00:30:48,085
that could allow you to, to calculate the

818
00:30:48,085 --> 00:30:51,144
properties of of molecules in space. What

819
00:30:51,589 --> 00:30:53,509
what are you looking forward to, you know,

820
00:30:53,509 --> 00:30:55,190
let's say in the next ten years or

821
00:30:55,190 --> 00:30:56,650
so in astrochemistry?

822
00:30:57,509 --> 00:30:59,670
Right. Right. Well, I mean, the quantum computer

823
00:30:59,670 --> 00:31:00,570
is an interesting,

824
00:31:01,190 --> 00:31:03,829
option in the sense of quantum chemistry because

825
00:31:03,829 --> 00:31:06,285
that's really one of the main applications of

826
00:31:06,285 --> 00:31:07,265
quantum computers.

827
00:31:07,644 --> 00:31:09,025
And I'm happy to see

828
00:31:09,404 --> 00:31:11,884
several of my younger colleagues going that way,

829
00:31:12,125 --> 00:31:14,224
and I look forward to seeing that results.

830
00:31:15,164 --> 00:31:16,444
I think there are two,

831
00:31:17,164 --> 00:31:19,404
two aspects that I'm looking forward to very

832
00:31:19,404 --> 00:31:19,680
much.

833
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:22,420
One is actually

834
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:23,200
that's,

835
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:25,759
part of our gap of our knowledge comes

836
00:31:25,759 --> 00:31:28,740
from having no observed tree at the moment

837
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:29,619
that covers

838
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:30,900
sort of the

839
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,600
far infrared part of the spectrum. So where

840
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,244
JWST stops and where ALMA starts,

841
00:31:36,785 --> 00:31:38,465
between 3,300

842
00:31:38,465 --> 00:31:38,965
microns.

843
00:31:39,664 --> 00:31:41,924
We had the the ESA led mission,

844
00:31:42,865 --> 00:31:43,365
Herschel,

845
00:31:44,144 --> 00:31:46,884
and that was 2009 to 02/2013.

846
00:31:47,970 --> 00:31:50,950
But technology has now advanced so much that

847
00:31:51,009 --> 00:31:53,329
if you cool such a telescope, you get

848
00:31:53,329 --> 00:31:56,470
an orders of magnitude gain its sensitivity. So

849
00:31:56,529 --> 00:31:59,009
so this is one field that is really

850
00:31:59,009 --> 00:31:59,910
ripe for

851
00:32:00,674 --> 00:32:02,215
a new mission. And then,

852
00:32:03,795 --> 00:32:06,674
the NASA is through its pro plan now

853
00:32:06,674 --> 00:32:07,174
proposing,

854
00:32:07,795 --> 00:32:11,075
studying one mission, the mission. And that will

855
00:32:11,075 --> 00:32:14,195
be great, especially also for studying these, planet

856
00:32:14,195 --> 00:32:15,095
forming discs.

857
00:32:15,980 --> 00:32:17,019
The other one is,

858
00:32:17,420 --> 00:32:20,220
already being built, and that's the Extremely Large

859
00:32:20,220 --> 00:32:20,720
Telescope,

860
00:32:22,140 --> 00:32:24,860
of the European Southern Observatory. I don't know

861
00:32:24,860 --> 00:32:27,019
whether you follow the webcam, but,

862
00:32:27,420 --> 00:32:29,234
the building is there, and,

863
00:32:29,714 --> 00:32:32,755
it's making enormous progress. That is a 39

864
00:32:32,755 --> 00:32:33,255
meter,

865
00:32:34,194 --> 00:32:34,694
optical

866
00:32:34,994 --> 00:32:35,894
near infrared,

867
00:32:37,154 --> 00:32:37,894
mid infrared

868
00:32:38,515 --> 00:32:39,714
telescope on the ground.

869
00:32:40,515 --> 00:32:42,694
So it will have fantastic sensitivity

870
00:32:43,075 --> 00:32:46,109
and spatial resolution even though hindered

871
00:32:46,650 --> 00:32:47,950
by the Earth's atmosphere,

872
00:32:48,809 --> 00:32:51,230
in some parts of its wave flex coverage.

873
00:32:52,250 --> 00:32:54,809
But there we can really now start to

874
00:32:54,809 --> 00:32:56,029
spatially resolve,

875
00:32:56,809 --> 00:32:58,190
you know, some of these,

876
00:32:59,515 --> 00:33:01,835
you know, systems that we are now studying

877
00:33:01,835 --> 00:33:04,315
with Webb. But Webb is fantastic, but it's

878
00:33:04,315 --> 00:33:07,035
only only a six meter telescope with 39

879
00:33:07,035 --> 00:33:07,535
meter

880
00:33:07,914 --> 00:33:11,115
diameter. You can really start to resolve sort

881
00:33:11,115 --> 00:33:12,894
of these planet forming,

882
00:33:13,434 --> 00:33:13,934
regions,

883
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:15,700
and,

884
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,019
and map sort of the molecules,

885
00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,720
and the chemistry in much more detail in

886
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:21,460
that critical

887
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:22,420
inner,

888
00:33:23,359 --> 00:33:25,539
region of this where planets are forming.

889
00:33:27,034 --> 00:33:29,674
Well, that's fantastic. It sounds like, lots of

890
00:33:29,674 --> 00:33:30,174
exciting,

891
00:33:31,355 --> 00:33:33,515
things to do in astrochemistry in the future.

892
00:33:33,515 --> 00:33:35,134
And I'm guessing that you would

893
00:33:35,595 --> 00:33:36,095
encourage

894
00:33:36,474 --> 00:33:38,714
any listeners who are looking for a career

895
00:33:38,714 --> 00:33:39,214
in

896
00:33:39,595 --> 00:33:41,214
that straddles what physics,

897
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,339
astronomy, astrophysics, chemistry, maybe a bit of biology?

898
00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:47,880
It sounds like something really interesting to get

899
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:48,380
into.

900
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,799
Yeah. Exactly. Even some geology is in there

901
00:33:51,799 --> 00:33:54,140
now these days. Yeah. No. I can certainly,

902
00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:56,295
it's a very lively community

903
00:34:00,055 --> 00:34:02,055
Great. Well, thanks so much, Awina, for joining

904
00:34:02,055 --> 00:34:04,055
me today on the podcast, and,

905
00:34:04,695 --> 00:34:06,715
the best of luck with your future research.

906
00:34:07,414 --> 00:34:09,355
Thank you very much for inviting me.

907
00:34:17,390 --> 00:34:19,230
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

908
00:34:19,230 --> 00:34:22,110
for this week's podcast. Thanks to Uwina Van

909
00:34:22,110 --> 00:34:24,289
Dishoek for a fascinating conversation

910
00:34:24,885 --> 00:34:27,304
and to our producer, Fred Ailes.

911
00:34:27,765 --> 00:34:30,164
I would like to extend a special thank

912
00:34:30,164 --> 00:34:33,204
you to the Kavli prize for sponsoring this

913
00:34:33,204 --> 00:34:33,704
episode.

914
00:34:34,324 --> 00:34:38,164
The Kavli prize honors scientists for basic research

915
00:34:38,164 --> 00:34:38,664
breakthroughs

916
00:34:39,179 --> 00:34:39,920
in astrophysics,

917
00:34:40,619 --> 00:34:41,119
nanoscience,

918
00:34:41,420 --> 00:34:42,159
and neuroscience,

919
00:34:43,179 --> 00:34:46,400
transforming our understanding of the big, the small,

920
00:34:46,460 --> 00:34:47,440
and the complex.

921
00:34:48,139 --> 00:34:48,880
The biennial

922
00:34:49,179 --> 00:34:51,760
prize awards $1,000,000

923
00:34:51,819 --> 00:34:54,000
in each of these three fields.

924
00:34:54,635 --> 00:34:57,434
You can play a crucial role in helping

925
00:34:57,434 --> 00:34:59,214
to recognize the trailblazers

926
00:34:59,675 --> 00:35:02,795
in your field by nominating them for the

927
00:35:02,795 --> 00:35:03,855
Kavli Prize

928
00:35:04,155 --> 00:35:06,574
during the global call for nominations,

929
00:35:07,369 --> 00:35:10,579
which is open between July 1 and October

930
00:35:10,579 --> 00:35:12,269
1. Please visit

931
00:35:12,570 --> 00:35:14,750
kavliprize.org

932
00:35:14,969 --> 00:35:16,110
for more information.

933
00:35:16,730 --> 00:35:19,610
The Physics World weekly podcast will be back

934
00:35:19,610 --> 00:35:20,110
again

935
00:35:20,445 --> 00:35:21,184
next week.

936
00:35:21,724 --> 00:35:22,224
Bye.