#343 - Kane Brown’s Manager Martha Earls on How He Was Discovered + Overcoming People Who Refused to Play His Music + How An Artist Gets A Manager and What the Job Entails

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Speaker 1: All right, this is Martha Earls. Uh, just so good at what she does. She's Kane Brown's manager, amongst other things. So she is the owner manager of E f G Management, one or two Entertainment. She works with Kane Brown, Restless Road, and a list of others. And she's just done so much that she has moved to Nashville. I mean, she's now somebody who others look at as an innovator. And I think at the time, at least my perspective is when she started, especially with Kane, people were like, well, what's going on here? And then now they're like, oh, well, we see what's going on there. She's smarter than most folks. So just like to bring in people who were changing how business is done here in Nashville. And we talked about music. We talked about how she went from working as a receptionist all the way to you know what she's doing now with multiple artists including Kane Brown, like Massive Massive Massive've just super lucky to get her on this and maybe you guys like myself, because I did learn learn something here, Mike, any notes from this you remember here? I did learn something from her. She said something interesting about work life balance that I took away from this. Yeah, I think I took it away too, but then I forgot while working too much. Yeah, but I remember her talking about when she maybe it's when she was with people she is focused, something like that. Yeah, be where you are. She says it better than we do because we get here. Is Martha Earls Kine Brown's manager, but she's so much more. I'm really proud to present this one to you, and I hope you like it. Thank you enjoy Episode three forty three. So did you watch the Grammys last night? You know, I watched a little bit of the Grammy's last night. I'm always curious with you know, people like yourself who you know, you have a different perspective than I do. Who has a different perspective? You know, it just depends where you are on kind of the spectrum here, Like when you watch the Grammys, I just wonder, has Haskin never been nominated? Okay, and that's gonna be something else. I'm gonna get to where I feel like Kine is the most underappreciated massive artist have and I mean massive in an apple in the truth. So I will get to that. But you watch the Grammys a bit of it, Yeah, much a bit of it. What do you think when you see the Grammys like on TV? What's What's what comes to your mind? I mean, I've seen the Grammys in person, and I've seen the Grammys on TV, and I try when I look at it on TV, I try to think of it like a fan would think. So I hope they're getting the experience that they want. Um, you know, and you just know everything that goes into it. And you know on these TV shows, their their ratings are unfortunately falling, and so I sometimes watch it thinking are they doing certain things to try to help their ratings. It's an interesting ratings question because I have been asked to host without saying which one is an award show or two here? And when they say, hey, we're going to do it like all the other years, it's like, Man, everything is pointing down because we have more options. We you know, there's more stimuli everywhere, and so if you're doing it the same and I'm going to be a part of it and then it goes down, I'm going to be blamed for it going down as the hope. That's That's what I'm feeling, because it's going to go down. It's going to go down. If it's flat, that's a huge victory. Yes, So my approach has been, let's do some things that are a bit different, and I understand when they go well, if we do it different, it hasn't been tested, has been researched, and it could really bomb out. And in my mind, we're either going to bomb or we're gonna do worse. And I would rather bomb with the chance of crushing, just generally from my career, and I guess that's what I'm getting to here is I would rather take a swing so hard that I may miss seven times in a row. And you know what, I'm okay because that's one with my gut as hard as I could, you have to. And it feels a bit like that's a bit what your methodology is in general. Yes, was did all of that kind of make sense together that I'm tied all together into how I I see you as a visionary? Well, I appreciate that. That's very nice. Um, yes, no, but you're accurate. I mean, that's completely accurate. I don't think I don't like to play small, but I also am so drawn to things. I like things that can move and shape and shift culture like that's that is my personal mission statement. That is what I love. That's what I get so excited about. And so when you have anything that's going to affect culture, a a lot of people are not going to like it, and they're not supposed to. Great makes people uncomfortable. People don't like change. Growth hurts, and physically and creatively growth growth hurts. No, it's true, but then you wind up in a better place. But um, yeah, so to me, because that's what I'm drawn to. Then naturally, of course there is you're taking big chances. You you know, I said this the other day. You can't be afraid to fail. People are so afraid to fail, and I think in the social media era they're even more afraid to fail because now everybody's watching them fail. You don't. You can't do fail quietly anymore, and so you have to just not worry about that, not be afraid. My my last book is called fail until you Don't and it's basically that. And what I did was not only that write my thoughts on it. Um, I grabbed my most successful friends and had them not talk about success. But they're big fat failures. Yes, And so I had the governor of Arkansas. I had Stapleton, I had at the time songwriter that hadn't had any songs on the radio, but was plugging away and he had lots of failure. Walker Hayes, Yes and so and and his thing was he just did it. Even then when he wrote this on a book, what he did was different and it wasn't catching, and it what but he wasn't going to stop doing it. And it's as such a testament to just what you said are if you're trying to change a culture, a lot of people aren't gonna like it because a lot of people just living in that culture where they think they're happy, right, there's even know happy they can be well, they're comfortable. There's a difference right between happiness and comfortable. And I like, I also personally am very um driven by like becoming your best version of yourself, not just me but those around me, probably to an annoying point. And so I also think if you're comfortable, then are you You're not growing, Thus you're not becoming the best version of yourself, you're not evolving. But a lot of people, i'd say fifty people would rather sit in comfort, even if they know it's not the right situation, then feel the pain of change. When you said that people don't want to fail now because everything is so public, you're absolutely right. But the thing is, if we think about our failures, and we think about, for me, the times that I've either I don't I mean, I do so much radio, I don't think about failure there because it's just hours, so I'm gonna take that out. But like when I'm on live television, if I'm doing American Idol or or presenting in an award show, there have been times that I'm screwed up pretty bad. Nobody remembers it, remember it. We remember it because it's us. So therefore we feel like, well, since we remember it, everybody else must remember it too. Know they're remembering their own stuff, that's right, they don't. It's like the thing about like when you go to the beach and you're worried about how you look, and then it's like, don't be worried, because everybody else is worried about how they look. Like that's life, and if we could just assign that too, if we gave ourselves the grace to realize that people aren't really keeping trying. They don't have a no pad of all of our failures. They don't care. They're But that's ego, though, because our ego thinks people care, right. And Nikki, one of the people that works with me, she got tattooed on her arm kill your Ego and huge letters on her arm to remind her, like, don't worry about what other people think, because that's just feeding your egos. Set your ego aside, and just be driven by purpose and you'll be fine. So I was watching the Grammys. Another takeaway I had was I and maybe it's because I'm getting older, but I don't think that's it. I just don't like celebrities anymore. I don't that's troublesome for your line of work. Well, no, because I am not a celebrity, and I don't like the artists who present themselves as untouchable at and I think the consumers are annoyed by untouchable celebrities as well. And that's that's really the feeling that I got when even watching clips of it, was You're not better than us, And I feel like that is that's one of the last pieces of culture with Hollywood and a little bit of Nashville that hasn't been broken down yet where I think it's just lagging. I get annoyed with really famous people who know they're really famous and actually famous Sue and I. But I think that's where Kane has been able to thrive. Yeah. No, he's he is who he is, that's all I mean. He is the person that you see on social media, on television or he's painfully honest, and I appreciate that about him, and it's the new generation like Luke Holmbs is the same way, completely true. When Luke got a new role x, he was like, listen, I don't buy a role I didn't used to buy role xes, but now like I've made money and I bought my first one. And he told the story and you're like, hey, listen. I think some artists who have fort ye roll xes wouldn't admit to anything like that because they don't want to be something that they think they shouldn't be, when in reality, we just want to feel like it's a real person. Yes, and I think Kane has done an excellent job there. I'm sure a lot with your guidance, but it's a lot of who he is too, of low to high however, you want to define that he's just remained the same person even though the circumstances have been changing around him. Yeah, well he's he's also vulnerable, confidently vulnerable, if that makes sense. And I think that's critical too. He'll admit when he doesn't know something. I've seen him minute interview and he'll just look at the person asking him some sort of question, know, say, I don't know what that word means that you just used. You know, Like, he just is very confident and comfortable in who he is. And I think that then you don't have to front, and you don't have to put on a persona that people think, like you were saying, is disingenuous. I feel like, and then I want to get to your origin. But I feel like I am not smart enough to lie and keep up a front, because I would just forget. I would just forget. And I think that's a bit why now. And I also understand that people can be rubbed the wrong way by me quite frequently, because I do push against culture a lot, and I do have opinions, and I'm also hardheaded right, and I think a lot of times when the ven diagram happens to all the way overlap and you get all of them. I like, I understand it, but it's hard for me to be something i'm not just because I can't remember, well, I can't remember the lies I've told it. It's exhausting, Right, You're exhausting, and your energy is going more into being a person you aren't then to being the person you are, and that I think would be very tiring. So when you moved to Nashville, Oh, apparently were being raided right now by law enforcement. Yeah right, that's actually my entourage. They're coming right now. They're late. Yeah, that's that's a bad that's a bad place. Escort, the one that follows you here. You grew up in Pennsylvania, Central Pennsylvania. Yes, Like, well, what was hometown? Like small town every town in America, you know, fly over state town. Um, yeah, it's weird. The neighborhood I live in now in Nashville is larger than my entire hometown. It's really strange. Um. And I didn't know about the music industry, of course, but um, but you know, my parents were, especially my dad, really into traveling. Travel Like they love travel. They love to take his places and see things and not like the beach. I never went to the beach. I never went to the beach until it was I think one years old. But we went to England, you know, we went to you know what, weird Scotland places like that, and so I always was interested in the world and a larger world view. So when I left, you know, it was no I mean, I knew I was going to leave. I knew I was going to live there, So it wasn't a big It's obviously a jump, but it wasn't a big jump that you had never imagined when you left. It was the only thing I could imagine was was being on my own. I mean, I was seventeen and I went to college. I went to college in New Jersey for a year and a half before I moved down to Nashville, And uh, yeah, it was just the most natural transition for me. Why did your parents travel so much? Who which one? And what was why? What? I think it was? I mean it was my dad. I think, you know, they're both my parents are really intelligent, curious people, and I think they just wanted to see the world as I do. I love traveling. I love it. Yeah, I perk, yes, until you do it all the time, like I'm so torn on it now. I never travel I mean I never left my state until I don't know, teenage, like late teenager. But then you're like, I can't wait to travel on that. So I started to go places even by myself that I had seen television. Japan because the Full House Jessie and the Rippers was there. Um, Hawaii because of the Brady Bunch. So I didn't know anybody that drump from a really small town in Arkansas and nobody traveled, but I just knew places from television. I went to London because Friends was went to London. So that's how I made my first grid of where to travel. And so traveled and then started touring doing stand up and doing and I was like, god, Dan, I never want to go anywhere again. Yeah, that's a grind, and it's a it's a I'm pulled back and forth because I like it, and then you get exhausted of it, and then you really just want to pick your places? Do you do that now? Where you have to travel a bit? The last few years obviously have been different with the pandemic. I've traveled more though, um since Kane went and and Restless Roads is on that tour, was on that tour. I've traveled more for that tour than any time before because, yeah, pandemic hit, right, we were traveling and whatever. And then when we got back out on the road, it just felt different. Things just felt different and they're Unfortunately, we thought we would get back out on the road in September of twenty one and it would be like all just like butterflies and popping bottles of champagne and pats on the back, and instead it was just this like specter of this When is the other shoe gonna drop? When is this all going to go away again? And that's a heavy feeling, right, And so we found like I found like I needed to be out there every single weekend. And so instead of in the past maybe I would go to two shows a month, I was now going. Now I'm going at eight ten. Just the way it goes. You go to school for a year and a half, did you drop out? No? I transferred. I I this is I've told this story before. It's fun I've okay, so I treat me as somebody new. It's kind of embarrassing. Everybody thinks it's funny, but so I went to I was good. I liked and call or in when I was young. In high school, I like track and field running, and I was good at playing the piano, and so I got a better scholarship for playing the piano. So I went to this music school in New Jersey and it was a classical music school where I had, you know, got a piano whatever scholarship, and so um, you had to declare your major. And I didn't want to be a piano player. I didn't think that like, and I didn't want to be a music educator because those people are like the bottom of the barrel abused. You know, in an elementary school or a high school, the music teacher gets picked on the most. So um, you had to declare a major. And I was like looking at the options and they were pretty limited in school's smallest three hundred fifty people. And I was like, what job works two days a week and gets a full time salary church organist? So my major in college and seventeen pipe organ major? Right, And so I was a pipe organ major. And after like two months, I was like, oh my god, what am I doing? What? What? Like? What am I doing? This is insanity and so um, I started trying to figure out, like where, what what I could possibly do? And of the girls who was there, who was graduating, she's going to n y U to be in an entertainment attorney. She's going to law school. And I was like, oh wow, I didn't know that you could be in the music business. That's amazing. And so I just got online and learned about the music business and how do you go to college for the music business? And I ended up down here. So you moved from New Jersey to Nashville. This is probably what I mean. Ish, let's just you know, good enough. So you moved down and the way I feel, so you you moved down from New Jersey to Nashville, especially then, it seems like that would be a little bit of a culture shock, A little bit. I mean it was, Honestly, it was more of a culture shock moving from central Pennsylvania to New Jersey because central small towns are small towns regardless of where you are north or south of Dixon line. So moving back down, moving down here, I felt the energy felt similar, more similar to where I grew up. But it was just such a big town even that long twenty plus years ago. Nashville was so big, and I loved it, and I u I went to Mt s U. Belmont and Mt. S U were the two colleges, and Mt. S U just spoke more to me, and so that's where I went. I graduated. It was a great experience. Did you live in Nashville or did you live out your campus? I lived in Murfreesboro. I did what everybody does. I lived in Murfreesboro, and then I made that transition into Antioch, and then I made the transition into town. So what was your first entry level You're done with school Nashville job? Well, I was an intern. I interned the summer between my junior and senior year at Warner Chapel Music Publishing. And I didn't really know a lot about music publishing and I got in there and I really liked it because you're on the ground level of the creative process. But I was always drawn to the artists and the artist songwriters, not like I love regular songwriters, but there's something really interesting to me. So like Jason Aldine and I had talked about this all the time. He I was the intern, and he had just gotten his publishing deal and he was brand new to Nashville, and so every time we see each other we tell stories like everybody looks at like we're crazy, but twenty year old stories. And so watching these artists, it was Jason, it was a little big town, was signed there. It was watching these people come up through their careers and write their albums and develop their art and become artists was really I loved it. And so they offered me a job. I became the receptionist and then I went and worked in like the tape copy room of Warner Chapel and just work my way up. When you are in this town and you're working in the industry, but not all the way in the industry, like your goal is to be but you are there, like, hey, if you come and do this and you do well, eventually you can move into this part of it. Is that kind of a yes, an unspoken rollers I spoken. It's completely how it works. No, I mean I I tell everybody, anybody, even now, like when we hire an intern or something, it's like this could turn into a job if you do what needs to be done. It's so hard to find dependable people. It's so hard to find people that will show up. And because I've had this experience with I mean, even Mike over here, he was an intern. Then he got him an assistant producer job, and I say, he moved to Nashville and just be my assistant for a minute. And I swear to God, if you just show up, got an assistant producer job on the show Answered Phones. Now he's running the whole thing. But it's really because he's dependable and trustworthy and everything else was developed out great smart. I think it's important, but I wouldn't know that from the entry level stuff that he was doing it first, he had all the opportunity to prove that, like he's not even here, right, and he's and the fact that he's this elevated is because he's really quite brilliant. But early on, I don't need you to be that smart. I just need you to color in the circles. And if you do that wonderfully, Holy crap. Now you need the opportunity to do this and then you start to expand. And that's just been the problem that I have had with hiring people in the last three or four years, is they just want to come and do it all immediately, right, and it's we're not we're not looking for that quite yet. You're gonna have a time to shine. But if you show up on time the good attitude and a good worth work ethic, you can do anything in the whole world. You can do anything. Somebody put it best where they said, to do what I'm doing, you have to do what I did, And I think sometimes people forget that and there they just say, well, I want to do what you're doing, and then you have to do what I did. Because that all of my experience, I have no regrets. All of my experience, job experience has led me and given me the tools to do what I do now. And if I had just jumped to the front of the line, you know, I wouldn't have gotten that. I wouldn't be where I am, wouldn't be able to do this job. Did you feel working and publishing, especially early on with your music background. A lot of folks have a music background here in some way that you could like to hear a song and like here the hook and be pretty good to going hey to priack a song. Did you have that talent? Yeah, I mean I think so. I don't um, yeah, I think so. I mean, I think I know what I like, I think I have pretty down the middle of the road and musical taste. UM. But I also think I learned in publishing that, um that everybody likes different things, and not everybody's gonna like every single song. I don't like every single song that's on the radio right now, but somebody else likes that song too. So I think you also, publishing was a great way to learn to sort of get over maybe your own personal preference and just kind of think about is there some is this going to reach somebody somewhere out there? What was your first big uh to scale because obviously we're you're pretty new success that allowed you more opportunities over there at the publishing company. UM, I think my first UH. I think getting to work with Little Big Town was a big deal. And what do that? What do you mean getting to work with so they so they signed them to they signed them as songwriters and they said, okay, Martha, you're gonna work with a little Big Town. And so it's basically you get they'll send you their new songs, or they'll allow you to set up a co write or you know, sitting on a song meeting or something like that. I think that was great. I think I did work with some really great songwriters back in the day. That one I remember. Actually, I'll tell you one thing that for me from a career perspective, there was a song that Rascal Flast put out called I'm Moving On. I don't know if you know that. It's brilliant. It's brilliantly written. And I worked with I wrapped that writer, and I remember it one a c M Song of the Year, and that was back in the day when they allowed the publisher to come on stage when the songwriter accepted the award, and so I remember going up on stage and I was like, it doesn't this is it doesn't get any bigger or better than this, because in my life at that moment, it never had, you know, and I can still feel like talking about it, I still like I feel it. And so I would say that for me was like a turning point of going, Okay, wow, I'm I'm I'm attaching myself to great talent. Did you feel like publishing was where you were going to live? No? No, I was no terrible publisher. So then you're working, Are you just accumulating skills in your mind or are you just trying to find your next spot. Trying to find your next spot, right, And that's the thing is you have to do. I was trying to do do. I mean, I started my own company. I my own publishing company with a colleague. We started a second company that became what's now Big Machine Music. I mean we did like we did a good job, but I always knew. I always felt like I was wearing like a shoe that was like a size too smaller or something. And so it was the discovery process for me. When you say you started a company that became Big Machine what publishing publishing? So okay, so did Big Machine buy? Yeah? So basically, Mike Milliner, who still works for Big Machine, we started a company. We had a first company with an investor sold UM, sold that back to him at the ability to do a second company. The second company UM we signed some artists and talent that Scott had signed to his label as well, and we helped develop them. And Scott came to us and said, hey, I don't have anybody developing talent and songwriters like you guys are. I want to start a publishing wing of Big Machine. Can I do that with your company that you guys have And I knew at that point I wanted to get into management, and I think from Mike Key that really was an aspiration of his to have the resources to really they're killing it. He's killing it right now. And and so here we are. When you want to get into management at that age, you know, twenties, early thirties, What does management? What did it mean to you? Then? Oh my gosh, I had no idea. I mean, it's really I'm so fortunate because the first artist that I managed was just up and coming, and so he allowed me to learn alongside him. So I remember, I thought we had him. He was opening up for Rodney Atkins. His name is Greg Bates. He doesn't he had won. He did it for the girl, great songwriter and he so we So he was opening for Rodney Atkins like a casino in Bullocks in Mississippi. And I was like, all right, this, we got a gig. And so I didn't know, so I thought you had to advance the gig. And so I don't know why I called the casino. I should have just called Rodney. Whatever you learned, I called the casino. And this like Grouchy Man was like you want to you want to advance the gig and I was like, yeah, yes I do. And he was like, okay, well all right, what do you need? And I was like, I have no idea and he goes, okay, how many d eyes do you need? I don't know what a d I is, he was like, and then he just starts laughing. And so then he just starts telling me, is your guy playing a guitar? Yes, okay, you need a d I because he's going to plug his guitar and is he singing? And I said, yes, okay, you need a microphone? Is he bringing anyone else? No? Okay, you just advance your first show. And I was like, all right, that's crazy. And so I guess you go to your first show? Yeah, we go. We drove down there. I had a I had a red um Folkswagen Jetta and drove although it's a long long drive to Biloxi because it's water the water way down there. Yeah. Yeah, So are you finished your first show? Is it? Like? Is it a high? Is it your first amazing? You're like, we just did it, our first show. I just got me and you know what a yeah? I mean it wasn't. I mean, if you do the math it's not. It wasn't. I spent more in gas, but that's okay. So what did you learn from your time with Greg? If I were to say you get one lesson to share with the world about your time with Gregg as a manager, would you learn? I would say that I learned that. God, that's a great question. I would say during my time with him, I learned how to be confident in being a manager and be confident in asking questions and saying I don't know, but I'm going to go figure it out. I'm gonna go find out. I'm going to go I'm going to admit that I don't know the answer to something because you were inexperienced. I'm assuming there was a fear in admitting you were in experience because the people would think of you as an experience. Yeah, I mean there was there was some of that, But you know, I did I did ask a lot of questions, and a lot of people helped me. You know a lot of people. His booking agent, Mark Dennis, who works at c A. He was really helpful um early days, the label, Jimmy Harnan Scott, they were great. They were very patient with me. So from Greg then what happens. So, when I was working at another management company, so I had we did the big Machine deal, I knew I wanted to do management full time. I went to work with a management company and I really learned a ton there. And that was with UM a manager named Jayson Nowen who manages Kasey Musgraves and Dana Say and a bunch of people. And so when I started working there, they had just launched the Casey album that first, that amazing record. Yeah, And I remember just observing how they did it, and it was so different than coming from a big, big machine where country radio was the that was the biggest promotion, the way you promoted an artist to more like media marketing with Casey, it was just fascinating to watch, and so I was able to learn, Wow, there's different ways that you can reach people, and that I think is something it I've applied even now with Kine. We have to reach people in different ways because not everybody is paying attention to a New York Times article, but also not everybody is listening to radio all the time either. So working with Jason, what was your job there? Was it to help on a bunch of artists? Did you have your own artists, your day to day on line. So I had I was a day to day because I brought Greg with me, and I was a day to day. And then Jason was uh that his company was going through and I don't want to say too much of his business, but it was going through a transitional periods, so I wasn't able to really sign anything. And then um, so then I left because I was bored and I wanted to work on more projects, and so I left, and uh, that would have been in January. I left and kind of said, I'm going to go out on my own. I want to sign some more things because I wasn't really able to do that at Sandbox, which is his company. And so then I was just kind of on my own and I signed some arts. So just was working with some artists and um, and I said, and this sounds like a very um oprah thing to say, but in January was like, I'm going to say yes to everything because because something is out there, I can feel it. I know there's something coming and I don't want to miss it because I say no. So I was approached by a guy named Jay Frank to be a consultant for his company that he had, which was an independent record label, and so I said, okay, yeah, all right, I'll go try this out. Yes, I'll do it. Meanwhile managing a couple other little acts. And then I got in there and Jay said, hey, also, we have this one guy. He's a country guy. We signed. We saw him online. Um his name is Came Brown. He's from Chattanooga, Tennessee. And Jay was Jay admitted he said, I don't really know if I know what to do with it. And I said, well, let me meet him. And I met Kane and I said to Ja, I said, everything else you're working on, like respectfully, this is the thing. This is the thing. And he was like, okay, alright, why what struck you in a meeting with well Kane when the first thing I had with him, he didn't, you know, Kane's shy. He's very very shy and so and he's come out of shell quite a bit as he's gotten older. But he was very shy and didn't say much. But he just has there is a he has a charisma to him where when he walks in the room, like you turn your head, like you know what I mean, Like he has like almost that like entered force field energy that like draws you in. And so I was he's an incredible singer, and I, um, he's obviously by racial and I was fascinated by um how he had marketed himself online on Facebook. He marketed himself, you know, and he was and he understood. He would say, you know those early videos when he was going viral, I mean he was. He was growing. He was growing twenty five thousand followers a day, and we would watch it because he would post a video and he would say, I'm going to sing a cover of check Yes or No by George Strait and most people were like this guy, you know, because country music didn't look like Came Brown. And that's part of that's part of the attraction to me too, is that country music didn't look like Cam Brown and now it does a little bit more. I think with you meeting Kane mean I he maybe he didn't, but he kind of had to say yes to you too. Or did he just not have any leverage at all? I was like, I'll take anybody that's smart it knows what's going on. No, he did. He had another guy that was working with him at the company, and UM and so I was always just very like, hey, if you ever need if you have a question, I can help you answer it. And then, uh, one day he sent me a text message. It's like classic Kate. He sent me a text message and said, hey, do you want to be my person? And I was like I paid to the phone called it was like dude, of course, yeah, I'll be your person. And he's like okay, And then that was that was kind of that which I asked that question asking why do you think Kane felt like you were the right person for him? I think because, um, even before I was his quote person, I took him he wanted to hear some songs and he wanted to meet some songwriters, and I I think he creatively, I think he knew that I understood like musically where he wanted to go and and put and introduced him to some people and and I never asked anything in return for that. Um. And then I don't know personality wise, like we like we always just kind of connected. Maybe he and I have the same birthday. Maybe that's it. I don't know. How do you do with balance? Balance? Like well, yeah, no, the work life, bounce, the work life found the work life balances. Take notes on this and I struggle with this time. Well, well, somebody's not gonna like my answer, because the work life balance is a fool's mission in my opinion. Like you can't, like, you can't. You can't put that pressure on yourself, right, you can't put your pressure on yourself. Okay, this week, I'm gonna do X number of hours with my family, X number of hours with work. I'm going to turn off my phone. Like it doesn't work like that. And I think when you put that pressure on yourself, things actually become harder. I think what I try to do and people with you know, probably if you asked my family, they would, oh, Martha works all the time. Yeah probably okay, fair, but but I like it. I enjoy it. But um but I try to be where I am. That's the whole thing. I try to be where I am. So if I have two kids, and if I'm with my kids and we're playing uh, they're like big game players, you know, they love games and gambling and all that, which is I love it. So we're in an intensive Uno game, I am in that Uno game. I'm not. If I'm at my kids uh soccer game, I'm not on my phone sending emails. But if I'm at work, I'm at work. If I'm traveling, I'm traveling. And so I think that's part of it. Just being being where you are. I think that's a I think that's a version of balance, though, being ever present wherever you are. I mean, I don't know that I've heard a better definition of balance than where you are. Being where you are. I struggle with that. I think you know. I've been married now since July of last year. Otherwise I've been single my whole life, and I have worked. And one of the big struggles at the houses as soon as I wake up, laptop open, either start working on the show or start writing. And I could literally and I have, and she's actually just let me know because you should just watch and like just letting you know. I will go until it's time to go to sleep and then write before going to sleep down. And I've just stayed at it in one version the whole time. And when I'm not at it, I'm still at it, which I'm on the phone, which I don't like. That's the old version of me that was never going to change. I was never going to grow being that I was going to be more successful, but as a human being, I wasn't really growing because I was only working. There was nothing outside of these blinders except A B, C, D, E f G. That's all My struggle is being present, you know. The thing that made me be present most more than anything is when I had kids. We know we're talking, we're in when I had kids, and it's and and and and I will say this. I was never like a kid's person. I never even really saw myself as a having kids. The second baby I ever held in my life was when I had my daughter. My life, my life, imagine was the other one? No, I think it was, Yeah, I don't know. I think it was after I got married and they just assumed like, oh, you want the baby, and then I think they could tell but like I was like, it's it going to explode, Like I don't know, yeah, and then all of a sudden, like I was so comfortable being a parent. But it makes it is such a gift, and it makes me better at my job, and it makes you cut out the the deadwood, right because there's so much stuff we have that comes at us. It's just time wasting, you know. And I and I became more focused and more efficient. I liked it. You're present, like I think that I just learned something or that is a new version of balance, being present and be where you are when you're there. Yeah, because I still work fourteen hours a day, but I try to actually have dinner and put my phone away, try just forty minutes most Yes, on the weekends, I try to make sure to go we're going to I'm going to plan this and we're going to do and it has nothing to do with me writing jokes or work. And so that has been something that I've been working on. But I imagine when you start with Kine and you're kind of starting over in a sense of you got your guy, now you're together, I get imagine it's the big snowball is coming at you again. As far as like we got everything to do now to work on. Yeah, I mean I let other I let go of other things or other people, other clients I had fired me. I remember when person fired me like the night of the c m A is because I was paying too much attention to Kine and and and honestly that was all a gift, right because for the first two two and a half three years we worked together. It was all we did. We were so focused. Kine and I were like laser beam locked in and if something came at me that didn't have anything to do with what our mission, I know, I just ignored it. When when you guys were kind making your early plan was that, hey, people are going to tell you you don't look like country music, and here's what we're going to do back at that, Um, yeah, I mean people, it wasn't even a well, I didn't even think about, oh, we're going to retaliate that we're not retaliable, but but it can be. We're gonna put out great songs over and over again, keep doing what we're doing right and super serve the fans and super serve the people that they are there for you, you know. And that's even the advice now. It's like even Kane and I talked about it now where people are so mean on the internet, and it's like, just lean into the ones that are kind, you know. Yeah, when whenever I moved here, it was awful. I mean that the first two and half years were awful for me. You're awful. I can't imagine. And it wasn't just Nashville because Nashville kicked the crap out of me for a long time. But it was, you know, they took us and put us on all of these country radio stations, which meant a lot of these stations had radio guys that were either retiring or they were firing because ratings weren't good. And so we weren't just feeling it on a level here at home them, we were getting it in every single market. So I had to tell my guys, like, stay off of everything, let me handle it, stay off of it. But what we're going to do, We're never going to get those people. They are never they are. They made a couple of years come back around. But we got to take our people who are with us and make sure they know that they are the most important thing and that's who we're here for. And so it was a version of that where we just knew we weren't getting those people who were that were upset that we existed. Yeah you can't, and that'll that'll exhaust you. And why not lean into what's working and because eventually they'll start growing and and for you, for kine, for whoever. Those then they start out numbering the dissenters and then all of a sudden they start quieting the dissenters, and that's where you want to be. And then some of the dissenters come back around and go, you know what, I don't really give you a chance at first, but they don't. They never said they're wrong, by the way, they never said they were wrong. They're just like, you know, I hated you at first, and now you know, I'm sister like you. They won't even say they like us, but they're like, hey, my sister like Sha, but I just I know what that feels like to go and and and not the same way at all because we do different things. But just have everyone immediately go you're not us and you don't represent us, when in the end I represented them more than anything in the past that had claimed to do so, which was the craziest thing to me exactly. But you never had that opportunity to even express that. So when Kane is putting out the first music as a managed was he signed yet or did you do that with him? Um? Yeah, it feels complicated. Yeah, it's complictly Okay, So when you put you when you put out your first music that you're going to go to DSPs, digital or radio, like your first this is our first big release together. Why did you choose the body of work that you chose? Like, what was it to you that that said here, this is our entrance into a big world. Yeah? When he So, when I first started working with Kane, he had put some songs out independent, he was in a production deal and independently had put some songs out and they did really well. So then when he made his first like you said, it was an EP, it was a five or six song EP for Sony, it was um it was a couple of those songs that he had put out, you know, they never really been including a collection of work. And then the other were when came he did really work on his songwriting. When he came to town, he really worked on songwriting and found his small group. And so the others were songs that he had written that he was proud of. And Kane was touring, he was selling out. What was crazy is he was selling out undred two thousand cap rooms without having any product out. It was wild and so we really couldn't get that first EP out quick enough. So when you put out what was the first song, I'm trying to think that was used to Love You Sober was his first kind of song. So why that um? That one was a song that he That was the first song he ever wrote when he came to Nashville and he put it on social media and came was one of the first artists to tease their music in Nashville, at least, I don't want to outside Nashville. Other people were doing it, but in Nashville to really tease his music on social media, and the demand for it was so high that he put it out. Were you satisfied with the reaction and also the success of the song because it wasn't a number one I don't think it was the thirties number seven, But did you feel like, hey, we got some good traction here with the first one, or we disappointed him? Well, we put it out and it at the time, iTunes was the thing, you know. iTunes really mattered, and it did really well on iTunes and number one on iTunes. We're like, oh my gosh, when we put this, take this to the radio, It's going to be like an instant hit. And it wasn't. And so that was a bit of a reality check. And the thing about it is with Kane was selling all these tickets, and so we were like, you know what, we're still connecting with people obviously because they're coming out and seeing the show and there this song was a gold record and all of this stuff. So we just you just have to kind of keep moving, keep working towards something. The second song, UM, the label chose it was called Thunder in the Rain. You know, I don't remember that one. I remember that. I know the first one, Thunder in the Rain was went to like number forty eight. It was not UM, not not necessarily the greatest one we had, and so thunder in the Rain, uh, I remember when that was out. It was up tempo and it was like, okay, this is but it's real musically, it wasn't really as much Kine. It's not like he performs it live every night or whatever. But UM, by this point he had made a full album, and so we put out his first full album UM with a number forty eight song coming off the chart. Are you guys like it's like two worlds, it's like one world. You're selling both the tickets and music. Yeah, because at the time that was the thing. We actually sold downloads. But then you have I'm assuming these old school UM gatekeeper radio programmers that just aren't buying it. I mean, is buying it the term that you would use. I mean there was I think, you know, and I would never say who. I don't. I don't even know if they were still around, but I remember there was one UM one person at a station, and I didn't really get in the weeds on that because you know, the record labels have like whole teams of people that talked to the radio and stuff. And but somehow, I don't know, I think because we were doing a show in the market and I remember I was talking to this guy and and he uh, I was like, hey, Kane, sold out the show in your market, and uh, it would be awesome, like if you could, you know, maybe like play the song. We'd love to sold out the show in their market. And you're begging for some little radio sport. Oh yeah, that happened everywhere. And he and the guy said, well, we don't. I don't play urban music. I play country music. And I said, oh, I know, that's that's wonderful because Cam Brown is a country artist. And he said, no, he's not, and I said, yes, he is. It's like this like it was like comic almost, and yes he is, and he goes, I know he's not. I just looked at him and I said, okay, well maybe you should go listen to him. And that was the end of the conversation and he did not play the song. I looked at him. I know he's not country. I looked at him, and I'm assuming again. I'm gonna do a lot of assuming here that as Kane has again, and we're going to end this in a little bit talking about how MASSI if he is yet still under appreciated that again, how massive he is in places that's probably still happening in a way, and I think that's probably why he's not getting the respect he deserves. I think, do you mean, like for award nominations for everything? You know? I don't. I don't know. I mean I think sometimes, uh, I don't know, maybe people put their vote behind what they see themselves in and maybe they're superficial and don't see themselves and how somebody looks. Well, then I will say it. I do think that is a major There's just no reason that an artist, if you take away faces and skin color and genitals, let's pull all that off. Okay, it's the weirdest shape and you just line up body of work, songs, uh streams, hits, radio, radio, number one concert. There's no reason that Kane shouldn't be and he is to people like me and fans, but to the people that are organizing these higher level awards, there's no reason he shouldn't be in those conversations, right, So what's the factor keeps him from being there? If you can answer that question, I mean, yeah, I don't. I don't know how to answer that question. Was the question I just did. What's well? And what's interesting is it's not everywhere, right. Cane's on the Time one hundred list, the Time one hundred list when the one hundred most influential people in the world, because he's changing. He has changed the country format I think, and perceptions of what is country music, and so it's not it's not everywhere right. But in the same respect, to your point, came Brown should be nominated for CMA Entertainer of the Year and not I'm glad you said that, and not Male Artist because he definitely nominated for that too. But that's what I was saying. He definitely should be. But you're absolutely right. He should be. He sold out all twenty nine NBA arenas. You know, he has god billion streams. I don't even know how many feel like just buying a billboard and going here are the facts, listen facts, or you could do like they do sometimes and with sports, like this person has all these accolades, this person has gone for this many yards, which one are you taken? And then they don't say who it is, and then they pop them up and it's like, oh, I didn't know that Kirk Cousins had better stats than and you're like, oh, I had no idea. I've just been led to believe, because I mean I would I would be going crazy. He's the big He is the most unappreciated massive artist that I have ever seen here, right And I and is that a is how how do you how do you change people's habits? Because I also think sometimes like with the with voting for those awards and stuff, people vote out of habit too. Oh yeah, so and so, and you're like that that person hasn't put an album out in six years, but they've won the last six times, so you just kind of vote for them out of habit. That's happening less and less. I understand that point, but I don't know that that's applicable to Kane necessarily. I don't either. I think that you still have a small selection of folks that are not going to give Kane his due because of the same reason the first program director said he wasn't going to play Kine's urban music. And I believe that is being shaved down every single day, and that is being filtered out a little more all the time. But I would be lying if I didn't say that it wasn't there. And to be as again, you said he sold at every NBA arena. He goes to uh l A. And so when you play the forum, where do you play Stable Scrypto? Yeah, twice in a year, two years? Who else can do? Who else can do? There's a few and they're for Entertainer of the Years. Yeah, no, it's true. I mean, but what's interesting is if you look at the fan voted awards, UM, the CMT Awards always wins, always nominated, always once he hosted them last year. Well, and I don't want to keep beating this up, but I just feel like he is vastly um. And I won't say disrespected, because it's hard to say disrespect when someone has done so much, but he's done it all, yet he still hasn't been given what I think is deserved, maybe underappreciated. Well, I have said like four times already, and I don't want to keep saying the same word because we said underproach at nineteen times in the stupid podcast. There are people to count those things. But yeah, I just it's just it's amazing for me to see what you guys have done together, and it is at times frustrating to see what other people won't allow. And it's only a very small it's a select group, but that's a big enough group to actually not allow it to happen. Right, So does the group need to change? And the group is changing slowly, But like you said, people don't like when the cultures being changed on a on a smaller level. I just have empathy because I've been there and I know what it's like to win everything and have everything, and you're still to some people enough people to matter a joke undeserving in right. So and that's me. I'm not talking about kin, but I'm sure that it's very I mean, it's a parallel situation, and I think that you, Um, again, like you just like trust me, Like anytime those nominations come out, like it's most people, it's like Christmas morning and oh my gosh. And for me, it's just like dread. You know, it's it's and it's um. And Kane's always gracious and if they invite him to come to the show and perform, he always comes and and performs and does all of that and he tries to be very gracious about it. And I appreciate that and always take the high road. But do you ever like, dude, you don't have to do that. Yeah? Sometimes, yeah, my my people do that to me too. Sometimes We've really been dicked over a couple of times in a couple of situations, and like, don't do it? Yeah, why, like they don't respect to you, why are you going to respect it back? Well, I just I love what you guys have done and are doing, and I do feel like you're underappreciate it, Um, And again, I think you'll be looked up on your it. You can your team as one of the real game changers for an entire era of country music that in the future when it's looked upon it's going to be normal because you guys have normalized it. Did you know you actually built the road six ft over to the left or right? I don't mean left or right, but you built the road in a new place. And people are gonna try to that road in the future and they're not even gonna know and they're just gonna look at you someone, Wow. Yeah, we're all doing it because, like Kane, that's what my hope. It's my hope is that the eight year old doesn't ever know country music where they don't necessarily see them all types of people represented, because there are all types of country fans out there. So what's what's the goal then? Now? Is that when you and Caine talk about goals, we have, you know, my little team. We have a meeting at the end of every year, or mostly the beginning. We're tired at the end of the year. We always plan at the end of the year and then we're like, we'll just catch back up in like mid January. What what do you talk about this year? Like, what is what's the goal this year? In the next five years? Yeah, I mean for Kane, he doesn't like to he would say this him of if he doesn't like to set goals. I think it's a lot of pressure for me, Um, I'm always every success we have. I will say this for both of us, he and I, we never um when we do have a big success, we don't really like revel in it, you know, we don't like can you enjoy it? Though? I I mean maybe for a split second. But for me, like any time you have success, it's simply an opportunity and almost like for me, I feel an obligation to build and grow the next thing. So how do we build and grow? Oh you whatever you host the CMT wars, Okay, how do we build and grow the next thing or whatever it may be. So I would say for me, Um, for Kane, those short term goal next year is I'd like to really expose the world to him, you know, and we'll do that through touring, and we'll do that through probably some other collaborate like musical collaborations. You're now working with Restless Road, Yes, so what what is that story on you with them? So? I mean the Restless Road backstories been told a couple of times, but they know Kane from years ago. And so when we um For me, when Caine and I a few years of twenty nineteen pre pandemic, UM I felt like we were in a good place and I and I we sat down and we had a meeting and I asked him, I said, do you want to be UM like the type of artist who tour six months out of the year and you know, we had some hits, unders about some selling records and tickets and then chills for six months out of the year. Or do you want to be the type of artists that is building like businesses, but kind of working all the time and putting their hand in different things and whatever. And he was like, I want to take advantage of this opportunity as much as I possibly can. That's what I want to do. And I said, okay, then we're gonna build out some other like verticals or whatever term you want to use. And so we started to joint venture label with Sony. We started production company, UM he started publishing company and Restless Road. We'd signed there the first stars we signed to our joint venture label. So we have, yes, we manage them, but we also have a different type of investment and in them and so UM my goal is to grow them so that this can be that they can be. We don't have anything in the format like them, and I think that they're incredibly talented and they're good people, so I want them to be successful for the rest of their lives. What is your most emotional career moment? Um, my most emotional career moment? Would you know? I don't want to go to the negative, right, but like any of those disappointments like you're talking about, you know, um, oh you're not nominated for this, You're not nominated for that, you know, like that stuff, I take it pretty hard because I take it as a personal failure. You know, I really do. Like if if Cain Brown is not nominated for a c M Award, I take it as a personal failure. And so that's very like emotional, like like oh I couldn't do enough. Um. But on the positive, I would say, I would say, on the positive, probably um, Like like the A m A Awards with Kine were amazing, his first one where he won three a m as and got to go up on stage and in front of his you know, all types of formats of music. That was a really big deal. And you know, I think just that our tour, getting back to touring after the pandemic was very emotional, you know, because it was such a complex set of emotions. We felt we'll kind of wrap with this. I mean we've done an hour. I could do three. Honestly, this you's just been great. Um. When it comes to new artists and where there are a lot of new artists that listened to this podcast. This this podcast was kind of born out of me talking to songwriters and people to do so much of the creating, if it's a person in a job like yours, or a songwriter or a publisher, a producer. Um. And it's kind of swollen so big that artists commend because they want to talk about the second layer. So we have all these new artists that listen to this, going, all right, how do I go from new, unsigned, unmanaged to meeting those kinds of people. So all that being said, like, how does someone get a manager? Yeah, someone that's not in Nashville, especially right, I think, um, honestly, it's easier now, believe it or not, than ever before because we have social media and you have TikTok, and I think the way you get a manager and the way you get a team around you is you create a fan base and you start figuring out how to connect with people and how to create your little world online. Um, and that I mean, I think that that's the first step build your fan base. Well, I'll end it how I started. I just think you're such a visionary for a lot of the things that you do that we didn't even talk about here. I also think Kane is like such a good dude aside from just the music part of it. Like, I just love the guy just le mean, yeah, he is who he is, and it took me a long time to understand because he didn't talk, and I was always like, Okay, I don't know if he's a jerk or if he's shoy. He comes off aloof oh again, I do too at times if I if I'm not when I'm on, I'm completely off and people are like why, guy's a dick, and I'm like, no, no no, no, I don't want to bother people, so I'm just gonna sit back. And I think I was like, I don't know if I like this guy because he doesn't talk. Maybe he hates me. And then I'm projecting and making assumption and he's probably jumping the same conclusions. Just so that being said, I'm the longer I've been here and been able to spend time alongside him and then even with him, and you know, I think we have kind of a minor almost friendship now. It's what a miner almost what I call it, because he'll text you know, well, he's a vital in basketball. You know, that's kind of stuff happens. But it's just like, I just like the guy for a lot of the things he does that people don't know about. And I'm not even gonna say some of the stuff they are now, but he just does a lot because I think he's been through a lot and he wants to help people not go through the same crap that he went through or similar things. Yes, so I feel like like Nashville got lucky to have them, and I feel like, and I'm Nashville is the country music world, and I feel like that that is not understood yet. I agree with you, and I feel like Kane got really lucky to have you, and I just I just love what you guys are doing, so thank you so much. And I think Mike, I think we hit an hour here, huh so usually we do ten minutes, but we didn't. I'm just getting no, we don't a minute, we don't, we don't. Well, thank you for for coming by, thank you for having I think I think people will take a lot from this. And UM, Kane Brown, Restless Road. Who do you have on your arsenal? Now that's UM. We just signed a band, a non country band and all pop sort of since pop band called Nightly that we're really excited about. UM. And then kind of all of the nineteen and then UM an artist named Jylan Schneider who just signed a deal with Broken Boat. All right there she has, thank you and much salt to h