E326- What Should You Do If You're Dog is Reactive On The Leash?

[SPEAKER_00]: Hello, no bad dog army.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is an excellent podcast with hey, this guy sounds just like Ray Romano if you guys remember That show everybody loves race.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm just like it might be him.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't say that it was him, but anyway Great episode with two dog owners who are dealing with everyday stuff that y'all are dealing with things like leash reactivity.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's just a really grass roots
[SPEAKER_00]: thing that I think a lot of dog owners are dealing with to have this hey we're doing this and we have to hide behind cars and this is what we do when we see a dog and so we kind of just go through some some really really really big mistakes that everyday dog owners will make because
[SPEAKER_00]: That's why you're not successful.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things is, which we talk about at some point in this podcast, is so many people who are working on different things like leash reactivity, or leash pulling, or anything like that, what ends up happening is guys is you only work on the leash reactivity for 30 seconds when you see another dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: You see another dog and your adrenaline goes and it's just able to kind of black out and then you're sweating and then the dogs walk by and it's over and you
[SPEAKER_00]: and you gauge how good it went by if your dog pulled you to the ground or turned and bit you or got to the other dog or whatever, but the reality is you have no data.
[SPEAKER_00]: You have no ability and no way to tell all the things that you've been practicing if they worked.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like being an athlete or anything, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're preparing for something.
[SPEAKER_00]: You go and take the test and the teacher never gives, they say, hey, you got 10 things wrong out of 13.
[SPEAKER_00]: But they never tell you what you got wrong.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, how are you supposed to get better and understand the mistakes you made if you don't know the mistakes that you got wrong?
[SPEAKER_00]: So we talk about making sure somebody films you when you're out, all that stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's good podcasts for anybody out there that wants to have a better relationship and really understand how to start the leash reactivity blueprint.
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, most importantly, the most common mistakes, the lowest hanging fruit.
[SPEAKER_00]: that dog owners do every day.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is easy for you guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Enjoy the podcast, hope you're well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, enjoy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_01]: Most of the time, 99% of the time when you're walking on the sidewalk, he's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: People pass by and sometimes the sidewalk is why, sometimes it's narrow.
[SPEAKER_01]: quickly win this construction, and I have to be very vigilant about it, but 99% of the time it's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: But you know, 1% of the time it's not fine, and that's when we need to deal with that situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's the second problem, the jumping.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the third problem, which I doubtful, there's any easy solutions to it all, are other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: When we were with you in the training, I think you did very well with other dogs, but in every day encounters, it's not good, not every dog, but most dogs elicit a response for them.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've gotten pretty proficient at either a dog's coming right toward us on the sidewalk,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, I'll turn around.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's something you taught us to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: We execute a, you know, a reversal and all is fine, except if we're going in the wrong direction now, but we figured that out.
[SPEAKER_01]: walk toward the street and basically hide behind a car car.
[SPEAKER_01]: He doesn't see the other dog or if he does, the dog's not that close to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: We let the other dog pass and then we continue on our merry way.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Another thing I often do is if I see dog coming and there's no car that I can hide behind, I'll just face him toward a wall away from the other dog and kind of, you know, hold him tight and that will usually work too.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, kind of a body block, yeah, but, you know, it doesn't seem to be any other answer that we've come up with is the what to do about other dogs.
[SPEAKER_01]: He lives with another dog who's a 100% lab and, you know, their best buddies and so, you know, but, and maybe that's just true.
[SPEAKER_01]: If he's familiar with the other dog, he's fine because the same thing happens when he goes to day camp, he has no problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, those are the three issues, but all of that has many things that maybe we should be investigating one of those collars that provides a, what do you call it, electric stimulation, and we actually call it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we actually watched one of your videos here, I guess, your introductory video on that, and while we've been opposed in the past to it, it feels like with this dog, maybe that's something that will be
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a house in South Carolina where we recently installed a virtual fence around the property and we've been we followed the instructions on how to train your dog on it and he respects the fence he doesn't like to get the shock it's not at very high level at all, but you know he knows that that's not good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's been working while we've been there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's only been a week or so that we had him there and we're dealing with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: What would happen if there was another dog on the other side of the virtual fence or a deer?
[SPEAKER_01]: kind of thing, the fence would not be enough to restrain him, but we haven't had that situation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you can take him outside, off leash, and he runs around, and he respects the fact that he can't go beyond the boundary.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, and that's made us think that maybe the E collar, you know, he doesn't like to be shocked, obviously, and he understands it, and maybe that would be a solution here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, that's the end of my spiel.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, Cheryl, you want to add anything to that?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I think you've summarized it.
[SPEAKER_01]: those are the issues.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to just to confirm, uh, to kind of put everything together, I missed how old it's a, I know you said it's a lab mix.
[SPEAKER_00]: How old is it?
[SPEAKER_04]: It's five five.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So five years old.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the main thing is, uh, well, there's three big things.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the main thing would be the polling, the jumping, and then the reactivity towards other dogs on walks.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because right now you have to kind of do this whole horse and pony show to get to get away.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_01]: those are the three things.
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, we've been through several different trainers over those five years.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think your program was really the most successful by far in terms of feeling like we were making good progress on dealing with his problems.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was not like we had been trying over the five years we have and you know a couple programs were complete failures but I think
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, although as we said, it doesn't seem to be as effective now as it might have been a few months ago.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, well, that's good to hear.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, and, and the program that you guys did, I know that you said that we did you take my, my online seminar with ours.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Cool.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's let's let's go through the process right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you let's say he starts to react on a well, let's just do the jumping first.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's start with that in the polling.
[SPEAKER_00]: So
[SPEAKER_00]: you out for a walk you're out for a walk with them and he sees another dog or sorry he sees another person you know and and then you said that when he runs it's more it's more so when you say he's jumping and you feel like he's protecting you what does he do when he jumps on these people does he just want to put his paws on them and say what's going on or he's not aggressive it doesn't sound like
[SPEAKER_04]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he barks at them and lunges at them.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lunge.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's not a biting.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a lunge.
[SPEAKER_00]: Probably scares him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, look, I often say he, he sits at the, we have this house.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he sits on the second floor by the window.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he watches what's going on in the street.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when someone comes to our door,
[SPEAKER_01]: We have a security system, we have a doorbell, we don't need any of that because we have a dog sitting in the window who will start barking when someone violates the perimeter and dares to come to our door.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, who is this person coming to our door?
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, I frankly think he thinks he's protecting us, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, rationally, that's not the case.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the worst thing in the world, he's protecting us from those ever coming to the front door, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, if they actually come in the door, like the dog walker for Cali, the other dog, that he particularly gets crazy, because someone has breached the perimeter and, you know, what to do now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think the lunging is a little bit of the same behavior in his mind, which is somebody is a threat.
[SPEAKER_01]: Why is this person running down the sidewalk?
[SPEAKER_01]: Like their pants are on fire, you know, that doesn't seem right to him, you know, better to the market them in lunch to make sure they stay away from us.
[SPEAKER_04]: Problem though is that he has scratched people, right, you know, by jumping on them.
[SPEAKER_04]: We got our contractor at our house right in the face with his paws and yeah, it's kind of our fall.
[SPEAKER_01]: My fault because I came up from the basement into his living room.
[SPEAKER_01]: Arctic didn't know he was coming.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so his first reaction was to blunge him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he has sharp paws because we can't seem to get them put without putting him under general anesthesia.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he has sharp paws.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's a problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let me ask you this.
[SPEAKER_00]: What have you done right now?
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's see you're out for walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's walk through this process.
[SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me, you're out for a walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: He sees a person.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gets excited.
[SPEAKER_00]: He gets stimulated because the number one thing and the number two thing that you talked about, which is the pulling on the leash and you have to
[SPEAKER_00]: Treat him and you have to pull him back and all that stuff and then him lunging are kind of like, you know, the same issue so he's he's getting excited He's getting stimulated.
[SPEAKER_00]: He sees this person coming What do you do when this happens?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it the same that you would do for the leash reactivity and kind of avoid and run away?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean with the well if it's a jogger What I do is to these 10 I can to move out of the way
[SPEAKER_01]: to hold him very tight on the leash and say leave it to him and try to put him in a spot where he's not going to be able to actually lunch.
[SPEAKER_01]: And if I hold tight on the leash and I point him away from the jogger, nothing bad is going to happen.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's not going to be able to jump because I've got him so tight.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that is always possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes the Cheryl says the jogger comes up behind you,
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, it's, he's got some room to make a jump and you know, you got to deal with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, okay, yeah, okay, you know, in terms of when he pulls me on the leash, you know, what I've been doing is basically stop and say, hey, let's go slow.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, but, you know, that has limited effect on them.
[SPEAKER_04]: But you can see in the little tug on the leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but that has even less effect.
[SPEAKER_01]: I used to think that was the way to handle it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And maybe that did work for a while.
[SPEAKER_01]: Doesn't seem to be tugging on the leash.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does that remember why should you do that?
[SPEAKER_01]: We'd tug on the leash and the dog would get the point.
[SPEAKER_01]: That doesn't seem to work for me anymore.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK. And remind me what color are you using right now with them?
[SPEAKER_00]: I know that you got a couple of days.
[SPEAKER_04]: You're a prontoler.
[SPEAKER_00]: OK.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so let's walk through this, David, when you say that you're tugging on the collar, I'm assuming you're correcting the dog with the with the prong collar when he jumps when he pulls, et cetera, and you feel like it, and you feel like it doesn't have any effect, is that correct?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I feel like he's become immune to the pronged against who's neck.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, because it's pretty tight.
[SPEAKER_01]: It couldn't be any tighter and so he must feel it, but I think he's.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm just sucked it up and said, okay, so that hurts a little bit, but you know, I still feel like I need to protect these people from the job.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the things I'll say is you have to make sure, like for an example, when you guys are correcting the dog, it has to be kind of a, has to be a pop.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right, so there's two things that you have to really strategize here with and the first thing is Is teaching the dog the behavior we want them to do alternatively then jumping and pulling which is Heal walk nice and off would be hey get down and then the collar
[SPEAKER_00]: is an enforcement, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So the correction from the prong collar is actually an enforcement that we're going to be using, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So when we say heel, let me say walk next to me, nicely on a leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: And when you pull, you get corrected.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we're not waiting for the dog to just because what what happens is a lot of dog owners, they wait for the dog to make the mistake or the thing that we don't want them to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we just pull them back.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that doesn't as you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I walk the way I think you taught me to, which is fully the least in one hand by my side.
[SPEAKER_01]: And as he's walking nicely, I'll say to him, good heal, and then I'll award him, and, you know, he seems to like that, you know, so he gets positive reinforcement, he's doing it well, and that's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then, you know, after a few blocks, that turns into him starting to pull me and
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I don't have a consistent man for, hey, you're not doing it right anymore, other than the pull-and-back and say, stop pulling me or whatever, as I say, slow down, I guess I say, yeah, maybe I need to do something different there, but I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: I do feel like if your point is I need to be reinforcing the positive behavior, I think I do that by saying, good heal, and he does react to that and I give him a treat.
[SPEAKER_01]: He likes that, you know?
[SPEAKER_01]: off we can keep going.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's all until we go.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, here's the thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is the mistake a lot of people make David is you have to heal the dog for a fair amount of time, a realistic amount of time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So making sure, like let's say, you know, for an example, let's just make it easy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's say it's a mile walk, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't you don't want to go out with with a dog,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't want to say any and any capacity, but you don't want to go out with the dog and expect them to heal the entire time for, you know, for the full mile.
[SPEAKER_00]: What you would do is you would do like little patterns, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So it would be art a kill from, you know, this mailbox to that mailbox, et cetera.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you go out, are you, do you feel like,
[SPEAKER_01]: where he likes to either pee or poop.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, he starts to indicate that he wants to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I obviously have to let him go and he wants to do some smelling to check it out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so, you know, understand, that's what's going on then.
[SPEAKER_01]: I gotta give him some leash to breathe.
[SPEAKER_01]: Feel with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's fine.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of a natural break from it all.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yeah, I don't think on being like,
[SPEAKER_01]: to the man.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let me say something else about this story.
[SPEAKER_03]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was watching him this morning with Cheryl, who was putting him in the other dog through a bunch of commands.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, leave it, come here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, this is smart dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: He is very obedient in the confines of our house doing the commands that you wanted to do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Think that's right, Cheryl?
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, I was just, I periodically just practice with them with, you know, the basics.
[SPEAKER_04]: the two-year-old lab who is much more interesting getting treats.
[SPEAKER_04]: But yeah, I mean, he'll stay for a good amount of time if I tell him.
[SPEAKER_04]: But I think the problem is that he's good until there's something that triggers him, which he can't control, like the jogger or another dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: The basic training just kind of well, here's another example of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he comes to the doorbell.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, and you tell him to stay to go place and he knows he's supposed to go place, but it feels like his hormones or whatever it is and so kicked in that he's just.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he can't deal with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's like, he's looking at the window.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's somebody there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, hey, dad, this is an emergency.
[SPEAKER_02]: I know you want me to go place.
[SPEAKER_02]: We got an emergency situation here.
[SPEAKER_02]: Someone is at the door and, you know, whether they're about to reach the perimeter.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay, we can't be doing this stay stuff.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's kind of what he's brain is telling him.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that's the right.
[SPEAKER_02]: You sure.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would agree.
[SPEAKER_00]: Here's the and here's where like it absolutely all this is correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: And this is where like.
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem is is you have to eliminate the, sorry, let me back up.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, somebody's at the front door, somebody rings the doorbell, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you're not.
[SPEAKER_00]: We're not trying to tell the dog that they can't react.
[SPEAKER_00]: All we're trying to do is have them behave, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: When the dog reacts, we say, Hey, thank you for letting me know somebody's here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leave it and sit and stay.
[SPEAKER_00]: The problem you're probably having, which is a lot of people have is your your obedience is probably like a let the so let's just say there's three levels of obedience level three would be Yoda.
[SPEAKER_00]: level one would be basic beginner entry level stuff.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it seems to me and again this is a lot of people's problem is you are asking the dog to do level three stuff with level one skill sets.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so let's say somebody's at the front door and you want the dog to stay in position.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well if the obedience isn't super good just yet, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You haven't really pushed the dog
[SPEAKER_00]: variations of tests and stimulation and and the caveat to that is is making sure that the dog is also on leash because your leash are like your training wheels so it would be like putting on a you know a two-year-old kid on a bike that's never been on a bike and they keep flopping over and they get frustrated they never want to do it again they cry they hate it right so of course that's not going to be a good experience and you're going to get frustrated and you're almost a hundred percent going to fail and
[SPEAKER_00]: So it's important that when you guys are dealing with some of these things in the house So what Cheryl will say and is like yeah, we basically what you're saying Cheryl is what a lot of people express is my dog listens until they don't Or my dog listens until there's something more distracting which is real.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is reality, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, dogs are animals, they're instinctual, they're protective, they're, they got drive, they got all these different things and a lot of times they're bored because they're living with a bunch of humans.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what you want to do is make sure that if you were to say, hey Tom, somebody comes to the front door, Arctic loses it or another thing is he knows sit, he knows stay, but when somebody comes to the front door, he doesn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's just, that's actually, you know, that's why I kind of created this whole
[SPEAKER_00]: something that we do is as owners that kind of set the dog up for failure is because you're giving the dog too much freedom.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to make sure you put the dog back on a leash and you walk through the equation.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the rules are just stop for a second.
[SPEAKER_04]: The problem with that is that, you know, we don't know always when someone's coming.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I guess the question, the other day the dog
[SPEAKER_04]: and tried to practice just exactly what you're suggesting here.
[SPEAKER_04]: And it worked pretty well because he did stay, you know, he tried to break away, but you know, he understood.
[SPEAKER_04]: The problem is we lead the leash on all day.
[SPEAKER_04]: Number one and number two, if there are two of us, if there's two of us here, one can get the door and one can hold dog.
[SPEAKER_04]: But if there's only one of us here, that's-
[SPEAKER_01]: note that in the litany of things that I mentioned, we didn't mention this one because well, it's annoying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I honestly I could live with it if we could deal with the other two or three things, you know, the polling when I'm walking him is a problem and the jumping on people is a real hazard because I don't know he's going to jump on and you know the barking like going crazy when someone comes to the doors annoying but hey if we could get the others on the control that would be you know that would be real progress and you know so yeah I understand you got to have a leash on and you can't expect them just without the leash to be
[SPEAKER_01]: doing what he should be doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: And but as Cheryl says, we can't have the leash on them all day, so that's the problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, that's a lesser problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think compared to the, what do I do about the pulling and what do I do about the, the, the occasional jump?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I'll say this too, um, think about this, uh, deliche is temporary, just like the training wheels our guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: So my thought behind this and what I'm trying to get at here is,
[SPEAKER_00]: that you want the dog to understand the word right that that you say.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when when the construction guy or your neighbor or your family comes over and the dog or somebody's running by and the dog gets excited once the jump for whatever reason.
[SPEAKER_00]: When you say off, you want the dog to understand what off is, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm not insinuating that you have to keep the leash on all the time again, just like, you know, if I had, you know, I have two young boys now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if my three-year-old grows up to be 15 and he still got training wheels, that's a problem, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So somebody's not teaching the kid had a ride, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Or depending on that, and that's where that's what I'm kind of saying here is your
[SPEAKER_00]: teaching the dog what we want them to do because a lot of people get into this here's what a lot of people do dog owners again is they they have these issues i say okay your dog is uh you know not getting corrected for this your dog is not getting punished for this this is why they get the prawn collar they get a slip leash they get whatever they want to use
[SPEAKER_00]: And then they go, okay, this is working.
[SPEAKER_00]: This is great.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm seeing change, but there's this really granular and important step here is making sure that we're teaching the dog the behaviors and the cues and the words that are coming out of our mouth.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that way the dog isn't dependent on the equipment.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you said Arctic sit, stay, and then he got up and you corrected him because he was on leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: He should know that he got up and he got corrected.
[SPEAKER_00]: But
[SPEAKER_00]: What you're probably missing is the sustainability of what we can't have the leash on the dog the whole time and and I would agree that's not realistic
[SPEAKER_00]: and I would say that's also not the point either.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to make sure that when you're teaching the dog the heel, the off the sit this day, really any behavior that it's sustainable that when the word comes out of your mouth, your dog knows it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They know that at some point in their life, they've gotten corrected or punished because they didn't listen and it doesn't matter if there's a circus coming through the living room or if they have equipment on or they don't, they're going to listen to you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's where you're probably missing is you're stepping your, you're kind of getting this shortcut in where you're like, okay, you know, a lot of people see that drastic immediate change when they're getting dragged around the room on a flat collar or harness and you put a prawn collar on that's invented to help people communicate with their dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Specifically for, you know, leash pulling.
[SPEAKER_00]: Wow, this is a huge difference, but the problem is is if you're not enforcing with the prong collar on behaviors, the dog fundamentally needs to understand, then the dog is going to become a equipment aware and only listening if there's equipment or whatever or to your point David, like you said, it'll it'll become, they'll kind of get used to it where the prong collar isn't as meaningful anymore, the
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but I guess it leads me with, okay, so where are we in terms of at least these two behaviors that we want to fix?
[SPEAKER_01]: What should we be doing?
[SPEAKER_01]: What about the e-collar?
[SPEAKER_01]: What, what, yeah, where are we going?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the so yeah, the remote collar has many different applications and really that the biggest one is communicating with your dog off leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's the biggest thing the remote collar does is is is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any time my dog listens really great when they're on leash my dog really understands everything or whatever and but but when my dogs not on leash they take it yeah because you're going to get dogs who They know Right from wrong so when they jump they know it's bad when they pull they know it's bad, but You're also going to get some dogs because there's most dogs who just they're not they don't have clear evidence of what they Should be doing differently because the owners aren't providing it, but then there's other dogs
[SPEAKER_00]: Excuse me, and my dog being one of them is they're like, oh, I know what you want.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've done it a hundred times But I'm gonna be cheeky and if I get away with this I will because the risk is is more more valuable than than the reward or reward is more valuable than the risk, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So so anyways, you're gonna get that too where the dog does need to be physically enforced, but to your point you guys are like every other human that I've ever talked to where
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know how realistic it is to have this leash drag around the house or if we're in our house here we go in vacation or whatever you want to be able to communicate with your dog off leash and that's what the remote color does is it cuts away the leash and creates this invisible application of training.
[SPEAKER_01]: When you're saying though if I hear you right it's much it's more valuable when he's off leash than what he's on leash and at least my first two issues
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, the joggers and jumping on people and pulling me, that's all, but he's on leash walking in here in the city.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: But does the, does the E collar help communicate with the dog?
[SPEAKER_04]: In other words, if he's not paying attention, does, you know, making him listen to the E collar,
[SPEAKER_04]: path is I'm going to ignore what dad is saying.
[SPEAKER_04]: I know what he wants me to do, but this jogger is making me crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, so to answer your first question, Cheryl, the remote collar is a communication tool.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's that's all it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is it is it communicates?
[SPEAKER_00]: Absolutely.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, the important piece here is the, it has to be communicating and reinforcing or enforcing a pre-known behavior, which means if you said Arctic come, for an example, many people just want the e-collar for
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not 100% in what recall is, it's not really that useful to you, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of like buying an iPhone for a caveman.
[SPEAKER_04]: It doesn't really make any sense, but he would come.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if he knows what recall is, so let's say you're outside in your yard, and you said, and you say art at come, and there's a squirrel or a runner on the other side of it, whatever his, his, his Achilles Helios here, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You say, you say art at come.
[SPEAKER_00]: Think about if he was on leash, you said art at come.
[SPEAKER_00]: He said, no, you pop the collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: He'd say, okay, he turned around and you'd come, you know, maybe against this will, but he would do it, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And that's just
[SPEAKER_00]: So, if you're off-leash, the remote collar essentially gives you the ability to communicate the same way, except it's wirelessly and not physically leash to the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to your point, Cheryl, is you're communicating with the dog on not any type of profound information.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just enforcing behaviors the dog already knows.
[SPEAKER_00]: You say come.
[SPEAKER_00]: He says, I'm over here.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're over there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Nananabubu.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to come.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then you can reach out and touch the dog from inside your living room if you wanted to and that changes.
[SPEAKER_04]: So the reason I'm asking is that just take the example of him barking out the window.
[SPEAKER_04]: If you had the e-color on, he knows go place.
[SPEAKER_04]: So if you had the e-color on, you could communicate with him even if he didn't have his leash on, right?
[SPEAKER_04]: and give them a little vibration and remind him to go place.
[SPEAKER_04]: Maybe that would break the cycle of him, sort of saying, I hear you want me to go place, but I'm not on the leash so I'm not gonna do it because this is more important to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: Or that I agree with you, but also if he's on the leash and a jogger comes,
[SPEAKER_01]: And while I've communicated to him, not supposed to jump, you know, the pawn collar is not getting through to him that maybe the e-collar gets through to him and he gets the point, hey, these serious about this, I guess I can't jump, does it have that effect on him?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or when he's pulling me and I'm telling him, hey, slow down, and he's not listening to me, maybe the e-collar gets through to him with the pawn collar is not.
[SPEAKER_04]: We've sort of rethought this whole issue.
[SPEAKER_04]: Is it did seem to be very effective with this electric fence?
[SPEAKER_04]: He learned very quickly what he wasn't supposed to do.
[SPEAKER_04]: And so I'm wondering whether this E-Color would help him learn or reinforce.
[SPEAKER_04]: Let's put it that way because he knows the commands.
[SPEAKER_04]: Reinforce that, hey, we want you to pay attention here.
[SPEAKER_04]: And do what we're telling you to do even though we know this is very exciting for you and you want to, you know, protect us or whatever the heck you think she's doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is the remote collar extends your ability to reach out and touch the dog anywhere.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the interesting thing here, and I think the nuance thing here for most dog owners is understanding that the remote collar is not always a punitive piece of equipment.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, right, you could put it on the board.
[SPEAKER_04]: Hey, here we are, pay attention.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's reaching out
[SPEAKER_00]: And with the, so the difference between like your invisible fence type, a perimeter collar and the remote collar, the training remote collar is the perimeter type fence well not always but most often times it'll, the dog gets close to the fence, it'll give a warning either an audible warning, a low grade vibration.
[SPEAKER_00]: and then depending on the system that you have, it'll go up in variances of corrections, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: The remote, the remote collar is very similar except you manually can control that and you can manually apply it to anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: So not just primators, it would be place it stay.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog decides to get up, you can audibly.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's your there's your audible warning back up buddy and then they go back and if they don't then you can add the remote collar correction or the remote collar low level communication there and so so anyway so it's very similar it's just depends on what model you have because some of the older models for perimeter based e-collar fences are strictly if they get close to that thing it sucks form and then they learn to not go near it.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the remote collar is much different than that because you have a variance that you can reach out and communicate with the dog at a non-punitive level.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's how we train deaf dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: We use the remote collar to come back to us all the time with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, so that kind of goes over that, but let's talk about what we can do about the jumping and things like that right now, because you know, that we could, I just want to give you guys a roadmap here that you can get off your phone and work on.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the heel stuff, just to just to back up a little bit and reiterate and regroup here, the heel stuff is, again, David, make sure, do you have a break, like an audible release, come in with the dog?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, not really.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so that's I would start adding that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the reason is is for what we talked about earlier, which would be you tell them to heal, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He goes out, there becomes this gray area for the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So let's say you say, Arctic, I want you right next to me, and no pulling, you need to be at my heels, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: And then in your head, you have the discretionary deciding factor on when the dog can release themselves and go potty and be a dog and sniff around.
[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're not allocating a certain cue or behavior, you're not able behavior to say, okay, break, the dog has this gray area of like, okay, I'm supposed to be in my heel here, but for some reason after five minutes, two minutes, ten minutes, whatever,
[SPEAKER_00]: my dad or mom just allows me to wander off.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't really know.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I completely get it.
[SPEAKER_01]: That makes a lot of sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can see what that would be valuable to him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he knows, okay, don't have to follow directions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, this is free time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can make it wander a little bit now.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I've mixed a lot of sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It would be a good break word.
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe you should just say break, but it's more of the voice inflection.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, break.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, there's okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So heal is neutral heal good heal.
[SPEAKER_00]: Brick just like that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can say whatever you can say candy.
[SPEAKER_04]: I say free.
[SPEAKER_04]: I say free.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just the it's just really the way you say it more importantly.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can say free whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: But but that that goes back to my point earlier David is when.
[SPEAKER_00]: So when you're struggling with, with maybe leash pulling for an example, if the dog doesn't have a binary ability to understand when they're supposed to be working and when they're okay to be on recess, they really leave it up to themselves to decide when they're going to walk nicely and when they're thinking is when he does that pulling, I mean, there's different behaviors when we get to certain places on the walk, he.
[SPEAKER_01]: wants to pee, whatever, you know, he can be a case that's a me because he just starts to wander in a way, Mel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I guess I should say to him then free or break or something, but I don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: But, you know, he and I both know that, okay, we're now not healing anymore and that's fine, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: When he starts to fool me, it's a different kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's like, hey, I want to go faster than you're going.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to get back to where we started.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, it's it's
[SPEAKER_01]: Something's making me a little tense here about this and let's get out of here, you know, and and I'm thinking myself, yeah, but we're like two blocks away from home, like it's not going to work.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't walk that fast and it's not good, you know, so.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, just having the distinction of heel and brake is huge, because that's why there's this dogs will put the step pull them through the prong collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: They start getting frustrated because it's kind of damned if you do damned if you don't.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no clarity.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're basically like, I want you to pay attention now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, okay, why not?
[SPEAKER_00]: Just a second ago, I don't understand.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just start collecting a structure, David.
[SPEAKER_00]: heal, break, free, whatever, share off you when he's ready.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: So just heal and then free, heal and then free.
[SPEAKER_00]: This will start to create the ability for you to turn on and off.
[SPEAKER_00]: Think of a switch, like a manual switch, click on and off.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, okay, we're working, you're paying attention, you're engaged, you're next to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: and now you can break.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now you can break and pay a dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's important.
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't, you're wasting your time if you don't have that because again, the dog is trying to decipher when is it okay for them to be on recess and when there isn't, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like a kid showing up for school and they're like, what are we going to do today?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I don't know, we're either going to, we're either going to do math or they're going to do recess.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, which one is it?
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't know, you decide.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then punishing them for deciding something and said gaslighting, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's that.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing is is your correction.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is just a
[SPEAKER_00]: When you let's say you're out for walk and in the dog is it doesn't matter what the dog should never be jumping on people regardless if they're on a break or they're in a heel so it's it's across the board never appropriate So let's say you're out for walk doesn't matter what the dog is in they see a jogger
[SPEAKER_00]: They get locked in.
[SPEAKER_00]: They start getting stimulated.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a couple things you can do.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can, I mean, so many, there's so many different ways.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can either ask the dog to sit, you can ask the dog to down.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can ask the dog to heal.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can ask that you or you can just stand there and say, leave it, which means, hey, you can't jump on this person or lunge at this person.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what we do.
[SPEAKER_01]: Leave it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's fine.
[SPEAKER_00]: And every dog is different.
[SPEAKER_00]: When I go out with my master, he's made me such a good reactive, more of a reactive dog trainer expert than I already have been because he's so inconsistent with what works for him.
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, so I will, I have my treat pouch.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm either going to say, hey, pay attention to me and you get paid buddy, everything's great, rainbow's butterflies, but if he just choose violence for no reason, I'm like, okay, now I have to correct you because this is the road you're going down.
[SPEAKER_00]: So with the same thing with Arctic when you're out with them.
[SPEAKER_00]: you can tell him to leave it, you can sit there.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would say if he is like I would say half-assing his reactivity, which means you guys just find it to be this place of almost insecurity or it's not serious, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not scraping the ground to, you know, drooling out of his mouth to get to this person.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's probably just
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, medium reactive.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would work through it in a way of if he is food motivated or if he isn't.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know you're I know Cheryl you said very very food motive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, but your other dog is in as much as that way you said.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, no.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, both food motive.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_04]: So easy even more
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, maybe that's what you said.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't catch that.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you go out with art.
[SPEAKER_00]: I can use it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got your treat pouch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Now the other thing is a lot of people pay their dog with food for things they shouldn't be.
[SPEAKER_00]: So then that way when they actually do the thing, it's not as rewarding and it's not as valuable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would be when you're trying to clarify something and almost recalibrate your relationship, guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't go out and just pay the dog for being cute.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to pay the dog with food or treats or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: When they do the thing, you've been looking for them to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you go out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You see a walker.
[SPEAKER_00]: You give them enough space and you just, you've got I personally, for me, I would just stand there and I would just say Arctic leave it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And as the person's jogging by, if he decides to physically go towards the person,
[SPEAKER_00]: because I don't really care that the dog is looking, because I don't think that's realistic.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, it'd be like telling a cat not to chase the mouse or look at the mouse or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not realistic.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he starts to, he starts, he's sitting there, he's watching the person go by.
[SPEAKER_00]: If he lunges or does anything that you don't like, it would be leave it and then pop the collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: Now the caveat to that is, and the granular, very important piece here, guys, is making sure
[SPEAKER_00]: that you're correcting the dog in a way that is meaningful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you're, David, I know you said you kind of tight that that leash up.
[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of people make the mistake of they're anticipating a physical reaction with their dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: which means the dog might pull them or whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they tend to pull the collar up before the dog reacts.
[SPEAKER_00]: Two things is you are clarifying to the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, the dog is going to react.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know it's going to react, so you're kind of getting the dog in a very anticipatory potentially anxious state.
[SPEAKER_00]: But then you're also deactivating your prom collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: So on your prank call, you have that triangle, you know, once the prongs are on the dogs and the dog, and then you have that triangle that you connect your leash to.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so if you tell people, it doesn't take much to soak a damp rag.
[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're already at 70%, which means the prank call is pretty much all the way activated, and then the person walks by and then you just pull up a little bit more, you're not going to do anything.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're deactivating the whole process of the prank call,
[SPEAKER_00]: What it sounds like you're doing from what you told me in the beginning of our conversation, where he's kind of just pulling you around, not listening, again.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's probably right.
[SPEAKER_01]: I would just say the concern with what you're saying is this.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is a very strong dog, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're just walking along and he suddenly decides
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, there's a reason why Cheryl doesn't walk, which is then he would be dragging her down the sidewalk, okay, because he's that strong, okay, and so I'm a lot stronger and I'm, you know, some way stronger than he is, but.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm also 72 years old and, you know, that's, uh, I got to be careful that he doesn't, you know, take off in some direction and, you know, I'm not expecting it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I could also end up flying on the sidewalk if I'm right careful.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you have.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, right.
[SPEAKER_01]: So is the defensive mechanism?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I took up on the, on the leash, that means I have maximum control so that when he decides to jump,
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he's not going to take me over with him.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, but I hear you, maybe I'm deactivating the collar by doing that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Because then, if I call it collar, it doesn't really have much effect anymore.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, but, yeah, but, you know, the issue is how do we, how do we protect the other people at the same time that we're trying to train him?
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean, if there was some way to control what was happening and we weren't worried about the person,
[SPEAKER_04]: Then I think I get what you're saying, but I agree with David, I would, I would like be holding him by his regular collar right next to my knees if I were taken in.
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, so I prioritize the making sure something doesn't happen so that, you know, either one of us is injured or there's other person's literature as opposed to.
[SPEAKER_01]: If I'm really trying to train him better here, I need to give him more leash so that I can, if he does start to jump, I can pull back to send it leave it.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah, the problem is in New York City.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's so many dogs and so many joggers and so many people that it really is a, it's a, you know, kind of a nightmare, unless you have a, you know, a dog like Cali, who just rolls over on her back like you see somebody on the street.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I totally get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it is a, it is a, it's a fine line and it's, it's, it's almost impossible not to, but here's what I don't want you to do, okay?
[SPEAKER_00]: So again, if you have a, if you have a, if you have a prawn collar and you say it's not working, but you're turning the prawn collar on and just waiting for the dog to try to pull through it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Might as well put the dog in a harness.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not going to work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's your, so I just, I just want to be mindful of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and I haven't thought about that before, but I hear what you're saying.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you're right that and maybe what about this maybe you just walking.
[SPEAKER_01]: I remember watching you do this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you had a way of pulling on him, jerking on him.
[SPEAKER_01]: making drinking up a little bit that was much more effective in terms of, as you say, activating the prawns, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe I could do a better job of that to get his attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think I'm not doing that right now because probably as he starts to walk fast, I probably tighten on the collar and just to keep more control of him.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then when I jerk it, it probably doesn't have any effect.
[SPEAKER_01]: I need to be thinking about sort of loosening it up more so that when I jerk it and jerk it up, it's maximizing the effect of the prongs.
[SPEAKER_01]: Is that make sense?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does it make sense to you?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, no, it does make sense to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I just need to that line between keeping control of him and also
[SPEAKER_01]: if I'm sort of a more open space, you know, I can do that better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now, we have this sort of alluded to.
[SPEAKER_01]: We have this house in South Carolina.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're going to be going there in a week and a half, and there is pretty much nobody on the street there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Except for the occasional bicycle rider, who elicits bicycle rider is almost like a jogger than him.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, why is this person moving so fast on this contraption?
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I might not like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So sometimes the barks of them where it starts to move toward them quickly, Chris are in a bicycle, so they get out of the way fast, but that's a good, another way to, it's a lot of user to train him there.
[SPEAKER_01]: If you search for pull me there, you know, I'm not worried about people walking on the sidewalk as a reason anybody.
[SPEAKER_01]: So then if you could put up your Trinity to work on this,
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, the jerking upwards and activating the prawns better than I've been doing.
[SPEAKER_01]: There's more to think about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been deactivating the prawns by folding the collar tight.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because I'm telling you, it's something that if you're not doing, right, you, it's like any of any tool.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like any tool.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like when you grab a Phillips and you don't need that, you need something else, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It literally won't work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It doesn't work.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's the same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: So there's that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think that's the lowest hanging fruit here in this conversation.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just making sure, hey, I have a prawn collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to correct my dog when, you know, they pull, they bark, they do this, they do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, well, you got to make sure you're using the equipment right, because if you're not, you're wasting your time.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's, and more importantly, it's not effective.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so start with that making sure that you go from zero to a hundred don't go 70 to a hundred because it's going to be less impactful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Does that make sense?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, start with start with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would be also.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think Cheryl had said this is how do you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Set up a scenario where you're not setting up your community, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And it sounds like you guys kind of have a couple different locations that you can go to and and that's great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, so what I would do is try to find people, right, with, like, if you have a big, a big sidewalk, a big, a big, a big street, any place that you can try to, that's what I do when I'm working with a reactive dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: I look for people, especially if I have parking lots and fields and parks and places where I can go where I can get relatively close to people and work on it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it shouldn't, guys, I know that this sounds crazy, but it shouldn't take you less than 10 minutes to really get this through.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think if you do, if you go around these things that can heighten the reactivity right so joggers, bikes, rollerbladers, things like this, you go around these places and start working through because right now, even if you see the thing here is guys, it's like a lot of dog owners, even if you said, hey, Tom, I just saw 30 people, we worked on it and nothing worked, but you're not using the equipment right, then it doesn't, do you
[SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, I'm going here.
[SPEAKER_01]: I hear you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, um...
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that's good.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think there's some things there we can certainly work on and what about you going back to the e-collar and you think that's worth trying down as well.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so the remote the remote collar is definitely something that you guys can implement and and and do really well with the problem is is you don't have the foundation yet to really apply the remote collar in a way that will will really make sense for you guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yes, I just want you guys to know that you have time to be able to use the remote color and all its fancy bells and whistles to be able to actually use it as a Swiss army knife instead of just one thing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: And so some people just get it.
[SPEAKER_00]: They correct the dog when they're not listening and some people are like that's all I wanted I didn't want the dog to jump, but I didn't want the dog to do this or whatever But I would I would really consider Getting your getting your basics down so the so the two things that the dog must know and they may already know it to
[SPEAKER_00]: Teach the dog the remote collar properly would be the recall and the and the place command So sending the dog away somewhere and then recalling the dog back and then the goal for you guys Which which which is for most people teach the remote collar and what it is?
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sure the dog understands what it is.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it would be call it conditioning conditioning the remote collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like learning a new sport whatever
[SPEAKER_00]: You just got to get used to it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: I know what this is.
[SPEAKER_00]: I understand it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I got the muscle memory here.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you can apply it to everything in your life.
[SPEAKER_00]: So jumping.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the other thing guys is To your point about Cheryl walking the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Same thing with my giant 150 pound rhino gorilla dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: If he wants to drag somebody, he will.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's no stopping him.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's stronger than most humans, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So if I can touch a button, so let's say you physically correct the dog with your prom collar or your leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: And you are physically trying to stop an animal that may be stronger than you or has more has more leverage than you, whatever.
[SPEAKER_00]: You can, you can't really get stronger in that moment, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not like you say, honey, the level up here.
[SPEAKER_00]: I need to get stronger and you eat spinach like pop-up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he's, he's not as big as you're 60 pounds.
[SPEAKER_01]: and, you know, he's very strong.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's all muscle, but, you know, I still strong, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, still striking control him, you know, in that moment, as long as I'm not taking completely unaware, is the what he's doing, but, you know, that's keeping him under control and actually training him not to do it again is a different thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good.
[SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I don't think Cheryl didn't actually control him when he's
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, so yeah, if I wrap my entire body around my point is guys is if you can touch a button and turn a knob and get instantly stronger and instantly be able to reach your dog at a point where they're they're reachable right you got to meet him where they're at we had a dog recently if you guys go on my YouTube channel We had a dog that came in that was unbelievably reactive spit chaotic spending dangerously biting the leash redirecting and the owner
[SPEAKER_04]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: The black one.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.
[SPEAKER_00]: The owner.
[SPEAKER_00]: Same thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Getting dragged around literally, you know, she's trying to catch herself from fall in the dogs freaking out, blah, blah, blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then what I did is I just, I use the remote collar to say, hey, instead of you physically trying to battle this animal that is actively trying to pull you down to the ground and do certain things.
[SPEAKER_00]: Then you just hit this button and it was a complete game changer for her and the dog and We were able to to really break through in a way that they've never been able to.
[SPEAKER_04]: So I'm just saying
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it was a special video, a special dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, anyway, that would be my recommendation as well as, like, understand that you're going to be able to use the remote collar to communicate with your dog in ways that you never have before with a push of a button instead of taking all your strength and feeling like you have, it's the same thing it does for off leash work, guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: The dog is off leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: There are a hundred yards away from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: You say come, they say no.
[SPEAKER_00]: What are you going to do?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're pretty much a helpless at that point, but the remote caller using that technology gives you the ability to communicate from a distance.
[SPEAKER_00]: As any technology has done for us as a human race as well.
[SPEAKER_04]: So, do you think that we can train him on the remote caller without like formal training?
[SPEAKER_04]: I mean,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's all at your comfort and understanding.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a couple of ways to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: The best way in my opinion if you're going to try to do it yourself is at least get my e-collar course, which walks you through the entire process of teaching the remote collar from start to finish.
[SPEAKER_00]: So...
[SPEAKER_00]: if you're considering doing it on your own and you have the time that would be something to to yeah yeah I mean the the other alternative would be just to you know go in somewhere and and have somebody introduce it with you yeah yeah
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, do we know what to buy on the remote gone?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think it's on this website.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Tom Davis courses.com and it'll go through and if you just go to Amazon and type in like Tom Davis remote collar, I have my own remote collar with my friends over at Doctrine.
[SPEAKER_00]: that's the one you can kind of pair those two together and that would be my recommendation if you're going to do it at home but I think right now again like when you guys go on your walks I would again just for the jumping in things get to a larger area where you can safely control the dog he starts to bark and react you say leave it you correct the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we can sure you pop the collar.
[SPEAKER_00]: Don't don't have the collar already half way up and just about and then and then start doing the park.
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yep, start doing that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's the same thing for leash reactivity guys.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to give you before we take off.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to give you an exercise to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, you're objective when you're out with him, because he's not, I call it some dogs like, you know, really aggressive, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not a malicious dog who wants to eat everybody blah blah blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's not.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's just in reactive dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: He's so he's stimulated.
[SPEAKER_00]: He may be
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, uh, he may be frustrated.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of, there's a lot of reasons why dogs can, can get like this, but what I want you guys to start doing is, excuse me, start to, uh, do what I call a, a reactivity dismantlement, which is pretty pretty basic, pretty straightforward, and I'll walk it through it.
[SPEAKER_00]: So he's on your left side, or your right side, it depends, where you're at, but you're on the left side, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: So what you would do is you would say, are to heal, you're out for a walk.
[SPEAKER_00]: you want to do the calibration first, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: A calibration is simple.
[SPEAKER_00]: What you're going to do is you're going to turn back and go the other way and you're going to tell the dog to heal or come or whatever you want to say, you need an audible thing that comes out of your mouth to say, hey, I'm turning your basically indicating I'm going this way.
[SPEAKER_00]: And once you turn and go the other way, and most scenarios, dogs will just keep going because they're disengaged with the dog and they're not on the same page, that's why most people get to where they get to is because they don't have a healthy relationship.
[SPEAKER_00]: you turn, you say article or come or let's go whatever and you turn he's going to go one way you're going to go the other way and you're going to pop the collar before he gets to the end the leash.
[SPEAKER_00]: The reason is is if he gets to the end of the leash he's already applying tension to the collar and you're going to be in the same boat you're already in and
[SPEAKER_00]: And you're just going to be pulling the dog along and there's not going to be any communication that's going to be effective the other thing is is making sure that the dog understands that they need to pay attention to you so many dog owners when they go out do not engage with their owners they don't look at their owners.
[SPEAKER_00]: They just go out and then people who like my dog reacts.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm like there's there's there's a lot of other things going on in your life with your dog The reactivity is actually a product of all the things that I see on the surface of disengagement and and the dog ignoring you Yeah, I don't think he's I think he does engage.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's me.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he looks at me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Perfect.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's you know, and I think if if we see the dog coming for example, and we execute a you turn
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, he's gonna do the U-turn.
[SPEAKER_01]: He may look back a couple of times to see what happens to that dog, you know, they still behind us.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's happening back there, but You know, I don't think it's I don't think we're gonna be in different pages there.
[SPEAKER_01]: Assuming we execute that U-turn far enough away from where the dog is.
[SPEAKER_01]: If we get very close to the dog, then probably all is lost at that point.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: Now into what's happening with the other dog.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's gonna be reactive and that's the problem.
[SPEAKER_00]: That's right, that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this two-nop that you're gonna be doing, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: It would be, all it is is, hey, pay attention to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Pay attention to me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna go this way, I'm gonna go that way.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna go this way and it's just a way for you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Any dog owner can do this and it's a way for you to be able to tell if your dog is engaged and paying attention to you, full stop, that's it, okay?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think we can do that and I think it'll be okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think he will pay attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: Good, no, do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: distractions.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a smart dog who, you know, pays attention to what you're telling him.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, I mean, just to give an example, if we have a yard big fence around it, you know, I throw the ball.
[SPEAKER_01]: He runs the other end of the yard.
[SPEAKER_01]: gets the ball, I yell, come.
[SPEAKER_01]: He brings the ball back to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: We do that five or six times until he's getting tired and, you know, he pays attention.
[SPEAKER_01]: Although, I guess I should also say, if he sees a squirrel halfway through or deer on the other side of the fence, then, you know, all bets are off and he's gonna, you know, check out that deer because that's pretty interesting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you know he yeah, he does follow the commands.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, good.
[SPEAKER_00]: So so when you're out with him that's won't that's one step out of Manning okay, and then there's also an inside turn so when you're out with your dog on a walk you Take your like if the dog is on your left side you take your left leg and you turn inside and you go the other way
[SPEAKER_00]: There's an outside turn.
[SPEAKER_00]: Same thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: You just go back with that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I remember.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do that because again, people come new all the time and they say, hey, my dog doesn't listen.
[SPEAKER_00]: My dog's reacted blah blah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I say, hey, walk around in the room.
[SPEAKER_00]: And your dog is just completely off in the other world.
[SPEAKER_00]: So do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other thing is is just again, making sure that you're clear with your dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you go out.
[SPEAKER_00]: You got your treat pouch to dogs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just hey, I want that.
[SPEAKER_00]: You say, okay, great.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're going to get it as long as you do the things that I want you to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what you would do is you just stand there the dog reacts to a jogger.
[SPEAKER_00]: Leave it pop the dog stops barking Yes, good leave it.
[SPEAKER_00]: You pay the dog.
[SPEAKER_00]: You make it very black and white.
[SPEAKER_00]: What's appropriate and what isn't appropriate behavior and you work through these things So the only way you're really going to get better is if you kind of face your fears and you put the dog into these scenarios To get better instead of you know hiding in running away Yeah
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's what I would start off with.
[SPEAKER_00]: All right.
[SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_04]: I think we I think your idea is a good one.
[SPEAKER_04]: There's a big part where we're going in South Carolina where there are kids playing basketball and dogs and joggers and I think we can get far enough away so that we don't have to worry about and actually hurting somebody, but we could practice.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's right.
[SPEAKER_00]: You want to you want to be able to practice and because it what a lot of people do guys is They have a situation where they go out with the dog and they say hey my dog's reactive But they're only working on the reactivity for 10 seconds, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Because your adrenaline's gone the dog's reacting.
[SPEAKER_00]: You're just trying to get out of the dog as soon as possible and you don't have an actual opportunity
[SPEAKER_00]: to work on the thing you're trying to change, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: You're basically just avoiding and running away, which is a nice thing to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's a safe thing to do.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's nothing wrong with it, but it's definitely not gonna help you get any better.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would suggest, yeah, really working through these scenarios to see how you can help the dog and take that information.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it's like the more that you go to, sorry, my kids are in here laughing and, and, sorry about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Basically what happens is is that you go out and you work with the dog several times So you guys have good information to work off because again I'm assuming you know like you said earlier you see a dog you kind of oh boy here it comes That's what car can we get behind?
[SPEAKER_00]: What are we going to do now?
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we going to go the other way?
[SPEAKER_00]: And again, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's just, it doesn't give you a, it doesn't give you any data.
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you can't really, oh, what worked, what didn't work.
[SPEAKER_00]: So I would get into situations where you can safely approach these distractions, bikes, runners, other dogs, maybe in a park or something.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then.
[SPEAKER_00]: Figure out and really audit what is working for you so that way you can okay that works.
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's do this again So just do that as well instead of just holy crap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: That was a you know that was a A crazy 30 seconds what happened because you can't you got nothing you like I don't even know what happened It's not you need data.
[SPEAKER_00]: You need data All right.
[SPEAKER_01]: This is helpful because of some good ideas Thank you Back in touch.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay Good luck
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, good luck guys, thank you.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, bye bye.