Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep24 - Puppy Play Groups: Benefits and Realities

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I'm Jane Messineo
Lindquist, and this is a Puppy Culture

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potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,
we bring the conversation.

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This week's conversation

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is the result of a post that I made

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in response to something that was said

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by Jean Donaldson
when I interviewed her a few weeks ago.

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So let me play this little clip
from that interview

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first.

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The other thing I would just add,
what if they're hunting for puppy classes

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to find puppy classes
that allow free play?

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That's a mystery. Perfectly important.

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There was a trend a couple of years ago
where just somebody in a,

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you know, kind of clickbait
fashion were trying to say, you know

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what, in puppy classes
we should be teaching puppies to calm

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and do down stays and lie down
and be calm and control, you know?

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Yeah. Yeah.

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Rather than engaging in species,
normal interact actions

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and learning to become social.

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And I think that luckily
that fad has passed and it flies

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in the face of everything we know
about sensitive periods and socialization.

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So I would I would caution people away
from puppy classes that the free play

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is somehow dangerous.

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Who teaches dogs to be excited or teachers
don't sleep over, socialize, etc.

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There's just no such thing.

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I mean that that is dangerous malpractice.

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Interesting.

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I have not seen that,
but that's a good point.

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So as a result of that

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interview
I wrote into the Puppy Culture Discussion

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group on Facebook,
and this is what I said.

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I just interviewed Jean Donaldson
for a podcast and it came up that

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it's a thing now for some puppy classes
not to allow puppy playtime.

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I guess the thought is that puppies
should be paying attention and learning

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to be controlled, not learning
that other dogs are fun and good.

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I do not agree with this
and would not recommend a class

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for young puppies
that does not include playtime.

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But some points.

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Number one, as I mentioned in the

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Be Your Puppies Advocate booklet,
group play should be only for puppies

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under 12 weeks old,
possibly a bit older for neotenous breeds.

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Puppies
older than that should play only in pairs

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and the pairs should be
selected for compatibility.

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There's little

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risk of real aggression
with puppies under 12 weeks old,

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but that changes rapidly as the puppies
exit the critical socialization period.

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As Dr.

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Brite talks about in Puppy Culture,
one of the big benefits

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of a puppy play and learn class
is that the puppy learns transitions.

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Now we do this, now we do that.

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We ramp up and play.

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We ramp down and relax.

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Dr. Brite talks
about how it's these transitions

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that can get adult dogs into trouble
and how important it is

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to shape the ability to transition
between different modes

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while the puppies are still very young
and malleable.

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Number three,
no one ever returned a dog to a breeder

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or shelter
because the dog liked other dogs too much.

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But dogs get returned or relinquished

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all the time because of dog aggression.

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So absolutely find a puppy class
that includes puppy

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playtime for puppies under 12 weeks old.

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Play in pairs for older puppies.

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So. Wow.

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Did I get some amazing feedback from this?

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And a lot of people really took me down
pretty hard about saying

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that I wouldn't recommend a puppy class
that didn't have puppy play.

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I'm just going to cut to the chase here
and say

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I do think everything I said is right.

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And every person that told me

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why they didn't think puppy play
classes were good.

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I'm going to go through them
and tell you why I think they're wrong.

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But the reality is,

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what this opened my eyes to is that

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it's almost impossible

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to find a good puppy play and learn.

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So my focus

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maybe is going to switch
from encouraging people

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to find a good puppy play and learn to

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educating people on how to set up
their own good play sessions.

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So that's the

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‘too long didn't
read’ version of this podcast.

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Now let's go through these
amazing comments that everybody made.

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I'm not going to read

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verbatim this comment
because some version of it

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was made several times
and it was show breeders that said

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they do not want to take their puppies
to puppy class

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and teach them to play with other puppies
because they need them to focus on them.

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And they felt that taking puppies

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to puppy class teaches them to be hyper

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interested in other dogs
and not ignore them.

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And this is the easiest comment
for me to address,

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because this is the one that I'm going
to say I don't agree with you on this.

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For my breed,

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that can be a bit mistrustful

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of novel breeds, it's super important
for them to have experiences

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and good experiences
with a variety of different breeds.

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They're really not a breed
that's just going to ignore.

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They're not neutral on this either.

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They're going to it's going to be in their
book as okay or not okay.

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And as I mention

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in all my educational materials,

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space, space,
they need space and the freedom

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to control the temperature
of their interactions.

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So my dogs really do learn a lot

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by going to good play groups.

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There, there is no comparison.

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The puppies that I have not been able
to take to play groups

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and the puppies that I have been able
to take to play groups.

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Much better result
when I can take them to play groups.

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Now, obviously I show my dogs,
so at the same time

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that I'm taking them to puppy class,

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I'm taking them to show handling class.

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And not only do I think

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handling class is great for my puppies,

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I think anybody would do well to start

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with handling class with their puppy,

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especially anyone that wants to do
any kind of dog sport or performance.

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Teaching the dog

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just to stand at a lineup of other dogs
and ignore other dogs.

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Priceless.

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But the two things being in a playgroup

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and learning to ignore
other dogs are not mutually exclusive.

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To me, saying that

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you're not going to let your puppy play
with other puppies

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because you're afraid that your puppy
will have too much interest

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in the other puppies
and not pay attention in the show ring

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is the equivalent of saying,
I'm not going to teach my show dog to sit

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because then he won't stack in the show
ring.

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It's just not true.

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And in fact,
if anything, the opposite is true,

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at least in my experience.

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The benefits that my puppies pick up

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from having play experiences
with a variety of breeds

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is priceless and translates into them
being more comfortable in the dog

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show ring

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and having less of that sort of forbidden
fruit thing about the other dogs.

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It's like, Yeah,
I know these dogs. I've played with them.

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They've assimilated already
what other dogs are through

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good play groups and they get the context

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that this is where we just
stand here and pay attention.

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If my puppies don't get that

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early experience
and I, I definitely have had puppies

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that have not had that early experience
either because I bought them

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from someone else
or it was during pandemic.

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And it's just such a long slog
up, a steep hill

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to get them to pay attention
because they're there's

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so much emotional overload
from just this “Woah, what are all these

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other dogs?” So I just I just don't agree.

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I think that it makes better show dogs
when they understand

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other dogs and they've played with them.

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Now, all that having been said, for sure,

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there's got to be
some training involved here.

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And it goes down to that same question
of some people say, well,

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you should never teacher show dog to sit
because then they'll sit in the ring.

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And sure, that's true if you're really not
going to train them to stand.

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Okay, well, here's another

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woman that has an interesting comment.

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This is always an interesting discussion.

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I do puppy play groups professionally,
but for my own dogs I do not.

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They are a dog aggression prone breed,
but I do not have any trouble

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with them at all in the many sports venues
that we compete in.

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In fact, because of their being prone
to dog aggression as well as reactivity,

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and because they are sport and show dogs,
I teach them from puppy hood

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that dogs must be tolerated and ignored,

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not interacted with in general.

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I find the incessant need to have puppies
and dogs in general

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involved in playgroups and dog parks
so interesting

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and often very counterproductive due
to the fact that dogs raised like this

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and constantly brought around other dogs
to play often

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have very little interest in their humans
and are way too dog focused

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and often develop
reactivity due to frustration at not

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being able to run
and play with every single dog they meet.

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However, obviously you are

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talking about well-structured playgroups

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and using them to teach impulse control
and how to switch on and off, etc.

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This is great
and how I run my groups as well.

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And I am definitely not saying puppy
play groups are wrong

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and that you shouldn't let your dog play
with other dogs in general.

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But I don't find puppy
play groups necessary

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and I definitely think when handled badly,

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playgroups can do more harm than good.

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Okay,

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fair enough.

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But we have to differentiate

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between a playgroup for puppies
under 12 weeks old where they're learning

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appropriate,
conspecific play with a variety of breeds

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and the incessant need for stimulation

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that some dogs develop
because of the dog park nation?

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Meaning to say owners
feeling that constant

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stimulation, daycare, out all the time,
playing with as many dogs as possible

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and we're talking about adult dogs
that somehow that's beneficial

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and in

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99.9% of those situations,
those are also people

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who are not going to attend a class
where they shape a tension, teach

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modulation, ramping up, ramping down.

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The people aren't interested in that.

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They just want to see their dogs play.

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But, you know,
the fact that some people use

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play between dogs and stimulation

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to a fault and inappropriately -
inappropriate

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playgroups, inappropriate amounts of play,
inappropriate

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lack of training,

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in no way diminishes the immense

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value of puppy play groups for puppies
between eight and 12 weeks old.

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I mean, the two just it's apples
and oranges.

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They have nothing to do with each other.

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Okay.

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Apropos of the need to teach ramping up

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and ramping down and transitions, here's
another one.

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Here's another comment.

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So I have mixed feelings
with my experience.

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The puppy playtime was solely
for the purpose of interrupting,

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then returning to play in order
to teach the puppies to be tolerant

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with interruption,
and that it did not mean the end of fun.

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It was not for the purpose of interacting,

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behaviors between playing puppies
were observed and discussed.

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This is me interjecting here.

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Sounds like a great class, right? Perfect.

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But what could go wrong?

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Well, let's read on.

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It was simply too short of time.

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It was also late in the evening,
so the session overall was brief

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because of over tiring
and overstimulation.

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However, my dog struggled in those moments

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when she did get confident
and was having fun, the other puppy

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owner was slow to grab hold on their dog,

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like just not taking initiative.

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Even the instructors having to be the ones
to grab, things happened

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like other dogs jumping on her head
because I had control, but they didn't.

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That's a dangerous scenario.

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It would shut her down significantly.

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She would be proactive
and go up and nip the chins of other dogs

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even when they weren't
coming close to her.

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As she got older, I discovered
that she needed a lot of time to acclimate

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to another dog, though when she's tired,
she communicates,

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and if she's lying down,
she'll still go up to the other dog

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if they're within a large bubble
and nip the chin to get them away.

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Okay.

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Me again, it's such an important lesson.

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It's such an important lesson
to engage, disengage, pay attention

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to the owner, play, come back, call off.

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But in execution, unfortunately,
it's really hard to get it right.

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00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:06,800
I get it.

245
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,240
I get it
that it can go really bad in real life.

246
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:17,200
Okay, so a lot of people wrote in

247
00:15:18,240 --> 00:15:21,840
responding to my comment
that no dog ever got relinquished

248
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:26,760
for being too friendly
and said, indeed, they do.

249
00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,160
Here's one.

250
00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:30,640
I like your points, but my dog loves

251
00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,600
people and other dogs
so much that it's taking a lot of work.

252
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:36,880
He's excessively friendly.

253
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:41,720
Another commenter says,
We have had dogs relinquished

254
00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:45,960
because they like other dogs too much,
unfortunately.

255
00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:50,000
Over friendly Labradors
dragging owners to greet other dogs,

256
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,280
refusing to recall jumping on people,

257
00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:57,160
injuring people either, knocking them over
or pulling them off their feet.

258
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,440
Frustration, barking because they can't
greet the other dogs across the road.

259
00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:04,600
I do agree with everything else
you've said.

260
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,200
I just think it's important
to allow those relinquished

261
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,680
friendly dogs to be recognized.

262
00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,320
And then someone responded, I agree.

263
00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,680
I think dogs that are encouraged

264
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,920
to be hyper external can get frustrated
when they can't visit who they want,

265
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,520
when they want, and in some cases
that turns into reactivity.

266
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,080
Dogs get surrendered for various forms

267
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,400
of reactivity, often sadly.

268
00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,640
Someone else responded. Agreed.

269
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:41,360
We have a lot of Labs and Goldie's
that are reactive because of frustration.

270
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,360
Once the frustration element is removed,
they are often absolutely fine

271
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,560
with other dogs and people,
but the frustration element

272
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:52,760
is significant.

273
00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:56,680
Well, look, I think there's a
few different things going on

274
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,760
with the various dogs in these comments.

275
00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:04,480
I mean, some is just
the dogs are not trained.

276
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,400
I would bet a lot of money

277
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,920
on two things with in these cases
with this kind of dog, number one,

278
00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:15,840
whatever they're doing,
this is not an issue

279
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,520
where they were taken to four weeks
of puppy

280
00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:24,320
class between eight and 12 weeks old
and allowed to play with puppies.

281
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,160
If it is a hyper arousal situation, it's

282
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:34,040
because they've been flooded
for their entire lives.

283
00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:35,120
Every time they went out,

284
00:17:35,120 --> 00:17:39,960
it was to play, stimulation,
that the owners never trained them

285
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:43,840
otherwise, that the owners never worked on
attention is the mother work.

286
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,400
The owners didn't
go to any kind of other training class

287
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,480
and try and teach the dog
how to walk on leash.

288
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:58,680
And to be fair, I'm not sure that
those posters are saying otherwise.

289
00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,040
In other words,
there was some negligence in the home

290
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:05,880
that these puppies came from
that created this behavior

291
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:10,920
and it wasn't going to a puppy class
and having playtime.

292
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,240
But their point is

293
00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:16,360
that there is such a thing as a dog
that is quote unquote too friendly.

294
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:20,240
But I don't think that reflects in any way

295
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:25,640
on the advisability of a puppy playgroup
for puppies under 12 weeks old, because

296
00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:28,360
there is no way

297
00:18:28,360 --> 00:18:31,720
that whatever behavior
they're seeing here was created

298
00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,880
because these dogs went to a playgroup
under 12 weeks old.

299
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:41,120
It's similar to what I said about the show
dogs like it's not that

300
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,120
you absolutely
don't want to ever let the dog

301
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,840
see other dogs and learn
that other dogs are good,

302
00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,720
and that's somehow going to keep them
from pulling people around.

303
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,800
I mean, I think whether those dogs played
with other dogs or not,

304
00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:58,320
they probably would

305
00:18:58,320 --> 00:18:59,360
still be that way.

306
00:18:59,360 --> 00:19:01,920
It's a training it's a training issue.

307
00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:05,920
It's not it's not really a problem
with the dog being too friendly.

308
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,880
It's a problem with the dog
just not being trained.

309
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:13,800
And I also have to say
that I have definitely bred dogs

310
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:21,240
that were hyper focused on other dogs,
but in every case where that was,

311
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:26,040
so it was a dog
that I placed in an only dog home.

312
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,800
So go figure.

313
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,760
When dogs really don't get a lot of chance
to interact with other dogs,

314
00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,320
they sometimes can be
hyper focused on other dogs and agreed

315
00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:41,080
they can get frustrated
and sometimes it can look like reactivity

316
00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:45,640
when really the dog is just starved
for conspecific interaction.

317
00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,200
I don't pretend to have all the answers
to those problems

318
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,360
for the shelter
dogs, for the people that wrote in.

319
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,600
But I think it would be
a really interesting experiment

320
00:20:00,120 --> 00:20:05,080
to try giving those dogs a companion
to play with on a more regular basis

321
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,840
and see if that didn't
improve the situation with the dog being

322
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:14,040
hyper focused on other dogs.

323
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,360
I'm going to kind of summarize

324
00:20:16,360 --> 00:20:19,240
the other comments
because there was a lot of them

325
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,320
and they all kind of fell in certain
categories.

326
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,440
There was maybe 25% of the people
that wrote in thanking me

327
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:32,040
for saying this
because they still do puppy play classes

328
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:36,160
and they were thanking me for getting out
how important it

329
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:40,080
is for puppies to play. But

330
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:42,240
another, let's say,

331
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,400
50% of the people that wrote in
had just horror stories

332
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:53,000
of having been to a puppy class
that was poorly managed, understaffed.

333
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:58,440
A lot of instructors wrote in that
they have trouble with puppy playtime,

334
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:03,280
putting them together because so many vets
are still recommending that puppies

335
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:08,920
not be allowed to go to play class at all
until they've had all their vaccines.

336
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:11,080
Absolutely not true.

337
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:12,920
UC Davis study.

338
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,560
If they have one vaccine once they're over
eight weeks

339
00:21:16,560 --> 00:21:20,640
old, statistically they are protected.

340
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,320
They can go to puppy class
in a safe environment of a puppy class.

341
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,920
I wouldn't take them to a dog park
or rest area

342
00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:31,800
refresher recollection
with the socialization versus vaccination

343
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,880
and puppy culture.

344
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:35,880
All that being said,

345
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:39,520
unfortunately,
there still is in the veterinary community

346
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:44,800
a subset of vets that are just way
behind the times and still recommend that

347
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:49,600
puppies not be socialized until they have
their entire series of vaccinations.

348
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,520
That creates problems
both because now you've got older puppies

349
00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:57,480
trying to be socialized
once the window is really closed

350
00:21:58,040 --> 00:22:01,280
and because it makes it hard
to put classes together

351
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,360
because you just
you don't have the puppies to put in them.

352
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,360
A lot of people also

353
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,200
we're talking about situations
where inappropriate puppies

354
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:15,520
were put together, puppies that were over
12 weeks old, which I definitely limit

355
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:21,200
my recommendation for puppy play groups
to puppies under 12 weeks old.

356
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,400
So, you know, if you wrote in
and you said you took your puppy to class

357
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,440
and there was a six month old puppy
that jumped on it or you took your year

358
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,880
old puppy to a class
and it got in some bad situation,

359
00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:37,800
I mean, that wasn't the right thing
for you to be doing to start out with.

360
00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:41,040
Puppy
play groups are for very young puppies.

361
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:43,880
But, you know,

362
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:47,240
as I was reading all of these responses

363
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:51,440
and in my mind saying, well, no,
that's not well, that's not right,

364
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,880
well of course not, if that, well,
no and na,

365
00:22:54,920 --> 00:23:00,000
ah, I started having the realization

366
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:04,040
that there's a bigger problem
going on here.

367
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:07,800
And I think this response

368
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,360
encapsulates the whole thing;

369
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,440
I think that it is nearly impossible
for most trainers

370
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,880
to create the experience
you are proposing here.

371
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:23,440
We are still, still

372
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,400
running up against vets
recommending that puppies

373
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,720
do not start socializing until they have
more vaccinations on board.

374
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,840
There are also plenty of puppy owners

375
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,360
who don't even get their puppies
until around 10 to 12 weeks old.

376
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,760
There's also still
a veterinarian shortage,

377
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,840
and many puppy owners
have to wait 1 to 2 weeks

378
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,400
to get their puppy in
for their first appointment.

379
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,280
I personally will not take a puppy
for training

380
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,360
if they have not been seen by ‘their’ vet.

381
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,360
A vet the owner has a relationship

382
00:23:56,360 --> 00:24:00,240
with not the breeder
or shelter or rescues vet.

383
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,320
So we're already drastically narrowing
down the pool with those factors.

384
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:11,160
Now you need to have, number one,
a safe space to hold the puppy classes.

385
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,120
There are plenty of suitable locations
for adult dog classes

386
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,240
that are not suitable for puppies.

387
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,080
Two, a trainer available
to hold the class who's skilled in off

388
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,640
leash play behavior and new puppy
owner coaching.

389
00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:31,040
Three trainer availability
that overlaps with client availability.

390
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,960
Four a large enough client base of people
geographically close to this trainer

391
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:42,120
and this class location with healthy
puppies between 8 to 12 weeks of age.

392
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:46,280
Five, a registration system
that allows for puppies

393
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,240
in this tiny four week age bracket
to come for only

394
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,440
however many weeks they are
in the critical socialization period.

395
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,120
Whether that is one, two, three or four.

396
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,200
Six, if you've managed all of the above,

397
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,160
you still need to have puppies
that are compatible.

398
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,560
The 12 week
old Great Dane is too large to safely

399
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,960
play with the eight week
old Chihuahua ages be darned.

400
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,440
The ten week old Sheltie that's hiding
under its chair is absolutely useless

401
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,360
to the nine week old Labrador puppy
who wants to learn about dogs.

402
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,080
If you can't offer all of the above,

403
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:28,840
how do you market a puppy class that does
or does not include play?

404
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,760
If you have only two students
and the puppies are incompatible,

405
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,880
you're going to have disappointed
or angry clients.

406
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:40,320
Heck, you can be in that situation
with four or five students.

407
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,760
This is why I pivoted my business model

408
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,440
to a combination of daycare plus training,
which allows me to do

409
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:53,200
small groups, pairs and or matching
with compatible adult dogs.

410
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:58,320
My pool of dogs is large enough
that I can consistently make this work,

411
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:04,560
but I do not fault trainers at all
for running puppy classes with no off

412
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,680
leash play component because in many areas

413
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,880
it's like trying to thread a needle.

414
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,360
Lack of off leash puppy
play is disappointing.

415
00:26:14,360 --> 00:26:17,760
Bad off leash puppy play can be

416
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:22,560
permanently damaging.

417
00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,440
Okay, I'm just going to say
if you have not

418
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:29,240
listened to the three part

419
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,280
series that we started all of our podcasts

420
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:38,800
with called The Wrong Series,
now would be a good time

421
00:26:39,120 --> 00:26:44,280
for you to listen to this
because this is an epic example of

422
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,880
a situation where I got new information

423
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:53,720
that really fundamentally changed
the way that I look at things.

424
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:58,200
As an educator,
what I realized through this

425
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:03,000
is that my focus going forward
is going to be teaching

426
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:06,920
puppy owners how to set up their own
socialization sessions,

427
00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,360
because in reality

428
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,040
it's very rare that you're going to find

429
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:16,360
a really good puppy playgroup
for your puppy.

430
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,600
If you can find that puppy class,
and usually those puppy classes

431
00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:25,960
are going to be in more urban areas
where they just have a supply of puppies.

432
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:27,640
When we went to see Dr.

433
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:33,000
Bright's class, that's right, in Boston,
she has tremendous access

434
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,840
to a number of puppies
and it's through a shelter

435
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,840
where there's a steady supply of puppies
coming through.

436
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,680
They have independent funding.

437
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,840
They're not necessarily
trying to make a business out of this.

438
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,960
So they have a support network

439
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:54,120
that most private trainers
just don't have.

440
00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:56,680
I still disagree

441
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,240
with the concept
that allowing your puppies to play with

442
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:06,560
other puppies is going to somehow
diminish their focus and attention on you.

443
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,040
I still
am very much for setting up play sessions

444
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,200
with appropriate other dogs, but

445
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:20,640
I do realize my eyes are opened
to the fact that it's really the exception

446
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,520
more than the rule
to find a good puppy, play and learn.

447
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:29,320
And puppy
owners really do need more resources

448
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:33,960
for setting up their own play sessions.

449
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:38,640
If you liked this podcast,
you'll love our Puppy owner course

450
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,600
available at www.madcapuniversity.com.

451
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,720
If you're a breeder,
check out our breeder course

452
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:50,400
also available at www.madcapuniversity.com
breeders.

453
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,720
If you want to get your puppy
owners started the right way,

454
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,480
check out our bulk discounts
for multiple copies

455
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,760
of our puppy course
at www.puppyculture.com.

456
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,480
Well that's it for this time.

457
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:04,880
Thanks for listening.

458
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:19,320
Bye bye.