321 | Managing Repetitive, Attention-Seeking Behaviors in the Playroom: Staying Neutral in CCPT

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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I am answering a question from Zoe in Texas.

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And I

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have the sense that it's probably

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Zoe et al.

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So I,

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I think one of the emails said that the

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whole team there is anxiously awaiting the reply.

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So hello to the team in Texas with Zoe.

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All right,

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so this is about a client who consistently farts in session.

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And it's funny because we talk about stuff like this all the time in the coaching,

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and so I don't think I've ever talked about it on the podcast before,

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but I'm glad that we're able to process this.

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So let me read parts of the email and then we'll dive in together.

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My colleague has a client that is 8,

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private adoption with level 2 autism.

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The client is obsessed with farting.

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She will chant the word fart fart on demand,

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sometimes 15 times in a 45 minute play session,

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and laugh.

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The client knows what she's doing.

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She will ask,

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Can you smell it?

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and watch the therapist as she farts,

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and the intention seems to be to get under the

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skin of the therapist or the individual that she's around.

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This session,

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the client farted so intensely that she farted off the chair and broke the chair.

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This play theme has been going on for 12 sessions.

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She was reducing the amount of farting for a while,

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but now she's back to doing it.

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We are stuck.

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We don't know what to do in regards to reflections,

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limit setting,

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and are at a loss.

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Any help would be appreciated in regards to this,

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particularly,

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I'm curious as to how to set limits on somatic behaviors.

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For limit setting with toys,

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you can phrase choosing for the toy to be gone for the rest of the session,

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but for farting,

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I'm struggling to see how to make an appropriate limit,

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knowing that time in the playroom can't be taken away nor added to.

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All right,

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so

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thanks for the question,

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Zoe and team.

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Basically what

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we need to think about when it comes to behaviors like this,

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and we're going to enlarge this a little bit for discussion purposes

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to beyond just farting.

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In other words,

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sometimes it's

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noises that kids make incessantly,

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sometimes it's

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sounds,

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sometimes it's repetitive behaviors

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that are

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very clearly with intention.

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But we kind of have to reverse engineer the

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whole process of figuring out what's going on.

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So yes,

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farting is an option,

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but sometimes it's just any repetitive consistent behavior

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and we typically want to go back to the beginning.

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So I suspect,

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and this is typically what I tell parents,

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this is what I tell a therapist,

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I suspect

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that initially

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she just naturally farted and she got a reaction from it.

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Whether at school,

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whether with peers,

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whether with parents,

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whether with teachers,

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whomever,

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she probably got a reaction

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and so what happened as an innocent scenario

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over time kids learn

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that

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that behavior

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evokes a response so there can be different motivations

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for the reaction.

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So in your email you said

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you think that it's to get under the skin of the person

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possibly,

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but possibly not.

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It can be attention seeking behavior.

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It can be to irritate someone.

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It can be a power and control grab

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because they like the fact that they have power and control over the person

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when they create a reaction in that person.

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It,

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I mean,

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imagine like a little marionette,

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right?

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So watch this.

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Oh my gosh.

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OK,

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hold on,

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I have to tell a really quick story.

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So every time we go to baseball games,

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y'all know how much I love baseball.

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Every time we go to baseball games,

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they play the little

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segments of music,

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like when,

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you know,

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the,

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there's a mound visit or when there's a new batter,

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there's always a little bit of a lull.

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So the stadium

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sound system will play some little snippet of a song usually.

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And it's these like crowd engagement songs.

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So everybody clap your hands and like on cue,

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the whole stadium starts clapping.

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Or you know,

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um,

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where they go,

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whatever the little ditty is,

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and then you go charge.

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OK,

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so I've said every time I'm there,

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I'm like,

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this just irritates me because whoever is up there pushing those buttons,

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it's like they can just watch and go,

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I can control everybody in the stadium.

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All I have to do is push this button and I can make people do what I want them to do.

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OK,

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so

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that just my weirdness at baseball games,

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and I,

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I'm the one that does not participate,

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by the way.

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I don't do the wave.

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I don't do any of that stuff.

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Anyway,

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I know,

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don't go to baseball games with me.

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I'm so boring.

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I'm scoring the game and I'm like,

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don't talk to me.

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Don't do anything ridiculous.

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Just let me focus on what's going on.

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All right,

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so let's get back to the scenario in the,

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in the playroom.

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There are often times when kids are like,

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oh wow,

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look,

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I can make someone do exactly what I want.

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I can make them get angry,

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I can make them get frustrated,

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I can make them yell,

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I can make them sigh,

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I can make them do whatever.

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So that can be a motivation.

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In the,

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in this case specifically,

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she

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has been adopted.

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She is on the spectrum.

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She probably likely feels very awkward,

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very uncomfortable.

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There's social stuff going on,

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I'm sure

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there's relational stuff going on,

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and oftentimes kids will maladaptively cope with scenarios like that

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where

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the premise is if I

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do whatever.

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Then other people will not expect

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more of me,

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or I can make people already not like me so then

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they won't not like me for other reasons or I can

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make people really uncomfortable because then they're

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not gonna be uncomfortable for these other

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explanations.

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And it's all subconscious,

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so it's not like she's actually cognitively processing this stuff,

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but that is also a very common pattern in children.

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That are struggling,

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they purposefully create scenarios and environments where

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people will leave them alone,

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people will not engage,

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people will dislike spending time with them,

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and it's actually means to an end for them.

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Good.

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Now you have no expectations on me.

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You don't expect me to hang out with you and get along with you,

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so it can be maladaptive coping in certain scenarios as well.

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So Zoe,

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I think in this case.

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Drilling down to the why and sometimes it's observation,

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it's watching for patterns.

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It's noticing what the consistency of the behavior is.

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You can drill down what is likely at the heart of that.

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If parents are reacting

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overtly.

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If other people in her life are reacting overtly,

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then we know that

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she's aware that she can get a specific reaction or attention.

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And therefore we have to also then psycho educate other people in her life

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to

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handle those situations differently so she doesn't continue with the pattern.

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I had a boy I was working with,

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and

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he didn't,

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he did it in the playroom every once in a while,

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but more often than not it was at home.

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And dad didn't really care.

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Mom,

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it drove her up the wall.

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He made this really high pitched squeal.

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And she's like,

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I,

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he does it so many times a day,

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and I'm just to the point where I want to just shut

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him in his room and not let him out and I just,

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I can't deal with it anymore.

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And so the challenge for that mom

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was

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starting to respond really neutrally,

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starting to respond really factually with no emotion,

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no reaction whatsoever.

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So I helped her to just say,

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oh,

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you chose to make that noise.

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And she was like,

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that is not gonna work.

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That's going to give him permission to keep doing it.

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And I was like,

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everything you've tried has not worked.

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So I suspect that maybe you could try something different.

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So how about we just give this a shot.

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And so at first he kept doing it and

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then over time he just slowly reduced and then completely

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abandoned the whole noise making

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and she was like,

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Brenna,

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I thought you were nuts when you said that,

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but what what I explained to her is

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it took away

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the purpose for him,

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the purpose for him.

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was

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create some kind of outcome.

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Well,

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he started getting a completely different outcome

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and it didn't serve his needs anymore.

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When all the mom said was,

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oh,

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you're making that noise again.

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It completely

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dismissed any need for engagement or reaction or

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attention or whatever and so it stops.

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Now another consideration is

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at a certain point these behaviors almost become habitual

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and they don't even really know that they're doing it anymore.

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It has become such a pattern of behavior.

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They're not even necessarily cognizant of it.

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So also sometimes just acknowledging what happened,

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it brings it to the child's attention.

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And then they're able to be like,

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oh,

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yeah,

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I didn't even realize I was doing that.

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That can also be self-corrective in and of itself.

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All right,

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so I wanted to get into kind of the,

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the why in the background before I actually tackle what's happening in the session.

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So with

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a scenario like this,

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where a child is farting,

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I mean,

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falling off the chair and breaking the chair,

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I mean,

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00:09:29,849 --> 00:09:30,409
that's,

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that's really kind of an interesting scenario.

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But generally speaking,

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I think Zoe and your colleagues,

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if the response is just

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00:09:40,809 --> 00:09:41,450
you farted.

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00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:44,580
You wanted to know if I can smell it.

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You think it's funny when you fart.

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You farted again.

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If there's just acknowledgement.

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I think that that will inevitably change behavior

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because

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again there's a why behind the behavior

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and

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as she

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00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,789
increases self-confidence in play therapy as she increases

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regulation in play therapy as she increases worldview

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00:10:09,479 --> 00:10:10,479
in therapy.

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She will need to do those kinds of things less and less,

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so it's going to kind of come from both sides.

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I think the therapist's reaction being completely neutral

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and factual without any kind of reaction

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and the work that she's doing internally.

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We will eventually see those converge where she will no longer do this,

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and this happens over and over and over again,

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very irritating,

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repetitive,

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00:10:37,919 --> 00:10:40,030
almost kind of conditioned behaviors

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00:10:40,239 --> 00:10:41,440
that children will do

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00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,469
they naturally sort themselves out.

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00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:44,960
This is similar to ticks.

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00:10:44,979 --> 00:10:48,400
A lot of times ticks will emerge in the playroom and they go away.

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00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,789
A lot of times kids will start making noises or screeching

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or yelling or doing whatever random thing that they do and eventually it goes away.

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Because

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it's really dysregulation

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that's at the heart of it

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more than it is anything else.

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So as kids become more regulated,

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they no longer need to do that.

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As far as limits,

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those behaviors don't warrant a limit.

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00:11:12,890 --> 00:11:16,000
Now maybe falling off the chair and breaking the chair

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00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,099
could be a limit only because first of all,

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that's a safety issue.

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Second of all,

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it's a property getting damaged issue.

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So that could warrant a very specific limit,

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such as.

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Whoa,

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you farted so hard you fell off the chair and it broke.

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00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:34,429
If you choose to fart in here,

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you choose to make sure that nothing gets broken and you're safe.

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00:11:38,979 --> 00:11:41,140
You could have a very neutral limit on

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00:11:41,140 --> 00:11:44,049
the safety and the property getting damaged scenario,

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00:11:44,219 --> 00:11:47,489
but as far as a limit on the behavior itself,

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it's not warranted.

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It's maladaptive coping,

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it's attention seeking,

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it's for reaction,

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it's because it's just a pattern of behavior.

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I mean,

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00:11:56,099 --> 00:11:57,090
there's all kinds of

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00:11:57,380 --> 00:11:58,869
potential reasons.

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00:11:59,419 --> 00:12:01,770
The goal is unconditional acceptance.

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The goal is be with attitudes.

353
00:12:04,929 --> 00:12:06,450
And the more neutral,

354
00:12:06,609 --> 00:12:08,609
that's why I did an entire series on neutrality,

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00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:10,570
the more neutral that we can be.

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00:12:11,479 --> 00:12:14,140
The more impactful it will be for her

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because in any other environment with any other person,

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she's going to get a reaction

359
00:12:20,590 --> 00:12:21,700
whether it's a laugh,

360
00:12:21,869 --> 00:12:23,539
whether it's a eye roll,

361
00:12:23,789 --> 00:12:26,020
whether it's a demand to stop,

362
00:12:26,309 --> 00:12:27,979
whether it's consequence,

363
00:12:28,429 --> 00:12:31,219
whether it's embarrassment because people make fun of her,

364
00:12:31,450 --> 00:12:32,539
uh who knows.

365
00:12:33,190 --> 00:12:36,789
So the only relationship and the only environment in which she's

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00:12:36,789 --> 00:12:40,390
going to receive unconditional acceptance is with you in the playroom.

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And that's the beauty of CCPT.

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00:12:44,039 --> 00:12:44,460
It

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00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,530
provides conditions

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00:12:47,059 --> 00:12:49,210
that the child is able to

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self-actualize.

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She does not want to stay stuck in a pattern of farting.

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No kid wants to stay stuck in this regulation.

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00:12:58,109 --> 00:13:00,580
No kid wants to stay stuck in dysfunctional behavior.

375
00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,090
And the fact that she's stuck here,

376
00:13:04,380 --> 00:13:05,530
there's a reason for it,

377
00:13:05,739 --> 00:13:07,169
and there's a pathway out.

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00:13:07,619 --> 00:13:10,020
But the pathway out is predicated on the

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00:13:10,020 --> 00:13:12,700
conditions of the relationship and the environment.

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00:13:13,590 --> 00:13:15,130
And the CCPT way,

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00:13:15,380 --> 00:13:16,090
which is,

382
00:13:16,340 --> 00:13:16,630
I'm here,

383
00:13:16,739 --> 00:13:17,250
I hear you,

384
00:13:17,260 --> 00:13:17,780
I understand,

385
00:13:17,859 --> 00:13:19,330
I care and I delight in you,

386
00:13:19,340 --> 00:13:20,890
and I unconditionally accept

387
00:13:21,140 --> 00:13:23,260
no matter how many times you fart in session.

388
00:13:24,479 --> 00:13:28,109
And that over time will decrease the need.

389
00:13:28,169 --> 00:13:29,919
It will decrease the

390
00:13:30,190 --> 00:13:31,739
reaction that she's seeking.

391
00:13:32,250 --> 00:13:35,210
So everything will naturally kind of level itself out,

392
00:13:35,630 --> 00:13:37,979
and that's the beauty of CCPT.

393
00:13:38,539 --> 00:13:39,659
So Zoe and team,

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00:13:39,789 --> 00:13:40,710
thank you for the email.

395
00:13:40,750 --> 00:13:42,260
I hope that's helpful for you all.

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00:13:42,510 --> 00:13:45,059
If you would like to have me answer a question,

397
00:13:45,349 --> 00:13:47,979
please email me brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

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00:13:48,150 --> 00:13:53,789
You can also leave a voicemail at 813-812-5525 if you're in the states.

399
00:13:54,229 --> 00:13:54,700
By the way,

400
00:13:54,739 --> 00:13:55,940
if you are not in the states,

401
00:13:56,099 --> 00:13:58,690
thank you to all of you international listeners.

402
00:13:58,979 --> 00:13:59,369
This

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00:13:59,659 --> 00:14:01,450
community has grown so much

404
00:14:01,820 --> 00:14:04,140
and more and more people listen every day.

405
00:14:04,299 --> 00:14:05,039
So if you are new,

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00:14:05,179 --> 00:14:05,619
welcome,

407
00:14:05,820 --> 00:14:06,890
so glad you're here.

408
00:14:07,260 --> 00:14:07,809
And

409
00:14:07,979 --> 00:14:10,780
if you are not in the states and you

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00:14:10,780 --> 00:14:15,570
are practicing CCPT learning CCPT and embracing the model,

411
00:14:15,859 --> 00:14:17,140
we're so glad you found us.

412
00:14:17,179 --> 00:14:18,929
We're so glad that we are

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00:14:19,059 --> 00:14:21,210
a universal and global.

414
00:14:21,809 --> 00:14:22,169
Team

415
00:14:22,809 --> 00:14:24,799
in serving kids and their families

416
00:14:25,369 --> 00:14:26,880
with child-centered play therapy.

417
00:14:27,250 --> 00:14:28,000
By the way,

418
00:14:28,210 --> 00:14:30,320
little anecdotal update.

419
00:14:30,570 --> 00:14:34,049
I know on a couple of episodes earlier I mentioned that

420
00:14:34,409 --> 00:14:38,039
we only are able to display the most recent 300 episodes and

421
00:14:38,039 --> 00:14:40,419
so the early episodes are going to be harder to find.

422
00:14:40,890 --> 00:14:41,219
Mya,

423
00:14:41,489 --> 00:14:42,679
my incredible.

424
00:14:43,359 --> 00:14:44,380
She does everything for me.

425
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:45,719
I don't even know what to call her anymore.

426
00:14:46,250 --> 00:14:46,460
She,

427
00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:47,880
she's my right hand,

428
00:14:47,919 --> 00:14:48,909
all things.

429
00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:54,309
She created playlists and grouped all of the podcast episodes by topics.

430
00:14:54,799 --> 00:14:59,520
So instead of having to go back and sort through all of the archives,

431
00:14:59,599 --> 00:15:01,390
320 some odd of them,

432
00:15:01,919 --> 00:15:05,880
now you're able to see playlists of groups topics.

433
00:15:06,450 --> 00:15:07,760
If you are new to the podcast,

434
00:15:07,809 --> 00:15:10,289
you still need to listen to all of the episodes.

435
00:15:10,609 --> 00:15:14,520
So I highly recommend starting at the beginning and listening through all of them.

436
00:15:14,729 --> 00:15:15,729
You can binge listen,

437
00:15:15,809 --> 00:15:16,580
you can speed me up,

438
00:15:16,650 --> 00:15:17,239
whatever,

439
00:15:17,770 --> 00:15:20,760
but they are now grouped and it will be far easier to find,

440
00:15:20,849 --> 00:15:22,989
so you no longer have to have the pressure

441
00:15:22,989 --> 00:15:26,080
of only the most recent 300 episodes displaying.

442
00:15:26,690 --> 00:15:28,080
And so a huge thank you to Maya.

443
00:15:28,369 --> 00:15:28,809
All right y'all,

444
00:15:28,929 --> 00:15:29,409
I love you.

445
00:15:29,450 --> 00:15:30,289
We'll talk again soon.

446
00:15:30,489 --> 00:15:30,690
Bye.

447
00:15:31,909 --> 00:15:34,669
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

448
00:15:34,830 --> 00:15:35,739
Brenna Hicks.

449
00:15:35,909 --> 00:15:37,869
For more episodes and resources,

450
00:15:37,989 --> 00:15:42,750
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.