054 - The sustainability talk, tunnels and fire safety with Arnold Dix (part 1)

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hello, and welcome to episode 54 of the fire science show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Great to have you here in the first year of fire science show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We've opened up with the interviewer with the famous professor, professor Guillermo Rein, And for a good start for the second year, I also have a quite famous professor in, here today, and I'm really thrilled to host him on the show.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>His name is Arnold Dix he's from Australia and he specializes in tunnels.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In fact, he's the president elect of international tunnel association and, He just received an NFPA award for committee service on his, input to NFPAs 5 0 2 and one 30, which are critical for tunnel engineering.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So he certainly knows a thing or two about tunnels.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I've met him for the first time, like 10 years ago in Sweden, on a Metro seminar where he gave a really interesting speech at the conference dinner about his journey.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I actually thought he is a standupper who was just invited because that talk was absolutely hilarious and I loved it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And now I've rediscovered him 10 years later, uh, just a few months ago in the Graz conference in Austria, where he gave a really passionate talk about.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Fire engineers, learning the wording of sustainability words, how to talk the talk, as he said, how to communicate with sustainability goals in mind and how these goals can actually change the perception of your own work and the telling projects we're involved with.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Particular topic , was the one that I've invited him into the show with.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But as you will hear, we've went far beyond that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And it was really, really great adventure.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>He asked me before the interview, what are we going to talk about?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I told him, we will start with sustainability and no one knows where we will end.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And that's actually what happened, but it ended up really well.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I actually ended, it's not an end because I have invited him for parts two, which you will hear the next week where we will talk about more and more interesting, aspects of, tunnel engineering model technologies and the role of fire science and all that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I hope you will love it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Did absolutely every single minute of this discussion is such a great speaker and such a cheerful person.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I absolutely adore him.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, I hope you will hear that through the podcast that the energy is great and we're having great time for.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Discussing important matters in fire safety.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I guess I got your attention right now and I hope, uh, you'll stay till the end of the episode and tune in for the next week where we will hear part two let's spin the intro and let's go.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>hello everybody.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Welcome to the second year of the podcast and we're opening it with, uh, great guests.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I have today.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Professor Arnold Dix the President Elect of International Tunnel Association.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Hey Arnold.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Great.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Great to have you in the

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<v Arnold Dix>you.

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<v Arnold Dix>Thanks for having me.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah, I'm very happy, always happy to have great guests.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, from a small sample, uh, in the conference few weeks ago, it's gonna be, it is gonna be a

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<v Arnold Dix>I'm,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>talk

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<v Arnold Dix>Well, I'm excited.

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<v Arnold Dix>I'm excited.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm, excited as well.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, uh, I've snapped you at the Graz event and, you gave a really good talk about, uh, New ways of communicating, , with everyone around non-engineers, especially in relation to, sustainability and, and our need to change the way, we communicate in order to.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Keep our jobs and, and still be able to doing what, what we're doing.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The world is changing.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So we need to adapt, but before we go into how to speak to speak or talk to talk,  like you said, let's settle up.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How sustainable tunnels are.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You really think that, tunnels are a great part of, of sustainability of the new world.

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<v Arnold Dix>what a loaded question to get off straight up, punch me straight in the nose.

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<v Arnold Dix>Come.

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<v Arnold Dix>Double barrel to the head.

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<v Arnold Dix>You have asked the absolute cl of a question for us right here at this stage in human history, because traditionally you'd have to say our tunnels have been instrumental in delivering, water, sanitation, power, um, all transport, all the great things for our civilization.

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<v Arnold Dix>However, right now, I think there's some big questions about the value proposition of underground infrastructure moving forward from a sustainability point of view and from a carbon footprint point of view and from a, uh, climate crisis point of view.

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<v Arnold Dix>And that's why I made that presentation in Graz saying my friends.

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<v Arnold Dix>We need to understand this narrative right now in order to not only.

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<v Arnold Dix>Communicate the sustainability of the underground, and what it delivers for humanity and the planet, but to double check that we are right, actually to double check, just, I think it's time to pause and have a look and go, are these assets that we've created really, as wonderful as we think they are in terms of the current pressing climate emergency sustainability agenda.

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<v Arnold Dix>What have you?

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<v Arnold Dix>I think the answer is yes.

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<v Arnold Dix>Like I do think they are.

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<v Arnold Dix>Um, and, and I think they're overwhelmingly.

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<v Arnold Dix>Yes, because they're intergenerational.

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<v Arnold Dix>So whereas buying a new car or, making a choice over some consumer item or, even building a, a road or building a house or something like that, you've really gotta.

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<v Arnold Dix>You know, ask yourself some hard questions.

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<v Arnold Dix>I think with our underground infrastructure, because it lasts and it lasts for hundreds or maybe even thousands of years that really tips it into the, yes, this really is transformational kind of stuff.

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<v Arnold Dix>Let's do it right.

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<v Arnold Dix>And generation upon generation of human beings.

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<v Arnold Dix>And.

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<v Arnold Dix>The planet itself can take advantage of it, but, but to answer it like that, we've really gotta stop,

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

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<v Arnold Dix>look in the mirror and go, what's the story on the carbon.

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<v Arnold Dix>What's the story.

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<v Arnold Dix>What's the story with the cement?

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<v Arnold Dix>What's the story with the method for construction?

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<v Arnold Dix>what's gonna happen to that carbon?

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<v Arnold Dix>Is it actually encapsulated?

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<v Arnold Dix>Is it gonna be leached?

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<v Arnold Dix>You know, All of devil in the detail.

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<v Arnold Dix>That's, that's what we need to really get our head around right now to answer this robustly.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>we have some landmark projects.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Literally changed the way, how communities or even countries work.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like I think about Euro tunnel project between UK and, and Europe.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's, that's a transformational project that, that completely changed not only the, the transport situation, but the, the whole economy around it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you think about the biggest tunnels in Alps, it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not about shortening travel by 15 minutes.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's the, alternative is few hundred kilometers long detours through mountains.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>if you think about this, uh, Primitive civilizations early humans,  for one case being on one side of Alps and the others being on the other side, that was like a few days of travel at best.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, and now they're just, one tunnel trip, uh, beyond.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So that is truly transformational from a societal point of view, and to finish up with, with, , huge.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>City, shaping projects like Memorial tunnel comes into my mind.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Sorry.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Memorial is the, the fire counterpart, but it was all about putting intersection of, highways underneath Boston to recover the city for its, citizens.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you being in this community for quite long.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you, did you observe this transformational role to societies, um, being done with these projects?

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<v Arnold Dix>Yeah, no, I think, and your, your cases are really good.

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<v Arnold Dix>I'm old enough and certainly ugly.

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<v Arnold Dix>To have been in Boston and actually saw those projects get rolled out.

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<v Arnold Dix>I stood there and watched the roads taken from above and put below.

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<v Arnold Dix>Um, I remember, I think it was the Gillette factory, , was there and they were busy going around the Gillette factory to again, to put stuff underneath and, seen something similar in Madrid.

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<v Arnold Dix>With the K 30 and Metro projects, they're just trans absolutely transformational for the cities and you're right.

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<v Arnold Dix>It, it it's like liberating the city for the people again, making, making the space human.

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<v Arnold Dix>And I think that.

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<v Arnold Dix>That type of transformational infrastructure really hits the nail.

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<v Arnold Dix>on some of these SDGs, you know, these 21st century SDGs like sustainable cities and communities, you know, item number 11 or, decent work and economic growth or, life on the land, all these sorts of things.

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<v Arnold Dix>I think they're wonderful, but I think we need to pause and, and be very clear that they really are delivering and we're not just.

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<v Arnold Dix>letting a government put up a project for the sake of putting up another underground project for me, this, this century now with all the troubles we have as humanity and the environment, it's we really need to stop and go.

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<v Arnold Dix>does it really stack up for the planet and our people right now, but yeah, I, what I've seen I'm I, I wouldn't be going to be president of the ITTA if I wasn't absolutely a hundred percent committed to the transformational capabilities of underground infrastructure.

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<v Arnold Dix>I mean, they're just.

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<v Arnold Dix>The things that they can do for people in planet are just without peer, but, but gotta do it right.

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<v Arnold Dix>And gotta make sure that , attention to detail.

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<v Arnold Dix>So yeah, no, I've seen it.

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<v Arnold Dix>It's true.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I like working on these projects.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>they have, nice cling to it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They, they they're massive they're as you said, intergenerational, they will be here for a hundred years.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so, uh, if you do a good job there, it's well done job for, for many, many years now, in your Graz presentation, or in the paper that was counterpart to the presentation, you've mentioned.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There unfortunately were projects that were canceled because of the sustainability goals.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like some Metro project in Germany that was signed off because of the sustainability policies, whatever that, that, that was so now we are entering some crazy realm in which a thing.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You and me are convinced is sustainable can be like signed off because of, of the sustainable legal.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And that, that worries me.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That worries me.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Are we doing a good job, talking about this dance, like you've said that we need to learn, we need to relearn the communication to be able to explain this, benefit.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>in the language that the stakeholders will understand.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And unfortunately, our stakeholders in here are politicians, which is a difficult breed to talk.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So yeah, let's go to talking to talk what's up with that.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>What, what

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<v Arnold Dix>Yeah.

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<v Arnold Dix>I th look that paper I wrote, cuz it, dawned on me when that German project got questioned and then subsequently too, there's been quite a lot of press over the recent, new openings in the UK, the new meso there and various, commentary saying, could this be the last.

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<v Arnold Dix>Of public transporters.

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<v Arnold Dix>We know it built in the UK.

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<v Arnold Dix>And if I hadn't thought about this before, when I'd read that headline, I probably would've fallen off my chair.

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<v Arnold Dix>How could it be this the last and when you.

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<v Arnold Dix>Sort of dig down into it.

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<v Arnold Dix>It seems that the world is desperate for small scale solutions.

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<v Arnold Dix>They're now talking about the 15 minute city people are becoming, I think perhaps post COVID even less inclined to what a, share a space with other people for transport.

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<v Arnold Dix>Whereas we might have been happy to jump on a Metro train and share it with.

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<v Arnold Dix>You know, 300 of our closest new best friends for 20 minutes, people are less inclined to wanna do that.

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<v Arnold Dix>They're more inclined to want to take a 15 minute from their home.

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<v Arnold Dix>Um, perhaps using one of these new forms of personalized public transport, one of these little battery scooters or, or whatever, not even push bike, even.

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<v Arnold Dix>I mean, I can't believe I'm so old that a push bike is now considered old fashioned.

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<v Arnold Dix>Like what.

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<v Arnold Dix>How did, how did a push bike become old fashioned?

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<v Arnold Dix>And how did walking become someone uncool?

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<v Arnold Dix>You have to be on one of these new high tech battery platform thingies, um, to propel you the 15 minutes to your point of origin.

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<v Arnold Dix>So if that's true, and if we're witnessing a social change and a social, change of expectation of what it means to be in a city, then.

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<v Arnold Dix>Some of the concepts and rationale for the things we build.

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<v Arnold Dix>Is questioned are, are being questioned.

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<v Arnold Dix>And so, and, and in order to, to rise to the occasion of those questions, we have to talk the talk cause the engineering talk, I don't, think's gonna do it anymore.

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<v Arnold Dix>Like we, I mean, gosh, we'd love to talk about the aquifers of the, you know, the ancient.

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<v Arnold Dix>Greeks or, you know, how wonderful the Romans were and look at their tunnels and, point to the, the tunnels in Paris and New York and, London and Sydney and, , Beijing and, Moscow.

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<v Arnold Dix>And, we wanna talk about all of that.

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<v Arnold Dix>But no one much wants to hear about that.

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<v Arnold Dix>Now, now, now they wanna talk about, well, um, how's this gonna impact my lifestyle?

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<v Arnold Dix>How how's this gonna impact my life balance?

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<v Arnold Dix>How, is this gonna impact?

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<v Arnold Dix>Life on the land.

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<v Arnold Dix>is it gonna have some, carbon footprint?

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<v Arnold Dix>What's the carbon footprint?

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<v Arnold Dix>How much of that am I responsible for?

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<v Arnold Dix>Surely there's a smaller solution to this couldn't we just put in a track or something and use my little micro scooter to zoom along to get my 15 minutes.

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<v Arnold Dix>well, all of this, I think we've really gotta get our head around it because.

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<v Arnold Dix>The world needs us more than ever more, more than ever to help with the challenges that we currently face.

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<v Arnold Dix>I mean, my goodness here, like here we are talking about stopping a Metro on the basis from sustainability option and within.

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<v Arnold Dix>What four or five hours flight.

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<v Arnold Dix>There's probably a billion people who still don't have fresh water and sanitation.

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<v Arnold Dix>So how about, you know, how do we put this into context?

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<v Arnold Dix>How do we, as citizens on the planet decide what.

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<v Arnold Dix>Not only how do we talk this global agenda for one people, one planet, climate crisis, all that.

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<v Arnold Dix>Not only how do we talk it, but how do we deliver, um, as engineers.

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<v Arnold Dix>and that's why I think this getting the narrative under our, under our skin ex accepting amongst engineers, we can talk the engineering talk, but let's get this new way of talking and thinking.

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<v Arnold Dix>as a language we really understand.

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<v Arnold Dix>So we can go into a meeting and say, Yes, it's gonna take a lot of carbon to build this particular underground piece of infrastructure, but you're gonna have it for 500 years, if not more.

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<v Arnold Dix>And it's gonna deliver reliable transportation solutions, even with climate change, even just with natural climate variability.

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<v Arnold Dix>So really get on the front foot, uh, with the language, um, and.

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<v Arnold Dix>And that has to be good, cuz it helps us understand what the politicians think are important.

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<v Arnold Dix>And it helps us understand what the communities are thinking are important and it might even help us understand what is important.

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<v Arnold Dix>Dare I say it.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>you've mentioned it's not only for communication.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's also to double check ourselves with, are we within these goals?

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If the goals are the goals now that that drive the projects that drive the.

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<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>choice of the, of the project.

00:16:32.985 --> 00:16:35.174
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We need to be sure that we're within them.

00:16:35.174 --> 00:16:36.975
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Otherwise our projects will be cut off.

00:16:37.455 --> 00:16:46.971
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, my, my podcast is obviously targeted at fire safety engineers, not, the presidents of large companies that would love before a tunnel being built or, or, or people who would lobby.

00:16:47.241 --> 00:16:53.727
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But, but still we, we, we have an important, task in here by providing safety and safeties.

00:16:54.717 --> 00:17:10.511
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>One of the biggest concerns in relation to tunnels especially in Europe, after, after Mount Blanc tunnels and other large tunnel fires that, opened the, a new chapter in the discussion on, on this fire safety, like fire safety become the number one thing being discussed.

00:17:10.511 --> 00:17:11.832
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, and I see it on the projects.

00:17:11.832 --> 00:17:18.990
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I see it on the ground that . When we talk to the tunnel, fire safety is maybe number one topic in there.

00:17:18.990 --> 00:17:19.996
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like how do we do it?

00:17:20.296 --> 00:17:28.619
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And here in the view of, of sustainability question is, are we delivering, uh, sustainable fire safety?

00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:34.018
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Because you know, safety for safe of the, of being safer From my perspective.

00:17:34.018 --> 00:17:36.444
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not always the best choice.

00:17:36.444 --> 00:17:37.884
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How safe can you be?

00:17:38.244 --> 00:17:40.434
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That that's a good question that we need to answer.

00:17:40.434 --> 00:17:42.744
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>How, how safe a tunnel needs to be.

00:17:43.105 --> 00:17:45.275
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, How much work in there.

00:17:45.275 --> 00:17:59.973
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We, we should put  I'm thinking about, for example, a difference between making, I know spending a lot of money on pacifier protection, or maybe making a tunnel a little bigger, because bigger is inherently safer in terms of fire.

00:18:00.513 --> 00:18:05.334
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, We don't take these decisions based on engineering assessment.

00:18:05.693 --> 00:18:09.780
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We just, uh, speak the code and, and follow the, the rules.

00:18:09.780 --> 00:18:12.830
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Maybe we should, think a more what's your

00:18:13.040 --> 00:18:17.721
<v Arnold Dix>You like, you know how to cut to the really sort of tough questions straight up.

00:18:18.121 --> 00:18:24.570
<v Arnold Dix>Yeah, point well, what you've just raised these issues around safe.

00:18:24.691 --> 00:18:26.667
<v Arnold Dix>What's safe enough also.

00:18:27.019 --> 00:18:31.759
<v Arnold Dix>What resources are required to deliver a particular level of safety.

00:18:32.239 --> 00:18:40.429
<v Arnold Dix>And then even your just casually in passing saying, well, we could just make it a little bigger and that would make it inherently more safe.

00:18:41.148 --> 00:18:42.888
<v Arnold Dix>Oh my, this is it.

00:18:42.979 --> 00:18:48.259
<v Arnold Dix>This is the whole narrative sustainability agenda right there in your sentences.

00:18:48.739 --> 00:18:51.618
<v Arnold Dix>And if can I just peel them back?

00:18:52.384 --> 00:18:54.634
<v Arnold Dix>I'll just peel some layers off the onion there.

00:18:55.054 --> 00:18:57.874
<v Arnold Dix>So I investigate disasters.

00:18:57.903 --> 00:19:03.218
<v Arnold Dix>You, you know that like, so, um, I went, uh, after Mo Blan, I went there.

00:19:03.218 --> 00:19:05.458
<v Arnold Dix>I gave some advice doesn't matter to who, but I.

00:19:05.962 --> 00:19:06.623
<v Arnold Dix>I was there.

00:19:07.103 --> 00:19:10.163
<v Arnold Dix>Um, investigated other disasters around the world.

00:19:10.163 --> 00:19:12.653
<v Arnold Dix>Some of them known some of them not known.

00:19:12.803 --> 00:19:16.853
<v Arnold Dix>And won't come as a surprise to you or listeners to know most of the disasters in tunnel.

00:19:16.913 --> 00:19:19.762
<v Arnold Dix>We don't talk about because they're kept secret, of course.

00:19:20.211 --> 00:19:26.699
<v Arnold Dix>and we know that underground humans are extremely vulnerable to being injured and kill.

00:19:27.104 --> 00:19:28.993
<v Arnold Dix>Because it's a confined space.

00:19:29.228 --> 00:19:31.478
<v Arnold Dix>let's just cut to the cut to the chase.

00:19:31.778 --> 00:19:42.304
<v Arnold Dix>Um, and we also have not just the confinement in terms of the toxic gases, but we've also got this confinement and re retransmission or reflection of radiation.

00:19:42.308 --> 00:19:45.901
<v Arnold Dix>So you've also got this, the underground oven effect down there as well.

00:19:45.901 --> 00:19:48.560
<v Arnold Dix>So you've sort of got the worst of all worlds and then.

00:19:49.260 --> 00:19:55.411
<v Arnold Dix>To add insult to injury, if it's not going so well, the damn thing collapses as well because of the structural integrity consequences.

00:19:55.978 --> 00:20:06.468
<v Arnold Dix>but I mean the good news being, if that happens, you're usually long and truly being killed anyway, because, you know, to actually hurt the structure, like that is very severe, but okay.

00:20:06.468 --> 00:20:07.698
<v Arnold Dix>So leaving, so, okay.

00:20:07.698 --> 00:20:10.307
<v Arnold Dix>We've got this underground space and it's inherently dangerous.

00:20:11.282 --> 00:20:12.512
<v Arnold Dix>One of the troubles.

00:20:12.512 --> 00:20:19.772
<v Arnold Dix>I think that we face as fire engineers is we get fixated on making the tunnel, it safe as safe as we can.

00:20:20.853 --> 00:20:24.782
<v Arnold Dix>We, and we look in the mirror and go, oh, could we do something better?

00:20:24.782 --> 00:20:27.078
<v Arnold Dix>Could we, could we add some more ventilation?

00:20:27.078 --> 00:20:30.118
<v Arnold Dix>Could we, change the, the monitoring systems?

00:20:30.118 --> 00:20:33.336
<v Arnold Dix>Could we, offer some better passive protection?

00:20:33.340 --> 00:20:33.695
<v Arnold Dix>Oh no.

00:20:33.695 --> 00:20:38.465
<v Arnold Dix>Could we act well, let's put some active fire suppression, um, are our human factors in order?

00:20:38.465 --> 00:20:40.115
<v Arnold Dix>Could we do better communications?

00:20:40.115 --> 00:20:40.445
<v Arnold Dix>Can we.

00:20:40.851 --> 00:20:42.351
<v Arnold Dix>Control the people entering.

00:20:42.351 --> 00:20:44.270
<v Arnold Dix>Can we better help them evacuate?

00:20:44.270 --> 00:20:46.310
<v Arnold Dix>Are the evacuation pathways well lived?

00:20:46.580 --> 00:20:47.540
<v Arnold Dix>Are they intuitive?

00:20:47.540 --> 00:20:48.471
<v Arnold Dix>Can they get out?

00:20:48.471 --> 00:20:50.181
<v Arnold Dix>Do the doors work, blah, blah, blah.

00:20:50.451 --> 00:20:57.453
<v Arnold Dix>So we get into this very interesting, discussion about how it is that we're gonna make it safe.

00:20:58.144 --> 00:21:05.020
<v Arnold Dix>And I think one of the risks that we run is we forget to stop and check the context of our tunnel.

00:21:05.050 --> 00:21:06.040
<v Arnold Dix>We become so.

00:21:06.596 --> 00:21:14.395
<v Arnold Dix>Passionate about our tunnel and looking after our tunnel, that we forget that the very people who use our tunnel have just coming off the street.

00:21:15.086 --> 00:21:16.586
<v Arnold Dix>How's the street out there.

00:21:17.336 --> 00:21:19.705
<v Arnold Dix>What's what's the lighting like out there for them.

00:21:19.945 --> 00:21:21.385
<v Arnold Dix>Is there snow on the road?

00:21:21.794 --> 00:21:26.148
<v Arnold Dix>has there been maintenance of the, of their, is the train okay.

00:21:26.209 --> 00:21:27.229
<v Arnold Dix>Has it been maintained?

00:21:27.229 --> 00:21:29.628
<v Arnold Dix>Like there's, there's a whole lot of other contextual things.

00:21:30.288 --> 00:21:31.566
<v Arnold Dix>So I think.

00:21:32.036 --> 00:21:48.838
<v Arnold Dix>As part of the new narrative as part of this requirement that we consider sustainable cities and communities and the responsible consumption, and production of everything from energy to equipment, to what have you.

00:21:49.558 --> 00:21:56.999
<v Arnold Dix>And as part of our commitment to good health and wellbeing, and as part of our commitment to, economic growth and these are.

00:21:58.163 --> 00:21:59.772
<v Arnold Dix>The sustainability development goals.

00:21:59.830 --> 00:22:01.661
<v Arnold Dix>I'm not just randomly picking them off.

00:22:01.661 --> 00:22:03.131
<v Arnold Dix>I mean, they're actually the goals.

00:22:04.361 --> 00:22:12.340
<v Arnold Dix>I think, I think we have to put things into context and be more willing to go safe enough.

00:22:12.760 --> 00:22:33.443
<v Arnold Dix>Not  as safe as we could make it, but safe enough because if we don't society loses because we divert disproportionately effort into our tunnel and we may achieve a higher level of safety, but in doing so, we demonstrably reduce the level of safety for our people else.

00:22:34.763 --> 00:22:38.634
<v Arnold Dix>And that's for me, that's the tension that we have to be, be mindful of.

00:22:38.634 --> 00:22:43.314
<v Arnold Dix>And, you know, I'm, I'm passionate about my, tunnel safety and my fire safety in my tunnels.

00:22:43.767 --> 00:22:51.580
<v Arnold Dix>and the example that I'd give for me, the absolute classic example here is, do we let dangerous goods in our tunnel?

00:22:52.671 --> 00:22:57.590
<v Arnold Dix>Are we gonna, whether it's rail tunnels or road tunnels or whatever tunnels do we let dangerous goods in.

00:22:57.971 --> 00:23:03.673
<v Arnold Dix>And for those of us who are technical people who just love tunnels, go to bed at night, dreaming about tunnels.

00:23:03.673 --> 00:23:11.411
<v Arnold Dix>You know, we have postcards of tunnels on our walls, you know, we're like, oh gosh, on holidays, I'd love to go and see that new tunnel in, Germany.

00:23:11.411 --> 00:23:12.310
<v Arnold Dix>Let me go have a look.

00:23:12.310 --> 00:23:15.911
<v Arnold Dix>Oh, it looks gorgeous for those of us who are into our tunnels.

00:23:16.726 --> 00:23:23.296
<v Arnold Dix>We very easily start to worship them as if they're just a God in their own.

00:23:23.296 --> 00:23:23.655
<v Arnold Dix>Right.

00:23:23.655 --> 00:23:27.226
<v Arnold Dix>There's some special thing, but they're not.

00:23:27.346 --> 00:23:37.336
<v Arnold Dix>They're part of a, a rich tapestry of social investment and infrastructure there to serve our people and there to serve the environment and with dangerous goods.

00:23:38.171 --> 00:23:56.814
<v Arnold Dix>Often, I think the risk is that if you stop the dangerous goods from going through tunnels, which otherwise could have dangerous goods, what you're really doing is you are subjecting to harm large numbers of people who are along the alternative roots.

00:23:57.192 --> 00:23:59.083
<v Arnold Dix>And you're not even letting them know.

00:23:59.083 --> 00:24:03.222
<v Arnold Dix>You're not, we are not saying, oh, by the way, it's cuz we love tunnels.

00:24:03.403 --> 00:24:04.932
<v Arnold Dix>We love tunnels more than you.

00:24:05.323 --> 00:24:13.272
<v Arnold Dix>Um, we're gonna send these dangerous goods up past your, uh, your school and past your hospital and where you live and what have you, when in fact.

00:24:14.532 --> 00:24:35.219
<v Arnold Dix>If we were being more holistic, if we were taking that new narrative approach of what's best for us as a people, and what's best for us as a planet, we'd probably say, put 'em through the tunnel, cuz actually the chances of something going wrong in the tunnel or less, because actually it's very well managed down there.

00:24:35.878 --> 00:24:41.189
<v Arnold Dix>We know our And in the unlikely event that something does go wrong.

00:24:41.608 --> 00:24:42.269
<v Arnold Dix>Yes.

00:24:42.808 --> 00:24:51.298
<v Arnold Dix>There's gonna be a disaster in the tunnel and yes, there's gonna be people injured and worse, but there's gonna be a lot less than if it was up on the surface.

00:24:51.512 --> 00:24:52.442
<v Arnold Dix>I think that's tough.

00:24:52.682 --> 00:24:58.803
<v Arnold Dix>I think that's, this is part of the challenge that I'm sort of raising for us as professionals around the world.

00:25:00.198 --> 00:25:09.827
<v Arnold Dix>To take a breath, almost like smell the flowers, like stop, have a little, think about what we do and ask ourselves.

00:25:10.127 --> 00:25:20.417
<v Arnold Dix>What's better for us as a collective, like the community, generally the environment actually, how can we use our tunnels better?

00:25:21.198 --> 00:25:22.577
<v Arnold Dix>And how do we communicate?

00:25:23.669 --> 00:25:29.219
<v Arnold Dix>I hope that's not too weird an answer, but I'm quite passionate about it, cuz it's not what you expect.

00:25:29.278 --> 00:25:30.328
<v Arnold Dix>Even the size.

00:25:30.328 --> 00:25:45.452
<v Arnold Dix>You said the size of the tunnel, even if you increase the size of the diameter of a tunnel by just a little bit, the area cross sectional area of a tunnel varies as PI squared, just a small increase in the radius.

00:25:45.992 --> 00:25:53.373
<v Arnold Dix>Causes a massive increase in the amount of material that has to be excavated and the amount of concrete to build So it's a

00:25:54.423 --> 00:25:54.663
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

00:25:54.843 --> 00:25:57.182
<v Arnold Dix>again, it's like where is engineers know that?

00:25:57.182 --> 00:25:59.432
<v Arnold Dix>Cuz we know the formulas, but.

00:25:59.542 --> 00:26:00.563
<v Arnold Dix>It's really easy to go.

00:26:00.563 --> 00:26:04.492
<v Arnold Dix>Oh, well just make it a bit bigger, cuz a bit bigger will be a bit safer.

00:26:04.823 --> 00:26:08.063
<v Arnold Dix>And then on the other hand, you go hang on, but a bit bigger.

00:26:08.452 --> 00:26:10.373
<v Arnold Dix>That'll increase our carbon footprint.

00:26:10.643 --> 00:26:22.942
<v Arnold Dix>Just say we increase, oh, I haven't got a calculator in front of me, but you know, a meter or two extra on the diameter of a tunnel might change the carbon footprint by a factor of 40%.

00:26:23.663 --> 00:26:31.421
<v Arnold Dix>it's just so huge because of that change to the, area of the, the, what has to be built, So fascinating in the detail.

00:26:31.935 --> 00:26:32.145
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

00:26:32.780 --> 00:26:39.113
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>On a recent project, we've changed the cross section of the tunnel by just changing the ventilation from transversal to longitudinal.

00:26:39.472 --> 00:26:51.712
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like we've proven to the guys that you not only get a simpler system, easier to maintain less scenarios, because it just stands on not having to pick up which, uh, part of the tunnel you have to extract the gases from.

00:26:51.712 --> 00:26:59.633
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so you, you cut off a, a whole bunch of, uh, systematic issues with, with it starting in the wrong place.

00:27:00.532 --> 00:27:01.413
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You also.

00:27:02.198 --> 00:27:06.907
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In some twisted way because you freed, uh, let's say two meters underneath your ceiling.

00:27:07.183 --> 00:27:17.193
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>During the evacuation phase, seven meter to tunnel gives you better evacuation chances than five meter tall tunnel with the transversal system, because it.

00:27:18.088 --> 00:27:25.449
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's it's insane how much it changes and, and here you would actually reduce the carbon footprint because suddenly you don't have to do mezzanine ceiling.

00:27:25.453 --> 00:27:33.848
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I, I don't mean we, we should turn all the tunnels from transversal to longitudinal because that's also not the case, but you have to be smart about it.

00:27:33.848 --> 00:27:39.232
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, Understand the consequences of the, technology use in the tunnel.

00:27:39.353 --> 00:27:41.002
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like we often go by the book.

00:27:41.008 --> 00:27:41.272
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:27:41.272 --> 00:27:44.002
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's 3000 meters and one long.

00:27:44.008 --> 00:27:46.133
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So it must be ventilated in this way.

00:27:46.492 --> 00:27:54.226
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I had this approach because as I said in a conference not long ago, please let engineers build the tunnels, not lawyers.

00:27:54.526 --> 00:27:57.226
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like you really don't want your lawyer to build your.

00:27:57.520 --> 00:28:12.230
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Infrastructure and here you've, also mentioned you may run out of resources, like if we're talking about, things in civil engineering, like fire protection of walls, and you have hundreds of buildings around your city being built.

00:28:12.794 --> 00:28:17.864
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not really that you're gonna run out of resources because each of them is funded independently and so on.

00:28:18.223 --> 00:28:24.733
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But when you're talking about a major city, like Warsaw that I live in, we have a certain budget.

00:28:24.733 --> 00:28:25.903
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The city has a certain budget.

00:28:26.653 --> 00:28:32.624
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If a tunnel costs us one 10th of the budget, it's a really tough decision.

00:28:32.624 --> 00:28:39.104
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Whether are we going to build the tunnel or are we going to make significant improvements in the healthcare and education in the city?

00:28:39.500 --> 00:28:41.230
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it's this kind of choice.

00:28:41.320 --> 00:28:46.576
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So in here spending the money reasonably is really.

00:28:46.644 --> 00:28:47.335
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Important.

00:28:47.994 --> 00:28:57.162
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I would like to go back to your dangerous goods because I think we also due to the way how projects work.

00:28:57.464 --> 00:29:01.974
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like you design the tunnel, you build the tunnel, you deliver the tunnel, then it's the client's problem.

00:29:02.355 --> 00:29:05.765
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't think we are involved enough.

00:29:05.928 --> 00:29:13.637
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>At the operational phase, like there is so much you can do with operational policies and good management.

00:29:14.208 --> 00:29:16.877
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I, I don't see really fire.

00:29:17.048 --> 00:29:20.837
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I, I know plenty of fire engineers who design tunnels.

00:29:21.258 --> 00:29:28.097
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I don't know a single one who would be managing the tunnel or who be involved in building operational polices.

00:29:28.577 --> 00:29:32.657
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>In their, agency, whichever that is that, that governs the tunnels.

00:29:34.218 --> 00:29:35.538
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>like the decision.

00:29:35.538 --> 00:29:37.758
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Do we let dangerous goods into the tunnel?

00:29:37.998 --> 00:29:42.347
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It doesn't have to be taken by me today for the next a hundred years.

00:29:42.678 --> 00:29:43.637
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It can evolve.

00:29:43.667 --> 00:29:46.714
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It can, adapt to the environment.

00:29:46.882 --> 00:29:47.902
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>it can change.

00:29:47.902 --> 00:29:51.652
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I, I think it's a beautiful opportunity for the sustainable goals.

00:29:51.652 --> 00:29:54.892
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>As you mentioned, we thes are intergenerational.

00:29:54.892 --> 00:29:56.211
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We also have the legacy.

00:29:56.650 --> 00:30:01.079
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>of hundred kilometers of tunnels that were built by our grandparents.

00:30:01.079 --> 00:30:03.539
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, we can use them, we can up upgrade them.

00:30:03.539 --> 00:30:05.012
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We can use them better.

00:30:05.282 --> 00:30:15.423
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I think our involvement should expand beyond the design stage or, or the delivery stage into the whole life cycle of the infrastructure.

00:30:16.008 --> 00:30:18.228
<v Arnold Dix>I'm your new best friend, if this is what you're thinking.

00:30:18.438 --> 00:30:19.292
<v Arnold Dix>Cause Yeah.

00:30:19.458 --> 00:30:19.847
<v Arnold Dix>absolutely.

00:30:20.238 --> 00:30:25.458
<v Arnold Dix>Um, I think fire engineers are like cloistered sort of religious people.

00:30:25.607 --> 00:30:37.238
<v Arnold Dix>If you could just let them out and experience the, the push and shove of day to day operations and the challenges of refurbishment and,, responding to the, the needs.

00:30:37.663 --> 00:30:40.298
<v Arnold Dix>industrial social needs as they change in time.

00:30:40.718 --> 00:30:43.748
<v Arnold Dix>I think your fire engineers have a much more exciting job.

00:30:43.748 --> 00:30:50.167
<v Arnold Dix>I know for me getting away from just the design, like you were talking about before, what does it say?

00:30:50.167 --> 00:30:51.067
<v Arnold Dix>According to the book?

00:30:51.067 --> 00:30:54.097
<v Arnold Dix>Oh, it's over 3000 meters, 3001.

00:30:54.097 --> 00:30:55.268
<v Arnold Dix>Therefore we've gotta do this.

00:30:55.688 --> 00:30:56.288
<v Arnold Dix>Well, we've gotta do that.

00:30:56.288 --> 00:30:58.417
<v Arnold Dix>That's that's the lowest.

00:30:59.377 --> 00:31:00.428
<v Arnold Dix>Fire engineering.

00:31:00.518 --> 00:31:03.008
<v Arnold Dix>That's it's fact it's not even really fire engineering.

00:31:03.008 --> 00:31:05.887
<v Arnold Dix>It's more like cooking cakes from a recipe book or something.

00:31:05.948 --> 00:31:07.627
<v Arnold Dix>It's just, that's just horrible.

00:31:07.867 --> 00:31:22.367
<v Arnold Dix>But, but like you say, if you can take advantage of smoke reservoirs within an underground cross section, which is what we were talking about before, but not using the term, this is fantastic because they just work.

00:31:22.772 --> 00:31:24.873
<v Arnold Dix>Like they work, the reservoir works.

00:31:24.873 --> 00:31:27.663
<v Arnold Dix>We've got, you know, we've got heat, we've got, buoyant smoke.

00:31:27.992 --> 00:31:33.487
<v Arnold Dix>We now have got, a window, an envelope of safety by virtue of the volume of the tunnel.

00:31:33.636 --> 00:31:34.537
<v Arnold Dix>You're a hundred percent.

00:31:34.537 --> 00:31:34.957
<v Arnold Dix>Right.

00:31:35.406 --> 00:31:40.416
<v Arnold Dix>And yet I only see that recognized in some of the international standards.

00:31:40.450 --> 00:31:44.079
<v Arnold Dix>it's something that is included in NFPA 5 0 2.

00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:44.500
<v Arnold Dix>I know.

00:31:44.500 --> 00:31:45.220
<v Arnold Dix>Cause I put it in.

00:31:45.654 --> 00:31:48.714
<v Arnold Dix>Well, I mean, I put up the proposal got voted up.

00:31:49.015 --> 00:31:53.704
<v Arnold Dix>Um, but, I personally O fellow fire engineers out there.

00:31:54.005 --> 00:31:59.634
<v Arnold Dix>I love passive fire engineering because it just works so voids.

00:32:00.394 --> 00:32:01.144
<v Arnold Dix>I love them.

00:32:01.325 --> 00:32:02.556
<v Arnold Dix>I really like it.

00:32:02.714 --> 00:32:05.877
<v Arnold Dix>If you can have, passive vent as well.

00:32:06.057 --> 00:32:10.347
<v Arnold Dix>Um, I was involved with a, a railway tunnel where we can't leave at the roof.

00:32:10.678 --> 00:32:21.268
<v Arnold Dix>It was a cut and cover intersection, so that the bigger the fire, the greater the tunnel naturally ventilated itself using its own buoyancy.

00:32:21.298 --> 00:32:33.442
<v Arnold Dix>Well, the buoyancy affected the combustion products and you could model it and shock horror, the bigger the fire, the better it worked And I think fire engineers want to be liberated from this code nonsense.

00:32:33.772 --> 00:32:46.047
<v Arnold Dix>It's a good start, but get into some really serious engineering, which, they can do when they get into the operational realm and the operators need us to do it as well.

00:32:46.257 --> 00:32:49.946
<v Arnold Dix>Otherwise our concepts don't make sense for the operators.

00:32:51.211 --> 00:32:57.271
<v Arnold Dix>They end up having some weird system with a set of manuals on how to use it.

00:32:57.277 --> 00:32:59.132
<v Arnold Dix>That don't make sense for them as an operator.

00:32:59.192 --> 00:33:05.900
<v Arnold Dix>They might make sense for us as we get all excited about, know, roughness coefficients or.

00:33:05.984 --> 00:33:11.265
<v Arnold Dix>buoyancy criteria or Reynolds numbers or something, but, but they want the practicality.

00:33:11.265 --> 00:33:12.765
<v Arnold Dix>So now I'm, I'm with you.

00:33:12.795 --> 00:33:18.255
<v Arnold Dix>Um, let's get the fire engineering into the practice of refurbishment.

00:33:18.315 --> 00:33:19.305
<v Arnold Dix>Optimizing.

00:33:19.515 --> 00:33:21.345
<v Arnold Dix>What more can we do with this tunnel?

00:33:21.345 --> 00:33:22.214
<v Arnold Dix>How could we do it?

00:33:22.214 --> 00:33:22.575
<v Arnold Dix>Better?

00:33:23.115 --> 00:33:25.974
<v Arnold Dix>Creativity, adjustment, all that sort of thing.

00:33:26.325 --> 00:33:28.214
<v Arnold Dix>The stuff we engineers love to do.

00:33:28.767 --> 00:33:31.436
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And it it's very rewarding.

00:33:31.692 --> 00:33:37.136
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I'm building a relation with the managers of the tunnel in also that we have been involved in the design.

00:33:37.136 --> 00:33:39.567
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We have been involved in, in delivering commissioning.

00:33:39.926 --> 00:33:43.603
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Now, now I'm, trying to stay in touch with the people who manage the tunnel.

00:33:44.022 --> 00:33:47.002
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, we did some solutions there, like, we did a.

00:33:47.212 --> 00:33:49.583
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Actually, I'm gonna tell you a full story.

00:33:49.874 --> 00:33:56.823
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So we have realized that every bad thing that happens in the tunnel starts with a stopped vehicle.

00:33:57.212 --> 00:33:58.833
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like you cannot have a fire.

00:33:59.282 --> 00:34:02.432
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If a vehicle has not stopped in the tunnel, cause it's not there anymore.

00:34:02.673 --> 00:34:04.383
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You cannot have an accident in the tunnel.

00:34:04.712 --> 00:34:08.289
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If the vehicles are still moving and driving out of the tunnel.

00:34:08.769 --> 00:34:13.592
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So Every bad scenario in its Evans tree would have a vehicle has stopped at some point.

00:34:14.431 --> 00:34:26.188
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So we've realized that, okay, the, the number one issue with delivering safety in our project is the vulnerability of the tunnel to the flows caused by the atmosphere, by the cars.

00:34:26.188 --> 00:34:29.998
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>When we start the ventilation, it takes few minutes to control them.

00:34:30.748 --> 00:34:39.927
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>in your simulation, you're very nice because in your time zero, you have flow equals zero, and then you study having your fantastic B and plume.

00:34:40.318 --> 00:34:44.608
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>But if you're in a tunnel, that's operational, you know, that the flow is not zero in there.

00:34:45.512 --> 00:34:47.007
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>very, very not zero.

00:34:47.351 --> 00:34:48.251
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so we should go like, okay.

00:34:48.311 --> 00:34:54.581
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So if the first thing happening is, is the vehicle that stops and we have cameras that can detect.

00:34:55.347 --> 00:34:57.777
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Let's just start the ventilation, the moment, a vehicle stop there.

00:34:58.226 --> 00:35:03.476
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like not, not in, maybe not in fire mode, but let's start at least some sanitary mode ventilation that would stop the flow.

00:35:04.056 --> 00:35:11.050
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and it would build, you know, this, background for, for good operation of the, of the fire mode, if it will be necessary.

00:35:11.349 --> 00:35:13.952
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And if not, just turn it off and go on with your life.

00:35:14.463 --> 00:35:19.833
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And we were very proud with this because it's very simple and robust solution in, in our mind, but.

00:35:20.204 --> 00:35:34.788
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I talk with the operational guys on the tunnel and they say, yeah, but you know, our biggest problem now is to, to continuously monitor that because people stop there to pee in the tunnel, which I don't really understand as a concept, but they do.

00:35:34.998 --> 00:35:35.974
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, we.

00:35:36.210 --> 00:35:39.387
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This triggers the system 10, 20 times a day.

00:35:40.068 --> 00:35:45.148
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, and, and it causes stress in them because every time they have to check it, what's happening.

00:35:45.447 --> 00:35:49.378
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The citizens around are complaining because the fans are loud and stuff like that.

00:35:49.858 --> 00:35:54.391
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And they're like, okay, well, it's not really helpful at this point.

00:35:55.021 --> 00:35:55.563
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And.

00:35:55.590 --> 00:36:03.809
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If I just been there in the design phase, I like, I would be happy with my, with my design, that in my head was brilliant.

00:36:04.139 --> 00:36:08.699
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>They would be happy because they just turn it off and they  go on with their lives.

00:36:08.699 --> 00:36:20.518
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And it's not annoying for them, but here I, have this sense, maybe not of a failure, but an opportunity to make it better, because from my perspective, what I wanted to achieve, Was to control the flow in the tunnel.

00:36:20.818 --> 00:36:22.318
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So maybe I don't need the extraction.

00:36:22.318 --> 00:36:25.612
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Maybe I just need the jet fans to operate and we'll achieve the same goal.

00:36:25.617 --> 00:36:35.188
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So we're, we're gonna modify it now, but it was not me and my personal relation with the management guys in there, trying to talk with them, like, okay, how does it work for you?

00:36:35.217 --> 00:36:37.385
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Is it, convenient for you to be used?

00:36:37.744 --> 00:36:40.324
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Do you see problems with the system?

00:36:40.445 --> 00:36:44.795
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I was not really asking about this particular feature of the system, but general, do you see.

00:36:45.244 --> 00:36:52.605
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>User problems with the system that can be solved if it was not that, the design would not really work.

00:36:52.655 --> 00:37:01.565
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so you need an engineer over the life because in, in the end, if you design a fancy system, but it, it is being turned off.

00:37:02.224 --> 00:37:04.534
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It, it was a shitty system to start with,

00:37:04.864 --> 00:37:06.304
<v Arnold Dix>Look, it's really interesting.

00:37:06.304 --> 00:37:10.655
<v Arnold Dix>You've had that experience, what we are seeing around the world at the moment, and it might be this.

00:37:10.775 --> 00:37:28.302
<v Arnold Dix>So I'm really curious as to your answer, is lay eyes, breakdown, lanes, even big shoulders are increasingly used as places to stop and pee, have a picnic, join the, I don't know, making babies in the tunnel club or whatever it is you want to want to do.

00:37:29.442 --> 00:37:31.121
<v Arnold Dix>Yeah, make the nice picture.

00:37:31.476 --> 00:37:46.465
<v Arnold Dix>and we are seeing a trend towards not having shoulders anymore, not having breakdown bays, but relying more on the intelligent, detection systems for what's happening in the tunnel and turning every lane into an emergency lane.

00:37:46.494 --> 00:37:51.534
<v Arnold Dix>So if you've got a vehicle which stopped, then you stop all the, like you close that lane.

00:37:51.894 --> 00:37:53.934
<v Arnold Dix>And that seems to be reducing.

00:37:54.264 --> 00:37:58.855
<v Arnold Dix>What you've just described, which is the people starting to have a P all, all the rest of it.

00:37:59.447 --> 00:38:02.485
<v Arnold Dix>but it, it is an international phenomenon.

00:38:02.485 --> 00:38:03.385
<v Arnold Dix>This people not.

00:38:04.045 --> 00:38:12.534
<v Arnold Dix>Not recognizing that stopping in a tunnel is inherently incredibly dangerous because from a fire and life safety point of view, exactly.

00:38:12.539 --> 00:38:26.605
<v Arnold Dix>As you say, it's the stopped vehicle that's most likely to cause the problem, even if it's not on fire, because guess what, when it tries to merge now back out into the traffic, the probability of a collision occurring is now much greater as well.

00:38:27.114 --> 00:38:27.925
<v Arnold Dix>Uh, so.

00:38:28.414 --> 00:38:33.094
<v Arnold Dix>I think it's a great example that you raise and it's, it's highlighting.

00:38:33.094 --> 00:38:46.054
<v Arnold Dix>This is a real moving target and a moving target for the fire engineers who have to be partly transportation engineers who have to be partly human factor engineers who have to have a knowledge of system engineering as well.

00:38:46.385 --> 00:38:51.244
<v Arnold Dix>It's just really, um, mission critical stuff you're talking about.

00:38:51.961 --> 00:38:55.217
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, now for the end, I'm gonna ask you like really, really

00:38:55.367 --> 00:38:57.047
<v Arnold Dix>You've already asked me tough questions.

00:38:57.347 --> 00:38:58.248
<v Arnold Dix>you're gonna ask more

00:38:58.458 --> 00:39:00.105
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>No, this these were like warm up.

00:39:00.105 --> 00:39:01.184
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>These were easy questions.

00:39:01.335 --> 00:39:02.385
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like these were fun.

00:39:02.775 --> 00:39:05.264
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>This were, these were fun questions,

00:39:05.315 --> 00:39:06.244
<v Arnold Dix>I'll brace myself.

00:39:06.338 --> 00:39:06.637
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>now.

00:39:07.387 --> 00:39:07.717
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Yeah.

00:39:08.077 --> 00:39:09.728
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, I have this challenge.

00:39:09.751 --> 00:39:17.875
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I work road tunnels are fun, but I'm also involved a lot in, in railway tunnels and in railway tunnels.

00:39:17.902 --> 00:39:35.875
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We often deal with the assumption that it needs to the train needs to reach the place of safety, being a station or some dedicated space where we can, extract smoke, extract people, but we're still, we still have to design the systems, life safety systems, ventilation, and so on for the tunnel itself.

00:39:36.021 --> 00:39:37.552
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>when the train stops in in it.

00:39:38.181 --> 00:39:39.804
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I'm in a really.

00:39:39.867 --> 00:39:54.461
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Tough position, how to communicate to my stakeholders, that if you allow trained to stop in the middle of a tunnel, and you have longitudinal system because you like Transvaal system in a relay railway would be crazy to be honest.

00:39:54.927 --> 00:39:58.974
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>the survival of the person is in, at large governed by chance.

00:39:59.065 --> 00:40:03.594
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like it, it depends where you are, where the fire is and where the ventilation is.

00:40:04.045 --> 00:40:09.445
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you're on the correct side, you're pretty good because you're gonna end up in a safe space.

00:40:09.474 --> 00:40:11.514
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you're on the wrong side, there's a good chance.

00:40:11.514 --> 00:40:13.385
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You'll be overwhelmed with smoke.

00:40:13.894 --> 00:40:19.085
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I, I find these discussions really, really difficult.

00:40:19.443 --> 00:40:22.112
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>On the other end, I feel helpless.

00:40:22.233 --> 00:40:23.612
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Like that's the physics.

00:40:23.762 --> 00:40:27.242
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There is not much I can do about it.

00:40:27.992 --> 00:40:33.980
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, so far we get with like, Some sort of risk analysis that can demonstrate that the risk is low.

00:40:34.280 --> 00:40:36.769
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You know, the probability of a failure of train is very low.

00:40:36.769 --> 00:40:38.809
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The probability of a fire is even lower.

00:40:39.110 --> 00:40:48.900
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So you, we are talking about inherently, very exotic given that that would happen and most likely will not in a thousand years, but still you're dealing with a politician for a politician.

00:40:48.900 --> 00:40:53.159
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's never okay to say, okay, well I'm okay with, with like, if the train stops, someone dies there.

00:40:53.489 --> 00:40:54.809
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So how to.

00:40:54.815 --> 00:41:08.967
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Communicate that, risk, how to work out as solutions with, with non-fire stakeholders when you are essentially given a, a problem that you cannot solve, or maybe no a solution  I would love to

00:41:09.038 --> 00:41:10.358
<v Arnold Dix>The answer's 12.

00:41:10.387 --> 00:41:12.668
<v Arnold Dix>Of course that's a, it's a numerical answer of 12.

00:41:13.117 --> 00:41:43.568
<v Arnold Dix>No, I'm I'm um, You've again, this, this is a really tough question because it highlights a difference between the mental models that we use as scientists and engineers, to engineer, and to manage risk in terms of the activity of being on a train in an underground Metro system, and how we, we deal with it and the common narrative amongst people, which is well, when it happens.

00:41:44.242 --> 00:41:45.143
<v Arnold Dix>Is it safe?

00:41:46.103 --> 00:41:48.382
<v Arnold Dix>and you're like, well, hang on a minute.

00:41:48.563 --> 00:41:49.612
<v Arnold Dix>That's the wrong question.

00:41:49.612 --> 00:41:56.782
<v Arnold Dix>Cuz when it happens, it's not gonna happen because it doesn't happen because we know it doesn't happen because that's what we engineers know about.

00:41:57.483 --> 00:42:05.853
<v Arnold Dix>I don't think there's a simple answer, but it does get back to this a again, I think the sustainability.

00:42:06.288 --> 00:42:16.248
<v Arnold Dix>Argument where you, you have to accept that in everything we do, there's a residual level of risk, just, just by virtue of being.

00:42:16.248 --> 00:42:20.927
<v Arnold Dix>And, and I mean, gosh, as, as fire engineers, we know about it, it's called oxidation.

00:42:21.322 --> 00:42:26.807
<v Arnold Dix>like, everything is always a slight breath away from being oxidized and

00:42:27.003 --> 00:42:30.579
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If, if a oxidates slow it's not our problem.

00:42:30.579 --> 00:42:33.099
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's rusting, but if you oxidate very

00:42:33.280 --> 00:42:33.789
<v Track 2>our problem.

00:42:34.059 --> 00:42:34.510
<v Arnold Dix>Yeah.

00:42:34.570 --> 00:42:41.949
<v Arnold Dix>And, you know, and you say to someone say we're discussing tenability and you say, well, actually there's an oxidation reaction occurring in our lungs.

00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:45.909
<v Arnold Dix>And so long as that's occurring at about the right weight rate, we're fine.

00:42:45.909 --> 00:42:50.019
<v Arnold Dix>But if we get a bit on the wrong side of the curve, we asphyxiate and die.

00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:50.380
<v Arnold Dix>Right.

00:42:50.530 --> 00:42:53.289
<v Arnold Dix>It's just, it's a, it's an oxidation question.

00:42:53.650 --> 00:42:56.769
<v Arnold Dix>And also obviously a gas exchange question, but.

00:42:57.235 --> 00:43:02.514
<v Arnold Dix>I think we're in a really strong position with metros right now in the world.

00:43:03.114 --> 00:43:08.635
<v Arnold Dix>And the reason we're in a really strong position is right now, the numbers are clear.

00:43:09.460 --> 00:43:16.239
<v Arnold Dix>We've got a huge explosion, no pun intended in the number of metros operating around the world.

00:43:16.239 --> 00:43:27.489
<v Arnold Dix>There are billions of passenger journeys occurring all the time with them and they're not catching on fire and they're not stopping in and people aren't dying.

00:43:27.550 --> 00:43:27.789
<v Arnold Dix>Now.

00:43:27.789 --> 00:43:30.023
<v Arnold Dix>It doesn't mean that there won't be an event.

00:43:30.052 --> 00:43:36.387
<v Arnold Dix>Of course, there might be an event and mathematically with so many billions of journeys occurring, it might occur.

00:43:37.166 --> 00:43:49.737
<v Arnold Dix>But so long as we, as engineers and the allied professionals maintain our rigorous approach to all things underground rail.

00:43:50.277 --> 00:44:00.686
<v Arnold Dix>And that is from the reliability of the containery system, the signaling system, the, the rolling stock, the way we section.

00:44:00.947 --> 00:44:14.606
<v Arnold Dix>The power, the way we, timetable the way we build the rolling stock, the way we isolate our traction systems from the areas in, in the carriages where the people are so long as there's redundancy in the traction systems themselves.

00:44:14.606 --> 00:44:28.570
<v Arnold Dix>So long as the, the grades, the, you know, we, if we, the materials, auditing to confirm the, and to verify the performance of the, the wiring to, Confirm and verify the performance, the materials in the seating.

00:44:28.840 --> 00:44:37.599
<v Arnold Dix>So long as we've still got the vigilance over attending the railway system so long as people aren't allowed to take their barbecues and cook sausages on the trains while they're driving them.

00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:49.090
<v Arnold Dix>Like so long as that incredibly complicated total engineering system, which we do so well so long as we continue to do it.

00:44:49.090 --> 00:44:49.869
<v Arnold Dix>So well.

00:44:50.206 --> 00:45:15.246
<v Arnold Dix>And I don't see any reason why we shouldn't continue to do it so well then for me, the theoretical event of a fire on a disabled train, in a tunnel with longitudinal ventilation, where some of the passengers of that train are upstream of the ignition point, the combustion point, and therefore we'll be exposed to a non tenable environment and therefore will die.

00:45:15.612 --> 00:45:24.641
<v Arnold Dix>Because they've got no option that is such an infinitesimally, small risk and demonstrably, so that it's okay.

00:45:25.512 --> 00:45:32.307
<v Arnold Dix>And, and if it's not okay, then I think this is where having the narrative on board to talk about what it means.

00:45:32.307 --> 00:45:37.137
<v Arnold Dix>If that's not okay, then maybe we can't afford to build a Metro anymore,

00:45:37.449 --> 00:45:43.480
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I love your answer because it's more or less like do your best job at doing, looking into the new ventilation, reach the goals of the system.

00:45:43.806 --> 00:45:50.592
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>and, not over design it five times because you need to provide safety in, in the most accurate, uh, situation.

00:45:51.072 --> 00:45:52.025
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I agree.

00:45:52.594 --> 00:46:05.204
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I also don't see a way out of this problem, of this conundrum, but to rely on all the other aspects of the, of the safety system, you've mentioned minus the grilling, I, I would not

00:46:05.219 --> 00:46:05.519
<v Track 2>Yeah.

00:46:05.610 --> 00:46:05.820
<v Track 2>Yeah.

00:46:06.255 --> 00:46:08.474
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>in the trade, , but, uh, but, but you're right.

00:46:08.744 --> 00:46:10.021
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And, to understand that.

00:46:10.702 --> 00:46:12.652
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You have to look from the top.

00:46:12.652 --> 00:46:14.242
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You need to have a bird's eye view.

00:46:14.242 --> 00:46:15.862
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You need to have a holistic view.

00:46:15.862 --> 00:46:16.521
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's nice.

00:46:16.882 --> 00:46:19.402
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's a nice and popular world lately, but it is.

00:46:19.672 --> 00:46:30.322
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>You need to, if you look only on providing safety through the lens of the, of the smoke control system, you are going to have a bad time because you are set to fail.

00:46:30.351 --> 00:46:48.757
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There literally is no way for you to achieve the goals of your system and Provide ultimate safety, whatever that is only through systematic thinking and, and, spurs eye view on the problem, you can find an answer that it actually may be alright because the numbers are there.

00:46:49.086 --> 00:46:54.606
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There is no systematic inherent, huge risk of that occurring.

00:46:55.536 --> 00:46:57.547
<v Arnold Dix>think the trick is remaining vigilant.

00:46:57.980 --> 00:47:12.619
<v Arnold Dix>so from fire engineering point of view, I I'd say, and this is where your point before about the fire engineers coming out to the world of, uh, operational regime as a fire engineer, get into the operational railway and be the voice.

00:47:13.204 --> 00:47:26.275
<v Arnold Dix>Of fire engineering and saying everybody, we do have to check the cables in our rolling stock to make sure they're still performing in accordance with their, say volatile, generation in the event of a fire.

00:47:26.485 --> 00:47:31.914
<v Arnold Dix>We still have to check that our upholstery is performing in the way that expected.

00:47:31.914 --> 00:47:36.565
<v Arnold Dix>We still should challenge, like do some fire tests in real rolling stock.

00:47:36.565 --> 00:47:39.864
<v Arnold Dix>Say we have a, you know, some old rolling stock that we are retiring.

00:47:40.445 --> 00:47:42.394
<v Arnold Dix>Volunteer it for some fire tests.

00:47:42.394 --> 00:47:56.157
<v Arnold Dix>Let's just double check and see if at year 20, it's still performing as it was at year one, or what have you, I think, and, and that's for me, that's what the fire engineers of today and moving forward have gotta do.

00:47:56.157 --> 00:48:00.748
<v Arnold Dix>They've gotta, almost be the, the challenge team reminding.

00:48:00.858 --> 00:48:09.557
<v Arnold Dix>The somewhat complacent organization, that there's a very high level of fire engineering sitting in behind this network that makes it so safe.

00:48:09.887 --> 00:48:18.097
<v Arnold Dix>And you shouldn't assume that nothing's changed, actually challenge it, check it, make sure everything is still performing as, as expected.

00:48:18.523 --> 00:48:22.981
<v Arnold Dix>I had a case where the cleaning fluids that were being used for upholstery.

00:48:23.387 --> 00:48:35.237
<v Arnold Dix>In some existing rolling actually decreased the fire performance of that material and basically converted fire hard and rolling stock into, into sort of fireworks.

00:48:35.817 --> 00:48:38.797
<v Arnold Dix>and so there's, you know, a case where the devils,

00:48:39.206 --> 00:48:41.427
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's not something you would, you would to think about.

00:48:41.427 --> 00:48:42.177
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It's not something you would

00:48:42.387 --> 00:48:42.606
<v Arnold Dix>No.

00:48:43.257 --> 00:48:43.527
<v Arnold Dix>No.

00:48:43.527 --> 00:48:50.907
<v Arnold Dix>And, that's where I think for your, for your listeners as fire engineers and careers, long term careers.

00:48:51.822 --> 00:49:08.771
<v Arnold Dix>Entwining themselves within operational regimes of infrastructure and continually stressing and rechecking, those design presumptions that they would've veil or the generations of fire engineers before them, would've plugged into the design concept and yeah.

00:49:08.777 --> 00:49:15.485
<v Arnold Dix>Challenge what's changed, one thing that I've noticed lately, I dunno about in your country, but I've seen it in a couple of countries.

00:49:16.070 --> 00:49:24.146
<v Arnold Dix>Is the, availability of high temperature, personal tortures, these little flame generating devices.

00:49:24.416 --> 00:49:35.427
<v Arnold Dix>So you like a, a person who wants to commit an antisocial act can actually get about a six or 700 degree flame just by a little thing that they're carrying in their pocket.

00:49:36.117 --> 00:49:37.117
<v Arnold Dix>There's a change.

00:49:38.052 --> 00:49:53.952
<v Arnold Dix>When we did our fire engineering, we were expecting a crib with some, a cellular fire with a newspaper, but, but you know, maybe the latest generation of antisocial, person's got a, a 600 sea torch sitting in his pocket or her pocket or its pocket.

00:49:54.371 --> 00:49:57.132
<v Arnold Dix>And they're gonna give a bit of a tickle to our rolling stock.

00:49:58.211 --> 00:50:04.434
<v Arnold Dix>How awesome is that in terms of as a fire engineer, moving forward with the challenges of this millennium?

00:50:04.945 --> 00:50:07.135
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that's the arsonist daily podcast though.

00:50:07.465 --> 00:50:07.735
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's

00:50:07.855 --> 00:50:08.125
<v Arnold Dix>Yeah.

00:50:08.815 --> 00:50:11.304
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>the improvements in the, in the arson technology.

00:50:11.965 --> 00:50:12.204
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Okay.

00:50:12.204 --> 00:50:17.605
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Arnold, Arnold, I I've intended so much more for, for this interview, which means we need to book a part too.

00:50:18.400 --> 00:50:26.260
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Which will dwell on Elon Musk Hyperloops and, um, maybe the line city concept of, of Saudi Arabia, which is based around the tunnel.

00:50:26.260 --> 00:50:29.469
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So I, I would love to book  parts too.

00:50:30.010 --> 00:50:30.849
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Anyways.

00:50:31.190 --> 00:50:37.769
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I would like to summarize, this to the listeners and, and just find the number one.

00:50:38.385 --> 00:50:48.438
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Learning point, from, from today, for me, the learning point is, I, I think this operational thing would be the number one, like.

00:50:49.092 --> 00:51:01.657
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If tunnels are intergenerational, if tunnels are going to outlive its designers, maybe it's their operators who should be more educated in, in fire safety and for fire safety engineers.

00:51:01.657 --> 00:51:07.597
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>There's a whole world to discover in the operational side where we can really shine.

00:51:07.708 --> 00:51:09.704
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>that's a bright lesson a very positive.

00:51:10.594 --> 00:51:12.382
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>so what would be your final

00:51:12.603 --> 00:51:13.592
<v Arnold Dix>No, I love it.

00:51:13.833 --> 00:51:15.003
<v Arnold Dix>I, I think you're right.

00:51:15.242 --> 00:51:18.182
<v Arnold Dix>And for the fire engineers, isn't that awesome.

00:51:18.362 --> 00:51:19.682
<v Arnold Dix>So what your.

00:51:19.972 --> 00:51:21.172
<v Arnold Dix>What you've just realized.

00:51:21.472 --> 00:51:40.273
<v Arnold Dix>And what we've explored is for the fire engine engineers, the design is just the beginning and in this intergenerational world, intergenerational infrastructure, the future challenges are, I mean, they're almost boundless and the fire engineers need to step in, in there and do their thing.

00:51:40.273 --> 00:51:41.322
<v Arnold Dix>I think it's wonderful.

00:51:41.382 --> 00:51:43.693
<v Arnold Dix>And a, a wonderful observation of yours.

00:51:43.914 --> 00:51:44.275
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thanks.

00:51:45.744 --> 00:51:53.251
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Well, thank thank you for, for relating me to that and what, what the journey it was from, from the sustainability to operational procedures.

00:51:53.461 --> 00:52:00.211
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I told you we're gonna start with sustainability and no one knows where we'll end  so, but we've reach, we've reached a nice end.

00:52:00.465 --> 00:52:04.382
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Arnold, thank you so much, for coming into the show and I really.

00:52:04.847 --> 00:52:13.960
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I really hope, uh, to see you here again and, at the end, congratulations for, for your significant achievements, the, the presidency of ITTA.

00:52:13.989 --> 00:52:16.900
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>That's, that's amazing, man, that that's, that's fantastic.

00:52:17.289 --> 00:52:20.619
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The award from NFP for lifetime contributions to the standards.

00:52:21.070 --> 00:52:22.869
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank, thank you so much for all you're doing today.

00:52:23.175 --> 00:52:31.268
<v Arnold Dix>Thank you and, and thank you for your love of all things, fire and life safety and, operational operational safety for these things we build.

00:52:31.268 --> 00:52:32.018
<v Arnold Dix>Fantastic.

00:52:32.018 --> 00:52:32.858
<v Arnold Dix>Thanks for having me.

00:52:32.947 --> 00:52:33.728
<v Arnold Dix>It's been awesome.

00:52:34.170 --> 00:52:34.980
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you so much.

00:52:35.105 --> 00:52:35.735
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And that's it.

00:52:35.735 --> 00:52:47.614
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Thank you for listening to the part, one of the interview with Arnold, it was such a fun and, uh, such an interesting, thing to discover the opportunities lying within the operational regime of tunnels.

00:52:47.972 --> 00:52:51.782
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>I think it's a really great world of opportunities for fire engineers.

00:52:51.782 --> 00:53:04.681
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And if we can start building relations with our investors, with our authorities, with tunnel management, with tunnel operators, it's opening a new world of career choices, even.

00:53:04.681 --> 00:53:07.112
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, so I think it's really worth pursuing that.

00:53:07.501 --> 00:53:12.842
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And on top of that, the whole sustainability that was in the back end of this episode, it is important.

00:53:12.902 --> 00:53:16.081
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>It is very important to communicate.

00:53:16.331 --> 00:53:24.851
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>With this sustainability goals in mind, because otherwise you will not get listened to if you don't speak the same language as everyone does.

00:53:24.851 --> 00:53:31.541
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Now, if we stick to our safety engineering language, we will not deliver safety.

00:53:31.547 --> 00:53:34.782
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We'll not engineer safety because we'll not be given a chance.

00:53:34.961 --> 00:53:36.521
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>We need to learn to talk.

00:53:36.521 --> 00:53:46.612
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>The talk as Arnold said, And as I've mentioned in the intro to the episode, this is a two part episode, the next one's coming your way next week.

00:53:46.612 --> 00:53:52.461
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And it's full of interesting new technologies and challenges that lie within them.

00:53:52.762 --> 00:53:55.025
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So, that's something you don't want to miss.

00:53:55.030 --> 00:54:01.554
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>If you listen that long, this episode, I am a hundred percent sure you really want to listen the next one.

00:54:01.795 --> 00:54:04.195
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>And I'm looking forward to that as well.

00:54:04.224 --> 00:54:06.925
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>So see you here again next Wednesday.

00:54:06.985 --> 00:54:07.525
<v Wojciech Wegrzynski>Cheers.