Doping on Brokeback Mountain

00:00:14
Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, and welcome to the Renee Stubs Tennis Podcast. I am Renee Stubbs and we are here in my apartment, and not only in my apartment, but I'm with Caitlin and with Peco. We are back together, y'all. It's reunited, reunited, and it feels good.

00:00:35
Speaker 2: That song every time that happened, No, I do not. It's great. It's our theme song of three of the Charlie's Angels.

00:00:41
Speaker 1: It's been a while since the three of us have been together.

00:00:43
Speaker 2: What they to see you best?

00:00:45
Speaker 1: It's bloody freezing in New York right now, it is. Anyway, we have a lot to talk about. We have a lot to discuss, of course. The news of Eager Ciontech came out a couple of days ago about her testing positive for TMZ. I'm not even gonna try and say.

00:00:58
Speaker 3: It is that the gossip magazine from La.

00:01:02
Speaker 1: That's yes, it is.

00:01:03
Speaker 2: Maybe she's an avid consumer.

00:01:05
Speaker 1: She could be. I'm seeing the type, though, doesn't She's more a type to be reading Tolstoy.

00:01:09
Speaker 2: She's pretty bookish.

00:01:11
Speaker 3: Could I get tested positive for TMZ if I watched TMZ a lot, which I don't do. I'm asking for a friend.

00:01:18
Speaker 1: But in other words, you watch a lot of TMZ. I can see you watching TMZ. You don't watch a lot of TV, but I could see you sitting in front of the TV just once in a while getting some Adam Driver gossip.

00:01:28
Speaker 3: I really like, how was.

00:01:29
Speaker 1: Your Adam Driver We talked about this last time. Oh we did well. I'm getting it a little early on set dementia.

00:01:34
Speaker 2: So Giving Day was the day that I heard the news about EGO because I was at home starting my preparation for my beautiful chateaubriand nice.

00:01:46
Speaker 1: How was it? How did it turn out?

00:01:47
Speaker 2: Actually? I undercooked it this year.

00:01:49
Speaker 3: Oh I would have been better or worse than overcooking.

00:01:53
Speaker 2: It messed up the timing of the serving of everything and we got thrown off by about twenty minutes. So usually I pried myself on a beautifully medium rare. This year was a little rare.

00:02:04
Speaker 3: You just did it French medium rare French.

00:02:06
Speaker 2: It is way better to be Is that does that work for everything?

00:02:09
Speaker 3: Because when, yeah, when you order a pint in France, which is medium, they give it to you rare.

00:02:17
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's funny because in Australia, if you ask for medium rare. It comes medium okay, Like it's just.

00:02:24
Speaker 2: You're like, give it to me, bloody. It is a lump of coll No disk to Argentina. Your country is amazing and beautiful, but your meat is overcooked.

00:02:32
Speaker 3: They do well. They do it on really hot heat, probably right on the I.

00:02:36
Speaker 1: Don't know in Australia, although in certain restaurants now in Australia they get it right the spot on. But if you go to like a Mum pop place, if you go, I'd like, well done, it'll come out of the rock. We don't have outback steakhouse. It's the biggest load of ship. Like when I hear those commercials on out Back Steakhouse, I'm like, first of all, we don't even if you asked in Australia what a bloomin onion is, they go, what.

00:02:59
Speaker 2: Well, you guys should adopt that as a national dish. You're missing out.

00:03:02
Speaker 1: That's so American. It's so American. It's big.

00:03:07
Speaker 3: We are doing a lot of things to not talk about the ways because it's another difficult, complex situation. What it feels like, I mean, it feels like we just talked about it with Janick Sinna. It just feels like we've gone through it and the question is really I mean, it's not the question, it's just a statement from myself. It's a terrible look for tennis. I personally believe EGA's story. I again, like I did with Janick Sinna, I read through all the things, I read through the statement. I personally believe her. Whether you do believe or not is up to everybody, I think individually, but regardless, this is a terrible look for tennis.

00:03:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think a lot of people are probably not going to do the hard work of reading exactly what this compared to Janick Sinner compared to Swa Halap, compared to Jensen Brooksby compared to and so on and so forth, and probably people will have their views reinforced whether they like a player or not, as to whether they want to defend that player or not, which is really too bad because it seems like this is actually another case of the rules and the application of those being just really opaque and confusing for everyone. And I think for me, you know, I'm inclined to believe her. It was great and smart that she had her entire team immediately provide the other medications so they could batch test it and confirm that yes, this was essentially an accidental contamination. But again, the fact that tennis is once again being talked about in a way that is casting any kind of doubt about the veracity of the performance of being aware that you guys, not our current number one women's player but has spent most of the year well.

00:04:49
Speaker 1: She basically a lost number on ranking because she didn't get to defend her points in Asia as well.

00:04:53
Speaker 2: Ironically, but yeah, like people at the top of the game being in the headlines for the wrong reasons, it is just not a great tennis advertise advertisement. And I wish, you know, I have a lot of things to say about what I want the tennis world to do, but it's not Yeah, you don't want to spend you want to spend the end of the year talking about things that we love this year, things that we want to see next year, best tournament experience, where we recommend people who listen to this show go and experience tennis, you know, maybe for the first time, or maybe a Slam that they haven't been to before. And instead it's like, you know, we're all of a sudden experts on doping. You have to like herse scientific yes, exactly, panels of testing, or talk about another governing body with acronyms that might have a political agenda, you know.

00:05:36
Speaker 3: So it's just like I'm waiting for my biological chemist degree soon after this year.

00:05:43
Speaker 2: The three of us, you're probably the most likely to get up.

00:05:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, that should be your next that should be your next sub steck.

00:05:50
Speaker 3: And it's so weird, you know, it's not easy to come up with a subject matter every single Friday, espect.

00:05:56
Speaker 1: One now and now.

00:05:57
Speaker 3: I took a break because I was like, oh, the season's over. I'm going to take a break until you United Cup and then this happens.

00:06:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, are you going to do something.

00:06:04
Speaker 3: I'm waiting until this season. I'm going to come back on.

00:06:06
Speaker 1: Well, I think you should do something and right about it, because you'll do the research. But I think one of the things, look, let's talk about it. I think there's so many arguments going back and forth. One of them is, oh, it's preferential treatment. Just like with Janick Sinner, he's getting preferential treatment as a number one player in the world, and eager Sheiontek is getting preferential treatment because her ranking. And look, some of it might be true in the fact that they both have money, and they both have lawyers, and they both have a team to be able to get behind them to get to the bottom of it really quickly, as opposed to other things. I think the difference with Simona Hallep same thing, plenty of money, plenty of resources. I think the issue and the difference is that it took her a long time to figure out where the contamination was coming from. That is part of the problem for her. And then also she had quite a large amount of whatever the stuff was roxied that that was in her system, and then there was a discrepancy with ThePort and or biological passport, et cetera, et cetera. I think that got squashed, I think at some point.

00:07:05
Speaker 3: But I think because there was so much, it was a hot mesk, it was a hot it was chaos, and that's why it wasn't easily resolved, and that's why it took so long for her. And understand that she feels hurt and then she feels maltreated in a way. But I do think that and I think if these cases have taught us nothing but to look at each and every single one.

00:07:27
Speaker 1: And independently, Yeah, yes. And you know, look with Sinner, immediately his trainer and physio were able to pinpoint, you know, the suspect issue with the spray with the finger, et cetera, et cetera. Now, whether you believe it or him or them or not is not the issue. The issue is a lot of people have a problem because they feel like because he was number one in the world, he got preferential treatment. No, it was because immediately they were able to figure out where it came from. Now, if it's bullshit or not, it's still the facts are. You have a certain amount of time to figure it out.

00:07:58
Speaker 3: Right then, I think important just for this, just to underline your point. When these jurors get the case.

00:08:06
Speaker 1: Rural juror yea, they don't have their name.

00:08:08
Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's just important to reiterate over and over again.

00:08:12
Speaker 2: Because where it is the sample of a player, they could just be any player. That is a good that is a good reminder.

00:08:20
Speaker 1: You're a number there. You have a number on top of that bottle and it's like one, two eight, five, five, five six, whatever, and that's it. And you get given a piece of paper when you do your test, they give you the copy of it and you take it away, you know what your number is, you know, all of that sort of stuff. And they have two batches and they test two batches. That's why with the thing with Yannick, it's like, well it was twice? Is it? Was it twice? Or is it the two batches, because we all know there's two batches that get left. There's sample A and sample B, and they're from the same p that comes out of you that day, and.

00:08:49
Speaker 3: They do that just to explain it. They do that to ensure that not one of the samples got contaminated while the test was being performed, because that can happen too. Right, you're on a toilet in a random club house. The officer, the doping officer or agent is standing with you in the stall. You're peeing into it. Who knows maybe somebody cleaned to toilet with a certain disinfectant and the batch can be contaminated or why they are sealing it off. So that's why they split the samples and they send it to the two different laboratories. Laboratories. Is that the right thing?

00:09:22
Speaker 1: That's laboratories.

00:09:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, but laboratory is great.

00:09:27
Speaker 3: And that's so just this is these are all details that we take for granted, but I think they are important in these cases when something happens, to just know why this is performed this way, to ensure on all fronts that it's really the p that is contaminated and not the cup or the whatever, the doping agent's gloves, whatever it will be. Yeah.

00:09:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, So let me just situate us in the timeframe of we're now talking four days, five days after the announcement that IgA had a batch of melatonin that seemed to contain a banded substance that was now identified. Her band has already been issued and served.

00:10:10
Speaker 1: No, she's serving it now. She's serving she's serving the second part of it now.

00:10:15
Speaker 2: But I guess my point is that administratively is handled and now when she comes back, that will be in the past behind her. And I'm questioning because I actually don't know what the answer to this is. Yannick Cinner is now back in the conversation because Wada has now appealed the decision to dismiss or or essentially count the band that he had been imposed.

00:10:42
Speaker 3: They are welling to differentiate. Yeah, just so they are basically Vada. In the case of Fianik, they are reevaluating the So they do not think that he was at fault and doping. But what they are trying to re evaluate whether his behavior was negligent or not. Yes, because the ii A ruled it was not his fault because it was the physio who was was using the thing, who was using the spray. It was not him. It's not the same as an egos. That's why she had to have a band or with Simona, where they took something, they did take it personally, it was just contaminated. But with Yannick, he didn't actually take anything.

00:11:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, he didn't know.

00:11:21
Speaker 3: It was his physio. And now the VADA is trying to discern, sorry, is trying to discern whether Yanick is responsible for his team and the people he hires, or whether they can rule no fault. That's the thing that they are trying to decide. I think you and I should know that. I think you are still responsible for your team.

00:11:42
Speaker 1: So that's probably why they've gone after exactly, and I have a feeling that what are going to make an example. I think they will ban him after this strowne open just to make a point.

00:11:50
Speaker 2: But I want to get the point, just to finish the point that they would be making is that you have to be even moreous about what you or any member your team are consuming using on you having around you. And for those uninitiated the fact that there are two bodies governing this, that I is the problem t A and I T I A I T I A and water who are not necessarily seeing eye on this is adding another complication.

00:12:20
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's adding it and it's something. Why are there actually there are actually three?

00:12:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, there is the National Anti Doping Agency, the NADA, the World Anti Doping Agency which is the WADA, and then the IT T A A which is the basically for tennis players antidoping agency. And every single sport has an own, not every single sport, but bigger.

00:12:43
Speaker 1: Sports, the Olympic sports. So basically, look as when tennis became an Olympic sport again, all of a sudden, we went under our national our NADA, basically our national drug administration. So as an Olympian, as an Australian, on the look, someone ranked one thousand is not going to be being to buy their national drug association, right so in Australia, in Germany, in Poland, if you're a tennis player and you're in the top X like top ten for example, you are you are on the list of a possible entrant into the Olympics. Therefore you must be under the national drug testing system as well, so you are under national drug testing. So some people would come to my house when I was playing and they were like, oh, there's the Australian Drug Olympic Drug Committee. They're not WADA, and they're not they're not it tennis.

00:13:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, they used to be called IF now it's ITAA. But when I still played, they would come. So they have to show you their badges when they test you, and they're like, we are from the WADA or the NADA. And I had did you have two people over?

00:13:44
Speaker 2: And they're like, oh, excuse me, everyone, the International Sheriffs of Urine are at my front door.

00:13:49
Speaker 3: So I had two days. It didn't happen a lot. I had sixteen years of my career, but two times, both the ITF and the NA they were in front of my house at the exactly the same time and they were basically fighting over who will get the sample. Yeah, this happened to me twice, and to Angie because she was ranked much higher. So they so just as a as a rule of thumb. In Germany, they are really strict with testing. And when I was top twenty player, whether it was top ten or top twenty, but when I was in the best twenty players in the world, they would test me four times a month out of competition, and then on top of that would come to IF and the WADA testing. Angie, who was a top five player for a very long time, she had it happened many more times that all three of the agency at the at her door at the same time, or two of the agencies at the same time, because the higher you are ranked, the more you get tested.

00:14:40
Speaker 2: Basically that which makes sense to me. It's just it's a little bit computing to eger I E.

00:14:45
Speaker 1: Yannick.

00:14:46
Speaker 2: Sure.

00:14:47
Speaker 3: So I think just to maybe explain this is my theory. This is very important for me to say, this is my theory. Why do we have more of these positive tests? I think there are three things coming together. Testing has gotten better, Yes, I think tennis has optimized itself so much that all these players are taking every single medication that can make them somehow better, whether that is vitamins, electrolytes, proteins, or thailenol, melatonin, whatever it is that is allowed and that you can use to optimize your body because it has become so professionalized. I think that's part of it. And the funding in an Olympic year is always higher for these agencies test tests more than they usually would, and I think that's why we had the increase in numbers of these positive tests. But regardless, this is a terrible look. I can't reiterate it enough. It's a terrible fucking look that we have two number ones in the world in the same year tested positive for dopia.

00:15:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, listen, it is a terrible look. Here's the thing. Apparently the test that that EGA came up with, it was like a grain of salt dropped into an Olympic sized pool. Is the how small all the contamination was, So think about that for a second. Take a piece of salt, drop it in an Olympic pool. It's like nothing. So that lends itself certainly to being a contamination of a batch. Where where these melotonin pillows have come from? And apparently she's been taking them for years for a sleep and we both know her. She's a nervous nelly like we can't even imagine her taking something of a substance, of a positive it's gonna put her in a positive substance. Because she's so nervous about everything. She'd be like, are you sure I'm allowed to take this? I mean that's the thing about Simona. I mean, you know, you know that was the one thing Darren said. He's like, she would ask what is in this? What is that? But then when she started working with Patrick, it's like it seems like she wasn't as diligent, diligent with her own independence. It was like she gave the independence of herself and her choices.

00:16:51
Speaker 3: To Patrick the responsibility, yes, and that's to just make choices on her.

00:16:56
Speaker 1: She said that. He said that, whereas Darren was always like she was so on top of it with the Romanian guy that was with her and Darren and everyone, she'd be like, are you sure this is okay? And it seems to me that she gave up way too much of her own power. I think that's where she got fucked when it came to working with Patrick and his team, is that she sort of gave over her independence of what am I taking, what am I doing, what am I training regiment to him. And you know, he has come out. Eventually took him forever to say it's on me because this is my team that I brought in. So why anyone would want to work with him anymore, I don't know, because that to me is such a such a bad look. But with Eager, I just feel like you said it already. The testing has gotten so good, and I think over the last couple of days, WADA has basically come out and said we need to be a little bit better of if it comes back so minusculey, how are we going to handle this going forward because that is such a bad look for the player, and you know they've already admitted essentially you know here it is in the batch, the same batch, say numbers the whole thing. There was definitely TMZ in this batch. And apparently where they do the melatonin these pills come from, they do also sell TMZ. So you can see how easily could possibly get contaminated so minutely in a bottle of melatonin. It's almost like, wa, it needs to come up with it if it is a certain amount, we don't even make it public because again, this is just ruining a player's reputation.

00:18:25
Speaker 3: I will say I think Eager handled it the best of all players with her video speaking right down the barrel in her language where she feels most comfortable with the translation, of course in subtitles. But I was really moved by Ardita because you could see the distress also the relief that it's over in her mind, and just explaining right down the barrel as if she was looking into your eyes. I thought that was really powerful from her, and I have to say she really gained my respect and appreciation that she did that, because I think that's really hard.

00:19:02
Speaker 2: I think you and I both it's a lot of poise for early.

00:19:06
Speaker 1: Twenty one.

00:19:08
Speaker 2: It's something very serious that you know, do you essentially get called into the principal's office. That's a bad It's going to be.

00:19:15
Speaker 1: Interesting to see how she comes out of it, too, because knowing her pretty well, you know her reasonably enough, you know, I think that you know she's the type of person that is quite panicked on the court and plays with fear and all that sort of stuff, sort of how you talked about Rafa. It'll be interesting to see how she reacts now knowing that you know tennis is. It's a joy for her, but it's also very stressful. It'll be interesting to see how she handles it going forward, because it might give her a bit of a lease on her tennis to be like, oh God, I'm so happy I'm playing. You know, I actually really do appreciate being on the court now as opposed to God, I could have had a band of a year or two or eighteen months or whatever it was if they hadn't found it or figured it out. But also I just really think that, you know, I hope Wada does look at this and say how much is too much and how much is not enough to be able to make it public Because to me, with this particular situation, maybe even with the Annik, it's like it was so minuscule. How what are we going to do going forward to not ruin a player's reputation? You know? Now with Simona now we've have situations like the British player that got banned as well Tara Moore, and apparently she's sort of it was a very similar situation. And she also was able to find where it was coming from. I think it was the meat in Argentina.

00:20:33
Speaker 2: Or where and she got a log wasn't well done enough.

00:20:37
Speaker 1: It was not well done enough. But how she said she feels like it was very similar, but she didn't have the money to be able to lawyers. And yes, that is a problem, but that's where a player's association needs to be a part of this.

00:20:48
Speaker 3: I think this is where we all look at keithlin Yees texting, I'm.

00:20:51
Speaker 2: Trying to move back a meeting so we can talk about this a little longer.

00:20:54
Speaker 1: For me, the.

00:20:56
Speaker 2: I have so many questions about, like what is the purpose of anti doping in a sport where we have players getting supplements and working with teams from all countries, where certain standards, certain things are purchasable over the counter, Like none of this is very intuitive. None of this seems to make a ton of sense to me. And I think whether or not you agree that we should have a clean sport, which I think most people agree, I'm actually the outlier who doesn't really care candidly about doping because I feel like tennis is so hard and unlike a sport, like you know, this is the gulf. This is the part where everyone gets mad at me, which I'm fine with. If you're taking steroids, for example, like something that is meant to make you bigger, and you're playing on the offensive line of a professional football team, and you can take off the other person's head. Yeah, that's a danger to you.

00:21:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, but no, you can't have it in Tennessee because if you're taking shit, that's allowing you to be on the court for three hours and not be as tight as me.

00:21:52
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that we are catching people who are doing that with blood doping and various things. So for me, the notion of having a clean sport is I don't know. I'm a little bit cynical that it's possible to get that. Said, if we all agree that we're going to test and make the protocols that we have in place function, then it seems like something definitely needs to change, both in terms of the sensitivity the tests, which are clearly more sophisticated that they need to be with regards to who what they are actually intending to catch, and then also just the transparency of the system. I think a lot of the issues that people have with this is that there are three different bodies seemingly in conflict with each other or at times in conflict with each other, And.

00:22:37
Speaker 1: There's also the length of It's also the problem with a lot of people are having is the length of suspension. There's certain things and not certain things.

00:22:44
Speaker 2: Does seem a little bit arbitrary. I also happen to know, and I'm sure you guys, but.

00:22:49
Speaker 1: Is it auditary because it does.

00:22:51
Speaker 2: Seem to be arbitrary. It seems like sometimes people need to want to be made an example out of and sometimes people are totally you know, accepting of the place or excuse. I would also like to know which players are on If we're going to go down this road and care what people are taking, then I'd like to know exactly what medical exemptions people have for for Yeah, add add there's a lot of grumbling, especially among the men, feeling like the abuse of Rittlin and other ADHD drugs.

00:23:20
Speaker 3: I've never taken it, but maybe you can speak on it. I heard that this is this technically would be the best open you can have in tennis because the.

00:23:28
Speaker 2: Thing that lot for three hours stay focused would take over in a heartbeat. That would actually be helpful.

00:23:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, you don't have to be a professional. You can be an amateur playing matches in your club to know that the things that lose you a match is the thirty seconds you wandered off because you were like, my kids are there.

00:23:46
Speaker 1: Yes, I know, I know one player that's on medication for ADHD.

00:23:50
Speaker 3: Well, if they do have ADHD. On the other hand, if you actually have ADHD, I live with somebody who has ADHD, that is freaking a hard condition to live your life with. And then a professional tennis player, yeah, I mean for anything, because you.

00:24:05
Speaker 1: Could be like standing there and all of a sudden you got bright point and then all of a sudden you start looking around like, oh, he's in the crowd. Oh what no, focus, Like that's not rafa, you know what I mean?

00:24:14
Speaker 2: Knowing that these are not simple conversations, knowing that these are highly emotional for both the fanship obviously the teams who feel like they've been well.

00:24:24
Speaker 1: Have you read some of the shit on Twitter?

00:24:26
Speaker 2: And I don't. I don't currently exist on Twitter anymore good, But also because of the other players seeming to like roll their eyes at the verdicts, who are maybe yeah, for me, what a long. We're not going to fix all these things, not one agency or one person certainly, but I think having a leadership that would be out in front of this, explaining it consistent and having again one sort of unified voice tennis really does need a commissioner. It needs somebody to be the way that the NFL when there's an issue, or FIFA or the IOC. You know, nobody thinks that the.

00:25:00
Speaker 1: IOC Laurel is our corrupt.

00:25:03
Speaker 2: Totally clean organizations. Correct that. I don't think the goal here is reasonable.

00:25:08
Speaker 1: I think I know where they're going. You just want them to all to be like, fucket just let everyone take drugs.

00:25:13
Speaker 3: Honestly, no now, listening to Kitin, I think she's gonna know.

00:25:16
Speaker 1: But then it comes down to money, I guess, but right.

00:25:19
Speaker 3: That's true. True, But I honestly you kind of convinced me because.

00:25:22
Speaker 1: Someone one hundred in the world kind of for the best chemist. But someone like you know that's true.

00:25:27
Speaker 3: But then if all top one hundred players took adderall or ritalin, then at least the player think.

00:25:32
Speaker 2: About how the quality of the tennis would be. I don't think whether or not my crazy thought experiments are correct. I think a long way towards gaining trust among the athletes, among the fanship, and among the stakeholders would just be to have a person to be like, yeah, I'll take your questions. Here's why we're doing this. I admit it's not perfect. Here's what we're trying to achieve, here's what we're going with these goals.

00:25:56
Speaker 3: So instead of us basically having to read seventeen different sources to try and gather what the thing is about, you mean, there should be one person that explains exactly what is the difference.

00:26:09
Speaker 2: To achieve this, the reason that Yanik is different from palap is different than than Ega is this, and just have essentially what we're trying to create exactly to your point right now, which is a reasonable conversation among reasonable people. There was also, and this is sort of just very true, a woman, Eliza West, who we sometimes do content with, was sort of saying, what if what if Tennis had one big pharmacy? What if the tours pulled their resources?

00:26:34
Speaker 1: Well, the women do women have had you Sana, and they're still using pharmacy that works.

00:26:40
Speaker 2: All of the supplements and all of the things that the athletes took were just from this one pharmacy. If there's a bad batch and it got it got spine.

00:26:48
Speaker 1: That's what happens with the women they have you Sana. And if you get caught with a positive test with anything from the Yusana package, they give you like a million dollars, like they're putting their money where their mouth is.

00:26:58
Speaker 2: And I guess what if we had a store where they all could go and be like, well, I was I only take the melotone and then the tour gave me. So if there's something wrong with the melotone, and it's because the what if you did something like that where it was like, Okay, we're gonna still create a list of band and approved substances, but they all come from the same source, so we don't have to be like, oh, I guess I'll buy two of everything just in case I get batch tested. Like it just seems like we're putting a lot on these athletes.

00:27:21
Speaker 1: As I was saying, there is the WTA have you Sauna, and there are supplements that they do give to the players and everyone collects them at the physicals.

00:27:29
Speaker 3: But that's just supplements. So Caitlin is arguing.

00:27:33
Speaker 1: Or Eliza, everyone everything.

00:27:35
Speaker 3: Well and there should be medication as well. So if you have a headache before you go on the match, instead of taking title noll.

00:27:40
Speaker 4: You go to the WTA and ye take here's my muscle relaxing, like exactly WTTA and all, and also think about the amazing like they've become essentially a pharma company and they probably make a lot more money.

00:27:51
Speaker 2: But I also think, like you know, we're talking about the WTA here, well, you'd have to convince them to try to be business people and try to figure out how to make more money. But I think you maybe could hold their arms and get them there. But I think, like you know, in the NBA, in the NHL, in other leagues, it's like you have the team doctor, you have the team resources. What if we could start to try to kind of replicate that where it's like, oh, Tennis has you know, essentially an online pharmacy with pre vetted vendors and whatever you want. Also that would let people know, like, hey, Renee has a cold shoulder this year, so she's taking muscle relax and for this it's been approved and it's on the list, and it's just she's getting it from this and we know about it. Right if you wanted to.

00:28:30
Speaker 3: Play there, because then if you go outside, that didn't even have to be So it doesn't even have to be It doesn't even have to be a full pharma company. It could just be a digital marketplace where they collect everything.

00:28:43
Speaker 2: Up and up, so you're if you're and then if you're caught with something else, then it's.

00:28:48
Speaker 3: Like that's you, and then you have to be banned no matter who and what you are and what happens.

00:28:53
Speaker 2: Right, It's like if all of a sudden, you know you from store.

00:28:58
Speaker 3: And then you just have like three bands three months six months a year, that is the thing. Is it really like if you do a death? Nick not even he didn't even get caught by doping agencies. He got caught by the customer in Australia.

00:29:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's right. God, I forgot about it, remember this. Yeah, So anyway, I think the bottom line is I think for all of us, we feel like this was absolutely something that was not nefarious. This was a complete and other It's very unlucky. My thing is, and I said this to you Caitlin a couple of times recently as well. I think if you don't have a band and there's it is suspect you're looking into it, if you're WADA or it IA or whatever. Nobody needs to know if they're found to be not negligent and they don't, you know, have a band, we shouldn't know about it because it just ruins their reputation. Now, if they're a banned for two years or a band for six months, yes hell, yes we should find out about it. But I think if you're not going to ban them, obviously she's been given a you know, she couldn't play in Asia, and now she's been given this extra one month in between her last tournament in here, which was kind of everyone's like, well, that's weird in and of itself. I'm like, well, if she's found not, if she's found not their fault. Yeah, I mean we shouldn't know about it. We talked about this last time with Yea.

00:30:12
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:30:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I just don't feel like we should know about it. I think it just ruins people's reputation.

00:30:18
Speaker 2: Now.

00:30:18
Speaker 1: I'm all for throwing people into the bloody under the bus if they've done it and they've been found at fault and they're the ones that did it, But in this circumstance, I'm like, really, do we really need to know about it now? Forever in a day, everyone's going to say it's because of this, and it's because of that, oh of course, ego.

00:30:33
Speaker 2: I think also like having a having a chair person just takes a lot of the heat off of the players so that it doesn't feel like such a every person for themselves. The tour chairperson, the tenant, the spokespersonal chair of tennis could say like, hey, listen, this is to your point why each of these cases is a little different. Here's what we're trying to do. Here's what we're trying to achieve. You know, we're obviously always on the side of players, but in some cases, you know, if players spend the rules, and here's when we feel like, unequivocally does that.

00:31:03
Speaker 1: How do we feel about these players?

00:31:04
Speaker 2: Like I feel like Igochiantec, who you think I don't like her? I don't not.

00:31:08
Speaker 1: I did not say that, Yes you did. I you've said some contro things I have.

00:31:14
Speaker 2: I compared her to another player who I think was also similarly not We don't need to talk about it. Who I love justin Tenna. But I think for me, the the fact that she in a poised, tiery or sort of a poised, really emotional way has to you know, appeal to people through a video chat. What that's like A that's a bad outcome for her too, Like.

00:31:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course it is terrible.

00:31:35
Speaker 2: You know, I'm aware of how exploitive playing professional sports is, especially one that makes players feel like they're as alone as tennis players probably feel they have to be their own pharmacists. They have to be their own you know, head of human resources, making their own coaching decisions, making their own paying further, and she's kids are kids, and like she's facing a very very serious allegation that she handled really beautifully and with poise. But should she have to?

00:32:04
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. But I hype that WATT is being serious about looking into If it is so minuscule, do that test. They should have just done that test. Oh yeah, here it is. It's it's a fucking grain of salt in a you know, fifty made a swimming pool. We don't need to put this.

00:32:19
Speaker 2: TOURS should come out of this, in my view, saying we no longer recognize or want to work with this organization unless the threshold for noting is x yder C. When I was in college tennis, I had a school test, we had a conference test, and we had an NC double a test. So hearing you guys explain the three levels, all of a sudden made sense to me because of course the nc double A test was the hardest, was the most stringent, and was the one that came the most by surprise. And it made sense to me because as an NCUBA athlete receiving a free scholarship for college, they were entitled to know how we were behaving and whether we were taking you know, supplements or not. So it was I understood it. But again, to what end are we doing this? And how how is this.

00:33:01
Speaker 1: How help for?

00:33:03
Speaker 2: How is it helpful?

00:33:04
Speaker 3: I think the biggest difference here is and there is no getting around it unless we change tennis the sport from the ground up is that in every other sport you are more an employee than a self employed person. Tennis is probably the only sport where you are strictly the sea. Well us to but that's not a sport, that's a game.

00:33:28
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, I agree with you.

00:33:31
Speaker 5: We just shed on a little other sport. We just shed on a little other sport.

00:33:56
Speaker 3: But you know what I mean, just started making more arguments accept golf as a sport.

00:34:05
Speaker 1: No, we all agree.

00:34:06
Speaker 3: It's usually it's me, but it's like maybe the only sport where you're the CEO of your own company and as you just rightly put Caitlin, you have to hire all the people and make sure that you're clean and all the while, playing tennis and trying to become.

00:34:20
Speaker 2: Tennis is so hard, so hard, and it's like one of the so many things that these people are.

00:34:25
Speaker 1: He is already paranoid about everything going on in her life. She looks like she's panicked about everything at all times. You think she's gonna be pet go And I'm like, you can't even imagine someone like Eager doing something illegal, because she'd be just on the court. You could tell in the first point she'd be like, do they all know? Do they all know? Oh? My god, Like I'm a great layer. Like there's just no way. She's like the last person to have done something like that, because you could just see in her life she'd be like, Oh, they all know, they all know.

00:34:52
Speaker 2: This happened to me two days ago. I took an accidental accidental, well, I took it on purpose, but I thank you, dosed my self with a recovery gummy. That was a pre performance.

00:35:04
Speaker 1: Okay, but hold on, you just said it. You took a recovery gummy prior to playing tennis.

00:35:09
Speaker 2: It was it was a preect.

00:35:11
Speaker 1: Can I ask you before she finishes the story if you say something, I.

00:35:15
Speaker 2: Would have already a recovery an interview.

00:35:17
Speaker 3: If you go to a.

00:35:18
Speaker 1: Recovery something, what does that mean?

00:35:20
Speaker 3: Say no to drugs. That's all I have to say.

00:35:23
Speaker 1: So you took a recovery gummy before you played.

00:35:25
Speaker 2: I have misspoke. It was a performance gummy that helps with recovery.

00:35:30
Speaker 1: So it is meaning it's for recovery.

00:35:33
Speaker 2: You're supposed to take it beforehand so that your recovery is easier.

00:35:37
Speaker 1: What it is called is THHC.

00:35:39
Speaker 2: It was spiked with THHC and that was the feature, not the bug. It was supposed to be. And I had a terrible hour of panic attack on the tennis cart.

00:35:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, because you were high. It was scary. You were high.

00:35:53
Speaker 2: I realized the core emotions of each of my strokes.

00:35:55
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:35:56
Speaker 1: So in other words, what you're saying, I want to recommend it weed is not to performance in Hanser, not in the least, because you've done it all, You've done meldonium, You've done this.

00:36:05
Speaker 2: You tried to be said was awesome.

00:36:08
Speaker 1: Yeah.

00:36:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I cannot recommend it enough.

00:36:12
Speaker 1: Because unless you're playing professional tennis, do not take it.

00:36:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, don't take it if you're being administrated. In my own defense, I asked the USTA, I said, I am taking a performance enhancing drugs. I'm planning to do this. Do you guys have any rules against this? And they said no, we think this is stupid, but it is not against the rules.

00:36:31
Speaker 3: Did they say stupid?

00:36:32
Speaker 1: Totally?

00:36:32
Speaker 2: I told the the USDA officials. I told my fellow teammates people I would be competing against. I'm going to have an edge, and they're like, are you you know? Because they know I've done it, I'm still going to make dumb joys.

00:36:46
Speaker 3: Like I changed the grip of my forehand a week ago. But I also I'm taking meldonia. But one question, if we are going from all in, you're saying let's just allow everything, how about we go all out and say that's not allowed. Let's not allow anything, you.

00:37:03
Speaker 1: Know what I mean, like cold medicine and nothing.

00:37:06
Speaker 3: As long as you're a professional athlete, you're not allowed anything. How would that be shit?

00:37:12
Speaker 1: Terrible? We're basically already like that. Like I remember when I would get a cold, which I still sound like I do because it's been like twelve days, it's like, and why am I not taking something illegal? But anyway, it's like you were so paranoid to take anything. You're like, Okay, a title, No, I guess I can take maybe cold and flu. No, I can't take that. It's got a pseudo effortrine in it. You're like a fucking not.

00:37:33
Speaker 3: It was not you want to hear the best story ever. Okay, it's not the best story ever. I shouldn't have started it like that. But so to your point, the no spray, how do you the afron?

00:37:45
Speaker 1: Is that how you like an affron?

00:37:46
Speaker 3: Yeah? So nasal sprays and most of them, I think ninety nine percent of them have fatiments, yes, and fetaments in them. So they are all on the band substance list. And so while I was playing for sixteen years, I had never take and no nasal spray in my entire life basically. And I had COVID while I was still playing, and my sister gave me her badge of medication because she had had it before me. Two weeks dryer covid. Yeah, And there was like and it was while I was still playing, and there was a bunch of things that I was allowed to take, but there was also a nasal spray a spray, and I just put it to the side and didn't take it because you know, I was still playing tennis. A year later, I retire from tennis. I get it cold. I take my medication out and I see this the spray, and I'm like, oh, now I can't take it. I'm gonna put it and I couldn't breathe. I shoot it up my nose and I'm like on the floor, dying, crying, sneezing for an hour. I was like, oh my god, this is what people do, sprays that fucking intense. It did clear up my sinus, of course did an hour later. I look at it. It was a spray for your throat.

00:38:55
Speaker 1: Oh no, you.

00:38:58
Speaker 2: Use the wrong spray, and.

00:39:01
Speaker 3: It was a spray for your throat to kill bacteria in your throat. Then I shut it up my brain like a dumbda. So in case I make it, don't make sense. This is why I don't make sense, because I probably burned half of my brain with this throat spray.

00:39:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you even taste or smell? I think if you did know nothing nothing allowed. And you sent everyone to like the Amish country, to like train in the off season. I mean I could see a really cool reality show there where it's like who who is really the strongest, Who is really the most mentally tough, Who is really like the best immune system? Yes, you know, who's gonna make it in.

00:39:39
Speaker 1: Taking antium trees nothing for an injury?

00:39:42
Speaker 3: Well, I'm just would make if you make if you make an argument for why don't we allow everything? Because everyone is doing, you know, based on the money and resources.

00:39:50
Speaker 1: I mean Sam Stars was taking amobic every day for her shoulder and ship. You know, like if you have.

00:39:56
Speaker 3: A bad shoulder, you don't belong in tennis.

00:39:58
Speaker 2: There you go, Wow, so you to have the survival of the fittest tennis or you have completely bio hacked like the android g.

00:40:08
Speaker 1: Because that's all about money again, like if you're rich, you can afford the best.

00:40:11
Speaker 3: So then nothing allowed.

00:40:13
Speaker 1: Talking hyperbole, No, I think the thing that we need to move I think we're going to finish this drug conversation in saying how.

00:40:19
Speaker 2: Are we going to finish it?

00:40:20
Speaker 1: That there is absolutely no doubt that I think you're right, Caitlin in the fact that there should be a spokesperson that knows this insides and outsides of every single.

00:40:29
Speaker 3: Ten add on that, And I also think that the agency should work together because clearly.

00:40:34
Speaker 1: I was getting I think we need to figure out tennis. The hierarchy of tennis needs to figure out how the fuck we need to get them all together, because it's clear that they all hate each other and they all think they're the best. So some somewhere along the line, with the IOC and with the w T AN, A t P and every other sporting you know, Federation, the US soccer team or whatever, everyone needs to get under the same umbrella and saying how, what is what the level, what are the stipulations, and what's going to come out publicly? They all need to be on the same page because ruining a player's career is not okay in my opinion, and but letting people get away with shit is not okay as well. So everyone needs to be back more on the on the on the same page, and Tennis needs to have some kind of a commissioner that can handle this better than they are, because right now it's a fucking disgrace the way they're all getting handled all these cases in so many ways, and I feel sorry for the players that get done for not doing something nefarious. And I feel sorry for the players, certainly the ones that have had had a big band. I meant Jensen Brooksby, we weren't going to really talk much more. But you know he missed three tests. That's not great, that's not great. You know I missed two one time. One was completely like, oh my god, I forgot to change my whereabouts And that can happen. The same thing happened to Emo, same thing happened with him. So there has to be certain things that we look at where we can do it better. It's so hard, just so everyone knows, every single player has to account for every single day and they have to stipulate an hour of every single day where they are. Now, you ask yourself, do your plans change sometimes? Do you take a trip overnight that you didn't expect to take and then you fucking forgot to change reform that happens. So there are all kinds of things. There's it, I a there's wada, there's nada, there's so many different things. Something has to be done to make this better for everybody, everybody.

00:42:25
Speaker 3: I will say one thing that I think tennis players should not do is I know many of them who let their agents change their whereabouts for them. And I think that's the yeah that.

00:42:35
Speaker 1: Was you can supposedly share a pover's issue.

00:42:38
Speaker 3: That's the worst thing you can do because if you decide, I mean just that take.

00:42:41
Speaker 2: Sounds like it was a very monos issue, which is if you let somebody else, whether it's the agent of the coach handle your business, than that business and that's also subject to fault.

00:42:51
Speaker 1: And Caitlin that's also why she had a hard time figuring out she didn't really know whereas Immediately Ego was like, here's all of the stuff, here's my supplements here it all test it now. And they were like, oh, it's in your melatonin and she's like, oh okay, well he is the rest of the batch of my melatonin and they tested that and it's like, oh, it's all contented.

00:43:13
Speaker 2: Actually, think in the era of consolidation, which I think we all need to embrace, which I think is needs to happen sooner rather than later, it can't be seven governing bodies. It can't be three different doping agencies. It can't be tours and players and stakeholders in term and older all on opposite sides. Of things. I think there needs to be good luck. A no, but good luck. I mean, the things change overnight, like people can decide, okay, we're going to majority own three quarters of the tennis ecosystem, and then all of a sudden that forces consolidation. Right like it happens in corporate America, it happens all over the world. And I think a real players union that was actually the players advocating on their own behalf would be amazing to see, and this, to me, would be one of the obvious things that they would want to change and say, hey, listen, this is what we're currently doing, this is what we want, this is actually what's going to enable us to have a better experience as professional athletes. It feels fair to everybody. And then if something happens, the protocol has been approved by a majority of players because their own union approved it and they know what the rules are, and then they don't feel like this person is getting away with something. That person is cheating in some way that I can't quite pinpoint but I feel strongly about. And the DEMA standards aren't.

00:44:20
Speaker 3: I mean, I say, the only problem with that is that players don't read their emails. Because I remember when they were complaining how all the top is trades during COVID in Australia when there was a quarantine. Why do they have a bicycle, why do they have a treadmill? And we don't. We got an email where you could send a request the things you need in your hotel room for the time that you have to quarantine. They did and they didn't read it and didn't request it, and then they didn't have obviously, just the treadmill sitting in the high Grant high to send to your room when you got to So that's the same thing. Tennis players are also dumb, like you can see with Chappova, Love and Curios. They don't read the thing. They just opine on the internet.

00:45:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, He's like, what.

00:45:00
Speaker 3: Are you the society?

00:45:04
Speaker 1: I don't understand why these guys. There's no doubt they read a headline and then they just go, oh, one month he wrote one month. What it's like, did you even bother to look at it? Like what it said, what the reasoning behind it was. I mean, I don't understand these players that come out and do this publicly on x and the social media saying this ship. It's like what are you doing, like you know, you don't want to wish it upon anyone you didn't be like, I hope it doesn't happen to you, bro, because if it happens to you, you know who's coming after you. Everyone.

00:45:34
Speaker 2: I feel like, having been in the headlines for some pretty bad reasons at the beginning of his career, has benefited from an imagery rehabilitation. So he of our people who actually should not be casting.

00:45:42
Speaker 1: Anything, of all peoples, old people, most people do.

00:45:46
Speaker 2: Not take out an umpire, granted by mistake.

00:45:48
Speaker 1: Same with Nick Curios and the ship that he's done on the court.

00:45:50
Speaker 2: Come on, man, it's like, yeah, we could use spokespeople who are you know, a little bit more last house, you know, throwing stones.

00:45:58
Speaker 1: Throw Andrea pekovicin there. Yeah, me too, because she's commission that's a commissioner.

00:46:03
Speaker 3: No, yes, I'd be.

00:46:05
Speaker 2: So good at it, you would.

00:46:06
Speaker 1: Be, okay, So everyone out there, right to the WTN a TP and tell them the commissioner of tennis or.

00:46:12
Speaker 2: Just the people with all the money and they can do it all.

00:46:15
Speaker 1: Right, Let's get off the subject.

00:46:17
Speaker 2: Let's talk about something pastis, Let's.

00:46:18
Speaker 1: Talk about something positive. What a podcast is over.

00:46:21
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty five. You guys are going to be traveling down in Australia.

00:46:24
Speaker 1: Who's your PIXI Straight and Open? Now, Oh, I don't know.

00:46:27
Speaker 3: I don't want to. I just have two players that are because I was not because I don't want to pick Austria and Open champions, because I have two players that I really look forward to the season twenty twenty five. And on the men's side, it's Ben Shelton. I think he will mature and I think he will be a real contender to take up favorites in major tournaments. And I'm excited because I think he's very talented. But this year I commented a lot of his matches in the beginning of the year and they drove me insane. I'm making a massive.

00:46:56
Speaker 1: Definitely not your type of player.

00:46:58
Speaker 3: No, because there was zero structures, zero brain, zero anything. But I felt like at the end of the.

00:47:04
Speaker 1: See you were all structure and too much brain.

00:47:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly, So he was like he was driving me insane. But at the end of the season, I really think I saw a development. So that's why I'm very excited for his tennis.

00:47:16
Speaker 2: And I heard you talking about it on our podcast. Last week with the Davis Cup. What is it that you saw in his mindset? Did you see him constructing points more? It wasn't just a huge serve and then.

00:47:26
Speaker 3: What Yeah, So I think what he did really what made him really dangerous when he was playing well before he got a bit more structure in it is also what made him the dumbest player ever. Where he the moment it was tight, he would just go bigger. He would go like two serfs, one hundred and sixty miles per hour. He would play serve and valet or like chip and charge on the first serve and things like this. Because he has balls, it has to be said, he's crazy, huh, but in a great way. And if he can just get a bit more structure, those balls that he had will get him very far in tennis because unfortunately, you need that. And on the other hand, I'm very excited for Coco Gofs twenty twenty yeah season, because I really liked what I saw in the end of the year with the coaching change and the freaking grip change in the middle of the season on her surf, I was super impressed. She has massive balls too, so those that random that they are both American and I didn't plan on this because that's what America.

00:48:25
Speaker 2: Needs, is more success attention. Those are good answers I because I also like, I care less about who wins what, although in the time it's exciting because the matchup is exciting usually, but it's more like who am I looking forward to seeing play more? And Coco definitely is not somebody who I typically like all that much, just because I think she's a little more defensive and what I saw with her, especially as Renee noted, if she serves well at the finals, she can win it, and then she did. And the forehand, like, I like seeing her dictate to go along with the great seavents and the great movement she's so I like when players dimensions to their game, and she has certainly done that. And I'm also really excited to see what, like what does Danielle Collins have left?

00:49:08
Speaker 1: First?

00:49:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, I like the fact that she decided to retire after having spent most of the season talking about how she was going to retire to what end.

00:49:17
Speaker 1: I think why she didn't want to talk about it all the time, because remember they're like what is she won't want to talk about it? Maybe even the US Open where she didn't want to do the thing and she walked off the court. I think she already knew.

00:49:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, so if something happened to the flip of switch, maybe she knows something we don't.

00:49:29
Speaker 1: I'm glad. I'm happy.

00:49:31
Speaker 2: No tennis is better with her in it. I'm looking forward to seeing that and uh I cocoa for me, Yeah, same the men. I'm I'm kind of wondering what has happened to players that I like, who who didn't seem to have much of a year, Like I wonder if Seb Corda is for real or if he's going to kind of continue a downward slide. I thought this year was a step backwards, but I like his game.

00:49:55
Speaker 1: I think it was a step sideways. Coming back from injury. He still won a tournament. He had some good wins.

00:50:01
Speaker 3: I think Toronto.

00:50:03
Speaker 1: I don't think he took a backward step good.

00:50:05
Speaker 2: I'm glad to hear you say that because I really like his game. And also the two French guys for me are the ones to watch, like Pica.

00:50:12
Speaker 1: It's so fun you like say that, both of you, don't you.

00:50:15
Speaker 3: Becca Becca Boris Becker. He loves fist. He said he has his eyes on him in twenty twenty five.

00:50:20
Speaker 2: I'm excited to see what he'll do. My favorite Boris says it.

00:50:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, he says his eyes are on and Ben Shelton too, but for him.

00:50:29
Speaker 2: I think both of the French guys for me, are the most exciting. Like I'm curious to see in late stages of slams with five honts how they hold up yeah, and how how they're shot making goes. I mean they're both exciting.

00:50:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I agree on the Coco. It'll be interesting to see how now going out of indoors, because we know that playing indoors helps you, so if you're double folding indoors, you really have a major problem. So I want to see how she can handle that going into the outdoors with the sun, with elements, et cetera. Because I think if she can get a a more consistent kick serve, I think that will be huge and that will take perfect timing right now to work on that, because that's all she needs to work on the serve. The first the forehand is getting better. I can see her that will be okay. Her biggest issue is the surf. If she's double folding, she's hurting herself beyond. So I think she's a real threat at this train open if that's under control. I'm kind of looking forward to seeing what the Rabaquina can do. Yeah, you know, look, we know that she had a very hard year this year in twenty twenty four. There was a lot going on. Certainly there was something more than just injuries going on. There was a lot of other things that she was dealing with, whether it be her coach, whether it be you know, her own issues. So I'm hoping that with Gorn, we're going to see this player come through next year because you and I can all of us can agree that when she is a robust she's arguably the best player in the world. I mean her serve, her backhand, her grounded like she is just she can get anyone off the court. She smoked Sabolenka at the start of the year this year in Brisbane and then you know, we know how dumb she was with that scheduling that she chose to go to Adelaide. That really threw her back because she had the achilles problem and there was a lot of unsuredness to her start to the year. Even though she played great at the start of the year. So I'm looking forward to seeing how emotionally and physically she is in twenty twenty five because she's at at her best. Lookout because she could be the player with no points to defend, certainly not mid through the last part of this year. A lot of points the start, but not at the strain open she lost early to.

00:52:37
Speaker 2: So I really liked the way that she ended the year. I thought she was surprisingly given the rusts like came back and made her.

00:52:44
Speaker 1: Start Saba.

00:52:47
Speaker 2: And yeah, she she got it out. I think some some.

00:52:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she played well in the other matches.

00:52:51
Speaker 2: It was just she you know, and people don't like a step but well because she played and like, yeah, but she only missed a step as opposed to looking like she didn't belong there. And so for me, I was happy with how she ended, which I hope pretends well for the next year.

00:53:03
Speaker 1: I think that's who I'm excited about seeing. And also and she doesn't have the coach that she had last year, and so you know how I feel about that.

00:53:11
Speaker 3: Very excited about you.

00:53:13
Speaker 1: Oh, I love him too. Hope he's doing well. And I'm really looking forward to seeing how much Taylor Fritz can just push that extra envelope of improving his net game and his forward momentum.

00:53:29
Speaker 3: Can he become the more famous Taylor in America?

00:53:32
Speaker 2: No, great question.

00:53:34
Speaker 1: I don't think that's possible. I think Swifties are going to not give him that mantle, But I will say that I just want to see. I think he got a taste for it this year. I think that he got very close to winning his first Grand Slam, and there's you know, I can I can say like when I made my first Grand Slam final, and I know it was only doubles, but it's still the same thing of like, oh, this is the next big step. I think that once you're there, once you go okay. Same Jesspagoula, Let's see where she runs into in twenty twenty five, because it was a bit of an up and down year. I think that he got the taste for it. I know. I think he knows what he has to do to get to that next step, and it'll be interesting to see if he tries to implement it, because moving forward and being better at moving forward is going to help him and he needs that. And if he doesn't he's not gonna beat Alcoraz and he's not gonna beat Sinner when it comes down to it. And one of those guys, just like Roger and Rafa and Novak, they're always going to be there, right.

00:54:27
Speaker 2: I think that's probably the best possible scenario for him, which is he has.

00:54:32
Speaker 3: He has to improve.

00:54:33
Speaker 1: He has to.

00:54:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, like there's a significant step up, and I.

00:54:37
Speaker 1: Think I don't think it's a significant step, but there is definitely a step.

00:54:42
Speaker 3: There is a big difference because I saw all his matches this year. I commented all his mattrees against Sinner, and he just lacks one dimension. Yeah, HiT's hard through the cord. He doesn't play angles, and he doesn't have a difference maker right now, and so he feels so much pressure on his surf to serve well. He goes for too close to the lines, he gets broken early, and he loses the set six four every single time.

00:55:05
Speaker 2: It was a lot of six four sets in that.

00:55:06
Speaker 3: Six four, six three six four. It's always.

00:55:09
Speaker 2: But I also think that's also the cool opportunity.

00:55:11
Speaker 3: I think so too, because he can add something and he has the spirit, he has the spirit of wanting to improve.

00:55:16
Speaker 2: That's why I think the most exciting time where he's right there and he can choose whether or not he wants to add and I think he does.

00:55:22
Speaker 3: I think he wants.

00:55:22
Speaker 6: He's a taste for it and he knows now what he has to do. Yeah, I mean we talked about it last time. He's the player that has convinced me the most this year. Like I was lukewarm on him and was red hot and burning it in a non creepy way.

00:55:36
Speaker 1: Well, somebody people had asked me on you know when I did I think good Morning America or something, and they said, who's the American that you feel like in win a Grand Slam? Because God knows what, We've been talking about it at nausea with the men. The women do it all the time. And I said Ben Shelton. And the reason I said Ben is because he has the game, he has the weapons, and he has the hootspa, the But I actually think Taylor in the last six months has proven to me that he has all of those attributes. It's just it's not so much the HUTSPA With Taylor maybe a little bit subconscious conscious mind need to come together. But for me, if he can just improve slightly his volleys. It will make all the difference because I feel like he's sitting six or seven great shots and he's not implementing the forward movement to finish those points. And against Alcoraz and against Sinner, as I've said many times now, he's not going to win those eight, nine, ten, twelve ball rallies against them under pressure.

00:56:25
Speaker 3: Well, with him, it's not the hutzpah, it's with him. He has the right amount of obsessiveness about tennis. I could see it because I interviewed him in lever A Cup and he's shy, he's not well spoken necessarily, but and that was so interesting. It was like a glimpse into his mind. Anytime I asked him anything about not tennis, he was kind of stuttering looking for words. But the moment I asked him something very strategically about tennis, he was so well spoken, so smart, so insightful that I was like, Oh, this is what he thinks about the whole day, and that that's why he almost changes personality the moment he's outspoken he wants to talk about it.

00:57:06
Speaker 1: I have an interesting story there, because you know, he and I have talked back and forth sometimes on like Instagram and various things. And I did mention to him, you know, I'm always just I'm always sort of pushing him to go forward, you know, with these volleys and things. And then I remember, I think I saw him. I saw him in Cincinnati after they lost the doubles final for the gold medal, him and Tommy Paul against the Ossie guys who clearly can volley very well. And I said something along the lines of about volleying or about whatever, and he said, who needs to volley and doubles? I mean, we just we just want to silver medal or something. But the way he said it made me realize. I was like, oh, you just don't value volleys. You actually don't value that part of tennis. In stipulating while I beat these doubles guys, not even being at the net on the baseline and doubles, I'm like, first of all, you're playing on clay. Second of all, you didn't win the gold And the reason you didn't is because they probably picked on you at the net. Because any good doubles team is going to be like, dude, I'm going right at him at the net. Just be ready for a shitty volley. And then finish it because I don't because I've played against people just like him, you know, but on the women's side. So it's like, I think that he needs to understand that. Yeah, you might not need volleys to win all matches, but I'm telling you right now you need them if you want to win a Slam. And I hope he proves me wrong. I hope he wins a Grand Slam playing from the back of the court and never needing to hit a volley under pressure.

00:58:29
Speaker 2: I don't I want to see him at the net.

00:58:30
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, me too, But I'm just saying, what.

00:58:32
Speaker 3: If you win your stern up and that would be fun.

00:58:34
Speaker 1: If he could move forward, change his grip on his floor in volley.

00:58:38
Speaker 3: I will throw in two more bonus names into the head.

00:58:40
Speaker 2: Bonus name Jack Draper, Jack Draper.

00:58:43
Speaker 1: Mir Andreva and Mi Andre's my other one.

00:58:47
Speaker 3: By her side off season, have time to work on her game.

00:58:50
Speaker 2: She's got so much games, so much.

00:58:53
Speaker 3: She's got more experience.

00:58:54
Speaker 2: Now this year she's got it all.

00:58:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it will be interesting. I think French Open she will have to defend points for the first time, so she will get she will grow into herself as an adults woman even though she's so young, but with the experience she's had.

00:59:08
Speaker 2: I liked seeing her emotional reaction in losing that final to Casecina to Kazakina, because I felt like she was ready to be there, yes, and it didn't feel like she was. It was a young person's reaction, but a young person who I think feels, yeah, who wants it? And I saw that as a and it was a lovely moment because how can I give her a hug? And it was nice and can Sheta you know, everybody loves her. But I also made me think like, oh, she's ready to kind of take it a little bit. And I think, because she's so young but already has all the game, like yeah, she's gonna be Really was.

00:59:39
Speaker 1: My other one outside of that's a good Jolkina was Andrea to see where the next improvement comes in the next twelve months, because I think she's going to be a perennial top ten and how because everything she does is very solid? Everything she does.

00:59:51
Speaker 2: Can I just implore on the Jack Draper note and Visa VI the tailor's I think Jack Draper, I want to see him play tennis and rock really good fits. But also somebody here needs to have a legitimate celebrity girlfriend. And I think it's Jack Taper.

01:00:09
Speaker 3: Who is the celebrity girl friend.

01:00:11
Speaker 6: I don't know.

01:00:12
Speaker 2: I think he needs like a dua lipa or he needs fun, he needs like a he needs somebody seeing how that just came out of your I mean your mouth, random example. But I think he needs like a glamorous I want a real celebrity in the player's box again, you.

01:00:26
Speaker 1: Know what I mean, like a Brookshield spec that like.

01:00:30
Speaker 2: I want Zindia in the way she looks so great at.

01:00:34
Speaker 4: You want her?

01:00:34
Speaker 1: And whose bucks do you want her?

01:00:36
Speaker 2: Jack Draper?

01:00:36
Speaker 1: Oh, Jack Draper.

01:00:37
Speaker 2: She likes British guys. Oh, she's got Tom Holland who seems very nice. No, no slight to him. I want some I want some star power.

01:00:45
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, we're putting that out there.

01:00:47
Speaker 2: Well, yes, actually this is something I would like to crowd source people who listen to the show. It seems like you're actually finding us on Blue Sky, maybe more than you're finding us on Oh yes, it seems like maybe the place to find us. Anyway, Please nominate who you would like good it see in a player's box. It doesn't have to be Jack Draper's any player's box, any gender, any any player, any type of star. But just you know, who would you like to look at when the cameras.

01:01:10
Speaker 3: Pan Adam and Adam Driver and Jack Draper and a gay relationships that broke back? Okay, okay, broke him back Mountain.

01:01:22
Speaker 1: Feel me, I think we have to end. Honestly, I'll bring you two together.

01:01:26
Speaker 2: And this is so we broke back, broke back, broke back. He broke him back, he broke him back. Thanks everybody, anyway.

01:01:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're going to get into maybe next week talking about our favorites for the austral And Open and the season eating up to it and all that sort of stuff. But in the meantime, I hope you enjoyed our Broke Back Mountain edition of Drugs in Tennis.

01:01:52
Speaker 2: Drugs and tennis do them, don't just don't.

01:01:55
Speaker 1: Get don't get Cain drug And now that I've this Petko is gonna want my melotone and then I have downstairs Liquid. It's always a good one. All right bye, everyone, Thanks for joining us.

01:02:06
Speaker 3: Next week.

01:02:06
Speaker 1: Jeez, m hm hm

01:02:15
Speaker 3: Hmmmmm