Episode 4: James Rodriguez, Cote D'Ivoire, and The Self-Destructive Intensity of Fandom

00:00:06
Speaker 1: Hey, welcome back to the away and I'm John Green and I'm Danielle Alarcon. How you doing, John, I'm.

00:00:11
Speaker 2: Doing all right. I was really let down over the weekend by my beloved Liverpool Football Club, and I think you were let down by my beloved Liverpool Football Club as well.

00:00:20
Speaker 1: I was. I fully expected something to happen, something good.

00:00:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Daniel's a big Arsenal fan. Arsenal are currently winning the Premier League, but in second place is Manchester City and Daniel and I were both hoping that Liverpool would be able to beat Manchester City. Game had a terrible first half. The first half was like watching third tier English soccer, which I do every weekend, so I can say this with authority. And then in the second half it really came to life. Dominic Sobisly had a brilliant free kick for Liverpool scored a wonder of a goal, the kind of goal that makes you think of the William Faulkner line that the purpose of art is to create out of the materials of the human spirit something which did not exist before, and that Soba Sly goal really created out of the materials of the human spirit, something that had not existed before. It was gorgeous, but then Manchester City tied the game, then they took the lead, and then in the last second of the game, that very same Dominic Sivaslye received a red card for stopping a goal scoring opportunity as the ball was being kicked eighty yards with the goalkeeper up trying to score. Alison, our Liverpool goalkeeper was trying to score a goal and so he was not blocking his goal and there was a red card, and it was just a overall ridiculous game. We lost to one arsenal and Manchester City are still locked in a tight title race and Liverpool are struggling.

00:01:48
Speaker 1: So there's a couple of things that I noticed about the game. Well, one, I want to say I didn't watch the game because I generally despised watching man City because I've just seen them win too much in the last you know, eight years.

00:02:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like watching robots play football. It's not that.

00:02:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I they they have obviously, I'm a Pep is a wonderful manager, and obviously they have incredible players. But I've just been burned too many times. You know where I like I hear there, you know, they're down a goal, I'll turn on to watch the last ten minutes and then I'll watch them score three, which is basically what happened in the Liverpool game. I understand. So that's one thing. The other thing that I've been really interested in, though, is the discourse around this title race, as if that was like as if they by winning that game they've made six points as opposed to just the normal three, like as if they won this game and now Arsenal is like out of the title race because you know City is back, and you know that may be true. I have a very philosophical approach to to, you know, supporting my club in the sense that I don't let it bother me anymore if we win or lose. And I also can't really engage with the hope yet because it's it's it hurts too much. But I have so much experience as a proof fan of disappointment, so it just doesn't touch me. You know, it doesn't hurt me. So I think we're still in a good position. Obviously you'd rather be nine points ahead, but you know, it is what it is.

00:03:22
Speaker 2: I'm going to push back a little bit on that, Daniel. I think if Arsenal loses the title this year, you will, in fact be devastated. And I think you're trying to protect yourself emotionally by saying that you have a philosophical approach. And I admire that, but I think that is a defense mechanism rather than an actual feeling.

00:03:38
Speaker 1: Okay, have I looked for tickets to London, like Bolada London for like you know, this spring, and like you know, plas a second mortgage on my house in order to do it? Yes, Dom, that's true. However, yes, you know, I think I said this in one of the earlier shows. You know, the worst the news gets, the more like football content I consume. And I will say that like sort of you know, watching this team has been uh has been a joy at times. It's been drudgery at times because we're not necessarily easy on the eye sometimes. But but yeah, I'll be done. I won't. I don't. I'm going to push back on your pushback. I don't think I'll be devastated. I think i'll I will be I'll be disappointed. I do think we have an incredible team that should win something. And by something, I don't mean to care about Cup. I mean like, although good luck in the carabout cup good luck? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I also think that it's setting up. There was this famous season where Madrid and Barcelona face each other four times in the course of two weeks or so, once in the league, twice in the Champions League and and once in the Copa Dera, so it was maybe five times. It was ridiculous, and it was at the height of the Pep versus h Josie Mourinho psycho drama. The year that Pep called Mourinho et Putoamo the fucking Boss, which I just loved that. And it would be amazing and also horrible to have to face Pep and City four times in April, which could easily happen.

00:05:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, could very much be the case. It's going to be exciting. So today we're going to do a deep dive into the Cote Devoir national team. I'm very excited to talk with you about the men's national team for Cote de far Daniel. But first I think you wanted to introduce me a little bit to James Rodriguez, the great question mark Colombian footballer.

00:05:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, how much do you know about hummus a little bit?

00:05:34
Speaker 2: Because he played in England for a hot minute, and now I think he's going to play for Minnesota United, right.

00:05:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So this was on my mind because he just announced that he was moving to MLS to Minnesota United, which is a kind of at a left field move. He'd previously played not even a full season, I don't think at a Mexican club. He sort of burst into the international consciousness of world football. I think in the twenty fourteen World Cup when he was the Golden boot winner and scored some absolute beauties and I loved him. I loved that Colombian side because I was in Colombia at the time. My wife is Colombian and we were here in Boada. We saw a lot of those games with family, with friends. We saw. You know, if you've seen any clip, it's probably the goal he stored against Uruguay where he controls it off his chest, turns, looks and swings a volley from outside the box that like kisses in off the bar against Uruguay and quarterfinals, like wonderful goal. So he was at that time he just seemed like this effortlessly talented player off the bat. On the back of that performance in the World Cup, he moved to Madrid, wore the number ten shirt at Madrid and really seemed like the next Colombian global superstar, you know. And you know, Falcao and James at the time were you know, the kind of the names. And even now in Boda, living in Bolota again, you see Jimis everywhere. You see him on TV commercials, you see him on billboards and murals, you know, kind of splitting time with Luchods, you know. But he's you know, easily one of the most recognizable celebrities in Columbia. However, I think that that effortless talent turned out to have required maybe a little bit more effort to be cultivated. So he didn't exactly flop at Madrid, but he didn't really stand out. He was eventually loan to Bayern Munich. He did okay there and then he kind of began this itinerant journey around world football. You mentioned that he was in the Premier League for a minute, and it really was like a very short minute. It was at Everton and then you know, he just has that if you go back and think about about the drama, you know, the wonderful midfielder that the Clement side had in like ninety four ninety eight, this kind of midfield my stro that doesn't necessarily do anything except create chances for other people, but is basically a passenger when it comes to defense. And that's not where the game is at anymore. And so if you used to be able to carry a player like that, you can't. And I really want him to do well because the one thing and the one sort of team that he always seems to like show up for is the Columbia national team. You know, he had been sort of like shuttled off to the side before this most recent campaign to qualify, and then the new manager sort of brought him back into the fold and really sort of like built the team around him. And to to Thomas's credit, he performed. You know, he performed in the in the Cobamaica when he took the team to the finals against Argentina. And the one questions his talent. And it's just what I've always wondered, is what happens when you're so good at something that it seems to come so easily, but you don't put in the work. And why is it that when he puts on the national team jersey, he's transformed into this player that he should be all the time.

00:09:06
Speaker 2: Well, don't you. I mean not to make this about too much about our high school experience, but I remember when we were in high school, like you were not just the most talented writer I'd ever seen, but like the most talented writer I've still ever seen. You know what I mean? I know that that was probably all yes, like very yes in terms of like raw pure talent. You had a thing that nobody else I've ever encountered had. But that is worth you know that in sixty five cents will buy you a coke at costco Right, Like, when you're good at something, and we were both reasonably good at writing in high school. You were really good. I was reasonably good. When you're good at something, the idea is that because you're good at it, you want to do it more, and you want to you want to work hard, right, Like, you want to work hard because you're good at it and because people are telling you you're good at it, and because you're a teenager. And when people tell you you're good at something, it feels so good because you're bad at almost everything. And I imagine it's not that dissimilar for a really talented football player. It's the same age when you start to, you know, differentiate yourself from your peers in a major way. And we all know people who are really talented who didn't for whatever reason, like want to continue to get better at that thing.

00:10:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we're talking about and setting aside this our own high school experience. I'm talking about somebody who you know, played it round Madrid, wore the number ten jersey at Madrid, you know, like.

00:10:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, but don't you think that you sort of wore the number ten jersey at Madrid, Daniel, Like in the writing world, you write to the New Yorker, you got to take you gotta. I'm not letting you this go. I know you want me to.

00:10:58
Speaker 1: No, really, yeah, really super uncomfortable. I did not sort of join this podcast project to get this kind of praise. I appreciate it. But okay, so let's go back to Hamas and I think we can all think of players and people. I'm gonna tell you, Sory, I knew a kid, the best player on my club team when I was a kid. His name was Andrew, and he he was so good. And the moment that I remember from him was that we were tied against this team it, you know, might have been a Stavior Mountain Brook or one of these other teams from the suburbs of Birmingham, Alabama. And Andrew kept telling the goalie of the other team, He's like, I'm gonna score on you man at like corner kicks, you know. He's like, I'm gonna score on you. Then I'm gonna kiss you. And I said it, and I was just like, what the hell this kind of otherworldly confidence? Yeah, you know, it's like what are you doing? You know, like like it would like and you don't get like that's not a normal thing. People don't have that. I do think that you had. Like if you make it as far as Hamas did or as far as any these guys, you have to have this insane confidence that is just, you know, borders on pathology, you know. Anyway, Eventually Andrew did score and uh and and he ran back to pull the ball out of that and the keepers just kind of stunned and just kind of standing there like hands on hips. And Andrew kissed him on the cheek, got a yellow card. Wow, and didn't care at all, you know, he just thought it was so funny. Yeah, and I just was like, you know, the the that that kind of confidence. He didn't work hard because it was so easy for him, so much better than us, he didn't need to.

00:12:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I I think sometimes though that like we we underestimate talent in general. I think like we don't, we don't talk enough about how much talent matters. I'm going to now tell you the story of my middle school my my most glorious moment as a middle school soccer player. So there are two things you need to be a good footballer, as far as I can tell. One is an understanding of space and awareness of you know, how to open up space, how to occupy space, how to get into space, how to get the ball into space, all that stuff. You have to have spatial intelligence, spatial awareness. And then you also have to have like a basic level of coordination. Balance that really matters in football, you know, like foot eye coordination is incredibly important. So is strength, the ability to you know, have the ball go where you want it to go when you kick it. I had neither of these things, of course, and I think it's important to note that there is an element of talent in this stuff, and sometimes you don't have it, and I didn't have it. What I had was an incredible, incredible work ethic when it came to soccer, and only when it came to soccer. Like I was not a good student, but I had I was really deeply dedicated to getting good. And I'd been told my whole life that it was all about hard work, that was all about heart, how hard you work, how much you give to the game. I'd gone to all the soccer clinics when I was a kid where they told me, like, you know, what makes what makes the difference between good and great is all effort and confidence and hard work. And so I believe that if I just worked hard enough and just had enough confidence and just did all this right, then I would eventually be a good soccer player. This was, of course, not true, because I didn't have either of the things that you need. Anyway, In eighth grade, my coach comes up to me the day before a game. He says, you're going to start tomorrow. It's the first time I've ever started. I'm incredibly excited. This is the pinnacle of my career, and it's for me, the beginning of the beginning of the beginning, right, It's the beginning of the moment where I turn a corner. I've become a starter. I'm going down this path now to become a truly great player through my effort and hard work. And then at halftime of that game, I'm substituted out and the coach says to the rest of the team, you know why I started green? At least, he tries, No, I was nothing but a motivational tool.

00:15:09
Speaker 1: Daniel, Wow, that you were like the Hallmark card, sort of like with a with a you know, jersey on.

00:15:16
Speaker 2: It was like the movie Rudy.

00:15:17
Speaker 1: Ah, Yes, you were rudy to try.

00:15:20
Speaker 2: Hard's I was rudy.

00:15:23
Speaker 1: I was rudy.

00:15:24
Speaker 2: I thought that I was going to become somebody, and I was rudy all along.

00:15:28
Speaker 1: You know, isn't that like some kind of emotional coaching malpractice that shouldn't be inflicted upon a child. I mean you see that now.

00:15:37
Speaker 2: Well, I think from the coaches perspective, he was trying to win the game, and he wanted to make the point to the other players that if they tried as hard as I did, we would be good.

00:15:53
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I made me think of this, and again we keep mixing the literary and the sporting. But many years ago I met the Chilean writer Alberto Fuget and he was giving a talk. Someone asked him that kind of standard question who his idols were, and he said, I want to differentiate between idols and heroes. I'm paraphrasing here, right, but he said, you know, my idol is Garcia Marquez. My hero is is Bnyosa. And the difference is you can aspire to be your heroes, but you can't be your idols. And he said, yeah, Garcia Marcus is a genius, and Bugas Jossa just works really hard. M And he was basically like the whole point was like he's like, I'm not a genius. He's like, I'm not a genius. I'm just gonna work really hard. And he's you know, he's made a nice career for himself working hard, and you can he's obviously very talented in addition to working hard.

00:16:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you're not going to be like I could work I think I do work hard as a writer, and I could work maybe a little bit harder, but it's not like I'm a little bit of work away from being Tony Morrison, right, right, you're not. I mean, that's just not happen for me. I remember once I was early in our marriage, I was reading a book by Michael Shaven and I said to Sarah, I just don't think I can write like this. And she didn't even pause. She said, of course you can't.

00:17:19
Speaker 1: But isn't it It's it's sort of it's a it's a relief to realize that, yeah, only can only write like yourself.

00:17:27
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and I can't write like that, but I can write like some I can write like me. And you know, like you said, you get to have your heroes and your idols, and part of the pleasure of having idols is that you know you can't become them right like you. Part of the part of the pleasure of being able to look up the mountain and see Tony Morrison up there is being able to read her. Not necessarily, you don't need to be able to write like her. You just need to be able to read her well.

00:17:56
Speaker 1: And appreciate her. Yeah. In that spirit, I want to say that I hope I'm does really well because I you know, living in Bota, I want Columbut to do really well. And I do think the team depends on him, on which WE'LLDZ perhaps even to a greater extent. But if Hamas is hitting, then the coding team will do well. And I really hope it goes well from at MLS in Minnesota in MLS this season. Why don't we take a quick break, John, and we'll come back and hear about Coldivouc.

00:18:25
Speaker 2: Perfect. All right, Daniel, we're back at the away end and I am going to talk to you about the elephants, the Cote Devoir national men's team. Now I know what you're wondering. First off, are there elephants in Code of War? There are, but only about three hundred of them, fewer and fewer every year. So it's a real source of concern for both football and biodiversity. So listen. You said in a previous episode that according to the actuarial tables, we have eight World Cups left in our lifetime, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, yes, Well, beginning in nineteen thirty, Cote Devoir failed to qualify for the first eight World Cups, not because of footballing reasons, but because the nation of Quote Devoir did not yet exist. It gained its independence in nineteen sixty when my dad was ten, which is a nice reminder that in many cases the nations that are competing in the World Cup are new. They are still establishing themselves in the world order. I remember once I was talking to my friend Daniel Bainbridge and she said, you know, your national anthem in the United States was written by Francis Scott Key, like two hundred and fifty years ago, and he's somebody that you read about in your textbooks. Well, in my father's home nation, the national anthem was written by my dad's friend. And nice because lots of nations are new, especially post colonial nations, and that's the case for Kotevoir. It's easy to forget how many formally colonized nations there are, but yeah, this is this is one of them. So Kote of War has won the African Cup of Nations three times since nineteen sixty, including one during their golden age with Solomon Kalou and Yaya Torre and Gervino That was just after Dider Drogba's retirement. Daniel, I'm sure you'll know Didier Drogba from all of his exploits for Chelsea.

00:20:33
Speaker 1: M hm, Yes, all the times he scored an Arsenal. I'm really intrigued that he's a Gervino in there, because my memory of Davigno is not of a golden, golden generation Blair when he was on Arsenal. But anyway, gone he was fast.

00:20:49
Speaker 2: He was he was very very fast.

00:20:51
Speaker 1: His hairline was extraordinary, just absolutely extordinary. So he wore sort of this kind of headband that kept his you know, his bangs, I guess, plastered down on his forehead. And one time I remember, you know, a stiff wind blue or he headed the wrong you know, off his forehead and that thing came off and then his bangs you know started, you know, back behind his ears. Basically, it was a comb forward of epic proportions. It was. It was like it was like a Bill Murray thing from from that Bowling movie. It was wild. Anyway, Sorry that that's a parenthetical that no one cares about, but there it is.

00:21:30
Speaker 2: No, I don't think that no one cares about that. I think that's the kind of hard hitting journalism that people come to the away and for. And I think it's super important that you shared that, and I appreciate it.

00:21:39
Speaker 1: Great.

00:21:39
Speaker 2: Great, So we've got Gervigno with his comb forward, We've got Yaya Tore, his brother Clolo Torre. We've got Salomon Kohlou and then of course we have Didier Drongo, probably the greatest footballer ever produced by Coote Devoir, arguably the greatest Sub Saharan African footballer of all time. He of course can't be the greatest African foot baller of all time because that goes to Liverpool's owned Mohammed Sala. This year Afcan went okay for Kotavoir. They lost three two to Egypt, but didn't look too bad in losing. They have a really strong crop of current players, Like if you look at their lineup it's similar to the US men's national team in terms of how many players play in the top leagues of Europe, how many players are playing in the Champions League. They've got Nottingham Forest, Willie Bowley, They've got Romas Indica in the back, they've got Manchester United suddenly inform Ama Diallo up front, and they look pretty good. However, they have never progressed past the group stage in the World Cup. Really qualifying for Africa. Yeah, isn't that crazy.

00:22:47
Speaker 1: Saying they never got they? Well they have they have only they get out of the groups and then losing the sick round of sixteen, or they just never get out of the group. They never get out of the group. They've never gotten that's shocking. Yeah wow.

00:23:02
Speaker 2: I was also shocked to learn that so part of this is because qualifying from Africa is notoriously difficult, and they don't always qualify. However, in two thousand and six and twenty ten they both times drew into the so called Group of Death, the most statistically difficult group. In twenty ten they drew against Portugal and then played Brazil yikes, and lost to Brazil and as a result didn't qualify.

00:23:30
Speaker 1: Oh that's a bummer for the knockout.

00:23:32
Speaker 2: Rounds this year. Their group is really interesting. It's a group that you and I have both focused on because it includes Germany, a traditional powerhouse in global football. I would argue this is again a little bit of a Group of Death, but with a complicating element. Ecuador is also in their group. We both think that Ecuador is going to really surprise people at the World Cup, and then they're also in a group with Kursow. So if it were a traditional World Cup, you would look at this as an absolute Group of death. Cote Devoir is obviously not favored against either Ecuador or Germany. But this isn't a traditional World Cup because more than two teams will potentially get out of each group. And it looks to me like if you win by say two goals, if you win one game by two goals and don't lose your other games by too much, you will potentially qualify as one of the best third place teams. Curisol, I think, is the smallest nation ever to qualify for the World Cup. It's a tiny nation. I think they're happy to be there. I think that they're going to struggle against all three of those teams, and if Kote of War can win that game against Curisow by a few goals, they potentially are going to make it. Even if they don't beat Germany or Ecuador, for sure, they could potentially.

00:24:50
Speaker 1: Make it to the knockout. Yas this might be the year to get out of.

00:24:52
Speaker 2: The groups, it might be I certainly think that's got to be the goal if you're the Cote of War national team this year, it's got to be to for the first time ever advance out of the grip.

00:25:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, you think could be okay? Batter Courros out, draw with Ecuador, don't lose by too much to Germany.

00:25:09
Speaker 2: Or alternately draw with Germany. I I go back and forth on the German national team this year. I think they could be in trouble.

00:25:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, no, I hear you, I hear you on that. The reason I said it that way is because I'm presuming that's the logic from the I've Orient side, because Germany has such cachet and legacy, you know, whereas Ecuador is kind of gonna, like we both think, is going to surprise some people.

00:25:35
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the reason I wanted to talk about Kotovar is not just because of their fascinating football history, which is really interesting, but also because of the role the national football team has played in the nation's story of itself. So, Curteivar had a terrible civil war in the early two thousands, and they were in the midst of that civil war when Coache of War qualified for its first ever World Cup in two thousand and six. They beat Sudan away and qualified for the World Cup. And then in the dressing room after the game, you may remember this, Daniel Didier Drogba got down on his knees along with the rest of his team. They were all on their knees and Didier Drogba said, I'll quote this directly as translated from the French. Today, we beg you on our knees, the one country in Africa with so many riches must not descend into war. Please lay down your weapons and hold elections. Now, this moment has since often been credited as this unifying moment that led to the varying factions getting back to the negotiating table. I think that's a little bit oversimplified from what I read. For one thing, the war didn't really end until two thousand and seven, so maybe a bit too much has been made of that speech. But I think it's really telling that both that moment is seen as this great unifying moment in the history of Cote Deuvoir amid this civil war, but also then in two thousand and seven, to qualify for the African Cup of Nations, they played a game in rebel territory that was peacefully attended both by government soldiers and rebel ones. And that speaks to what football can be, which is a moment when we all say we're going to be able to put some stuff aside in order to enjoy the football together and root for a bigger interest than any of us have, you know, within this conflict. So I do think football can be one of the pillars and props to help us endure and prevail. As Faulkner put it, not talking about football in particular. It's the second time I've put it Faulkner's Nobel Prize speech today, but it is a really good speech, to be fair.

00:27:55
Speaker 1: It reminds me don of Gosh. I guess it was twenty fourteen. I was living here in Bota, and I remember on a Saturday, columb was playing its first game in the World Cup, and on Sunday were the elections, and Saturday was a day of absolute unity. And then the very next day the column Columbians went to the polls and basically there was a candidate for peace and a candidate basically against the peace treat with the rebels, and you know, and it just the contrast that the polarization of Sunday versus the unity of Saturday was striking to me as an outsider, and something I'll never never quite forget. On Saturday everyone was pushing in the same direction. And then the very next day, it was like, you know, let's decide whether we want to keep killing each other for another fifty years or not. It was remarkable who won. Santos won the peace candidate.

00:28:55
Speaker 2: So I've been feeling that during the Olympics. I'm a huge Olympics fan, as you can, because I love nations coming together in peace and harmony. That's my whole jam, that's my dream, is a truly internationalist global social order. And when people say that I'm a globalist, they are correct. So anyway, I love the Olympics. I love how the Olympics can bring us together despite the corruption in you know, the Olympic committees and everything else. And I find myself inevitably like today, as we're recording this, I just saw this morning. I woke up at six in the morning to watch some cross country skiing and I saw an American man won a cross country skiing medal for the first time in a long time. And they, you know, went back to his family in Vermont celebrating. They had a camera trained on his mother, who was you know, had both of her hands, her all of her fingers crossed in both of her hands, and here is this this glorious moment amid a really difficult disunited US story, here is this moment where we can all root for this guy from Vermont who kind of upset the world in cross country skiing.

00:30:19
Speaker 1: I love it.

00:30:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it just it always gets me. It always makes me cry.

00:30:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you are prone to emotional outbursts. No, it's true, which is a great true. You know, you're in touch with your emotional side in a way that a lot of people aren't. I can be a crier too. I cried during Bad Bunnies performance when he brought out all the flags at the end at the Super Bowl. I thought that was that was really lovely and very moving, and I felt, like the kids say, I felt very seen. You know, Peru. He mentioned Peru. He named all the countries in Americas and mentioned Peru, and I was like, Peru doesn't get mentioned ever, like ever, in any context. Yeah, you know, And so for suddenly you're the place that you're from and the place that where your heart is a lot of times. To sort of be included was super powerful. And I'll admit to tearing up at that moment.

00:31:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a beautiful moment. It's something that music and sports gives us. I will say he forgot to say Belize.

00:31:22
Speaker 1: Oh you know, I have to go back and look at that. That's really tough. That's harsh.

00:31:28
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I know he forgot to say believes because I have a friend from Beliez who texted me and said, I can't believe you forgot to say Belize.

00:31:34
Speaker 1: I was impressed. You know, my son is a big my younger son is a big geography nerd. Actually both my kids are big geography nerds. And he was impressed that he basically, you know, got them all, but we didn't notice that he missed Belize. I'm very sorry for the Belizeans. That's tough.

00:31:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but he did a good job in general. I mean that's a high pressure situation to try to play geography p and I thought he did a great job, So shout out bad bunny.

00:32:01
Speaker 1: I think I was being watched by one hundred and fifty million people. I would forget the alphabet. Yeah, I just wouldn't be able to handle it.

00:32:11
Speaker 2: Are you ever at an event and somebody's like, do you ever do like a reading or whatever? And somebody asks you, like, what have you been reading? When somebody asks me that everything I've ever read goes out of my head. It's not just that I can't think about what I'm currently reading. I can't think about any book that I've ever read. I like, literally no books come to mind.

00:32:28
Speaker 1: The cat in the Hat, Yeah no I don't. I just say everything is tuberculousis that's just.

00:32:36
Speaker 2: My thank you, thank you very much. From now on, I'll just say, lall city right now.

00:32:42
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go.

00:32:45
Speaker 2: So so, I think the dream for Coachovoir this this year is to get out of the group, to make it to the knockout stages, and then anything can happen. I think understanding for a US based fan to understand that there are a lot of nations in this year's World Cup that have a lot of Champions League players and a lot of europe top level European players is an important reminder because I think sometimes like part of the reason fans of the US men's national team gets so mad is because they think we should be better than we are, but we aren't that great, like in terms of in terms of the quality of our players, Like we have really really good players, better players than we've ever had, for sure, but you know, a lot of countries have really good world class players who play at the biggest clubs in Europe.

00:33:40
Speaker 1: Absolutely, absolutely, Yeah, I think it's a it's interesting. I think it's historically it's been easier for me too, for the United States in soccer because we're the underdogs, and I, you know, only mean people don't have the kind of natural tendency to root for the underdog, so I always want the underdog to win. And the United States is a powerhouse in everything except world soccer and so and human rights well okay, fair and and like you know, health care, you know, and.

00:34:19
Speaker 2: Access universal health. Yeah, there's a number of things in which I would argue we aren't actually pushing the top of the time.

00:34:25
Speaker 1: You go there, you go, No, that's that's that's absolutely true. And I misspoke. Uh, it was not life expected. I mean, I could please. It was not a fit of jingoism. It was just a sort of acknowledgment of the United States's power economic and military power, I guess, is what I was saying, but not in the other ways. It probably mattered more for the well being of the population anyway. Yeah, I I I'm rooting for Cultivar to get out of the group. I'm sure they will. If I were a betting man, I would put money on it. And I uh, you know, like we said last week with with Uruguay, the their goal is to, you know, according to Bruno, eliminate Argentina. You know, I guess people don't think, don't realize how hard it is. You're like, oh, you just got to win four games or five games, you know, but it's like, no, you got it. Like once you're in the knockout stages, you know the intensity the pressure of that. If you can have one dug performance, you know, it's marvelous. You're giving your entire nation a moment of joy that they'll never forget.

00:35:27
Speaker 2: I remember seeing when Sierra Leone drew an Afcon game in two thousand and twenty four, twenty two. Maybe I remember seeing videos that my friend sent me of just everybody spilling out onto the streets. Yeah for a nil nil draw. Everybody horns, honking, cow bells, ringing, just the overwhelming joy. And if you can win just one knockout game, or even qualify for the knockout rounds like that is You're right, that's such a win. To your point about if one hundred and twenty five million people are watching we forget the alphabet, Like more than one hundred twenty five million people are watching. Your entire nation is watching that. And to not forget the alphabet is an act of tremendous heroism.

00:36:17
Speaker 1: To remember how to kick a ball like much less kick it in any direction, is a huge concionment. We should take a quick break. Done, I'm gonna come back with a story. We're back on their way and John and I have a story that's it's a very short story, but it's an image and it's really powerful. I think about that a lot. You're the father of adolescent teenage boy. My oldest son is aging out of that demographic soon ish, and my youngest son is going to be thirteen next month. So I think about this a lot because it has a lot to do with sort of these ideas of manhood. And it's a scene. So I'm in Buenos Aide's. This was maybe fifteen years ago, and I had a free day and I'm just walking around to a lovely day. I don't know how I ended up at this neighborhood by his train station, and I was just kind of having a coffee at the train station, just looking at the people and just you know, I love people watching and just kind of just being in the moment in this city. I don't know, I don't know super well, and I'm just sort of like enjoying it. Anyway, there's families about it's lovely and the train station in the cafe, and then there's like this long avenue that goes up a hill away from the train station, and there's a newspaper stand right and it's open on Sunday and people are sort of you know, buying paper, having a smoke, you know, doing sort of normal life things. The train comes and I don't know where the train is from, but out of the train emerge hordes of fans soccer fans, right, They're all wearing red jerseys. I want to say they were friends of being dip indiente, but I'm sure my Argentine friends will will correct me on this. Anyway. Two dozen, three dozen, you know, just a swarm who emerge and just proceed to destroy everything around them. So like it goes from this like kind of idyllic, kind of relaxed urban you know, Sunday mid morning scene to this like immediately this kind of apocalyptic, terrifying moment where everyone is like, you know, like businesses are shuttering, you know, like it's just like oh shit, right, And what I remember is that like these kids just this kind of unalloyed rage going in every direction. Uh. These these two kids like went to a lamppost and just started rocking it, like we're like, we're gonna knock this down, like for no reason. It's just like, you know, they go to the they sort of tore up the newspaper stand, you know, just like you know, crazy. Now, this is the thing about it. It happened to be walking down the street a family, mom, son, daughter. The mom immediately sees what these groups coming. And I didn't lock eyes with her, but I saw her in that moment of realization where she sort of like is aware suddenly of what's about to happen. And her son is wearing a blue jersey Boka Junior's jersey. I remember, its blue and yellow. My sister immediately starts crying. The hordes of red shirted fans are coming towards this young family. The mom rips off her sweater and just embraces her son and wraps it around him. Right. Wow, covers, covers him completely so that you can better see it now. The reaction of the kid is what I want to point out, because the kid, who was this age of you know, somewhere between the age of my son, my youngest son, and your your son, is fighting his mom wants to rip like like kind of like superhero style like rip off. He's fighting, he's fighting, he's fighting, and the mom is like desperate, you know, and she manages with the sister doing nothing. The sister was helpless in this situation because she was panicked, you know, not of any fault of her own. I was panicked for myself, but I was drinking my espresso. Pulls the kid aside and he's he's like, ah, he wants the world to know that he's a book, a fan, and and which surely would have meant a pummeling or worse in front of his sister and his mom. The horde is, you know, full of rage and full of fury. But they're also you know, have the attention span of goldfish. So they just are you know, destroy something and keep moving. And within ninety seconds they've done their worst and they're moving up the street, at which point the mom sort of relaxes. The kid shakes off, you know, his mom, and she's super mad, you know, like as if he's been emasculated, humiliated by his mother's attempt to save his life. Right, I mean, I don't want to. I don't. I don't think I'm exaggerating. Actually, there have been many cases of a fan violence in Latin America, in Argentina, in in you know, in Europe. I mean this is not you know, just there was a Champions League lass, you know, two weeks ago where a fan was killed in Italy, a Newcastle fan, you know. So I don't think I'm exaggerating. So I saw this scene and I've thought about it a lot, because I've thought about that kind of self destructive and tensity that fans have. And you know, when the fandom is such the core of their identity that it leads to this kind of it can lead to the violence of the sort of the kids who emerge from the train. It can also lead to the kind of willful denial of risk or just kind of like you know, diluted risk assessment where the kid wants to just shout at the precise wrong moment, Hey, I'm a book, A fan come kill me, and also the desperate maternal instinct to save her son from himself. It was such a moving moment, and I've thought about where that energy where That adolescent and let's call it, it's an adolescent male energy mostly goes, you know, when that kid who might have been fourteen or fifteen is you know, sixteen, eighteen twenty, You know, where does that go and what bad I worried about that kid a lot in my life, and I worry about him the more I see my kid grow up. I also worry, like, where where does that energy go? And what ill effects might it have? So that's my story. You as a father, you know what do you think?

00:43:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I understand all parts of the story. I have a weird understanding of that urge to even not at the age of sixteen, even at the age of forty eight, that urged to say, like, I am a Wimbledon fan in Milton Keynes or whatever it is. You know, I remember once I was so the third tier English soccer team I sponsor AFC. Wimbledon has a rival, Milton Keynes. But it's a different rivalry from most football rivalries because Milton Keynes stole AFC Wimbledon's history and place in the league and everything else when the team was moved to Milton Keynes from Wimbledon, and so they really there's some real negative energy there. We think they shouldn't dig they hate us, et cetera. One time I was going to a Milton Keynes game and I got off the train with friends and I'm a middle aged man and I saw these kids wearing Milton Keynes shirts and they were, you know, looking at me and sort of threateningly, and I thought to myself, am I going to get in a fight?

00:44:19
Speaker 1: Like? Wow?

00:44:20
Speaker 2: I felt like getting in a fight, and I never feel like getting enough. I haven't felt like getting in a fight since I was thirteen. But it's real, you know, Like it's such a I think adolescent male energy is a great phrase for it, but it doesn't go away when you stop being an adolescent. You just hopefully get better at controlling it. Yeah, So, Daniel, we've been getting some emails at away ndpod at gmail dot com. Thanks to everybody for writing in. I wanted to begin with this quick correction from Ava, who wrote to tell us that there is a very good reason why there is not orange in the Dutch flag. It has something to do with the French question mark. More importantly, in the nineteen thirties, the Dutch NSB part the fascist pro Nazi party, revived the colors and took the orange white blue flag as a political statement, and in response, Queen Wilhelmina signed a decree that red, white and blue are the official and forever colors of the Dutch flag. That's why incorporating orange into the Dutch flag is anything but simple. Cool podcast DFDBA AVA so love that Ava is there pointing out that when we said that maybe there should be orange in the Dutch flag, there is a very good reason why there is not orange in the Dutch flag, and I support that. Yeah, we're pro Suddenly we're very pro red white and yeah, no, it's great Dutch flag.

00:45:34
Speaker 1: It's great, Queen Wilhelmina, well done. Applause.

00:45:37
Speaker 2: We also got an email from Connor, who writes, Dear John and Daniel, I've been really enjoying listening to podcasts and Todaybute. I'm a longtime fan of John from his other work, and I have enjoyed learning about Daniel his work in the Pruvian national team. I am not a particularly knowledgeable football fan, but I'm excited to hear your thoughts about the Republic of Ireland's chances for qualifying for the World Cup. Also, have you seen the highlights from Troy perrotzatrick over Hungary which kept our qualification hopes alive? And what are your thoughts on that? Many thanks, Connor, ps keep up the good work. I especially appreciate hearing your compassionate thoughts on the political landscape as we near the World Cup. So, Connor, I've got good news and bad news. The good news is I did enjoy Troy Parrot's hat trick against Hungary.

00:46:14
Speaker 1: He loved it.

00:46:15
Speaker 2: Miraculous, attempt to incredible, incredible joy. Want to see Ireland qualify for the World Cup so badly, Daniel. What do you think their chances are?

00:46:27
Speaker 1: I think I also always want to echo all that I think a World Cup with Irish fans and the Irish team would be extraordinary, especially in the US with such a large diaspora of Irish Americans. It's gonna be tough. It's gonna be really tough.

00:46:43
Speaker 2: It's gonna be tough.

00:46:44
Speaker 1: Do you know off the top of the group, darn I just want to mention that Troy Perrit didn't just score the hat trick. I get's Hungary. He scored a brace in the prest game against Portugal. Right.

00:46:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, Troy Parrott is an absolute legend of Irish football. Incredible really in credible performance. So they will be taking on the Czech Republic and then either Denmark or North Macedonia. If they beat the Czech Republic, I think that's a tough road.

00:47:11
Speaker 1: I think that's a tough road. Denmark is not an easy out. No.

00:47:15
Speaker 2: I think they might be able to beat the Czech Republic, but I think it's going to be really really hard to beat Denmark or even North Macedonia.

00:47:23
Speaker 1: Do you know where these games are played or they played home and away or no?

00:47:28
Speaker 2: Check the first one is played in the Czech Republic and then the second one is played in Dublin.

00:47:32
Speaker 1: Okay, Wow, that's gonna be tough.

00:47:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's gonna be rough. But I will say this with Troy pair at all things are possible. And the great thing about football is that wild upsets do happen, and go on a good run, win two games and you get to go to the World Cup.

00:47:50
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm so glad we got through that entire segment without referencing their lack of Irish. Really well done, Oh, very well done, Very well done by us. I want to read one more question. This one I think is good for both of us because it's about the space we have it, which is literature and football. Dear mister a Larcon and mister Green, very respectful. The awayn could not come at a better time. As a Canadian, I view of sports growing up typically was focused on the stereotypical hockey, baseball, basketball. I've been lucky to live in Britain for a time, taking an EPL in Scottis Premiership games, which is coincided in excitement at our women's soccer success while denouncing a certain scandal with certain coaching and certain usage of drones at a certain internal stage. Interesting all this say, it feels like an exciting time for soccer football. My question for you, as fans and as writers, do you have any favorite soccer football books generally about the sport or teams or leagues or moments defining the sport? And do you have any books that make the sport more accessible for a new fan? It feels overwhelming without which information there is out there, and I'm unsure where to begin so I can better appreciate the sport today. Arigiana. Thank you Arijiana for that question. I'll go first. That's okay, John. There's a there's a great, great book. It is less about the sport but more about sort of the the intersection of sport of soccer and and politics, which I really love, is called The Soccer War by Richard Kapucchinski, and it tells the story of soccer game in Central America that degenerates into an actual shooting war, and and it's it's a really brilliant piece of reportage. And then I think, obviously Among the Thugs is one of the kind of classics.

00:49:38
Speaker 2: Of Bill Buford's book.

00:49:41
Speaker 1: Do you have anything to coming to bund John? Oh wait, you, as soon as I ask you, you forget all the books you've read, so right, Law City Radio. It is not about soccer. No.

00:49:47
Speaker 2: I I prepared because I saw this question, so I I prepared some notes, thankfully. The first one I would recommend is is called Brilliant Orange. It is a history of the Dutch national football team that kind of is also a history of football in general and why people love football so much, and the question that we're going to explore in this podcast as to whether or not there is or can be said to be a national style of football and the extent to which that national style may mimic other facets of culture in a community. I really love that book. And then the second one is a much more recent book about the World Cup called The Power in the Glory by Jonathan Wilson, who also wrote Inverting the Pyramid, a.

00:50:36
Speaker 1: Classic of man, he's so good.

00:50:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's amazing. And this book, The Power in the Glory, is really about the intersection between international soccer and geopolitics and nation building. It's a really fascinating book, and it just goes World Cup by World Cup and examines each of the World Cup winners and the the dramas at home that that fueled or challenge those wins. It's really great, So I recommend both those.

00:51:09
Speaker 1: All Right, we had a few more emails that we're not going to have time to get to, but I want to thank everyone who wrote in and please keep writing us with your questions, comments, suggestions for topics Away endpod at gmail dot com, and with what remains of my voice, I want to say thank you John, and thank you to our producer Sean, who did not make it on screen this time, weirdly, but we'll remedy that for next week, I'm sure. And of course our producer Kurt and I never called you from listening. John, See you next week, man, see you then,