Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep39 - Yeast-Based Probiotic Supplements for Brood Bitches: When They Make Sense and When They Don't

1
00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,240
I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,

2
00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,640
and this is a Puppy Culture
potluck podcast.

3
00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:16,920
You bring the topics,

4
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,920
we bring the conversation.

5
00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:22,080
This episode

6
00:00:22,080 --> 00:00:25,920
we're going to talk about
the therapeutic use

7
00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:30,480
of probiotic supplementation
for pregnant bitches.

8
00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,080
One of my fans wrote in to me
recently about a webinar

9
00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:39,120
she attended on the veterinary
use of probiotics.

10
00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:41,760
And this is what she said.

11
00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:47,000
The thing that intrigued me was a study
where one group of pregnant bitches

12
00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:50,880
was on a yeast based probiotic,
and the control

13
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,880
group on no probiotic.

14
00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,680
There were benefits to both bitches
and puppies, such as more stable GI

15
00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,440
tract and stool quality during whelping
in the mothers on the probiotic,

16
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,360
and they were less likely
to have puppies of low birth weight.

17
00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,000
I know Jane works a lot
at supplementing the gut biome,

18
00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:17,360
but interesting info about a specific
yeast and a specific time.

19
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:19,600
Anyway, I thought it was an interesting

20
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,920
bit of info to put in our breeding
and well-being toolkit.

21
00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:28,520
They talked about the times to use
probiotics, like to prevent GI stress

22
00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:34,080
and upset for dogs that are bothered
by travel, company or antibiotic use,

23
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:39,720
as well as dogs with chronic
GI issues, but also in reproduction.

24
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,200
Okay, this is me again.

25
00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:48,640
Probiotic supplementation
is really having a moment right

26
00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:51,840
now, and I do think it's particularly hot

27
00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:55,360
in the veterinary community, like as an

28
00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,360
as a new kind of tool.

29
00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,640
But context is everything.

30
00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,920
And we need to talk about context

31
00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:08,440
when it comes to whether it's a good idea

32
00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,440
to supplement your brood bitches

33
00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,840
with probiotic supplements of any kind,
and specifically

34
00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:19,320
with yeast based probiotics.

35
00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:22,200
So let's talk

36
00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:26,440
just briefly about yeast versus bacteria
based probiotics.

37
00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,080
This is not a course level

38
00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:30,440
detail discussion.

39
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,440
It's just a primer to position it for you.

40
00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,560
Probiotics come from food sources.

41
00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:41,080
Things like yogurt, fermented vegetables,
kefir, kombucha.

42
00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:44,760
Yogurt and fermented vegetables

43
00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,760
use a bacteria based fermentation

44
00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,840
process versus kefir

45
00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,200
and kombucha, which use a Scoby,

46
00:02:55,200 --> 00:03:00,880
which is a symbiotic colony of yeast
and bacteria.

47
00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,440
S c o b y.

48
00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:09,520
So kefir
and kombucha are much more complex

49
00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:14,840
blends of many different probiotic
bacteria and yeasts.

50
00:03:15,920 --> 00:03:18,920
But that's not to say that they're better

51
00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,320
or not as good as a yogurt,

52
00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,880
or a kimchi, or a miso or a sauerkraut.

53
00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,680
They're just different. Okay.

54
00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,200
All of these fermented foods
have their contribution to make.

55
00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,560
Dairy and plant ferments

56
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,320
use different probiotics
to do their fermentation,

57
00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:44,120
and even different kinds of yogurt
will have different probiotics in them.

58
00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:49,280
So again, it's not
that one is better than the other, it's

59
00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:55,040
just that yeast based probiotics
have, number one, a better chance

60
00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,560
of surviving the high stomach
acid in a dog's gut.

61
00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:01,600
A dog's gut is a carnivore gut.

62
00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:02,800
It's super short.

63
00:04:02,800 --> 00:04:06,480
It's super high acid compared to our long

64
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,600
lower acid omnivore intestines.

65
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,960
So those yeasts, they just stand
a better chance of surviving that

66
00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,680
trip down that super acidic gut,
than a bacteria does.

67
00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,360
And second of all,

68
00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:27,360
the yeasts stand a better chance
of surviving a round of antibiotics

69
00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:32,480
because the antibiotic, remember, is going
to be an equal opportunity destroyer.

70
00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:37,120
It's going to destroy all the bacteria
it comes in contact with.

71
00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:39,800
The good guys and the bad guys.

72
00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:45,000
So it's going to strip that gut,
leave it vulnerable to dysbiosis,

73
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,320
leave it vulnerable to a pathogen
coming in and taking root.

74
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,120
And a yeast based probiotic
in that instance can be helpful

75
00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:57,280
because the yeast will survive
the antibiotic

76
00:04:57,280 --> 00:05:00,400
better and sort of crowd out the bad guys.

77
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,480
And with any luck, placehold

78
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,000
until the good bacteria can reestablish.

79
00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:09,720
After the antibiotics are gone.

80
00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:12,720
All that having

81
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,640
been said, we always have to remember

82
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:20,400
that the name of the game is balance
and diversity.

83
00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,280
When it comes to the gut biome.

84
00:05:23,280 --> 00:05:26,720
Food sources are always going to win
for this.

85
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,640
End of story.

86
00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,240
The co-factors and diversity in food
sources

87
00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:35,840
is always going to be way beyond
anything you can get

88
00:05:35,840 --> 00:05:38,840
in a pill.

89
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,520
The yeast based probiotic
that's on everyone's

90
00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,040
radar right now is Saccharomyces
boulardii.

91
00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,160
There are natural food
sources of S boulardii,

92
00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,080
namely kombucha and kefir.

93
00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,080
So your yeast Scoby based

94
00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,760
probiotics are going to have S boulardii.

95
00:06:00,840 --> 00:06:04,800
Now if you want to go down a rabbit hole,
you may read

96
00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,800
that food sources do not have a quote
significant unquote amount of S boulardii.

97
00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:13,760
But this is always in the context
of talking

98
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,960
about curing actual diseases
with probiotics.

99
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:23,480
So studies of IBD and antibiotic diarrhea
and things like that.

100
00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,440
So we as dog breeders
have to make a distinction between

101
00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:34,160
therapeutic versus healthy diet doses,
because it's really significant

102
00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:37,760
when we're making decisions about when

103
00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,240
and how to supplement with probiotics.

104
00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,400
Because when we

105
00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:48,800
start introducing nuclear amounts

106
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,120
of a narrow band of probiotic

107
00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:55,120
of any kind to be a yeast or bacteria,

108
00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:01,680
we are taking up a lot of real estate
in the gut and potentially crowding out

109
00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:06,080
bad guys as in that antibiotic scenario
that I just gave.

110
00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,320
But we're also possibly
unbalancing the gut.

111
00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,040
So it's not something

112
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,080
to just be taken lightly and thrown.

113
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,720
It's not a completely benign intervention.

114
00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:26,400
It could have unbalancing effects

115
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,400
that could lead to dysbiosis, ultimately.

116
00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,480
But you know,
it is a tool that can be useful

117
00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,680
once dysbiosis occurs
and you have symptoms

118
00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,200
or you have good reason to suspect

119
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,880
that there's some sort of deficiency
or problem brewing.

120
00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,360
It's sort of an emergency situation.

121
00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,840
And therapeutic doses may be indicated.

122
00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:54,200
Okay.

123
00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,360
Circling back to that veterinary webinar

124
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,280
context again, is everything.

125
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,720
That webinar was sponsored
by a pet food company

126
00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,720
that makes highly processed pet food.

127
00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,000
The vet
that was presenting the seminar both works

128
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:18,680
for the pet food company
and is an emissary for that company.

129
00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,240
And the animals in that study were animals
that were fed

130
00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:29,040
a highly processed diet
with very little variety

131
00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,280
and no additional fermented foods.

132
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:39,800
So this is absolutely useful information
in that context.

133
00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,600
And if you are a veterinarian

134
00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,400
and you have clients presenting to you
with bitches that have been weaned on

135
00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:51,520
to this kind of diet and have been eating
this kind of diet their whole lives,

136
00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:55,480
yes, these therapeutic doses
of S boulardii

137
00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,520
may be beneficial at certain times
during the pregnancy,

138
00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,840
but for those of us

139
00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:06,560
that have weaned for many generations

140
00:09:06,560 --> 00:09:12,120
onto whole food diets
with a variety of fermented add ons,

141
00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:17,400
this supplementation
would not be advisable, in my opinion,

142
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:19,360
unless the

143
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,480
dam had to be on antibiotics
for some reason

144
00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,960
or some other symptom of dysbiosis
pops up.

145
00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:29,360
I would not advise supplementing

146
00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:33,720
with a pill form of probiotic
in that context.

147
00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:38,680
Now, regarding pregnancy,
I will say that pregnancy in general

148
00:09:38,680 --> 00:09:42,880
is taxing on the body
and also it's an immune suppressed state.

149
00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,040
So if there are any underlying
small things brewing

150
00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:51,640
that might have been kept in check
normally, pregnancy can bring those out.

151
00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:56,560
So even if your bitch has been
on a whole food diet with fermented foods

152
00:09:56,560 --> 00:10:00,760
her entire life,
but she's pregnant and now experiencing

153
00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,680
a symptom of dysbiosis,
such as diarrhea during pregnancy,

154
00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,800
then yes, I might be reaching
for therapeutic doses of yeast

155
00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:14,080
and bacterial probiotics in that instance,
but I would only do that

156
00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:18,400
after I had exhausted
my remedies with food sources.

157
00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:21,840
And if you have a dam who has

158
00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,640
not been weaned and raised on whole foods
with fermented foods,

159
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:29,440
this could be a good trick for you
to have up your sleeve during pregnancy.

160
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,440
But again,
if your dam's been on Whole Foods

161
00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,200
her entire life and was weaned on
to a diet that included things

162
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,640
such as yogurt,
kefir, sauerkraut, and kombucha,

163
00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,160
I wouldn't prophylactically
go in and introduce

164
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,160
a new clear amount of probiotics

165
00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,760
because you worked hard
the entire life of that animal

166
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,680
to colonize
and then build up a stable gut community.

167
00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,400
And there's no implicit benefit
to disrupting that community

168
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,320
unless it's
indicated by a specific symptom.

169
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,720
At least that's my opinion,
and that's what I do,

170
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,560
just based on my experience
and the science as I read it.

171
00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:15,360
I think

172
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,720
the easiest way to look at
this is overall,

173
00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,640
is there a symptom or a reason

174
00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,640
to believe that there's a problem?

175
00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:28,720
A symptom
would be something like diarrhea.

176
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:34,120
A reason to believe that there's
some kind of problem would be a bitch

177
00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,760
that has been fed a processed diet
her whole life,

178
00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:42,000
or even one that perhaps was not weaned on

179
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,840
to a whole food diet that was fed
a processed diet early in her life.

180
00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,600
Because that's when the gut biome
is colonized as early in life.

181
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,720
We go over this in the upcoming
weaning course, but

182
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,560
I'm just going to drop it here
that those first few foods that you feed

183
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,480
are really going to be formative
as far as how that gut is, is colonized.

184
00:12:03,880 --> 00:12:06,120
So if you have one of those situations

185
00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:11,080
I'm going to say probiotic supplementation
comes up higher on my list.

186
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,640
And if I'm a veterinarian

187
00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,560
and I'm seeing a bitch
presenting with a problem,

188
00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:22,080
probiotic supplementation
is going to be higher up on my list.

189
00:12:22,680 --> 00:12:26,520
But the message I really want to get out
here is twofold.

190
00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,520
Number one, that there is a difference
between yeast and bacteria

191
00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,960
based probiotics and the yeast probiotics

192
00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:38,280
can definitely have a specific benefit

193
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,640
in certain cases
where bacterial probiotics might fail,

194
00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,920
but also that

195
00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:49,640
supplementing in a pill form

196
00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:52,440
rather than getting from a food source,

197
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:56,760
is not something to be done
indiscriminately or taken lightly.

198
00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,680
It is medicine,
just like antibiotics are medicine

199
00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:07,280
and subject to the same overuse
and abuse as other kinds of medicine.

200
00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,920
If you liked this podcast,

201
00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,880
you'll love our breeder
courses and bundles at puppyculture.com.

202
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:20,200
Breeders, do you want to get your puppy
owners started off on the right foot?

203
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,280
Check out our bulk
discounts for puppy owner courses

204
00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,480
at puppyculture.com.

205
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,480
Well, that's it for this time.

206
00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:31,720
Thanks for listening. Bye bye.