#374 - Jordan Reynolds on How He Stumbled Into Songwriting and Now Has 7 No. 1’s (Tequila, 10,000 Hours + More) and A Grammy + The Joke That Made Him Gain Respect for Bobby + The Pros and Cons of Being an Eternal Optimist vs. Pessimist

00:00:01
Speaker 1: Welcome to Episode three seven four. Jordan Reynolds. Jordan K. Reynolds is his Instagram. If you wanna go look at it and see what he looks like as we do it. I always find I like to do that during interviews. I want to see a picture of the face the person that I'm talking with. But here we are, Episode three seventy four. He is a Grammy Award winning songwriter. I mean he's got two Grammys for ten thousand hours and God only knows by for King and Country. He is a CMA Triple Play Award winner, and that means he wrote three number one songs in a twelve month period. He wrote Tequila, he wrote Speechless, he wrote All to Myself with and for Dan and Shay. He's got so many number one He was just nominated for another Grammy. It's his fifth nomination, and he has won the a c M four Song of the Year in twenty nineteen with Tequila. But I really enjoyed this talk. I really like someone who comes in and challenges me, not like I'll show you, let's argue, but who like presents ideas and I'm like, oh that's interesting, Well what about this? I really enjoyed this talk. I hope you will too. Jordan k Reynolds is his name, And let's go with another episode of the Bobby Cast. I'm in that weird stage. I was over my house because we just left the radio show came here, by the way, God, you're here. Are you tired? No? You've kind of got a dialed at this point? Probably, Mike, are we tired? I don't really know. I feel this way all the time. I don't know if I'm tired. How Like, what time did you get? That is a really good question. I did not expect for it to stop me in my tracks. So are you tired? Now? I get sleepy quite often, But I think it would be like asking a bodybuilder who's lifting weight? Is that heavy? Because that's what they do all the time. They have to do it at a high level, or they don't grow and get stronger. Well, you been doing this for how long? Now? Just radio itself in any form? Since I was seventeen mornings, since I was twenty two. It's almost twenty years, bro, that's crazy. So I started really I've been lucky enough to be a grizzled veteran, but I started really young. It's so that the most impressive part about what you do is being tired or whatever it is and still having your brain fire, because you have to be firing on all cylinders. I wonder how firing my brain would be if I wasn't tired, though it would probably be insane. Well, and I appreciate you making it about me, but I don't want to make it about me. But I guess I think it's the end of the year too, are you? Do you have senior ittis a bit as a writer as a creator. So the last couple of years I've done like a Thanksgiving through your the end of the year, I just block it off just to I usually end up writing, but like it's a good mental thing for me. I mean, you know, like Awards week, everything starts slowing down. Everybody's kind of like, all right, we got a couple more weeks, and I'm just like, I think it's just better instead of having like scheduled rights, It's like if somebody is around and we're in town, we're like, let's just get together. Cool, we got another plane. So I kind of I do and I don't because I knew that the finish line was already coming yesterday was the finish line from me. It's the finish line of obligations. That's right, that's good. Yeah, yeah, like that. I don't know. For me, it's never senior ititis as much as it is. I got to get all this stuff done by then. M hmmm, because we check out. I would never stop. I should. I have a wife and she makes me and it's a good wife. Yes, but it's very It was really tough for me at first because my whole life I've just run as hard as I can because I feel like I have to not to prove to anything to anybody else, but proved myself, and I feel like I have to or I'm not going to be able to maintain success at all. Do you ever worry? But if you don't keep writing that, you're going to either lose an edge inside of you or people are going to lose the fact that they think right now you're hot and they want to work with you. Of course, of course, I think, like you get into an industry like this that's so subjective and you think like I am the golden child. I think you have to literally think that. You know. I love that you say that because you have people will tell me and I'm glad. I'm thinking, I'm thankful you said that, because I would have said it anyway. But it comes off so much worse if I just come out of nowhere and go like, look at me, I'm awesome and I don't think that, but I say it. I say it all the time, where a lot of people will go they'll send me a message, or people that are disagreeing with how I do things, or they don't like just the show or a TV project to work on, and they're like, you are just You're so self obsessed, You're so self indulgent. And I'm like, that's my career. It's either what I'm doing, what I'm thinking, how I feel about it, what it has to be. I'm tired of me most of the time. Oh yeah, yeah, I think it really does. But I have to believe. But I have to believe that what I'm saying is good enough to put it out and somebody has wants to consume, either with their time or their money. If we're being honest, though, in literally any job ever, you have to have that. If you're the executive, it's some because you're getting you're stepping into a situation where like you're looking at your calendar and you're going, I have so much to do, Okay, the only person who can do this is this Bobby, you know, like Bobby who is on and doing it, and like you have to convinced to that. But like say you're Elon Musk and you're going into a meeting and you're like, sure, he's got impostius. He is the richest man in the world, but like he's been really lucky too. He's going into meetings going like I any decision I make really really affects things, and I have to have the confidence to know like I can do this. And it doesn't mean like you're egotistical. I don't think it just you just have to believe in yourself, you know. And there is a line and I don't always cross or I don't always walk it correctly where confidence and arrogance meat, and sometimes I don't. I'm not quite as confident I should be. Sometimes I'm so confident that comes off the aga. Sometimes I'm really confident in some areays and just insecures craping others. Yeah, so I could come off where it's like, oh, stop doing this act where you just you hate yourself. No, no, no, there are parts of me that really I've struggled a long time with you and don't really love and I'm trying get better, and there are parts of me where I go, oh, I'm I'm a well oiled freaking machine. Put myself up against anybody. We we like have this weird thing in our culture where you can't um, you can't fully endorse yourself, you know, like it's it's such a bizarre thing. But we also want people who like know what they're doing. So I think the ticket to that feels like if you do ride the line, if you overstep and you've stepped into arrogance or whatever, it's like just like you've done You've done a lot of work on yourself. It's obviously seems like like you can just apologize. Like that's the cool part of humanity is like anytime we mess up and just be like, ah, you know what, remember that thing I said. I didn't mean that. You know, Yeah, culture doesn't allow completely for that, But our culture doesn't really allow nuance. What's and you make a point where it's like, yes, people want this, but they also don't want this. But they want this, but at the same time, it doesn't allow nuance at all, so you're kind of you're just fistfighting the wind. Yeah, that's right, that you can't really win. Every thing's nuanced religion, you know, music, everything. Yeah, yet there isn't room for it in the world that we live in because the loudest folks are those that don't live nuanced. There's you know, pretty black and white. There are some situations that I've been in and i'll talk about it now, and I really haven't talked about this at all, but I feel like I can safely talk about your super bright guy. Um, whenever Morgan got into trouble and I came on the other next morning and I'll just talk about stuff, and I got on the air and it's all on YouTube still to this day. I never pulled it, and I said, here's what's up. He's got to go away for a little bit. I don't think we should cancel because I don't believe in canceling folks. But I do believe in second chances, and I do so I do this thing where I say, we're not canceling him, but he can't just stay right now. So I get crushed from for the sake of it. We'll call it the woke side. They're like, no, you cancel him right now, or you are the problem. The other side we'll call the non woke side. They're going, you don't tell him to go away. He stays right here and you there, and I'm going in my mind and I haven't read any blogs. I just say what I feel because I don't want to be shifted by someone else's perspective. I tell my story. I talk about how it's affected me, how I don't even understand how it's affected others, because I don't live the life of somebody that's not me. I explained my education yet my ignorance, and I try to make sure everybody knows that. And then I say, here's my opinion. He and I know Morgan, and I like Morgan, and i'd like Morgan. I said, but this is bad. It's a mess up. He's got to go learn and he's got to come back. But I was sensibility has no allies. No, it doesn't, and it sucks. Well. I think what you don't see, though, in what you don't hear as loud, is all the people who totally agree with you at all think about like politically even you know, in the realm that we're all in. It's like my generation doesn't know what to think because we're like, um, I'm not far right. I'm not far left. I believe this, and I believe that. Like, but like you're not allowed to like if you if you say you are this thing, then you are also all these other things. There's no nuance. So I just think a lot more people fall in the middle on those things and just wholeheartedly agree, Like, yeah, people shouldn't just be canceled. Like it's like third Jesus in here. It's like throw the first stone, draw the line, throw the first stone. He without sin, you know, like all these people who are like the loudest probably about canceling him. I don't know. It's like, all right, well, what have you done perfectly? You know there are consequences to things. Yeah, there's consequences. Absolutely. I was crushed. It was a nightmare for me, and I just I didn't expect to have no But I don't care if people come out and support me, because I've built a career off just saying how I feel in dealing where they go to bad. But I didn't I feel like everyone that would reach out, meaning uh folks through social media. Everybody would be against me because those are the people that that say stuff though, like people that are bold and loud. And but even that with the arrogance in the confidence fine line and if I win the middle and what it's like, well then who are you? What the it's it's difficult and nuances not really, I won't say accepted. Nuance is not really encouraged. It's everything, dude, everything is nuanced. Yeah, it's fascinating when you talk about politics. You know, I I don't say I'm down the middle, but I definitely say I do things and enjoy things on both sides. I'm not down the middle. Yeah I'm not. But did I grow up with guns in a small rural town in Arkansas and I see that as a tool. I also know it can be a weapon. But do I see it as a tool? And we need to describe absolutely? Do I all so think with guns? We shouldn't let idiots get guns and they should have to go through a process a little harder than absolutely. That's nuanced. That is, yes, you're taking a little bit of both sides. And I will scream this and I will say, hey, look, if we want to drive a car, which I'll drive a car to work. Got a license. When I had to drive an eighteen Whelard from my nat GEO show, I had to go and get a different license. It was bigger and it could do more damage. And so when I have a twelve gauge, but then I want to go to one of these. Okay, I'm not a big fan of gum, but I'm not gonna say my my ability what I say goes. So Okay, let's say that gun still exists, but you should probably have to get that eight te wheeler of license to be able to do that. And I think it's like the easiest thing that common sense common sense, But yes, it is tough. And where would you put your confidence? Like when people meet you, will work with you a couple of times, how do they feel about your general demeanor because you are a guy who's done a lot, succeeded at a very high level of confident person. Does it ever come across as too humble or to to too confident? Even man, that is great. I don't know how people perceive me honestly completely, But like I think something that I try to do is create like a comfortable space where people can, like you're doing right now, have a healthy conversation. Have you met with Laura Belts recently nominated for Laura Songwriter of the Year in The Grammy's Unreal. She's been a dear friend of mine. We kind of got started at similar time. You know, she's a little before me. But something I've really respected about our relationship is and if every writer relationship could be like this, I just wish it, and this is what I try to create. But we have We come from very different places, we have very different views on things a lot of times, but we can sit and have a conversation and I mean talk about the world in general, Like that's what's missing, is we're so scared of things that we don't understand and it's generally not as scary as you think, and there's nuance like it's I mean, I remember growing up and thinking totally black and white and certain things that now I'm like, oh my gosh. I mean I just had no empathy for these things. Are didn't know that side of the story because there was no exposure. Probably that's been it for me to write. The more exposure I get. Two things the more I have an empathy or an understanding that I don't understand totally dude. I mean it's it's everything. Yeah, So I don't know. I mean I've definitely I think I can feel it. I feel like the arrogance and confidence thing. But generally speaking, I try. Like I mean, songwriting is such a service industry. Um, It's it's kind of similar to what you do, Like you're really good at making other people look good. It's like that's kind of my job too, um is find like a tasteful way to plot the best things in an artist or best thing in other songs. So I think to do that, you have to create an environment where people are just like totally feel like they're safe to say whatever they need to say. They can be who they want to be. And you know, past a certain level, you know, like we're trying to write like hit songs, we're just not trying to finish the song anymore, you know, So we have to really be nuanced and how we create an environment that feel safe enough to do that? You know what I mean? You grew up in the Midwest? What was home? Like? I was a kid, Um, so both my parents my dad was a music pastor at a pretty big church in St. Louis, and like, we did that all grown up. So I was a p K pastor's kid. That is. Um. So, both my parents and musicians, they never did it, like on a bigger scale. I think they would have, UM, but they try. They actually were in a like a tour. I say that right out of college, um or high school. They went in this like Internationals I think was the name, and they went around and like did acapella music for kind of all over the world. But they got to experience how hard it is though. I mean they knew, yeah, but that was the beauty of it too. Is like I never I came here and went to Belmont, and I never once thought like a creative job was out of the question, just because I saw my dad. You know, I saw my parents doing things that were not My dad is just not the typical dad. You know, my mom's not the typical moment, it's like there was a lot of freedom to be like, all right, you wanna quit taking piano lessons, that's cool, I don't care, you know, like usually it's one of two ways. That's interesting that he was like that because you get parents that are jaded by the experience or the art, even if they're still in it and go, man, I don't want you to do this. Yeah, I already sensed that temptation because we've we've been on the roller coaster of it and seen like the super highs and the super lows and you're just like, oh, I don't know. But in the same breath, I see like the positive side, I'm just so pro like whatever our kids end up wanting to do, like just letting him do it, Like there's gonna be smart kids and they're gonna figure it out. Like I mean, I applied to one school, which is just not crazy to think about, but I just was like, that's what my parents like, we trust us where he wants to go, and he's gonna, you know, if that's what he wants to do, and it worked out. But yeah, it's like trusting that our kids will do them do the same. But did you do music because a like, intrinsically it's just an existence and you you think maybe be genetically because it was in them, or and and is the answer can be there can even be nuance to this answer? Or do you think because of your mom or dad and their love for music. You wanted there to love, so you did what they love, which actually encouraged you to love it more. Wow. What a question, man. You're great at asking questions. That's a good that's a good talent to have to Um, maybe both, maybe a little bit of both. I definitely grew up so I grew up playing classical violin. Like in third grade we had to play an instrument and it was violin. So did you choose violin? I don't remember choosing anything. I just feel like one day I had a violin and then I looked up senior year and I was like, I've been doing this for a long time. Um it, I think like music stuff always came natural. I honestly didn't think about it. I hate it sounds like Braggy's saying that. I just I honestly didn't see myself. So I don't know if you know Cody Fry he um good buddies with Ben Rector that care he played for him. He's DUDEO met a belmat just like Freak. He's a prodigy dude like just genius level musician And I tht oh those huture musicians. But is he is he playing with Ben on his next Yeah, I mean I talked to Been this morning, but I really close crazy Yeah okay, okay, yeah, go ahead. Yeah. So I would see those dudes like musicians. I'm like, oh, codies musician. He knows every single thing he can, you know whatever, And so it wasn't really to a college. I started going like, oh, I think I do have something kind of innately in me, Like I think there's something in me that just like has to get out. And it's wild too, because songwriting. I mean, before I moved to Nashville, I did not know songwriting existed, like I was. I didn't think about I didn't care. So you didn't come here to be a songwriter. You came here for I don't know, finger quotes music. Yeah, I mean I so I got to senior year of high school and I mean I had literally I've just done like hardcore, classical violent. That was like my life. What did you think that was gonna lead to? Was it gonna stop? Like like I played football until twelfth grade, and I played a lot, but I knew it was stopping after twelveth grade the moment I knew. So they have those like all State orchestras or whatever the things, and I just I'm like, I love being around people. I like a deep connection, and I like a good conversation. So I went to this all state thing and in senior year, and it's literally just all about what chair you're sitting in, like, and if you're sitting at the closer chair, you know, to the people, that means you are better than the person next to you whatever as you go up on. So there just wasn't a lot of like relationship in any of that. And I just remember thinking I went to this thing and I was like, I tried to talk to my stand partner and they were just kind of like I didn't want anything to do with it, and I was like, I don't think this is the right place for me. I love music, and so a lot of crowds. To my oldest brother Josh, he uh, he's a like a freak audio guy. He's been with a little big town do in front of house for them for like over ten years. He engineers their records and stuff now, but at the time he was like, why don't you just come to Belmont, like do do a vocal degree? Because girl he was dating at the time was a voice pager. It's so weird to think of all the things that hang in the batch. I like had sung at church, you know, I was in a band, but like loose, I didn't I had know what it was doing. And so my rationale I was like, all right, well, I can teach myself to play instruments, I can't really teach myself to sing, right, So I mean, dude, it's wild thinking, like I just wanted with a voice macher. So me and Russell Dickerson were like in the same major, same time, and we're the only two guys who graduated with that degree at the time too, because everybody usually drops out. That's what am I supposed to do with this degree? So? Wait, so you finished it? You got a voice degree? I sure do. Did you in that process of getting a voice grade, do you study songwriting at all or do you just study is sing better? Does? Yeah? It's mostly just singing better. So it's a commercial voice degree, which means anything but classical. But you also the first two years all you study is classical, which is hilarious. Um. Yeah, it's basically just to like the mean, honestly, the I would do these panels of like perspective. One of the word is students and their parents would come in and they would ask us. Parents was tray to ask you, what are you going to do with a voice major? And I just made something up. I mean, I don't even remember what I said at this point, I would be more honestly, I don't really know. You know. Uh. One of my good friends christ and Rogers, I think is probably doing like the epitome of what you can do with the voice major. And she's like unbelievable b GV. She's like sings with everybody like she is like a professional singer. But did she need that voice degree or or the second part of that is did the process of getting that degree help her achieve the level that she needed or did it just bring her here and then she did it while she was here? I mean, who knows? I think I'm I'm such a I'm so pro I wouldn't change anything because everything got you exactly what you needed. But like I you know, yeah you learned that. And I'm asking because I have a dumb degree to here isn't dumb, but I'm saying people classifies and I also now say it's a waste and I think I was talking to some guys the last time. I said, I went and spoke at a college and said, don't you're here for this, we don't do it, get out, get something else, because yeah, and they told me not to come back. There was a whole situation which kind of a blessing in disguise, you know, less less things to do. Um, So I have radio television, but I started when I was was seventeen, and then I you know, then I wrote in college as well, but it was a I was already doing it, and so I told people to do just go do it well, and that that was always the thing of Belmont. There was the Belmont bubble, you know. It's like we did the showcases and stuff, which was fun and it did bring some cool opportunities, but for the most part, it was always like there were the people who did everything Belmont. There were the people who did things outside of Belmont, and that was the experience. It's just I was just telling somebody that I like, we're just getting to the place now where our friends from Belmont have like kind of powerful positions now at companies and it's kind of starting to pay off. You're like, I remember when I knew none of these A R people, and now these are people are my friends, and I can be like, hey, man, you should check out this song for dust much, you know, like that makes it so much easier and more fun, and it just feels like a family. So yeah, I think I think going through the I needed college. I needed those for you sing better, Like what's the point you definitely do. Yeah, I had a my um my voice teacher's name is Jamie Wingington, and he's, in my opinion, one of the best. Did you want to be a singer when you finished? I've listened to the EP I've heard I've heard your stuff, right, But I wonder what you learned about yourself in the process. Was it because obviously you're having to start songwriting at some point, you didn't know what that was a thing? You're singing your recording you like, were you just experimenting? Definitely? I was flying by the seat of my pants. I was having a blast. Just I was like playing for people. Um. I worked at a urch for a few years and I was leading worship there, so it's like I was using my degree, but I was genuine just like I'm just gonna stumble into something I think I knew like I wanted to be. I did a lot of demo work, like acoustic stuff early on. That's how I f first met John Osborne. Like before brothers Osborne was doing anything, you know, playing sessions and stuff, and man, I stumbled hard into song running. I just had no idea, Like I I it's impossible for me to like give advice to younger people because I'm like, I don't know what you do. You know, like moved to Nashville and just start writing songs. You know, it's like that's the first place. Are you an eternal optimists? Oh? Absolutely, I feel it. Yeah, And you're going you know, I just felt like I stumbled into something. Oh yeah, So in your mind is it just gonna work out? It's always gonna work out. It's interesting I feel that I feel the opposite eternal pessimist. It's oh, man, I wish there was a word for a longer fascinating. I love you. Have you met Jordan Minton another Shawn Marion Towns coming. He's got a couple of hits. One of my best s buddies. He is the same way and we have the best conversations because we view think I'll be so shocked about Wait, what do you mean it's not. Of course it's gonna work out, you know, I believe it's gonna work out for others. Nothing works out for me. That's fascinating. Yeah, nothing works out for me, and if it does, it's because it has had to fail seventy three times and I am just tenacious enough to last to finally make it work out. That's my that's fascinating. Yeah. Completely, it's like and Nope, it's not gonna work. Whatever we're doing a gonna work. So does that mean like you're constantly are you anxious about the future? Where does your brain completely? Yeah? Absolutely, absolutely anxious about everything. I think I'm gonna get sick and die. I think I'm going to the big issue that I've had. What's your Instagram number eight? You're an eight? Yeah? Is that the dictator? Yeah, it's the Yes, I'm that one eight and I'm really close to a one, like it was like so close to being a one ectrotionist. I'm a challenger, that's what I am. Yeah, that's the eight. I would challenge. Um, I'll challenging, but something I know I'm wrong. I'm like, oh, yeah, you think this right, Well, I know that's not right, but I'm my challenge you to beg with you and yeah, but I'm gonna make sure. Um, but I feel like it isn't going to work itself out until I have to break it figure out how to put it back together in its own way that allows me to work it out. That is just it blows my mind. And I'm sure it's trauma. Yeah, yeah, something taught you that somewhere along the way. Or it's love or lack or you know, all these things that we have no idea how they've affected us and when they've affected us. But yeah, my my wife who grew up different than me. She's from a small town in Oklahoma and I grew up small town in Arkansas. We have that in common. They're actually pretty close. Her mom and dad are still together and they're awesome. I never had parents, and so it was like learning a new language and what she struggles with me and I totally understand her not understanding, which I think for me it's a valuable lesson is I now can understand I don't understand things, and why other people can't understand things is that I'm always freaking out that I'm not gonna be able to pay bills soon. And she's like, you'd be like for the rest of your life, You're gonna be fine. And I'm like, but I don't think you understand what if? What if? She goes But she has the hardest time of understanding that all my trauma is rooted in. I can't go back to how it was. Yeah, I will never go back. And I think that's a lot of that is there. Now. I'm a positive person. I am someone who pursues it and love it and put it up and show everybody like somebody like yourself. I praised you around town like this is Jordan. Everybody, I put you up one of those big speakers like Jordan. The most part. You should love them because I love it. I just I wish that was more me. Yeah, man, but I know it, like I know myself. Do you feel like you know your You know yourself now at this point? Do you like yourself? I'm starting to learn myself definitely better. I'm starting to like believe things for myself. I feel like most people do that, like in their twenties, mine didn't really it to like thirties. Um, what has really like kind of made me lock into like the some of these things. But speaking to bed director, he posted some song the other day and like the one of the lyrics said, like I'm I started, I've stopped blaming my parents for everything or whatever it was. And we have two kids now, they're young, it's like three and one. But I already can kind of see some of these things you when we're talking about. Yes, I think trauma does absolutely affect us in certain ways, but there are certain things that are like innately in us, like we're talking about, like with the difference with my little boy my little girl. Already I can be like, oh my gosh, I mean, like we didn't teach my little boy will get like he'll run into the wall face first. I mean, he is bleeding from his nose and he'll just well like, buddy, are you okay? He's like I'm fine, I'm fine. I'm like, You're not fine? Was that you? Um? I don't know. I actually don't know. I didn't ask my mom. But we've never taught him like hey, suck it up, you know, like, don't don't show your emotion. If anything, we are on the other side of that, so like some of those things you're like, you know, you just don't you can't teach, Like maybe it's just in us and nature nurtures this super Like I'm so intrigued and even curious about myself because I never knew my dad. Are you left us? Five and so? But I will run into people from time to time back home that will go, oh, you're just like him, that is Wild. You're you're you're, you're you're quick like him. You said you do multiple things, And I'm like, well, that's weird. I didn't get it from him because I was around him, so whatever it is, it's kind of embedded inside of Wild. And I wondered too, like some of that stuff like skipped around generations and you're like, oh, you're just like you're great grandfathers. Yeah you know what I'm saying, Like some of that stuff to shows up. I don't know your parents, are they they still they're still with us, still with us? Yeah? Yeah, they actually moved um to Hendersonville about ten years. They're here. Yes, they're here. So my oldest brothers here, they're in like Goodlittzville. The only other sibling. H No, I've got another one on his name is Jeremy he is. He was in the UK for a bunch of years. He's an actor and did a lot of theater stuff arts. Yeah, it's crazy. I mean it is kind of wild, um, But I think so much of that is just the belief thing. It's like we all knew we could do it because our parents did. But also the energy that your parents put into letting, because it takes a lot of work for for them to express and prove to you guys that you can go into the work and do whatever you want. Like that's that's a lot of energy from them just to be able to convince you guys that if you do the work, you can do whatever. Oh yeah, I think too. There's some beauty of growing up we weren't. We were lower middle class, you know. And I don't say that to shame my parents. I say it to congratulate my parents. We had an amazing childhood, you know, like it was. It was a beautiful childhood, and my parents did everything they could to make an amazing I never feel like I missed out on anything. Um, But there's like a beauty to growing up with nothing essentially, you know, like we need I have to go on vacation or anything, because when I got into college, like there was no expectation of like, well you better start making six figures, you know, like that was never That's still my parents don't give a crap, you know, they don't care what we're making, Like they just wanted to be doing what we love and like that that I can already like sense that, like, oh is this gonna be different from my kids now because they're going to grow up with a little more means and that like I we're just trying to be very intentional about like not letting that stuff pass off because I think there's some beauty and going like you don't need to do what dad did to be successful, Like that just doesn't matter. I already know that, you know success. Have you read um Psychology of Money? Um? But as money, I usually, uh, I'm scared of it and don't read it and go let somebody else do business managers they're great. Yeah, yes, if now I struggled with that big time, just paying somebody to look at have my money, talked about money letting go of control. It was the hardest I couldn't built. I'm gonna you're you're gonna have access to all the wait what and I'm gonna pay you to have acts and and other people do this. I mean I probably spent multiple multiple therapy sessions just talking about that. That well it's funny because I well, yeah, talk about a difference in our brand. I when we because we have just started working with this finishment in the last few months, and instantly, I mean I had a like my body had a reaction of us having been in a positive way. Like I didn't realize how anxious and stressed I was trying to do it all my own until we gave it. I'm like, within the week, my stomach started feeling better all these things because I was just like, you know what, it's gonna be great now because I don't have to deal with love it. It's just wild. Yeah, I'm envious that that you can do that, and I'm trying to get better at that. Yeah, it's tough because because it hasnt worked out. You know, I'll be honest, I can do that too. I look at myself and go, you know what you say, But well, here's the danger of being in an internal optimist because it's it is like, it's cool. I like this, let's do dangers about danger, let's do let's do pros and con this is good. Do pros first. What's what's the pro of being an eternal optimist? Um, anything is possible, Like any room, Like when I go in to write a song, I say this out loud, I'll say, there is no reason why we cannot write a song of the year today. There's no reason. I mean, like look at I mean, I remember going like when we wrote Tequila, like we weren't even in that headspace yet, and like that can happen. So it's like, gosh, now that we're trying to do it, like we can definitely do it, you know what I mean. Like, So that's the positive. Anything is possible, any write, any combination of people, anything, we can make it work. All right, let me positive. Here's positive being eternal pessimist. You're never disappointed because you are, well, it's gonna happen anyway, You're I'm I'm almost never disappointed because I already don't expect it to work out. So when it doesn't, yeah, uh and you all yeah and you and you rarely get hurt because you are do you expect the worst to happen because it has before it will happen again. So you're almost never disappointed and you never heard. So you're you're you, You're protected by the way. I'm not saying this is the way to go. I'm just saying this is this is the positive about that. I totally get that. Yeah, okay, go with the opposite side of yours. Okay. So, like, speaking of business management, um, I'm telling my friend who's an eight, one of my best buddies. I'm telling him like, because I'm so excited about this, and I'm like, dude, we're gonna do business minute. They're gonna take everything like I don't have to think about it again. And his first thought, I'm thinking he's gonna be like, dude, that's awesome. He's like, yes, So who audits them? And I was like, what do you mean why I don't audit them. He's like, dude, they have complete control over your finances. And I was like, I didn't look at it that way. So the danger can be and you know, I'm like caution, I would say I'm more depending on the situation, I'm more cautiously optimistic, Like when it comes to an investment, like the pro of that, like we got into thirty A because I was just like, let's do it, you know, like we're gonna do it, and took an aggressive move and it really paid off to be down there. But then after that I had to sit and go, this is not going to happen again, most likely, So let's now be cautiously optimistic and not just throw everything at the wall and it's all gonna stick, you know, Like so that those are the you know what I'm saying, Like you can get yourself in trouble thinking everything's gonna work out because realistically, not everything's gonna work out. You buy a lot of crypto, and I bought something it might be working out, but it might work my Okay, here's the bad part about being an eternal pessimist is that it's hard to find real joy. M hmm, hard to celebrate. Oh no, no, no, I never said, I mean, yeah, that's tough. It is. I will tell you that it's hard to celebrate for an optimist too, because is I think part of it is like you think your best days are yet to come, and you're like, oh, this is this is cool, but this is not. This is not gonna be the biggest thing we've ever done. And then you look back on things and you go like that was pretty big. Maybe I should have just been excited when that was happening, Like that's that's where my brain goes. And my wife talked about a good wife, like she's so good about small things now, you know, like going, hey, we just the other night. Doesn't Lynch face time me on a Friday night and he was just I pick up the thing and he's playing this new song that me and Devin Dawson and Lisa Vannerhem wrote and it jacked me up. I don't like, I feel like I wouldn't. Normally I'd be like, okay, cool, Yeah, he's a kind of song. You know that's great, But is it gonna be a single? I don't know how, you know, or you know whatever. So in those moments, like that moment, I sat back down on the couch and I was like, I'm so fired up right now. Like this song that I love, doesn't Lynch his face time me. He's in love with it. Zach crowd loves it. This is sick, you know, Like and my office like wait to go. Oh that's awesome. You know, this is cool. You're celebrating this Moe. I was like, I'm gonna be excited about this, like you know, so that's that's where it can get celebrating. I think either way is tricky. It for different reasons. And I think if it's something cool one, well there ain't never gonna happen again. You're like, well, surely there's another there's not. There's some bigger coming. And I'm like, well, this is it, this is this probably is truly this is the top of the mountain. But my again, my wife, who has been such a great I won't even say counterbalance. I think she's just been She's added complete elements of complete balance or elements because I'm definitely not there. She will force me to, even if I don't fully accept it here and recognize why some little moments should be acknowledged. And sometimes you wouldn't make me say the word celebrate, but she'll be like, okay, cool, well we're we're not gonna be so pump. We're gonna at least acknowledge right now this, even if it means I mean small things. It's like my wife doesn't drink. I don't really drink that much, you know, Like so like alcohol is always the first celebration. I feel like for most people, it's like, hey, we're going to like make a nice meal tonight, or we're gonna go out to dinner to night, and it's like it's not that big of a deal, but we're gonna do something to remember how this felt, you know what I mean, Like, that's just I think it's necessary. I don't want to get the end of all of this and be like, man, I just I just didn't celebrate. I didn't I wasn't excited, and like all these people looking at our lives and going like what you weren't excited about that stuff? Like how could you not enjoy that? You know, I get that from her? How why are you not enjoying this? Yeah, like we'll go on a trip and not in a shameful way, no, not at all. It's like, come on, this is awesome. You know. My wife is very much like, hey, bro, like why do you work so hard all the time and kill yourself and have these huge goals? If you have every once a while, I can't actually celebrate, like can't have some of the spoils that you've worked for. And so we'll be well, you know, we'll go on to trip things like though I wouldn't ever be able to do in my life, and she'll go, look look what you look what we got to do because this is what you like. So so going back to the psychology of money thing, Um, this guy said this, and I've I feel like I have to repeat it to myself weakly, but he said he interviewed all these billionaires in the book is amazing in general. But he um, he's like, what is success? What is wealth? What is success? You ask those people and they said, the ability to wake up and do what you want to do, with who you want to do, for as long as you want to do, And that is true success. You could do that making thirty grand a year, you know what I mean. Like, um, but that's like the beauty. Going back to like this enjoying the spoils of it. There's almost like a thing in our culture of like, well, you're doing it, you're right, so right it all the way out, you know, all the way like take full advantage of it. And in the meantime you're like not getting to spending time with your wife or your kids or whatever. You know, Like it's like you gotta enjoy it, you know, like yeah, that that is the point of all of it, you know, like you in the balance in it. You got a couple of Grammys. Uh yeah, we got one. I mean I thought you got one for maybe two so Dan and Shay one for the accounts tequila in ten thours. You didn't. You don't win Speechless maybe okay? So are you loosely associated? You're loosely grams? I think like three or four okay, but you have one physical one that we just got nominated yesterday for another Christian Grammy Country, right, yeah, for Kan Country. That's awesome. So random. Yeah, um, why Ben Vaughan, you know, Wren travel He uh, he came to me and Josh Kerr. It was like a couple of years ago. Hey, um, He's like, you guys are you guys are Christians? Right? And you write music? You should you should get together with for King Country. And I was like, I know that math makes sense in your head, but I don't write Christian songs like so this could be a train wreck. And literally the first day we got together, we wrote the song God only knows that ended up winning the Grammy. It was like it just started this insane like super cool, you know, i'm CCM is so tricky for me. Contemporary Christian music. Yeah, yeah, now you're in. Now you're in the biz. It can come across cheesy if you're not careful. And so I think, like, what's cool about those guys. They just do such a good job of making like real good music, Like it's really good. We have great conversations about life with those guys. I just love making music with those dudes. They're just wholesome dudes. You do you cut the track, it's out whatever. Was it a success in that world as just a song, Yeah, it was, like I think it was like a fourteen week number one. That's that's success. Yeah, But but that world is a little different than country. It's like what country used to be kind of fourteen weeks or at anything. Yeah, I mean, if I'm playing Madden and I'm I win fourteen super Bowl against the computer on rookie mode, I'm still I was pretty freaking good. That's pretty good, man. I don't I can't actually pretend to completely understand that side of the industry, but like, um, yeah, it was a it was a pretty big success in that world, and it's just cool. I mean, man, I don't I feel like in songwriting I have to do a lot of different things to keep me interested, were inspired, you know, And so those have been just like super fun ways to feel inspired. And you know, like we come into it not being Christian writers and go like what if we said this, and like, gosh, we would never say that in this, you know what I mean. Like that's kind of how I fell getting into country. It was like I don't know the country lingo that well growing up in St. Louis. I've got some country grandparents, you know, But like I had to like kind of fake my way through it until I knew what was going on. But I also had something to say that all the country people didn't have to say, you know what I mean. So there's it's like harnessing that piece of you that's a little different, that's okay. You know, was your first I know your first number one was tequila? Hopefully I'm right on this. Was that your first single was my first single? Are you kidding me? It was the first single in your first number one? Man, we went tequila. Speechless on myself ten thousand hours. Glad, I think I should probably go to Bow before that. And then like Glad you exist we had this ride and I knew it wasn't real. It's like, all right, yes we got into the right time. Yeah, you know, like it it's said horribly unrealistic expectations, even though I knew it shouldn't, you know what I mean, Like, I just had incredibly unrealistic expectations. It's crazy. That was your first single. I'm not even talking about number one because it was such a massive song. And I will also say it was a complete bias. We're very close to Abby and Dan. Yeah, and Dan said he's gonna stop by by the way. Great, I mean, he's around the car. He probably knows the code. I mean, we're my wife and Abby are like best of friends, so we're so that being said, I still that Tequila was such a Donna Donna Donna and then the freak the Jaws just attacked that shark was so big for so long. It was a real staple of that year in country music. And that's your first single. It was crazy. I remember, Um, could you even appreciate it? Yeah, no, no, definitely not. I mean I remember, like vividly, this was the first time this is kind of happening. So before Tequila came out speaking of three day we were down there. We're staying at christ and Hillary's house, Hillary Scott's house, and I had come with my in laws. So I'm playing for my sister in law. She's always been a great like uh test for me. I'll play new songs for him, Like what do you She's just a country listener, you know. So I played her four or five songs we've been you know whatever, and I'm just playing acoustic and I got done with tequila and she was like, you did not write that song? And I was like, I mean, yeah, I did, but it wasn't even like my most I wasn't even most excited about that song. It's like just how we you know. And that was like October so and I was like, yeah, I think it's actually the next Dan and Jay single, you know, like, which is crazy, you know, um, but the first one off that Problem Jake because it was the first project. I remember the new the new aesthetic with that song. Oh yeah, all the symbols and yeah that I mean. Props to Dan and h and Rohan Colie over at Warner like Rohan had just signed on him and Dan have been good buddies for a long time and Um Rohan's first project was basically convincing everyone at Warner that Tequila needed to be the first single. They were not in a stage in their career technically on paper where you could just throw a ballot out as the first single. I don't even know if really anybody's in that stage ever, you know, like it's a tough spot to be in. And Rohan is like, I will put my life on this, which is a I mean, he did so much behind the scenes to make that song happen. You just never know like it. But what it did was it set up the rest of the record to be elevated. You know, like if it had gone you know, all to myself first or whatever else, even like it would have changed the trajectory of that whole project. So the year and or so or nineteen whatever, the year we had lost the c M A and the Grammy and then won the A c M it was a wild Yeah. I remember when it lost the c M A because I was I was with Dan. It was a dark night. It was a dark night, and Dan and I are a lot alike, and we were both pretty o C D about different things. Dance, O C D like crazy. I'm O c D like crazy. He's also doing it crazy and I respect it and love it and but get it. And I remember just going O man. So I just I reached out that night and after we had talked, and I was like, bro, I noticed what I'll be feeling right now. Maybe you're not, maybe you're not, But I felt like that. And I said this in an Instagram even the other day, how Dana had such as with you guys had such a massive collection and it wasn't rewarded when it should have been. So then everyone knew it and started to get rewarded afterward later because of because they were that should have been rewarded. Yeah, isn't that always happens in award shows too? It seems like like the Grammys, like somebody will win the next year. I firmly believe that's why I haven't won the No About Peace Prize yet. Any one more year and the next year, Yes, that's it has to be right, you know, Yeah, I think it could happen. I did feel like you guys hardcore were robbed out of this Song of the Year there, But again, how mad can you be whenever you're on such a run man. I just you know, I have said this to other songwriters. It's like winning awards. Nobody remembers who won the last year. BEFO. We're talking honestly, nobody gives a crap. Absolutely, but winning is sick having an award in your studio. If it helps people like legitimize you or whatever or just trust you more, then that's great. But don't put all your eggs into I've got to win or even I gotta win Songwriter of the Year. It's like we're in the age of Ashley Gorley. You're not winning song at the root. But someone would say, can I counterpoint you? Yes, because I don't believe and I believe what you're saying about the point anyway, Okay, that's cold. Jordan's've written all these number one songs, so shut up and telling me what I should be happy with having. Whenever you came out of the womb with the number one. Yeah, oh, I mean yeah, By the way, I don't I don't even believe what I said right there, but I was just no, it's good to have the countram. I mean yeah, but it's I think sometimes seek validation from what I would consider respected peers. Yeah, and I think because you're right, nobody remembers the awards. They honestly don't. It's always easier when, of course, yeah, a winner saying a ward shows don't matter. It's like, well, easy for you to say, right, yeah. And it's like me trying to host the c M A S. I'm like, eventually they got to give it to me, and so many people, big folks, Hey, it doesn't matter, nobody cares. But I'm like, no, no, that's been that's been what I've been working toward forever. But it's a personal thing, right, And it does always seem to go that you don't know what you got, know that, like you you know, once you get the validation, say you're a country artist, you get the validation of country radio. Bobby Bones is on your team and he's playing your music. Rarely actually does that line up with a lot of the award show nots now maybe a c M s are a little more like commercial friendly kind of vibes, especially Grammys. Dan and Shay The fact that they get nominated for Grammys and have radio success is like, that's that's a unicorn, you know, like usually one comes without the other. It's just almost you have to have such unparalleled success to even be in the Grammy slash Commerce. Yeah, and and they've done it. It's super crazy. Yeah, Yeah, it's super cool. Are you because when I think of you, I obviously know all the songs that you've written for Dan and Shade because of my personal relationship with that group. Are you in a lot of people's minds that got the Dan and Shade team? Guy? It's a great question, man. I like me and my publisher talked about that stuff. We kind of like early on because I also do tracks, and I was like, I don't want to be another track boy, you know, I want to be I want people to know that I'm a songwriter all these things. I think we were just very intentional early on about going we're gonna get in a lot of different camps. We're gonna really like try to spread this out. And I think I kind of pride myself in being able to be a chameleon and like whatever room we're in, you know. So I think I'm sure there are like people who are surprised when they come in there, Like I thought you were just like the pop country dude, and we write like a super country song or something like. I think that has definitely been a fear of like, I don't want to just be the pop country doude, especially a time where pop country is not cool right now. You know it seemingly it's like I think in the writer's room, you know, just having those relationships to their writers. I don't think that's necessarily I could be wrong, though, that could be the eternal optimist of me. You know, it's funny about pop country, and you're right, but it's still circles all the way back. We're talking about a minute ago or forty five minutes ago. Is that okay? Pop country? Let's say it's not cool because it is not cool. However, just like I said, there's no sensible it's still the most consumed. It's still but nobody's coming up going. I'm a huge fan. It's like the weekend. Do you ever meet somebody it's like on the biggest weekend fan. No, but you know, strange, like crazy the freaking weekend. I looked up Khaleg the other day, like I don't feel like I've heard I mean, you have heard his songs recently, but like he has like fifty million monthly listeners on Spotify. There are a lot of people who love it, but there's just no need for them to scream because they don't feel like anybody is doing them a disservice. Yeah, definitely, and like they already pop country was already on top. It's like you don't have to root, you know, like we don't have to know that you're a fan of Alabama, you know what I mean. Not this year obviously, but like if you've already done it, you're like, yeah, you've already done it. It's like we talked about with kids. When you have your first kid, people are like, oh my gosh, we're so excited you've announced you having your second kid. They're like, okay, cool, you already had a kid, you know, like that's just gonna happen. Did you get to meet Dolly? No? I didn't. Josh Kerr did he? Like I think he got a tracker on the thing. But no, it would have been sweet, it would have been well, so it could happen. It's amazing to me that she wanted Grammy and didn't even show. I mean, that's that's a power move. You know, you're getting no more powerful than Dolly. It's it's phenomenal. You're going to go, Yeah, we'll go. Have you You've been every time you've been nominated, Yeah, it is. It a pretty cool trip though, dude, it's one of the coolest trips. The last one was weird because it was and Kobe died that day. That day, it was literally we were in the elevator like going down to the main spot and it was like, Kobe Bryant has died in a helicopter crash outside of l A. We're like, what, so we won a Grammy and the pretail by this thing. Walk outside there's just thousands of people out there, just surreal, like, but man, LA is such a magical place. I love going out there, and yeah, it's just such a fun thing. How do you not write the same song. You've gotta find ways to be inspired by new things. That's like what I was saying earlier of like I can't just write super country songs, or I can't just write pop country, or I can't just write pop or Christian. It's like you have to have a well balanced diet and that like inspiration is just like everything, you know, Like when you're trying to get a hit, if you're not inspired by the idea you're writing in the room, or if it doesn't make you just go like, oh my gosh, like, let's just chase it till we do find that. So I mean that that's the easiest way, like finding new sounds, writing on different guitars, I mean, but also still borrowing, you know, like you don't throw the baby out with the bath war, like borrow the things that did work and transplant those into the new songs. You know, Like do you ever find yourself inadvertently pardon the word, stealing a song from yourself? Oh, definitely yeah, And you have to go, oh, well, yeah that's me, but I can't oops. I mean yeah, typically the first person in the room to be like, even if I don't know what it is, I'm like, doesn't this sound like something? And shouldn't we be careful? You know? Um? But yeah, that's just natural. I mean, we only have so many things in our brain that our brain naturally goes to. You are you constantly thinking of song concepts, titles and or melodies? Always trying to think of concepts? I mean, to me, that is the basis of all music, but specifically country music, Like that's the inspiration point. You know, what is the concept that you knew immediately, kept savored, treasured and it turned out to be something. Dude, this is gonna sound like I'm making this up or like rose colored glasses? What are I had the idea for tequila had when I taste tequila, and there's only been a couple of those moments that I was like, this is definitely a song. I had that and then um, in the same time period, I had an idea called what Keeps You Night that was on the Dana Sha record. It was like the only outside song on that, Like you just get a feeling because it feels like I can already see the song, like I can see the whole thing from looking at the title. Um, it wasn't my title, but ten thousand hours was like that for me. Dan said that title. We did like a writing trip before the Grammys in l A, I guess in twenty nineteen whatever year was, and he had thrown out that title in the room and nobody bit on it, and I was like, dude, I am obsessed with that title. I forgot about it. Like three months later, We're right with Jesse Joe Dillon, and I was like I've got this title ten thousand hours, and I was like, do we have to write that? Like that is? That is a smash? I don't even know however, way we do that, like we will make sure it's right, you know. Like, but there's only a few of those kind of songs. And I feel like, why do you think certain songs resonate within yours with within oneself more than others, because you're thinking of all of them, Like, what do you think it is? I mean, it could be so many. I think it's nuanced. We haven't said that in a while. I think it's time bring back. What's so tricky is like something that really inspires you may not inspire me or vice versa um or you I might just not catch the vision for it or whatever. But like, I mean, it's probably because it's reminding us of something else we love and we don't quite know it. I mean, most likely, it's like when you see someone on the street and you're like, wow, that person is really attractive. It's like, oh, it's because it looks like my cousin. Well, that's a weird life you live. I was trying to pull on the and then you went there, good, good, good. You get in a room with a new songwriter somebody like this person is really great. You should spend some time with them, and they say, Jordan's and what do I need to know about this town? And this like help me out because and it's somebody that you see is raw but really good. What do you tell that person because I'm sure this has happened to you many times? Um, what's crazy is you kind of already can tell. And I always felt this way, like coming up like people back, oh, dude, you're gonna have hits, no problem, And I'm back, well that why don't you tell the artist I'm writing with that Like I can't get a you know, hit to say in my life. But like there's a certain like personality type and talent level that like even if they're not quite there, you can be like that person is going to do it. So it's not it's like less even like giving specific advice. I think about. There's this girl, Mackenzie Carpenter. She's a new um artist in town. Everybody's been talking about her. She's amazing, is it? And I wrote her the first time and I was just like, yep, she's got it, like she has she has the personality to do it. She's got the look, she's got like all the things amazing writer. And I was like, we don't really have to tell you anything, just like keep your head down and keep writing songs. Don't be um, don't be upset if you're not getting in the rooms that you want to get in. Um. Things that I have to still tell myself is like, sometimes you're still just not ready. That doesn't mean you're not talented enough, but it might mean you don't have the skill set that you need. It's like the amount of times I've written a song and the next week I'm writing with a new artist and I'm like, or with an artist that I've been trying to get in with. It's like I just learned this little trick that now is going to be in this song, and I'm like, oh, what if I hadn't written this song today to get me prepared for that. Like that's a close example, but like just be okay, like waiting it out a little bit, if that's what it means, Like you want people to be excited to get in the room with you, But that's advice you said. You don't have any advice to tell them and then you said I don't have anything. But here's what I would say. You did say it. That's great advice. I lied, Yeah, I definitely lied. What's better? It's okay to lie here what's better songs? So it is okay to lie? Absolutely? Okay, good, Yeah, most of this has been alive. By the way, I'm not even here. This is a recording of me Mike's pushing a button ball wall a wall. It is compressive. Yeah, it's difficult for me to talk to a wall though. That is that is It's difficult, but it's impressively technology. Um, what was the question better songs? Yeah? So um started with a buddy of mine wh's actually my lawyer, Sam's Chase Neely, and I just like, I love talking about songwriting. I could just talk about songwriting forever. And um, my buddy Chase has actually done this kind of program with a few other people, like authors and stuff and kind of like the master class kind of feel, but this is geared towards new writers. Um, just like getting your footing and like just going deep into like actual things things that like you wouldn't have to really tell a new writer who's already signed. It's like going past the point of what you think you need to explain and explaining that stuff like here's rhyme schemes. Here are the simple rhyme schemes. You know, kind of starting in that that world. Um, but I'm just like passionate about songwriting. I love songwriting that much. They're like, we're just gonna throw a bunch of you and you can just talk and talk about songwriting. And I was like that sounds great. So yeah, we've been doing it for it's about a year now. We just kind of started this subscription part of it. But I got to interview a bunch of my good friends and stuff. Just recently into like a well week long virtual semit thing. I have to do like podcast kind of thing and talk to all these people about song Right. It's just so fun for me. I love it. And that's a Better Songs dot com bet com. What's that gonna run me? Uh? For you make a deal? You can also follow on Instagram at Better Underscore Songs Underscore. This is a really softball question, but a real answer. What is your favorite song that you've written that you're most proud of and it it could be forced for a success, It could be for something that took you a year to actually finish, or it could be a message I don't I don't really care, and I'm actually vamping to give you time to think right now. Yeah, it's so, it's it's such a broad question. But what's your favorite song that you've written. It's difficult because favorite, you know, like, I'm just attaching all these feelings to these things and the song talk about a softball answer. The song that really I do feel that way about is Tequila. Like it's to me like the best representation of what I love to do, you know like, and just like simple and make somebody feel something, you know like, and the fact that it was my first thing I feel like people that was always like a fear of mine in a weird way. I didn't think about it a lot, but like I had buddies who had hits early on, and they just like weren't proud of them like we do like writer's rounds, and like, I'm not gonna play that song. I'm like, dude, it's a hit. People love this and they're like, I just don't. I don't think it represents me that well. And I was like, oh, I hope I don't have one of those, you know, So it's so fun like having I feel that way about I mean, all the hits, but like specifically Tequila. It's like it's just so sick being like, I'm so proud of how this song turned out. Dan crushed the production, Like the piano thing is my piano that I created in logic, like when I first started doing tracks, and now know that like that was the reason I created that piano was to be in Tequila, you know, like just wild. You know that kind says I'm super proud of that song. I think I always will be too, I mean realistically, And this is not the eternal optimist to me because even as I'm saying, I don't believe it, but it's like when I die, it'll probably be like Jordan Reynolds, songwriter of Tequila, you know, like that realistically will probably be it. I don't believe that because I can't exist that way. But um yeah, which song was the most tedious to finish of your hits? That we would know? That is a great question. Honestly, probably speechless because we were so into the records. He was already done, the album was done, like he was about ready to turn it in. Dan texting me like nine pm on Thursday night was like, hey, I got this last idea. I just remember being very like we combed through that stuff so hard, like just to make sure because we're like, I mean, this is our last shot. If if this is not going to beat anything on the record, this song disappears, so like, let's make sure this is it. I mean, it's funny because I try to not think of it as work. You know, it's hard to remember. And but we've been doing a lot more rights recently where we break it up into two days and we like let it be tedious, you know, like in a good way, so you don't force all right, guys, it's three o'clock. We we gotta finish it. Yeah, you just purposefully you go, we're not going to finish it today. Yeah, Oh that's there. Yeah. I like that. There's there's been a little too much empasis on success being finishing a song in a day. The efficient part of me doesn't like it, but I like it the creative side of me because I'm running dual dual sides here, like I'm running business, but I'm also like I have be super creative. The creative side of Me's like, oh, I'm not supposed to finish to days. I just I can relax and get to that place where I'm my most creative, Like that's great. Oh yeah, and I'm a three on the Instagram, which is the achiever, which means I like to finish things like and so it's a good exercise for me to go. It's okay to take a break and step away and go let's hear with fresh ears, Like does that really hit? Like we think it's hitting, you know, like how can this be elevated? How can that second verse even better than when we think it is? Just from listening again, you know, getting away from it. What do you want to say now about Dan and Shade and music? You've've written some stuff and yeah, man, I'm I'm really excited for this new phase for them. I think, like, you know, as things have got more country, Like if there is anyone who just is a genius when it comes to figuring out music industry stuff is Dance Mars, Like he's he's known it and no he's not perfect, nobody's perfect, but like he has such a like gauge on what's happening, Like I think the next album is gonna be so sick. He's been playing me stuff and Okay, I'm glad you said it because I wasn't saything about record. But yeah, cool, yeah, you're you're in the mix. Then good. Yeah, I wasn't gonna say that, or I was gonna then say, I'm like, I don't know. I didn't talked to Dan in weeks. We were at a charity event together and he was like, hey, we'll record, you know, just so yeah, great, good things are happening. I think it's gonna be really good. And you know, I mean, it's so funny you thinking about Danna say, like we think of them as pop country. You can listen to the Dan Chase self to out elements like it's not really that poppy. It's still full band and you know, like it's just not that big of a departure. But the songs are great and I think they're fired up. Say sounds better than he's ever sounded in his life, which is even difficult to believe that he could sound better than he does. But are you fired up? Are you excited? Oh? Yeah, yeah, I'm sticked. I don't want you to give an answer here, don't be specific, but you ever get a song back to your written and you're like, oh, that's what they did with it, not even them, but anybody. Oh yeah, I oh yeah, man, I feel it's it's few and far between, thankfully. Um. That's part of the reason I got into doing tracks and stuff was to be able to have a little bit of influence in that world. But like I would say, by and large, like I trust the Nashville producers, and if like we also have the report with now that like I think I could, they might ask like hey, like where they're gonna ask for tracks, they're gonna do something that we're I'll still have some influence. I'm not typically worried. There have been a few surprises. Are you working on anything solo? Uh? I mean I'm always kind of like dabbling for fun. It's not like the thing I prioritize. Really, I've been trying to write solo and think like what would I just do? You know, But in the back of my mind, I'm always like, who could this be for? You know, it's just gotten too easy righting other people. So now you're you're like leveling up, like go on level four, Donkey Kong. That's where it's jumping right by myself with one year Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Well listen, man, i I'm just I'm a big fan. I guess I'm a big fan of you personally because I just have so many people that are in both of our I don't have a very big circle. I stay pretty private. But when you have people that you really value and they also value somebody, you then value them through association and just appreciate and just know that. That's like a good dude. And so you've always kind of been that, even though we've not spent any time together. So I was excited that you were coming over today. And can I tell you the first time I gained some serious respect for Bobby Bens By the way, I would love to hear this story. I'm always weird about it because I want to hear it, but I don't want to, but I don't. Can actually the awkward? But no, this is good. Have we ever met? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, so this is this is that story. Okay, this is a great story. Okay, read and it can be tell the whole truth. Even make me look good. This makes you look great, honestly, what makes you look really good? So week of I mean, this is this beenen when that self titled album came out and Danna say this is gonna I don't know if I'm allowed to say this is my might break the rules here, see behind the curtain here. But so Dana were doing a week of album released with Bobby Bones albums coming out on whatever Friday. Every day they're coming in and playing so Dan and she asked me, will you just come play keys with us? Were really like cus Well, We're like, hey, they're actually gonna film along one day. That's the part that no one's supposed to. It's okay, infod listen to this. I let him know we recorded stuff in debate. Appreciate that. Yeah, you can cut it off. So, um, we show up with four outfits. You know, it's four days. So we do the first one. I'm wearing like all black, and we finished and we're like, all right, let's get ready for the next one. And I was like, all right, what should I wear? And you kind of chimed in. You're like, man, are you just gonna be You're sitting in the same spot and I was like yeah. He's like You're like, dude, don't worry about it. Just you can keep the same thing on. I was like, are you sure, Like, like, dude, yeah, it doesn't matter. It's all good, you know, just like totally chill. And I was like, all right, cool, So Danna sha change. We get set up. We rolled the second one. We're going it's the next day. You know. It's like, hey, everybody, you know, Bobby Bones here whatever. We got Danna Shay and again, and they're like, yeah, we're gonna play this song speech less. We actually wrote with our buddy here and you go hold on his saying, this guy back here. He was here yesterday, right, And they're like, yeah, yeah, he's here. He's like he's wearing the same outfit that he wore yesterday. And I was like, I didn't even have a mic. I couldn't respond. And I was like, you dog, I was like instant respect. I was like, man, that that is that's funny. That's the next level comedy. That's funny. I mean, I'm laughing at that. I don't remember out that was funny. Bro. It was like, all right, I think I could hang with this from on enjoyment. That's classic. It was awesome. I've told that a lot of people's funny. I don't think I knew what to expect, Like I just I was just like stoked to be there, and so I think the fact that that happened, I was like, Man, he's a good dude. That's a good dude. He's got it, he's got it. Oh that doesn't like me saving a kid from a well or something. That turns out to me, Yeah, that's that is great. Well, you guys follow Jordan Jordan K Reynolds. I'm a big fan. You are remarkably warm to be around. Like from from the minute I walked in and we sat down. I've done this enough times in one form or the other. Either I click with someone, I can click with someone, or I don't and we get through it. But like you're easily You're just a guy that I think you just like you. Thanks, super talented, you don't have to be likable. Um, I've really enjoyed the last hour we've been. We've just over and I've really enjoyed it. So thanks you were that last time you're here, though, So it's kind of weird. I'll probably again wouldn't be funny. I every time I see him now, he's just in the same clothes as the kind of make it a point. I'll keep it with me just in case. Around into you. What are you doing the rest of the day. Uh, well, we're about to head to Texas. So my sister in law's wedding. Okay, let's say congrats to Caitlin. You know, well, congratulate. By the time you hear this, you'll be married. Caitlin. Congratulations. I can't believe you're getting married. I knew all these years, I said, I said to Jordan, I said, when Caitlin finds him. And when I mean him, I mean Jack Jack. You might have even said, yeah, why I said Jack or Jackie boy, I can't remember j j Um. I knew it was him, Caitlin. And so congratulations. This is gonna last a long time. And wait till you hear the song Jordan wrote just for you. He was playing it for me on the phone. So at the wedding them play yeah, Jordan, thank you, buddy. You guys follow at better underscore songs, underscore and at Jordan Kay Reynolds and I think anything else, Mike, We're good, all right, We're good. There is is Jordan Reynolds