Spirited Away with Ayumi Shinozaki

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Speaker 1: Hey, listeners, Just a quick note about this episode. Some of the audio is slightly distorted here and there. You'll hear some crackling. It's not terribly excessive, but it is there enough that you notice, so we just want to apologize for that. Hopefully it's not too disruptive to your listening experience, and we hope you enjoy the episode. On the Beck Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the Beck del Cast, Jamie Caitlin, it's getting dark. Oh no, we have to get you out of here. We have to get you out of this podcast because if you stay, get me out of your you're gonna turn into a pig and maybe also a spirit. So ship is it a metaphor for something? Maybe? Oh no, too late, now you have to get a job. Is it's probably capitalism? It's always capitalism, the environment or coming of age? Oh no, I'm a pig, like like um me eating uh smart ones? As we record, I'm like, oh no, slow down, you're smart ones slower. I think that was an incredible. That was a very I thought you were going to make me hold my breath is what I thought was going to happen. Oh, but also that would have be impossible to pass the bucktele test because I would be unable to speak. That's true. So my version was amazing. Ten out of ten. No notes, no, no, thank you. Welcome to the bucktele Cast. By the way, indeed, my name is Caitlin Darante. My name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we take a look at your favorite movies in the whole wide world using an intersectional feminist lens. And today kick off, I guess a unit that kind of makes it sound like this podcast to school. I don't love that, but a a unit of films that has been requested for years and years and years, and the time is now they're all finally, at least in the US, they are all streaming in a pretty accessible way, which is what we were waiting for for a long time, and then we just kind of waited another year for fun. Uh. But you needed to cover Shrek to priorities. Look, I mean, with with all due respect, there were some animated stories that needed to be looked at and and by that I mean in Shrek two and only Shrek two. Um. But yes, we were starting our Miyazaki month and we're starting with his Oscar winning film It's True, which I didn't really Well, we'll get into there's so much it's spirited away day. It is on the Besel Cast. Yes it is. Oh wait, we didn't say what the Bechdel Test was. I guess we should say that. We usually say that what is it? It's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace Test. There are many versions of it. Ours is this Two people of a marginalized gender with names have to speak to each other, and their conversation has to be about something other than a man, and ideally it's a narratively meaningful conversation. Yes, which in Miyazaki canon is not usually not a problem. Too hard at all. So very excited for today's episode. I can't wait to Okay, let's bring in our guests and then I have a really pressing question. An amazing guest today, We absolutely do. She's a writer, translator, host and producer of Sparkle Side Chats podcast. It's Ayumi Shinozaki, Hello, welcome. I was holding my breath waiting to be introduced. Wow, well you could finally breathe. Yes, it's wild because we couldn't see you from the beginning of the recording, and then we heard it a sharp exhale, and then you appeared. It's very excited to be here. Thank you for being here. We're so excited to kick things off with a spirited away episode with you. This is definitely an extremely American statement. However, immediately the second Lynn began speaking. I don't know if I remembered this from the first time I had seen this movie, but the moment Lynn began speaking, I was like, Oh, Megara Hercules, Disney's Hercules. It's all I mean I was. I was a big Hercules head. I don't know that that would fare very well on this show at all, but I really loved it when I was tiny and um her voice unmistakable, Yes, definitely, yes, I do think that. Um. One thing that's really interest thing about this movie in terms of, you know, why it's so well done, or like why it's so popular in the s S. Because it was the first one that was localized by Disney in particular because before that there were different other studios doing it, like sometimes it wasn't very successful. Um toto did I think the original total did? Okay? I think I remember watching that one in English, but this was the first Disney one. I think that you can definitely hear it in the localization makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was the whole adaptation process I watched. I meane it was a heavily, heavily disneyfied look at the adaptation process. But it was interesting. I've never sort of seen that process done before so closely with the with the filmmaker too. So let's let's get into it, and uh, what's your history and relationship with Spirited Away? Um? Yeah, So I guess my history with this movie is really connected to my history with Ghibili in general, which, um, you know, for anyone who has no idea who I am. Um, I am Japanese and white. Um. And my my father, who is a white American, he actually was like really really into movies, and so he got into Ghibli movies in the eighties, like through his best friend who was a Japanese American and they they used to basically do fan dubbing of the movies for their friends because it was just so inaccessible. Yeah, so, um, hold on, I actually did I I am both my parents to get at their their history of Gibilie before they got married. But um, yeah, so what he told me was, like, you know, they really went line by line and translated. They did Nashka, they did um The Castle of Kaiostro, which is a loop on the third movie but was also directed by Miyazaki, then Lapida, and then um also Across, which is not Ghibli but is a very big, like sci fi Japanese movie. But um, definitely, Like I was always closer to my father in the first place, but like, um, you know, when it comes to movies, and especially Jibli movies, I was always like watching them with this idea of like, you know, these are some of the best, you know movies out there, and like they were kind of the way to kind of understand that like animation was a genre and you know, like just because something is animated doesn't mean it's like less of a movie than a live action one. Um. But yes, since you know, in the you know, lady eighties and early nineties, a lot of more kid friendly Jubilee movies had come out, So those were the ones I definitely watched more, you know, Total and Kiki slivery service. But it wasn't until like thinking about my relationship to this movie that I realized how perfect this movie was for me. Because this movie came out in um well, originally came out in two thousan one in Japan, but I believe it came out in two two in the US in its localized version, and that's where I grew up. And in two thousand one, I, um I was ten years old, so at the same age as Hito was, and then um I had moved to uh well, I moved within New York City, but I had a pretty major move, and um yeah, it was just like this, uh this really interesting movie for me. And then the other thing is that this movie is very very based in like traditional Japanese folklore, which I never really had a relationship grow with growing up because my mother is in like this neo Buddhist group. For me, I call it a cult. They don't call it a cult, but whatever, that's neither he nor there. But the point is there very much they reject those like old ways and so on. So I really didn't have a relationship with those. So this was like me learning a lot about, you know, my own background in a way. So I was so obsessed with it. Um I was obsessed with how it looked. I was obsessed with the idea of like going to another world and getting a dragon boyfriend and all that so relatable. Very Jamie, what about your history? Um? I had seen this movie once before. I didn't grow up. I wish I had grown up in a household that was more. Um I guess active about getting me Yazaki movies because I only saw I think two growing up. I saw Kiki Delivery Service and spirited away both at my friend's house. Shout out, Samantha, Honeywell, um at least my recollection of it. Growing up, it was like there would be one kid that would have the Miyazaki movies. But it wasn't like they should have been in every household the way that there were five, you know whatever. My my parents were just like very very much and this isn't this is the most parents. You know, it's a hard life. But they would just be like, Okay, we're gonna go see the Disney one. We're gonna see Dana Carvey, Master of Disguise because for some reason I really wanted to see that. Other than that we would just go see the Disney movie. And but I wish that I had seen everything that was available younger. But I remember being so fixated on Kiki, like Kiki's Delivery Service was it. I loved it so much. I really liked Spirited Away. And I also vaguely remember thinking like, I don't know what the child's like equivalent of this, but I'm like this might be a little over my head when I was and I was a kid, because it's so beautiful and it's this amazing adventure. And I remember being scared of no Face and then also being amazed when she was nice to no Face because that didn't happen in movies the villain falls off a cliff at the end of a movie, but that like this, this movie is like so I don't know, I mean I had, I hadn't ever watched it um as an adult, and so preparing for this episode was so wild. There's just there's so much, it's such it I it's no longer over my head, although there's there's so much to talk about because it's because it's about capitalism and we ever heard of as adult have heard of her. Um. But I I really enjoyed prepping for this episode and just learning more about Miyazaki in general. I didn't know much about Um. I only knew kind of the broad strokes of his background, and so it was really cool learning about his background and his politics and and I'm very excited to talk about this, Caitlin, what's your history was Spirited Away? I did not have one. I had not seen it until prepping for this episode. I've watched it three times now because there's a lot to digest. It's a heady kids film. It really is if you're operating at a Shrek level, which I was and still am. Yeah, we kind of come in at the Shreky end point, and sometimes you gotta kind of level up, right. So I grew up with Totro. That was my absolute ship. But that was the only Miyazaki movie I saw until I think a couple of years ago when I saw kikiS, And then it was only within the past week that I watched Spirited Away. And now I really want to like make it a point to get through the entire uba of Miyazaki. But Um, I'm still working my way through it. I was not expecting Spirited Away to be so wild because scary, it's scary. There's a lot of like frightening imagery. There's a lot of just like wild stuff that happens. I mean, it's a children's movie set in like a horny bath house for spirits. Like it's just wild. So I was kind of expecting something more along the line of I mean, obviously, like there are elements of you know, fantasy, and in both Toto and kikiS delivery service, so I was expecting it to be like that but still kind of tame like those movies are, and then Spirited Away is just like, oh um, so it was. It was a wild ride for me. But yeah, I'm I'm excited to discuss and this is one of those episodes where like my notes make no sense and I it's mostly just like non binary icons. The Footballs is this movie about capitalism and environmentalism question mark Like it's just like, well, yeah, gold coins and rivers um. But it's so I mean, it's like, that's so incredible for for I mean, for any movie to like address either of those topics well or thoughtfully, much less a movie that is like very accessible and like understanding of kids too. It's just this movie blew my mind. I really really love it. Yes, So with that in mind, should I do the recap? Yes? Yes, Okay. I do feel like I left out some details of the story in the interest of brevity, because this movie it was difficult to concisely recap, because again, there are so many things that happened. There's a lot of details. But I did my best. Okay. So we meet to Hero, a ten year old girl who is in the car with her mom and dad and they are all headed to the new house they're moving into. On the way, they come upon this odd building with a long, dark tunnel and they decide to walk through it, and on the other side they find this abandoned the park, and despite to Hero's protests, they all walk through the tunnel go into the park, and her parents find this food vendor and start chowing down on a ton of food right away they I thought it was like I had to there's I don't know. I mean, obviously was not picking up on this as a child, but like right away the script is referencing like contemporary Japanese history that I had to keep pausing and being like wait, what where I think it's to hero's father when they first get to the um abandoned theme park. He like mentions stock crash like an economic crash, and like contextualizes why the park was abandoned. And it's done so quickly and so easily, Like I just it's so well done. It's so cool. Yeah, even like the very very beginning, like the opening shot of the movie, like thinking about it, I mean they have her read over what the card is, but like you open with the shot of the bouquet of flowers and this card from Tokito's friends, you know, saying like I'll miss you and all of that, and it's just like the way that it just doesn't hesitate to just get you right into the story. So it just it's really great. There's so much that happens, and it's very it doesn't stop to have to like explain everything in you know, amazing detail or whatever. And as and as a group that just did the Door of the Explorer movie. Not all movies are like that. A lot of movies it's part of the form to stop and tell you what you're watching, right, Okay, So her parents are eating all of this food, and to Hero wanders off and she sees this bath house and she's like, wow, I wonder if I'm going to end up in there for the next several weeks question Mark Unclaire. Then she bumps into another kid who says, you shouldn't be here. You need to leave before it gets dark, and she's like, what was that all about? But she runs back to her parents, and while she's doing that, the park seems to becoming alive and is occupied by spirits. So then she finds her parents, who have turned into pigs. So scary, Yeah, how like I that's one moment that and no face. I remember the two moments that I was like, like, the idea of leaving your parents you come back in their pigs? Yep, still scary. So she starts freaking out and she tries to leave, but the way they came in is now under water. Then she watches a bunch of spirits disembark a fairy and head into the bath house. And then that kid, Haku, finds her again and he wants to help to Hero find her parents and leave. So Haku tries to sneak to Hero into the bath house, but she is discovered by all of the creatures and and spirits as being a human because she has to just it's so good the whole Like I really like whenever a writer finds something that, like, you just know, kids were super receptive to seeing it in theaters, like being asked to hold your breath and like that whole thing, Like it just I don't know. I was doing it as I was watching it, and I'm old, but like as a kid, you're like, oh, that's such a smart thing to do as a writer, because there's no kid watching that movie who's not going to try to do the same thing and also probably not make it. It's so good. So she's discovered as being a human. So they have to run away, and Hawku tells her that if she wants to help her parents, she has to go to the boiler room and ask Kamagi for a job, and if she doesn't get a job, you Boba, the witch who runs the bath house, will turn to hero into an animal. So we're like, Okay, the steaks are high and it's like boiler roum, what is this Titanic? Okay, that was the Titanic reference I was able to find. Yeah, this movie does have a small connection to Titanic. I suppose technically speaking, yes, I wonder if we have the same fact, would you like to share yours? Yeah, it's um. So this movie was the top grossing movie in Japan until uh yeah, in late was usurped by the neat Demon Slayer movie, which is whatever, but not for me. But it's fine. Um but yeah, so it went for not almost yeah, nineteen years it was the top movie in Japan, and before that that was Titanic. Yeah, I have the same fact. Yes, yes, Titanic had a brief rain, but it had to end. Okay. So Camagi, the boiler room man turns out to be a guy with six arms and all these little balls of soot work for him, and Camachi does not want to help to Hero at first, but then he warms up to her and tells her that she'll have to make a deal with you Baba if she wants to work at the bath house. So then this woman named Lynn takes to Hero to see you Baba, and along the way we get a lot of visuals of the bath house. We see some spirits enjoying themselves, et cetera. Lynn appears to be kind of like the head of the cleaning women, and she's she's like the head of cleaning. Yeah, yeah, yes. So then Hiro finally meets you Baba, who has a baby, a large baby, but does any baby A big old baby, A huge baby in the English dub voiced by Tommy Pickles expert bay b Who is that Tara Strong? Tara Strong? Yeah, okay, she's like an iconic. I mean she's been she's she's Bubbles from Powerpuff Girls. I can go on about. She's like an animation legends. Great. I think she's like probably I would say maybe the top most like famous female voice actress in the US if I had to pick someone, got it. I don't know my voice actors. I guess okay, like yeah, it's like, yeah, I was just I was delighted to find out that she was big baby. She's big baby. You Babba also has a few little minions, including a trio of green heads that bounce around. She also has a crow that looks like her, or like a bird of some kind that looks a lot like her. So you Babba makes to Hero sign an employment contract, and in so doing takes away to Hero's name and says that her name is now sen for the sake of this recap, though, I'm going to keep calling her to Hero. It's what she'd want, It's exactly so. Then Haku returns to set to Hero up with a job, but he's acting cold and distant now for some reason, she gets assigned to be Lynn's assistant, and Hero continues to have a difficult time adjusting and processing all this wild stuff that's going on due to being thrust into child labor. Because because you're trying to save your parents who are now pigs, you know, they're like, the only way to save your parents is child labor. I was like, jeezy, but this is all going somewhere, so don't worry. So then Haku, who is nice and warm again, takes chikiro to see her parents at the pig Pen, and Haku tells her that he can't remember his real name, and you Baba controls I think, like all of the staff of the bathhouse by stealing their names. Then she sees Ku flying through the air because he can turn into a dragon. He's so crushable that Haku, yes, like and I will get plat but like, I appreciate how Yazaki generally doesn't like push romantic narratives, particularly on children, which a stunning number of children's movies cannot say for some reason. But if if your tend watching that movie, you can see what you want to see. You can see a dragon boyfriend in the distance. You can see a dragon friend in the distance. You know, sure, I have the beholder. Yeah, personally, I saw a dragon boyfriend. I saw a dragon friend. And it could just be because I'm watching this for the first time as a thirty five year old and not thinking about child romances. But I think that that's actually really healthy. If you yeah, I would be concerned if I would maybe be worried if he saw a dragon boyfriend. Okay. Also, Chahiro occasionally passes this spirit who we will come to know as No Face. Um, but we don't fully meet No Face yet. So Chahiro starts working in the bath house and after a while she lets No Face in, who has just again kind of been lurking around outside. Chahiro and Lynn have to clean this really big tub, and No Face helps her get this token she needs for the tub. He seems to like, really take a liking to Jahiro. I wrote down embarrassingly, I wrote down, No Face is like meat Loaf and Fight Club. He's just waiting outside, and he's like, some days someone's gonna my day is gonna come and they're gonna let me in. I the similarities end, but I was like, oh, he's like, I don't know why. Now, anytime someone's waiting outside, I'm like, oh, like meat Loaf and fight Club. Um, but that's how associate waiting outside for a long period of time. Well. Also famously, meat Loaf and Fight Club communicates by going oh yeah, much like no Face. So actually, the similarities don't end there. So meanwhile, a stink spirit shows up at the bath house and needs a bath in the big tub that Jihiro and Lynne just cleaned, and everyone is grossed out by the stink spirit, which turns out to not even be a stink spirit. It's a river spirit that just had a bunch of trash lodged in it, which to Hero figures out and helps get all of the trash out. After that, the reverse spirit leaves behind a small round ball I'm not quite sure exactly what it is, it's just a little gift plot pellet right, and also leaves behind a bunch of gold, which very much pleases you Baba, and you Baba compliments to Hero for doing a good job and making her a bunch of money. Now, speaking of gold, we learn that No Face, who is still just sort of lurking around, seems to be able to just conjure gold in his hands, which he uses. And Fight Club could not do that. I think his story would have ended very differently. That would be a very different movie. Yeah, we love a conjugal Okay. So No Face uses his gold making abilities to lure in a frog and then he eats the frog. Then we cut to the next day and No Face is just like going wild. He's eating a ton of food, he's giving away a bunch of gold. Things are going off the rails. Meanwhile, a bunch of what appears to be paper birds are chasing Haku in dragon form and he gets badly injured and is losing a lot of blood. So Hiro is kind of rushing around trying to help him, trying to save him. Meanwhile, No Face is eating people like he's just things when a little too far in Capitalism Cafeteria. Yeah, so Tahiro is still kind of rushing around trying to clean up some messes. She bumps into you Boba's baby baby. She also bumps into you Baba's twin sister, Zeneba, who turns the baby into a mouse and turns the bird into a much smaller bird. And Zeneba is there because she wants the golden seal that Haku had stolen from her, which Hawko later vomits up, so Chihiro decides to return it to Zeneba so that Haku will be free of its curse and he will get better. Hihiro is an angel. She's doing a lot of emotional labor. She's really yeah, she's really doing it all. Yeah, I love her. I mean there's always the like, you know, women are conditioned to apologize too much, and she's taken like that's being taken a step further here because she's apologizing for behalf of a dragon boyfriend. Right, Yes, yes, that's a very Japanese thing though, like it's I think like in general it's not it's not necessarily as gender. I mean, it definitely is in this particular case. But yeah, like you know, in Japan, it's like if someone bumps into you, you apologize for being in the way. It's the kind of thing. So yeah, I do think that I don't think it's as like I didn't read it as that way as much. Maybe that's good to know. Yeah, yeah for for me, what saw I mean, I I appreciate that context too, because I just didn't know I've I was like, well, it's she's U. It felt more like a friendship sacrifice, right, and like going to apologize to I don't I mean, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know why when a woman apologizes to another woman. I'm like, well, it could be worse. Sure, Okay, So she's about to set off to go to Zenibus to apologize, but first Chihiro has to play Kate No Face, who is now way bigger, way more monstrous. He's eaten so much food, he's eaten several other spirits. Tahiro then feeds him the gift from the river spirit, which makes No Face barf up everything he's eaten, including the people and that frog he barts. He barfs up the capitalism metaphor that he was eating, and then Shahiro learns No Face out of the bath house, and he returns to his former state and accompanies Tahiro, the Mouse and the Little Blackbird on their journey to Zaniba's place, they get on a train. We get that I think one of the most iconic shots of the movie where they're sitting next to each other. Meanwhile, back at the bath house, Hakku wakes up feeling all better, and Camaji tells him that love broke the spell. So again we're like, is this like dragon boyfriend slash girlfriend love? Is this platonic love? It's open to interpretation, but love broke the spell. So Hako goes to you Baba and points out that her baby is gone, and she's like, oh, yeah, I guess you're right, and he's like, well, i'll go and retrieve your baby if you tear up Jahiro's contract and return her and her parents to the human world. Meanwhile, Chihiro arrives at Zeneba's, who tells Shahiro that she'll have to help her parents and Hako on her own, but remembering her past might help with this, especially since Shahiro thinks she's met Haku before. Then Zaniba gives her a little gift. It's a it's a hair tie, sparkly hair tie that I forgot about that detail, and it's a nice touch. It's so sweet. Then Haku shows up as a dragon, and he flies Chahiro back to the bath house, and on the way she remembers meeting Haku before because he saved her when she was drowning as a younger kid. Because Haku is actually the Khaku River, which no longer exists because it's been filled in by apartments. So you find out your dragon boyfriend is also your river boyfriend, and you're just like you're ten years old. And then it also it also does what is what is this trope? I'm trying to think of another like, Okay, Tuck over Lasting, Twilight, Spirited Away, an eternal being is like my love interest is a teenager or younger, and it's just something it's not It's not egregious in this movie because it isn't explicit. And again it's like you can very much opt in or opt out depending on I guess how old you were when you first saw the movie question mark. But but I just I mean, that is always an interesting trope to see crop up, because I feel like it's rarely I mean, these are usually hetero matchups to begin with, but but it's rarely the the girl in the equation that gets to be an eternal being. It's usually an old man who's seventeen, but he's actually five hondo and it's like the Peter Pan thing. Yeah. Yeah, Well, so she's got a river slash dragon boyfriend and awesome chaherin Hucku returned to the bath house where you Baba has one final test for chi Hero, which she passes, so to Hero is free. She gets her name back. She reunites with her parents and they walk back to their car, and it seems like this all could have been a dream, but there are little hints that the whole thing really happened, including we see her sparkly headband. There's like dust and debris on the car, because if it's been there for a long time, the implication being at all actually happened. The hairband proves it happened. That's her how I Beat Shack moment. We've talked about this moment on the show before. I forget. Yeah, yeah, what episode was that? That's very funny. I don't know, but I know that it's the convention where was it a dream or not? It used to be a Wizard of Oz, but but then it later became the Aaron Carter How I Beat shack, he beat shock and his dream was it a dream? Well, he woke up and he was wearing Shaquille O'Neil's jersey, so it wasn't a dream. He did beat check, sort of like how was Rose dreaming at the end of Titanic? And some would say, yes, yes she was, she wasn't and there's no proof. And then and then I say, wait a minute, I think it's just as viable and option if she was dreaming, but irrefutable proof. You don't have a hair tie, you don't have the Shaquille O'Neal jersey. Anyways, anyways, let's take a break story. Let's take a quick break, and we'll come right back, and we're back. Amy, is there anywhere you would like to start anything jumping out to you right away? Um? I guess like there's there's a lot of contexts. I think it's really interesting for this story. Um. Yeah, I think in particular, there's like, again, the localization was pretty incredible all things considered, and I do think that is again a really really big reason why the movie did so well and was so successful in English. Um. But I do think that the context for this story and why it stands out compared to early or ghibli works is really important. So um, the I guess the main thing being that, you know, Miyazuki has said that he made this movie because he had realized he hadn't made a movie for like, uh, for young girls yet. Like I would say, kikiS liber service kind of is, but that is an adaptation and um in this case, like, so what he did, he like was interacting I think with like some daughters of his friends and realized that like he hadn't made a story for them quite yet. Um. So you know, UM, I think that's part of why, um, you know, to Hero is ten years old. I think that this story and the the way that he kind of got the idea was reading um comics that were being published at this time. The readings that I saw specifically cited um Nakashi Magazine and Ribbon Magazine, and these are two of the major uh they're like basically three major magazines for young girls in terms of comics that published monthly, and um Naco she's a big one because that's like where Sailor Moon was published in a bunch of stuff like that. And so I was looking back at the I went specifically to look back at what was being published in you know, and two thousand for what he probably was reading basically, and you know, yeah, so you know, luckily, because these are really big magazines, it's really easy to get the information, and so you know, just looking at some of the stuff, um, you know, they're they're all like there's you know, other magical girls at this time. Um, and uh there's also like stories like the UFO Baby, um, which is like an alien baby comes from space and like someone has to take care of it or whatever. Like, uh, there's lots of all kinds of really ridiculous fun things that happened. Um, there's a lot of sci fi and fantasy elements in these stories. But I think that as far as stuff that is kind of relevant to spread it away, I think one of the major things is, like, you know, a lot of these comics for why think, Uh, these comics are almost always illustrated and written by women. It's like this particular genre of comics for girls in Japan, it's very for for you know, decades now, has been a very female lead um industry. But um, you know, these are stories that are meant to appeal to like this exact demographic, so there's often like a little bit of romance. Um there is uh to have like characters like a hawk like character, right who is like you know, like you mentioned like this kind of eternal boyfriend or whatever. That is not uncommon um, but uh yeah, I think that one thing that really stands out in comparison to this movie is that a lot of the stories, if they have fantasy or sci fi elements, they're definitely more inspired by Western things, while Spirited Away, of course, is extremely Japanese. So I do think that that is an interesting like difference, I guess if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, And I was reading a lot about that context too, in terms of you know, Miyazaki wanting to create a film specifically for ten year old girls, and which I found interesting because like several of his movies before that are like very appropriate for that specific target demo, because like I was watching Toto as a ten year old girl, like you know, kikiS delivery services appropriate for a ten year old girl, even though that character is a few years older. But I mean kids love a few years older. That's aspiration. Um. Yeah, that he was like reading these comics and felt that they only offered material about like girls and their crushes and romances, and he felt that that's not what at least like the you know, daughters of his friends that he ended up wanting to make this movie for what they deer in their hearts. So he wanted to make this movie and about a female heroine that those girls could look up to. So and that's I think one of the other reasons that I didn't read the Haku to hero relationship as a romance, because he deliberately was like, well, I don't want this to be about like crushes and romance, but he gave us that shot with the hands at the end, so you know, right, But also the movie doesn't center around their relationship. It's more about to hero, you know, doing child labor. So yeah, yeah, it's definitely her story, which is important, um, and he is like a factor of the story. But like I think, you know, I definitely see it as like something where I think it's like, for example, I was trying to think of like how they would take the time to make it an explicit romance, and like, I guess the thing that would have to happen is like something like the kissing, But that really seems unlikely to me because like not to say that kissing doesn't happen in kids stories or whatever, especially with like hetero stories, but like kissing is a lot more um for me, a lot more adult, a lot more sexualized in Japanese culture, especially at this time. Um but even today it's still the case. Um. So it's like it would be very shocking to go that far. I think there would have been issues if they had gone that far. And I think that for the most part, with Miyazuki films, they never actually go through, like fully going in a romantic route, even if they kind of have a lot of like implied romance and a lot of subtext um which is you know, nice for the reason like you said, like you can opt in or out of whether or not you read it as romantic, which I think. I think it's more clear in a story like um like Ponio, which comes out later, and that's like taking the Little Mermaid story but making the characters five. It's very interesting. Um So it's like you really can't have like a romance with five year olds that last forever exactly, but they they so they changing around. But um yeah, I think with this story, like I do like that, and I do think that it's it is a thing where a lot of kids, especially young girls who you know might be interested in voice, would uh like appreciate that particular aspect. And yeah, I think I definitely am. I don't I know hashtag phrases. Most of the most of the kids I know who like grew up with this movie also read it as romantic, if that makes sense. And when you contextualize it to where Miyazaki was turning for inspiration and like, what were girls you know who were his target audience actually reading and you know, pulling from magical girl tropes in a way that felt like it's still fit in with who he was as a filmmaker. It's like, I don't know, I wasn't for the reasons you were describing. I mean, I wasn't really bothered by it, because you can read it that way or not. It's true to the like subculture for young girls that he's pulling from, and the story doesn't fall apart if you don't view it romantically. The story remains basically the same. And I also, I mean, we don't try to get in the habit of handing it to men too much, but Miyazaki. I will make an exception because just of how I feel like it's very rare to see uh male o'tour who we talked about on this show all the damn time, and it fits very cleanly into that description. But someone who has committed to centering women in his work very often, And also I mean what you were describing, it sounds like over time he was more committed to it, which I feel like often with male tours, you see like I'll have one female protagonist, so people will leave me alone. It might there might be some holes in the story and it might not be good, but I did it. Uh here's my gone girl or whatever you know, and she's gone, but she's not in the movie anyways. But I appreciate that, Like Miyazaki, like you're saying, Caitlin like centered girls in his work very frequently, but also was like, but I can take it further, and I can, you know, show this like spiritual growth and like reconciling capitalism and the sins of her parents generation. I also loved this movie hates boomers. It's like it's fun, Like this movie like has in a way that doesn't really single out um to heroes. Parents specifically, but it's clear that like you know, I mean, and then the more that I was reading and researching, and I'm curious to talk about this as well of just how the parent characters and the pigs of capitalism and all that was like reflecting on Japan's fairly recent history as well, and I just I don't know, I really enjoyed learning about Miyazaki's personal politics through researching this. And we'll continue to talking about this as we continue talking about these movies. But his movie is pretty consistently center girls and women. Uh, they tend to be very anti war. He won an Oscar for this movie and didn't show up to the ceremony because he was protesting the war in Iraq and America's brutal invasion, and like he just really appears to be a real one in many regards. Yeah, yeah, And like we've been discussing, he has, it seems invested interest in exploring the like inner lives of girls and making movie that I mean, children of all genders can appreciate, but that like girls especially can see themselves reflected in, especially because his movies are like applauded for their realism, which might sound weird because a lot of them are so heavy with fantasy. That was a weird way to say that, But I think fantasy is really good. I like it's like when you're heavy with greg when you're gregnant, but you're heavy with fantasy. So um. But just like the relatable issues that a lot of the girls in his movies are dealing with, there are a lot of like you know, coming of age stories they're dealing with, just like different sources of anxiety in their life. And we see how that kind of manifests in the super imaginative stories that are told in the movies. And I think that's just like such an interesting thing because so many male at tours don't have that vested interest and they're just like, let's make toxic masculinity the movie five times in a row, or even just like a passing curiosity. And another thing I mean that I appreciate it is to Hero's story speaks to kids of all genders, and it's it's I also appreciate that too, because I feel like sometimes there's still this kind of convention right now in this movie is twenty years old, but there's still a convention of you know, taking that like every story is about fathers and sons, and then then just being like inverting it and being like, Okay, we're gonna put a girl at the center of this story, so things have to be a little different, and that it doesn't like she's a relatable, motivated character who like messes up sometimes succeeds other times in ways that make kind of a stunning amount of sense in this like nonsense where old that she's inhabiting. I really liked um when she first meets Hako and she's told, you know, she's being told by everyone, don't trust this person. Don't trust this person. Don't trust this person, and it was like even unclear to me, as if you were. I'm like, who can she trust? And like watching her navigate that and sometimes take one step in the wrong direction and take a few like it just she's just like a very realistically characterized kid, and I like that she's you know, rewarded for not just taking gold, Like she's like there's a dragon dying nearby. I can't I can't with your gold right now, you know? Yeah, yeah, she has very clear priorities and like, I mean, I do think I was thinking about like how like in terms of how she moves throughout the story, what amount of it is her doing stuff on her own. And like, you know, at the very beginning, you know, Hawku is very clear about telling her what to do. But once she gets to Camagi, you know with that whole thing, um, you know, it's up to her to actually convince him. And she doesn't convince him to get a job there, but um, she is able to you know, have an effect to like at least enough of an effect that he like pushes her in the right direction, right, um, because it could ev all like stopped there if you know he said no and she's like, well, okay, I'm screwed. But yeah, just he's able to keep going and everything. So and her her actions there and throughout the movie, but like again just kind of from that starting point in the boiler room, like her choice is there affect the trajectory of the story because then she like picks up a piece of coal and then like throws it in the fire, and I guess that shows like, oh she is maybe capable. And then actually something I found really fascinating about this movie, And I think it's so it's like so cool that this is clearly or at least the way I interpreted it, that the experiences that she goes through in this story are like manifest stations of her anxiety of like moving to a new place and like worrying if people will accept her, and like having to reorient everything about her life because she has left all of her friends behind and everything that was familiar to her and she has to like navigate this extremely unfamiliar situation, and like that's so much of what happens externally in the movie. So I thought that was like just a really cool way to like show a character's anxieties manifested in like a visual, physical way. Um. But part of that is her meeting all these people and like having to just kind of get a sense of them, and a lot of the first impressions that we as the audience get and that she gets turned out to be wrong, because, like, for example, Comagi seems way scarier and meaner than he actually is, and a lot of that is like kind of the visual thing where it's like he has these long spider like arms, there are six of them, and he starts out being really annoyed by her, but then by the end of that scene he's like she's my granddaughter. And then like, Lynn also seems like just very annoyed by Jahiro, and it seems like she's going to be that way for the entire movie. And I the first time I watched this, I was like, oh, no, is this going to be like a needlessly antagonistic relationship between two female characters. But it's not, because as soon as Jahiro kind of expresses some vulnerability and she's like, I don't feel well and she's very clearly overwhelmed by everything that's happening, Lynn is like, oh my god, are you okay? Like, and then she like kind of takes on this caregiver role, or at the very least she becomes her like ally and mentor. It feels very like big history or that. Guess maybe that was like my eat of it as a kid, and Lynn's character arc is so interesting to me. I feel like revisiting Lynn's character as like a young adult under Capitalism, you really feel for Lynn in a way that I certainly. I mean, as a kid, you're a percent You're like, I am che hero and that is my dragon boyfriend and like, but but you know, at this stage of my life, I feel like the closest analog for for most of us is Lynn, who is working in a service role in this big capitalistic entity. She is well liked but not well treated, and and you don't get a ton of information about her backstory, but what you do is so like, so I don't know, just like the the economy of storytelling is so good because there really one insight you it into who she is and what she wants. Is like she watches the train pass every day and wonders like, when is it going to be my day to to get on that train? And by that she means not working this dead end job that I don't like and where I'm not treated well and where you know, it becomes her responsibility in a way that you know, is it fair? Is it not? It's not fair, but I think it's the right thing to do that she she takes on to Hero and almost sees like it seems like a younger version of herself of like, well, I hope that this kid can get on the train, and then she does and it's nice. Yeah, what's interesting is um, I think it's really unclear And I think also the voice actress choice in English doesn't really help with this but according to like the original story, there's like a I mean, this is one of those things. There's like so many story notes about this movie. Lynda is supposed to be fourteen in the original like iteration, yeah, I guess that. Yeah, she's giving me a hard thirty two, right. I know she sounds she's out like an adult in English for sure, and I feel like I definitely got that when I was watching it in English before. But like you know what, in preparation for this podcast, I think the first thing I did was I watched the full thing in Japanese without like taking any notes or anything, and so I feel like there are a few characters that have pretty distinct differences, but hers is definitely the biggest one. So like I think in Japanese, she definitely sounds more like an older sister, but like she's also like a like the way she carries herself. She uses like very like hyper masculine language in a way that like she's like trying to I guess, make up for the fact that like she is a teenage girl. Um, I think it's really interesting. But yeah, I definitely see her as being a very much like a big sister to Chito. For that reason. Yeah, I liked their relationships so much, and that there was like even moments towards the end of the movie where there's even like these passing moments in this movie where the characters are misjudging each other or like not giving Like there's that moment that I was like, I think it's Camagi that says to Lynn in a way that I thought it was a little bit harsh that you know. Lynn was like, oh, what broke the spell on Hakku? And Camagi is like, love something you've never felt in your life? And I was like, WHOA, holyh it. And I was like, I thought you guys were like kind of friends. And he's saying that in kind of the same breath where he's like, yeah, I've had I know that it's your one dream in your life to have a train ticket. I've had one for thirty years. Anyways, you've never felt love in your life. I was like, wow, brutal. I didn't think that was very nice to win. And then I was worried that. I mean, I guess that that was it's just like again speaking to like how how good this is? Where I feel like, especially in kids movies, sometimes I am conditioned to think that if there is a kind of dialogue spoken by a character that I'm not supposed to hate, I interpret their dialogue as the moral compass of the movie, because that's how a lot of children's movies are written, where you're like, well, I don't know if if fucking Lumier says it, it's probably how bad could it be? But again, there's like shades of grain and everyone in this movie where like, we we like Camagi as a character very much at this point, and then he kind of like cuts Lynn down in this very I thought, kind of I don't know why I was, so I was like I was scandalized by it, and I was worried that. I was like, oh, are we not supposed to like Linn anymore? Because I still like her? And then in the next scene, Lynn is being her big sister self again and she apologizes to Chihiro for calling her a dope, which is like, I don't know what the translation, but I just was like, what a worried to apologize for. Later she's like, sorry, I I said that when we first met, like you're great and you're blah blah blah, and so that weird offhanded thing from Camogi isn't how the movie felt, That's just how Camaji felt in that moment. For some reason, I'm like, where's Kamoji apologized to Lynn? That wasn't very nice? Yeah, I noticed a lot um because they had the chance to to watch it in both languages. I noticed that there are some some things where the line read in English is like more sarcastic or more rude in some cases than in Japanese, where it's like more straightforward or more maybe not necessarily like polite. Now I don't remember the line read for like that exact thing, but like one thing I remember for sure is um. You know, in like near the beginning, Um, when when is going to Chehito to ask her to like eat the little berry from the spirit worlds that she wouldn't disappear. In English, he's like, don't worry, you won't turn to a pig, like you know, making a joke, but like in jack Nis, he's completely serious about that line. So it's really interesting, Like there are there are definitely some interesting things where like there are kind of added things due to the localization, which isn't bad. I think, you know, it's a very very good localization and I think again that it's part of why it's so successful. Um yeah, that's fascinating. I hate to give Disney a lot of credit, but yeah, right, especially because like John Lasseter had so much involvement in this and you like never pleasant to see him. Yeah, because like because of him, um he like they took on doing all the other Ghibli movies from before and so, um it's kind of interesting to like look back at old like older Ghibli movies that have now been dubbed by Disney um and see like more familiar. There are a a lot of Disney names and so on. But um, I mean I think it's good because they're very good at local ie thing and they took they did a lot of things to like kind of fill in um like cultural things that might not be as clear to an English speaking audience. Um, Like there are there are lines that are completely different because like they're trying to like explain something because you know, you can't expect everyone to know what like the Radish spirit is or something like that. But um oh, the other one that I remember was you know when so because like Hito gives the first half of that little uh the little ball to um hakku and that's when he vomits out the seal and the slug. Yeah, and she has to step on it, and they like explain the whole thing with like putting her forefinger and thumb together, and they don't explain that in Japanese. Um, they just do it. But because Kamachi's off screen and they're able to like add that line in and stuff. So it was like very very clever, yeah and helpful. Yeah that I mean, I wish I wish I knew more about that process without having to watch twenty minutes of John Last that are talking, because it is so fascinating. Like, yeah, I think, I mean, I have the Blue Ray in uh in English because wow brag, Yeah, but so you can watch it. I think the North American Blue Ray has both the English and French dub as well as the original Japanese and even the French localization is different. It's really interesting. Yeah, I mean, and in the Disney dub, I mean you we I guess mentioned this right away where I was like hercules, but they they really I mean, and usually when I say usually when anyone says Disney, it's pejorative, but in this one it was kind of it was like funny to me, just like how specifically this era Disney the dub cast is where literally the voice of Lilo is the voice of Hiro, the voice of Max goof of a goofy movie is Haku. Like, it's so Disney, what about an extremely goofy movie though, Yeah, same guys work. The guy who did Cogsworth and Beauty and the Beast is Comagi. I mean, the list goes on. It's it's a whole lot of a whole lot of um. Anyways, let's take a quick break and come back for more discussion, and we're back. I said a few more thoughts on to Hero's character before we kind of move into the next area. Yeah, I mean one thing that struck me, I mean is and this is again such a small thing, but I like that she is consistently positioned as even when she is confused and doesn't know what to do, she's always positioned as a strong, resilient character. Like her not knowing what's going on or not having the skill that she needs yet is never posed as like a reason to judge her in a way that sometimes they think we're like conditioned to see female characters, especially young female characters as like helpless and damseled and unable to get out of their predicament on their own. A lot of that is to to Disney movies that you know, we're working on the same movie or or the like. The I guess converse of that is that the right word? Why did my brain shut off? Anyway? The inverse? I was like, it's not converse. That can't be right the shoe. The inverse of that is the precocious you know, ten or twelve year old girl that we see all the time, where they somehow are geniuses with PhD s and they know everything about all adult things. None of that is is present in two Hero. And on top of that, like she is not, I mean she is. She openly cries at several times in the story in a way that again it is like she's allowed to have these moments of strength and decisiveness. She's allowed to have moments where she has no idea what the fun is going on, because like you, as the viewer, I have no idea what the funk is going on? And you have moments where she like very understandably in the way that any character, but particularly a ten year old who has just lost her parents to becoming a pig, which also I was like, I wonder how Miyazaki was into animal Farm and the answer is very he was very into animal Farm and it shows. But but that she's allowed these moments of intense emotional vulnerability in a way that doesn't take like it only elevates her character, because I feel like that it just like reminds you, as an adult viewer now like this is a child, and and like, of course she's going to cry when confronted, but yet another stranger who she doesn't know if she can trust or not. And I liked that she's very much a hero and an aspirational character for kids watching, but in a way that again for the for the genre, and like the situation she's in, it feels really realistic of like how a kid would react in that situation. Yeah, can we talk about the first time she cried, because that's like a really I think a big I think one of the visually one of the more iconic parts of the whole movie. But yeah, because like for the first part of her being in the bathhouse, she's like kind of just holding everything in, um, you know, doing what she has to do, and like not really complaining about it or anything, just like being really headstrong because she has to be. But then it's like we see that, you know, she's having trouble sleeping, and then how coo, Like while she's a while she's in the room with all the other women, he kind of like sneaks and is like, oh, meet me by you know this by the bridge, and she goes, and like they do the whole thing with the parents, and he gives her clothes back because she needs them to go back to the human world, and she and also the cards and she can remember her name, and then he gives her the rice balls um which he says I don't know if they're actually is a spell on them or if he just saying that, but he says like, oh, this will give you your strength back. And I think it's basically the same in Japanese. And that's the first time she cries, and she cries so big, like her eyes well up in her like it's just like her entire eye just like turns into a puddle. It's it's definitely an iconic like visual to say the least. But I think it's really interesting that like it's when she's you know, finally given that chance to be vulnerable and like let it all out that like you can really see that she is has been holding in those tears the whole time. Yeah, and that's what's so great all this movie. And again I haven't watched all of Miyazaki's work, but of the ones that I have seen and can speak to his treatment of these characters in showing them being active and making choices but making mistakes, and being vulnerable but having the strength to go on and do what you need to do and just like all of these like aspirational and empowering qualities that like young girls can see and admire. That to me is the most like one of the most effective versions of feminism in movies, more so than for example, my favorite example to make fun of is like when in whatever Avengers movie when all of the like seven female superheroes like start walking beside each other and they're like, and now it's our turn, and we're gonna have this one moment for twenty seconds in the movie where we're awesome to protect Spider Man, right, Like It's so it's like, truly just treat women like people, like that's all you just described as treating a people character like a person, like the's a complicated person, which, like when I was reading a few different accounts of like people being like it's so cool that your movies are so feminist Muzaki, and he was like, I don't know about that. I just want to entertain people and write interesting characters. So yeah, like that's all it takes. Yeah, yeah, definitely, Like obviously, I'm really happy that this movie does feature a ten year old girl, but you wouldn't have to change anything about the movie if it was about a ten year old boy or a ten year old on my dairy child, So like it's yeah, it's it's pretty great, right, Yeah, I love I love to hear so much. Um Also, she saves a boy, she doesn't have to be well I guess. I mean you can make an argument that like he at the beginning like saves her a little bit and like gets her away from immediate danger, but it feels like an exchange of movie I'm cutting it too much, like but like it feels like a friendship exchange. And then because she saves him by going on a long journey with her new friends on a train and apologizing and all that and you know, feeding him a ball. Yeah, should we should we talk about capitalism? Let's do it feel like it was going to come up hit it? Yeah? So I again, I don't know. I learned a lot about the end of the twentieth century economy in Japan via learning about this movie. I'm sure we all did you you probably do more than we did already. Um, this movie is really interest I mean the way that it gets a really solid criticism of capitalism that it can work for anyone, but also works very specifically for Japan at the time this movie came out and works again like both ways is so incredible to me. Where it's like, I guess speaking to it in the broad sense, the bath house is this capitalist entity. You know, you have your your character at your at the top your you Boba's of the world. Um, she's dressed in a more i think traditionally like Western way. She doesn't interact with the working class like her whole I mean, and it's like to the point where it's like she's known for taking your name, stripping you of your identity, overworking you, and being very, very unfeeling toward anyone who isn't her own plight. She's only responsive to people once she finds out that they have money, and even then, I mean, I think I think it's a just another like shade of gray that comes up in this movie. Is like she's very like Mr Crabs motivated I would say, by by money. When she finds out that No Face has a ton of money. At first she's thrilled until No Face becomes too unruly and two other and then she's like, Okay, you're actually a monster and you're you're bad. You have to get the funk out. And she did essentially one of the different version of the same thing to the Stink Monster when he came in, where it's like, Okay, I'll take your money, but I'm not going to respect you or consider your plight, and just like and and then you know, putting hiro in in in kind of contrast to that, where to Hero, like she doesn't want to financially profit from being trapped here. She just wants her family and she wants her basic needs met and she wants her friends to be okay, you know, but she's like put into child lay, I mean, and then on the other end, you there's just so many different, like different ways and then with Lynn you have another perspective of like someone who clearly resents the capitalist system but feels stuck there and feels unable to get out, and she's very much a cog in a wheel. And then this I'm not quite as sure of. UM, So if anyone knows more, please jump in. But I based on the research I was doing and like reading interviews that were happening at the time of the release of this movie, UM, I thought it was like I learned at least a little from what she heroes parents are supposed to resent represent in terms of like the specific moment they appear in where um. And again I didn't know this. I mean it was like pretty true in the U s as well, But like that in the eighties, you know, there's a huge capitalist fucking boom across extremely industrialized nations. And it sounds like a lot of what Zaki was trying to say with the parent characters in you know, them disrespecting the spiritual grounds that they arrived on, consuming, consuming, consuming, without any care for whose work they were consuming, who was making it, whether we're gonna pay or not. They were just sort of like, who cares, it's here, let's go let's go nuts, and that as a criticism of that generation of middle class, upper middle class and above in Japan, I that is just I mean, I definitely didn't know that when I was ten. Now, another thing I thought was cool about to Hero's characters specifically was again, and it's her who figures out that the stink spirit is not actually a stink spirit. It's you know, there's something else going on. There was like something wedged in that spirit's body, and it turns out to be a bunch of liketion base sickly right, so we also have some like cool environmental themes happening. But um, she figures it out to Hero saves the day with that river spirit, and the river spirit leaves behind all of this gold, and you Baba is like, oh my gosh, Chihiro, actually you're awesome now, thank you so much. And it's not until that happens that you Baba respects Chihiro in any way. And for maybe a different person they'd be like, oh, well, if I can make my boss more money, then I'll get more respect, So then I should make it a point to try to make my boss more money. Uh. But instead she heroes like every time gold is offered to her, She's like, I don't want your fucking gold. I'm trying to help out my dragon boys always like dragon fleeting nearby. So I thought that was cool and uh, leftist icon Chihiro. Yeah, I think what's really interesting, Um, and this is kind of again, like I get really present in a lot of Japanese media for girls, is that like the fact that she doesn't really care about money, it also does feel like a part of her upbringing and her privilege that she's never had to worry about money. Yeah, especially the way that like her father talks about you know how it's okay they're going to eat all this food because he has credit cards in cash, you know, like no problem. Um. But like, and that definitely does sound like something apparent at the time might say, but I do think that, Um it's it's kind of I guess I have mixed feelings about her not caring about money, because, um, it definitely is you know a thing where like when she refuses to take old from from No Face in that one scene, which because she's trying to go help Haku. Um, the one guy was like, Oh, don't worry about her, She's just a human. She doesn't know any better. And it does feel like human is a kind of placeholder for child in that way where it's like children don't know about money, like they don't know any better. Yeah, yeah, it is complicated, which is like, but that's why I'm glad that Lynn is there to like present a sympathetic character that we're rooting for who is stuck in it. And and unfortunately, I feel like we're led to believe that she kind of remains stuck in it. We kind of leave her there. It's not like she got on the train unfortunately, which again is like, I don't know. I mean, that's an interesting bittersweet. I hope Camogi had another ticket. I don't know. I can't believe he told her he had another ticket the whole time. That's so mean. Uh, Anyways, team Lynn over here, because you would, you would. You're led to believe I mean that you know, Lynn probably did not grow up with very much if that's a job that she is unable to leave, So you're totally righty, I mean, where it you know hiro does? I mean she benefits from the privilege of being a child and not having but also she she benefits from being a child who like worrying about money has we're sort of it to believe is not a big issue for her because her parents are driving out capitalists who turn into yeah Orwellian uh, you know, Orwellian figures. So so there's yeah, there's definitely I appreciate that there's at least foils to that. And then especially and then that leads right into the fact that like we're joking about it, but the fact that you know, Jahiro is constantly like, I don't want your money. There's a dragon bleeding in the other room. The dragon bleeding in the other room is Haku, who ends up being this, you know, big metaphor for the environment because and again, just like another one offline that revisiting it now you're like, oh my god, like where you know they're they're literally falling out of the sky having a very calm conversation, which I love um. And and she's like, she's like you're the river and he's like, I am the river. Damn it's true. That's exactly what he says. And but then but then she's like, I know that what that river is, it doesn't They filled it in and its apartments now and he's like, oh, that must be why I'm not a river anymore, and like just that you know now you're like, oh, you know exactly what Miyazaki is trying to do. And then Haku is also utilized as a character as I think, I mean, as as I guess I'm kind of yet another in into capitalism commentary that's different from Lenz because he is this environmental symbol who ends up in the pocket of capitalism, which um like he is. You Baba's like, uh uh you know he's her what, her assistant, her apprentice, and it sounds like he's again I'm like, I don't know that I feel bad when someone steals from you bomba. People seems like redistribute except for the baby and uh, you know, best of luck to the baby. Shout out to the baby. The baby was supposed to represent, but it was really big. I actually do think there's something I have. I do have thoughts about um both the baby um because so like I mean, you Baba is for anyone who is listening for some reason and hasn't watched the movie. You Baba is very differently designed from all the other characters. She does have like western South dress, you as a giant head, and that's part of why she has a giant baby. But she's also like an older woman and that of her giant head. Yeah, I don't know where um um. But in any case, yeah, like we we don't really know much about like why she would be an older woman with this baby, but this baby is huge but also mentally very much a baby. And then we later learned that the baby can in fact speak perfectly fine and speaks in full sentences. Um. And it's like it's like very interesting because it's like this is a baby that has been uh for as long as we know, like the for its whole life, has been trapped in this one room and you know, he's like afraid of going outside. Um, which is like kind of almost like the polar opposite to Jigito situation to me, where like she's, yeah, she's exploring a whole new world. She's facing all these challenges herself, and even if she is afraid, she doesn't let that stop her from moving forward. So um, I think it's really interesting. And then and I wanted to say um because we haven't talked about it yet, but I think the names of the characters are very important and um in particular, Like, so the big word that's used a lot in this story is spirits, which would be coming in Japanese, but when it comes to the mythology stuff is not really one to one and coming can both spirits and then full on gods. So like and in particular, Kohaku's name, his real name is actually different in Japanese. So his his name in Japanese is Niki Hayami Khaki and it's meant to invoke like the name of a god or so the idea is like he was a full on god and then like cannot return home because of you know, environmentalism. So she's got a dragon boyfriend slash river boyfriend slash god boyfriend, yes, magical girl troups, yes, yes, very much. So my boyfriend is god yea, yeah exactly. So it's uh, it's pretty interesting. Um yeah, it's like it's not really like clear, but like you could definitely make that like distinction that like he is he was a god before you know all this, And again he's a god that looks twelve years old apparently, So yeah that's fast. I had no idea. Yeah, um, but yeah, the names are so interesting to me in general for the movie, if it's okay to talk about it, please yes. So, Like, even the name Tchihito itself, it's like this name was at the time one of the most popular like names, Like it's basically like the most not the most average name for a ten year old, but pretty average for ten year old at this time. UM actually went through the data of like name rankings UM in Japanese and found that like her name peaked at the number four spots. It's not really as big now. I think for the most part, people who name their kids to heto these days are specifically naming it after this character. Yeah. Um, but her name basically means like a thousand questions, so like she's like like asking a thousand things. So the cheat in her name once you take away the second part, it does become send, So send means one thousand in Japanese, so that's like very deliberate. And you know, the Japanese title of this movie is Santotio Kai Kai so San and two Heroes Spiriting Away. Yeah, and the other thing I think that's really interesting about the way the movie looks um like the kind of spirit restaurant area that they go to before the bathhouse. Um, I believe it is very inspired by a specific place in I want to say, I can't remember it's Taiwan or China specifically, but there is like an actual place and the food that the parents eat is those are real things you can eat, um, which is pretty cool. But um, I do think it's interesting that they went outside of Japan for those uh for this images, and like all the signs and stuff are super weird. Um. I think my favorite one is uh, I was looking at some like there's a shot where you know she's first running through and you start to see spirits and there's like lanterns that say come here but backwards. Um, so it's like super creepy. Yeah. Yeah. And then the bath house itself. I think the first thing is the name of the bath house is written backwards and um, you can be um the you and like you baba. For example, it means hot water, but for the bath house name, they don't use you as in hot water. They use you as an oil, which is really interesting. So you see that the character for oil everywhere. Um, you Baba's name basically just means like hot water lady or how hot her grandmother? I don't know, it's like kind of is not a really direct translation. And then her twin sister, Zenniba Zennise comes from like a public bath, which is interesting, so it's like two different Yeah, OK, because she's a twin of the people. Yeah yeah, yeah for sure. Um yeah. And then like names like like Kamaji just means pretty literally boiler old man, like it's very yeah, but yeah, those are like I guess for me, like this, like the major names, there is a shot where you can see all the names, um where like they're kind of turning their their time cards. I guess they'll have their names on them, and like you can see they're all like super short names that were clearly like taken from a longer name. I think that's really cool, um to say, like you Bobba stole their original name and replaced it with something like simpler. Yeah basically yeah, so it's it's pretty cool. It's pretty interesting. So you can assume the same thing happened to lenn as well. Um right right, her name used to be Caitlin want I I do wish we knew a little more about line, but it's like we what we do learn, It's like enough for the story to to work and work and work. But it's just like, oh, I want to know. We got to find out what how cou'se deal was, What is Linn's deal. I didn't didn't know that this is going to radicalize me in favor of working class icon Lynn. But she's you know, she's got the union going in there now I know it. I know it. Or maybe she escaped in that little like circular pedal boat thing. I have to say. Um. I wanted to talk about the character design, specifically of you Baba and Zaniba, since they are identical where they are the only two old women in the story, and the character design and I guess this is subjective, but it's not the most flattering character wo hot take. I mean, maybe some people look at you Baba and I was like, wow, what a sexy bitch, but and they're right to do so. Well maybe maybe where is Zoniba you Baba is, but right like that, I think that any older I mean, there's the only older women in the story, and they're pretty aggressively othered and how they appear and how they look. And I was worried that like this movie was leaning into villainizing the only old female character we get to know, especially because we only Zeneba doesn't show up until maybe like halfway through the movie, or maybe even later than that longer. Yeah, so for a long time, it's just this one older female character, and she's the villain, and she's designed to be pretty grotesque and scary and all this stuff. So I was concerned about the handling of that. And then you meet Zeneba, who is similarly scary and aggressive at first, but then she's one of those characters who seems one way at first, and then when we see her again, like when to Hero pay her a visit to give back the Golden Steel, suddenly she's this sweet granny, literally granny making scrunch ees on a loom. You're like, oh, yes, granny. And then I love how she kind of takes in no face too nice. I was. I I didn't quite know where to fall there, because I did for the vast majority of the movie. Yeah, the only older woman is mothered pretty aggressively in a way that like, if you read it from a moralistic standpoint, you're like, well, yeah, she's the you know, she is the capitalist overlord of the story, but also she's the only older woman in the story, and that seems maybe a little unfair. And the other thing that I did pick up on there, that is something we've talked about with animated movies before. It's always like a little ping annoyance for me because I work in animation and I'm always like, can we not do this? And it always happens. Um is, we have a lot of different like I don't know, like the spirits come in all different forms, they're all different animals, they're all different, you know, they're they're drawn and characterize all very differently, but there's really only any sort of like variety in male coded characters. All the women basically look like some version of a youngish woman who is a human. And that always bugs me. And that's all like, no matter how progressive you find an animation, it's always like, well, we don't wanna we don't want to like have a fun mix of body types and species in a movie where literally anything cannon does happen. So that was like a little thing that I always kind of get frustrated by, the most egregious example that I think we've talked about, Caitlin. It's like I always think of it as like ghostbuster syndrome where all the you know, male coded ghosts are like, well, I'm a pile of shit, and then like the woman is like, I'm a human woman that's really horny, and you're like a super sexy, horny ghost lady. And obviously this is not you know, a sin of that caliber, but I did, I did. I was like, man, most of the women we meet, with the exception of the other older woman villain, they all kind of look like generally attractive, youngish human women. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean we haven't really talked about like it's kind of hard to talk about diversity in this movie, which is EMBOSSI about a bunch of spirits, so not like a lot of human characters or anything. But you know, like the only time, like the only character who is has any sort of other body shape is you know, you bab A Zuniba, who again are drawn identically. And then so there's like the really silly thing was like, how can you not tell me, apart from your own mother, to pull the baby? And it's like, because you guys are drawn sati the same um And she's also the only like Zaniba who is supposed to be the nice old lady is the only character that like actually says something fat phobic to Bow like he she comments on him being really fat, like you know, a chubby baby. And I mean he's he's a giant baby, but he's still very baby shaped. I don't know, right, Yeah, he's not like a grotesque or anything like, it's not it's not he's not like drawn an exaggerated way like to look like a very particularly scary baby. He's just like a very big, fat baby. But like most babies are fat, right, And like, do you guys know what movie we're watching? Like yeah, exactly, Um, but yeah, like it's you know, there isn't really a lot of like I would it would be really cool to have more diversity of like especially with the female spirits, like how they look. It's like basically there are two types of female spirits. There's the ones with like proportioned heads that are similar to humans like Lynn, and then there's the ones that have like very large heads. And that's it. Like that's a that's a variety and female characters in this movie. Yeah, but the O there's no other particular like and again, we only have like basically one human family that we're looking at. So there isn't a lot of guests room for diversity, but it would have been nice if there was a little bit more. Yeah, yeah, I mean, speaking to Jahiro's parents, what we do know of them, I do at least appreciate that it's like they're both damseled by the story, Like it's not one you do get that thing that I think we bumb up in movies a lot, where it's like the dad is more gregarious and likable and like seems to be less of the disciplinary. And then Jahiro's mom. Um, It wasn't a huge issue for me because they're barely in the movie, but I don't know. Yeah, yeah, he's I guess he's he's kind of like the fun dad. But also her mom goes right along. She's it's if anyone's like the come on, don't you guys stop it, it's Jahiro. Shahiro is the one that's like, we're capitalism and too close to the sun. Yeah, because her mom's like, yeah, I'll fucking I'll eat all this food, I'll go down this tunnel. I don't give a ship. Yeah, you know, their names don't come up in the actual text, but they do have names. And I think it's really funny because her father's name is Akio, which the kanji for which is a bright husband and um and then her mother's name is um Uko, which is like the kanji is basically like like what's it called, like a calm child, and the child part being like that's a that's a factor of you know, Japanese girl's names more especially at the time and older generations. In recent years has like kind of fallen out of favor. But child was a very common character to use in girls names compared to adults being used and boys names or whatever. But um, yeah, but like the idea, like she's like that their names really match their personalities and their generation. But yeah, it's like they're they're very much like chosen like kind of stock characters. That makes sense. That yeah, that does That's interesting. Um. Does anyone have any final thoughts about the movie? My last thing was just, um, no face. Uh. We've talked about no Face a bunch where at different times they appear as this capitalism metaphor and then other times I liked the I mean, Shahiro has this I guess like childlike in a good way, but also just like this kind of superhuman ability of like forgiveness and a willingness for like almost I think you can make an argument for like Jahiro believes in restorative justice, um with at least with No with with No Face, and also with the Stink Monster, where she's you know, the central character who does not judge people based on how they look or um. I think like through the story learns to you know, at least challenge her first impressions of people or what she's told to think about the people in spirits and creatures that she meets. And I was touched by her relationship with No Face, which in my memory I think it's just because like that iconic image of them together, I remember the movie as them being together way more than they actually are. Not true, They're actually not together very much. Um, but just that you know, No No Phase does some shit, like No Face is really committing some crimes in there and eating some poor people, which which I also would not have been upset if Hiro was like No Face it's been real, um, but you need to go to therapy and work on yourself, not my I'm not going to take on this emotional labor at this time. No Face which also would have been totally fair and I would have been completely happy with that. But I just thought it was an interesting creative choice, which maybe, again, like Puts, we've mentioned this like, uh, you know, Chihiro is taking on a lot of people shit uh in this story in a way that you know, maybe it certainly isn't fair to her, um, but she does it willingly. It seems like an out of her own nature. And I appreciated how, you know, once it felt like No Face demonstrated a desire to not behave the way that they were behaving, and they you know, freed the people that they ate from themselves, and then Chahiro was like, Okay, let me get you out of this horrible like out of this like toxic environment and take you to Granny and see how you do. I just thought that was an interesting I guess, I don't know what like more oralistic. They could go either way, but um, I thought it was an interesting choice. Yeah, I feel similarly conflicted. Yeah, she does blame the bath house specifically for causing No Face to be this way, which is interesting and also probably another iconic shot of this movie is like, well, because like you know, he is violently vomiting all over the bath house um and chasing what did you do to me? And luck in in doing so. There's a part where you Babba tries to fight him off and gets also covered in um no face vomit, and that is that's nice. I like that. I like that part. I was a big fan of that as well. He loved it. Yeah, any anything else that folks want to cover, I think that's it for me. Yeah? Same Here does Spirited Away pass? The back to test yes yeah to Hero and you Baba to Hero and in to hero in Zeneba. My favorite pass was can't you even manage a yes ma'am? Or thank you? Yes ma'am? What a dope hurry up like pass that passes? Like in the first scene, because like the first the whole first scene is you know, Chito's mother talking to Chito as they're driving. Yeah, true, yeah, so like right away wow. Uh Now on to the main event. The nipple scale nipple scale zero to five nipples. Based on looking at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I will give Spirited Away. I'm like somewhere around a four or four and a half. I think there are some issues with some of the character designs with the female characters or female coded characters specifically, But other than that, I can't really come plain about much else because I and you know me, I love to complain, so we've made a career of it truly. So yeah, I mean, just between the protagonist of this movie being a relatable and active female character who is someone that can be admired by the target demo of specifically ten year old girls according to Miyazaki, um, but also people of all age ranges, people of all genders. It's just such a cool character, such an interesting story just watching like the choices she makes and the friendships she develops, and um, I don't know, it's just like it's all really it just seems like effortletlessly feminist. Again, not to hand it to an autour man, but it's just like, I don't know, it's it's great. Um, I'll give it four and a half nipples. One will go to to Hero, one goes to Lynn, one goes to Zeneba. I'll give one to No Face, especially no Face pre and post bath house. No Faces behavior in the bath house again seduced by capitalism, but No Face overcomes that and um gets a job as Zeneba's knitting slash weaving apprentice, so that's fun. Uh, and then my half nipple will go to non binary icon the footballs I'll go forward a half as well. I really love this movie. I think that it's doing so much that movies in general are not doing effectively much less movies that are accessible to everyone. I I of Jehudo. I love the environmental message, the capitalism message for the most part works for me. There's little moments where you're like, but for the most part, I think it's really well done and clearly just based on what I now know of Miyazaki's politics and track record, all come from a very good place. Yeah, I love you know, kind of his cinematic mission and tendency to center female characters and the fact that, like you were saying earlier, and I mean like there, they wouldn't have made a difference. There could have been a kid of any gender in this character and it would have been just as impactful and wonderful. Some of the animation choices. I mean, it's a gorgeously animated movie. Uh, that's not the issue. It's just yeah, the the a few a few tropes with how women are animated in large animation projects, were still present here in a way that I was hoping it wouldn't be. But it's a little thing in a movie, this doing so much right and holds up so well. I would show this to a kids that wouldn't be awake crying their eyes out over some of the more horrific images in it anytime. Um So I'll go four and a half nipples. I'm going to give two to Hiro, I'm going to give to to the baby, and I'm gonna give the last half Oh wait, sorry, taking him from the baby, giving them to Lynn. Baby gets half a nipple done perfect. Um yeah, I think I kind of almost want to met you guys, but I think I'm gonna go with four nipples on this one. Um So, you know, the reasons that you mentioned are really good. One thing we didn't talk about that I forgot we probably should have mentioned is like in terms of every episode, where like oops, there was a whole huge thing we forgot to say in terms of like the production, Um, I couldn't find any women in the major roles of this movie. Um so that's yeah, that that takes away a half nipple for me, and then the other half is yet the representation and stuff. I think overall, it's just a really great movie. Again, you know, it was the top movie in Japan for almost twenty years for good reason. Like, you know, you can still show this today. There's a you know, the stage show going on in Tokyo, like right now, this show, this story is still very accessible. Uh now, So it's just really like it's yeah, just a great story. And the fact that it's able to translate so easily to everyone around the world is uh, yeah, it's great. And it's also the reason why we got more ghibli localizations. Uh moving forward. So as far as who gets the nipples goodness, I should have everything, yes, um, I think definitely one to you know, and one to Lynn. You know. I'll give one to Sniva just because, like you know, she her the problems to their character and both see, just because of how she's drawn and that's you know, not her fault. Um, And I'll give one to the little Bird, not not the big bird, but the little bird. It's an icon as well. Yes, I love that. Thank you so much. Yes, thank you for having me. It's been an honor and a privilege. Oh my goodness, come back any time. Yes, I would love to. Where can people follow you on social media? Tell us about your podcast, tell us about anything you'd like to tell us about. Yeah, so I guess you know the first thing. If you like what I had to say today, Um, you can find me on Twitter and Instagram at I You she Knows. So that's a y U S A g kN o w S. And if you're a fan of the magical girl genre, I talk about it every week with fans and sometimes creators on Sparkle side chats with magical Girl Are You? And you can find those on Twitter and Instagram at Magical Girl Are You? Um, let's see. Also, I made my voice acting debut this earlier this year, and that's on the s I've thank you. I'm on the sci fi Western anthology podcast Breathing Space Fading Frontier. Um, I'm in one episode of season two, but it was a lot of fun and if you are interested in that genre, you should just listen to the whole podcast. But yeah, it's pretty awesome and thank you. And then, um, finally, my most recent thing that I like, My most recent translation project was this anthology of Sapphic comics featuring butch and butch relationships that are created by queer and trans Japanese artists. It's called Boyish Boyish and spelled like Boyish squared. But yeah, you can find that if you search for Boyish to book on the socials. Should be able to find that everywhere. And you know they're working on like they want to be able to make another like another edition, like a part two of that that anthology. So you know, if the more people you can buy digital copy or physical copy, I think so, you know, it's a it's a really great, beautiful bunch of stories. Um. Yeah, it was so fun to work on. It's like a dream project. So that's awesome. Yeah, hell yeah, I will will link that in the description as well. We'll be linking everything. UM. Thank you so much for joining us acad and and um for kicking off the Miyazaki unit Miyazaki months. I keep hesitating the same month because I fear that we yeah, we'll not get it all done at once, but we will get it all done eventually. Yes. And you can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at bectel Cast. You can subscribe to our Matreon that's at patreon dot com. Slash Petel Cast. It gets you Tube bonus episodes every month, plus access to the entire back catalog of bonus episodes, and you can always get merged over at t public dot com slash the Bectel Cast. With that, we we can't look back. It's hard to say did the podcast happen? We'll never know. Wait a minute, Wait a minute. I have this shiny hair tie. I'm wearing a jersey that's a Shaquille O'Neal. What does it mean? It all happens, It happens. Okay, bye bye bye