It’s a Watery World: The Chemistry of Pollution, Episode 2

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<v SPEAKER_07>This is Chain Reaction, a podcast from the American Chemical Society, where we link chemistry's past to its future.

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<v SPEAKER_07>I'm your host, Marg Wall, and I'm Sam Jones.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Sam, I've been working on my ukulele skills recently.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Can I play you part of a song?

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<v SPEAKER_07>Yes.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Okay, well not regale you with the whole song, but here's a bit of it.

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<v SPEAKER_06>Even now I can remember.

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<v SPEAKER_06>Goes smoking through my dreams.

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<v SPEAKER_06>Burn on Big River.

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<v SPEAKER_04>Margo, that was so good.

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<v SPEAKER_04>I love it.

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<v SPEAKER_04>I think you need to create a full version and release it as bonus content.

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<v SPEAKER_07>I don't know about that.

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<v SPEAKER_07>So that's a Randy Newman song from 1972 called Burn On.

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<v SPEAKER_07>And it was released three years after the Cuyahoga River, which weaves through Cleveland, caught fire.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Sparks from a railbridge likely ignited oil that floated on the surface of the river.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Just one of the many pollutants released by a booming industrial presence around the river.

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<v SPEAKER_07>A river on fire.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Not something that you'd expect to see.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Well, actually, this wasn't the first time that that happened.

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<v SPEAKER_07>It caught fire at least 12 times prior.

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<v SPEAKER_07>But it was the last time.

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<v SPEAKER_07>It was part of the impetus for the formation of the EPA and the passage of reforms to water pollution laws dubbed the Clean Water Act.

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<v SPEAKER_02>Whoever you are, wherever you live, water is the liquid of life.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Even so, we continue to pollute our waters, sometimes slowly and sometimes all at once.

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<v SPEAKER_03>In one of Sri Lanka's worst environmental disasters, the Express Pearl cargo ship caught fire and sank in May of 2021, spilling toxic chemicals and microplastics into the Indian Ocean.

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<v SPEAKER_03>The UN called it the largest plastic spill ever recorded.

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<v SPEAKER_04>I think I remember that story because I remember seeing images of the shores just covered with these little plastic pellets.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah, those are called nurdles.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Uh, something new I learned from our first interviewee.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Chris Reddy studies disasters like the Express Pearl and one you also might remember, Deep Water Horizon.

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<v SPEAKER_00>My name's Chris Reddy.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I'm a scientist at Woodsville Oceanographic Institution and uh chemical oceanographer.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I study what happens to pollutants when they get dumped into the ocean.

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<v SPEAKER_07>That seems like a pretty important thing for people to be studying.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Uh so how did you get into that?

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<v SPEAKER_00>I was funded for my PhD to study what happens if you build roads with recycled automobile tires to see whether from chemicals ran off the road that you built with tires.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And so I ended up collecting a lot of field samples after rainstorms.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And that's where I really, really enjoyed the idea that my laboratory shifted from overhead hoods and gas tanks to the beach and boats.

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<v SPEAKER_07>When did you start studying oil spills?

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<v SPEAKER_00>So my first oil spill was when I was working in graduate school.

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<v SPEAKER_00>As I was kind of looking to figure out how I was gonna, you know, button up my whole entire dissertation.

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<v SPEAKER_00>There was an oil spill that happened off the coast of Rhode Island.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It was a barge called the North Cape that ran aground near the beach and released oil, and that was it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>My first one, '96.

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<v SPEAKER_07>So then years later, you found yourself working on deep water horizon.

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<v SPEAKER_07>I had just graduated from college, I think, at the time.

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<v SPEAKER_07>And I remember seeing it on the news.

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<v SPEAKER_07>It was a really big oil spill.

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<v SPEAKER_07>It was a huge deal.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Um, so I'm curious to hear how you brought your chemistry background to understand that spill.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, so the Deep Road Horizon uh drilling rig exploded on April 20th, 2010, about 25 miles off the coast of Louisiana.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And eventually I was encouraged to join and help out at the request of some scientists with NOAA, the National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And after that, it was just off to the races, beaches, boats.

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<v SPEAKER_00>There was one day that I testified in Congress and hopped on a plane and was on a boat that that evening.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So I was pretty busy for about eight years.

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<v SPEAKER_07>What are the effects of such a big oil spill on the marine environment?

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<v SPEAKER_00>If you were watching CNN in the first two weeks of that spill, there were a lot of talking heads talking about that the Gulf was going to be dead for decades and a lot of over-the-top unsubstantiated comments.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Um, by no means am I being an apologist to the oil industry, but all of those statements were unfounded.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And, you know, the end result was that from a physical kind of a chemistry-biology perspective, the damages were relatively limited.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And there was about 160 million gallons released into the ocean over 87 days.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But, you know, it showed nature's resilience.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But oil spills are like buying a house.

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<v SPEAKER_00>A lot of it is just location, location, location.

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<v SPEAKER_00>All those Gulf states had multiple airports.

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<v SPEAKER_00>There was no shortage of hotels, cell phones, deep water ports.

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<v SPEAKER_00>That area provided an opportunity to bring in the brains and the bodies and the boats to respond and make that bad thing from getting worse.

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<v SPEAKER_07>How how do you like speaking of monitoring being pretty important and and knowing kind of what's going on, how are you monitoring an oil spill of that scale?

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<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So one of the challenges is that you can't put the ocean in an MRI.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's extremely difficult to study the ocean in part because it's hard to get out there.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's in part because boats only go, you know, 10 miles an hour.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's in part because it's a three-dimensional problem.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You have depth, you have time, and you have, you know, distance from shore, distance from any reference point.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So you do your best.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You can take individual samples and you can analyze them in the lab, or you can have some type of sensor on your boat that can be measuring real time, or you can use helicopter and overfly or satellites.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You know, the end result is you end up having to cobble together data sets or information from a variety of different platforms to tell a story.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You know, there are countless examples about the real world of environmental crises and, you know, TV shows like CSI, where they get the answer in two minutes, it's 99% certain and every base is covered.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Um, that doesn't happen when you put Mother Nature into the mix, especially something as sneaky as oil when it's on the environment.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Wait, you're saying everything on CSI isn't completely true?

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<v SPEAKER_07>Uh but when you're out there monitoring the spill and doing measurements, like what are you measuring specifically?

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<v SPEAKER_00>You know, oil is not one single compound.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's a it's a you know, it's this huge kind of buffet of different chemicals that all have different behaviors and some will evaporate faster than others, some will microbial degrade faster than others, some of them will want to sink to the bottom of the ocean floor, some may not.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And so I'm curious about every oil spill is okay, you've just inserted this uninvited guest, you've just inserted all these chemicals into the ocean.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Where are they gonna go?

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<v SPEAKER_00>And and what happens to them?

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<v SPEAKER_00>So that's what I do.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I often collect samples and trying to figure out how does the oil change with time.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Okay, so I'd imagine there are a huge range of tools that you use to answer the question of how oil changes with time.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Can you give me a couple examples, maybe the ones that you use the most?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Believe it or not, a lot of great science that we have done in my lab or supporting science is an iPhone.

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<v SPEAKER_00>The power of being able to take photos that would be called a georeference timestamp, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>So you can take a photo, it's telling you where you took it, what time you're taking it, and where you are facing, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>But of course, that doesn't provide the same level of resolution and content that you do with gas chromatographs, mass spectrometers, and a whole other assortment of instruments that allow us to, you know, investigate the oil and tell a story.

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<v SPEAKER_00>There is no one single instrument, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>You can't take a water sample that has oil in it and you know open up a box or put it in and get a full comprehensive analysis.

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<v SPEAKER_00>For example, on the Deepwater Horizon, I would say that the oil that spilled out of the bottom of the seafloor, I felt comfortable that we could understand and measure about 40% of the chemicals that were in the oil.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And the other 60 were so complex or so difficult to study or so small that we just did our best.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But it it's far from comprehensive.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But that doesn't mean that what we did with 35% or 40% wasn't some outstanding science that I'm super proud of.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Right.

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<v SPEAKER_07>So we've been talking about oil, but obviously there's a lot of other things that humans intentionally or not intentionally end up putting into our oceans.

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<v SPEAKER_07>So what are some of the other major pollutants?

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<v SPEAKER_00>You know, with kickstarting the industrial revolution, also kickstarted our capacity to synthesize chemicals that for the most part were were designed to be to do a good thing or to do a job.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And unfortunately, for a range of reasons, they often became a threat to the environment.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And, you know, whether we start off with PCBs, polychlorinated biphenols, which were first sold in 1929, uh DDT, the chlorinated pesticide that became more commonly used by the late 1940s.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And then you have the fluorinated compounds, and then also the kind of more Teflon compounds.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You know, they're more in the 60s and 70s, brominated flame retardants.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And of course, what's on the newspaper every day is plastics.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Right.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And, you know, that is um of great interest and concern amongst the environmental science community because plastics are part of our everyday lives.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And unfortunately, like it or not, that comes with a lot of pollution.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_07>So you started out working with oil spills, but at some point you moved into studying plastic spills.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Um so what's a memorable plastic spill that you worked on?

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<v SPEAKER_00>In May of 2021, there was a cargo vessel called the Express Pearl that was leaking nitric acid and was having a problem and was calling around for help.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And the Sri Lankans, uh, you know, this island nation off the coast of India, welcomed the ship to come in and try to get things under control.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And unfortunately, the Express Pearl caught on fire.

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<v SPEAKER_00>This was a container ship that was carrying a range of different chemicals, but also many, many cargo containers of small little pieces of plastic about the size of a corn kernel.

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<v SPEAKER_00>They're called uh nurles or pre-production pellets.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And that's kind of the raw material plastic that you would buy if you were gonna make a plastic bottle.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And unfortunately, uh a lot of those pieces of plastic that were on these containers were released, and upwards of three-quarters of the Sri Lankan coastline had these pellets on them.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And uh one of my contacts, Asha DeVoe, and she was a conservationalist in Sri Lanka, she kind of mentioned to me that all these different pieces of plastic were coming ashore when she walked her dog and uh sent me a picture, and I noticed that some of the pieces of plastic were burnt.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And I said, you know, I'm in Cape Cod, Massachusetts.

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<v SPEAKER_00>I said, collect a big bag of that and I'll find a way to get shipped back to my lab.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Pays to have connections across the world.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Oh yeah, sure.

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<v SPEAKER_07>So what did you learn from those samples?

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<v SPEAKER_00>We found in the early days of this event that the pellets, unburnt pellets, are pretty uniform, you know, uh, but when you burnt them, they took on a whole wide range of sizes.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And then when you analyze them pound for pound in terms of toxicity or loading of particular toxic compounds, the burnt pieces of plastic were thousands of times, thousands of times more toxic.

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<v SPEAKER_00>So we have a lot of interest in what happens to plastic when it spills in a kind of an acute way.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Because for the most part, plastic pollution is kind of a leaky faucet, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>You know, drip here, drop there, drip there, drip there.

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<v SPEAKER_00>One of the challenges for um scientists to understand what happens to plastic in the environment is we have no clock and we have no map.

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<v SPEAKER_00>We don't know where it was put in and we don't know how long it's been there.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But these spills are interesting and valuable, unfortunate, because we know when the plastic was released, we know where it was, and and for the most part, we actually know what it was right at the very beginning.

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<v SPEAKER_00>When we have a spill of a ship that we know is at this dock, and we know that the accident happened at 11 o'clock in the morning.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Now we have an opportunity to study these spills and figure out how fast does nature break down or not break down uh pieces of plastic when it gets put into the environment.

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<v SPEAKER_07>It's kind of exciting.

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<v SPEAKER_07>It's awful, it's bad, but it's exciting from the scientific point of view that like you're like, oh I have I have this data set.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>One of my colleagues says, you know what, Chris, you know what you are?

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<v SPEAKER_00>You're like an ambulance chaser.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's like I was kind of insulted, but I wouldn't say that I'm an ambulance chaser, but I am chasing for science in in opportune times.

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<v SPEAKER_06>Right, right, right.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And yeah, there's no doubt there it is kind of a buzz, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>You know, it's a big dopamine rush, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's kind of fun in a weird way when suddenly everybody cares what you have to say, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>And so you're toiling away in your lab for years and years and you're writing a paper here and there, and suddenly some people out of the out of the woodwork want to talk to you.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Suddenly they think you're pretty.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It also gives you a chance to, you know, help out in in a way that you know makes you feel good about your science, um, is good for science and just good for all around.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And so it's a good thing.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>In the face of bad thing.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Sorry.

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<v SPEAKER_07>Um When I think of plastic, I think of like the great plastic garbage patch that lives in the Pacific Ocean.

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<v SPEAKER_07>And those are like big plastics you can see, but obviously that's not all that's in the ocean.

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<v SPEAKER_07>There's microplastics.

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<v SPEAKER_07>How is that affecting our oceans?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah, there's a lot of plastic in the ocean, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>And you'll hear this all the time when you know the ocean is 70% of the earth's surface.

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<v SPEAKER_00>It's very little studied because it's just tricky.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And so we know this plastic in certain areas, often highly accumulated in the kind of these middle of the ocean, where it kind of gets entrained.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And if you look, you can find it on the bottom of the seafloor, you can find the beach.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But we are far, far, far from having a complete understanding, kind of like balancing the checkbook about how much plastic goes into the ocean every year, where it all is kind of on a relative basis, and where it's going.

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<v SPEAKER_00>You're saying we don't know yet.

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<v SPEAKER_00>We don't know.

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<v SPEAKER_00>But you know, here's the rub.

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<v SPEAKER_00>We don't know in some circles means that we don't know and that we're uninformed, whereas we don't know in science means that we know enough to know that we're not we don't know, right?

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<v SPEAKER_00>Yeah.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And that we're working on it.

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<v SPEAKER_00>Science is not a house of cards, it is this beautiful big Jigsaw puzzle.

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<v SPEAKER_00>And when science works and works nicely, you know, we're putting a piece into this puzzle and we're making a prettier, more clearer, more high-resolved image.

00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:44.879
<v SPEAKER_07>What's your hope for the future of the ocean and how do you think that chemistry is going to help play a role in that?

00:16:45.759 --> 00:16:59.840
<v SPEAKER_00>I think that to me, what I find the most exciting is trying to figure out how do you make a product that when it hits into the environment for whatever reason that it breaks down fast.

00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:01.600
<v SPEAKER_00>We don't want any plastic pollution.

00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:09.920
<v SPEAKER_00>But like it or not, when we use plastics in our everyday life, some fraction of it is gonna get into the environment and some fraction of that is gonna go into the ocean.

00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:14.559
<v SPEAKER_00>Can we design them so that they don't persist for a long time?

00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.200
<v SPEAKER_00>And that's where good chemistry is coming involved, right?

00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:19.119
<v SPEAKER_00>Now, let's all be clear here.

00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:24.319
<v SPEAKER_00>Maybe some plastic bag would have lasted 50 years in the environment.

00:17:24.400 --> 00:17:28.240
<v SPEAKER_00>And chemical engineering can get it down to 50 weeks.

00:17:28.880 --> 00:17:34.160
<v SPEAKER_00>But that still means that you have a floating piece of plastic that's around for 50 weeks, right?

00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.799
<v SPEAKER_00>So even good design is still not a ticket to pollute.

00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:38.960
<v unknown>Right.

00:17:39.359 --> 00:17:40.960
<v SPEAKER_00>We're just trying to limit the damages.

00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:43.119
<v SPEAKER_00>We live in one ocean, right?

00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:44.400
<v SPEAKER_00>They're all connected, right?

00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:46.480
<v SPEAKER_00>So it's not the oceans as one ocean.

00:17:46.880 --> 00:18:01.119
<v SPEAKER_00>The health of the ocean and our capacity to rely on the ocean is just part of our lives, whether it's food, tourism, travel, energy, you know, the ocean is just is a player in our lives.

00:18:01.279 --> 00:18:02.720
<v SPEAKER_00>It is not a pawn.

00:18:03.039 --> 00:18:09.599
<v SPEAKER_00>And you know, we want to strive to have healthy, flourishing systems because that the it benefits all.

00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:21.359
<v SPEAKER_04>Flourishing systems.

00:18:21.599 --> 00:18:22.480
<v SPEAKER_04>That's the dream.

00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:23.039
<v SPEAKER_04>Yeah.

00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:31.440
<v SPEAKER_04>And yeah, like Chris said, the ocean and of course other bodies of water are so crucial to our well-being and the well-being of aquatic species.

00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:41.279
<v SPEAKER_04>Especially when you think of direct exposure to pollutants in water that get taken up by those species that we then eat, and therefore they make it into us.

00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:42.799
<v SPEAKER_07>Yes, true.

00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:48.640
<v SPEAKER_07>But of course, the most direct way we get exposure to water pollutants is by drinking it.

00:18:48.880 --> 00:18:55.519
<v SPEAKER_04>You know, I've had the luxury of rarely spending time thinking about the process that water goes through before making it into our taps.

00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:01.039
<v SPEAKER_07>Well then, I guess you haven't watched the 1951 educational film Pipeline to the Clouds.

00:19:01.200 --> 00:19:02.160
<v SPEAKER_07>How'd you know?

00:19:02.960 --> 00:19:05.680
<v SPEAKER_07>A joint production by General Electric, the U.S.

00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:09.599
<v SPEAKER_07>Public Health Service, and the American Waterworks Association.

00:19:09.920 --> 00:19:14.559
<v SPEAKER_02>In all nature, there is no such thing as really pure water.

00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:18.640
<v SPEAKER_02>Even rain collects particles and gases as it comes down.

00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:28.559
<v SPEAKER_02>No matter what it wants held, by the time it gets into our homes, it must be free from harmful impurities.

00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:33.759
<v SPEAKER_02>It must measure up to federal, state, and local standards.

00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:46.880
<v SPEAKER_02>Different types of contaminations go for different treatment methods, which include flocculation, clarification, filtration, disinfection.

00:19:47.680 --> 00:19:49.279
<v SPEAKER_02>What does this mean?

00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:54.079
<v SPEAKER_02>It means a better, safer drink of water for you.

00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:56.400
<v SPEAKER_07>But here's the thing, Sam.

00:19:56.720 --> 00:20:03.519
<v SPEAKER_07>There are chemicals that still get through the water filtration systems, even the ones of today.

00:20:03.839 --> 00:20:10.240
<v SPEAKER_07>Our next guest is Carrie McDonough, an associate professor of chemistry at Carnegie Mellon University.

00:20:10.480 --> 00:20:14.559
<v SPEAKER_07>She studies harmful chemicals like PFAS, which you've probably heard of.

00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:15.359
<v SPEAKER_07>Of course.

00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:22.319
<v SPEAKER_07>And I'm talking about per and polyfloral alkyl substances, aka forever chemicals.

00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:29.759
<v SPEAKER_07>But first, I asked Carrie generally what are the kinds of organic pollutants that you might find in water?

00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:34.720
<v SPEAKER_07>So it kind of depends what we mean by water.

00:20:36.400 --> 00:20:38.160
<v SPEAKER_05>There's a lot of different water.

00:20:38.319 --> 00:20:45.359
<v SPEAKER_05>If you're thinking about wastewater, wastewater is gonna have everything that was used, everything that went down the drain.

00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:50.480
<v SPEAKER_05>So pharmaceuticals, personal care products, chemicals from your shampoo and your soap.

00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:52.960
<v SPEAKER_05>What about drinking water?

00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:56.319
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah, so drinking water is gonna be different.

00:20:56.799 --> 00:20:57.359
<v SPEAKER_05>Hopefully.

00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:03.359
<v SPEAKER_05>So that that wastewater is kind of one of the major sources of contamination.

00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:07.920
<v SPEAKER_05>But then when you get to drinking water, you're gonna have more of the things that can stick around.

00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:26.559
<v SPEAKER_05>Generally, things that are referred to as PMT, so persistent mobile toxic chemicals, are what we would be really concerned about in drinking water because they don't break down their mobile in the water stream because they're soluble and they have some toxicity associated with them.

00:21:26.880 --> 00:21:33.440
<v SPEAKER_05>And PFASs, which I study, are very representative persistent mobile toxic content.

00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:39.440
<v SPEAKER_07>And what's the difference between PFOA and PFAS and all the PS?

00:21:39.920 --> 00:21:42.559
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah, so it can get pretty confusing.

00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:47.200
<v SPEAKER_05>So PFASes really just means anything with carbon and chlorine.

00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:49.759
<v SPEAKER_05>There are thousands of PFASes.

00:21:50.160 --> 00:21:53.039
<v SPEAKER_05>PFOA and PFOS are the ones you hear about the most.

00:21:53.119 --> 00:21:59.839
<v SPEAKER_05>They're the most well studied, and they have to be mostly produced in the United States.

00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.599
<v SPEAKER_05>Dates in the early 2000, 2010s.

00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:05.039
<v SPEAKER_07>All right.

00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:06.240
<v SPEAKER_07>Now I'm starting to get it.

00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:06.720
<v SPEAKER_07>Okay.

00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:11.440
<v SPEAKER_07>So PFACs at the top of this hierarchy can mean a bunch of different things.

00:22:11.759 --> 00:22:13.680
<v SPEAKER_07>And where are they coming from?

00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.960
<v SPEAKER_05>So PFACs are coming from a lot of things.

00:22:17.119 --> 00:22:20.319
<v SPEAKER_05>Chemists love putting fluorine on things for all sorts of reasons.

00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:21.599
<v SPEAKER_05>Like it is really useful.

00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:22.640
<v SPEAKER_05>Why is that?

00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:24.960
<v SPEAKER_05>Super low polarizability.

00:22:25.119 --> 00:22:27.599
<v SPEAKER_05>So they don't have a high affinity for like anything.

00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:28.880
<v SPEAKER_05>They don't like anything.

00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:36.960
<v SPEAKER_05>So if you want to make something that is oil repellent and water repellent, that's something that you can do with PFASes.

00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.359
<v SPEAKER_05>So that makes them really useful for things like consumer products.

00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:42.720
<v SPEAKER_05>They're also super stable.

00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:44.000
<v SPEAKER_05>Like they don't break down.

00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:45.839
<v SPEAKER_05>That's why they call them forever chemicals.

00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:47.599
<v SPEAKER_05>So they're very stable in products.

00:22:47.759 --> 00:22:50.640
<v SPEAKER_05>Things like food wrappers to be grease repellent.

00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:53.680
<v SPEAKER_05>Microwave popcorn bags are a big one.

00:22:53.920 --> 00:22:58.319
<v SPEAKER_05>Exercise clothes, things that you want to like wick sweat, that kind of thing.

00:22:58.720 --> 00:22:59.519
<v SPEAKER_05>Cosmetics.

00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:01.759
<v SPEAKER_05>So consumer products are a big source.

00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:05.839
<v SPEAKER_05>And then also industrial products are going to be a big source to the larger environment.

00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:09.440
<v SPEAKER_05>Clean energy, a lot of those kinds of industries.

00:23:09.599 --> 00:23:12.640
<v SPEAKER_05>Lithium-ion batteries, the electrolytes that they use in those.

00:23:13.039 --> 00:23:13.200
<v SPEAKER_05>Wow.

00:23:13.279 --> 00:23:15.119
<v SPEAKER_05>So it's like everywhere.

00:23:15.440 --> 00:23:15.680
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah.

00:23:15.920 --> 00:23:16.160
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah.

00:23:16.319 --> 00:23:21.279
<v SPEAKER_05>One of the biggest ones and one of the ones we study a lot is aqueous film forming foams.

00:23:21.599 --> 00:23:24.559
<v SPEAKER_05>So those actually contain hundreds of BFASes.

00:23:24.960 --> 00:23:30.319
<v SPEAKER_07>Is that when there's a fire and you break it out and then you shh- Yeah, fire extinguisher.

00:23:30.559 --> 00:23:31.200
<v SPEAKER_07>Fire extinguisher.

00:23:31.359 --> 00:23:31.680
<v SPEAKER_07>There it is.

00:23:31.839 --> 00:23:31.920
<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

00:23:32.000 --> 00:23:33.920
<v SPEAKER_05>So it's not the stuff that's in the fire extinguisher.

00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:38.720
<v SPEAKER_05>It's actually like specialized materials that are used for things like fuel fires.

00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:39.279
<v SPEAKER_05>Oh.

00:23:39.680 --> 00:23:48.720
<v SPEAKER_05>So because the PFASes can form a film really easily, they'll actually starve the fire without having to use water, which you don't want to use for a fuel fire.

00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:49.039
<v SPEAKER_05>Right.

00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.680
<v SPEAKER_05>So you can actually just starve it of oxygen.

00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:59.519
<v SPEAKER_05>So firefighters might use these for something like a train wreck, those kinds of fires where there's fuel involved.

00:23:59.759 --> 00:24:03.279
<v SPEAKER_05>They also keep them on things like naval ships.

00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:09.680
<v SPEAKER_05>Any Air Force base or airport is going to have these in on hand for emergency response.

00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:14.160
<v SPEAKER_05>Um, there's been issues with them leaching out of storage sites.

00:24:14.319 --> 00:24:17.119
<v SPEAKER_05>And then also, of course, like the actual emergency response.

00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:19.839
<v SPEAKER_05>If you need them, you're not gonna worry about the contamination.

00:24:20.000 --> 00:24:24.480
<v SPEAKER_05>You can worry about stopping the fire if so just be a lot of them sprayed around.

00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:33.519
<v SPEAKER_05>And at this point, it's it's pretty clear that this is one of the primary sources of PFAS to our groundwater and our water resources.

00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:34.160
<v SPEAKER_07>I see.

00:24:34.400 --> 00:24:39.039
<v SPEAKER_07>So what happens when we consume PFAS polluted water?

00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:44.079
<v SPEAKER_07>You know, like they're forever chemicals, they stick around, but do they stick around in our bodies?

00:24:44.319 --> 00:24:57.920
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah, so they certainly unfortunately do, and they do so in kind of a funky way that's different than a lot of legacy pollutants that we've studied before because they look a lot like a fluorinated fatty acid, basically.

00:24:58.079 --> 00:25:01.200
<v SPEAKER_05>And fluorine isn't that different in size than hydrogen.

00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:07.519
<v SPEAKER_05>So it if something's gonna bind to a fatty acid, it's probably gonna bind to a similar PFAS.

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:14.400
<v SPEAKER_05>So they like things like transporter proteins, they'll actually bind to serum albumin in the blood.

00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:15.599
<v SPEAKER_05>Oh, yeah.

00:25:15.759 --> 00:25:26.319
<v SPEAKER_05>So if you're drinking the contaminated water every day, you would have a slow buildup of these compounds in your blood and then also partitioning to other tissues in your body.

00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:31.599
<v SPEAKER_07>Okay, so uh what happens, you know, when this is bioaccumulating?

00:25:31.759 --> 00:25:32.880
<v SPEAKER_07>Is it bad?

00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:38.720
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah, so I think especially when you think about, you know, you might be drinking really, really low levels.

00:25:38.880 --> 00:25:47.279
<v SPEAKER_05>So a one-time exposure might not be so bad, but the half-lives of these compounds in your body is pretty long.

00:25:47.599 --> 00:25:52.559
<v SPEAKER_05>So it's on the order of a few to several years that these things stick around in your body.

00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:57.200
<v SPEAKER_05>So you can kind of imagine that then if you're drinking that water every day, it's gonna build up in your body.

00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:03.200
<v SPEAKER_05>And as it builds up, it's going to be able to cause more and more toxic effects.

00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:06.319
<v SPEAKER_05>Things like your risk of chronic illness long term.

00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:11.359
<v SPEAKER_05>So it's not something that's easy to see rapidly, the cause and effect.

00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.200
<v SPEAKER_05>Um, it's something that is is much more complex than that.

00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:24.799
<v SPEAKER_05>And both PFOS and PFOA are associated with carcinogenicity, so different kinds of cancer, kidney cancer, testicular cancer.

00:26:25.039 --> 00:26:30.319
<v SPEAKER_05>I think the maximum contaminant level goals from the EPA for both of those compounds are zero.

00:26:30.559 --> 00:26:30.799
<v SPEAKER_05>Wow.

00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:35.279
<v SPEAKER_05>Um, which basically means there's no safe level of PFOA or PFOS.

00:26:35.440 --> 00:26:45.119
<v SPEAKER_05>Uh, there are studies showing that they can impact immunoresponse, uh, endocrine disruption, different metabolism rates, things like that in your body.

00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:52.480
<v SPEAKER_05>There's a lot of complex different effects that they have that are kind of established to different levels of certainty.

00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:55.680
<v SPEAKER_05>And it's something that unfortunately we're still learning.

00:26:56.160 --> 00:27:04.960
<v SPEAKER_05>And those two compounds I mentioned, the PFOA and PFOS, most of the information that I'm describing right now is about those two compounds.

00:27:05.039 --> 00:27:10.880
<v SPEAKER_05>So the thousands of other PFASs, for the most part, we don't have a lot of toxicological information at all.

00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:19.039
<v SPEAKER_05>And the industry has moved actually more towards shorter chain PFASes, so a smaller number of carbons on the molecules.

00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:23.839
<v SPEAKER_05>It's actually more soluble, probably easier for it to get transported around in the water.

00:27:24.559 --> 00:27:27.680
<v SPEAKER_05>But it also has a lower affinity for those proteins.

00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:33.359
<v SPEAKER_05>So it should stick around in your body for less time, which is kind of the reasoning behind moving to those.

00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:41.839
<v SPEAKER_07>So the US geological survey found that almost half of the TAPs in the US were contaminated with at least one PFAS.

00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:43.920
<v SPEAKER_07>And that was in 2023.

00:27:44.240 --> 00:27:46.640
<v SPEAKER_07>Do you think that's an underestimate, an overestimate?

00:27:46.799 --> 00:27:49.599
<v SPEAKER_07>And when you say more than one, what does that mean?

00:27:49.920 --> 00:27:51.839
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah, that's a great question.

00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:58.799
<v SPEAKER_05>Um, the USGS estimate of at least 45% of all water.

00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:06.240
<v SPEAKER_05>I mean, they said at least because it's a minimum, but it's definitely it's definitely an underestimate that at least is doing a lot of work.

00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:13.440
<v SPEAKER_05>Generally, when you're thinking about a currents of chemicals like this, it's all gonna depend whether it's there or not, is whether it's detected or not, right?

00:28:13.519 --> 00:28:16.640
<v SPEAKER_05>So it depends on the detection limits of the compound.

00:28:16.880 --> 00:28:20.799
<v SPEAKER_05>Like how far down can I see with whatever method I'm using?

00:28:21.119 --> 00:28:26.880
<v SPEAKER_05>So not detecting doesn't necessarily mean nothing was there at a level that was of concern.

00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.000
<v SPEAKER_05>It just means it's what they were able to learn at the time.

00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:30.480
<v SPEAKER_07>I see.

00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:33.200
<v SPEAKER_05>So I would say definitely there's a higher percentage.

00:28:33.519 --> 00:28:33.839
<v SPEAKER_07>Okay.

00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:41.359
<v SPEAKER_07>So what's being done to help remove PFAS from our drinking water, if if anything?

00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:50.000
<v SPEAKER_05>So there are some traditional drinking water treatment techniques that work to some extent on PFASes and on their removal.

00:28:50.400 --> 00:28:59.200
<v SPEAKER_05>Um, so granular activated carbon for some of these larger molecules like the PFOA and PFOS can work.

00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:04.160
<v SPEAKER_05>But I mentioned those have been regulated, so they're not used as much anymore.

00:29:04.720 --> 00:29:13.039
<v SPEAKER_05>Um things like reverse osmosis can be a little bit more effective, but not super applicable to like a large scale treatment for a lot of people.

00:29:13.119 --> 00:29:14.480
<v SPEAKER_05>It's more like an under-sync.

00:29:14.559 --> 00:29:14.799
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah.

00:29:15.039 --> 00:29:15.839
<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:29:16.160 --> 00:29:17.599
<v SPEAKER_05>That's what we use at my house.

00:29:17.759 --> 00:29:18.400
<v SPEAKER_05>Ah, okay.

00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:24.799
<v SPEAKER_05>Um, I think on the larger scale, though, a lot of work is going into just how do we really destroy them.

00:29:25.599 --> 00:29:34.319
<v SPEAKER_05>And I think that's a really important point because if you're using something like granular activated carbon, you're absorbing them, but they're still forever chemicals.

00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:35.759
<v SPEAKER_05>So you now have to do something.

00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:37.119
<v SPEAKER_05>It has to go somewhere.

00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:39.839
<v SPEAKER_05>Um sometimes they're incinerated.

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.799
<v SPEAKER_05>That has been found to also make volatile PFASes.

00:29:43.039 --> 00:29:44.640
<v SPEAKER_05>So you get other byproducts.

00:29:44.799 --> 00:29:48.480
<v SPEAKER_05>These destructive techniques are being more and more developed.

00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:51.119
<v SPEAKER_05>Most of them are pretty high energy.

00:29:51.359 --> 00:29:53.920
<v SPEAKER_05>No natural process is gonna break these down.

00:29:54.079 --> 00:29:55.680
<v SPEAKER_05>I think we can do it.

00:29:55.920 --> 00:30:00.559
<v SPEAKER_05>I think unfortunately, it's gonna be expensive to do that for everyone.

00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:05.119
<v SPEAKER_05>So it's gonna have to be pushed along by regulation.

00:30:05.279 --> 00:30:13.440
<v SPEAKER_05>Like right now, we're regulating two out of these thousands of chemicals that have maximum contaminant levels that are not enforced yet.

00:30:13.519 --> 00:30:15.119
<v SPEAKER_05>Uh it was gonna be 2029.

00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:17.519
<v SPEAKER_05>They recently pushed back at 2031.

00:30:17.839 --> 00:30:20.160
<v SPEAKER_05>Until then, just like Yeah, until then.

00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:23.680
<v SPEAKER_05>I mean, there's definitely like communities that are finding contamination.

00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:28.559
<v SPEAKER_05>If there's enough uproar, there will be treatment solutions before then.

00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:32.640
<v SPEAKER_05>Um, often the treatment that they use now is dilution.

00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.279
<v SPEAKER_05>So bring in other water sources, dilute it out.

00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:39.920
<v SPEAKER_05>Ah, but again, not a sustainable solution, especially with water scarcity issues.

00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:52.799
<v SPEAKER_05>What we really need to do is we need regulations to say, okay, we can't have PFASes in our water, meaning the whole class, the whole class of PFASes, things that are organic fluorines that aren't gonna break down in the environment.

00:30:53.119 --> 00:30:54.079
<v SPEAKER_07>Or in our bodies.

00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:54.559
<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

00:30:54.880 --> 00:30:55.200
<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

00:30:55.440 --> 00:31:00.079
<v SPEAKER_07>Um how do you actually measure PFASes in the water?

00:31:00.240 --> 00:31:03.359
<v SPEAKER_07>How do you know how much is in there, what types are in there?

00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:10.319
<v SPEAKER_05>So PFAS were originally discovered in late 60s and 70s.

00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:12.880
<v SPEAKER_05>And this wasn't like a dentistry department.

00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:15.839
<v SPEAKER_05>Uh, they're doing research on fluoride and drinking water.

00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:22.960
<v SPEAKER_05>They were looking at blood, and they found that there was like a fraction uh fluoride that only came out after burning.

00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.559
<v SPEAKER_05>They hypothesized, okay, this must be like organic fluorine.

00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:28.880
<v SPEAKER_05>They were burning human blood.

00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:29.440
<v SPEAKER_05>Yep.

00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:30.160
<v SPEAKER_05>A lot of it.

00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:36.000
<v SPEAKER_05>So they had to pool a lot of samples to have the detection limits they needed to do this, like liters of blood.

00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:36.319
<v SPEAKER_05>Okay.

00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:46.960
<v SPEAKER_05>So they did that, and then they also used NMR and they saw some indications of what the structure might be, and it looked kind of like it could be PFOA, which they already knew was being produced.

00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:52.240
<v SPEAKER_05>And then it kind of stopped there because no companies would confirm that.

00:31:52.400 --> 00:31:55.599
<v SPEAKER_05>They couldn't get samples to confirm the identification.

00:31:56.559 --> 00:32:01.839
<v SPEAKER_05>And they didn't have any better analytical instrumentation to really confirm this.

00:32:02.160 --> 00:32:02.960
<v SPEAKER_07>That's wild.

00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:05.279
<v SPEAKER_07>So this is in the 60s and 70s.

00:32:05.519 --> 00:32:05.839
<v SPEAKER_07>Yep.

00:32:06.079 --> 00:32:11.359
<v SPEAKER_07>And then when do we confirm that that's going on?

00:32:11.680 --> 00:32:20.400
<v SPEAKER_05>A lot of other contaminants are being studied at like around this time, like DDT and PCBs, all using GCMS, so gas chromatography and mass spec.

00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:24.960
<v SPEAKER_05>And those are easy because they're these big aromatic semi-volatile things.

00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:26.960
<v SPEAKER_05>We have the technology to measure those.

00:32:27.119 --> 00:32:33.440
<v SPEAKER_05>But PFASes fly under the radar for a long time because they're not amenable to those analytical techniques.

00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:43.359
<v SPEAKER_05>And then in like the late 90s, early 2000s, electric spray ionization becomes a consumer instrumentation that's widespread.

00:32:43.519 --> 00:32:50.240
<v SPEAKER_05>And that's the first time that we can really use mass spectrometry, couple it to liquid chromatography, and look at soluble compounds.

00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:51.440
<v SPEAKER_05>In the liquid, okay.

00:32:51.680 --> 00:33:03.920
<v SPEAKER_05>So late 90s, early 2000s is when they start developing methods to do quantitation targeted, actually see with 100% confidence PFOA, BFOS.

00:33:04.160 --> 00:33:07.359
<v SPEAKER_05>A lot of that work was done by Chris Hansen.

00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:16.880
<v SPEAKER_05>She had a paper come out in 2001 where she showed we developed this method to measure these compounds, and we can't find clean blood to demonstrate the method.

00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:17.519
<v SPEAKER_05>Wow.

00:33:17.680 --> 00:33:17.920
<v SPEAKER_05>Yep.

00:33:18.079 --> 00:33:23.359
<v SPEAKER_05>So by the time we had a method measured, it was in every human being's blood that she looked at.

00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:24.400
<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah, too late.

00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:37.200
<v SPEAKER_07>You were saying that some communities have been able to make enough of like an uproar to at least get their water diluted so that there's less PFASs in there.

00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:44.240
<v SPEAKER_07>Have you done any of that work with the general public telling people what you know because you're so knowledgeable about this field?

00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:45.359
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah.

00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:56.880
<v SPEAKER_05>When you talk to community members who are actually grappling with contamination, you get a clearer picture of what the most important questions are to answer.

00:33:57.119 --> 00:34:09.440
<v SPEAKER_05>Recently, we've started to get involved talking more to people in Western Pennsylvania, Allegheny County, um, a lot of rural areas around here where people are on private drinking water wells.

00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:12.320
<v SPEAKER_05>And that can be really scary because you're kind of on your own.

00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.360
<v SPEAKER_05>You don't even have municipal treatment that's regulated.

00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:18.719
<v SPEAKER_05>You're just getting whatever's in the groundwater and Yeah.

00:34:18.880 --> 00:34:29.199
<v SPEAKER_05>And maybe you have some treatment on it, but you're probably not you're not getting it analyzed regularly the way they would at a municipal plant where they, you know, do this kind of testing regularly.

00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:42.480
<v SPEAKER_05>So we've been talking to a lot of communities like that to try and figure out can we do analysis to figure out what chemicals maybe should be included in biomonitoring programs as well as in drinking water monitoring programs.

00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:48.880
<v SPEAKER_05>So, like blood sampling is something that a lot of people who live in contaminated communities have gotten interested in doing.

00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:50.880
<v SPEAKER_05>So they want to know what their body burden is.

00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:54.639
<v SPEAKER_05>They want to know how much PFAS are inside their body.

00:34:54.800 --> 00:34:55.039
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah.

00:34:55.199 --> 00:35:04.480
<v SPEAKER_05>Um, and those tests are usually a small list of targeted PFASes that we have analytical standards for that you can go and measure.

00:35:04.719 --> 00:35:07.039
<v SPEAKER_05>But there's again like thousands of these other things.

00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:12.960
<v SPEAKER_05>So one of the things we're interested in doing research on is what other chemicals probably should be on those lists.

00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:13.519
<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:20.480
<v SPEAKER_07>So what I guess if you had like a hope for the future of our drinking water, what would it be?

00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:25.599
<v SPEAKER_05>I mean, I have I have pretty high hopes that we can get clean drinking water.

00:35:25.679 --> 00:35:27.679
<v SPEAKER_05>I think the technology is out there.

00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:31.679
<v SPEAKER_05>I am not in any way like technophobe or a chemophobe.

00:35:31.760 --> 00:35:34.559
<v SPEAKER_05>Like I it's not just an unreasonable fear of these things.

00:35:34.639 --> 00:35:36.239
<v SPEAKER_05>I actually think it's the opposite.

00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:43.119
<v SPEAKER_05>Like I have a lot of faith in synthetic chemists and the technology that we can develop to get rid of stuff.

00:35:43.280 --> 00:35:48.079
<v SPEAKER_05>Like we don't need to be using this much chorinated chemistry and everything.

00:35:48.239 --> 00:35:48.559
<v SPEAKER_07>Right.

00:35:48.719 --> 00:35:54.480
<v SPEAKER_05>Um, turn off the industrial tap, stop making the the things that are highly persistent.

00:35:54.639 --> 00:35:54.880
<v SPEAKER_05>Yeah.

00:35:55.119 --> 00:35:58.079
<v SPEAKER_05>That's kind of where I where I want to see this end out.

00:36:10.480 --> 00:36:25.920
<v SPEAKER_04>So there seems to be a consensus between Chris, who we heard from earlier, and Carrie, that one big role that chemists can play in keeping our water clean is by coming up with new chemistry to make products we use degrade faster and into less dangerous compounds.

00:36:26.239 --> 00:36:26.480
<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:26.880
<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah.

00:36:26.960 --> 00:36:35.440
<v SPEAKER_07>I mean, obviously we still need chemists to detect pollution and also to help clean up pollution where we've already, you know, done it.

00:36:35.599 --> 00:36:42.960
<v SPEAKER_07>Uh, but as Carrie said, it's best not to pollute in the first place, especially when some of that pollution is so persistent.

00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:44.239
<v SPEAKER_07>Yeah, totally.

00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:47.840
<v SPEAKER_01>The decision for clean water cannot wait.

00:36:48.159 --> 00:36:49.760
<v SPEAKER_01>The problem is acute.

00:36:50.239 --> 00:36:52.719
<v SPEAKER_01>The solution is in our hands.

00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:59.119
<v SPEAKER_01>And the time is now to take your stand for clean water.

00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:02.239
<v SPEAKER_01>It's your decision.

00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:10.159
<v SPEAKER_07>On the third episode of this pollution mini-series, we focus on land.

00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:12.800
<v SPEAKER_07>Tune in next week.

00:37:18.960 --> 00:37:23.519
<v SPEAKER_07>This was Chain Reaction, a podcast by the American Chemical Society.

00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:26.079
<v SPEAKER_07>Our executive producer is Sam Jones.

00:37:26.239 --> 00:37:28.480
<v SPEAKER_07>Our lead producer is me, Margo Wall.

00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:30.719
<v SPEAKER_07>Research was done by Beck Roldon.

00:37:30.880 --> 00:37:32.559
<v SPEAKER_07>Fact checking by Michelle Boucher.

00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:35.840
<v SPEAKER_07>Production help from Michael David and Matt Radcliffe.

00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:38.079
<v SPEAKER_07>The theme song was by Deep Peterschmidt.

00:37:38.159 --> 00:37:43.920
<v SPEAKER_07>And of course, you can always email us at chainreaction at acs.org.