Deathless Zen: Sati, Satori, & the Koan of Cessation | Stephen Mugen Snyder, Roshi Q&A

[music]
Welcome to Clear Mountain on Wednesdays.
Uh this evening we're very happy to have
Muggan Roshi Steven Snider with us.
Muggan, thanks so much for joining us.
>> Yeah, thanks for having me. I'll just
read a quick bio for those of you who
don't yet know Mugan Roshi. So Stephen
Mugan Snider Roshi began practicing
daily meditation in 1976.
Since then he has studied Buddhism
extensively investigating and engaging
in Zen, Tibetan, Terravada and Western
non-dual traditions. He was authorized
to teach in the Terraata Buddhist
tradition in 2007 with Paul Oxida and
the Zen Buddhist schools of Sto and
Rinszai in 2022.
Muggan is a senior student of Roshi
Marando Minenberg and a transmitted
teacher in the white plum asa the body
of teachers in the Mumu Roshi lineage.
Rugan is the author of five books
including Liberating the Self,
Demystifying Awakening, The Buddhist
Heart, and he co-authored Practicing the
Jas.
So, yeah, Mukin, I'm curious if you
could go a bit more into that last book
we named, the practicing the Janna. This
is your account and kind of making the
Pok system of meditation a bit more
western friendly. So um yeah could you
talk about your experience since you
know we're terra monks most of our
people are often familiar with the
language of terravada and many people
know pak but maybe not necessarily know
what's involved in in that meditation
system extensively so
>> sure I uh I did a retreat a two-month
retreat with pock in 2004
and had at that time there was really no
books in English Sean John or virtually
none. So we had his book Knowing and
Seeing which we could download offline
which was like a big city phone book. It
was a gigantic book and I couldn't make
too much sense out of it. It was very
complicated and technical. But going on
the retreat uh I just found that one of
the skill sets I developed in my years
of Zen practice was uh holding uh
effectively 247.
And so when Pollock said, "I want you to
be with your breath 247." He didn't
always use those terms. That that was
familiar to me. And so the first or
second day I went in for interview, he
asked, you know, how long are you with
the breath? And I said, the better
question is how long am I not with the
breath? And that was about 30 to 60
minutes a day. So at that point, he sort
of uh encouraged me to keep going with
things. and uh and and I found the
practice just unfolded quite naturally
being with it. And I and I think in a
lot of ways I was benefited by the fact
I really didn't know anything and I
didn't know at that time that there
really hadn't been any western lay
people who had progressed in the genres
with him. Uh many had tried but had not
been successful. So uh all of that was
unknown to me until after the retreat.
But I found him a very uh very
personable teacher. He loved when I wore
my Zen robes. And he would just giggle
and say say, "I can't wait to get you in
brown robes." And he offered to ordain
me almost every time I went in. Not
quite, but often. And I was married at
the time. And I said, "Well, as soon as
you have married student housing, then
you know, I'm all yours." But uh no, it
was it was a great retreat. It was very
very impactful. He he's a very dedicated
and an amazing meditator himself and
doing the practices he required me to do
each of the Janna for three hours
uninterrupted
uh in order to move on to the next Janna
and of course there's a number of
attempts and a number of times one is in
even first Janna because you work with
these casinos these mind-made uh objects
and uh along with the breath and along
with the heart practices the Brahma
viharas all can access Janna. So you do
a lot of a lot of trips a lot of time
abiding in Janna. So the purification is
really quite impactful. I I think it
took me about 18 months to integrate
that retreat afterwards. But I did end
up at the end of the retreat uh sort of
un unknowingly popping into cessation
for a while and I was quite uh
confident in those days. I was much
younger. And so I set a time resolve for
three hours in sessation, which I never
recommend to anybody because I think
that just was sort of too deep and left
me pretty uh my hair blown blown back.
I'll say afterwards
>> and now it's totally gone. Um [laughter]
>> we we suffer from the same condition. I
think [laughter]
>> well Muggan um I you know I mean we're
going to I think this is going to be a
fascinating discussion uh in that you
can bridge and speak to the both
resonance and dichotomy and tension
between these terabata and Zen
perspectives on the practice and I think
there's some really interesting
territory to get into there uh including
terms of awakening sessation and more
>> right
>> to really begin um just bringing it very
practically back. I think some people
hear the term Janna thrown around and
you know for many pock the system is
very precise uh very um you know lays
out a clear path and yet people often
have huge trouble um staying with the
breath at one spot or sticking with the
casino for a long period
>> right
>> um and they don't necessarily have that
samadei faculty uh you know really
robust at the beginning of practice or
even after many decades
What practical advice would you give to
someone who's listening to this? They've
tried sticking, you know, focusing on
various objects and have just not been
able to remain with it. How would you
advise them uh very practically
uh in three or two or three minutes? uh
in terms of how to explore practice
towards samata
>> the the main thing that I think people
need to do that isn't traditionally done
is I encourage people to do 5 to 10
minutes of either meta or karuna
compassion for themselves before coming
to the breath because we need the heart
juiciness.
If you're staying with the breath and
there isn't a juiciness, my my line is
it feels like a factory job where you're
just stamping cans. It's very very uh
slow. It's very monotonous to do. But if
so, if you can sort of hold awareness
from the nose, including the upper
chest, and bring that to the breath, it
allows us to stay our heart to be
engaged as well.
The other tip I give people is to really
cultivate silence. And the main silence
they need to cultivate is inner silence.
So they need to have some distance from
their inner chatter. You know, most
people have thoughts, but the problem in
meditation is they bring awareness to
the thought rather than letting the
thought just pass by like a cloud in the
sky. So they've got to they have to
really be committed to silence.
And then they really have to stay with
the breath on and off the cushion.
Continuity is essential. If someone's
meditating beautifully and then get up
and they and they're not meditating for
two or three hours, let's say, they're
going to lose most of that meditative
concentration. Like boiling a pot of
water, you're taking the lid off the pot
and walking away and then wondering why
it's not full of steam when you come
back. So th those are the main tips I
would give to someone if they want to
progress and and you have to have a kind
of a lightness to it. As I teach it now,
I try to have people get in contact with
the non-conceptual breath. And so
getting away from our ideas, our
stories, our associations with breath
and getting to the deep felt sense. And
it has a qualitative different u I guess
uh feeling to it when we do get to the
to the non-conceptual breath. And that
really helps a lot also because we're
not getting into all the ideas and and
ruminating over our associations with
breath and and that kind of thing.
That's very helpful. And I wonder for
the benefit of those listening if you
could just expand out a little more on
how to cultivate uh karuna and um you
know compassion or meta towards towards
oneself in that space. I know many learn
a phrase to invoke meta and it works for
two days and then it stops or
>> right
>> you know the juiciness only maintains
for so long. So yeah, what are some
practical means people can use to access
that reliably and the felt sense of the
breath? What's a practical means for
touching that?
>> Well, the practical s the practical uh
contact with the breath is it's being
with the breath and it's it's letting
yourself descend into the breath. And as
our awareness begins to descend and
there is a feeling of sort of dropping
into it, we're moving more and more away
from the conceptual, the story of me,
all the different distractions that we
can have. And so, so that really helps a
lot with with meta. Generally, the the
meditative object is innate goodness.
Innate goodness is the goodness we can
witness in babies in uh whether they're
animal or human in nature itself. And
it's just the goodness like that babies
emanate without trying to be good.
They're not trying to perform for us.
They just are goodness. So it's getting
in contact with that either initially
through a memory or through our own life
experience.
And so once we get there, I I teach that
the support phrases are are to assist
us. If if you don't feel like you're
you're stable with the meditative object
of innate goodness, then you can turn to
some of the support phrases to keep you
focused. The problem is a lot of people
treat the support phrases as the object.
And so that becomes a problem. They're
just caught up in the words. They're not
they're not descending into the
non-conceptual breath. And with karuna,
karuna is about being with uh duca,
being with the unsatisfactoriness,
the suffering of human life. And so by
being with and and certainly we can
experience duca on these retreats, we
can have bodily pain. We can have mental
issues going on. We can have a lot a lot
of things to choose from, environmental
noise. So there's lots of sources of
dooka. And to simply be with it,
accepting it and opening to to the dooka
allows the tenderness, the love of what
I call the absolute, which is the
source. The ab the love of the absolute
comes in and and we feel a kind of
uplift and a tender holding. The the one
disagreement I have with some teachers
is they talk about karuna compassion
taking away suffering or dooka. And I
say no, it doesn't take it away. It
helps us supports
us being with it because we need to be
with the dooka. That's really where our
practice is. And by being with it, then
we can we can help unpack it. We can
help digest whatever is ready to be uh
worked with if that's appropriate.
>> Yeah. In in your book uh the Buddhist
heart um you actually have um preceding
your discussion of the four Brahma
vihares or the divine abidings a whole
small section on innate goodness. So
it's something kind of a preliminary
practice to the four Brahma viharas and
I appreciated that but that that concept
of innate goodness and how you describe
it isn't one that I had found in in
terraada in terra texts and I'm curious
if you could say more about that and
also after you describe that in in your
book you actually give the four
brahaviharas in reverse order so going
upa or equinimity first followed by muda
sympathetic joy compassion and then
loving kindness.
>> So could you maybe say more about innate
goodness um and if there is a terra
equivalent or if it's something that
you've picked up elsewhere and also why
you chose to present or why you choose
to present the divine abidings in the
order that you do.
>> Sure. Then uh when I was writing
Buddha's heart, I whenever I'm writing a
book and have meditation as part of the
book, which is typically what I do, I
spend a lot of time with the meditations
and I typically try to take them apart.
I try to mix and match. I I try to do
different things with them to see, you
know, do do we, for example, the
category of beings, do we need them in
this order? Is this really the best
order? And so I would experiment by
trying different ones first or second.
And what I found was the category of
beings that that are traditional in
terraada are the best um the best
sequence. It does take us deeper and
deeper into the practice. So it's
effective in that way. And what I found
was uh that that with meta, if I took
innate goodness without support phrases
and just really zeroed in on that as my
meditation object, I found there to be a
benefit. There was a kind of uplift, a a
certain uh flow, a certain buoyancy, a
certain optimism that really came into
my experience. And I began experimenting
with students, having them try it and
see what happened. And I found a lot of
students really took to it and it was
easy for them to also practice off the
cushion, which is a big part of my
teaching. Whatever you're doing on the
cushion, you should be doing off the
cushion. And things like I tell them,
you know, because my students are are
lay people. So before you go in the
grocery store and you're in your car,
just take five minutes to contact innate
goodness and then try and maintain that
contact even a little as you move
through the grocery store. And you'll
find you start relating to and
recognizing others innate goodness as
your abiding in your innate goodness. So
this begins changing some of the
behaviors and patterns people have. And
it begins to fill in what what I call
psychologically the core wound which is
the the deep deficit that most people
carry of some perception of
worthlessness or failure on their part.
And so it helps fill that in as well. So
that's how I came up with it. It was I I
say I innovated it. I didn't invent it.
Um but you know it's a small eye. I just
I borrowed it from the meta and found it
beneficial. And this is part of my my
teaching where I I experiment a lot. I
try particularly with the terabond and
Zen I I I'll combine you have people
practice from one tradition for a while
then I'll say with the Zen tradition
then I'll move them into the heart
practices and then back into say
Shikantaza which is a major Zen
meditation
and turning to your point about the
order of the Brahma vihares a lot of
teachers in the west uh teach obviously
the sequence the reverse sequence so
meta karuna muda and uka and What
happens is a lot of people spend
inordinate amount of time with meta then
they'll spend a little less time with
karuna by the time they get to muda it's
a little bit of a taste and oopeka many
people can't contact a lot of some
teachers don't even teach it they just
focus on the first couple and what I
found waseka is incredibly important
because about accepting the truth of
this moment so whatever is happening are
the greatest resistance humans have is
from not accepting what's here. I don't
want this in some fashion and I begin to
brace against the moment. So right there
you can see there's a closing down uh an
inability or an unwillingness to open.
And so I found by starting with aka and
working with just acceptance and I teach
this if somebody comes to me with some
issue or life problem the first thing
I'm telling them okay let's start with
acceptance let's start with aka and and
I and the simple way to practice it is
just simply to repeat internally
acceptance
acceptance and that just lets the energy
drop a bit it lets us be more grounded
and settled and also it doesn't it
doesn't uh kick up our resistances to
what's happening. So we can more
accurately perceive what's going on. So
that to me became really the the base
the foundation for the the Brahma
vihares. And then w with muda muda
really is focusing on the unity the
non-duality
quality of the love of the absolute. uh
and the way I I frame it is that meta is
like the big umbrella and the other
Brahma viharas are derivatives of that.
So that's why I think going sort of
upstream we start we do the the uh you
know upa and then muda about unity. So
your happiness if I'm deeply in a unity
experience your happiness is perceived
the same as my happiness. So, it isn't
that I'm I'm I'm recognizing you have
something happen and I feel good about
it. I feel it the same way you do. It's
like I'm getting that new job or I'm
getting that ice cream cone. And so that
really lets us, you know, uh really lets
us break down the separation between
other self and others. And then moving
into compassion. Compassion's terribly
important for humans because we do have
the dooka. No matter what your stage of
attainment, you're going to have health
issues. You're going to have a variety
of things that are going to be uh
challenging. And so, we all need to be
able to be with the discomfort, the
dissatisfactoriness
of life and to hold that in a way with
tenderness. And that's where the
of the absolute comes in. love comes in
to help hold it and is really the I talk
about meta translating as as unborn
unconditioned love. So unborn it's
always around unconditioned. We don't
need to do anything to have access to it
or or we don't have to deserve it even.
So so that lets us open more and not get
into our our worthiness, you know, am I
worthy of meta? And and then I teach it
that we practice meta for ourselves and
when we're full it will automatically
begin to broadcast. So we don't try like
I'm not trying to send meta to you. I
just do meta and as I'm doing it here
with you, let's say it's going to begin
to overflow and the close recipients
will be the first folks to be uh touched
by that. So I I frame it a little
different, but it's it's based on my own
practice and then working with students
uh you know because I'm I'm also trying
to work with lay students and keep the
practices relevant to uh modern lay
people as well.
Well, thank you Lugan. I I appreciate
that myself. I think that reordering I
mean the Buddha did typically teach the
Brahma Biharas in you know meta kuruna
muda up but as you're saying I mean um I
I do find value in that as well your
innovative um yeah reordering and just
on this this topic of care uh another
innovation which I have encountered in
your teachings is about the precepts or
about morality in general you've got a a
teaching about looking at each of the
five precepts or the eight precepts If
someone's on retreat in terms of their
inner as aspect, their outer aspect, and
their secret aspect,
>> we all we all like the secret, don't we?
>> Yeah, I know. [clears throat]
>> Yeah. Well,
would love it if you could actually
explain what each of those three modes
of of being and examining and practicing
the precepts are.
>> And I'll say also I I've actually um
reddrafted the Zen precepts. the Zen
precepts like for example the first
precept is generally do not kill and
I've reddrafted it as the precept of
preciousness
because I found for myself and students
if I reflect on my day at the end of the
day and say well I didn't kill anybody
today so I can tick that box but if but
if I'm holding preciousness did I
recognize did I support did I encourage
preciousness in my life throughout today
that that gives some people something to
work with that's tangible and and we can
stay with it. So that that's actually
going to be I've got a book that that'll
be coming out called living awakeness.
But after that one I'm working on a
precept book where I'll I'll detail and
have practices on what I'm calling the
generative precepts.
But but coming back to your question on
outer inner and secret I borrowed that
from the Tibetan uh practitioners. I I
studied the Zoken Rigpa practice for
about five years and and so was
acquainted with some of the terminology
and the way I found it was working with
the precepts. There would be the outer
which is which is the exterior to the
body and in terms of relating to others.
How am I doing with the precept in that
regard? And then the inner is sort of my
own inner experience, my own psychology.
How how am I working the precept? How is
the precept catching there? And then
finally, the secret is really holding it
in uh a way that's deeper, that's more
what we might call in our true nature in
the Zen tradition or I might say we're
in contact with the absolute. So we're
we're with more of the source relating
to the precept rather than just my
behavior or my psychology or mentalizing
about it, which would be the outer and
inner. So I and I thought by doing it
this way and it has proven to be helpful
that students could get more traction
with the precepts because a lot of the
westerners as I'm sure you've seen the
lay people they they take it very
seriously but they don't know what to do
with it once they take the precepts it's
a little complicated on well how do you
apply it so I was trying to give people
some some uh methodology where they
could apply it more and that led to my
drafting the generative precepts
So move in. Um you know there are two
kind of interesting intersections I
think worth exploring. One is the
innovative language you've sort of
drafted for some of these things and the
other is um the intersection between Zen
and Terraata. And obviously these ven
diagrams intersect in different ways
with um language like the absolute. You
know obviously you must know Terravada
monks get a little nervous around such
language. Um and you know
>> and uh
>> it doesn't mean they don't know it.
>> Yeah. Well, and it's interesting because
yes, in the poly, you know, the Buddha
motions to Nibana, the deathless
element, the amatu.
Um and he you know was very uh kind of
careful in his language around um how he
talked about these these things so as
not to um make them not to allow us to
raify them too much. Um and you know you
do talk about the absolute the
non-manifest uh ver sort of emptiness
and then the manifest which is uh you
know can manifest as light and has all
these qualities which interestingly uh
do map on to the beautiful mental
constituents talked about in the abidama
quite well you know like
>> luminosity of mind and malleability
>> and certainly arant features these
beautiful mental qualities but just as
someone who's had to navigate both of
these
um you know navigate this language which
I do find a really useful skillful
means. It calls forth something in my
heart that the word nabana does not. Um
and yet, you know, there is the danger
of people taking it too far or or really
buying into it in a way that might not
be healthy. Um
>> or might, you know,
how do you walk that line between uh
kind of the traditional Buddhist
precision of how he spoke about the
deathless and this language which you
find was so
>> in Terravada.
>> Yeah. in Terravada and the sort of
language which which you use.
>> Well, you know, some of it starts from I
think our own questioning of what would
the Buddha teach if he was alive today?
How would he be talking about these
things? Because I think that based on
the time when he was teaching this, he
was using the language that was most
accessible to those folks. And like when
you look at the sutas when he mentions
Janna he has a kind of a formula way of
talking about the Janna. And I I view it
that the Janna were so well known in
those days because they were were active
in in the uh yogic tradition uh you know
preceding Buddhism and and I think that
like today if we were in a group just if
we gathered a hundred westerners
together and we just said uh let's take
five minutes to pray together everybody
would have some idea of what prayer
means. And I think in the same way that
Janna was that kind of a term in the
Buddha's day. So he could give a kind of
a shortorthhand about it and people knew
oh yeah you focus here you do this. So
so I think some of it we have to look at
the the uh context of when the language
was being used. And for me I first made
contact with the absolute uh on the
retreat I did with Pawok after finishing
the eighth Janna coming back to the
access concentration of eighth Janna. I
found that there was a portal there and
that of course I went through and I
found myself in what I call the absolute
realm what in some terraoden teachers I
know it's not not orthodox but they call
the ninth Janna and so I was in the
absolute or awareness was in the
absolute and consciousness and there was
a lot of perception going on about what
was happening and what it was and then
from there that led to where I could
feel the pull of sessation
the stillness, the peace, the darkness,
the the emptiness of sessation really
like a kind of tractor beam pulling. And
so I I began to see, oh, I see that even
things like like love and and these
other qualities, presence, they're, you
know, they're great, but they come from
they come from sessation. sessations the
hub of the absolute
and that that nothingness that it has I
mean it's it's a nothingness uh no
mentality or materiality with such a
potency that's responsible for all of
life all of creation all of
manifestation
so it it's incredibly powerful to to be
near to go in to abide in so anyway that
that's what started My my mapping this
was recognizing from my own experience.
And then when I began working with
students more particularly in the Zen
tradition, I began introducing some of
this and I found it really made sense to
people. They were having experiences.
The other thing that I do in my teaching
which is in the books is I I do these
guided meditations that a lot of people
can follow. a large number of folks who
resonate with my teaching can follow and
people have uh awakenings they have
sessation
just from my leading guided meditations.
So there's something about uh having
that energy in the field having that
language and the precision that does
help people in the Zen tradition
particularly Zen you if you go to a
teacher and say I'm having this
experience I went into one teacher when
I was young oh I love everybody I'm
falling in love with everybody I want to
hug them all and they were like get rid
of that that's that's not something we
deal with and it was just unknown and I
was really in this in this deep meta
unity experience and it wasn't
recognized and if you brought in any
experience they would just say go sit.
So there was no help in terms of mapping
or technique of meditation. And that's
part of what I've tried to introduce is
some understanding, some languaging that
people could then use to uh deepen their
practice because I feel like it's it's
not like I'm revealing anything that's
any great secret, but it's putting a
context on it with the understanding
this is based on on my experience and
now my experience of students. I've
probably have between 50 and 100
students that have had awakenings
whether Zen Kensho or Cherabod
sessation. So, so I I'm having a a I I
have a group that I can I can learn from
as well and fine-tune language and
things like that. And again, I tell
people I'm not a traditional teacher in
either either tradition. If that's what
you want that then I'm not the person.
I'm I'm more looking for innovation. How
do these work? what what advances the
the student the best and the most is
really my my objective.
>> One of the teachings which you give uh
which I think does a a great job of
straddling this seeming divide between
some of the language of the terabata and
some of the language of of Zen. Um you
know there was a some languaging of Zen
that I used to really like before I
ordained of no effort. You don't need to
make any effort.
>> Mhm.
And coming to terra you know you got
right effort you know capital R capital
E [laughter]
you know but one uh kind of skillful
means you you use is talking about
proactive effort and receptive effort
and I think you're rather uniquely
situated having gone through the PA
Janna system which really does take a
lot of skillful effort both proactive
and receptive and I'm curious if you
could say more about these terms and if
they apply as you experienced it both
with cultivation of the Janna and
cultivation of uh shikantasa you
mentioned that earlier or other uh Zen
meditations um
>> maybe are more on the receptive end of
things
>> right yeah the the main thing is like
with the Pak Janna system that initially
we all need to bring proactive effort I
need to direct awareness to the breath
in the anapana region between the
nostrils and the upper lip. It's not
going to do it by itself or it doesn't
seem to do it by itself. So, at first
we're coming back. We find awareness.
We're thinking about lunch. We come
back. Somebody loosened the zipper on
their jacket and I was distracted. Come
back. So, we keep coming back, coming
back, coming back. And and that's the
first Janna factor of vitaka, which I I
talk about as applied awareness. Once it
begins to sustain which means anywhere
from 10 to 20 minutes without serious
interruption that's the second Janna
factor of vichara that's where we have
to start relaxing we have to start stop
doing as much and we need to start
allowing and so that's where I came up
with the terms proactive receptive and
and I talk a lot in my teaching about
ripeness and about surrender and the
ripeness is we have to Understand that
in all of these practices, we all have a
a particular kind of ripeness and it
doesn't mean that all of us in this
moment are ready to contact and be
absorbed into sessation. We have to be
ripe for that. So it it doesn't help to
think we have to, you know, through my
effort that I'm going to make it happen
because it doesn't work that way. So
it's different than our lay lives, our
our ordinary lives where we believe that
our life functions well because of our
individual efforts.
>> So [clears throat] there's a
skillfulness to apply effort and there's
a point when the practice begins to do
itself. And that's where we need to
start surrendering effort, relaxing,
allowing and realize we're not directing
this. All we're doing is abiding here
and the whole practice is unfolding. The
janna factors are beginning to appear.
We're going deeper. Thoughts are getting
quieter. We're finding a focus. Maybe
we're having some light phenomenon. The
pre- nimita light phenomenon could be
happening. So all of that we have to
keep allowing because we're not
controlling it. And if we start
monkeying with it, then you know we're
just going to uh derail our practice.
One of the things I tell people on a
Janna retreat is don't play with your
nimmita. And everybody does that. They
get a light phenomenon in Nimita and
they get excited which we all do and
they end up trying to make it bigger,
make it more intense, do all these
things and eventually it goes away. So
it's a self-reinforcing system. If
you're going to apply proactive effort
beyond the point it's it's really
recommended, it it's going to start
derailing the practice. So you you
actually have to start surrendering and
allowing and being receptive.
So, uh, Muggan, I I think, um, I'm going
to ask some questions that I'm really
curious about. Um,
and think you can speak to in a way that
not many can. Um,
one of which is the, you know, one
consistent point of, uh, tension or or
confusion I have with the Zen tradition
is the term awakening is applied very
broadly to something called Sattorii,
which see or kencho, which seems to be a
brief glimpse of something, Sattorii,
which perhaps maps onto stream entry. Um
and [clears throat] in terabati as you
know awakening is uh reserved for a very
you know a certain set of experiences
from stream entry on up and cessation uh
their sessation of perception and
feeling is generally ascribed as a state
only accessible by non- returners and
arants who
>> right
>> the Buddha has said you know I've given
up sensual lust completely can no longer
live a household life etc. So I have a
twofold question there and um genuinely
like this is a discussion I've wanted to
have for a long time. Um you you know
first how do you map the uh Zen
awakening system onto the terra
and um how do you kind of square this
idea of uh awakening or sessation
experience as a very rarified uh
experience that really would usher
someone into monasticism almost
immediately at least by some Terraata
accounts with um you know the idea that
maybe a hundred students or something
are achieving a cessation experience
And just genuinely curious this is I've
never actually gone to talk to a Zen
teacher about this who's had terra uh
kind of experience as well.
>> Sure. Yeah. And and to say that the
hundred students or 50 to 100 I
mentioned that would be a combination of
the Zen Kencho experience and cessation.
The minority would be cessation.
>> So the majority would be Zen Kencho
experiences. So first kencho is a term
used broadly in the Zen tradition to
simply mean awakening seeing into one's
true nature and we talk about depth of
kencho really relates to how long the
sense of self the personality is
suspended because when it in the
experience of of kencho there's uh three
components there's a deep sense of no
self so there there's no
self-referencing that can be made I
don't know who I am is it would be the
only answer one could give there's also
a deep sense of the unity the love of
the absolute so we have to have that
love the deep emptiness and then there
has to be finally the recognition this
is my true self this is truly who I am
what I am and that creates the kind of
inner explosive experience that does
suspend the personality the sense of me
for a period of time. Virtually nobody
is at gone forever. That's that's
sometimes talked about in the Zen
tradition and it's really more fable
than reality in my experience.
But that and so
so that would be saturator
to me is a more sustained uh awakening
experience. So it's going to be a longer
experience. One can have a saturator as
their first Zen awakening experience but
that would mean that the sense of self
is suspended is not present for at least
weeks if not months. So a long enough
time that they really get the no self
really gets rooted in their
consciousness.
And so that and and then what happens is
the foundation shifts. The person that
has kensho still is going to have a
sense of me as their inner foundation
let's say. And with the saturator the
the personality the sense of me is
shifted out of the way and what we call
our true nature becomes our foundation
and true nature is the qualities of the
absolute in a particular consciousness.
So emptiness, unity, love, uh peace,
stillness,
presence etc are all within all of us.
It's in our it's coded into our
consciousness. And so, but that becomes
the self-reference.
And then in the Zen tradition, there's a
third awakening recognized called daote,
which translates as final or full
enlightenment, which it it truly isn't
either. Uh but the reason it's called
that is because the sense of self is
effectively put down and is not picked
back up again. So it's it's quite rare
and it's quite impactful but there's no
sense of self and the foundation becomes
the absolute itself. So when there's a
self-reference it's not self-referencing
a personal history or a certain identity
it and not even true nature qualities of
the absolute but the absolute self. So,
so that's the Zen map. And I think that
I I'm I'm always reluctant to, you know,
over overlay them, but but I think in at
least in the West, there are late
terraodin teachers that will recognize
Zen Kencho if it's deep enough as a
streamantry experience.
For me, I I'm looking for whether it's
sessation or kensho, I'm looking for
what I call awakeness, qualities of
awakeness. My next book coming out is is
called living awakeness. So I detail
about 15 qualities of awakeness, what
they are, how to work with them, and
then I talk about a variety of things
like the yoga chara, eight levels of
consciousness, and then how those get
changed based on different awakenings.
So it's it's organized towards that. But
I'm looking for that awakeness, the
brightness, the clarity, um the ease.
You know, there's a variety of things,
but one of them is service. Are the
people oriented more towards service
than they were before? That's a natural
outcome of a deep awakening experience.
So for someone who has a sessation
experience on a retreat with me for
example, it's only if I can by watching
them over succeeding days or weeks that
I can see this awakeness. Like I had a
gentleman uh have an assessation
experience at a retreat about two years
ago and uh he had that awakeness quality
very clearly and he was recently on
retreat with me again. Uh and he still
has it. He he's talked about how his
life has changed in ways that it hasn't
returned to the old way. So that's part
of the awakeness is there's just this
shift away from being say an an
earthbound person, an earth dweller and
we become something else. I know the
terraoden talks about as noble ones or
different languaging like that. I don't
tend to use that kind of language, but
um anyway, so I'll I'll pause here or
stop here.
>> No, no. Patuja being the the world the
worldling or earthling as you said. Um,
>> yeah,
>> I I appreciate keeping each systems
integrity and it strikes me that it it's
very important to
see I really am curious do those final
awakenings map up a ship and that other
third one you named because if these
systems there can only be one ultimate
in the end of the day, right? So that
feels like an important thing to for me
to ask is like is there a uni unity at
the end of these articulations? Uh, and
would you say that that third stage of
awakening is is our ship in the Zen and
and Terabotic Inception?
>> I I I think there are parallels uh to
the two. Um,
I of course my my
when I talk about Araant, I don't talk
about it in the same sort of uh mystical
way that it's often presented. And
that's not a disparagement. It's just uh
th things like the the defilements uh
are gone. I I I think that the
defilements are very very weakened but
unless one has done some personal work a
lot of the deep wounding that humans
carry today isn't going to be resolved.
And so that's part of what in the digote
realization the core wound as I call it
is resolved. it's it's completed it's
rounded out whatever language you want
to use. So that means that that driver
that anchor is no longer present and
that's what I see in the arant as well
is that because this the core wound is
active up until that stage or that
realization that in that realization
process in in that journey into
sessation that's going to be resolved
either somehow in entering exiting or
embodying the fruits of sessation the
the core wound gets
um satisfied or it gets completed,
whatever language you want to use. So I
think there's equivalence. I'm almost
reluctant to say that they're parallel
because there are a lot of the
terraodins that are very touchy about
it. Um and so I I don't want to walk
into a hornet's nest either. So
>> we're not very for the record.
[laughter] That's that's kind of what I
say is yes there's equivalencies
and and I think you know like I was
talking with someone the other day
another teacher and they were talking
about um the the the territory from
arant to Buddha and and that because
part of my teaching is there's no end to
realization and there's no end to
personal work because we have
subconscious and unconscious material no
matter how realized you are there's
still going to be triggering events
where new material gets percolated up
and so we engage it and we work it. We
don't pretend it's not there. We don't
try to spiritually bypass. We engage it.
And my at least this teacher was of the
mind that that the territory between Ara
and Buddha is one where all the
condition material in the unconscious
and subconscious is resolved. So there's
no more material at all. I I haven't
actually seen that in terod text. Maybe
it's there and I don't know about it.
But, you know, that was sort of a a kind
of a leap I wasn't willing to make. I I
don't really I I'll talk about the
Tatagata. So, so that I think is we we
can language around that. There's more
about functionality there. I mean,
Buddha has such a high a high barrier,
high mark. I I don't know that there's
much productivity talking about that.
>> Yeah. Yeah, I'm curious um some other um
language I think you use quite
effectively in talking about these
different stages of awakening whether
it's in the Zen system or in a teraba
system is the accordion effect and the
stage step um step process
>> and yeah we consider the arant I mean
the language usually is something like
done is what had to be done and you know
transcending greed anger and delusion
and no more mental suffering but could
you explain Uh I I appreciated this
language, the accordion effect and
>> what [clears throat] that looks like for
a spiritual awakening as well as the
stairstep process.
>> Sure. Well, virtually everybody who goes
on an extended retreat is going to be
familiar with the the accordion effect.
And really what that's meaning is we
have a new transcendent experience. We
have an expansiveness that we've never
had before. Regardless of the practice,
whether it's meta or it's it's uh
something else, it's it we're just in
new territory and we have new insights
that come with it and new amazement and
awe and wonder and generally shortly
after that the personality gets
triggered and it's like wait a minute
this is not what I signed on for I am
not in control of this. This is not
okay. And so the personality does its
best to get back into its structure
because with the transcendent
experience, the personality material
opens up and and that's where the
personality gets gets scared. It's it's
afraid it's going to go away because we
often have a relationship to our
personality that it is the same as me.
And so we get a sense that wait a
minute, if this thing goes any further,
I might lose the me or the personality.
And so it slams back as tight as it can
get. Typically, it's not where it
started. But it if you're if the
realization or the the experience is
here, it's, you know, it's closer
together. So people have a sense after
having a deep transcendent experience
of, well, I lost it. I did something
wrong. I screwed up. you know I I'm not
good enough for this some some kind of
negative selft talk so I began talking
about no it's just the accordion effect
it's got to come together and that's
where the integration embodiment happens
once that happens and whatever like one
of my main instructions to students is
to track congruent uh reaction so
anything that triggers you where you get
a glass in the restaurant with lipstick
do you just ask for a new glass or do
you scream at the waitress or waiter So
the screaming at them is an
overreaction. So something got triggered
by your getting that glass with lipstick
that probably hit somewhere in the core
wound. So by tracking that we begin to
see patterns. We begin to see
associations that then we can work as
personal material. And that's what my
book Liberating the Self is about.
working some of those things like like
greed, hatred, anger, things like that
and learning to get to the vulnerability
preceding them which opens us to the
quality of the absolute that we're
actually wanting to draw upon. So I I
forgot the oh the and then the stairstep
method is simply that that moving uh we
have a new transcendent experience
typically. So, we step up and then
typically there's that integration and
that's what I was just speaking to was
we start seeing all the things that
don't fit anymore. Uh I I don't want to
live my life doing this anymore. I want
to change that uh to be more congruent.
And and as I say it, we want the outside
to match the inside is really the simple
instruction. And so, but by framing it
as a stairstep method, we get to that
stair. Then there's a plateau and that's
the integration and the personality
changes. And once we've digested enough
of the psychological material that arose
from that realization, then we're ob
we're often ready for the next step up
in terms of transcendent experience,
which is going to be followed by its own
psychological material that's in
congruent with the realization.
Do you do you feel that uh Janna
practice or your your practice with the
paw system was helpful for allowing you
to be able to shift into the ways of of
seeing uh of seeing not self? Um yeah.
Do you Yeah. Or
>> Sure.
>> Yeah. Well, the ma the main thing is
because in the pox system for for for a
teacher to recognize or confirm Janna
along with the Janna experience, there
can't be any sense of self. There's no
sense of me at all and there's no
thought. So, those are revolutionary
experiences on their own. If we went out
to uh Pikes Pikees Market down there and
we interviewed people, they would say,
"What what happens when when thoughts
stop?" If your thoughts stop, they'd
say, "Well, I'm dead." Or, you know,
what happens when you when you don't
have a sense of self? I'm dead. Or I'm I
need to go to the, you know, psychiatric
hospital. But but it's something that we
can we can experience in little little
bits which do help us gain greater
acclamation and acceptance of what we
call non-self no self in Buddhism.
>> So we're going to have to move over to
Zoom in just a second and we'll post a
link to the uh Zoom session into the
chat in a moment. Um we haven't been
able to take questions because we have
our computer turned upside down in a the
black thing. So sorry for everyone
trying to ask us question.
[laughter and clears throat]
We can barely see ourselves. Um but
Mugan Roshi I just wanted to end with uh
one question is you know we've taken a
kind of trip through cessation different
awakening all these uh sort of uh very
refined languages or languaging. Um one
thing I've very much appreciated though
is how you're able to bring it into the
body and how people actually work with
it. And um you know in terms of working
with meta near the heart that's fairly
common and obvious but still it's
powerfully invoked.
>> But perhaps could we end um with just
would you speak a little more about the
core wound and how people can work what
is the core wound and how can people
work with that in their own I believe
the diaphragm is where you say it lives
often. I thought be a very poignant uh
inroad to something very tender.
>> Yeah. In the solar plexus around the
diaphragm is typically where most of us
hold the experiences that we find to be
particularly wounding. And the core
wound comes from uh the psychological
work of Margaret Mer of dual unity.
We're born in a dual unity. So we're in
unity with presence of the absolute is
how I would frame it. And at some point
the infant, the toddler realizes I need
to invest in this society and this
family to survive. So we all turn away
from that that dual unity that uh
undivided unity and unfortunately almost
all of us blame ourselves. Something was
wrong with me. I was thrown out of
heaven. I was you know thrown out of
this contact. And the the story of it is
different. It can be I'm bad. I'm
worthless. I'm helpless. I'm hopeless.
I'm unlovable. Something like that. But
uh people typically have to work down to
it. They start by just again watching
the the inongruent behavior. That that's
our first tip off. And if we do that
enough, we'll begin to start surfacing.
We'll follow we're following the streams
to get to the river of the core wound.
>> Min, thank you so much for joining us.
And yeah, you're definitely right that
you know, I'm sure, well, I don't know
if people in the Zen side of things can
get a little bit uncomfortable when we
start going too hard on the uh terravada
side of things, but definitely terraod
can get really uh sensitive when we
start talking about such high
attainments. But uh yeah, you're I mean
bonafides having gone through the pock
system that is yeah, you can't you can't
fake that. I mean I lived at a pock
monastery for a year and the kind of
testing structures for that are
something which really is hard to find
anywhere in the the terravada world uh
outside of the pollock system and the
type of janna you know there are
different ways of speaking about janna
and the subtlety or the profoundity of
the jas are described differently in
different systems but the pock janna are
ones which are yeah extremely profound
and um so yeah that's uh definitely
something very much worth worth praising
and appreciate your uh yes speaking
about it in this uh approachable way and
for taking the time to join us this
evening.
>> I enjoyed it. It was it was a nice nice
time to spend with you both. Thank you
for having me.
>> Thank you. And uh we know before you
entered you talked about um doing some
snow blowing up in front of your house
and is it Billy Collins poem called
Shoveling Snow with the Buddha? So it
was good to do that with you today. It
was
>> Thank you. Thank you.
>> Thanks.
[music]