Episode 179: Rewilding Livestock Instincts for Soil Health with Bob Kinford

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Good time.

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Hi, friends, this is John.

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Welcome back to the Regenerative

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Agriculture Podcast, where we

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have all kinds of fun

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conversations about all kinds of

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fun topics related to

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regeneration,

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regeneration of soil,

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of plants, of livestock, of our

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health and of our relationships.

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Today, I'm looking forward to

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perhaps a bit of an unusual or

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interesting conversation, an

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uncommon conversation for many

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of us.

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There

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are

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Years ago, I read this

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fascinating little book by

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Rupert Sheldrake titled,

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Dogs Who Know When Their Owners

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Are Coming Home.

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And

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mainstream science for many

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years referred to animals as

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being dumb animals.

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Oh, they have a smaller brain

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capacity than us.

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They don't have decision -making

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capability like us.

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And yeah, they were just

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referred to as dumb animals.

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Well,

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you don't have to spend very

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much time with livestock or dogs

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really any animals in a

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production agriculture setting,

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to figure out that that is not

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true.

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That they are actually very

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capable of decision making,

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they're very intuitive, they're

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very aware. Probably,

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as in the case of dogs who know

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when their owners are coming

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home from quite some distance,

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they're aware in ways that we

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are not.

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And so I've really been looking

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forward to having this

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conversation with Bob Kinford,

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who's a name that may be

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familiar to many of you.

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Bob, thank you for joining me

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here today. Rather than offering

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an introduction

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and a background of your work.

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I'd love for you to describe

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that and tell us a little bit

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about your journey and the

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things that you've been working

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on.

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Well,

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I started out my dad was an

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electrician and we lived out

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of town.

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All the neighbors around us are

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ranchers and farmers and

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home life wasn't that good.

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And I wound up spending all my

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time on the on the farms and

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ranches around the house.

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I mean, from the time five years

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old, I'd

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run off and go help somebody do

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something or,

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or probably pretending like I'm

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helping somebody and they

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tolerated me.

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But by the time I was eight

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years old, I knew I wanted to

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be,

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you know, I was just going to be

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involved with livestock.

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That was just

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a done deal.

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And everything that I ever

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thought about doing was either,

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you

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know, because it was involved

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with livestock or I

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might make enough money to buy a

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ranch.

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And.

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About eight years old, I started

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asking people, because everybody

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had sheep

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or goats, or sheep and goats,

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and cows.

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And so I started asking people,

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well, how come your sheep

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are over there, they're all

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grazing together, your goats are

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all grazing together, and your

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cows scatter out?

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And the

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answer was always the same.

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Well, that's just what cows do.

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That's just what cows do.

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And it was something that just

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didn't set right on me.

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And as such, I just,

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at that young of an age, I was

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starting to try to figure out

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different ways of handling

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livestock and observing them.

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By the time I was 11 or 12,

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there were people that I would

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not help just because of the way

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that they handled their

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livestock.

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And

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oh, along about

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79 or 80, I started reading

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about this guy called Roger

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Savory.

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And well, I need to back up

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because I did have one guy that

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I like to help.

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I didn't get to go help too much

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because he never needed any

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help.

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But he told me, he said,

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said, you know, Bobby, he says,

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if you take care of your stock,

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they'll take

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Are we back?

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Oh, there you are.

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Yeah, I told you.

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I don't plan any of this.

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I did not write my own story.

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Yeah.

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It's like last night.

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Not the dog. No, no one is

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coming home. I don't even know

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if I'm home or not.

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Last I heard on my end, you were

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sharing the story of a neighbor

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that you helped occasionally,

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even though he didn't really

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need your help.

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And he would tell you that if

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you take care of the livestock,

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the livestock will take care of

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you.

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And and then

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along about 79 or 80, I read an

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article on Alan Savory.

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And his whole view on

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the

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grazing and recovery, all of

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that made sense.

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It just instantly made sense.

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The only thing that didn't make

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any sense was why do you need to

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have fences to do this?

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You should be able to do it

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without

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having to build fences and not

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having to be there all the time.

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And most of the places I've

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worked on have always been

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absentee owners.

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I mean, I had times where,

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you know, back in the 80s, I

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could go to work for one guy for

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for $750 a month and be in a

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bunk house, or I go to work over

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here and have 500 cows to take

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care of by myself for

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$300 a month, I take the $300 a

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month job.

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It's 70, almost 72.

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I'm still the same way.

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It's

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the animals are the more

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important part of the equation

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than the money,

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which I need to start figuring

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out a way to change that a

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little bit so I can fix my gas

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lines.

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But

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in the process of being able to

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work by myself

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and always riding colts or just

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somebody sending me some

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real crappy, crappy horses that

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would

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break into just at whatever time

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I

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had to start, you know, I was

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experimenting because I had to,

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and I was,

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I'd start noticing things and

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put them back together.

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And

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eventually I

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got to where I

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could have

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30 section pasture

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and you know, I might have have

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800 animals on it and broken up

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between six or eight water

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points. And I would have six or

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eight herds going out there.

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Of course,

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you don't want to really tell

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anybody you're doing this

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because you know, they think

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you're crazy.

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So it

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got up to

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1992,

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I believe it was.

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I went to work for Leachman

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Cattle Company out of Billings,

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and I

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was forced into going to a Bud

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Williams

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seminar.

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Now,

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it's my relationship with Bud is

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kind of weird because I was

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forced to go to that school.

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And my first reaction when I saw

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Bud Williams,

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an advertisement for Bud

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Williams School was,

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Who the heck does this guy think

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he is? He's going to teach

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ranchers and cowboys that are

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always handling cattle how to

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handle cattle.

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But I also

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never made the connection as to

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why when I was working by

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myself, I could handle more

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cattle with less effort than

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when I had a bunch of people.

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And I sat through that class,

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and it's like,

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everybody kept asking these

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questions. And I'm thinking,

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man, this is pretty obvious.

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So the last day of the school, I

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went ahead, and instead of going

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to lunch, I sat down and talked

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with Bud.

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And I started telling him some

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of the things I'm doing, like

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what I call a fade

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turn, where

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If a cow turns to go running

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off, I'll turn with it.

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But instead of stopping parallel

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or chasing on the parallel, I'll

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take a

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step or two off to the side a

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little bit wide.

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And it just shuts them down.

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You don't have to do anything

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else. It just shuts them down.

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They turn around and go back.

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So I'm talking to Bud about

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this.

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And he he

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told me, he says, well, you're

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on the right track.

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He says, I could tell by the

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questions you asked that you

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were ahead of what I'm teaching

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in the class. And I said, well,

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do you have any

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in any courses to where I can go

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and take and kind of

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fine -tune this?" And he says,

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no, I don't. He says,

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in a classroom, he says, it's

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impossible to teach in these

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classes because it's too

293
00:09:01,759 --> 00:09:02,559
advanced,

294
00:09:03,220 --> 00:09:05,620
which struck me as kind of odd

295
00:09:05,620 --> 00:09:06,819
at that time.

296
00:09:07,319 --> 00:09:09,000
And I thought on that for

297
00:09:09,629 --> 00:09:10,769
20 years

298
00:09:11,279 --> 00:09:13,340
before I figured out that

299
00:09:13,809 --> 00:09:14,649
it wasn't

300
00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:17,299
that it's advanced because no

301
00:09:17,299 --> 00:09:18,720
stockmanship is advanced.

302
00:09:19,629 --> 00:09:21,029
Every bit of it is,

303
00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,519
is just an interaction.

304
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:24,799
And it's,

305
00:09:25,549 --> 00:09:26,349
it's,

306
00:09:26,549 --> 00:09:27,870
You know, you might be more

307
00:09:27,870 --> 00:09:29,210
advanced at reading something

308
00:09:29,210 --> 00:09:32,110
but it's all taken advantage of

309
00:09:32,110 --> 00:09:32,909
or

310
00:09:34,319 --> 00:09:36,819
working against Their their

311
00:09:37,389 --> 00:09:38,309
natural instincts,

312
00:09:38,740 --> 00:09:39,919
you know, you see all these

313
00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:40,719
videos on

314
00:09:41,019 --> 00:09:42,659
on Facebook these guys he got

315
00:09:42,659 --> 00:09:44,840
these wild cows and they come

316
00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:45,899
out and they got

317
00:09:46,789 --> 00:09:49,250
five cowboys and 20 cows and boy

318
00:09:49,250 --> 00:09:50,610
as soon as they the cows are

319
00:09:50,610 --> 00:09:52,320
already running and they just

320
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:53,779
Break off into a dead run and

321
00:09:53,779 --> 00:09:54,579
it's like

322
00:09:55,230 --> 00:09:56,509
you're training them to be that

323
00:09:56,509 --> 00:09:57,309
way,

324
00:09:58,169 --> 00:09:59,269
you know Because that's if

325
00:09:59,269 --> 00:10:00,850
something's chasing you you're

326
00:10:00,850 --> 00:10:02,970
gonna run and if every time you

327
00:10:02,970 --> 00:10:04,549
see something and it chases you

328
00:10:04,799 --> 00:10:06,480
you're gonna run you're gonna

329
00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:07,299
get away from it

330
00:10:08,279 --> 00:10:09,079
and

331
00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:11,460
you can go out and

332
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:14,220
And instead of chasing them,

333
00:10:15,700 --> 00:10:18,029
when they go to run back off and

334
00:10:18,029 --> 00:10:18,829
then just

335
00:10:19,769 --> 00:10:21,710
kind of mess around a little bit

336
00:10:21,710 --> 00:10:23,110
and figure out where you think

337
00:10:23,110 --> 00:10:24,889
they're going to go, pop up over

338
00:10:24,889 --> 00:10:26,090
there and they run again.

339
00:10:26,789 --> 00:10:27,950
And it's really funny because

340
00:10:27,950 --> 00:10:28,789
I've done this on

341
00:10:29,549 --> 00:10:30,909
on animals where

342
00:10:31,409 --> 00:10:33,169
a crew of four guys tried for

343
00:10:33,169 --> 00:10:34,610
five days to get a bunch of

344
00:10:34,610 --> 00:10:36,070
slick yearlings in

345
00:10:36,769 --> 00:10:37,769
and they

346
00:10:38,110 --> 00:10:39,490
didn't do it all week.

347
00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:41,259
And I went out in the same

348
00:10:41,259 --> 00:10:42,600
pasture and I went out and I

349
00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:43,399
started messing around.

350
00:10:43,419 --> 00:10:44,219
They ran.

351
00:10:44,389 --> 00:10:45,990
The only loafing I did was

352
00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:47,210
around the back of a hill.

353
00:10:47,950 --> 00:10:49,629
And I came out the other side

354
00:10:49,629 --> 00:10:51,110
ahead of them, and they turned

355
00:10:51,110 --> 00:10:51,909
around and went back.

356
00:10:51,809 --> 00:10:52,609
And I loped back.

357
00:10:52,649 --> 00:10:53,930
And after three times of that,

358
00:10:54,659 --> 00:10:55,459
when

359
00:10:56,620 --> 00:10:57,919
I met them at the one end, they

360
00:10:58,100 --> 00:10:59,180
changed direction.

361
00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:02,100
Well, instead of chasing them, I

362
00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:04,240
rode off to the right.

363
00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:06,850
And there's something about this

364
00:11:06,850 --> 00:11:07,649
when,

365
00:11:08,039 --> 00:11:09,080
if you're going off

366
00:11:10,059 --> 00:11:11,600
to the right or to the left,

367
00:11:12,299 --> 00:11:13,500
and you catch their eye, well,

368
00:11:13,659 --> 00:11:14,919
that animal,

369
00:11:16,330 --> 00:11:17,730
their basic instinct is to go

370
00:11:17,730 --> 00:11:18,870
around you. Well, when you're

371
00:11:19,659 --> 00:11:21,980
going out at kind of an angle to

372
00:11:21,980 --> 00:11:22,779
get out there,

373
00:11:22,940 --> 00:11:24,139
and that was

374
00:11:24,629 --> 00:11:25,950
the straight angles when I was

375
00:11:25,950 --> 00:11:27,129
just figuring this out,

376
00:11:28,289 --> 00:11:29,610
they'll tend to go the other

377
00:11:29,610 --> 00:11:30,409
way.

378
00:11:31,789 --> 00:11:32,589
And

379
00:11:33,319 --> 00:11:34,240
I did that.

380
00:11:35,049 --> 00:11:36,230
four or five times.

381
00:11:36,370 --> 00:11:37,169
And

382
00:11:38,230 --> 00:11:39,909
by one o 'clock I had them

383
00:11:39,909 --> 00:11:40,709
pinned.

384
00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:43,259
Now, these other guys, they

385
00:11:43,259 --> 00:11:44,620
didn't appreciate the fact I got

386
00:11:44,620 --> 00:11:45,860
them pinned. It made them mad.

387
00:11:47,289 --> 00:11:49,570
But the guy that was running

388
00:11:49,570 --> 00:11:50,990
that place, him and I went ahead

389
00:11:50,990 --> 00:11:51,789
and

390
00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:54,519
we branded them and I messed

391
00:11:54,519 --> 00:11:55,539
around with them in the pins,

392
00:11:55,620 --> 00:11:56,580
put them in a little trap.

393
00:11:56,639 --> 00:11:57,720
And the next day I drove them

394
00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,639
three miles and they actually

395
00:11:59,639 --> 00:12:01,919
drove better than the

396
00:12:03,159 --> 00:12:04,740
cows on that ranch or either one

397
00:12:04,740 --> 00:12:06,200
of their sister units.

398
00:12:08,549 --> 00:12:10,750
So and it makes people mad when

399
00:12:10,750 --> 00:12:11,889
you do that, you know, it's like

400
00:12:11,889 --> 00:12:12,990
because you're arrogant and it's

401
00:12:12,990 --> 00:12:14,629
no, it's it's

402
00:12:15,330 --> 00:12:16,610
I've accidentally figured things

403
00:12:16,610 --> 00:12:17,950
out because I'm weird.

404
00:12:19,940 --> 00:12:20,740
So at some point in the

405
00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:22,100
conversation, possibly it might

406
00:12:22,100 --> 00:12:23,019
have been before the recording

407
00:12:23,019 --> 00:12:24,059
was turned on. You said

408
00:12:24,059 --> 00:12:25,399
something to the effect of

409
00:12:25,649 --> 00:12:27,649
animal psychology and grazing

410
00:12:27,649 --> 00:12:28,690
management and pasture

411
00:12:28,690 --> 00:12:30,090
management is all it's all the

412
00:12:30,090 --> 00:12:31,250
same thing. It's all connected.

413
00:12:31,330 --> 00:12:32,429
We can't have a conversation

414
00:12:32,429 --> 00:12:33,229
about one

415
00:12:33,509 --> 00:12:34,389
without.

416
00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:36,230
Exactly.

417
00:12:36,799 --> 00:12:38,639
Exactly. And it's kind of funny

418
00:12:38,639 --> 00:12:39,439
because

419
00:12:39,980 --> 00:12:41,940
everybody's you know, I always

420
00:12:41,940 --> 00:12:42,740
called

421
00:12:42,860 --> 00:12:44,720
The polywire is recreational

422
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:45,519
fencing.

423
00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:46,899
And these collars,

424
00:12:47,299 --> 00:12:49,139
my new name for the collars is

425
00:12:49,139 --> 00:12:49,980
beach bum fencing,

426
00:12:51,080 --> 00:12:52,200
because they can sit down on the

427
00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:53,000
beach and they can

428
00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:54,980
adjust, you know, adjust their

429
00:12:54,980 --> 00:12:55,779
fences.

430
00:12:55,759 --> 00:12:57,580
And that can be useful.

431
00:12:57,879 --> 00:12:59,120
A couple of weeks ago, I was out

432
00:12:59,120 --> 00:12:59,919
in California

433
00:13:00,379 --> 00:13:01,179
and,

434
00:13:01,629 --> 00:13:02,830
you know, the people are just

435
00:13:02,830 --> 00:13:03,629
starting out.

436
00:13:04,269 --> 00:13:05,789
They're wanting to have a horse

437
00:13:05,789 --> 00:13:07,769
refuge, but they're working with

438
00:13:07,769 --> 00:13:10,210
Roger Savory to build up the

439
00:13:10,210 --> 00:13:11,629
grass. So they're using cows

440
00:13:12,870 --> 00:13:14,529
and they're not there.

441
00:13:14,950 --> 00:13:16,430
And the first set of cows, they

442
00:13:16,430 --> 00:13:17,490
got her a little bit waspy.

443
00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:19,659
You know, they see you coming

444
00:13:19,659 --> 00:13:21,909
and they'd be running off.

445
00:13:22,399 --> 00:13:24,100
So I spent one day out there, no

446
00:13:24,100 --> 00:13:25,200
horses on the place yet.

447
00:13:25,319 --> 00:13:26,879
I'm out there walking the hills

448
00:13:26,879 --> 00:13:28,600
and I got them down to where I

449
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:29,659
could stop them on foot.

450
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:31,919
you know, but

451
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:33,720
there's some sort of a

452
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:34,679
relationship and I'm still

453
00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:36,159
trying to kind of figure it out.

454
00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:38,759
Uh,

455
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:41,299
good friends and clients in, in,

456
00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:42,319
uh,

457
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,279
in Kansas, Josh and Gwen Hoy,

458
00:13:44,700 --> 00:13:45,500
they

459
00:13:45,889 --> 00:13:47,750
figured out that what I'm doing

460
00:13:47,750 --> 00:13:49,909
is creating murmurations in

461
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:51,279
the cattle.

462
00:13:52,539 --> 00:13:53,980
And I had, I'd never, I'd never

463
00:13:53,980 --> 00:13:54,840
thought about that, but

464
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,559
murmurations is like, you know,

465
00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:57,840
the, the flock of birds,

466
00:13:58,279 --> 00:13:59,980
lots of black birds or

467
00:13:59,980 --> 00:14:01,820
fish.

468
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:04,340
And they were watching a

469
00:14:04,710 --> 00:14:05,870
special

470
00:14:06,250 --> 00:14:07,690
on murmurations.

471
00:14:07,970 --> 00:14:10,080
And at one point, it got down to

472
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:11,000
where they were looking at a

473
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,440
million wildebeest from

474
00:14:12,909 --> 00:14:13,709
a satellite.

475
00:14:15,070 --> 00:14:16,250
And it was actual video.

476
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:17,210
And they showed where

477
00:14:17,519 --> 00:14:19,740
the one in the front just turned

478
00:14:19,740 --> 00:14:21,179
a little bit, and it just went

479
00:14:21,179 --> 00:14:21,979
right down the line.

480
00:14:21,919 --> 00:14:22,820
Everything starts turning.

481
00:14:24,309 --> 00:14:25,350
And Gwen said,

482
00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:26,690
she says, you know, when I'm

483
00:14:26,690 --> 00:14:28,029
writing, because when I teach, I

484
00:14:28,029 --> 00:14:30,629
cannot teach this like Bud did.

485
00:14:30,750 --> 00:14:31,549
You cannot

486
00:14:31,620 --> 00:14:33,360
teach this in a classroom

487
00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:34,779
because it's

488
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,159
It's too abstract to what we've

489
00:14:38,159 --> 00:14:39,180
learned all of our life.

490
00:14:40,319 --> 00:14:41,240
So I'll go out and I'll

491
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:42,659
demonstrate and then I'll have,

492
00:14:42,879 --> 00:14:43,879
I'll have you follow me

493
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,299
and be on the off side to where

494
00:14:46,299 --> 00:14:47,559
you're not interfering with the

495
00:14:47,559 --> 00:14:49,419
cow and follow me, see what I'm

496
00:14:49,419 --> 00:14:51,100
doing. And then I'll let you do

497
00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:51,899
it. And then,

498
00:14:52,350 --> 00:14:53,389
you know, and we just keep

499
00:14:53,389 --> 00:14:54,789
taking turns like that for five

500
00:14:54,789 --> 00:14:55,589
days.

501
00:14:55,490 --> 00:14:56,289
And

502
00:14:56,399 --> 00:14:57,879
there are some people that,

503
00:15:00,039 --> 00:15:01,240
don't have a talent for reading

504
00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,500
animals, don't have a talent on

505
00:15:02,500 --> 00:15:03,299
the horse,

506
00:15:03,340 --> 00:15:05,419
but they're, they're trying and

507
00:15:05,419 --> 00:15:06,299
they don't quite get it.

508
00:15:06,319 --> 00:15:07,460
But then you get somebody else

509
00:15:07,460 --> 00:15:08,680
that's got a talent a little bit

510
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,059
with both. And boy, by the

511
00:15:10,059 --> 00:15:11,120
second or third day, they're,

512
00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:12,180
they're playing around with it

513
00:15:12,180 --> 00:15:13,059
and they're figuring it out.

514
00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:15,210
But she says, you

515
00:15:16,220 --> 00:15:17,700
know, cause one of the ways that

516
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:18,720
I'll also turn

517
00:15:19,039 --> 00:15:20,159
cattle is I'll

518
00:15:20,919 --> 00:15:22,659
go down the side of the herd and

519
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:25,009
instead of trying to get out of

520
00:15:25,149 --> 00:15:26,190
front of them and turn them,

521
00:15:26,919 --> 00:15:28,700
I'll get about 50 head back and

522
00:15:28,700 --> 00:15:29,500
I'll just,

523
00:15:29,559 --> 00:15:30,740
I'll put a bend in my horses

524
00:15:30,740 --> 00:15:31,840
back to where instead of

525
00:15:31,840 --> 00:15:32,820
traveling straight forward,

526
00:15:33,059 --> 00:15:34,399
they're bent and traveling to

527
00:15:34,399 --> 00:15:35,199
the side.

528
00:15:35,559 --> 00:15:37,600
And I just start finding my zone

529
00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:39,759
where that, that zone is that's

530
00:15:39,759 --> 00:15:40,659
going to start affecting them.

531
00:15:41,230 --> 00:15:42,799
And then all of a sudden,

532
00:15:44,009 --> 00:15:45,210
four or five cows up in front of

533
00:15:45,210 --> 00:15:46,309
me, we'll just start bump,

534
00:15:46,669 --> 00:15:47,469
bump, bump.

535
00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:48,929
And, and they'll,

536
00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:51,909
the end might be 50 cows up

537
00:15:51,909 --> 00:15:52,709
ahead of me.

538
00:15:52,919 --> 00:15:54,539
And they'll be turning way

539
00:15:54,539 --> 00:15:55,840
before I ever get there.

540
00:15:56,779 --> 00:15:59,240
And and she says what she says

541
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:00,039
after

542
00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:01,820
seeing that, that she realized

543
00:16:01,820 --> 00:16:03,879
I'll be riding along and I'll

544
00:16:03,879 --> 00:16:06,409
shift my back. And when I shift

545
00:16:06,409 --> 00:16:08,269
my back, my horse's back turns

546
00:16:08,269 --> 00:16:09,980
like that. And then the cows

547
00:16:09,980 --> 00:16:11,320
wind up doing the same thing.

548
00:16:12,820 --> 00:16:13,759
So the cows are essentially

549
00:16:13,759 --> 00:16:14,759
turning away from you.

550
00:16:15,269 --> 00:16:17,029
Well, they're I'm doing the

551
00:16:17,029 --> 00:16:19,169
murmuration. I'm I'm bending my

552
00:16:19,169 --> 00:16:21,450
horse like that to turn this

553
00:16:21,450 --> 00:16:22,250
way.

554
00:16:22,009 --> 00:16:23,370
And they just start

555
00:16:23,970 --> 00:16:25,149
doing it before I get there.

556
00:16:25,629 --> 00:16:27,169
So just for clarification for

557
00:16:27,169 --> 00:16:28,930
the people who are listening to

558
00:16:28,930 --> 00:16:29,730
audio only.

559
00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:31,919
So if you angle your back so

560
00:16:31,919 --> 00:16:33,299
that your face is facing.

561
00:16:33,740 --> 00:16:35,799
Well, when I'm

562
00:16:36,299 --> 00:16:37,759
on a horse and I want to

563
00:16:38,330 --> 00:16:39,190
say, I'm going to

564
00:16:39,659 --> 00:16:40,460
go left,

565
00:16:41,549 --> 00:16:44,319
I'll drop my, I'll drop my left

566
00:16:44,319 --> 00:16:45,119
hip.

567
00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:48,279
And of course the horse starts

568
00:16:48,279 --> 00:16:49,100
to go away from it.

569
00:16:49,139 --> 00:16:50,159
Well, when you're dropping your

570
00:16:50,159 --> 00:16:50,959
left hip,

571
00:16:51,059 --> 00:16:52,759
you get a bind, a little bend in

572
00:16:52,759 --> 00:16:53,559
your spine.

573
00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:55,120
Well, and when you stop and

574
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:55,919
think about it,

575
00:16:56,830 --> 00:16:57,629
that

576
00:16:57,730 --> 00:16:59,370
same thing happens to the horse.

577
00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,399
And then as you're coming up and

578
00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:03,199
we've.

579
00:17:03,899 --> 00:17:05,359
got this saying in the business,

580
00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:07,349
you got to get their eye, which

581
00:17:07,349 --> 00:17:08,930
every time I hear that, I want

582
00:17:08,930 --> 00:17:11,130
to slap somebody because as long

583
00:17:11,130 --> 00:17:12,349
as you're not in the blind spot,

584
00:17:12,549 --> 00:17:13,650
they can see you.

585
00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:15,819
If you're not doing what you

586
00:17:15,819 --> 00:17:17,079
want them to do,

587
00:17:18,569 --> 00:17:20,619
your body position is correct

588
00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:22,700
for what you want them to do.

589
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,160
So Gwen was saying, OK, she

590
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:26,960
says,

591
00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:27,779
get

592
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:29,470
that bend in your back, and then

593
00:17:29,470 --> 00:17:30,609
your horse gets that bend in the

594
00:17:30,609 --> 00:17:32,230
back. And of course, then I wind

595
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:33,029
up

596
00:17:33,009 --> 00:17:34,750
kind of moving the hip out a

597
00:17:34,750 --> 00:17:35,549
little bit

598
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:36,880
to where it gives the illusion

599
00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:38,240
that I'm turning that way.

600
00:17:38,319 --> 00:17:39,359
I'm still going in a straight

601
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:40,940
line, but it gives the illusion

602
00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:42,299
to the cow that I'm turning that

603
00:17:42,299 --> 00:17:43,940
way. And they start reacting to

604
00:17:43,940 --> 00:17:44,740
it and turn.

605
00:17:46,079 --> 00:17:47,279
Creating murmurations.

606
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:48,740
I love that. It's a beautiful

607
00:17:48,740 --> 00:17:49,539
image.

608
00:17:50,279 --> 00:17:51,859
And it is fun.

609
00:17:52,309 --> 00:17:53,829
It is fun.

610
00:17:54,250 --> 00:17:55,049
I've

611
00:17:55,029 --> 00:17:57,069
started doing where part

612
00:17:58,730 --> 00:18:00,750
of what we have to do is just

613
00:18:01,150 --> 00:18:02,670
try to get the cattle to all go

614
00:18:02,670 --> 00:18:05,140
into water at about the same

615
00:18:05,140 --> 00:18:05,940
time.

616
00:18:06,809 --> 00:18:07,829
Because if you're going to have

617
00:18:07,829 --> 00:18:08,629
a herd,

618
00:18:09,410 --> 00:18:10,490
they've got to be going into

619
00:18:10,490 --> 00:18:12,329
water at the same time, and they

620
00:18:12,329 --> 00:18:13,130
need to be

621
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:15,220
ruminating at the same time.

622
00:18:15,829 --> 00:18:17,849
So we get them in there, and

623
00:18:17,849 --> 00:18:19,250
then we're kind of sitting on

624
00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:20,049
them.

625
00:18:22,799 --> 00:18:23,599
And

626
00:18:23,710 --> 00:18:25,549
you'll have little bunches of

627
00:18:25,549 --> 00:18:26,349
cows sitting around.

628
00:18:26,450 --> 00:18:27,869
And they'll start getting up,

629
00:18:27,930 --> 00:18:29,829
and you'll have two groups of

630
00:18:29,829 --> 00:18:30,629
cows.

631
00:18:30,799 --> 00:18:33,099
about anywhere from 5, 10, 15

632
00:18:33,099 --> 00:18:33,899
head.

633
00:18:34,170 --> 00:18:36,710
And they're maybe 20 feet apart

634
00:18:36,710 --> 00:18:37,509
and

635
00:18:37,630 --> 00:18:38,609
they'll start grazing off in

636
00:18:38,609 --> 00:18:39,450
opposite directions.

637
00:18:40,430 --> 00:18:41,230
And

638
00:18:41,049 --> 00:18:42,950
you can ride through them.

639
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:44,950
I can just go to longcrop right

640
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:45,890
through them and angle my horse

641
00:18:45,890 --> 00:18:48,450
just right where they will turn

642
00:18:48,450 --> 00:18:50,269
in opposite directions and come

643
00:18:50,269 --> 00:18:52,220
together and head back towards

644
00:18:52,220 --> 00:18:53,019
the herd.

645
00:18:55,009 --> 00:18:57,009
So it's I mean, it's it's

646
00:18:57,420 --> 00:18:59,299
things that I realize and I have

647
00:18:59,299 --> 00:19:00,460
to realize that from

648
00:19:01,309 --> 00:19:03,490
perspective of somebody who's

649
00:19:03,740 --> 00:19:05,420
only done conventional livestock

650
00:19:05,420 --> 00:19:06,279
handling.

651
00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:07,779
or Bud Williams, where it's

652
00:19:07,779 --> 00:19:09,559
constantly pressure and release,

653
00:19:10,789 --> 00:19:13,009
that this is something that's

654
00:19:13,450 --> 00:19:14,349
just abstract.

655
00:19:15,019 --> 00:19:15,819
trying to

656
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:17,339
wrap your head around it.

657
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:19,259
You can't wrap your head around

658
00:19:19,259 --> 00:19:20,200
it until you see it.

659
00:19:20,299 --> 00:19:22,339
And you really can't

660
00:19:22,940 --> 00:19:24,200
get your head wrapped around

661
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:25,180
until you start doing it.

662
00:19:25,259 --> 00:19:26,119
And then when you start doing

663
00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:26,919
it,

664
00:19:26,819 --> 00:19:27,619
it just,

665
00:19:28,559 --> 00:19:29,779
after writing consciously for a

666
00:19:29,779 --> 00:19:30,579
while,

667
00:19:30,930 --> 00:19:32,730
then you can go ahead and just

668
00:19:32,730 --> 00:19:33,529
start

669
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:34,940
doing it in the subconscious,

670
00:19:35,299 --> 00:19:37,859
which is where our minds usually

671
00:19:37,859 --> 00:19:39,160
are when we're doing things.

672
00:19:39,940 --> 00:19:40,740
Yeah,

673
00:19:41,259 --> 00:19:43,099
yeah. So coming back to your

674
00:19:43,099 --> 00:19:44,059
comment about

675
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:46,200
stockmanship and

676
00:19:46,730 --> 00:19:47,930
pasture management, grazing

677
00:19:47,930 --> 00:19:48,730
management,

678
00:19:48,829 --> 00:19:51,029
and moving livestock all being

679
00:19:51,029 --> 00:19:51,829
the

680
00:19:52,039 --> 00:19:52,920
same thing, all being

681
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:53,720
intertwined.

682
00:19:54,170 --> 00:19:55,730
What does that look like for you

683
00:19:55,730 --> 00:19:57,049
today when you are managing

684
00:19:57,049 --> 00:19:57,849
herds of livestock

685
00:19:58,140 --> 00:20:01,150
with your

686
00:20:01,150 --> 00:20:01,970
approach?

687
00:20:02,539 --> 00:20:03,839
How are you thinking about these

688
00:20:03,839 --> 00:20:04,920
pieces and their interactions?

689
00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:07,769
Well, it's different.

690
00:20:08,309 --> 00:20:09,450
Everybody's looking for a silver

691
00:20:09,450 --> 00:20:10,250
bullet.

692
00:20:11,029 --> 00:20:11,829
And

693
00:20:12,930 --> 00:20:14,529
okay, you use fences and what

694
00:20:14,529 --> 00:20:15,529
are you doing? You're putting

695
00:20:15,529 --> 00:20:16,329
them down there.

696
00:20:16,490 --> 00:20:17,690
Okay, it's going to take

697
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,720
one day to eat this or it's

698
00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:21,519
going to take

699
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,869
four hours and then we're going

700
00:20:23,869 --> 00:20:24,950
to have to move them every four

701
00:20:24,950 --> 00:20:25,750
hours.

702
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:28,680
That isn't

703
00:20:29,059 --> 00:20:30,160
the way the

704
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:32,240
wild herds do it.

705
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:33,480
That isn't the way that animals

706
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:34,720
graze. They don't stay in one

707
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:37,730
little area for hours or a day.

708
00:20:40,009 --> 00:20:41,650
They're eating and moving as

709
00:20:41,650 --> 00:20:42,450
they go.

710
00:20:43,140 --> 00:20:44,819
And if they hit an area where

711
00:20:44,819 --> 00:20:46,519
maybe there's

712
00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:48,579
nothing in that area they really

713
00:20:48,579 --> 00:20:49,640
want to eat that day,

714
00:20:50,579 --> 00:20:51,920
they'll line out and they'll

715
00:20:52,460 --> 00:20:53,579
bump all of a sudden that

716
00:20:53,950 --> 00:20:55,369
the lead cow will stop

717
00:20:55,779 --> 00:20:56,579
and

718
00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:58,960
And it's interesting to watch

719
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:01,980
and I'm I'm really this is like

720
00:21:01,980 --> 00:21:04,140
the dog knowing when the owner's

721
00:21:04,140 --> 00:21:04,940
coming home

722
00:21:06,269 --> 00:21:07,390
because I've done this even in

723
00:21:07,390 --> 00:21:08,190
pivots

724
00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:09,839
where

725
00:21:10,519 --> 00:21:11,720
they'll be eating and there'll

726
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:12,920
be moving along a little bit.

727
00:21:13,529 --> 00:21:14,769
And then all of a sudden that

728
00:21:14,769 --> 00:21:16,329
lead cow will move up,

729
00:21:16,769 --> 00:21:17,730
just start walking out.

730
00:21:17,789 --> 00:21:18,829
Everything will line out, go

731
00:21:18,829 --> 00:21:19,629
with it.

732
00:21:19,579 --> 00:21:21,259
And then it stops, puts his head

733
00:21:21,259 --> 00:21:22,059
down and starts eating.

734
00:21:22,140 --> 00:21:23,299
Everything stops in back of it.

735
00:21:24,380 --> 00:21:25,539
And it is a

736
00:21:25,980 --> 00:21:28,390
perfect fit from where that cow

737
00:21:28,390 --> 00:21:29,349
stopped grazing.

738
00:21:30,769 --> 00:21:32,529
How do they know where they're

739
00:21:32,529 --> 00:21:33,329
all fits?

740
00:21:33,509 --> 00:21:34,750
You know? And I thought at first

741
00:21:34,750 --> 00:21:36,630
I thought, man, I'm just, this

742
00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:37,829
is crazy. I'm saying things I'm

743
00:21:37,829 --> 00:21:38,629
hallucinating.

744
00:21:38,970 --> 00:21:40,069
And when I talk about this, a

745
00:21:40,069 --> 00:21:41,789
lot of people say the same, you

746
00:21:41,789 --> 00:21:42,710
know, think the same thing.

747
00:21:42,910 --> 00:21:43,710
Well,

748
00:21:43,450 --> 00:21:44,250
he's just crazy.

749
00:21:45,220 --> 00:21:46,680
And and it's I

750
00:21:48,690 --> 00:21:50,109
always wondered why, you know,

751
00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:52,359
why it isn't obvious to

752
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:53,700
everybody else in this.

753
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:54,720
And and I

754
00:21:54,819 --> 00:21:55,920
Temple Grandin has been

755
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:56,859
following my work.

756
00:21:56,940 --> 00:21:58,000
She's she

757
00:21:59,339 --> 00:22:00,319
mentioned me a couple of times

758
00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:01,599
in her livestock care book,

759
00:22:02,039 --> 00:22:03,960
and I had the opportunity to go

760
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:04,759
down a meter.

761
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,190
So we're there talking and she

762
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:08,190
just stops

763
00:22:08,789 --> 00:22:10,210
just mid sentence.

764
00:22:10,410 --> 00:22:11,210
Just

765
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,880
did you know you're highly ADHD

766
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,220
and you're on the spectrum?

767
00:22:17,339 --> 00:22:19,980
So in other words, I'm like the

768
00:22:19,980 --> 00:22:21,640
the banjo player and

769
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:23,339
deliverance. Only it's cows that

770
00:22:23,339 --> 00:22:24,700
set me off instead of music.

771
00:22:25,950 --> 00:22:26,750
So

772
00:22:28,170 --> 00:22:30,390
because she says the ADHD makes

773
00:22:30,390 --> 00:22:33,089
you see patterns and things that

774
00:22:33,089 --> 00:22:34,109
other people are missing.

775
00:22:35,569 --> 00:22:36,369
And then

776
00:22:36,690 --> 00:22:39,089
the autistic side makes you go

777
00:22:39,089 --> 00:22:39,970
in there and

778
00:22:42,069 --> 00:22:43,829
investigate it, you know, ask

779
00:22:43,829 --> 00:22:44,730
questions about it.

780
00:22:44,730 --> 00:22:46,089
And I've been doing that my

781
00:22:46,089 --> 00:22:47,630
whole life. So every place

782
00:22:48,420 --> 00:22:49,240
is different.

783
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,279
But you go in there and and

784
00:22:54,099 --> 00:22:56,039
get these heard these words

785
00:22:56,039 --> 00:22:56,839
rebooted.

786
00:22:57,539 --> 00:22:58,759
and put them in a pasture and

787
00:22:58,759 --> 00:23:00,099
they will migrate around the

788
00:23:00,099 --> 00:23:02,619
whole pasture. Now one of the

789
00:23:02,619 --> 00:23:04,200
things and this is another thing

790
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,940
that it's you know, going back

791
00:23:05,940 --> 00:23:07,259
to the intelligence of animals

792
00:23:07,259 --> 00:23:08,900
and what they know,

793
00:23:10,769 --> 00:23:12,109
everything we think we know

794
00:23:12,109 --> 00:23:12,930
about cows

795
00:23:13,759 --> 00:23:14,880
from grazing,

796
00:23:15,470 --> 00:23:16,269
from

797
00:23:17,609 --> 00:23:18,409
grazing

798
00:23:18,470 --> 00:23:19,849
traditionally or

799
00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:22,980
grazing with with the fences is

800
00:23:23,579 --> 00:23:25,519
actually it's

801
00:23:26,660 --> 00:23:28,740
only correct in that context.

802
00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:33,299
When those cows get rebooted and

803
00:23:33,299 --> 00:23:34,660
are acting like cows,

804
00:23:35,319 --> 00:23:37,640
their grazing habits change

805
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:38,579
tremendously.

806
00:23:39,420 --> 00:23:40,819
I was just about to begin asking

807
00:23:40,819 --> 00:23:41,619
you about that.

808
00:23:41,660 --> 00:23:42,559
How do they change?

809
00:23:43,309 --> 00:23:44,109
Well, in

810
00:23:45,890 --> 00:23:47,470
more ways probably than you can

811
00:23:47,470 --> 00:23:48,269
count.

812
00:23:49,349 --> 00:23:50,750
One of the things that they do

813
00:23:50,750 --> 00:23:52,369
is like if it's a growing

814
00:23:52,369 --> 00:23:53,169
season,

815
00:23:53,690 --> 00:23:54,730
they'll just start taking that

816
00:23:54,730 --> 00:23:55,529
top third.

817
00:23:57,309 --> 00:23:58,109
And, you know, you're getting

818
00:23:57,970 --> 00:23:58,910
some, you know,

819
00:24:01,079 --> 00:24:03,000
in your context is constantly

820
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:03,980
changing. You don't have the

821
00:24:03,980 --> 00:24:05,660
same context all day long,

822
00:24:06,170 --> 00:24:07,309
let alone, you know,

823
00:24:07,730 --> 00:24:08,529
it's totally,

824
00:24:09,599 --> 00:24:11,509
totally identical context

825
00:24:11,509 --> 00:24:13,049
between one rancher, one pasture

826
00:24:13,049 --> 00:24:13,849
and another.

827
00:24:13,930 --> 00:24:14,730
When,

828
00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:16,599
When the grasses come,

829
00:24:17,019 --> 00:24:18,339
you've got, especially if you

830
00:24:18,339 --> 00:24:19,579
have a diverse pasture, you've

831
00:24:19,579 --> 00:24:20,379
got

832
00:24:20,140 --> 00:24:22,339
some grasses coming on today,

833
00:24:23,559 --> 00:24:24,859
some forbs coming on three or

834
00:24:24,859 --> 00:24:25,880
four days from now,

835
00:24:26,609 --> 00:24:27,409
and

836
00:24:27,769 --> 00:24:30,200
then you have some different

837
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:31,640
grasses coming up three or four

838
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:32,440
weeks from now.

839
00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:34,359
So

840
00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:37,259
it's not like you're, you know,

841
00:24:37,299 --> 00:24:38,099
you talk about,

842
00:24:38,349 --> 00:24:39,690
you know, grazing at the correct

843
00:24:39,690 --> 00:24:42,569
time. Well, if you're in a, if

844
00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:44,329
you're in a situation where

845
00:24:44,329 --> 00:24:45,710
you're planting your forage in

846
00:24:45,710 --> 00:24:46,509
that,

847
00:24:46,250 --> 00:24:48,009
yeah, you can, you can kind of

848
00:24:48,009 --> 00:24:48,809
time it that way.

849
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:50,299
Especially if you're in a

850
00:24:50,299 --> 00:24:52,740
monocrop situation, but when you

851
00:24:52,740 --> 00:24:54,259
actually get into diversity

852
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:56,200
everything's coming up at

853
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:57,000
different times

854
00:24:58,250 --> 00:25:00,109
and one of the things that is

855
00:25:00,259 --> 00:25:01,960
you know, if you watch herds of

856
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:02,759
elk

857
00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:04,859
or herds of antelope,

858
00:25:05,339 --> 00:25:06,680
there's times they're all spread

859
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:07,779
out and they'll be going along.

860
00:25:08,019 --> 00:25:09,019
And then all of a sudden they'll

861
00:25:09,019 --> 00:25:10,539
just come in together real tight

862
00:25:10,539 --> 00:25:11,339
and

863
00:25:11,390 --> 00:25:12,369
they'll stay real tight for a

864
00:25:12,369 --> 00:25:13,250
little bit and then they go back

865
00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:14,049
out.

866
00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:15,339
And what they're doing,

867
00:25:16,299 --> 00:25:17,920
they're being highly selective

868
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:19,130
for nutrition.

869
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,140
And we have totally blown that

870
00:25:25,140 --> 00:25:26,480
out of our cattle because,

871
00:25:27,109 --> 00:25:28,470
you know, we were not,

872
00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:31,109
we don't, we've blown that herd

873
00:25:31,109 --> 00:25:32,769
instinct out of them from our

874
00:25:32,769 --> 00:25:33,569
livestock.

875
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:35,789
or stockmanship.

876
00:25:37,819 --> 00:25:40,380
So once you get that back,

877
00:25:41,170 --> 00:25:42,470
they completely change their

878
00:25:42,470 --> 00:25:43,269
grazing habits.

879
00:25:44,089 --> 00:25:46,789
And one of the things that I I'd

880
00:25:47,329 --> 00:25:50,619
really like to to figure out why

881
00:25:52,380 --> 00:25:54,140
when I go into a place and I

882
00:25:54,140 --> 00:25:55,019
start doing

883
00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:56,990
a school

884
00:25:57,670 --> 00:25:59,349
on the third day, and I mean,

885
00:25:59,369 --> 00:26:01,329
it's like clockwork on the third

886
00:26:01,329 --> 00:26:02,129
day,

887
00:26:02,589 --> 00:26:03,769
they start eating things that

888
00:26:03,769 --> 00:26:04,569
they've ignored.

889
00:26:05,150 --> 00:26:06,450
They'll start eating things that

890
00:26:06,450 --> 00:26:08,170
people say, well, they never eat

891
00:26:08,170 --> 00:26:08,970
that

892
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:11,480
spotted

893
00:26:12,589 --> 00:26:13,849
knapweed or

894
00:26:14,380 --> 00:26:16,619
spotted knapweed, leafy spurge.

895
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:18,000
Um,

896
00:26:18,410 --> 00:26:19,210
iron weed.

897
00:26:19,660 --> 00:26:22,019
And I hear people say, Oh, I had

898
00:26:22,019 --> 00:26:23,680
one guy that, that he was trying

899
00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:25,240
to tell me that he'd pay me.

900
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,299
And if I was really an

901
00:26:28,220 --> 00:26:30,259
evil, greedy son of a gun, I

902
00:26:30,259 --> 00:26:31,500
would have taken them up on it

903
00:26:31,750 --> 00:26:34,069
because he told me he'd pay me a

904
00:26:34,069 --> 00:26:35,950
thousand dollars a head for

905
00:26:35,950 --> 00:26:38,150
every cow that I could get to

906
00:26:38,150 --> 00:26:39,609
eat ragweed. And you can bring

907
00:26:39,609 --> 00:26:41,109
your own cows. Well, I'm just

908
00:26:41,109 --> 00:26:42,390
cow. I work for everybody else.

909
00:26:42,430 --> 00:26:43,809
I don't have my own cows.

910
00:26:43,869 --> 00:26:44,669
I said,

911
00:26:44,410 --> 00:26:45,529
well, I'll go down and I'll do

912
00:26:45,529 --> 00:26:46,470
it on yours. And on the third

913
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:47,369
day, they'll be eating it.

914
00:26:47,589 --> 00:26:48,609
And he just got all hooked up

915
00:26:48,609 --> 00:26:49,409
and he

916
00:26:49,230 --> 00:26:50,029
You know,

917
00:26:49,950 --> 00:26:51,490
if I would have, if I would have

918
00:26:51,490 --> 00:26:52,930
taken him up on that, I would

919
00:26:52,930 --> 00:26:53,789
have owned his Calvert.

920
00:26:54,940 --> 00:26:55,779
because that was back when

921
00:26:55,779 --> 00:26:57,099
prices were down a little bit.

922
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,539
But there's something in that

923
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,690
to where it changes where they

924
00:27:05,690 --> 00:27:06,490
bite on the plant,

925
00:27:07,150 --> 00:27:08,269
and it changes their timing.

926
00:27:08,450 --> 00:27:09,250
They're going through.

927
00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:13,349
Ricky Kremers up in Wyoming,

928
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:15,480
actually,

929
00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:16,839
and this is blowing.

930
00:27:17,500 --> 00:27:18,299
You

931
00:27:20,279 --> 00:27:21,740
can only raise these rangelands

932
00:27:22,049 --> 00:27:23,349
once. You've got to let them

933
00:27:23,349 --> 00:27:24,869
rest for a year or 18 months.

934
00:27:25,890 --> 00:27:27,930
And we were talking about this

935
00:27:27,930 --> 00:27:29,569
deal of the different plants

936
00:27:29,569 --> 00:27:30,509
coming up at the different

937
00:27:30,509 --> 00:27:31,829
times. They're grazing for

938
00:27:31,829 --> 00:27:32,629
nutrition.

939
00:27:33,420 --> 00:27:34,220
And

940
00:27:33,940 --> 00:27:36,170
yeah, you might have 10 ,000

941
00:27:36,170 --> 00:27:37,710
head of bison go through an area

942
00:27:38,309 --> 00:27:39,529
and they're not going to be back

943
00:27:39,529 --> 00:27:40,329
for a year or two.

944
00:27:41,599 --> 00:27:42,399
But you know what?

945
00:27:43,420 --> 00:27:44,579
Maybe six weeks later,

946
00:27:45,130 --> 00:27:46,549
you had 10 ,000 elk go through

947
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:47,349
the same spot

948
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,740
at a little bit different angle.

949
00:27:50,539 --> 00:27:52,019
And then, you know, you might

950
00:27:52,019 --> 00:27:53,819
have 10 ,000 antelope or a

951
00:27:53,819 --> 00:27:54,920
thousand deer or whatever.

952
00:27:55,299 --> 00:27:56,460
These herds were constantly

953
00:27:56,460 --> 00:27:57,940
crisscrossing and they were

954
00:27:57,940 --> 00:27:59,960
selecting for what was

955
00:28:02,250 --> 00:28:03,049
best

956
00:28:03,910 --> 00:28:04,730
nutrition

957
00:28:05,250 --> 00:28:06,170
for the time that they were

958
00:28:06,170 --> 00:28:06,970
crossing.

959
00:28:07,009 --> 00:28:07,809
Exactly.

960
00:28:08,089 --> 00:28:09,309
So by using this,

961
00:28:09,650 --> 00:28:11,809
she's actually set up where

962
00:28:11,809 --> 00:28:12,609
she's grazing

963
00:28:12,849 --> 00:28:14,009
half the ranch.

964
00:28:14,369 --> 00:28:15,169
She gives

965
00:28:15,059 --> 00:28:17,180
one half the ranch off during

966
00:28:17,180 --> 00:28:18,039
the growing season.

967
00:28:19,019 --> 00:28:21,220
The other half she's grazing.

968
00:28:22,710 --> 00:28:23,509
Well,

969
00:28:23,250 --> 00:28:24,490
she has

970
00:28:25,130 --> 00:28:26,230
gotten

971
00:28:27,019 --> 00:28:29,059
it down to where she's almost

972
00:28:29,059 --> 00:28:30,599
tripled the size of her cow

973
00:28:30,599 --> 00:28:31,399
herd.

974
00:28:32,529 --> 00:28:33,329
Plus she,

975
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:35,920
which that sounds impressive

976
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:36,819
enough, but

977
00:28:37,390 --> 00:28:38,849
she brings in

978
00:28:39,670 --> 00:28:42,089
cows of people that, that they

979
00:28:42,089 --> 00:28:43,289
run out of grass every year.

980
00:28:43,650 --> 00:28:46,329
So she brings in 700 cows on top

981
00:28:46,329 --> 00:28:47,970
of that for three or four months

982
00:28:47,970 --> 00:28:48,769
in the winter.

983
00:28:51,220 --> 00:28:52,019
In order to

984
00:28:52,269 --> 00:28:53,269
do that,

985
00:28:53,740 --> 00:28:55,519
she's going across that

986
00:28:56,059 --> 00:28:57,279
other half of the ranch

987
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,299
three and sometimes four times

988
00:29:01,180 --> 00:29:02,720
during the year and still

989
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,400
stockpiling because those cows

990
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:05,740
are eating something different

991
00:29:05,740 --> 00:29:06,660
every time they go through.

992
00:29:08,180 --> 00:29:09,960
All right. So let's let's talk

993
00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,240
about this. We've been having

994
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:12,119
somewhat

995
00:29:13,140 --> 00:29:15,000
theoretical conversation up to

996
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,079
this point. And I love this

997
00:29:17,079 --> 00:29:18,140
conversation, Bob, but

998
00:29:18,509 --> 00:29:19,450
give us

999
00:29:21,119 --> 00:29:22,359
Paint us a picture in our

1000
00:29:22,359 --> 00:29:23,740
imagination as well as you're

1001
00:29:23,740 --> 00:29:26,779
able to. If you integrate this

1002
00:29:27,500 --> 00:29:30,559
type of cow movement that you

1003
00:29:30,559 --> 00:29:32,529
are describing where you have

1004
00:29:32,529 --> 00:29:33,930
essentially these murmurations

1005
00:29:33,930 --> 00:29:35,470
of livestock moving across the

1006
00:29:35,470 --> 00:29:37,109
landscape without fencing, only

1007
00:29:37,109 --> 00:29:38,309
picking what is most nutritious

1008
00:29:38,309 --> 00:29:39,549
at a certain point in time,

1009
00:29:40,809 --> 00:29:42,210
what does that look like

1010
00:29:42,210 --> 00:29:44,009
practically? What is the minimum

1011
00:29:44,009 --> 00:29:45,349
herd size that is needed to make

1012
00:29:45,349 --> 00:29:46,149
that work?

1013
00:29:47,250 --> 00:29:48,730
That's what's really cool.

1014
00:29:49,849 --> 00:29:51,130
I had a guy

1015
00:29:53,039 --> 00:29:53,839
in

1016
00:29:54,150 --> 00:29:55,950
Mississippi, wanted to try it

1017
00:29:55,950 --> 00:29:56,750
back there.

1018
00:29:56,670 --> 00:29:57,470
He had

1019
00:29:57,519 --> 00:29:58,579
five cows

1020
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:00,960
and 10 ewes.

1021
00:30:02,819 --> 00:30:03,779
And I said, boy, this is going

1022
00:30:03,779 --> 00:30:05,680
to be hard to try to do a school

1023
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:06,740
on that small a number.

1024
00:30:07,990 --> 00:30:09,549
And so he had a friend of his

1025
00:30:09,549 --> 00:30:10,910
that had 180 head

1026
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,119
and then another guy that had

1027
00:30:13,119 --> 00:30:15,410
another 150, 200 head

1028
00:30:16,609 --> 00:30:17,789
and then one of his neighbors.

1029
00:30:18,049 --> 00:30:20,160
So I was going to rather than

1030
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,200
try to actually go through the

1031
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:23,519
reboot process, I told him what

1032
00:30:23,519 --> 00:30:24,319
we could do.

1033
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:25,640
We can go around to these

1034
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:27,700
different places and work with

1035
00:30:28,589 --> 00:30:29,849
each one of these herds.

1036
00:30:30,490 --> 00:30:31,970
You know, we'll work with yours

1037
00:30:31,970 --> 00:30:32,789
in the morning, we'll go

1038
00:30:32,789 --> 00:30:33,650
somebody else's.

1039
00:30:34,289 --> 00:30:36,029
And then the next day we'll go

1040
00:30:36,029 --> 00:30:37,950
someplace else or we can go back

1041
00:30:37,950 --> 00:30:38,750
and forth.

1042
00:30:38,869 --> 00:30:40,369
And so it's like the one day we

1043
00:30:40,369 --> 00:30:41,859
actually worked with three

1044
00:30:41,859 --> 00:30:42,659
different,

1045
00:30:42,750 --> 00:30:44,089
you know, two of the other herds

1046
00:30:44,369 --> 00:30:45,169
on top of here.

1047
00:30:46,259 --> 00:30:48,740
And when we got there or when I

1048
00:30:48,740 --> 00:30:49,640
got there, of

1049
00:30:50,049 --> 00:30:50,849
course I do have all my

1050
00:30:50,809 --> 00:30:51,609
personalities.

1051
00:30:52,069 --> 00:30:52,869
Uh,

1052
00:30:52,609 --> 00:30:53,470
we,

1053
00:30:55,220 --> 00:30:56,480
you know, I get there and

1054
00:30:58,259 --> 00:30:59,640
we're going to move these cows

1055
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:00,440
and

1056
00:31:02,069 --> 00:31:04,130
I literally had to run into them

1057
00:31:04,130 --> 00:31:05,849
to get them and push them to get

1058
00:31:05,849 --> 00:31:06,649
them to move.

1059
00:31:08,190 --> 00:31:09,109
They were that dead.

1060
00:31:09,450 --> 00:31:10,750
Whenever he knew needed to move

1061
00:31:10,750 --> 00:31:11,609
and he'd go out there with a

1062
00:31:11,609 --> 00:31:12,730
bucket of feed and he'd move

1063
00:31:12,730 --> 00:31:13,529
them around.

1064
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,140
Well, I started, you know, just

1065
00:31:16,140 --> 00:31:17,359
kind of pushing them and moving

1066
00:31:17,359 --> 00:31:20,160
them. And, and it wound up being

1067
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:21,779
a really fun week because we're

1068
00:31:21,779 --> 00:31:22,960
going between the other ones.

1069
00:31:23,059 --> 00:31:24,400
And he had a bunch of chickens

1070
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:25,400
running around and he,

1071
00:31:26,140 --> 00:31:27,460
and I'm trying to explain to

1072
00:31:27,460 --> 00:31:28,259
him. I said,

1073
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,039
all of these, anything that's,

1074
00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:31,759
that's eating. And this is

1075
00:31:31,759 --> 00:31:32,559
something that,

1076
00:31:33,579 --> 00:31:35,220
that I figured out too, is that

1077
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,480
we used to, you know, the cow,

1078
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,319
the sheep and goats used to

1079
00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:41,559
graze together, cows scatter

1080
00:31:41,559 --> 00:31:42,359
out.

1081
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:43,180
Now, a lot of places you go,

1082
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:44,440
the sheep and goats are

1083
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:45,240
scattered out too.

1084
00:31:45,849 --> 00:31:48,769
And, and it's because we used to

1085
00:31:48,769 --> 00:31:50,750
handle sheep and goats one way,

1086
00:31:50,769 --> 00:31:52,089
then we handle cows and other,

1087
00:31:52,309 --> 00:31:53,410
then we just started handling

1088
00:31:53,410 --> 00:31:54,410
everything like cows.

1089
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,819
So he's got this flock of

1090
00:31:56,819 --> 00:31:57,619
chickens over there.

1091
00:31:57,539 --> 00:31:58,339
And I said, you know,

1092
00:31:58,710 --> 00:31:59,509
I said,

1093
00:31:59,910 --> 00:32:00,710
you,

1094
00:32:01,079 --> 00:32:02,539
any animal that,

1095
00:32:03,029 --> 00:32:05,750
that is a grazer or a browser,

1096
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:07,839
they've all got these same

1097
00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:09,160
instincts. So I started herding

1098
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:09,960
his chickens around

1099
00:32:11,819 --> 00:32:12,619
and

1100
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:13,680
I've,

1101
00:32:13,849 --> 00:32:15,750
it works with elk.

1102
00:32:16,230 --> 00:32:18,029
It works with deer,

1103
00:32:18,559 --> 00:32:19,359
antelope,

1104
00:32:19,930 --> 00:32:20,730
kangaroos.

1105
00:32:21,559 --> 00:32:22,980
I even, I even played around

1106
00:32:22,980 --> 00:32:23,960
with an Amy when I was in

1107
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:24,759
Australia,

1108
00:32:25,130 --> 00:32:26,710
all of this stuff works on the

1109
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:27,710
same, but, but

1110
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:30,250
it's the opposite of what our

1111
00:32:30,250 --> 00:32:31,650
minds are is because we're going

1112
00:32:31,650 --> 00:32:32,589
on a predator.

1113
00:32:33,450 --> 00:32:34,490
We've got to put the pressure on

1114
00:32:34,490 --> 00:32:35,609
it. Like we're going to get you.

1115
00:32:35,730 --> 00:32:37,250
And then they move off

1116
00:32:38,299 --> 00:32:39,099
and then.

1117
00:32:39,519 --> 00:32:41,259
we get around it because we're

1118
00:32:41,259 --> 00:32:42,059
going to stop you.

1119
00:32:42,529 --> 00:32:43,329
And

1120
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:46,799
if you start using their, their

1121
00:32:46,799 --> 00:32:47,660
instincts for,

1122
00:32:48,170 --> 00:32:48,970
okay,

1123
00:32:49,589 --> 00:32:50,849
all I have to do if I'm wanting

1124
00:32:50,849 --> 00:32:53,430
to stop a herd is right up and

1125
00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:55,009
just start kind of, kind of keep

1126
00:32:55,009 --> 00:32:56,470
a straight line and, and drift

1127
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:57,410
off a little bit.

1128
00:32:57,930 --> 00:33:00,349
And they'll, those ones in the

1129
00:33:00,349 --> 00:33:01,149
front front,

1130
00:33:01,460 --> 00:33:03,640
well, actually you can, you can,

1131
00:33:05,809 --> 00:33:06,990
That's what I usually do,

1132
00:33:07,049 --> 00:33:08,109
because I like keeping my horses

1133
00:33:08,109 --> 00:33:08,909
limber.

1134
00:33:08,789 --> 00:33:10,390
If your horse doesn't have any

1135
00:33:10,390 --> 00:33:11,609
lateral movement, or if you're

1136
00:33:11,609 --> 00:33:12,569
on foot, you can just turn

1137
00:33:12,569 --> 00:33:14,150
around and walk off at about a

1138
00:33:14,150 --> 00:33:16,049
45 degree angle, and those cows

1139
00:33:16,049 --> 00:33:17,750
will stop and look at you.

1140
00:33:17,930 --> 00:33:19,009
You're not having to go up there

1141
00:33:19,009 --> 00:33:20,950
and get the eye or get in front

1142
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:21,750
of them to block them.

1143
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:24,319
So we're using all this predator

1144
00:33:24,319 --> 00:33:25,599
stuff on the pressure and

1145
00:33:25,599 --> 00:33:26,399
release.

1146
00:33:29,339 --> 00:33:30,859
And Josh

1147
00:33:31,490 --> 00:33:32,289
Hoy

1148
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:34,910
coined it. He says, any time

1149
00:33:34,910 --> 00:33:35,869
that you're doing

1150
00:33:36,470 --> 00:33:38,369
pressure and release, he says,

1151
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:40,049
you're doing reactive.

1152
00:33:41,609 --> 00:33:42,409
You know, oh,

1153
00:33:42,829 --> 00:33:43,710
well, they're doing this.

1154
00:33:43,809 --> 00:33:45,269
I've got to go over and do this.

1155
00:33:45,329 --> 00:33:47,250
And what what we're doing is

1156
00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:48,049
proactive

1157
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:49,420
and you

1158
00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:52,599
see something start to develop.

1159
00:33:53,140 --> 00:33:55,509
So you just kind of do what you

1160
00:33:55,509 --> 00:33:56,970
need to do to keep it from

1161
00:33:56,970 --> 00:33:57,769
developing,

1162
00:33:58,819 --> 00:33:59,940
if that makes any sense.

1163
00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:01,279
And that's that's kind of hard

1164
00:34:01,279 --> 00:34:02,460
because we

1165
00:34:04,819 --> 00:34:05,640
have a hard time

1166
00:34:06,329 --> 00:34:07,509
popping into this

1167
00:34:08,590 --> 00:34:09,650
paradigm

1168
00:34:10,030 --> 00:34:11,210
because we're

1169
00:34:12,159 --> 00:34:12,960
taught

1170
00:34:13,550 --> 00:34:15,449
from as soon as we start working

1171
00:34:15,449 --> 00:34:16,429
cows, this is where you're

1172
00:34:16,429 --> 00:34:17,230
supposed to do it.

1173
00:34:17,690 --> 00:34:19,969
And what happens is we get that

1174
00:34:19,969 --> 00:34:21,110
so set in our minds

1175
00:34:21,610 --> 00:34:22,410
that

1176
00:34:23,380 --> 00:34:24,960
We can't see that there's

1177
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:26,139
something else, but it doesn't,

1178
00:34:26,179 --> 00:34:27,380
it just doesn't sound right.

1179
00:34:29,679 --> 00:34:31,340
Yeah. So Bob, let me,

1180
00:34:32,570 --> 00:34:34,690
let me tell you what I'm

1181
00:34:34,690 --> 00:34:35,889
hearing. from you, what I'm

1182
00:34:35,889 --> 00:34:36,949
understanding, and then you

1183
00:34:36,949 --> 00:34:38,250
correct or

1184
00:34:38,590 --> 00:34:39,789
you add the things that I'm

1185
00:34:39,789 --> 00:34:41,110
missing, of which I'm sure there

1186
00:34:41,110 --> 00:34:41,910
are many.

1187
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:43,519
So what I'm hearing you describe

1188
00:34:43,739 --> 00:34:44,659
is that

1189
00:34:45,099 --> 00:34:46,900
you move cattle

1190
00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:49,579
across a landscape by creating

1191
00:34:49,579 --> 00:34:50,699
murmurations,

1192
00:34:51,059 --> 00:34:51,860
by

1193
00:34:52,110 --> 00:34:55,039
essentially being proactive

1194
00:34:55,039 --> 00:34:58,199
in guiding cattle with intention

1195
00:34:58,199 --> 00:35:00,539
to the direction that you want

1196
00:35:00,539 --> 00:35:01,340
them to go in.

1197
00:35:02,090 --> 00:35:03,690
and that from a grazing

1198
00:35:03,690 --> 00:35:05,110
management perspective this

1199
00:35:05,110 --> 00:35:08,280
looks like the cattle are just

1200
00:35:08,559 --> 00:35:11,449
they're making multiple passes

1201
00:35:11,730 --> 00:35:14,889
across the field in a season and

1202
00:35:14,889 --> 00:35:16,429
they are at each pass through

1203
00:35:16,429 --> 00:35:17,849
they are taking through what is

1204
00:35:17,849 --> 00:35:19,250
that optimal attrition at that

1205
00:35:19,250 --> 00:35:20,050
moment

1206
00:35:19,940 --> 00:35:21,260
and leaving the rest

1207
00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:23,440
and you

1208
00:35:23,780 --> 00:35:25,219
are bringing them to I remember

1209
00:35:25,219 --> 00:35:26,179
you saying you're bringing them

1210
00:35:26,179 --> 00:35:27,519
to water at a certain time of

1211
00:35:27,519 --> 00:35:28,679
the day a consistent time of day

1212
00:35:28,679 --> 00:35:29,659
you're you're having them all

1213
00:35:29,659 --> 00:35:30,820
ruminated at a consistent time

1214
00:35:30,820 --> 00:35:31,620
of day

1215
00:35:31,769 --> 00:35:33,210
and that combination

1216
00:35:34,150 --> 00:35:36,130
of movement and pattern

1217
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,440
gives you increased forage

1218
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:39,519
productivity and increased

1219
00:35:39,519 --> 00:35:40,320
yield.

1220
00:35:40,510 --> 00:35:41,750
And also I would expect gives

1221
00:35:41,750 --> 00:35:43,429
you much calmer cattle as well.

1222
00:35:43,570 --> 00:35:44,370
So that's,

1223
00:35:44,380 --> 00:35:45,800
that's what I've gathered from

1224
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:46,600
you so far.

1225
00:35:46,860 --> 00:35:47,739
It, it, it does.

1226
00:35:47,820 --> 00:35:48,620
The cattle,

1227
00:35:50,250 --> 00:35:51,909
Chris Jorgensen, he was working

1228
00:35:51,909 --> 00:35:53,289
for, for MASHTO when,

1229
00:35:53,690 --> 00:35:55,130
when I worked with him the first

1230
00:35:55,130 --> 00:35:55,930
time.

1231
00:35:56,179 --> 00:35:58,269
And he told me later on that

1232
00:35:58,269 --> 00:35:59,449
winter, he goes, you know,

1233
00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:02,599
my cattle have always been

1234
00:36:02,599 --> 00:36:03,980
gentle. I always get them gentle

1235
00:36:03,980 --> 00:36:05,239
down and they handle good.

1236
00:36:05,860 --> 00:36:07,019
And I thought that.

1237
00:36:07,590 --> 00:36:09,269
that they were pretty stress

1238
00:36:09,269 --> 00:36:10,070
-free, but he says,

1239
00:36:10,429 --> 00:36:12,690
I never knew what stress -free

1240
00:36:12,690 --> 00:36:15,789
cattle truly looked like until I

1241
00:36:16,750 --> 00:36:17,690
started doing this.

1242
00:36:18,559 --> 00:36:20,000
And that's something else, too,

1243
00:36:20,079 --> 00:36:20,880
that we've got to,

1244
00:36:22,730 --> 00:36:24,409
or we don't have to, but it's

1245
00:36:24,409 --> 00:36:25,489
probably beneficial to.

1246
00:36:27,780 --> 00:36:28,920
The number one,

1247
00:36:29,300 --> 00:36:30,100
you know, everybody's saying,

1248
00:36:30,130 --> 00:36:32,250
oh, look, my cows, they're fine,

1249
00:36:32,369 --> 00:36:33,170
they're out there, they got

1250
00:36:33,150 --> 00:36:33,950
their heads down, they're

1251
00:36:33,849 --> 00:36:34,650
eating,

1252
00:36:34,409 --> 00:36:36,210
they don't have any stress.

1253
00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:38,639
Well, the number one

1254
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,460
comment from people who've had a

1255
00:36:42,460 --> 00:36:44,550
friend or family member commit

1256
00:36:44,550 --> 00:36:46,730
suicide is they never had a

1257
00:36:46,730 --> 00:36:47,530
clue.

1258
00:36:48,550 --> 00:36:50,469
So if you don't have a clue that

1259
00:36:50,619 --> 00:36:52,280
a close friend or a family

1260
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:53,260
member is

1261
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,360
stressed out enough to kill

1262
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:56,160
himself,

1263
00:36:57,949 --> 00:36:59,289
How can you look, how can you

1264
00:36:59,289 --> 00:37:00,489
say that you can look at a bunch

1265
00:37:00,489 --> 00:37:01,949
of cows and say they're not

1266
00:37:01,949 --> 00:37:02,750
stressed?

1267
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:06,320
Because it's a different, you

1268
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:07,380
know, it's the,

1269
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:09,519
they will,

1270
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:10,699
I mean, when they,

1271
00:37:12,340 --> 00:37:13,679
when you go and you've got your

1272
00:37:13,679 --> 00:37:15,079
cattle and you're scattered out

1273
00:37:15,079 --> 00:37:15,880
and,

1274
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:17,120
and they

1275
00:37:17,260 --> 00:37:18,500
go to bed

1276
00:37:18,809 --> 00:37:20,050
down to ruminate and you say,

1277
00:37:20,130 --> 00:37:21,449
you got a group of 10 and

1278
00:37:22,110 --> 00:37:23,190
they're laying down together and

1279
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:24,469
they will lay down in exactly

1280
00:37:24,469 --> 00:37:26,130
the same place every day.

1281
00:37:27,710 --> 00:37:28,590
Well, when you get these

1282
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:30,179
animals rebooted,

1283
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:32,039
they don't like laying down on

1284
00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:34,000
their same manure every day.

1285
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,519
and they will go to a different

1286
00:37:37,519 --> 00:37:38,320
spot,

1287
00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:39,430
and

1288
00:37:40,090 --> 00:37:42,070
it'll be in the same area, but a

1289
00:37:42,070 --> 00:37:42,870
different spot.

1290
00:37:45,610 --> 00:37:47,170
Fernando Falomir, I don't know

1291
00:37:47,170 --> 00:37:47,970
if you've heard of him.

1292
00:37:48,289 --> 00:37:49,090
He's the

1293
00:37:50,150 --> 00:37:52,289
grazing consultant for

1294
00:37:52,289 --> 00:37:53,210
Understanding Ag.

1295
00:37:53,989 --> 00:37:56,949
He went to the first school I

1296
00:37:56,949 --> 00:37:58,670
did in Mexico for Alejandro

1297
00:37:58,670 --> 00:37:59,470
Carrillos,

1298
00:38:00,489 --> 00:38:01,289
and

1299
00:38:01,780 --> 00:38:02,960
his cows

1300
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:04,519
would

1301
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:06,590
graze, and then when they bed

1302
00:38:06,590 --> 00:38:07,409
down at night,

1303
00:38:08,739 --> 00:38:10,619
they've got a lot of brush down

1304
00:38:10,619 --> 00:38:11,960
there, so instead of being in

1305
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:13,800
the brush or bed down on the

1306
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:14,600
grass,

1307
00:38:14,659 --> 00:38:16,639
They would go up just past the

1308
00:38:16,639 --> 00:38:18,440
edge of the grass and bed down

1309
00:38:18,619 --> 00:38:19,659
on bare ground.

1310
00:38:21,179 --> 00:38:22,539
Well, they get up and, you know,

1311
00:38:22,619 --> 00:38:23,420
they've got

1312
00:38:23,579 --> 00:38:25,119
they've got cow pies.

1313
00:38:25,179 --> 00:38:26,900
and urine spots three

1314
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:28,080
foot apart.

1315
00:38:29,019 --> 00:38:30,619
Well, that mycorrhizal fungi can

1316
00:38:30,619 --> 00:38:31,789
travel 12,

1317
00:38:32,090 --> 00:38:33,369
you know, or six,

1318
00:38:33,869 --> 00:38:34,690
six to nine feet.

1319
00:38:34,809 --> 00:38:37,250
So you're looking at you've got

1320
00:38:37,250 --> 00:38:39,289
to you just created a big web of

1321
00:38:39,289 --> 00:38:40,090
fertility.

1322
00:38:41,079 --> 00:38:42,000
Well, the next night they come

1323
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:43,239
up there and they don't lay down

1324
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:44,079
in that same spot.

1325
00:38:44,079 --> 00:38:45,320
They lay down right next to it.

1326
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,239
And he had and like a lot of the

1327
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,719
country does in northern Mexico

1328
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:53,599
and all across the southwest,

1329
00:38:53,699 --> 00:38:55,039
there's volunteer Bermuda.

1330
00:38:55,639 --> 00:38:56,659
all over West Texas,

1331
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:58,800
but it's never very thick or

1332
00:38:58,800 --> 00:38:59,600
very...

1333
00:38:59,929 --> 00:39:01,050
He has

1334
00:39:02,289 --> 00:39:05,059
thousands of acres that he has

1335
00:39:05,059 --> 00:39:07,179
created that's, you know, it's

1336
00:39:07,179 --> 00:39:08,420
diverse, but it's predominantly

1337
00:39:08,420 --> 00:39:10,599
Bermuda because those cows would

1338
00:39:10,599 --> 00:39:11,719
lay down like that.

1339
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:13,480
And then as soon as it gets

1340
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:14,739
moisture, it's shooting out

1341
00:39:14,739 --> 00:39:16,199
rhizomes and runners up, boom,

1342
00:39:17,579 --> 00:39:18,699
and it covers it.

1343
00:39:19,789 --> 00:39:21,750
And that is something that, you

1344
00:39:21,750 --> 00:39:22,550
know,

1345
00:39:22,860 --> 00:39:24,300
when you're doing your fences,

1346
00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:26,230
you're not getting that with the

1347
00:39:26,230 --> 00:39:27,030
fences.

1348
00:39:26,909 --> 00:39:28,650
You're not getting that when

1349
00:39:28,650 --> 00:39:29,789
you're using the

1350
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:31,969
The beach bum fencing, you're

1351
00:39:31,969 --> 00:39:32,769
not getting it.

1352
00:39:32,750 --> 00:39:35,030
Then there's all of these things

1353
00:39:35,030 --> 00:39:36,670
that the cows will do naturally

1354
00:39:36,670 --> 00:39:37,510
on their own.

1355
00:39:38,389 --> 00:39:39,789
Don't do it when you're keeping

1356
00:39:39,789 --> 00:39:40,590
them,

1357
00:39:41,090 --> 00:39:42,809
you know, from, from just

1358
00:39:42,809 --> 00:39:43,710
naturally doing what they're

1359
00:39:43,710 --> 00:39:45,059
doing, you know, you're forcing

1360
00:39:45,059 --> 00:39:45,860
them into that.

1361
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:47,080
And

1362
00:39:47,179 --> 00:39:49,559
if you watch a lot of videos

1363
00:39:49,559 --> 00:39:50,360
where

1364
00:39:50,789 --> 00:39:52,469
people are making pasture moves

1365
00:39:53,070 --> 00:39:54,110
and I

1366
00:39:55,289 --> 00:39:56,369
mean, they go through that,

1367
00:39:56,429 --> 00:39:57,250
they're all at the gate and

1368
00:39:57,250 --> 00:39:58,050
they're balling.

1369
00:39:57,829 --> 00:39:59,210
So if they're at the gate and

1370
00:39:59,210 --> 00:40:00,130
they're balling or they're,

1371
00:40:00,130 --> 00:40:01,010
they're just standing there at

1372
00:40:01,010 --> 00:40:02,630
the gate, that's waiting for you

1373
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:03,430
to get there.

1374
00:40:03,699 --> 00:40:04,659
They're stressed out because

1375
00:40:04,659 --> 00:40:05,500
they're wanting to get fresh

1376
00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:06,300
feet.

1377
00:40:07,670 --> 00:40:09,860
And then when they turn out,

1378
00:40:11,219 --> 00:40:12,760
what happens is, you know, if

1379
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:13,760
they've got them like in a five

1380
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:14,560
acre or

1381
00:40:14,849 --> 00:40:16,530
two acre, whatever size, you

1382
00:40:16,530 --> 00:40:17,750
know, small bill, and they've

1383
00:40:17,750 --> 00:40:18,730
got 500 cows,

1384
00:40:19,099 --> 00:40:21,469
those cows fan out and bounce

1385
00:40:21,469 --> 00:40:22,929
off the fences and then come

1386
00:40:22,929 --> 00:40:23,730
back.

1387
00:40:24,650 --> 00:40:26,210
That isn't relaxed behavior.

1388
00:40:27,820 --> 00:40:28,980
And it's, and it's not

1389
00:40:29,329 --> 00:40:30,889
creating, you know,

1390
00:40:32,820 --> 00:40:34,559
if they're stressed, they're not

1391
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:37,079
performing as well.

1392
00:40:40,150 --> 00:40:41,889
What degree of human presence is

1393
00:40:41,889 --> 00:40:44,789
required to get cattle to behave

1394
00:40:44,789 --> 00:40:46,530
in this way and maintain their

1395
00:40:46,530 --> 00:40:47,330
behavior?

1396
00:40:49,070 --> 00:40:49,889
You know, there again, you got

1397
00:40:49,889 --> 00:40:51,349
to go on context because

1398
00:40:51,849 --> 00:40:53,750
You know, you get an area of

1399
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:56,070
rolling hills or flat ground.

1400
00:40:56,900 --> 00:40:57,700
And

1401
00:40:57,539 --> 00:40:58,480
I

1402
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,019
actually had a little group of

1403
00:41:01,019 --> 00:41:02,159
cows going for this hunting

1404
00:41:02,159 --> 00:41:03,659
ranch that had like 50 cows.

1405
00:41:04,469 --> 00:41:06,969
And but they were on like 30

1406
00:41:06,969 --> 00:41:07,769
sections.

1407
00:41:08,750 --> 00:41:10,010
I went to Australia for three

1408
00:41:10,010 --> 00:41:11,739
months, came back and they were

1409
00:41:11,739 --> 00:41:12,539
still together.

1410
00:41:14,329 --> 00:41:15,409
Pedro called Rone.

1411
00:41:15,510 --> 00:41:17,849
He's kind of my my protege.

1412
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,039
He's managing the bison herd for

1413
00:41:20,039 --> 00:41:20,860
American Prairie.

1414
00:41:21,139 --> 00:41:23,000
And he's seen the same thing

1415
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,159
that up to three months and

1416
00:41:26,159 --> 00:41:27,300
they'll still be together.

1417
00:41:28,050 --> 00:41:29,489
But if a person goes out there

1418
00:41:29,489 --> 00:41:30,510
and starts handling them

1419
00:41:30,510 --> 00:41:32,010
conventionally, they'll break up

1420
00:41:32,010 --> 00:41:32,810
real fast too.

1421
00:41:33,269 --> 00:41:34,570
Or if you just,

1422
00:41:35,820 --> 00:41:37,079
you know, like that place,

1423
00:41:38,110 --> 00:41:39,289
they were putting out deer feed

1424
00:41:39,539 --> 00:41:41,619
and they get down to the bottom

1425
00:41:41,619 --> 00:41:42,679
of the load and they get all

1426
00:41:42,679 --> 00:41:43,659
the, you know, all the crumbs,

1427
00:41:43,780 --> 00:41:45,579
all the fines, and they would go

1428
00:41:45,579 --> 00:41:47,179
out there and they had some

1429
00:41:47,179 --> 00:41:48,639
feeders set up and they would go

1430
00:41:48,639 --> 00:41:49,579
out there and they would honk

1431
00:41:49,579 --> 00:41:50,380
the horns.

1432
00:41:50,690 --> 00:41:51,490
I could tell

1433
00:41:52,099 --> 00:41:54,119
every time they did that,

1434
00:41:54,699 --> 00:41:55,760
just because of the fact that

1435
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:56,659
when I got there, those cattle

1436
00:41:56,659 --> 00:41:57,460
would be scattered out.

1437
00:41:59,219 --> 00:42:00,380
just from the stress of that.

1438
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:01,780
And I'd go out and I'd ride on

1439
00:42:01,780 --> 00:42:02,940
once and the next week they'd be

1440
00:42:02,940 --> 00:42:04,219
back together because it was

1441
00:42:04,219 --> 00:42:06,199
just a one -time event and it's

1442
00:42:06,199 --> 00:42:07,199
easy to put back together.

1443
00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:11,179
But this got me to thinking

1444
00:42:11,329 --> 00:42:12,670
on...

1445
00:42:14,420 --> 00:42:15,220
Let me just clarify.

1446
00:42:15,199 --> 00:42:16,099
something you just said.

1447
00:42:16,159 --> 00:42:17,119
You said you would write on them

1448
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:18,639
once so you could recreate their

1449
00:42:18,639 --> 00:42:20,059
original pattern of behavior,

1450
00:42:20,179 --> 00:42:21,059
which is a single day of

1451
00:42:21,059 --> 00:42:21,860
presence.

1452
00:42:23,579 --> 00:42:25,380
And it's not, it's not like a

1453
00:42:25,380 --> 00:42:27,519
single day of going all day,

1454
00:42:27,940 --> 00:42:28,740
right?

1455
00:42:28,739 --> 00:42:30,800
Because what, what you do when

1456
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,500
you, you put them back together,

1457
00:42:32,639 --> 00:42:33,860
you'll pick them up, put them

1458
00:42:33,860 --> 00:42:35,179
together and, and take them

1459
00:42:35,179 --> 00:42:37,199
someplace and then just

1460
00:42:37,869 --> 00:42:39,250
slow down and let them start

1461
00:42:39,250 --> 00:42:40,050
raising together.

1462
00:42:40,349 --> 00:42:41,550
And then you write off.

1463
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:42,550
You don't.

1464
00:42:43,079 --> 00:42:44,800
the thing about this is you're

1465
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:45,880
making it to

1466
00:42:46,260 --> 00:42:47,659
where it's their choice to be

1467
00:42:47,659 --> 00:42:48,460
together.

1468
00:42:49,269 --> 00:42:50,170
You know, when they did the roe

1469
00:42:50,170 --> 00:42:50,970
deer project,

1470
00:42:51,489 --> 00:42:52,760
uh, they,

1471
00:42:54,010 --> 00:42:56,449
and alder spring ranches is

1472
00:42:56,449 --> 00:42:57,510
doing the same thing where

1473
00:42:57,510 --> 00:42:58,530
they've got the herders.

1474
00:42:59,059 --> 00:42:59,860
And,

1475
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:01,119
and they, they said that they,

1476
00:43:01,449 --> 00:43:02,769
they tried doing what I do and

1477
00:43:02,769 --> 00:43:03,630
they couldn't get it done.

1478
00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:04,550
And,

1479
00:43:04,380 --> 00:43:05,180
and it's like,

1480
00:43:05,380 --> 00:43:06,840
they're taking all the cattle

1481
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:08,139
down, like at eight o 'clock in

1482
00:43:08,139 --> 00:43:08,940
the morning where they want the

1483
00:43:08,900 --> 00:43:09,700
cattle to be at water

1484
00:43:10,510 --> 00:43:12,250
at 10 o 'clock, they got to go

1485
00:43:12,250 --> 00:43:15,000
out. Well, the natural cycle is

1486
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:15,800
they will,

1487
00:43:15,949 --> 00:43:16,750
they will depending on the

1488
00:43:16,650 --> 00:43:18,190
amount of feed and how long it

1489
00:43:18,190 --> 00:43:19,050
takes them to get filled up.

1490
00:43:19,389 --> 00:43:21,230
They'll graze for four hours and

1491
00:43:22,539 --> 00:43:24,210
then they'll ruminate for four

1492
00:43:24,210 --> 00:43:25,469
hours and then they go back out.

1493
00:43:25,590 --> 00:43:26,390
So when you're

1494
00:43:26,980 --> 00:43:28,659
when you're forcing that issue,

1495
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,179
they can't relax enough

1496
00:43:30,559 --> 00:43:32,380
to come together as a herd.

1497
00:43:34,949 --> 00:43:37,110
And I started doing something

1498
00:43:37,110 --> 00:43:38,230
was

1499
00:43:40,019 --> 00:43:41,960
the Circle Ranch down here.

1500
00:43:42,659 --> 00:43:43,480
Chris Gill had it.

1501
00:43:43,539 --> 00:43:44,340
They were

1502
00:43:44,340 --> 00:43:45,719
big into the holistic

1503
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:46,519
management.

1504
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:49,139
And what I started doing is we

1505
00:43:49,139 --> 00:43:51,260
had a set of heifers from

1506
00:43:51,889 --> 00:43:53,389
King Ranch.

1507
00:43:54,219 --> 00:43:55,019
And

1508
00:43:55,070 --> 00:43:57,710
rather than going out and

1509
00:43:59,050 --> 00:44:00,909
calling the cattle in,

1510
00:44:01,590 --> 00:44:02,949
I asked the foreman if he would

1511
00:44:02,949 --> 00:44:04,590
start going out and

1512
00:44:04,929 --> 00:44:05,849
putting

1513
00:44:06,829 --> 00:44:07,630
the cake down,

1514
00:44:08,289 --> 00:44:09,309
you know, at a predetermined

1515
00:44:09,309 --> 00:44:10,489
deal. And I would just say, out

1516
00:44:10,489 --> 00:44:11,670
and I would bring the herd to

1517
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:12,470
them.

1518
00:44:12,110 --> 00:44:13,650
They never learned that that

1519
00:44:13,650 --> 00:44:14,469
feed truck was there.

1520
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:17,119
And what I did is I had them,

1521
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:19,099
you could do one or two things,

1522
00:44:19,119 --> 00:44:21,539
either start and make spiral out

1523
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:25,079
and, or take and make equal

1524
00:44:25,079 --> 00:44:27,179
lines of, you know, three or

1525
00:44:27,179 --> 00:44:28,679
four lines of equal length.

1526
00:44:29,869 --> 00:44:30,789
And when

1527
00:44:31,230 --> 00:44:33,190
you bring the cattle into that,

1528
00:44:35,019 --> 00:44:36,539
they just fan out and put your

1529
00:44:36,539 --> 00:44:37,579
heads down and they start

1530
00:44:37,579 --> 00:44:38,380
eating.

1531
00:44:39,130 --> 00:44:40,530
As versus with a feed truck,

1532
00:44:40,630 --> 00:44:41,809
boy, they're all hyped up and

1533
00:44:41,809 --> 00:44:42,809
they're running up to the truck.

1534
00:44:42,909 --> 00:44:44,269
Then they're fighting up to

1535
00:44:44,269 --> 00:44:45,630
around the truck while you're

1536
00:44:45,630 --> 00:44:47,250
waiting for everything to get in

1537
00:44:47,250 --> 00:44:48,829
before you start putting out the

1538
00:44:48,829 --> 00:44:49,630
feed.

1539
00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:50,780
And that adds

1540
00:44:51,730 --> 00:44:54,269
a half a pound a day to

1541
00:44:55,250 --> 00:44:56,230
the gain on those heifers.

1542
00:44:56,719 --> 00:44:57,519
Wow.

1543
00:45:01,159 --> 00:45:02,340
You know, and people go, well,

1544
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:03,539
that, that just seems like

1545
00:45:03,539 --> 00:45:04,340
that's a lot of work.

1546
00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:05,100
But

1547
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:07,619
the thing you have to realize is

1548
00:45:07,619 --> 00:45:09,420
these cattle handle so easily

1549
00:45:10,500 --> 00:45:11,960
that you can put them out over

1550
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:13,500
there a half mile away

1551
00:45:14,010 --> 00:45:14,810
and.

1552
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:16,480
move your truck and then just go

1553
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:17,599
trotting over to where you're,

1554
00:45:17,679 --> 00:45:18,480
you know, cause you're going to

1555
00:45:18,380 --> 00:45:19,380
have a good idea of where those

1556
00:45:19,380 --> 00:45:20,480
cattle are when you're taking

1557
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:21,360
them a couple of times a week.

1558
00:45:22,340 --> 00:45:23,920
You ride out there and you, you

1559
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:24,720
ride against them.

1560
00:45:24,699 --> 00:45:25,500
This is the other thing.

1561
00:45:25,300 --> 00:45:26,100
We don't push them.

1562
00:45:27,170 --> 00:45:29,230
We ride up to them at an angle

1563
00:45:29,230 --> 00:45:30,630
that asks them to go by us.

1564
00:45:30,809 --> 00:45:32,289
They go by us. You just kind of

1565
00:45:32,289 --> 00:45:33,150
ride along with them

1566
00:45:33,590 --> 00:45:34,530
and you

1567
00:45:35,449 --> 00:45:36,369
don't even have to be able to

1568
00:45:36,369 --> 00:45:37,809
see that feed. You can tell when

1569
00:45:37,809 --> 00:45:39,559
that first cow hits the feed

1570
00:45:39,559 --> 00:45:40,719
after the second or third time

1571
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:41,519
you feed them,

1572
00:45:41,750 --> 00:45:42,809
because it's just like an

1573
00:45:42,809 --> 00:45:43,610
electric truck.

1574
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:45,420
The one clear at the back knows

1575
00:45:45,420 --> 00:45:46,220
that they're there.

1576
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:47,739
They all line out, run and buck

1577
00:45:47,739 --> 00:45:48,539
and play.

1578
00:45:48,869 --> 00:45:49,670
Bob,

1579
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,340
the one question that comes to

1580
00:45:55,340 --> 00:45:56,340
mind, you mentioned that you

1581
00:45:56,340 --> 00:45:57,860
you've had a class in Missouri

1582
00:45:57,860 --> 00:45:59,000
and you have this rich

1583
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:00,460
experience in Mississippi,

1584
00:46:02,849 --> 00:46:04,030
rich experience in different

1585
00:46:04,030 --> 00:46:05,110
ecosystems and environments.

1586
00:46:06,719 --> 00:46:09,019
The one question that I have,

1587
00:46:09,139 --> 00:46:11,559
many of the people that where I

1588
00:46:11,559 --> 00:46:12,980
live here in Ohio, we're in a

1589
00:46:12,980 --> 00:46:14,480
high rainfall environment, 40,

1590
00:46:14,559 --> 00:46:15,820
50 inches of rainfall a year.

1591
00:46:17,809 --> 00:46:18,610
And

1592
00:46:19,079 --> 00:46:20,639
forage can go,

1593
00:46:20,980 --> 00:46:22,400
particularly in the fall, if we

1594
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,039
have an open wet fall,

1595
00:46:25,099 --> 00:46:27,139
forage can go from decent

1596
00:46:27,139 --> 00:46:28,579
quality to nutrition,

1597
00:46:28,820 --> 00:46:30,840
nutritional value to mulch.

1598
00:46:31,579 --> 00:46:33,320
in a matter of sometimes a

1599
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,099
couple of weeks with rainfall

1600
00:46:35,099 --> 00:46:36,400
and moisture and everything

1601
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:37,200
else.

1602
00:46:38,059 --> 00:46:38,860
And

1603
00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:40,550
also then in the season,

1604
00:46:41,599 --> 00:46:44,289
you have all of these different

1605
00:46:44,289 --> 00:46:45,849
forbs and plants coming to

1606
00:46:45,849 --> 00:46:47,969
nutritional optimums quite

1607
00:46:47,969 --> 00:46:49,449
rapidly, I would expect,

1608
00:46:49,670 --> 00:46:51,030
comparatively rapidly compared

1609
00:46:51,030 --> 00:46:52,250
to drier environments.

1610
00:46:53,989 --> 00:46:56,050
How do we adapt to

1611
00:46:56,389 --> 00:46:57,349
that context?

1612
00:47:01,159 --> 00:47:03,280
You're not going to really be

1613
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,420
able to get around that unless

1614
00:47:05,420 --> 00:47:06,900
you could possibly get more

1615
00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:07,700
cattle in.

1616
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,900
But if you, if you get the right

1617
00:47:10,900 --> 00:47:12,360
type of supplement,

1618
00:47:12,969 --> 00:47:13,769
you know,

1619
00:47:13,769 --> 00:47:14,750
high carb supplement,

1620
00:47:15,619 --> 00:47:16,420
uh,

1621
00:47:17,010 --> 00:47:18,690
where they can digest that,

1622
00:47:19,469 --> 00:47:20,869
then you can, you can get out

1623
00:47:20,869 --> 00:47:22,570
your grazing season longer.

1624
00:47:22,670 --> 00:47:24,429
I mean, they had the bison were

1625
00:47:24,429 --> 00:47:26,230
clear back to Ohio and they were

1626
00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:27,030
in Pennsylvania.

1627
00:47:27,250 --> 00:47:28,050
Yeah.

1628
00:47:28,469 --> 00:47:30,929
You know, elk were clear to the

1629
00:47:30,929 --> 00:47:31,730
East coast.

1630
00:47:31,909 --> 00:47:32,710
So

1631
00:47:32,769 --> 00:47:35,349
if all of these animals could

1632
00:47:37,349 --> 00:47:38,730
survive in that,

1633
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:40,309
then why are we having to feed

1634
00:47:40,309 --> 00:47:41,510
so many supplements and stuff?

1635
00:47:43,170 --> 00:47:45,570
And part of this is

1636
00:47:46,079 --> 00:47:46,880
because

1637
00:47:47,119 --> 00:47:49,280
we're calving out at the wrong

1638
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:50,820
time of year, because we've got

1639
00:47:50,820 --> 00:47:51,739
to be able to go out there and

1640
00:47:51,739 --> 00:47:52,539
make hay.

1641
00:47:53,369 --> 00:47:55,210
Because there's

1642
00:47:55,969 --> 00:47:56,769
a natural

1643
00:47:57,340 --> 00:47:59,500
way that their weight goes.

1644
00:47:59,610 --> 00:48:00,410
you know, they'll

1645
00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:02,260
go through the winter and

1646
00:48:02,260 --> 00:48:03,139
they're going to lose weight.

1647
00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:04,100
They're going to, you know,

1648
00:48:03,940 --> 00:48:04,740
they're going to lose some

1649
00:48:04,739 --> 00:48:05,539
weight during the winter.

1650
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:06,760
Then,

1651
00:48:06,769 --> 00:48:07,789
you know, you get that spring

1652
00:48:07,789 --> 00:48:10,070
flush coming on and they gain it

1653
00:48:10,070 --> 00:48:11,630
back pretty, pretty rapidly.

1654
00:48:12,309 --> 00:48:13,570
Then they give birth

1655
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,360
and they raise that animal and

1656
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:17,320
wean it right.

1657
00:48:17,699 --> 00:48:18,500
You know,

1658
00:48:18,639 --> 00:48:20,179
that nutrition is going down and

1659
00:48:20,179 --> 00:48:21,159
they just keep going through

1660
00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:21,960
that cycle.

1661
00:48:22,119 --> 00:48:24,059
And we have this deal where we

1662
00:48:24,059 --> 00:48:25,280
think that we need to keep them,

1663
00:48:25,769 --> 00:48:26,570
you know, at,

1664
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:27,600
at,

1665
00:48:27,730 --> 00:48:30,110
peak optimum nutrition all year

1666
00:48:30,110 --> 00:48:30,910
long.

1667
00:48:32,019 --> 00:48:33,269
And I

1668
00:48:34,150 --> 00:48:36,250
had a guy I worked with in

1669
00:48:36,250 --> 00:48:37,750
Montana, he wound up going to

1670
00:48:37,750 --> 00:48:38,550
the Ricks Ranch,

1671
00:48:39,590 --> 00:48:41,329
and he said that when

1672
00:48:41,730 --> 00:48:43,829
they changed their calving date

1673
00:48:45,110 --> 00:48:47,030
and quit feeding,

1674
00:48:48,170 --> 00:48:49,750
that it dropped their overall

1675
00:48:49,750 --> 00:48:50,769
cost

1676
00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:52,679
by 50%.

1677
00:48:55,780 --> 00:48:56,960
And how did it impact

1678
00:48:56,960 --> 00:48:57,760
profitability?

1679
00:48:59,590 --> 00:49:00,390
He

1680
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:01,960
said that they

1681
00:49:02,630 --> 00:49:03,730
calved later,

1682
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:05,880
but they weaned

1683
00:49:06,420 --> 00:49:07,840
on the same day.

1684
00:49:08,519 --> 00:49:10,880
And it only made 10 pounds a

1685
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:11,680
head difference.

1686
00:49:13,570 --> 00:49:14,370
I

1687
00:49:15,260 --> 00:49:16,619
can take, you can take a 10

1688
00:49:16,619 --> 00:49:17,539
pound drop in that.

1689
00:49:17,659 --> 00:49:19,099
If you can, if you can take out

1690
00:49:19,099 --> 00:49:20,559
half of your 50 % cost

1691
00:49:20,559 --> 00:49:22,039
reduction, my goodness,

1692
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:24,199
you know, and, and I

1693
00:49:24,639 --> 00:49:25,739
worked for Leachman cattle

1694
00:49:25,739 --> 00:49:28,579
company for well from about 91

1695
00:49:28,579 --> 00:49:31,940
to 95 or 92 to 95 right in there

1696
00:49:31,940 --> 00:49:32,740
someplace.

1697
00:49:33,119 --> 00:49:33,920
But

1698
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,019
people talk about the registered

1699
00:49:38,019 --> 00:49:39,579
cattle, you know, they, they,

1700
00:49:40,079 --> 00:49:41,039
They put them on so many

1701
00:49:41,039 --> 00:49:42,980
crutches. Now he, he did, of

1702
00:49:42,980 --> 00:49:44,420
course, he put all of his, his

1703
00:49:44,420 --> 00:49:45,739
ones going for the sale were

1704
00:49:45,739 --> 00:49:46,920
heifers and bulls went in the

1705
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:47,720
feedlot,

1706
00:49:47,989 --> 00:49:50,449
but his cows, he ran them tough

1707
00:49:50,449 --> 00:49:51,429
as tough as

1708
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,619
any commercial operator I've

1709
00:49:53,619 --> 00:49:54,420
seen.

1710
00:49:55,860 --> 00:49:58,760
He put them on, he had them on

1711
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,420
wheat stalks after they weaned,

1712
00:50:00,789 --> 00:50:03,099
and then they started,

1713
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:04,760
you know, they'd

1714
00:50:05,099 --> 00:50:06,059
go ahead and

1715
00:50:06,820 --> 00:50:09,559
bring in the heavies into the

1716
00:50:09,559 --> 00:50:10,699
calving pastures, bringers into

1717
00:50:10,699 --> 00:50:11,500
the calving pasture.

1718
00:50:12,380 --> 00:50:14,280
That calving pasture was just

1719
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:15,539
native grass,

1720
00:50:16,170 --> 00:50:18,489
and they would put up on these

1721
00:50:18,489 --> 00:50:20,480
ridges, they'd make windbreaks

1722
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,300
out of six straw bales, just

1723
00:50:22,699 --> 00:50:24,519
stack them up too high and they

1724
00:50:24,519 --> 00:50:25,639
would scatter some protein

1725
00:50:25,639 --> 00:50:26,440
blocks around them.

1726
00:50:26,829 --> 00:50:28,050
And when the storms came in,

1727
00:50:28,130 --> 00:50:29,230
they couldn't get to the cattle.

1728
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:31,130
Cattle just got up around those,

1729
00:50:31,409 --> 00:50:32,210
uh,

1730
00:50:33,949 --> 00:50:35,750
those hay, those straw bales and

1731
00:50:35,750 --> 00:50:37,130
they ate straw and protein

1732
00:50:37,130 --> 00:50:37,930
block.

1733
00:50:38,230 --> 00:50:39,469
And that's how they made it

1734
00:50:39,469 --> 00:50:40,510
through the winter on a

1735
00:50:40,510 --> 00:50:41,310
registered outfit.

1736
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:43,000
So those were some, you know,

1737
00:50:43,690 --> 00:50:44,889
in reality, those were some

1738
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:47,280
pretty good doing cows for

1739
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,679
being run the way they were as a

1740
00:50:49,679 --> 00:50:50,480
registered outfit.

1741
00:50:53,690 --> 00:50:54,510
Something you said earlier

1742
00:50:54,510 --> 00:50:55,310
really

1743
00:50:56,010 --> 00:50:57,309
stuck with me

1744
00:50:58,260 --> 00:50:59,239
and that was.

1745
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:02,539
The phrase that, this is my

1746
00:51:02,539 --> 00:51:03,820
paraphrasing, but essentially

1747
00:51:03,820 --> 00:51:05,920
having a predator's mindset

1748
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:06,720
versus,

1749
00:51:07,739 --> 00:51:09,119
I'll use the phrase a shepherd's

1750
00:51:09,119 --> 00:51:11,360
mindset of being a collaborator

1751
00:51:11,360 --> 00:51:13,260
with the herd instead of,

1752
00:51:13,659 --> 00:51:14,739
and shepherd can also have

1753
00:51:14,739 --> 00:51:15,639
different meanings, but

1754
00:51:16,269 --> 00:51:17,190
being

1755
00:51:17,730 --> 00:51:18,809
a collaborator with

1756
00:51:19,150 --> 00:51:21,570
or a guide rather than

1757
00:51:21,789 --> 00:51:24,170
engaging in that predatorial way

1758
00:51:24,739 --> 00:51:26,840
and kind of a subconscious place

1759
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:27,699
that we come from within.

1760
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:28,659
You know, it reminds me of one

1761
00:51:28,659 --> 00:51:29,679
of my favorite quotes

1762
00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:30,950
of

1763
00:51:32,659 --> 00:51:34,320
Otto Scharmer popularized it,

1764
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:35,739
but it was a business leader

1765
00:51:35,739 --> 00:51:36,880
named Bill O 'Brien who first

1766
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:37,719
put the quote together.

1767
00:51:37,820 --> 00:51:39,280
He said, the outcome of an

1768
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:40,380
intervention has

1769
00:51:41,139 --> 00:51:43,119
nothing to do with the

1770
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:44,940
skills or the ability of the

1771
00:51:44,940 --> 00:51:45,740
intervener.

1772
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:47,280
It has everything to do with the

1773
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:48,360
place within from which the

1774
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:49,160
intervener comes.

1775
00:51:50,079 --> 00:51:51,039
And of course, he was talking

1776
00:51:51,039 --> 00:51:53,320
about human interventions or in

1777
00:51:53,320 --> 00:51:54,719
human organizations when

1778
00:51:55,039 --> 00:51:56,940
we try to get people to change

1779
00:51:56,940 --> 00:51:58,059
their minds or go in a different

1780
00:51:58,059 --> 00:51:58,860
direction.

1781
00:52:00,190 --> 00:52:02,659
And there is a degree of what

1782
00:52:02,659 --> 00:52:03,699
you're describing that is very

1783
00:52:03,699 --> 00:52:04,960
similar. It's the place that we

1784
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:05,760
come from within.

1785
00:52:06,329 --> 00:52:07,269
And so within

1786
00:52:07,969 --> 00:52:09,329
that context, I'd love to get

1787
00:52:09,329 --> 00:52:10,949
your perspective or even just

1788
00:52:10,949 --> 00:52:12,250
more broadly in any way you want

1789
00:52:12,250 --> 00:52:13,050
to answer the question.

1790
00:52:13,110 --> 00:52:14,110
What are the what

1791
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:15,600
are the common

1792
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:17,980
I don't know if mistakes is the

1793
00:52:17,980 --> 00:52:19,019
right word, but the common

1794
00:52:19,019 --> 00:52:20,300
stumbling blocks that you see

1795
00:52:20,300 --> 00:52:21,940
people encounter that they have

1796
00:52:21,940 --> 00:52:23,300
a difficult time getting past.

1797
00:52:25,929 --> 00:52:28,130
OK, that goes back to the

1798
00:52:29,039 --> 00:52:31,179
basic human psychology,

1799
00:52:32,030 --> 00:52:32,830
how we learn.

1800
00:52:33,230 --> 00:52:34,030
And I mean,

1801
00:52:36,059 --> 00:52:37,920
life is basically one long

1802
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,559
indoctrination process from the

1803
00:52:40,559 --> 00:52:41,480
time we're born.

1804
00:52:42,079 --> 00:52:42,880
I mean,

1805
00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:43,920
think about it.

1806
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,159
You're you're told what you got

1807
00:52:45,159 --> 00:52:46,139
to think about religion.

1808
00:52:46,500 --> 00:52:47,780
You're told what you got to

1809
00:52:47,780 --> 00:52:48,580
think about

1810
00:52:48,590 --> 00:52:50,030
treating how you treat other

1811
00:52:50,030 --> 00:52:51,869
people, how you treat animals.

1812
00:52:52,699 --> 00:52:54,739
You know, you're when it gets

1813
00:52:54,739 --> 00:52:57,010
into into ranching and

1814
00:52:57,010 --> 00:52:59,190
stockmanship You're told what

1815
00:52:59,190 --> 00:53:00,469
you need to do to these animals

1816
00:53:00,469 --> 00:53:01,829
to get them to do what you want

1817
00:53:01,829 --> 00:53:03,690
them to do So you've got all of

1818
00:53:03,690 --> 00:53:05,150
this is buried in your mind.

1819
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:06,600
So

1820
00:53:07,230 --> 00:53:08,750
somebody comes along says, you

1821
00:53:08,750 --> 00:53:10,210
know There's a different way

1822
00:53:10,210 --> 00:53:11,250
that you can do this

1823
00:53:12,420 --> 00:53:14,199
and you haven't seen anything

1824
00:53:14,199 --> 00:53:16,079
close to that They're gonna look

1825
00:53:16,079 --> 00:53:17,380
at you and say you're crazy,

1826
00:53:18,550 --> 00:53:20,269
you know We've been taught all

1827
00:53:20,269 --> 00:53:21,929
the way through life

1828
00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:24,829
and even going into into school

1829
00:53:24,829 --> 00:53:26,909
you go to college and and it's

1830
00:53:27,309 --> 00:53:28,110
ah

1831
00:53:29,050 --> 00:53:30,230
Instead of going to college,

1832
00:53:30,929 --> 00:53:32,369
I bought all the textbooks and I

1833
00:53:32,369 --> 00:53:33,170
read them.

1834
00:53:33,639 --> 00:53:35,420
And that way, you know, if you

1835
00:53:35,420 --> 00:53:36,659
go to, if you go to school

1836
00:53:37,869 --> 00:53:39,670
and you learn, this is how you

1837
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:40,630
have to do it. Okay.

1838
00:53:41,369 --> 00:53:42,530
You're not allowed to think

1839
00:53:43,519 --> 00:53:44,579
that doesn't sound right.

1840
00:53:44,579 --> 00:53:45,380
That's wrong.

1841
00:53:45,889 --> 00:53:47,210
because if you do that,

1842
00:53:47,610 --> 00:53:48,789
you don't get a good enough

1843
00:53:48,789 --> 00:53:50,110
grade to get that piece of paper

1844
00:53:50,110 --> 00:53:51,769
that says, I'm smart and went to

1845
00:53:51,769 --> 00:53:52,570
college.

1846
00:53:54,159 --> 00:53:55,340
I have to tell you, and the way

1847
00:53:55,340 --> 00:53:56,260
you brought that up, I have to

1848
00:53:56,260 --> 00:53:57,219
tell you about an experience

1849
00:53:57,219 --> 00:53:58,920
that I had that really kind

1850
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:01,199
of put me over the edge in some

1851
00:54:01,199 --> 00:54:03,829
regards to modern education.

1852
00:54:06,349 --> 00:54:07,650
I only have an eighth grade

1853
00:54:07,650 --> 00:54:08,510
formal education,

1854
00:54:09,050 --> 00:54:10,489
and like you, I got a lot of

1855
00:54:10,489 --> 00:54:11,889
books, I had access to a really

1856
00:54:11,889 --> 00:54:12,690
great library.

1857
00:54:14,099 --> 00:54:15,139
And what really put me over the

1858
00:54:15,139 --> 00:54:18,079
edge is I bought or borrowed

1859
00:54:18,079 --> 00:54:18,880
a,

1860
00:54:19,690 --> 00:54:21,429
I forget, but it was, it was a

1861
00:54:21,429 --> 00:54:22,230
senior level

1862
00:54:22,420 --> 00:54:25,119
physics textbook that was used

1863
00:54:25,119 --> 00:54:26,480
to teach physics at the college

1864
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:27,280
level.

1865
00:54:27,739 --> 00:54:29,820
And I worked my way through that

1866
00:54:29,820 --> 00:54:30,620
book

1867
00:54:30,780 --> 00:54:31,940
very laboriously.

1868
00:54:32,059 --> 00:54:32,860
It was hard work.

1869
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:34,860
I had to study and read, and I

1870
00:54:34,860 --> 00:54:36,119
spent a lot of time with it.

1871
00:54:37,369 --> 00:54:39,030
And I got to the last page and

1872
00:54:39,030 --> 00:54:40,170
the last page says

1873
00:54:40,539 --> 00:54:41,940
something to the effect, I'm

1874
00:54:41,940 --> 00:54:42,940
paraphrasing it a bit, but

1875
00:54:42,940 --> 00:54:43,940
something to the effect of

1876
00:54:44,380 --> 00:54:45,800
we now understand

1877
00:54:46,780 --> 00:54:48,820
that everything we thought to be

1878
00:54:48,820 --> 00:54:50,159
true about physics, we now

1879
00:54:50,159 --> 00:54:51,239
understand is false.

1880
00:54:51,630 --> 00:54:52,909
And that everything you've just

1881
00:54:52,909 --> 00:54:53,829
learned in this book is

1882
00:54:53,829 --> 00:54:55,409
incorrect, but we don't know any

1883
00:54:55,409 --> 00:54:56,409
other way of teaching it.

1884
00:54:56,489 --> 00:54:57,469
So we're still teaching you the

1885
00:54:57,469 --> 00:54:58,269
incorrect way

1886
00:54:58,619 --> 00:55:01,440
that that book left a dent in

1887
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:02,860
the drywall in my bedroom.

1888
00:55:06,309 --> 00:55:08,829
Well, it's at least we were

1889
00:55:08,829 --> 00:55:09,650
honest about it.

1890
00:55:10,190 --> 00:55:11,110
Okay. Why?

1891
00:55:11,949 --> 00:55:13,929
I had experienced like that in

1892
00:55:13,929 --> 00:55:14,730
high school.

1893
00:55:15,550 --> 00:55:16,489
My, the first

1894
00:55:18,469 --> 00:55:20,650
chapter of our,

1895
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:22,840
biology book,

1896
00:55:23,179 --> 00:55:24,179
you know, it's talking about

1897
00:55:24,179 --> 00:55:25,539
grazing animals and browsing

1898
00:55:25,539 --> 00:55:26,900
animals and, you know,

1899
00:55:27,300 --> 00:55:29,119
deer and elk, they, they prefer

1900
00:55:29,119 --> 00:55:31,260
brushes and twigs where

1901
00:55:31,570 --> 00:55:33,769
cows prefer grasses and legumes.

1902
00:55:33,769 --> 00:55:34,570
And it's like,

1903
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:37,480
if that were true,

1904
00:55:37,809 --> 00:55:39,309
how can we see all these deer

1905
00:55:39,309 --> 00:55:41,260
down and people alfalfa fields?

1906
00:55:42,329 --> 00:55:43,429
Exactly. You know, why do you

1907
00:55:43,429 --> 00:55:45,750
see cows quit chasing grass and

1908
00:55:45,750 --> 00:55:47,050
go chasing those pine nuts and

1909
00:55:47,050 --> 00:55:47,850
acorns?

1910
00:55:48,639 --> 00:55:49,719
You know, and we get into this

1911
00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:51,539
discussion and, and wound up

1912
00:55:51,539 --> 00:55:52,980
taking the whole class and I

1913
00:55:52,980 --> 00:55:54,059
wound up, I got a D.

1914
00:55:54,940 --> 00:55:55,740
Um,

1915
00:55:56,500 --> 00:55:58,519
then we had general science and

1916
00:55:58,519 --> 00:55:59,800
the teacher goes through, and

1917
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:00,600
this was in the,

1918
00:56:01,150 --> 00:56:02,489
mind you, I graduated, this was

1919
00:56:02,489 --> 00:56:04,389
like 69 or 70

1920
00:56:05,050 --> 00:56:07,269
and before they found out about

1921
00:56:07,269 --> 00:56:08,289
quarks and particles,

1922
00:56:08,820 --> 00:56:09,620
but,

1923
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:12,280
They teach us macrophysics and

1924
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:14,079
infinity. It goes on forever.

1925
00:56:14,300 --> 00:56:15,179
And then they go into the

1926
00:56:15,179 --> 00:56:16,519
microphysics and they go, OK,

1927
00:56:16,539 --> 00:56:17,539
this is proton, neutron,

1928
00:56:17,639 --> 00:56:19,519
electron. And that's as small as

1929
00:56:19,519 --> 00:56:20,780
the things that there are.

1930
00:56:22,630 --> 00:56:24,010
My brain doesn't work that way.

1931
00:56:24,500 --> 00:56:25,300
You know, no,

1932
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:26,400
everything has parts.

1933
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:27,940
What's the parts of those?

1934
00:56:28,420 --> 00:56:30,219
And we get it. Again, I take the

1935
00:56:30,219 --> 00:56:32,239
whole day class and get a D

1936
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:34,159
because

1937
00:56:34,889 --> 00:56:37,130
it's I couldn't see that.

1938
00:56:37,250 --> 00:56:38,050
Well,

1939
00:56:38,170 --> 00:56:40,849
oh, in my 20s, I stumbled onto a

1940
00:56:40,849 --> 00:56:42,670
book called The Tao of Physics.

1941
00:56:44,170 --> 00:56:45,769
and they're talking about the

1942
00:56:45,769 --> 00:56:47,730
quarks and the particles and all

1943
00:56:47,730 --> 00:56:48,750
of this stuff.

1944
00:56:49,289 --> 00:56:50,929
But the odd thing about that

1945
00:56:50,929 --> 00:56:52,789
book is the way it's written.

1946
00:56:52,969 --> 00:56:54,829
And it is a hard read,

1947
00:56:56,110 --> 00:56:56,910
but

1948
00:56:57,539 --> 00:56:58,340
it's

1949
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:00,699
astrophysicists

1950
00:57:01,460 --> 00:57:03,079
that are looking at things

1951
00:57:03,079 --> 00:57:06,159
through electron microscopes and

1952
00:57:06,159 --> 00:57:07,559
relating what

1953
00:57:07,869 --> 00:57:09,849
they're seeing and the

1954
00:57:09,849 --> 00:57:11,210
descriptions these scientists

1955
00:57:11,210 --> 00:57:12,090
are giving about what they're

1956
00:57:12,090 --> 00:57:12,890
seeing

1957
00:57:13,090 --> 00:57:14,969
with Confucius and all these

1958
00:57:14,969 --> 00:57:16,610
different philosophers that

1959
00:57:17,449 --> 00:57:19,190
their descriptions of things

1960
00:57:19,190 --> 00:57:21,150
thousands of years ago, or just

1961
00:57:21,150 --> 00:57:22,030
what they're seeing in this,

1962
00:57:22,110 --> 00:57:23,269
that they spent, you

1963
00:57:23,679 --> 00:57:24,480
know,

1964
00:57:24,750 --> 00:57:26,829
billions, billions of dollars

1965
00:57:26,829 --> 00:57:27,630
trying

1966
00:57:27,909 --> 00:57:28,849
to figure this out.

1967
00:57:29,219 --> 00:57:30,800
And here's this old guy sitting

1968
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:32,400
up on the mountaintop 2 ,000, 3

1969
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:33,920
,000 years ago, already had it

1970
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:34,720
figured out.

1971
00:57:35,900 --> 00:57:37,219
We just don't know how it goes.

1972
00:57:37,340 --> 00:57:39,099
And I don't think we ever will

1973
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:41,780
ever will figure out exactly how

1974
00:57:41,780 --> 00:57:42,580
it goes.

1975
00:57:42,679 --> 00:57:43,480
But

1976
00:57:43,519 --> 00:57:45,139
knowing that all these, you

1977
00:57:45,139 --> 00:57:46,480
know, Roger Savory and Alan

1978
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:47,719
Savory, they talk about holes.

1979
00:57:48,869 --> 00:57:49,670
Well,

1980
00:57:49,889 --> 00:57:51,489
you've got the holes, but

1981
00:57:51,489 --> 00:57:52,750
there's holes within the holes

1982
00:57:52,750 --> 00:57:53,550
within the holes.

1983
00:57:55,409 --> 00:57:56,849
So, you know, we

1984
00:57:57,670 --> 00:58:00,050
and I don't know if how many

1985
00:58:00,050 --> 00:58:02,570
people are actually willing and

1986
00:58:02,570 --> 00:58:05,489
able to to look at it for you're

1987
00:58:05,489 --> 00:58:06,289
seeing

1988
00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:07,420
what you're doing with your

1989
00:58:07,420 --> 00:58:08,960
horses affecting this cows in

1990
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:10,579
this way, that's affecting this

1991
00:58:10,579 --> 00:58:12,199
grass in this way, which in turn

1992
00:58:12,199 --> 00:58:13,300
affects the

1993
00:58:14,340 --> 00:58:15,140
soil.

1994
00:58:15,050 --> 00:58:16,150
And the soil has

1995
00:58:16,519 --> 00:58:18,900
all of its components that were

1996
00:58:18,900 --> 00:58:20,639
it's it's all it's all

1997
00:58:20,639 --> 00:58:21,440
interconnected.

1998
00:58:22,260 --> 00:58:23,060
And

1999
00:58:23,940 --> 00:58:25,760
if we have these cows for

2000
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:27,340
they're going through and

2001
00:58:27,340 --> 00:58:28,719
keeping that connection right,

2002
00:58:29,340 --> 00:58:30,340
then we build grass.

2003
00:58:30,519 --> 00:58:31,679
We don't just build grass.

2004
00:58:31,719 --> 00:58:33,800
We're building diversity of life

2005
00:58:34,210 --> 00:58:35,630
on top of the ground and under

2006
00:58:35,630 --> 00:58:36,430
the ground.

2007
00:58:36,349 --> 00:58:38,250
If we do the opposite,

2008
00:58:38,889 --> 00:58:40,969
And we don't let them function

2009
00:58:40,969 --> 00:58:41,769
the way they should.

2010
00:58:41,730 --> 00:58:42,710
Well, then it goes the opposite

2011
00:58:42,710 --> 00:58:43,510
way.

2012
00:58:44,119 --> 00:58:45,820
But we don't need all of these

2013
00:58:45,820 --> 00:58:47,159
fences and stuff to get that

2014
00:58:47,159 --> 00:58:47,960
done.

2015
00:58:49,610 --> 00:58:50,410
Yeah.

2016
00:58:50,219 --> 00:58:51,260
So, Bob, we went down this

2017
00:58:51,260 --> 00:58:54,239
interesting rabbit trail, if you

2018
00:58:54,239 --> 00:58:55,039
will.

2019
00:58:54,780 --> 00:58:56,500
I interrupted you at one point

2020
00:58:56,500 --> 00:58:58,039
earlier. I was I started asking

2021
00:58:58,039 --> 00:58:58,840
you about

2022
00:58:58,900 --> 00:59:02,159
common mistakes or missteps that

2023
00:59:02,159 --> 00:59:04,000
people might make and the place.

2024
00:59:04,539 --> 00:59:06,159
Well, that's see, that's all

2025
00:59:06,159 --> 00:59:08,019
related because we get used to

2026
00:59:08,019 --> 00:59:08,920
doing this that way.

2027
00:59:09,699 --> 00:59:10,500
And

2028
00:59:12,210 --> 00:59:14,250
what they do is they go, oh, I

2029
00:59:14,250 --> 00:59:15,050
got this.

2030
00:59:15,179 --> 00:59:16,179
And they go to do it.

2031
00:59:16,239 --> 00:59:17,039
Well,

2032
00:59:18,559 --> 00:59:19,699
we're doing things

2033
00:59:20,110 --> 00:59:21,469
and we can be thinking we're

2034
00:59:21,469 --> 00:59:22,269
doing one thing

2035
00:59:23,159 --> 00:59:24,559
and we're not even close.

2036
00:59:26,420 --> 00:59:27,220
You

2037
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:29,239
can be doing something.

2038
00:59:29,420 --> 00:59:30,820
that's really a good thing

2039
00:59:31,300 --> 00:59:32,639
and not even know you're doing

2040
00:59:32,639 --> 00:59:33,440
it.

2041
00:59:33,409 --> 00:59:35,170
Or you don't have any idea of

2042
00:59:35,170 --> 00:59:35,970
how you're doing it.

2043
00:59:36,210 --> 00:59:37,010
I

2044
00:59:37,719 --> 00:59:39,460
had a guy that had me riding

2045
00:59:39,460 --> 00:59:40,800
this horse of his that was a

2046
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:42,219
bronc. He'd been bucking,

2047
00:59:42,639 --> 00:59:43,980
bucked his trainer off for 90

2048
00:59:43,980 --> 00:59:45,360
days. He got on it once and

2049
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:46,980
bucked him off and his wife

2050
00:59:46,980 --> 00:59:47,780
wouldn't let him ride it.

2051
00:59:47,820 --> 00:59:48,620
So I

2052
00:59:49,360 --> 00:59:50,260
go over to his place and I'm

2053
00:59:50,260 --> 00:59:51,360
riding, he comes in for lunch

2054
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:52,160
and he goes,

2055
00:59:52,280 --> 00:59:53,280
how are you two tracking that

2056
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:54,080
horse?

2057
00:59:55,099 --> 00:59:56,619
Well, when you're two tracking a

2058
00:59:56,619 --> 00:59:57,420
horse,

2059
00:59:57,400 --> 00:59:58,780
You've got got their shoulder

2060
00:59:58,780 --> 01:00:00,719
will be set one way and you're

2061
01:00:00,719 --> 01:00:01,920
leaving two sets of tracks going

2062
01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:03,280
down down to the arena.

2063
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:04,699
And I was doing that around the

2064
01:00:04,699 --> 01:00:05,500
corners.

2065
01:00:05,380 --> 01:00:06,719
And he goes, well, how are you

2066
01:00:06,719 --> 01:00:07,880
to track and help to get the

2067
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:09,099
horse to track and so fast?

2068
01:00:09,570 --> 01:00:10,670
And I go, what do you mean?

2069
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:14,800
He goes, well, to track.

2070
01:00:14,820 --> 01:00:15,620
And you were just doing it.

2071
01:00:15,679 --> 01:00:16,480
What do you mean?

2072
01:00:16,039 --> 01:00:17,300
You don't. I said, honestly, I

2073
01:00:17,300 --> 01:00:18,260
don't. And we got in a little

2074
01:00:18,260 --> 01:00:19,380
bit of an argument there.

2075
01:00:19,739 --> 01:00:21,119
And then finally he described

2076
01:00:21,119 --> 01:00:22,820
it. And oh, like this.

2077
01:00:23,300 --> 01:00:24,400
And I took him to the left.

2078
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:25,240
I took him to the right.

2079
01:00:25,159 --> 01:00:26,440
He goes, yeah. How do you do

2080
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:27,240
that?

2081
01:00:27,710 --> 01:00:29,610
I honestly didn't have a clue.

2082
01:00:32,039 --> 01:00:33,139
We all do that.

2083
01:00:33,599 --> 01:00:34,780
without realizing it.

2084
01:00:36,349 --> 01:00:37,889
And so when you're trying to

2085
01:00:37,889 --> 01:00:38,889
learn something new,

2086
01:00:39,780 --> 01:00:41,280
you've got to, you've got to

2087
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:42,860
really consciously do

2088
01:00:43,650 --> 01:00:45,670
it and, and go back and review

2089
01:00:45,670 --> 01:00:47,210
what you're doing.

2090
01:00:47,289 --> 01:00:48,289
You know, it's, I like getting

2091
01:00:48,289 --> 01:00:50,250
on places where we're okay.

2092
01:00:51,090 --> 01:00:52,570
Instead of one guy going out to

2093
01:00:52,570 --> 01:00:54,130
move the cows, like he can still

2094
01:00:54,130 --> 01:00:55,610
send out two guys to do it.

2095
01:00:56,110 --> 01:00:57,769
And, but one guy just sit there

2096
01:00:57,769 --> 01:00:58,570
and watch the other guy.

2097
01:00:58,610 --> 01:00:59,449
And when things start going

2098
01:00:59,449 --> 01:01:00,250
wrong,

2099
01:01:00,130 --> 01:01:01,489
the guy watching him

2100
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:03,280
can tell what he's doing wrong.

2101
01:01:04,530 --> 01:01:05,349
You got to be able to take that

2102
01:01:05,349 --> 01:01:06,329
critique back and forth.

2103
01:01:07,489 --> 01:01:08,969
Because we don't realize and

2104
01:01:08,969 --> 01:01:10,269
that's the biggest mistake we

2105
01:01:10,269 --> 01:01:11,289
make. And it's I don't know if

2106
01:01:11,289 --> 01:01:13,230
it's a mistake or just human

2107
01:01:13,230 --> 01:01:14,929
nature that we're doing things

2108
01:01:14,929 --> 01:01:15,730
that we don't

2109
01:01:16,309 --> 01:01:17,110
really

2110
01:01:17,130 --> 01:01:18,650
realize how we're doing it.

2111
01:01:20,329 --> 01:01:22,420
I've got a slightly different

2112
01:01:22,420 --> 01:01:23,220
question.

2113
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:24,500
You started we started this

2114
01:01:24,500 --> 01:01:25,860
conversation. you spoke about

2115
01:01:25,860 --> 01:01:28,539
observing sheep being bunched up

2116
01:01:28,539 --> 01:01:30,300
and goats being bunched up, but

2117
01:01:30,300 --> 01:01:31,639
the livestock being scattered

2118
01:01:31,639 --> 01:01:32,440
all over the place.

2119
01:01:32,380 --> 01:01:34,199
And now how in some management

2120
01:01:34,199 --> 01:01:35,539
contexts, all three of them are

2121
01:01:35,539 --> 01:01:36,340
scattered.

2122
01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:39,849
There've been a number of, not

2123
01:01:39,849 --> 01:01:40,730
many, but there've been some

2124
01:01:40,730 --> 01:01:41,969
operations that we've worked on

2125
01:01:41,969 --> 01:01:44,130
that had all three groups of

2126
01:01:44,780 --> 01:01:48,059
sheep, goats, and livestock

2127
01:01:48,059 --> 01:01:49,780
all merged and managing them as

2128
01:01:49,780 --> 01:01:51,239
one herd with fencing, of

2129
01:01:51,239 --> 01:01:52,039
course.

2130
01:01:53,269 --> 01:01:55,650
What does that look like in this

2131
01:01:55,650 --> 01:01:57,980
style of management?

2132
01:01:59,429 --> 01:02:01,980
Well, I had llamas and alpacas

2133
01:02:01,980 --> 01:02:03,079
going with cows for a little

2134
01:02:03,079 --> 01:02:03,960
while on the circle.

2135
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:09,719
Last summer,

2136
01:02:10,340 --> 01:02:11,320
I did kind of an experiment

2137
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,659
because rather than sitting

2138
01:02:13,659 --> 01:02:14,960
down, I'm realizing that these

2139
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:16,119
guys got to get more approaches.

2140
01:02:16,820 --> 01:02:17,800
Well, they had their heifers,

2141
01:02:17,860 --> 01:02:18,840
then they had some pears,

2142
01:02:19,340 --> 01:02:20,639
and then they had a pasture that

2143
01:02:20,639 --> 01:02:21,440
had

2144
01:02:22,190 --> 01:02:23,909
hair sheep, wool sheep, and

2145
01:02:23,909 --> 01:02:24,710
goats.

2146
01:02:25,980 --> 01:02:27,000
So we go out in the morning.

2147
01:02:27,139 --> 01:02:28,940
We, all we do is we just go out

2148
01:02:28,940 --> 01:02:29,740
and take those heifers,

2149
01:02:30,019 --> 01:02:31,059
pick them up and get them to

2150
01:02:31,059 --> 01:02:31,860
where they were grazing

2151
01:02:31,739 --> 01:02:33,519
together. Then we jump over and

2152
01:02:33,519 --> 01:02:34,679
we do the cows.

2153
01:02:35,099 --> 01:02:37,059
And then we go over and work on

2154
01:02:37,059 --> 01:02:39,039
the goats and or the small

2155
01:02:39,039 --> 01:02:39,840
ruminants.

2156
01:02:39,820 --> 01:02:41,099
Now, the first time we went into

2157
01:02:41,099 --> 01:02:42,559
the small ruminants, they had

2158
01:02:42,559 --> 01:02:43,360
them on about,

2159
01:02:44,199 --> 01:02:45,019
oh, I don't know, it was close

2160
01:02:45,019 --> 01:02:45,820
to half a section

2161
01:02:46,500 --> 01:02:47,880
and they were scattered.

2162
01:02:48,019 --> 01:02:49,380
They were literally scattered

2163
01:02:49,380 --> 01:02:51,280
out across that whole, whole

2164
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:52,080
pasture.

2165
01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:54,070
Guard dogs started boofing at us

2166
01:02:54,070 --> 01:02:55,489
and boy, they all go panic.

2167
01:02:55,590 --> 01:02:56,769
You know how they do panic and

2168
01:02:56,769 --> 01:02:57,630
running in together.

2169
01:02:59,639 --> 01:03:01,599
So I, I wrote down and I just

2170
01:03:02,300 --> 01:03:04,019
picked them up and kind of made

2171
01:03:04,019 --> 01:03:05,320
a little circle with them a

2172
01:03:05,320 --> 01:03:06,199
little bit. And then

2173
01:03:07,090 --> 01:03:08,869
I took them up and brought them

2174
01:03:08,869 --> 01:03:09,829
by where everybody's standing

2175
01:03:09,829 --> 01:03:10,889
there watching next to the

2176
01:03:10,889 --> 01:03:12,349
water. And I just said, I'm like

2177
01:03:12,349 --> 01:03:13,349
that. And we watched minutes.

2178
01:03:13,530 --> 01:03:14,330
So let's leave.

2179
01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:16,739
Well, the next day we went out

2180
01:03:16,739 --> 01:03:18,280
and instead

2181
01:03:18,909 --> 01:03:20,130
of being across that hole.

2182
01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:20,950
pasture,

2183
01:03:21,909 --> 01:03:23,670
they were taking up less than a

2184
01:03:23,670 --> 01:03:24,470
third.

2185
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,739
So I did kind of the same thing

2186
01:03:28,739 --> 01:03:30,360
again, the next day we moved

2187
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:31,160
them.

2188
01:03:31,469 --> 01:03:32,369
And then after that,

2189
01:03:33,309 --> 01:03:35,449
they were all taken up about

2190
01:03:35,449 --> 01:03:36,250
three

2191
01:03:36,619 --> 01:03:37,420
or four acres.

2192
01:03:40,429 --> 01:03:41,809
So you're actually getting your,

2193
01:03:41,889 --> 01:03:42,869
you're, you're getting your

2194
01:03:42,869 --> 01:03:44,929
impact better. They're grazing

2195
01:03:44,929 --> 01:03:46,590
for nutrition rather than just

2196
01:03:46,590 --> 01:03:47,590
blindly eating.

2197
01:03:47,730 --> 01:03:49,269
You know, uh, it's,

2198
01:03:51,070 --> 01:03:52,510
I don't know, do you ever stress

2199
01:03:52,510 --> 01:03:53,310
eat?

2200
01:03:54,219 --> 01:03:55,699
Yes, I have. Yeah.

2201
01:03:55,980 --> 01:03:58,340
I've got a real, I've got a real

2202
01:03:58,340 --> 01:03:59,719
bad habit about doing that.

2203
01:03:59,960 --> 01:04:00,760
And,

2204
01:04:01,510 --> 01:04:02,670
and that's the differences that

2205
01:04:02,670 --> 01:04:03,470
these,

2206
01:04:03,210 --> 01:04:04,630
these animals, when they're

2207
01:04:04,630 --> 01:04:05,430
going under,

2208
01:04:05,889 --> 01:04:07,150
even when you're putting them in

2209
01:04:07,150 --> 01:04:09,309
to smaller paddocks and moving

2210
01:04:09,309 --> 01:04:10,110
them daily,

2211
01:04:11,329 --> 01:04:12,849
they're stressed by the moves.

2212
01:04:14,050 --> 01:04:15,710
And I mean, if you're using the

2213
01:04:15,710 --> 01:04:17,070
low stress stockmanship, you

2214
01:04:17,070 --> 01:04:17,870
know, you're using a bud

2215
01:04:17,809 --> 01:04:19,409
Williams techniques, right.

2216
01:04:19,739 --> 01:04:21,119
It's lower stress,

2217
01:04:22,860 --> 01:04:23,660
but

2218
01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:26,630
it's still some stress.

2219
01:04:27,150 --> 01:04:29,010
You know, it's it's kind of a

2220
01:04:29,010 --> 01:04:30,469
unique deal. But when you switch

2221
01:04:30,469 --> 01:04:31,750
over to this and you don't do

2222
01:04:31,750 --> 01:04:33,090
anything, you don't get back

2223
01:04:33,090 --> 01:04:34,389
animals to move them.

2224
01:04:34,869 --> 01:04:35,969
You're approaching them from the

2225
01:04:35,969 --> 01:04:37,989
direction you want them to go.

2226
01:04:38,420 --> 01:04:39,800
And even if they're looking

2227
01:04:40,239 --> 01:04:41,820
the wrong way, they're pointing

2228
01:04:41,820 --> 01:04:43,340
the wrong way. You come in from

2229
01:04:43,340 --> 01:04:44,440
the direction you want them to

2230
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:45,240
go.

2231
01:04:45,150 --> 01:04:46,809
And all you have to do is you

2232
01:04:46,809 --> 01:04:48,070
angle the horse a little bit and

2233
01:04:48,070 --> 01:04:48,870
they'll

2234
01:04:48,769 --> 01:04:50,329
or you're you're moving.

2235
01:04:50,469 --> 01:04:51,289
And then when I turn around,

2236
01:04:51,349 --> 01:04:52,750
look at you, then you adjust for

2237
01:04:52,750 --> 01:04:54,550
that to where they will wrap

2238
01:04:54,550 --> 01:04:55,889
around and go by and go in the

2239
01:04:55,889 --> 01:04:56,690
direction you want.

2240
01:04:57,519 --> 01:04:58,769
You know, that's a lot.

2241
01:04:58,929 --> 01:04:59,730
That's like saying,

2242
01:05:00,239 --> 01:05:01,579
Okay, we've got a, you know,

2243
01:05:01,659 --> 01:05:02,739
we've got a barbecue down there.

2244
01:05:02,860 --> 01:05:05,179
We have got prime rib, rib

2245
01:05:05,179 --> 01:05:05,980
steaks,

2246
01:05:06,460 --> 01:05:08,820
you know, spare ribs, lobster,

2247
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:09,900
everything. You can imagine

2248
01:05:09,900 --> 01:05:11,219
anything you want to drink and

2249
01:05:11,219 --> 01:05:12,019
it's down there.

2250
01:05:12,039 --> 01:05:12,900
Now, if I come up to you and I

2251
01:05:12,900 --> 01:05:14,179
start pushing you in the face to

2252
01:05:14,179 --> 01:05:15,039
get you to turn around.

2253
01:05:17,309 --> 01:05:18,409
you're not going to want to turn

2254
01:05:18,409 --> 01:05:19,210
around.

2255
01:05:19,250 --> 01:05:20,530
You know, you might even throat

2256
01:05:20,530 --> 01:05:21,330
punch,

2257
01:05:21,699 --> 01:05:24,619
but if I come up from in backing

2258
01:05:24,619 --> 01:05:26,400
you turn and look and I, and I

2259
01:05:26,400 --> 01:05:27,200
go, Hey,

2260
01:05:27,380 --> 01:05:28,180
look down there.

2261
01:05:29,199 --> 01:05:30,139
And it's something that

2262
01:05:30,460 --> 01:05:31,500
you want to go do.

2263
01:05:31,619 --> 01:05:32,679
You're going to pick up and go

2264
01:05:32,679 --> 01:05:33,480
do it.

2265
01:05:33,730 --> 01:05:35,210
And that's the same type of a

2266
01:05:35,210 --> 01:05:36,750
psychology that you're using on

2267
01:05:36,750 --> 01:05:37,550
these animals

2268
01:05:38,599 --> 01:05:40,219
where you're not putting that

2269
01:05:41,429 --> 01:05:42,650
pressure on them to go.

2270
01:05:43,190 --> 01:05:43,990
You're just

2271
01:05:44,179 --> 01:05:45,780
showing them a good place to go.

2272
01:05:46,429 --> 01:05:47,230
Yeah.

2273
01:05:48,159 --> 01:05:49,579
Bob, this has been such a

2274
01:05:49,579 --> 01:05:50,739
fascinating conversation.

2275
01:05:50,980 --> 01:05:52,480
I've enjoyed myself immensely.

2276
01:05:53,039 --> 01:05:54,239
And I have the feeling that

2277
01:05:54,239 --> 01:05:56,440
we've, we've, we've made, we've

2278
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:58,500
made the proverbial, uh, pen

2279
01:05:58,500 --> 01:06:00,440
scratch or pin scratch in an

2280
01:06:00,440 --> 01:06:01,240
iceberg.

2281
01:06:01,639 --> 01:06:02,780
Um, I'm sure there's so many

2282
01:06:02,780 --> 01:06:03,820
other things that we could,

2283
01:06:04,289 --> 01:06:05,090
could talk about.

2284
01:06:05,110 --> 01:06:06,909
What are, what are major, are

2285
01:06:06,909 --> 01:06:08,289
there any important topics that

2286
01:06:08,289 --> 01:06:09,090
we've missed?

2287
01:06:10,980 --> 01:06:12,920
Oh, there's all sorts of topics

2288
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:13,739
that we missed.

2289
01:06:13,820 --> 01:06:16,059
You know, everything, everything

2290
01:06:16,059 --> 01:06:17,139
runs on frequencies.

2291
01:06:17,699 --> 01:06:21,159
We opened one entry of

2292
01:06:21,159 --> 01:06:21,960
the encyclopedia.

2293
01:06:22,570 --> 01:06:23,489
All right, everything runs in

2294
01:06:23,489 --> 01:06:24,289
frequencies.

2295
01:06:24,550 --> 01:06:26,789
Everything is held together by

2296
01:06:26,789 --> 01:06:27,590
what?

2297
01:06:28,460 --> 01:06:29,260
By atoms.

2298
01:06:30,039 --> 01:06:31,059
All your molecules are held

2299
01:06:31,059 --> 01:06:31,860
together by atoms.

2300
01:06:32,159 --> 01:06:33,000
What holds them together?

2301
01:06:33,219 --> 01:06:34,019
Electricity.

2302
01:06:36,829 --> 01:06:38,610
And electricity

2303
01:06:39,079 --> 01:06:40,570
has tons of different

2304
01:06:40,570 --> 01:06:41,630
frequencies. I mean,

2305
01:06:42,030 --> 01:06:43,250
just your internet's got one

2306
01:06:43,250 --> 01:06:44,670
frequency, your phone's got a

2307
01:06:44,670 --> 01:06:45,470
frequency,

2308
01:06:46,030 --> 01:06:47,289
your light bulb's got a

2309
01:06:47,289 --> 01:06:48,090
frequency.

2310
01:06:48,750 --> 01:06:50,130
and music. And I was talking

2311
01:06:50,130 --> 01:06:51,389
with Roger Savory on this the

2312
01:06:51,389 --> 01:06:52,989
other day. I cannot stand and

2313
01:06:52,989 --> 01:06:54,190
never have been able to stand

2314
01:06:54,980 --> 01:06:55,920
hard rock music.

2315
01:06:56,239 --> 01:06:57,829
It just grates me.

2316
01:06:59,340 --> 01:07:00,460
And then somebody sent me this,

2317
01:07:00,539 --> 01:07:01,599
Oh, you don't like rock music.

2318
01:07:01,679 --> 01:07:02,480
Listen to this.

2319
01:07:03,260 --> 01:07:04,519
And it was, and I thought, yeah,

2320
01:07:04,539 --> 01:07:06,400
right. Well, it was a band

2321
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:07,920
called Stephen, the Seagulls,

2322
01:07:09,409 --> 01:07:11,739
and they were doing AC, DC,

2323
01:07:12,039 --> 01:07:12,840
uh,

2324
01:07:12,900 --> 01:07:13,700
Thunderstruck.

2325
01:07:14,500 --> 01:07:16,559
And I have, I've never liked

2326
01:07:16,559 --> 01:07:17,639
that. It's just, it's just

2327
01:07:17,639 --> 01:07:18,860
something about it just gets my

2328
01:07:18,860 --> 01:07:19,660
nerves going,

2329
01:07:20,449 --> 01:07:21,670
but you listen to it

2330
01:07:22,139 --> 01:07:22,940
on

2331
01:07:22,940 --> 01:07:24,420
the acoustical side

2332
01:07:25,469 --> 01:07:27,030
and that is a good music.

2333
01:07:27,980 --> 01:07:29,179
Was it tuned to four 32?

2334
01:07:30,550 --> 01:07:32,150
I don't know what it was tuned

2335
01:07:32,150 --> 01:07:33,650
to, but it's the difference

2336
01:07:33,650 --> 01:07:35,769
between the electronic version

2337
01:07:35,769 --> 01:07:37,210
of the music and the acoustical

2338
01:07:37,210 --> 01:07:38,110
version of the music

2339
01:07:38,550 --> 01:07:39,350
is two

2340
01:07:39,980 --> 01:07:40,780
different things.

2341
01:07:41,510 --> 01:07:42,310
Yeah.

2342
01:07:42,690 --> 01:07:44,010
Yeah, there is that there is a

2343
01:07:44,010 --> 01:07:45,869
difference between analog music

2344
01:07:45,869 --> 01:07:47,010
and digital music and the

2345
01:07:47,010 --> 01:07:48,429
completeness of the waveforms

2346
01:07:48,429 --> 01:07:49,269
and the way they interact with

2347
01:07:49,269 --> 01:07:50,070
yourselves.

2348
01:07:50,090 --> 01:07:51,869
There are differences in tuning

2349
01:07:51,869 --> 01:07:53,889
and the frequencies and the

2350
01:07:53,889 --> 01:07:54,769
harmonics and the way they

2351
01:07:54,769 --> 01:07:55,570
interact.

2352
01:07:56,110 --> 01:07:56,910
Yeah, there's

2353
01:07:57,940 --> 01:07:58,740
it's

2354
01:07:58,980 --> 01:07:59,960
I've

2355
01:08:00,820 --> 01:08:03,099
sometimes daydreamed

2356
01:08:03,409 --> 01:08:06,250
about what would it be like

2357
01:08:07,489 --> 01:08:09,210
what how might our

2358
01:08:10,039 --> 01:08:11,820
life be different if we could

2359
01:08:11,820 --> 01:08:14,119
selectively chose to turn on or

2360
01:08:14,119 --> 01:08:16,239
off the ability to see some of

2361
01:08:16,239 --> 01:08:17,800
into the into the spectrum.

2362
01:08:18,819 --> 01:08:20,359
When you think about all the

2363
01:08:20,359 --> 01:08:21,340
ways that all these living

2364
01:08:21,340 --> 01:08:22,539
systems are communicating with

2365
01:08:22,539 --> 01:08:23,720
each other, the way trees

2366
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:25,079
communicate electromagnetically,

2367
01:08:25,199 --> 01:08:26,279
trees and plants, the way

2368
01:08:26,279 --> 01:08:27,439
livestock communicates

2369
01:08:27,750 --> 01:08:30,869
that the whole ecosystem is so

2370
01:08:30,869 --> 01:08:33,550
rich and vibrant with constant

2371
01:08:33,550 --> 01:08:34,369
communication in the

2372
01:08:34,369 --> 01:08:35,270
electromagnetic spectrum.

2373
01:08:35,880 --> 01:08:36,680
Of course, it would be

2374
01:08:36,399 --> 01:08:37,659
overwhelming if we were exposed

2375
01:08:37,659 --> 01:08:38,520
to all of it all the time.

2376
01:08:38,619 --> 01:08:40,260
We would be incapacitated.

2377
01:08:40,899 --> 01:08:42,579
But if we could just shift

2378
01:08:42,579 --> 01:08:45,100
spectrums and see into different

2379
01:08:45,100 --> 01:08:46,119
segments of the spectrum at

2380
01:08:46,119 --> 01:08:46,920
different times.

2381
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:48,360
Okay.

2382
01:08:51,060 --> 01:08:52,020
And this kind of goes back to

2383
01:08:52,020 --> 01:08:52,820
the murmurations.

2384
01:08:54,779 --> 01:08:55,579
We

2385
01:08:56,189 --> 01:08:57,949
animals communicate so much

2386
01:08:57,949 --> 01:08:58,989
better than we do.

2387
01:09:00,819 --> 01:09:01,920
I had a deal. I was on that

2388
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:02,720
talk.

2389
01:09:03,840 --> 01:09:04,920
Oh, I think they talked.

2390
01:09:04,949 --> 01:09:06,550
and we just don't, we, we don't,

2391
01:09:06,810 --> 01:09:08,829
we're not on the same frequency.

2392
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:10,320
Yeah.

2393
01:09:09,939 --> 01:09:10,739
Uh,

2394
01:09:11,199 --> 01:09:13,920
we had 1300 cows and it was on

2395
01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:14,720
the third.

2396
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:16,579
Again, it was that third day

2397
01:09:16,579 --> 01:09:17,380
deal

2398
01:09:17,619 --> 01:09:19,300
and they're going up

2399
01:09:19,989 --> 01:09:20,789
this

2400
01:09:20,829 --> 01:09:21,630
Ridge

2401
01:09:22,449 --> 01:09:23,550
and they

2402
01:09:24,340 --> 01:09:25,560
went by this cord grass.

2403
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:26,939
Well, cord grass grows six,

2404
01:09:27,020 --> 01:09:27,820
seven foot tall.

2405
01:09:28,020 --> 01:09:29,659
It's course the Indians used to

2406
01:09:29,659 --> 01:09:30,859
make baskets out of it.

2407
01:09:31,180 --> 01:09:33,399
The, the pioneers used to take

2408
01:09:33,399 --> 01:09:34,939
and braid it into logs for

2409
01:09:34,939 --> 01:09:35,739
firewood.

2410
01:09:36,020 --> 01:09:37,460
supposedly nothing eats it.

2411
01:09:39,109 --> 01:09:41,350
Well, it was just about the last

2412
01:09:41,350 --> 01:09:42,390
cow on

2413
01:09:43,350 --> 01:09:44,529
this 1300 head

2414
01:09:46,020 --> 01:09:47,300
decided, well, I'm going to go

2415
01:09:47,300 --> 01:09:48,159
over and try this.

2416
01:09:50,689 --> 01:09:51,789
And it just started heading down

2417
01:09:51,789 --> 01:09:52,590
that

2418
01:09:52,510 --> 01:09:54,970
1300 cows just turned around and

2419
01:09:54,970 --> 01:09:56,069
followed it down and just

2420
01:09:56,069 --> 01:09:57,109
started going,

2421
01:09:57,550 --> 01:09:58,689
going down one draw, turn

2422
01:09:58,689 --> 01:09:59,850
around, coming up another draw,

2423
01:09:59,970 --> 01:10:00,770
eating it.

2424
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:05,960
What is the communication going

2425
01:10:05,960 --> 01:10:07,279
on there that this

2426
01:10:07,689 --> 01:10:09,310
cow goes, hey, this is actually

2427
01:10:09,310 --> 01:10:10,170
pretty good stuff.

2428
01:10:10,329 --> 01:10:12,210
And everybody turns around and

2429
01:10:12,210 --> 01:10:13,510
goes to eat something that

2430
01:10:14,430 --> 01:10:16,149
that they've never eaten.

2431
01:10:16,859 --> 01:10:18,119
that everybody thinks they don't

2432
01:10:18,119 --> 01:10:18,920
eat.

2433
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:20,500
It turned out that

2434
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:23,800
the nutritional profile was

2435
01:10:23,800 --> 01:10:26,399
almost identical to to

2436
01:10:26,779 --> 01:10:27,579
Timothy.

2437
01:10:30,819 --> 01:10:32,340
And these cows just change and

2438
01:10:32,340 --> 01:10:33,140
they all communicate.

2439
01:10:33,239 --> 01:10:34,380
Oh, we've got to go down here

2440
01:10:34,380 --> 01:10:35,180
and eat this.

2441
01:10:36,100 --> 01:10:37,079
You know what the heck?

2442
01:10:37,260 --> 01:10:39,500
Because people don't people are

2443
01:10:39,500 --> 01:10:40,800
oblivious to

2444
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:42,680
things like that.

2445
01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:49,360
Wonderful, Bob.

2446
01:10:50,380 --> 01:10:51,460
Thank you very much for being

2447
01:10:51,460 --> 01:10:52,680
here. Thank you for sharing your

2448
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:53,480
wisdom.

2449
01:10:54,220 --> 01:10:56,199
And I'm sure you'll have lots of

2450
01:10:56,199 --> 01:10:57,279
conversations emerging from

2451
01:10:57,279 --> 01:10:58,699
this. Thank you for all the work

2452
01:10:58,699 --> 01:10:59,500
that you do and for all that

2453
01:10:59,500 --> 01:11:00,300
you're bringing to the world.

2454
01:11:00,479 --> 01:11:01,279
Oh,

2455
01:11:01,119 --> 01:11:02,279
just thanks for letting me do

2456
01:11:02,279 --> 01:11:03,079
it.

2457
01:11:06,100 --> 01:11:07,239
Oh, that was fun.

2458
01:11:07,649 --> 01:11:08,449
Thank you.

2459
01:11:08,569 --> 01:11:09,369
Thank you.