266 | Fighting for CCPT: How to Advocate for Child-Centered Play Therapy in Sexual Abuse Cases and Trauma Work

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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I am answering a question from Lisa in Maryland.

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But before I get into that,

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a couple of,

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well,

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one housekeeping item and one update.

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So,

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housekeeping item is

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all of you all that are all y'all,

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if you're from Ohio and the

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surrounding areas,

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yuns.

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If you are going to

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be in Mississippi

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in 2 weekends,

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21st,

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22nd,

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you better RSVP to my meetup,

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y'all,

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for real.

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The Atlanta meetup,

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the last 4 days,

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like 10 of you signed up,

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and that makes it really hard to plan and really hard to reserve and blah blah blah.

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So

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throw me a bone here.

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Don't be last minute if you are going to the

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conference and or you are in driving distance of Oxford,

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Mississippi.

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And you're gonna come to the meetup.

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Will you please

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RSVP?

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There's a link in the show notes.

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I need a headcount.

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We're

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making a reservation.

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I can't have y'all,

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I mean,

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look,

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I would love it if y'all just show up,

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but I need to know you're coming,

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so please

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just let me know.

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RSVP that'd be really helpful.

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OK.

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Now,

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update.

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I don't know if you all remember and I

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answered Jatsna's question from India a while back,

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probably back in maybe November or December.

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I answered that on episode,

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and hers was about

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the child that like came in,

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laid down,

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read a book,

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and then said he wanted to destroy everything.

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If you remember that episode.

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She sent me a follow-up email,

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which I want to give you an update because I don't always

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hear what happens with kids after I cover a case on an

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episode.

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So,

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she wrote back

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and said,

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thanks for addressing my question.

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It was useful.

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You'll be happy to know

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that I did set limits as the toys were in danger.

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So if you remember in that episode,

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I said,

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you know,

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if at any point

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there is a concern for the child safety,

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your safety,

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or the toys getting damaged,

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you do need to set a limit,

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blah blah.

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So she says,

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you'll be happy to know that I did set a limit as the toys were in danger.

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But since then,

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he has discovered boxing a sponge pillow.

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Last week,

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15 rounds with me having to keep a running commentary on his athletic prowess.

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Oh my goodness,

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I love it.

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So,

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first of all,

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Jota,

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thank you for the update.

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But this is how

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the pendulum swings,

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y'all,

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right?

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So,

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I come in,

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I lay down,

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I

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choose to read a book,

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don't want to do anything.

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Then when I decide,

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OK,

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I do want to do something,

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it's complete destruction and mayhem.

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And

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I don't know if you remembered,

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but he walked,

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as he walked out of the room,

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he kicked blocks and he was throwing toys,

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all kinds of stuff.

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So

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now

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he has realized that he can build his self-confidence and

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get all of his esteem work with boxing a pillow,

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and now 15 rounds

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providing commentary

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on his athletic prowess.

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Oh my gosh,

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kids are awesome.

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OK.

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So,

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let's get back to

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the new

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question that we're going to answer.

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So,

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this is Lisa,

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which is a pseudonym she asked not to be named,

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but she's in Maryland.

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And the question is,

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can you speak to CCPT and trauma

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or

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sexual behavior?

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The emphasis in the field seems to be on directive work,

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and I've even heard reported from parents that legal throws out CCPT.

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How can we support these families when it comes to disclosures,

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post trauma play,

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etc.

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All right,

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I'm actually really happy about this question.

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So,

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yes,

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historically,

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legal arenas are very anti-CCPT in general.

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They're specifically anti-CCPT for sexual abuse,

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trauma,

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physical abuse,

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any

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kind of intervention along those lines.

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And that's just,

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uh,

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that's a broken system with broken process,

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but that's for another discussion.

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So

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anyway,

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we do know that historically CCPT has not been

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really valued in the courts

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and typically it does get dismissed in any kind of trauma or abuse scenarios.

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However,

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we have evidence.

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oozing out of

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journals and research,

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talking about how effective CCPT is with kids with a history of trauma,

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history of sexual or physical abuse and ACEs.

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So,

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oh,

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and maybe that might not be an international term.

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So adverse childhood experiences.

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So

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here's where we are with this.

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We know that CCPC works.

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We know

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that we have resources at our disposal

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to

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provide information

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to parents

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about what they can expect

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when children are in CCPT.

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Post-trauma or abuse.

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We also

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have access to reports

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that are not necessarily reports research

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that allows us to

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Know what we can look for

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in play.

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That has been extremely helpful.

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And if you are not familiar with what we typically use,

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what I talk about in the collective a lot in the coaching programs,

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Landreth and Homeyer.

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Published

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in '94,

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so I mean,

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look,

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we're,

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we're talking decades

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of this being in existence.

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Play therapy behaviors of sexually abused children.

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And that is a really helpful

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resource for us so that we know what

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we are looking for and what we can expect and how it might unfold in play sessions,

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etc.

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So,

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Lisa,

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to speak a little bit more specifically to your question,

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It

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is really about advocating for the model.

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It's about helping

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stakeholders,

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meaning parents,

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teachers,

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judges,

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guardians,

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attorneys,

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whomever,

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realize that this is such a sensitive and tricky scenario in the first place

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that if a child feels forced or pushed,

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they're going to recoil and shut down.

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And obviously the goal is not only the child is able to

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let someone know

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if and

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when something happened.

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But also that they can process it and heal appropriately

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and forcing a child to

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show what happened on an anatomically correct doll or

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forcing a child to go through a forensic interview

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or forcing a child to sit down and talk about good touch bad touch

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or forcing a child to answer questions

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about who,

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what,

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when,

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where,

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how and why

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you can see

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how not only re-traumatizing that is.

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But also it's not developmentally appropriate.

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Kids are not verbal,

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they're not rational,

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they're not cognitive.

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They have to experience and feel their way through things,

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not think and talk their way through things.

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So everything about the quote system,

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I'm air quoting because as I mentioned before,

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I think it's extremely broken.

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Everything about the system

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is wired to work with adults,

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is not wired to work with children.

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I've had

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many,

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many clients

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tell me horror stories

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of what it was like when the sheriffs or the police or the

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investigators show up and what the process was like when

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children were asked what happened.

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I've heard horror stories of what the medical

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exams that were forced on these kids were like

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to confirm or deny abuse.

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Uh,

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we're we're just,

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we're not doing justice and we're not doing right by children.

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So the age appropriate developmentally appropriate

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approach to this

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is CCPT.

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Why?

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Because

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we honor that a child is not going to want to talk about it.

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They're not going to want to think about it.

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They're not going to want to have conversations and answer questions about it.

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But they will absolutely work through it.

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And so

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we want parents to understand that all other stakeholders to understand that

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and we have evidence that it is effective.

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So this isn't I'm trying to sell you a bill of goods here,

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this is I will just show you the research

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that

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proves its efficacy.

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We have empirically supported data.

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That

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this is effective

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and it's age appropriate,

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so any other intervention

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you're running the risk

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of children recoiling backpedaling,

289
00:08:57,150 --> 00:08:57,950
closing,

290
00:08:58,369 --> 00:08:59,429
shutting down,

291
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,309
never wanting to bring anything up again

292
00:09:02,719 --> 00:09:05,830
because it's overwhelming and scary and too much for them.

293
00:09:07,119 --> 00:09:07,929
I've had

294
00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:09,869
quite a few children

295
00:09:10,039 --> 00:09:11,150
who have played out

296
00:09:11,479 --> 00:09:12,049
trauma,

297
00:09:12,219 --> 00:09:15,190
sexual abuse or physical abuse in play sessions with me.

298
00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:16,760
You always know it.

299
00:09:17,809 --> 00:09:19,330
That there is never a question.

300
00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:20,859
And,

301
00:09:20,869 --> 00:09:21,150
and I'm,

302
00:09:21,229 --> 00:09:23,090
I'm treading lightly here because

303
00:09:23,429 --> 00:09:24,669
this is not my.

304
00:09:25,539 --> 00:09:26,799
Specific wheelhouse.

305
00:09:27,059 --> 00:09:29,809
Jodi Mullen is your girl for

306
00:09:30,099 --> 00:09:33,059
sexual abuse and trauma working with CCPT.

307
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:35,349
Really helpful resource.

308
00:09:35,419 --> 00:09:36,020
If you want,

309
00:09:36,059 --> 00:09:36,419
if you,

310
00:09:36,460 --> 00:09:39,049
if your population has a lot of sexual abuse,

311
00:09:39,380 --> 00:09:41,140
Jodi Mullen has resources for you,

312
00:09:41,179 --> 00:09:43,520
that would be a really helpful place to start.

313
00:09:43,739 --> 00:09:45,869
So this is not my exclusive wheelhouse.

314
00:09:45,979 --> 00:09:46,239
I,

315
00:09:46,419 --> 00:09:47,900
I don't want to pretend that it is.

316
00:09:49,130 --> 00:09:50,159
But I would argue,

317
00:09:50,630 --> 00:09:51,619
just in my opinion,

318
00:09:51,630 --> 00:09:53,030
and feel free to email me and say,

319
00:09:53,109 --> 00:09:54,229
you have no idea what you're talking about,

320
00:09:54,330 --> 00:09:55,270
I'll fully accept that.

321
00:09:56,030 --> 00:09:57,760
In my experience and my opinion.

322
00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:00,229
When therapists come to me and go,

323
00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:00,840
oh,

324
00:10:00,919 --> 00:10:01,429
I don't know,

325
00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:02,520
could this have meant this,

326
00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:02,890
could,

327
00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:04,989
could this possibly have been indicating this?

328
00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:06,830
Do you think this is an indication of what,

329
00:10:07,039 --> 00:10:08,289
if there's a question,

330
00:10:09,010 --> 00:10:09,770
I would

331
00:10:10,039 --> 00:10:11,989
hold up and wait to see what happens.

332
00:10:13,830 --> 00:10:15,260
My work with children,

333
00:10:15,510 --> 00:10:17,039
it's really clear,

334
00:10:17,549 --> 00:10:18,580
really clear,

335
00:10:18,789 --> 00:10:19,640
evident

336
00:10:20,150 --> 00:10:21,619
what the child is working through.

337
00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:23,960
And so if,

338
00:10:23,969 --> 00:10:24,450
if there's a,

339
00:10:24,489 --> 00:10:24,799
oh,

340
00:10:24,809 --> 00:10:25,929
maybe I'm not sure,

341
00:10:25,969 --> 00:10:26,210
let's,

342
00:10:26,289 --> 00:10:26,760
let's see,

343
00:10:26,809 --> 00:10:26,969
I,

344
00:10:27,010 --> 00:10:27,169
I,

345
00:10:27,250 --> 00:10:27,979
let's pro

346
00:10:28,609 --> 00:10:30,650
you're probably not looking at

347
00:10:31,140 --> 00:10:32,570
what you think you're looking at.

348
00:10:33,450 --> 00:10:34,500
So,

349
00:10:34,849 --> 00:10:37,849
we have resources where we have 42,

350
00:10:37,890 --> 00:10:40,200
I think is what Holmeyer and Landreth identified

351
00:10:40,450 --> 00:10:42,099
as behaviors that are likely to come up

352
00:10:42,099 --> 00:10:45,359
in CCPT if children have experienced sexual abuse.

353
00:10:46,570 --> 00:10:49,159
If you see some of those behaviors emerging

354
00:10:49,690 --> 00:10:50,520
that should

355
00:10:50,969 --> 00:10:52,080
cause you to

356
00:10:52,799 --> 00:10:54,619
make note cause you to document,

357
00:10:54,770 --> 00:10:56,520
cause you to keep an eye on that,

358
00:10:57,049 --> 00:10:58,599
cause you to potentially make a report,

359
00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:00,210
cause you to speak to parents

360
00:11:00,690 --> 00:11:02,000
we have to advocate,

361
00:11:02,250 --> 00:11:03,000
we have

362
00:11:03,210 --> 00:11:05,070
legal and ethical obligations

363
00:11:05,469 --> 00:11:08,599
to report and to address things when they come up.

364
00:11:09,780 --> 00:11:11,200
We also know

365
00:11:11,549 --> 00:11:12,020
that

366
00:11:12,239 --> 00:11:14,140
this is an appropriate model

367
00:11:14,909 --> 00:11:15,539
for this,

368
00:11:15,789 --> 00:11:17,950
even though it is not well respected

369
00:11:18,190 --> 00:11:19,340
in other circles.

370
00:11:19,590 --> 00:11:20,070
So,

371
00:11:20,750 --> 00:11:21,000
Lisa,

372
00:11:21,070 --> 00:11:22,380
I hope that answers your question.

373
00:11:22,510 --> 00:11:23,750
I feel that

374
00:11:24,070 --> 00:11:25,460
we have enough support

375
00:11:25,750 --> 00:11:27,140
that we just need to fight

376
00:11:27,469 --> 00:11:28,229
to be heard.

377
00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:28,330
We,

378
00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:30,820
we need to fight to have a place at the table

379
00:11:31,150 --> 00:11:32,250
in the legal arena,

380
00:11:32,549 --> 00:11:35,380
and we need to advocate for kids because

381
00:11:35,669 --> 00:11:36,390
here's what I know.

382
00:11:36,469 --> 00:11:38,789
I don't know a whole lot about sexual abuse

383
00:11:38,789 --> 00:11:41,070
and and physical abuse and trauma with kids that's,

384
00:11:41,099 --> 00:11:42,630
that's not our main population.

385
00:11:42,869 --> 00:11:43,580
We see it,

386
00:11:43,710 --> 00:11:45,469
but it's not like all day every day.

387
00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:46,630
So,

388
00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:46,869
I,

389
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:48,710
I'm not an expert by any means,

390
00:11:48,979 --> 00:11:49,500
but

391
00:11:49,840 --> 00:11:51,030
what I know for sure,

392
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,169
I may not know other things,

393
00:11:52,239 --> 00:11:53,630
but what I know for sure

394
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,039
is that if you expect a kid to sit down and talk to you about what happened.

395
00:11:58,669 --> 00:12:01,080
You've lost your opportunity for healing for that kid.

396
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:03,760
If they don't trust you,

397
00:12:03,799 --> 00:12:04,520
if they don't know you,

398
00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:05,320
if they don't like you,

399
00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:06,280
if they don't feel safe,

400
00:12:06,380 --> 00:12:07,400
if they feel questioned,

401
00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:08,349
interrogated,

402
00:12:08,559 --> 00:12:10,239
if they feel they're gonna get someone in trouble,

403
00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:11,950
if they feel they have to protect someone,

404
00:12:12,119 --> 00:12:14,190
if they feel that there's gonna be some,

405
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:14,320
you know,

406
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:15,590
someone's gonna go to jail,

407
00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:17,469
whatever the scenario is.

408
00:12:18,869 --> 00:12:20,190
They're closing off,

409
00:12:20,349 --> 00:12:21,140
shutting down,

410
00:12:21,309 --> 00:12:22,140
that's the end of it.

411
00:12:23,450 --> 00:12:24,469
Kids are smart,

412
00:12:24,780 --> 00:12:25,500
kids are aware,

413
00:12:25,659 --> 00:12:26,969
kids are perceptive.

414
00:12:27,260 --> 00:12:30,729
We cannot think that we can push our agenda

415
00:12:30,979 --> 00:12:32,200
and then it's going to work.

416
00:12:32,460 --> 00:12:33,020
It will not,

417
00:12:33,059 --> 00:12:33,979
it will backfire.

418
00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:36,010
So,

419
00:12:36,210 --> 00:12:38,559
the most respectful,

420
00:12:39,210 --> 00:12:40,330
developmentally appropriate,

421
00:12:40,409 --> 00:12:41,450
age-appropriate

422
00:12:42,010 --> 00:12:42,679
process

423
00:12:43,049 --> 00:12:43,679
is

424
00:12:44,450 --> 00:12:46,539
give them the environment and the relationship

425
00:12:46,809 --> 00:12:48,919
where they feel safe and when they're ready,

426
00:12:49,130 --> 00:12:49,969
they'll process it.

427
00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:54,270
And then we need to have our protocols in place for

428
00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,989
when we make reports and how we document

429
00:12:57,159 --> 00:12:58,760
and what we share with mom and dad,

430
00:12:58,880 --> 00:12:59,200
etc.

431
00:12:59,239 --> 00:12:59,570
etc.

432
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:01,669
So that's on our end,

433
00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:02,200
but

434
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:03,989
the child has to

435
00:13:04,270 --> 00:13:06,349
feel that they can handle this,

436
00:13:06,799 --> 00:13:10,250
and they're not going to feel they can handle it if they're forced to sit down

437
00:13:10,250 --> 00:13:13,559
with a sheriff or a police officer sitting in front of them asking them questions,

438
00:13:13,599 --> 00:13:14,760
scaring them half to death.

439
00:13:15,799 --> 00:13:16,320
So,

440
00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:17,750
my two cents on that.

441
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:18,479
All right,

442
00:13:18,599 --> 00:13:18,880
Lisa,

443
00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:19,830
thanks so much for the question.

444
00:13:20,039 --> 00:13:21,830
I hope that that was helpful for all of you.

445
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:22,950
And

446
00:13:23,159 --> 00:13:25,119
I'm happy to answer your question too.

447
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:25,960
So if you want to reach out,

448
00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:26,340
let me know,

449
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:27,919
brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

450
00:13:27,929 --> 00:13:32,820
You can also leave me a voicemail at 813-812-5525 if you're in the states.

451
00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:33,830
And

452
00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:35,559
I will look forward to talking with you all again soon.

453
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:36,080
Love you all.

454
00:13:36,239 --> 00:13:36,479
Bye.

455
00:13:37,479 --> 00:13:40,349
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

456
00:13:40,510 --> 00:13:41,429
Brenna Hicks.

457
00:13:41,590 --> 00:13:43,549
For more episodes and resources,

458
00:13:43,710 --> 00:13:48,429
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.