143 | Q&A Lightning Round #4: 5 Questions From Listeners Answered

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.

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Your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi, I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks, The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get a master class in child-centered,

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play therapy

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and practical support and application for

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your work with children and their families

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in today's episode. Y'all. It's another lightning round.

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I can't keep up with the questions these days. So

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every once in a while I have to just bust out a whole bunch of them. So

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here we are, we're going to do five today. So sit down, put on your seat belts,

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maybe this is a good episode to go exercise to.

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And this is so funny.

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But I've had so many people tell me that they speed me up on when they listen.

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So I was like, gosh, if you put me on like 1.5,

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you probably feel like you need to be on

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a treadmill or something because I talk fast anyway.

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So to speed me up to 1.5,

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I feel like you have to be doing something that requires a

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lot of energy because I'm pretty sure you don't want to be like

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trying to relax and listen to me at 1.5 speed. So

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anyway, thank you all for taking me with you to all the random places that you go and,

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and all the different things that you do with me.

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So I always love hearing all the different

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environments in which you're hearing my voice each week. So

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maybe go run a mile or something when you listen to this one. OK.

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So we're gonna cover five questions from four listeners.

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And I think this is gonna be really helpful by the way, as a note,

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public service announcement, maybe

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if you would love to have access to ask me

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questions on a weekly basis and not have to submit for

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a podcast that you typically have to wait 1 to 2 months for. I'm so sorry for the delay.

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I just, I can't handle all the questions that come in.

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So if you would like access to me and get to ask me questions and have a weekly

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call with me, then you need to join the collective. So go to www.ccptcollective.com.

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You can get a free trial, check it out.

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There's a lot of people in there from all over the world and twice a week,

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you get to be on a call and there's always time for questions and answers.

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So if you feel you would benefit from being able to

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toss ideas around,

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there's a whole community of child-centered practitioners that are

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happy to share their thoughts and experiences and,

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and opinions as well. So, it's been a really cool thing.

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Check out ccptcollective.com if you don't want to

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have to wait for the questions on the episodes.

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All right. So we're gonna talk through Pamela's question.

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Actually, she submitted two.

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So we're gonna do two of hers

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and then we're gonna move on to three other questions. So, here we go.

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All right.

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Pam's question from Texas, by the way, hello to my Texans out there.

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I 

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I'm probably this year heading to Texas for a Rays-Rangers game.

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So I will make you all aware of when I'm heading that way and you know, you,

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you come hang out with me at the Rays game and we'll have so much fun.

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All right. So

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the question from Pam in Texas is number one,

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what happens when a child with whom you're working keeps getting bad?

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That's in quotes from her email,

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bad behavior notes from the teacher

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and how to handle that?

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Oh my gosh, the bane of my existence.

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So let me read you that question and then I'll share some thoughts.

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How do we support parents when they continue to receive teacher notes stating

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quote bad behaviors from their child's teacher who does not see the need for

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or benefit of CCPT techniques, use of the four pillers,

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et cetera to support the child. So let me pause right there and say

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based on Pam's description there, I suspect it's already been offered.

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Hey, it would probably be really helpful if in the classroom,

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you do blah, blah, blah. Right. XYZ.

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And it seems as though the teacher is not interested in the least.

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So I feel like that was a noteworthy piece of this,

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the parent and I both feel that the child is continuously

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being punished instead of using these moments as a teaching tool.

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The teacher seems to believe that the band aid discipline is the

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way to go rather than teaching the child for long term success.

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Thank goodness, the child's parents are on board with CCPT. Yes. Thank God for that.

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I love it when parents are on board

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and doing the best they can to support their child.

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Any ideas,

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suggestions or guidance as to how to move

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forward with this challenge would be appreciated.

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All right. So

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number one, and I think Pam you've probably already done it.

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But number one, in a scenario like that,

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we let the parent know that we are happy to discuss

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everything that's going on with the teacher.

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So this is not us reaching out to the school.

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This is not us reaching out to the teacher as like

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a cold solicitation because that rarely if ever goes well,

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parent is the liaison.

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So we let the parent know we are happy to discuss anything with the teacher

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and we would be happy for them to email,

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introduce us or to put us in contact with each other.

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There are still times when a teacher has no desire to do this,

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even when the parent tries to act as the go between.

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However,

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it's very important that we offer and here's what we want to do in that scenario.

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And we actually have talked about this in

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the collective as well as the coaching program.

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We want to make sure that we are offering support

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and we are offering to help. Not that we're coming in and telling the teacher how to do

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classroom management.

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And trust me, it is hard

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because teachers are not trained in what we are trained in.

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We're not trained in

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curriculum planning,

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right?

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We went to grad school and we didn't learn how to lesson plan for math or science. Ok.

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So likely or likewise, they didn't learn child development,

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they didn't learn mental health information from a child perspective.

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So we're operating from very different wheelhouses. Ok.

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So teachers don't want us to come in and say, well,

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if you would do this and this and this like everything would be better.

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They're not coming in telling us how to do

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how to do our jobs. We should not either.

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So the approach has to be very gentle, very supportive, very helpful

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and just offering. I'm wondering what I might do to support you.

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I'm wondering what you need from me.

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I'm wondering how we could collaborate to better help this child,

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right? So

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that is a very intentional approach that we need to use in a scenario like that.

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OK.

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Next consideration

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when we see

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that the child continues to have issues at school

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and we see resolution of these issues in

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all other environments which Pam didn't say that,

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but I'm just throwing this out there because I suspect that this might be

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more severe at school than it is elsewhere.

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So when we've seen resolution or reduction of behaviors at home,

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when we've seen resolution and reduction of behaviors in the playroom,

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when the child is actually regulated in all of the other environments,

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except at school,

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what do we know?

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What, what can we deduce from that kind of scenario?

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I'm sure you all just yelled at your,

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at your speaker.

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It is that the child has a relational dynamic issue

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at school.

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So there is an environmental struggle

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isolated to school, which likely means it's a relationship based issue.

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So the child doesn't feel understood by the teacher.

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The child doesn't feel accepted by the teacher,

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the child doesn't feel that they can trust the teacher.

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There's a negative vibe between them.

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The child has been pathologized, the child has been branded as the bad kid.

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I'm air quoting that there is no such thing, et

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cetera, et cetera. So

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when we understand

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isolated behavior struggles,

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we then can say,

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well, it's 100% in that environment likely tied to the relationship.

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Here's the catch-22 no teacher wants us to say

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Well,

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we've pretty much decided that you are the single-handed root cause of

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all of this child's problems because this child is lovely everywhere else.

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Ok. That's really not gonna go over well.

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But what we can say is

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we've seen evidence that this child is capable of self control and

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self regulation in all of the other environments for some reason,

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it hasn't carried over to school yet.

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So let's troubleshoot this

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at school. We've seen, I'm sorry, at home, we've seen

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resolution

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in the playroom. We've seen resolution at karate. We've seen resolution.

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We see evidence that the child is capable of

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self control and self regulation and appropriate behavior.

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So the fact that it hasn't been demonstrated at school yet,

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there's a reason let's figure it out

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and then it becomes like a collaborative investigation and they're usually

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a little bit more interested in that than just being told.

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It's their problem, which it is let's be real, right? But we don't say that

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we keep those thoughts to ourselves. Ok. And then finally,

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here is what a teacher should be

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helped with.

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If they are receptive in a scenario like this,

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they really need to recognize

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that the more accepting they are of the child,

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the better the child will be behaved

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and that flies in the face of all academic approach to behavior issues.

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So it is not going to be aligned at all with

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what the teacher does or has been trained to do.

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But the more accepting you are,

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the more you recognize the why

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behind the behavior,

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the more the child will behave in self enhancing ways,

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this is proven empirically supported.

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All right.

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So teacher needs to understand

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that the more grace, the more patience, the more understanding,

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the more acceptance that is extended,

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the better the child's behavior will be.

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Now, how do we support that from outside of the classroom though?

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Mom and dad

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need to be coached on how to set limits

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and provide

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consequence choice giving

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for behaviors at school

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because

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there are still things that need to be

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limit set

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if the child is behaving inappropriately at school.

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So you would help the parents actually understand

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what the limit setting process looks like.

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What choice giving looks like for consequences.

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And that would be a conversation that mom and dad have with the child

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in addition to the teacher, hopefully

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being more loving and accepting and patient and gracious to the child.

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All right. So I hope that is helpful. We all

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always, we all always deal with

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situations with school, with teachers, with notes,

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with staff. It is a tricky balance. So that was a really helpful question, Pam.

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Thank you for that.

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Ok. So then the second question that she sent is about termination. So when do we know

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that the child has truly

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ready to move into the termination phase?

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So let's hear her question and then we'll talk through that a little bit too.

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So she has an eight year old client that was adopted at birth.

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The child knows they're adopted and they look physically

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different from the parents as well as older siblings.

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The child is the youngest by quite a pretty big age range

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and this seems to be a big challenge for the child.

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Even at school,

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the child as a minority seems to be stuck in

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trying to figure out her place in the world.

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But the family is very supportive.

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The child continually tells mom she loves attending

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play therapy and doesn't want to stop.

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But my goal is for the child to progress and eventually come

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to a place where she's ready to complete her therapeutic journey.

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I'm still learning how to notice and work through themes.

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So she has identified power and control aggression, nurturing and good versus bad.

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And then she says, how do we know when the child is ready to move in the termination?

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What if an old theme comes back occasionally?

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Does this mean that the child really did not complete the theme?

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Any idea, suggestions or guidance would be appreciated? All right.

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So

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we've actually talked about the termination process

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quite a bit in the coaching program.

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That's just something that comes up all the time.

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So you're not alone in that pam, I promise this is a pretty consistent question.

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But as a general rule, you want to keep in mind

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that when

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all of the original presenting issues have either improved or resolved.

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That's a really helpful indication that the child doesn't have any more work to do.

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So, whatever came in at intake,

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if those are improved or resolved,

248
00:12:32,049 --> 00:12:36,669
really important indication that child is probably at the end,

249
00:12:37,190 --> 00:12:39,419
we also look for those

250
00:12:39,789 --> 00:12:42,599
issues to be resolved across all environments. So

251
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:45,469
similar to the school and teacher question. Right.

252
00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,210
So we wanna make sure that at school, at home,

253
00:12:48,219 --> 00:12:51,200
in the playroom and wherever else the child goes,

254
00:12:51,219 --> 00:12:54,059
we see resolution across all environments.

255
00:12:54,070 --> 00:12:55,179
It can't just be,

256
00:12:55,429 --> 00:12:58,940
well, he's gotten really good at home, but school is still a nightmare,

257
00:12:58,950 --> 00:13:00,400
then there's still work to do.

258
00:13:00,669 --> 00:13:01,140
Right.

259
00:13:02,130 --> 00:13:03,669
Third consideration,

260
00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:07,789
we want to see calm, steady and stable behavior in the playroom.

261
00:13:08,789 --> 00:13:14,169
So the child comes in and is able to sit to be calm, to be regulated.

262
00:13:14,409 --> 00:13:17,690
The play is stable and steady. It's consistent

263
00:13:18,710 --> 00:13:21,489
behavior in the playroom is also a helpful indication

264
00:13:22,219 --> 00:13:25,109
and no new themes are emerging

265
00:13:25,359 --> 00:13:27,270
when the child comes in week to week.

266
00:13:27,789 --> 00:13:31,960
So we're pretty much just kind of in maintenance mode. Nothing new is emerging.

267
00:13:31,969 --> 00:13:33,760
We're kind of at that

268
00:13:34,010 --> 00:13:36,070
consistency in play.

269
00:13:36,630 --> 00:13:37,919
So those are

270
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:42,030
the considerations for how we know that the child is ready to terminate

271
00:13:42,289 --> 00:13:46,390
as far as if the child goes back to older themes

272
00:13:46,619 --> 00:13:51,239
and we see those repeated toward the end of therapy, that is very, very normal.

273
00:13:51,250 --> 00:13:54,340
We've talked about that in the collective and in the coaching program because

274
00:13:54,669 --> 00:13:56,840
that's a fear that a lot of therapists have.

275
00:13:57,150 --> 00:13:59,880
Oh, no, I haven't seen aggression in so long.

276
00:13:59,890 --> 00:14:03,429
And now out of the blue, this kid's coming in and being completely aggressive again.

277
00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,280
What does that mean? Does that mean that he's regressing?

278
00:14:06,289 --> 00:14:07,859
Does that mean that there's something that happened?

279
00:14:07,869 --> 00:14:10,469
Does that mean that he doesn't feel ready to terminate?

280
00:14:10,929 --> 00:14:11,520
Don't

281
00:14:11,950 --> 00:14:13,919
concern yourself with all of those questions.

282
00:14:14,489 --> 00:14:17,159
It is very normal. It is shown

283
00:14:17,429 --> 00:14:18,390
in data

284
00:14:18,580 --> 00:14:21,219
that a child toward the end will revert

285
00:14:21,229 --> 00:14:25,109
toward more aggressive themes and earlier themes.

286
00:14:25,609 --> 00:14:28,270
And that is a part of the process

287
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:32,479
the way I like to describe it just for the why

288
00:14:32,940 --> 00:14:36,099
they often will revisit older themes

289
00:14:36,299 --> 00:14:39,599
to see if it still serves them in the way that it used to.

290
00:14:40,780 --> 00:14:41,549
So

291
00:14:41,919 --> 00:14:43,820
I used to have to come in here and get all of

292
00:14:43,830 --> 00:14:46,979
this aggression out and I used to have to take all this power

293
00:14:47,570 --> 00:14:48,859
and that made me feel better.

294
00:14:48,989 --> 00:14:49,260
Well,

295
00:14:49,270 --> 00:14:51,479
when they are starting to realize that they're

296
00:14:51,489 --> 00:14:53,619
on the tail end of their therapeutic journey,

297
00:14:54,229 --> 00:14:57,099
they will go back to that to see how it feels

298
00:14:57,570 --> 00:15:00,520
because they're essentially testing. Do I still need this?

299
00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,750
And it's usually short lived, you get little bits and spurts of it.

300
00:15:06,130 --> 00:15:07,210
It'll just kind of bubble up,

301
00:15:07,219 --> 00:15:09,739
be there and then it'll go away again because

302
00:15:09,750 --> 00:15:12,140
they realize a they don't need it anymore.

303
00:15:12,229 --> 00:15:16,500
It doesn't serve them anymore. But b they just wanted to kind of

304
00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:18,739
feel it out and once they do,

305
00:15:18,750 --> 00:15:21,780
then they're kind of right back into the normal play again.

306
00:15:22,469 --> 00:15:23,090
So

307
00:15:23,289 --> 00:15:24,650
that is

308
00:15:24,969 --> 00:15:28,090
the way we recognize a child being ready for termination.

309
00:15:28,099 --> 00:15:30,270
And yes, it's completely normal to see

310
00:15:30,380 --> 00:15:34,609
that same scenario or that same theme re emerging toward the end.

311
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:36,359
All right, Pam from Texas.

312
00:15:36,369 --> 00:15:40,520
Thank you so much for asking those questions and that was really helpful.

313
00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:42,580
All right, we're ready to move on to question number three.

314
00:15:42,590 --> 00:15:44,320
So this one is from Thailand.

315
00:15:44,450 --> 00:15:48,859
Hello to all my Thai friends as a personal anecdote,

316
00:15:50,340 --> 00:15:53,419
our entire family. All three of us love Thai food.

317
00:15:53,909 --> 00:15:58,650
And I have said for years that it's on my list

318
00:15:58,909 --> 00:16:02,710
if I had to make a top 10, where would I want to go in the world list.

319
00:16:02,719 --> 00:16:07,349
Thailand is 100% on my top 10 list. So I hope one day to make it there.

320
00:16:07,359 --> 00:16:09,409
We love the food, we love the people.

321
00:16:09,419 --> 00:16:12,599
Everything about Thailand is just so intriguing to me. So,

322
00:16:12,890 --> 00:16:15,090
so all of my Thai friends, thank you for listening.

323
00:16:15,099 --> 00:16:17,789
Literally on the other half of the world. I'm so excited to have you.

324
00:16:17,979 --> 00:16:20,070
So this is from Bonus, not

325
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:23,419
the actual name, but I was told to call

326
00:16:23,549 --> 00:16:29,200
because the name is really, really long. And I was told, I was told just say Bonus.

327
00:16:29,210 --> 00:16:31,880
So there we go. Bonus from Thailand. Thank you for,

328
00:16:32,119 --> 00:16:34,799
for reaching out and talking about this.

329
00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:36,479
So the question

330
00:16:36,700 --> 00:16:40,640
raised is what do we do when

331
00:16:40,989 --> 00:16:46,479
a child lies, makes up stories steals from the playroom

332
00:16:46,799 --> 00:16:48,830
and is just

333
00:16:49,210 --> 00:16:50,900
very, very

334
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,900
problematically behaving,

335
00:16:53,119 --> 00:16:54,419
stealing money.

336
00:16:55,260 --> 00:16:58,880
There's, there's all kinds of stuff going on. So let me read the,

337
00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,609
the bulk of the email and then we'll talk through it.

338
00:17:02,020 --> 00:17:04,060
So, working with a nine year old girl,

339
00:17:04,069 --> 00:17:07,608
history of domestic violence from a former stepfather,

340
00:17:07,969 --> 00:17:10,479
resides with a new stepfather and mom,

341
00:17:11,439 --> 00:17:15,380
But the child has problematic behaviors at school steals money,

342
00:17:15,579 --> 00:17:19,339
complains about unmet material needs even though

343
00:17:19,469 --> 00:17:22,098
parents affirm that they have financial stability.

344
00:17:22,108 --> 00:17:25,819
So the girl is never satisfied, always once more. That's basically what's going on

345
00:17:26,010 --> 00:17:27,979
also has a tendency to lie.

346
00:17:28,319 --> 00:17:33,060
She tells conflicting stories. Recently, she took miniatures from the playroom

347
00:17:33,319 --> 00:17:36,939
and despite efforts to address this behavior by forming,

348
00:17:36,949 --> 00:17:41,189
informing her that I noticed specific things were missing right after the session.

349
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,380
The latest incident involved her stealing dice.

350
00:17:44,790 --> 00:17:48,339
So I went to her right after and told her that I noticed the dice was missing,

351
00:17:48,349 --> 00:17:51,699
asked her if she'd seen it, she refused and made up stories.

352
00:17:51,785 --> 00:17:53,084
I was certain she was lying.

353
00:17:53,265 --> 00:17:55,535
I requested her to return it if she could

354
00:17:55,694 --> 00:17:57,204
and reminded her about the rules of

355
00:17:57,214 --> 00:17:59,444
the playroom that everything should remain inside.

356
00:17:59,844 --> 00:18:01,675
This has been very challenging for me to

357
00:18:01,685 --> 00:18:04,805
navigate as I'm torn between empathy for her experience

358
00:18:05,145 --> 00:18:07,165
and addressing the disruptive behaviors.

359
00:18:07,175 --> 00:18:10,175
I would appreciate any insights or experiences you'd be willing to share.

360
00:18:10,765 --> 00:18:11,324
All right.

361
00:18:11,555 --> 00:18:16,074
So interestingly, we just watched a video of a child

362
00:18:16,670 --> 00:18:18,319
in the collective call

363
00:18:18,540 --> 00:18:22,000
that was in my playroom that was trying to steal one of the LEGO pieces.

364
00:18:22,239 --> 00:18:23,760
And so two weeks ago,

365
00:18:23,770 --> 00:18:26,260
we just watched a clip of me addressing a

366
00:18:26,270 --> 00:18:28,160
child trying to steal something from the playroom.

367
00:18:28,170 --> 00:18:30,189
Well, not even steal it. Yeah, kind of steal it.

368
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:30,920
Um,

369
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:31,930
you know,

370
00:18:31,939 --> 00:18:37,369
like five year old stealing is like they think that if they just turn their back,

371
00:18:37,390 --> 00:18:39,839
they turn around and so all you can see is their back that like

372
00:18:39,849 --> 00:18:42,579
all of a sudden you don't see them putting something in their pocket.

373
00:18:42,869 --> 00:18:45,979
So like if we consider that trying to steal when

374
00:18:45,989 --> 00:18:48,130
you can literally see them putting it in their pocket,

375
00:18:48,140 --> 00:18:49,750
I, I don't know exactly what we call that.

376
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:50,449
But anyway,

377
00:18:50,739 --> 00:18:52,430
so we just watched that clip.

378
00:18:52,750 --> 00:18:53,410
So Bonus.

379
00:18:53,420 --> 00:18:55,119
Thank you so much for reaching out about this and

380
00:18:55,130 --> 00:18:56,609
this is a really helpful thing to talk about.

381
00:18:57,430 --> 00:18:58,239
So

382
00:18:58,910 --> 00:18:59,500
by the way,

383
00:18:59,510 --> 00:19:02,099
if you would like access to that video and you wanna go in

384
00:19:02,109 --> 00:19:05,069
and see me handling a child trying to take something from the playroom,

385
00:19:05,079 --> 00:19:09,020
join the collective and we save all of the recorded calls.

386
00:19:09,030 --> 00:19:10,930
So you'll be able to go in and watch and listen to that.

387
00:19:10,939 --> 00:19:12,680
But all right, I'll give you my thoughts too.

388
00:19:13,150 --> 00:19:14,790
So we have to figure out the why

389
00:19:15,410 --> 00:19:19,849
before we address this effectively, it doesn't change what we do or say,

390
00:19:19,939 --> 00:19:22,660
but the why matters when we're looking at behaviors, right?

391
00:19:22,709 --> 00:19:28,349
So this girl is lying, she's making up stories, she's stealing things. Why

392
00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:33,030
we, we have to get to the root of what is driving this kind of behavior?

393
00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,790
Well, my gut tells me it can be one of several things.

394
00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,189
I think there's probably a control play here.

395
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:44,229
This is very much, it seems very much like a power and control dynamic.

396
00:19:44,780 --> 00:19:48,300
So this is an opportunity she has to have power.

397
00:19:49,459 --> 00:19:52,500
So if we understand that it's driven by power and control,

398
00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,479
that will help us understand

399
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,010
the behavior in a new light, right?

400
00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,479
Second option is there's an attachment issue here.

401
00:20:01,329 --> 00:20:07,229
So she's probably very poorly attached has very poor attachment to family members,

402
00:20:07,319 --> 00:20:09,229
possibly poor attachment to you.

403
00:20:09,239 --> 00:20:10,290
Bonus because

404
00:20:10,510 --> 00:20:14,189
there's a history of domestic violence and not being able to trust people.

405
00:20:14,250 --> 00:20:17,969
So there's probably some hesitancy from her end toward you as well.

406
00:20:18,489 --> 00:20:21,000
So attachment might be a factor here.

407
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,229
And then another consideration is permanence

408
00:20:24,979 --> 00:20:27,439
and we talked about this when we went through themes, right?

409
00:20:27,530 --> 00:20:31,239
So when a child is trying to work through what is true,

410
00:20:31,349 --> 00:20:36,439
what exists, even if I don't have the evidence of it, they often want to take things,

411
00:20:36,449 --> 00:20:40,599
hide things, bury things, keep things that's a permanence issue.

412
00:20:41,140 --> 00:20:46,449
So all of those, maybe it's a combination of all 3 or more,

413
00:20:46,459 --> 00:20:49,619
but it's important to recognize what is driving

414
00:20:49,630 --> 00:20:51,760
the behavior so that it doesn't just seem

415
00:20:51,770 --> 00:20:54,540
frustrating because we can have more acceptance when

416
00:20:54,550 --> 00:20:56,369
we understand where something is coming from.

417
00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,530
All right. So then how do we handle it?

418
00:20:58,989 --> 00:21:00,000
Here are my thoughts.

419
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:01,319
Number one

420
00:21:01,530 --> 00:21:07,000
in capital letters, not that I'm yelling, but you know, it's important patience.

421
00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:12,329
We have to have so much patience with kids that lie and steal

422
00:21:13,189 --> 00:21:16,010
because there is no way to force them to stop.

423
00:21:16,660 --> 00:21:19,430
It's one of the few things over which they have power.

424
00:21:20,619 --> 00:21:24,689
So if they choose to lie and steal, because it serves them in some way,

425
00:21:24,699 --> 00:21:27,890
they're going to lie and steal and we don't have any way to stop it.

426
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,979
We can set limits, we can give choices, we can enforce those limits.

427
00:21:31,989 --> 00:21:34,560
There's things we can do from a therapeutic standpoint,

428
00:21:34,939 --> 00:21:38,719
but we cannot physically stop a child from lying or from stealing.

429
00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,180
So it has to be a willful decision on behalf of the child.

430
00:21:44,410 --> 00:21:46,459
The child will eventually

431
00:21:46,910 --> 00:21:50,280
self correct, the child will eventually self control.

432
00:21:50,770 --> 00:21:52,739
The child will eventually self regulate,

433
00:21:53,030 --> 00:21:54,359
but she's not there yet.

434
00:21:55,020 --> 00:21:58,560
So we are patient, patient, patient and funny,

435
00:21:58,569 --> 00:22:02,510
One of the comments from one of the collective members when we watched that video,

436
00:22:02,599 --> 00:22:05,640
someone said, oh my gosh, you were so patient with that kid.

437
00:22:05,849 --> 00:22:09,189
And I have been told by a lot of people strangely enough, quote,

438
00:22:09,199 --> 00:22:13,069
you have the patience of Job, which if you're not familiar with that biblical story,

439
00:22:13,229 --> 00:22:15,540
he was put under a lot of stress and,

440
00:22:15,729 --> 00:22:18,680
and bad situations and he was just very patient to wait it out.

441
00:22:18,989 --> 00:22:19,650
So

442
00:22:19,930 --> 00:22:25,670
you have that concept of, you just extend patience upon patience, upon patience

443
00:22:25,979 --> 00:22:28,930
because it has to be the child's choice

444
00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:33,160
and the child's awareness and the child becoming a better version.

445
00:22:33,310 --> 00:22:36,079
No child wants to lie. No child wants to steal.

446
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,979
She's doing it because it's serving a need right now.

447
00:22:39,180 --> 00:22:41,060
We can't stop that need

448
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:43,939
and we can't force her not to do it at this moment.

449
00:22:44,109 --> 00:22:45,640
So we're just patient.

450
00:22:45,650 --> 00:22:49,939
That is my number one and best approach for a situation like this.

451
00:22:50,420 --> 00:22:52,500
It's just extending grace and patience,

452
00:22:52,670 --> 00:22:55,560
which is not easy or fun, but it is the best approach.

453
00:22:55,750 --> 00:22:57,939
Ok, then what do we do? We set limits.

454
00:22:59,109 --> 00:23:02,829
So we have to make sure we're using the full ACT process, right?

455
00:23:02,939 --> 00:23:05,489
We acknowledge the feeling we communicate the neutral limit.

456
00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:06,880
We target the alternatives.

457
00:23:07,420 --> 00:23:09,709
We have to make it very clear

458
00:23:09,829 --> 00:23:11,949
that the toys are for staying in the playroom

459
00:23:12,420 --> 00:23:15,329
and that limit is expressed again and again and again,

460
00:23:15,339 --> 00:23:18,290
giving the child the opportunity to comply with the choice.

461
00:23:18,699 --> 00:23:22,880
Then we move to ultimate choice giving if the child can't comply with the limit.

462
00:23:23,390 --> 00:23:26,260
So then it's, if you choose, then you choose, right?

463
00:23:27,910 --> 00:23:30,469
And we go through that process again and again,

464
00:23:30,479 --> 00:23:33,979
but the point is we give the child the opportunity

465
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,569
to practice complying.

466
00:23:38,500 --> 00:23:43,000
We don't insist we don't enforce, we don't grab something out of their hand.

467
00:23:43,010 --> 00:23:44,420
We don't do any of those things.

468
00:23:44,660 --> 00:23:48,160
We give them the opportunity to choose to comply

469
00:23:48,630 --> 00:23:49,770
and they don't always choose that.

470
00:23:49,780 --> 00:23:50,380
At first,

471
00:23:50,390 --> 00:23:53,880
sometimes toys go home in kids pockets or in kids' hands or in kids'

472
00:23:53,890 --> 00:23:59,359
mouths or in kids shoes or whatever clever place they find to hide it.

473
00:23:59,989 --> 00:24:01,890
Sometimes they go home with kids

474
00:24:02,010 --> 00:24:06,079
because they can't at that moment choose to comply.

475
00:24:06,189 --> 00:24:07,479
But eventually they do.

476
00:24:08,250 --> 00:24:11,599
So we wait it out. We set limits and we provide choices.

477
00:24:11,810 --> 00:24:14,640
The only other suggestion that I have for that

478
00:24:14,729 --> 00:24:17,109
is you can also use I wonder statements.

479
00:24:17,949 --> 00:24:20,880
So in the case with the kid trying to steal the Lego,

480
00:24:21,459 --> 00:24:24,750
it wasn't even a Lego. It was a gem.

481
00:24:25,180 --> 00:24:27,699
So it was like a blue diamond

482
00:24:27,859 --> 00:24:32,199
gem. So it was amazing, right? Like the allure was so strong.

483
00:24:32,780 --> 00:24:37,390
And so, and I don't have one of those at home and I just really want to have it and it was,

484
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:38,729
it was this whole thing, ok?

485
00:24:39,079 --> 00:24:39,839
So

486
00:24:40,170 --> 00:24:43,459
after he put it in his pocket and then told me that it was

487
00:24:43,469 --> 00:24:47,040
no longer in his pocket because he put his hand in his pocket,

488
00:24:47,050 --> 00:24:51,119
took the gem out of his pocket and then showed me his pocket was empty.

489
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,819
So I said,

490
00:24:54,250 --> 00:24:57,660
oh you showed me that it's not in your pocket. I wonder what's in your hand.

491
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:00,959
So then he transferred it to his other hand

492
00:25:01,229 --> 00:25:03,260
and I said, oh you're showing me that hand's empty.

493
00:25:03,270 --> 00:25:04,979
I wonder what's in your other hand now.

494
00:25:05,439 --> 00:25:08,010
So then he transfers it back and shows me his left hand and I said,

495
00:25:08,020 --> 00:25:10,260
I wonder if you can show me both hands at the same time.

496
00:25:11,150 --> 00:25:14,839
So that is a way that you can address,

497
00:25:15,180 --> 00:25:19,050
trying to give the child an opportunity to choose to leave it with you.

498
00:25:19,060 --> 00:25:21,099
Notice that you're not saying give it back to me.

499
00:25:21,109 --> 00:25:23,180
Notice that you're not saying you can't take it

500
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,250
notice that you're not saying you're not leaving until you

501
00:25:26,439 --> 00:25:28,650
don't ever threaten a child. Please. Y'all

502
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:32,119
don't ever ever threaten a child.

503
00:25:32,599 --> 00:25:34,520
Don't let parents threaten their kids.

504
00:25:35,170 --> 00:25:37,780
They learn nothing about self control when they're threatened.

505
00:25:39,219 --> 00:25:44,520
That was a bonus freebie, ok? I'm back. So we don't do any of those things,

506
00:25:44,790 --> 00:25:48,900
but we give children as many opportunities as possible to

507
00:25:49,589 --> 00:25:51,170
comply with the limit.

508
00:25:51,550 --> 00:25:56,150
And guess what? My little guy chose to leave his blue diamond Lego piece

509
00:25:56,430 --> 00:25:59,609
before he left, he took it with him out of the playroom,

510
00:25:59,770 --> 00:26:02,670
but he left it with me before he got in his car.

511
00:26:03,030 --> 00:26:05,920
Ok? So that is how we handle a scenario like that.

512
00:26:05,979 --> 00:26:08,489
It's a lot of patience, lying, stealing,

513
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:14,489
cheating kids can be difficult to test our resolve to stay child-centered.

514
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:14,839
So

515
00:26:15,089 --> 00:26:16,430
one of you is gonna give in.

516
00:26:16,439 --> 00:26:20,030
It's not gonna be you don't forget that we talk about that mantra a lot.

517
00:26:20,689 --> 00:26:23,219
All right. Bonus from Thailand. Thank you so much. For that question.

518
00:26:23,229 --> 00:26:24,869
I hope that that was helpful for you.

519
00:26:25,189 --> 00:26:25,729
All right.

520
00:26:25,739 --> 00:26:31,510
So my next question is from a lady in California who has asked to remain anonymous.

521
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:33,229
So I'm going to just say J

522
00:26:34,369 --> 00:26:38,099
and this question is about

523
00:26:39,239 --> 00:26:44,170
why I think child-centered is more appropriate than directive methods.

524
00:26:44,969 --> 00:26:47,189
Go for the big guns. Holy

525
00:26:47,290 --> 00:26:52,739
moly. OK. So I read that and I'm like, wow, we're just gonna like go. OK.

526
00:26:53,199 --> 00:26:58,550
So let me read parts of Jay's email and then I'll help you hear my thoughts.

527
00:26:58,979 --> 00:26:59,780
So

528
00:26:59,910 --> 00:27:04,140
she says I love child led therapy. My personality is more suited to it.

529
00:27:04,469 --> 00:27:07,219
I'm not comfortable feeling like I'm in a teacher role.

530
00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:11,300
I would rather let kids lead and reflect content, name the feelings set,

531
00:27:11,310 --> 00:27:12,380
minimal limits, et cetera.

532
00:27:12,390 --> 00:27:13,619
As in CCPT.

533
00:27:13,859 --> 00:27:16,660
My colleagues don't think it's therapy. I'm quoting now.

534
00:27:16,670 --> 00:27:18,880
My colleagues don't think it's therapy.

535
00:27:19,130 --> 00:27:22,760
If you let a kid come into the room play without structure or

536
00:27:22,770 --> 00:27:25,609
teaching appropriate behaviors or without teaching

537
00:27:25,619 --> 00:27:28,160
them specific skills or leading activities.

538
00:27:28,170 --> 00:27:28,920
End quote.

539
00:27:29,420 --> 00:27:32,069
Ok. I'm gonna pause there because there's more to the question.

540
00:27:32,810 --> 00:27:33,560
But

541
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,119
I'm honest to a fault and you're gonna get my opinion and my two cents.

542
00:27:38,130 --> 00:27:40,219
So you asked for it. Here it is.

543
00:27:40,410 --> 00:27:42,160
Your colleagues are wrong, Jay.

544
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:45,800
And I don't say that to be spiteful. I don't say that to be angry.

545
00:27:45,810 --> 00:27:47,079
I don't say that with judgment.

546
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,670
I just want to make it very clear.

547
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:52,500
Child-centered play therapy

548
00:27:52,619 --> 00:27:53,670
is therapy

549
00:27:54,140 --> 00:27:56,579
So anyone that tells you otherwise they're wrong,

550
00:27:57,829 --> 00:28:01,650
That's, that's as succinct as I can be with my commentary on that.

551
00:28:01,660 --> 00:28:03,150
I'm not even gonna go further with it.

552
00:28:03,540 --> 00:28:07,469
If we can't all agree that child-centered play therapy is therapy,

553
00:28:08,010 --> 00:28:12,569
then everything we do is useless. So your colleagues are wrong, Jay.

554
00:28:12,579 --> 00:28:16,010
And I don't mean that in a mean way, I just want you to know you have the,

555
00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,500
the mental capacity to recognize that no matter what they say,

556
00:28:19,510 --> 00:28:20,489
it doesn't make it true.

557
00:28:21,060 --> 00:28:21,489
Ok.

558
00:28:21,969 --> 00:28:25,150
So now that I've shared my piece on that, now I'll keep going.

559
00:28:25,439 --> 00:28:26,339
So the next question,

560
00:28:26,349 --> 00:28:30,510
how and why do you see non directive play more effective than directive models?

561
00:28:30,829 --> 00:28:34,510
Are there certain issues where you see non directive most effective such as

562
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,949
with younger ages or for self esteem or mood rather than behaviors?

563
00:28:38,959 --> 00:28:41,170
I know that all models are valid and effective

564
00:28:41,180 --> 00:28:44,189
and you don't want to discredit the directive ones.

565
00:28:45,290 --> 00:28:48,430
That is true. I don't want to discredit them. I just disagree,

566
00:28:48,910 --> 00:28:52,390
but I'd love to know how you compare them in achieving change

567
00:28:52,859 --> 00:28:54,900
and specifically how you see non

568
00:28:55,030 --> 00:28:57,140
directive as more effective than directive.

569
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:58,869
All right. So

570
00:28:59,369 --> 00:29:00,829
you asked for it, Jay, here it goes.

571
00:29:01,729 --> 00:29:05,859
I just went to concerts two nights in a row last Thursday and Friday,

572
00:29:05,869 --> 00:29:09,229
we went to see Larry Fleet and Dalton Dover on Thursday night.

573
00:29:09,369 --> 00:29:10,270
Fantastic.

574
00:29:10,479 --> 00:29:12,790
And then we went to see Carly Pearce and Tim McGraw

575
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:15,349
on Friday for those of you non country music fans,

576
00:29:15,359 --> 00:29:18,540
you have no idea who I'm talking about, but they're all country music artists, so

577
00:29:19,229 --> 00:29:20,719
great concerts

578
00:29:21,229 --> 00:29:22,930
and I love all of those artists.

579
00:29:22,939 --> 00:29:29,650
So it just like filled me up with 4 artists and concerts worth of greatness. So

580
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,880
I'm bringing this up for a reason. I'm not just telling you about my week. All right.

581
00:29:32,890 --> 00:29:33,239
So

582
00:29:33,479 --> 00:29:37,770
one of Carly Pearce's songs is called Tell you what he didn't do. I think

583
00:29:37,989 --> 00:29:40,910
that might be a paraphrase of the lyrics, but tell you what he didn't do.

584
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:41,719
I think is what it's called.

585
00:29:42,829 --> 00:29:45,650
And this is what comes to mind when I hear your question, Jay.

586
00:29:45,660 --> 00:29:47,209
And when I, when I'm thinking through,

587
00:29:47,380 --> 00:29:51,569
why do I think non directive play is more effective than directive models?

588
00:29:51,579 --> 00:29:55,410
And how do I find it more effective? And how do I compare them, et cetera?

589
00:29:55,420 --> 00:29:57,250
So Carly Pearce's song

590
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,459
starts out with the premise that she and her husband.

591
00:30:00,469 --> 00:30:03,479
This is actually she wrote this song and it's true about her life.

592
00:30:03,489 --> 00:30:05,130
So she had recently gotten divorced

593
00:30:05,719 --> 00:30:09,010
and the song starts and says, everyone's asking what happened,

594
00:30:09,020 --> 00:30:10,530
how did it all go wrong?

595
00:30:10,989 --> 00:30:15,229
And then she proceeds to say, but my mom always told me if you can't say anything nice,

596
00:30:15,239 --> 00:30:16,569
don't say anything at all.

597
00:30:16,989 --> 00:30:19,369
So I'm not going to air the dirty laundry.

598
00:30:19,380 --> 00:30:21,729
I'm not going to tell you all the things that he did.

599
00:30:21,739 --> 00:30:23,239
But I'll tell you what he didn't do,

600
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,530
he didn't treat me right. He didn't put me first. He wasn't a man of his word.

601
00:30:27,719 --> 00:30:29,400
So I'm not gonna tell you all the things he did,

602
00:30:29,410 --> 00:30:31,260
but I'll tell you all the things he didn't do.

603
00:30:31,270 --> 00:30:32,099
All right. So

604
00:30:32,250 --> 00:30:33,760
here's where I'm going with this.

605
00:30:34,390 --> 00:30:37,660
I am not going to tell you all of the things that

606
00:30:37,810 --> 00:30:40,160
I don't like about directive models,

607
00:30:40,369 --> 00:30:44,530
but I will tell you all the things that I like about child-centered models.

608
00:30:44,589 --> 00:30:46,619
So I think I'm trying to be as diplomatic

609
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:49,859
as possible with my Carly Pearce version here.

610
00:30:49,869 --> 00:30:50,890
So here we go.

611
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,089
When you look at child-centered approach,

612
00:30:54,859 --> 00:30:55,640
you

613
00:30:56,359 --> 00:30:59,800
allow a child to have longitudinal gain,

614
00:31:00,550 --> 00:31:02,040
longitudinal

615
00:31:02,390 --> 00:31:03,189
outcomes.

616
00:31:04,270 --> 00:31:06,290
That's a big word. So let me unpack that for you.

617
00:31:06,750 --> 00:31:10,930
We see evidence that long term many years after therapy,

618
00:31:11,189 --> 00:31:14,449
children that have been in a child-centered play therapy approach

619
00:31:14,589 --> 00:31:16,420
still have those skills,

620
00:31:16,430 --> 00:31:20,989
still possess those tools and are still benefiting from them years afterwards.

621
00:31:22,319 --> 00:31:22,910
Ok.

622
00:31:23,380 --> 00:31:28,579
So why do I think child-centered is better because it allows a child to for

623
00:31:28,589 --> 00:31:31,229
the rest of their life benefit from

624
00:31:31,239 --> 00:31:33,930
what they've gained from the child-centered approach.

625
00:31:34,300 --> 00:31:35,180
Secondly,

626
00:31:35,819 --> 00:31:37,520
it is not situational.

627
00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:40,790
Child-centered play therapy is not situational,

628
00:31:40,890 --> 00:31:42,369
it's not environmental,

629
00:31:42,750 --> 00:31:48,280
it's not specific to one behavior, one issue, one struggle, one anything.

630
00:31:50,130 --> 00:31:50,810
So

631
00:31:51,609 --> 00:31:53,369
if you have a child that

632
00:31:54,030 --> 00:31:57,160
has crippling anxiety and will not

633
00:31:58,310 --> 00:32:01,810
eat mozzarella sticks because he choked on one.

634
00:32:02,150 --> 00:32:04,170
And now he is scared to death of eating.

635
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:06,890
Ok, we can

636
00:32:07,369 --> 00:32:09,619
do a directive approach.

637
00:32:10,329 --> 00:32:11,219
We can

638
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,579
desensitize a child to food.

639
00:32:13,959 --> 00:32:14,910
We can

640
00:32:15,069 --> 00:32:18,859
give them strategies for when you sit down to eat what you're going

641
00:32:18,869 --> 00:32:21,989
to do so that you're not consumed with worry about choking again.

642
00:32:23,619 --> 00:32:27,260
But that's situationally specific. It's environmentally specific

643
00:32:27,989 --> 00:32:30,060
and it's for that one specific issue.

644
00:32:32,219 --> 00:32:34,290
Whereas the child-centered approach

645
00:32:34,959 --> 00:32:37,010
equips the child with coping

646
00:32:37,660 --> 00:32:38,640
and resilience

647
00:32:38,869 --> 00:32:40,310
and emotional vocabulary

648
00:32:40,939 --> 00:32:47,119
and understanding of feelings and problem solving skills and bigger worldview

649
00:32:47,449 --> 00:32:49,479
and better self esteem

650
00:32:49,819 --> 00:32:51,599
and I could go on and on and on.

651
00:32:52,449 --> 00:32:53,030
So

652
00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:55,810
if we directively address

653
00:32:56,030 --> 00:32:57,709
the eating issue at seven,

654
00:32:58,550 --> 00:33:01,650
might the child conquer the eating issue at seven?

655
00:33:02,540 --> 00:33:03,770
I would hope so.

656
00:33:04,780 --> 00:33:07,449
But what happens when another fear emerges at nine?

657
00:33:08,390 --> 00:33:10,930
No coping skills were built at seven

658
00:33:11,689 --> 00:33:13,430
that universally apply.

659
00:33:13,599 --> 00:33:18,069
We only built coping skills for the eating of the mozzarella sticks at seven.

660
00:33:19,459 --> 00:33:22,319
Child-centered play therapy. Equips a child

661
00:33:23,089 --> 00:33:26,510
universally with all of that stuff that applies forever in the future.

662
00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:28,680
That's my second thought.

663
00:33:28,959 --> 00:33:29,839
My third

664
00:33:30,119 --> 00:33:32,369
is kids are not rational,

665
00:33:32,650 --> 00:33:34,250
they don't have abstract reasoning,

666
00:33:34,910 --> 00:33:37,250
they are not cognitive and logical beings

667
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:39,579
until 13.

668
00:33:41,349 --> 00:33:46,079
So unless we're waiting until kids are 14 to use directive interventions with them,

669
00:33:47,239 --> 00:33:48,630
it's not age appropriate,

670
00:33:49,150 --> 00:33:50,900
it's not developmentally appropriate.

671
00:33:52,010 --> 00:33:54,079
It's not sensitive to a child's needs.

672
00:33:55,910 --> 00:34:00,780
A child cannot be expected to learn something cognitively in their head

673
00:34:01,579 --> 00:34:06,160
and process things at a cognitive level until they have abstract reasoning at 13.

674
00:34:10,228 --> 00:34:11,330
And I'm pausing.

675
00:34:11,659 --> 00:34:14,090
We call these a pregnant pause. I love that phrase.

676
00:34:14,678 --> 00:34:16,589
This is a pregnant pause on purpose

677
00:34:17,958 --> 00:34:19,678
y'all. Why would we do that to a kid?

678
00:34:21,638 --> 00:34:25,128
A kid that does not have the developmental capacity

679
00:34:25,418 --> 00:34:27,618
to process things cognitively,

680
00:34:28,580 --> 00:34:31,120
to be rational and reasonable

681
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,280
and think through something

682
00:34:33,478 --> 00:34:34,938
they can't do it,

683
00:34:35,590 --> 00:34:37,629
they feel their way through it.

684
00:34:38,989 --> 00:34:42,330
Why would we think that the best approach

685
00:34:42,820 --> 00:34:46,070
would be to force them to try to do something that they can't do?

686
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:52,870
We don't force a baby to walk. Why? Because a child can't walk until they can walk.

687
00:34:54,750 --> 00:34:58,669
Why would we require a child to do something

688
00:34:58,679 --> 00:35:01,370
that they don't have the developmental capacity to do?

689
00:35:02,550 --> 00:35:05,370
I think it's harmful and I think it's insensitive

690
00:35:05,729 --> 00:35:08,810
and I think it is very well intended

691
00:35:08,969 --> 00:35:11,129
but very poorly executed.

692
00:35:12,860 --> 00:35:14,379
The child-centered model

693
00:35:14,770 --> 00:35:18,840
is developmentally appropriate so that the child is able

694
00:35:18,850 --> 00:35:21,850
to process things the way that they process things,

695
00:35:23,179 --> 00:35:25,989
we're not asking them to do something they're not capable of doing.

696
00:35:27,189 --> 00:35:28,560
So that's my point number three.

697
00:35:28,770 --> 00:35:30,209
And my final point is

698
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:31,689
you have

699
00:35:32,060 --> 00:35:36,449
the universal organization of everything that they learn and it snowballs.

700
00:35:36,899 --> 00:35:39,610
So as a child gets more self-confident,

701
00:35:39,699 --> 00:35:42,270
their behavior gets better as their behavior gets better,

702
00:35:42,340 --> 00:35:44,729
they problem solve better as they problem solve better.

703
00:35:44,739 --> 00:35:47,729
They feel better about themselves as they feel better about themselves,

704
00:35:47,739 --> 00:35:52,330
they behave in more self enhancing ways, then their social interactions improve.

705
00:35:52,340 --> 00:35:55,090
Then their academics improve, then they feel better about themselves,

706
00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:56,889
then their self esteem grows that

707
00:35:57,469 --> 00:35:59,409
everything swirls

708
00:35:59,610 --> 00:36:03,209
and everything gets universalized where they take it with them

709
00:36:03,219 --> 00:36:06,889
forever and everything begets growth in all other areas.

710
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,550
So J in California,

711
00:36:11,909 --> 00:36:15,639
I got a little passionate there for a second, but it kind of gets under my skin

712
00:36:16,179 --> 00:36:19,010
because I just don't think that there's sensitivity

713
00:36:19,020 --> 00:36:21,250
to what a child is capable of managing

714
00:36:21,389 --> 00:36:23,080
from a directive approach. So

715
00:36:23,629 --> 00:36:27,169
that is why I think the child-centered model is more effective.

716
00:36:27,379 --> 00:36:29,979
I would love to hear from you all. Maybe you have some other ideas.

717
00:36:29,989 --> 00:36:33,610
Maybe you think I didn't cover all of the reasons why child center is more effective.

718
00:36:33,620 --> 00:36:35,510
Shoot me an email. I'd love to hear from you,

719
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:37,510
brenna@thekidcounselor.com.

720
00:36:37,620 --> 00:36:39,560
All right, J from California. Thank you.

721
00:36:39,669 --> 00:36:43,449
Last and final one. We're almost done y'all. I might get you out in 40 minutes.

722
00:36:43,459 --> 00:36:44,159
We'll see.

723
00:36:44,270 --> 00:36:44,770
All right,

724
00:36:45,179 --> 00:36:47,090
Lexi from Minnesota

725
00:36:47,709 --> 00:36:52,969
actually asked quite a few questions, but they all are kind of sort of connected. So

726
00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:54,350
she said

727
00:36:54,939 --> 00:36:58,149
I want to apply concepts to practice.

728
00:36:58,159 --> 00:37:00,770
So she talked about her playroom specifically.

729
00:37:00,780 --> 00:37:03,770
It has a desk with paperwork and books and there's a

730
00:37:03,780 --> 00:37:06,189
closet with some snacks in it and stuff like that.

731
00:37:06,290 --> 00:37:09,500
How do I adapt the playroom to these circumstances?

732
00:37:10,340 --> 00:37:11,449
You really don't have to,

733
00:37:12,129 --> 00:37:15,360
I have tons and tons and tons of people that I train all over the world

734
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:19,110
that don't have a dedicated playroom. And there are other things in there.

735
00:37:19,479 --> 00:37:24,189
So you just make it very clear what is part of the playroom and what isn't?

736
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,469
You set limits when needed kids know the difference.

737
00:37:27,479 --> 00:37:29,830
So if they walk over to the closet and you say, oh,

738
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:32,419
you're curious about what's in there, but that's not part of the playroom.

739
00:37:32,429 --> 00:37:33,530
The playroom is over here.

740
00:37:33,879 --> 00:37:36,540
They understand that they comply with it. No big deal.

741
00:37:36,899 --> 00:37:38,000
Next question.

742
00:37:38,010 --> 00:37:42,060
If there are immediate safety concerns, self harm or suicidal actions,

743
00:37:42,070 --> 00:37:42,739
where do you start?

744
00:37:42,750 --> 00:37:44,050
Do you do safety plans?

745
00:37:44,419 --> 00:37:48,439
Ok. From a purely child-centered perspective, we do not do safety plans.

746
00:37:49,010 --> 00:37:52,000
However, I do think it is ethical and appropriate

747
00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:54,280
to. Number one document.

748
00:37:54,489 --> 00:37:55,479
Number two,

749
00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,250
reflect and respond in the same way.

750
00:37:59,260 --> 00:38:01,169
We would if they shared anything else,

751
00:38:01,179 --> 00:38:04,250
see if the child is willing to reveal more information.

752
00:38:04,820 --> 00:38:07,919
And then third, we can always use I wonder statements

753
00:38:08,270 --> 00:38:11,169
to assess for the immediacy of that.

754
00:38:11,330 --> 00:38:13,570
So for example, if a child says, you know,

755
00:38:13,909 --> 00:38:16,199
yeah, I wanted to die

756
00:38:16,389 --> 00:38:17,449
when that happened.

757
00:38:18,790 --> 00:38:22,770
If you feel that you actually need to get a sense of what that means

758
00:38:23,260 --> 00:38:24,729
you reflect first

759
00:38:24,969 --> 00:38:29,149
because remember we're not trying to lead, we're not trying to gain information.

760
00:38:29,159 --> 00:38:31,739
We're not trying to interrogate that's not child-centered.

761
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:33,250
So we would say,

762
00:38:33,620 --> 00:38:36,250
oh, I wonder when that, I wonder when you felt that way?

763
00:38:36,969 --> 00:38:39,429
Oh, like last year when I was in third grade?

764
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,810
Oh, ok. That's a very different response than this morning.

765
00:38:43,070 --> 00:38:43,550
Right.

766
00:38:44,050 --> 00:38:47,540
So you can always use an I wonder statement to get a

767
00:38:47,550 --> 00:38:51,010
sense of what's going on and what the immediacy concern is.

768
00:38:51,250 --> 00:38:54,510
But we do not go through the,

769
00:38:54,790 --> 00:38:56,979
we're gonna create a safety plan and we're going

770
00:38:56,989 --> 00:38:59,189
to ask you all these questions and whatever,

771
00:38:59,199 --> 00:39:00,689
they don't have

772
00:39:01,350 --> 00:39:04,530
abstract reasoning as we've talked about unless they're 14.

773
00:39:05,010 --> 00:39:08,209
And that just does not align with

774
00:39:08,530 --> 00:39:12,010
the ability of the child to be in charge. And keep in mind

775
00:39:12,330 --> 00:39:16,219
often a child brings a sensitive topic like that up as a test.

776
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,489
So we talked about this in the collective as well.

777
00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:21,340
If a child

778
00:39:21,610 --> 00:39:23,219
senses for a second

779
00:39:23,350 --> 00:39:26,649
that you can't handle it, that it's freaking you out that you're worried

780
00:39:26,750 --> 00:39:28,300
that you're gonna tell their parents

781
00:39:28,429 --> 00:39:30,620
that there's any kind of concern from your

782
00:39:30,629 --> 00:39:33,250
end other than complete neutrality and acceptance,

783
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:34,489
they're done,

784
00:39:34,629 --> 00:39:37,270
the conversation is done. They're never gonna bring it up again.

785
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:38,739
They're never gonna talk to you about it again.

786
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:41,139
So it's our job.

787
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,500
We have one chance. It's our job to be completely child-centered

788
00:39:46,149 --> 00:39:49,570
and make sure that they feel unconditionally accepted

789
00:39:50,050 --> 00:39:52,850
so that whatever they need to process can be processed.

790
00:39:53,820 --> 00:39:55,250
Ok. Next question,

791
00:39:55,820 --> 00:39:57,729
the child goes into the closet

792
00:39:58,010 --> 00:40:01,199
used all the bubbles, the lotion dumped them out for a craft,

793
00:40:01,209 --> 00:40:04,639
finds tea and cuts each tea bag open every bag of

794
00:40:04,649 --> 00:40:07,020
tea and dumps the tea out for their art project.

795
00:40:07,399 --> 00:40:11,280
Then the child put additional things in their art project to take home.

796
00:40:11,580 --> 00:40:13,459
So the child wanted to use everything,

797
00:40:13,469 --> 00:40:17,600
all of it even wanted to add toys and sand inside of a balloon to bring home.

798
00:40:17,610 --> 00:40:19,320
Therefore, taking toys from the playroom.

799
00:40:19,729 --> 00:40:23,010
I don't have resources to buy all new lotion and all new bubbles each week.

800
00:40:23,020 --> 00:40:25,550
Do I remove these items and have less available?

801
00:40:26,050 --> 00:40:26,590
All right,

802
00:40:26,850 --> 00:40:29,379
we always can set a limit on

803
00:40:30,030 --> 00:40:31,510
anything that we need to

804
00:40:31,689 --> 00:40:35,290
with our three questions that we ask. So, is this limit necessary?

805
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:37,149
Can I consistently enforce this limit?

806
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,739
And can I allow this behavior to continue if I

807
00:40:39,750 --> 00:40:41,739
don't set a limit and still accept the child?

808
00:40:42,449 --> 00:40:48,139
So if we process those in this scenario, if you

809
00:40:48,489 --> 00:40:52,360
are feeling frustrated by the consumption of all of this and going oh my gosh,

810
00:40:52,370 --> 00:40:53,479
I'm gonna have to replace all this.

811
00:40:53,489 --> 00:40:56,360
I don't have the money. This is making an absolute mess there.

812
00:40:56,370 --> 00:40:57,750
If any of that's going on,

813
00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:00,870
it's getting in the way of your unconditional acceptance of the child,

814
00:41:00,879 --> 00:41:04,030
it's getting in your way of your engagement relationally with the child.

815
00:41:04,370 --> 00:41:06,350
So you would absolutely set a limit on that.

816
00:41:06,850 --> 00:41:08,070
So that might be

817
00:41:08,659 --> 00:41:11,169
ACT first and then an if, then choice,

818
00:41:11,340 --> 00:41:12,830
right? So it might be,

819
00:41:12,959 --> 00:41:16,379
you're really enjoying putting all of those things in there.

820
00:41:16,459 --> 00:41:18,959
But those are for everyone to use.

821
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,040
If you choose to use

822
00:41:21,850 --> 00:41:26,560
tea in your art project, you choose to use one or you can choose to use two,

823
00:41:26,570 --> 00:41:27,469
which do you choose,

824
00:41:28,399 --> 00:41:31,340
then you're still giving permission to do what they want to do,

825
00:41:31,350 --> 00:41:34,610
but there's a limit on consumption of quantity, right?

826
00:41:35,590 --> 00:41:39,750
And you have to use the why in a scenario like that, that's really important.

827
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,330
We've talked about that a lot in the coaching.

828
00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:43,820
When a child is given a limit,

829
00:41:43,830 --> 00:41:46,709
it is helpful for them to understand why the limits being set.

830
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:50,689
Notice that I said because those are for every child to be able to use.

831
00:41:52,449 --> 00:41:56,149
So that is the why it's not just that I don't want you to use it all.

832
00:41:56,159 --> 00:41:58,560
It's that there won't be any left for everyone else.

833
00:41:59,350 --> 00:42:01,510
So the why matters or it might be

834
00:42:01,729 --> 00:42:03,860
you're really having fun with the lotion,

835
00:42:04,060 --> 00:42:06,110
but the lotion can make a mess

836
00:42:06,510 --> 00:42:08,989
so you can choose to use it up here or you can choose

837
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,800
to use it over here so that it doesn't create a mess.

838
00:42:12,169 --> 00:42:13,669
There's the why right?

839
00:42:13,679 --> 00:42:17,250
So make sure that the why is worked in when you do have to set those limits?

840
00:42:17,870 --> 00:42:18,280
Ok.

841
00:42:18,810 --> 00:42:21,669
Next question. What about when the child wants

842
00:42:21,820 --> 00:42:23,370
to have you close your eyes?

843
00:42:24,379 --> 00:42:29,179
Oh Let me tell you my ninja trick for when a child wants you to close their eyes,

844
00:42:29,189 --> 00:42:30,419
wants you to close your eyes.

845
00:42:31,419 --> 00:42:33,379
You don't just close your eyes and then try to

846
00:42:33,389 --> 00:42:35,879
like squint and peek because they always catch you.

847
00:42:36,050 --> 00:42:39,600
So what you do is you put your hands up over your eyes

848
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:41,479
and then you keep your eyes open,

849
00:42:41,489 --> 00:42:43,800
but you look through the slats between your fingers.

850
00:42:44,860 --> 00:42:47,860
So think about what baseball players do when it's a really sunny

851
00:42:47,870 --> 00:42:50,500
day and they're trying to track a ball into the outfield.

852
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,520
They actually hold their glove up and they look through the slats in their glove

853
00:42:54,699 --> 00:42:56,959
because the, the glove blocks the sun,

854
00:42:56,969 --> 00:43:01,149
but they can still see through the slits in their leather glove.

855
00:43:01,439 --> 00:43:03,899
You're essentially doing that same thing with your fingers.

856
00:43:03,909 --> 00:43:06,760
So you actually will hold your hands up over your eyes,

857
00:43:06,820 --> 00:43:11,939
cover your eyes and cheeks with your hands and then you can keep your eyes open.

858
00:43:11,949 --> 00:43:13,669
But the child cannot tell that your eyes are

859
00:43:13,679 --> 00:43:16,159
open because your fingers are blocking your eyes.

860
00:43:16,169 --> 00:43:19,139
But you can still see through the slits in your fingers.

861
00:43:19,159 --> 00:43:22,340
So that is the ninja trick when a child tells you to close your eyes

862
00:43:22,679 --> 00:43:25,149
and then you can still see what's going on.

863
00:43:25,939 --> 00:43:27,040
So

864
00:43:27,270 --> 00:43:29,000
the question continued.

865
00:43:29,209 --> 00:43:31,800
Then she filled my hands with globs of lotion.

866
00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:34,120
Then the tea then poured bubbles into my hands.

867
00:43:34,129 --> 00:43:37,469
Then wants you to touch your face with the lotion. How do you respond?

868
00:43:37,570 --> 00:43:40,330
Do you clean yourself up before returning to the lobby?

869
00:43:40,350 --> 00:43:42,280
Can I set a limit on not putting things on

870
00:43:42,290 --> 00:43:44,360
my face and hair if that makes me uncomfortable?

871
00:43:44,370 --> 00:43:46,000
100%? Yes.

872
00:43:46,590 --> 00:43:50,370
So if you don't mind it being in your hands, then you would just say

873
00:43:50,590 --> 00:43:52,550
you can choose to put all of that in my hands.

874
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,850
But I choose not to touch my face with it because it will make a mess

875
00:43:56,139 --> 00:44:00,179
or I choose not to touch my hair with it because I won't be able to get it out of my hair.

876
00:44:01,110 --> 00:44:05,689
So notice that you're saying I choose, it's not necessarily a limit for the child,

877
00:44:05,699 --> 00:44:10,570
but it is your boundary and your limit within what's happening in the play.

878
00:44:11,379 --> 00:44:15,239
So the child can choose to put lotion and tea and bubbles all over your hands.

879
00:44:15,399 --> 00:44:19,530
But you are choosing not to touch your face and not to touch your hair.

880
00:44:19,649 --> 00:44:22,909
Now, if the child was trying to touch your face and your hair,

881
00:44:22,919 --> 00:44:24,729
then you would set a limit on that.

882
00:44:24,879 --> 00:44:28,189
So you can choose to put that here or here.

883
00:44:28,580 --> 00:44:31,489
So that then it's clear that your face is not for touching, right?

884
00:44:31,770 --> 00:44:32,959
But I'm not for touching.

885
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:36,280
But since she was asking you to do it, then you would say,

886
00:44:36,290 --> 00:44:40,340
but I choose not to touch my face or my hair because it's going to make a mess.

887
00:44:41,370 --> 00:44:43,110
So in all of those Lexi,

888
00:44:43,120 --> 00:44:48,070
it sounds like the common theme is your concern of when and why you would set a limit.

889
00:44:48,260 --> 00:44:50,949
So I hope that that's helpful because I think that

890
00:44:51,169 --> 00:44:55,260
that's kind of an undercurrent in all of those questions is how do I handle that?

891
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:58,070
And one final thought about the craft I wanna circle back to that.

892
00:44:58,439 --> 00:45:01,810
You said do I remove any of these items and have less available?

893
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,159
This is a judgment call that every clinician needs to make.

894
00:45:05,639 --> 00:45:09,479
If you cannot accept behavior with certain toys or certain

895
00:45:09,489 --> 00:45:11,780
things in your playroom don't have them in there.

896
00:45:12,469 --> 00:45:16,260
You have to be fully accepting of whatever a child tries to do with them

897
00:45:16,850 --> 00:45:18,280
or you shouldn't have them in there.

898
00:45:18,290 --> 00:45:21,669
I don't have liquid paint in my room because I got to a

899
00:45:21,679 --> 00:45:24,429
point where it just made me mad every time a kid used it.

900
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,649
So I now have watercolor paint in there.

901
00:45:27,110 --> 00:45:30,120
I don't have glitter in my playroom because I got

902
00:45:30,129 --> 00:45:32,250
sick of trying to vacuum it in my room.

903
00:45:32,260 --> 00:45:35,830
So I don't have glitter anymore. I don't have sequins anymore.

904
00:45:35,860 --> 00:45:38,280
I don't have anything that drives me crazy

905
00:45:38,669 --> 00:45:40,530
because I can't handle it.

906
00:45:40,659 --> 00:45:43,840
So you need to decide, are you ok with bubbles?

907
00:45:43,850 --> 00:45:46,840
And you just have to limit the use of them. Are you ok with bubbles?

908
00:45:46,850 --> 00:45:48,889
You have to limit the quantity that's used.

909
00:45:49,379 --> 00:45:52,550
Bubbles are not inherently a problem unless they pour the entire

910
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,479
bottle on the floor and then it's a soapy bubbly mess.

911
00:45:55,639 --> 00:45:57,129
That's really hard to clean up.

912
00:45:57,139 --> 00:45:58,889
So is the limit how they use it,

913
00:45:58,899 --> 00:46:02,320
how much they use or do you just not want bubbles in there altogether?

914
00:46:02,820 --> 00:46:06,449
You need to decide for yourself that is in every clinician decision.

915
00:46:06,860 --> 00:46:09,110
What can you accept and what can you not

916
00:46:09,219 --> 00:46:14,050
and then move accordingly. However, once you have something in the room.

917
00:46:14,219 --> 00:46:17,070
We don't ever wanna remove it for one child.

918
00:46:17,709 --> 00:46:18,620
In other words,

919
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:23,370
every other kid is fine with bubbles, but this kid always has a problem with bubbles.

920
00:46:23,379 --> 00:46:26,260
So this kid isn't gonna get bubbles. We don't ever do that.

921
00:46:26,830 --> 00:46:31,129
We give the child the opportunity to practice self control and

922
00:46:31,139 --> 00:46:33,959
we leave the bubbles in there and we set appropriate limits

923
00:46:34,689 --> 00:46:38,169
and we try to avoid that by just saying, oh, I just won't put bubbles in there,

924
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:39,669
but that's not child-centered.

925
00:46:39,879 --> 00:46:41,689
So final thought on that.

926
00:46:41,870 --> 00:46:45,159
All right, y'all, I did not make my 40 minute mark, but I did make 46.

927
00:46:45,169 --> 00:46:46,830
So I'm gonna be pretty pleased with that.

928
00:46:47,060 --> 00:46:49,550
All right. Thank you so much to all of you who wrote in.

929
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,469
I really am trying to bang through these questions.

930
00:46:51,550 --> 00:46:53,449
So we'll do another lightning round soon.

931
00:46:53,780 --> 00:46:59,790
brenna@thekidcounselor.com. You can also call if you would like 813-812-5525.

932
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,929
I love y'all again. Check out the collective www.ccptcollective.com.

933
00:47:03,939 --> 00:47:06,449
Love to see you in there. I love each and every one of you.

934
00:47:06,459 --> 00:47:08,330
You know that we'll talk again soon. Bye.

935
00:47:09,219 --> 00:47:13,219
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.

936
00:47:13,229 --> 00:47:15,399
For more episodes and resources.

937
00:47:15,409 --> 00:47:20,320
Please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.