Body Double with Shereen Lani Younes

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Speaker 1: Hi, listeners. We wanted to provide a content warning for this episode because the movie, as well as our discussion involves things like stalking, spousal abuse, physical assault, and violence toward women. Just so everyone is aware. Enjoy the episode. On the beck Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands or do they have individualism? The patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the bec Del Cast, Jamie Caitlin, take a look into my telescope and observe from a distance the movie Body Double and how it asks us to be empathetic toward a protagonist who is Okay, we're starting negative, reeling negative for coming in freezing. I'm sorry, I can't stop looking at so my my dog is here right now. I want to just say at the top. First of all, welcome to the Bexelcast. Second of all, you know this this movie is gonna be an interesting chat. Third of all, Sonny's here and I got him a couple of tennis balls because I'm a you know, I'm you're a good mommy. I just like to give him things, but they're squeaky. I didn't realize they were squeaky, and he wouldn't stop barking at me until I gave him all four. So there might be some squeaks. He has them all, he's arranged them into a little diamond and he just keeps looking at them lustfully, and then occasionally he'll pick one up in his mouth and squeak it and then put it back and then rearrange the diamond formation. It's kind of sick and sick and perverted. It's because I showed him body double. Well, I was gonna say, I mean, speaking of looking at things lustfully. Yeah, I know he learned it, he said, I learned it from my boy to Palma horrifying. Okay, welcome to the Actel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, my name is Caitlin Darante, and this is our show where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, and we use the Bechtel test simply as a jumping off point to inspire a larger conversation about film. Flim flims. If you will, what is the Bechtel test? Though, Jamie, I forget, well, the Betel test is a movie or no, it's a It's an Oh my God. It's a media metric created by Quirk cartoonist Alison Bechdel, sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace Test, lots of versions of it. Ours requires that two people of a marginalized gender speak to each other about something other than a man for more than two lines of dialogue at very least, and they must have names in the and and it should means that should be a meaningful interaction. Can I give a quick anecdote example, please? There is a really annoying Twitter joke that is recycled every time a new movie comes out, where they're like, I'm sorry to report like Hopgun Maverick does not pass the Bechtel test, and it gets five trillion likes every time, and it's never funny, and it annoys me. And it particularly annoyed me yesterday when someone recycled that joke yet again to say Minions Rise of Grew does not pass the Bechtel test. Now, listen, I went to see Minions Rise of Grew last night opening night, and it does pass the Bechdel test. So not only have we been saying for years it's a flawed metric to begin with, and plenty of incredible movies do not pass the Bechdel test, but it is a good jumping off point for discussion. Perhaps Minions did pass the Beckdel test between Julie Andrews and Taraji p Henson. And if that's not a super pass, I don't know what sucking is. Tell me about it. Oh my god. So that's the show, um, And today we are talking about a pretty popular request, UM that we've gotten over the years many times. It's a Brian to Palmer movie called Body Double. It came out in four It's a neo noir, erotic thriller, and people have been saying it's sexist since it came out. So and if something is sexist, I'm very excited to talk about it now. And we have an incredible returning guest. Is this is this a three? Thin? Your third time? Aladdin? Speed? Was there something something in between? There was something in between? I think I think that this might be four. I just can't remember the other one. Maybe three, I don't know. I don't know. Time, Aladdin, Speed, and Body Double is a is a pretty solid genre spread too. Yeah, Well, let's introduce you properly. They are a filmmaker. Half of the podcast ethnically ambiguous. It's Sharine Lannie Unite, welcome back. Thanks for having me. I having curious about this movie for so long, so I was glad to have a reason to watch it. Um. I don't know what I was expecting, because I don't like knowing anything about a movie before I jump in, Like, I know I want to see it, but I just will not look any up about it. So it was a ride. I did not know what I was getting into. It was that so you had never seen this before? No, no, okay. I was fascinated about, Like what if you had a history with it? Are you like a Di Palma fan? I mean not necessarily. I think he's like he's all untalented. I think he's he makes it clear, especially in this movie, that he's just horny all the time. But but I just like that the poster is also really like erotic, and like, I've just heard so much about this movie for some reason, like maybe on letterbox and stuff. I always saw it pop up and I was like, what is this and that someone described it as aum the hottest thriller of the eighties or the sexiest thriller of the eighties, So I was like that piqued my interest. But but yeah, I don't have any history with it other than being just like very curious about it. And now I know me either. I had never seen this movie either. It was like vaguely on my radar. But I will say that erotic thrillers are one of my least favorite genres, so I never seek them out. And Brian de Palma, I'm not a fan. There, I said it. I don't like really any of his movies we've covered. Weirdly, we've covered two diploma movies on this show before. We've cavered Mission Impossible one, and we've covered Carrie. But he also did Scarface, which Untouchables. Oh, I do like Blowout with neither John Travolta. It's maybe my favorite John Travolta performance. Um, I would recommend blow Out out of all of the Apollo movies, I would recommend even over Face Off, which I think is no no, no no, But that's John Travolta. Yeah, yeah, oh yes, yes, Face Off is closest I've ever come to converting to scientology easily. You're just like, um, maybe he's got a point, because I love that movie. It's one of my top five movies of all time. I love that movie, Oh my gosh. But I would recommend maybe second, and then I would recommend it for his second best performance, Blowout. It's like it's like a in that movie. I'm like, Oh, he's a good actor, you know what I mean. But anyway, so Caitlin, you had not seen it before, I had not, had you, I had not. No. I think we all kind of had a similar experience where I've been hearing about this movie for years and I just sort of wasn't in a rush to see it. Honestly, the main selling point for me on this movie was I really like Melanie Griffith, and I am always down to see Melanie Griffith in a movie, and I thought she did a great job. And I'm always just like sometimes seeing Melanie Griffith in like movies in the eighties, who are just like, we're not giving her the material that she needs. And you know, it took a generation and now her daughter Dakota Johnson is doing a lot of incredible work that Melanie Griffith should have had access to as well. Anyways, some of the only good nepotism in the world, as far as I'm concerned, like that legacy. Agree amazing. But I knew that this movie had been and controversial for really long time, and I sunny that is really enough. But but I didn't I don't know. I didn't know any of the shrine like similar deal. I didn't know plot. I didn't know anything. I didn't know that it started a Bill Maher doppelganger that was really distracted, distracted, especially with his hair slicked back when he was like playing the producer person with his hair slick back. That's that's Bill Mark, it is. I mean, I don't know anything about this guy. He's been he's been nominated for a Golden Globe, like god, bless good for Craig Wasson. Who's that. I mean, look, we don't know. He could be a terrific guy. We don't know. The point is he is he looks exactly like someone despicable and it's like really despicable me. Shout out to our Despicable Me episode on the Matreon. You guys, I loved Rise. It grew so much. It was so funny. There they made a joke about look Already Airport. That was the minions essentially, Look, they fly a plane in this one and it's so funny. Okay, we have to we cannot get into the minions, so I hadn't. I'm like kind of ambivalent towards the Palma. I think that like his place in like movie history is kind of interesting because he's like grouped in with all those famous seventies directors and he's kind of one of the less discussed of them, like that whatever, we're crazy. He's still very discussed, but I feel like it's not well. But I don't want to dump it into fun but like I feel like it's like it's not discussed because his movies are like so fucking awesome. Sure, he's just discussed. I liked Carrie. Like I know, I haven't revisited in our episode or the movie in a while, but I mean, Carrie really stuck with me when I was younger. I remember enjoying Phantom of the Paradise, but I like watched it when I was sick a couple of years ago. And other than that, I kind of don't have And then you know, mission impossible. Sure why not Scarface? Scarf? Yes, I have not seen Scarface. That's one of my like right up there with I've not seen a single Godfather and like Scarface is something that we will have to cover eventually, and I dread the day he made Scarface right before Body Devil, which is really interesting to me because they feel completely different. But well, so he didn't write Scarface. No, he didn't know. I just realized, like as I was talking, like for Bobby Devil is said story by to Palma that he wrote it with someone else. But this movie is I mean the music, first of all, very dramatic, like peeping music, like every time you see that you saw the telescope, it was like this ethereal weird music. And then like they were just it was the music kind of scared me at times. I was not expecting so much, like it was manipulative. Yeah, I didn't like this movie and I like it, that's okay. I didn't like it, and it was like it's weird too, because it was like one of those movies that it has been so like people didn't like when they came out and they're like, this is weird Hitchcock rip off that is like even worse to women somehow and people. And then that was it for a while, and then people were trying to reclaim it. They're like, no, it's commentary. And then I'm like, uh, I couldn't get there. I couldn't get like it's like horny Hitchcock, right, and it's like Hitchcock also famously not a good person. Right. I've got some quotes for for after we do the recap. But like, I just was sort of because this movie has undergone so many like rounds of analysis and like some people have I think, like whatever, like think whatever you want, but like try to reclaim it as like this movie is commentary on voyeurism, it's not just voyeurism. And I looked to see if di Palma had ever given an interview to try to make that same case, and he sort of like did not at all. He's like, that's this is what happens in movies like by you know, and so we'll we'll get to like the exact particulars of what he has said about the movie. But I just, yeah, looking for his thoughts on this movie didn't really change my opinion of it in any way. I just I thought it would be Honestly, because it's been talked about so much, I thought it would be better. Like I thought it would be paler than it was and that's why I asked to watch Chicks. I was like, Oh, finally this reason to watch this longest movie that I've heard so much about. It's probably decent. Let's go, and I will say I think it was. I'm glad we watched it because there are a few lines that might be like my favorite lines in cinema of all times, that I just can't stop thinking about. There's which one when he's in the acting class and the guys like you are a baby and you're afraid and you must act, and then he goes, I can't. I'm a sardine. Like I just lost it, Like it was the stupidest line I've ever heard in my entire life. I can't. I'm a sardine. Uh. And then she's like you are a baby, and I was like, I hear that. I feel that in my bones. I mean. But other than that, I mean, I also love Melanie Griffith. I really I think she also deserved more just to be not as sexualized and not as just like pigeonholed as she was. But also she's like top build, but she doesn't come into the movie until like an hour or more. But it's just like who are you going to top Bill Craig Wesson? Who then is that? Who? So? Okay, should I Well, let's take a quick break first and then we'll get into the recap and we are back, and should we get into the recap and go from there? Yeah, let's do it. Okay, So body double. We meet Jake Scully played by Craig Watson, which, okay, first of all, Avatar Jake Sully, Jake Scully, Yeah, distracting. I was like, for a moment, I was like, is that Sully's name in Monsters, Inc? And then it's not. Sully had a different first name, James Sullivan. Yeah. And then I was like, but who's Jake Sully? And then I didn't investigate further. But yes, Jamie, you're right, Like, we don't have time to get into Avatar right now, and we will be covering it later in the year. It's a complicated film with a bizarro fucking history. But Jake Sully, like, and they say his name five trillion times, that's like, arguably the only thing I remember is the tail scene and the fact that there's a character named Jake Sully. Jake Sully. So Jake Scully, Jake Scully that's on James Cameron. Yeah, he should have not named his character basically the same thing. But we meet Jake Scully. He is an actor in Hollywood. Ever heard of it. He goes to an iconic hot dog stand that no longer exists at the beginning of the movie called Taylor the Pup, whose history I cover in my hot Dog book. Oh, it's like that hot dog shape building at the beginning of the movie, and it's been moved to like, yeah, it still exists, but they just like moved the building to like a storage unit. But it's still around, there's just not hot dogs in it anymore. Anyways, l A History. We were talking about l A History a lot in Speed too. That's true. Yeah, I mean, I they're a little bit cringe sometimes, but I do appreciate, like a very appreciate. I think those meta movies like You're You're suddenly on a movie set, I think those are kind of funny, you know what I mean, where they're likely higher to be filmed by the crew. I just think it's like very funny to me for some reason. Yeah, So this was the opening to this was entertaining. I was like, oh, yeah, I've never seen that before Bartie's Beanery Hello, because what happens is, so we meet Jake Scully when he is in the middle of filming a take for a vampire movie where he is the vampire and he's in a coffin, but he freezes and can't act because we'll learn that he has claustrophobia, so he's struggling with that. We then see Jake out of his vampire makeup and it is now clear that he is a dead ringer for Bill Maher and again it's very distracting, which I don't even know if that was a person at the time, Like, I know he's a lot, but I'm like, I don't even think he was famous when this movie came out, So that just sucks for Craig. Sorry Craig. So Jake goes home and walks in on his girlfriend having sex with another man, and he is devastated and he now needs somewhere else to stay. He tries to carry on with his life. We see him at interviews, auditions, we see him at acting class, and then he meets and befriends this guy named Sam who has a place for him to stay because Sam has been house sitting for a friend. This rich guys, I think also in the movie business. In the picture business. He's got one of my favorite movie props ever, the like bed that spins around. Oh yeah, it's good. Yea. So also I looked it up. The elevated circular house. It's just it's a house called what was it called the Chemisphere, and it's in l A. Was designed by John Lawtner in nineteen sixty and it's like this like private historic thing. I thought that was so interesting, just like the spaceship in the in the Hills. Does it still exist? Yeah, it's still there. It's a one story octagon on the San Fernando Valley side of the Hollywood Hills off of Mulholland. It's just sitting there. Let's go field trip. That's why I sort of assumed it was like a model. I don't know. I just was like, that doesn't exist, and I didn't ask any more questions. That's wild. It was declared in l a historical Cultural Monument in two thousand four. That's cool. Yeah, that's the vibe. But I thought it was interested. There's like a what's it called, like a little trolley that even brings you up to the house. I've never seen that in my life. Yeah, I know. I'm like, does that Whoever lives there has to go on a little roller coaster trolley ride every time they want to go home. It was wild. That is terrifying. You're like, oh, that's like, that's very exciting. But then also when you're going up to a place like that, you're like, oh, this is where I die. Like this is you know, there's no coming down. But no one dies in that house. They die in other houses, and they die in other houses. So Sam has been house sitting for a friend who lives in this house. But Sam is about to go out of town for this five week gig he has, so he arranges for Jake to stay at this place while Sam is gone. So Sam shows Jake around the house and he points out this telescope in the house with a view of a neighbor woman who dances all naked and sexy every night at the same time. And Jake is like, oh whooa and he spies on her for a really long time. It's all foamy And the music is the music woud the peeping music is so disturbing because it's so happy, right, because it's like, oh, la, la, isn't this so awesome that he's spying on her? Exactly. I've like seen arguments that like they're like, oh, I guess that, like the Pomo was accused of ripping off Hitchcock quite a bit because he did do that, Like it was because he didn't. I mean, this movie is literally Rear Window plus and Vertigo Vertigo, Yeah, exactly the hornier. But like some people have made the argument that they're like, Okay, he had been he had been received this criticism for so long that he's like I'm going to triple down and make it like I'm gonna make the worst movie ever. Um. So yeah, I like read a whole piece on The Independent that was like Body Double is De Palma's ultimate troll, which to me, I like saw what he was saying. But I was also like, um, but sometimes you just make a movie that sucks and it's not like a four a game of forty chess. I mean, yeah, in retrospect, it's probably like you can say anything you're being a troll, you know, if something sucks, you can be like I was trolling, Like that's a good cop out. Yeah, if you're called out on something that's my plan. I'm just like, yeah, when I when I make something that fucking flops, Like, yeah, that was that was supposed to Did I make you think I did that on purpose? Yeah? Exactly, exactly right. Okay. So he spies on this neighbor woman for a really long time, and then later that night he watches her again, but this time he sees a man in the room with her. It seems to be her boyfriend or husband, and Jake watches this guy hit the woman and then leave. The next day, Jake gets word that he's been fired from the vampire movie because the director doesn't want to deal with his claustrophobia. So he's even more down on his luck. And then that night he spies on the neighbor woman again doing her sexy naked dance. And it's the same naked dance every night, every night, always at midnight. He did get context for it later, but it is just so confusing to me that the character of like he's just like so he is a sardine essentially, because he just isn't asking questions that you need to be even as like a perverted sex criminal. He's not asking very obvious questions such as, why is it the same routine every day? Like yeah, yeah, I mean I won't get into like the actual plot, but I do think it's very funny that the plot rides on him being a creep, Like you know what I mean, Like he had to have started this all because he the person, knew he would look at her, Like that's that's the whole play rides on this guy, like proving that he's a creep. I just think that's and it goes off like nobody's business. And also I feel like it also rides on and it's like this, I don't disagree with this necessary like but like also him being very certain that he's not a creep, which is true of many creeps. But I'm not a creep. I'm a political activist, right There's like I'm a good guy. I was protecting her and then the detective, who I'm like, are we supposed to agree with the detective because I have a whole thing about that. Yeah, yeah, I thought the same thing. I was like for the first time or cop speaking a good point and then but I think the movie thinks no. But yeah, well we'll get into that a little ambiguous. Yeah, So he's watching Jake Sully's slash. Scully is watching the woman do her naked dance the same exact routine is before, and this time he notices another creepy guy watching her from a distance as well. The next day, Jake runs into the neighbor woman on the street. They're like both an intersection or there in their cars, and he sees the creepy guy from the night before also stalking this woman. So Jake follows the woman, presumably to keep an eye on her and like try to keep her safe question mark, And she goes to this shopping center. He watches her go into a store, peeps at her while she's trying on a pair of underwear, and meanwhile the creepy guy is still stalking her also, so Jake's kind of keeping an eye on both her and this other stalker. Jake then gets into an elevator with her. Wait before they get in the elevator, the first I believe the first line a woman has in the Hall movie has a woman calling security on Jake. I think it's like it's like over a half hour into the movie, because we've seen many women at this point, we've spent we spent minutes at a time, lingering on this dance routine. We see like there's a lot of Jake looking. I mean, the whole movie is Jake looking at women, and that's obviously on purpose. But even when he catches his girlfriend cheating on him, she just like stares at him of like oh, yike, right, and then and then he just leaves so she doesn't even get a line of dialogue. And then, yeah, the first time you hear a woman speak it is to call security on him for being a peeping tom on Gloria while she's getting changed in of fucking dressing room, but also protecting her. You're like, what, she leaves an enormous gap in the curtain of the dressing room, just like in the middle of it, and it's like that's not a choice that anyone makes the time. Well, yeah, it's like the way that the character characters are written in this movie are like completely irrational. But like, I did think it was funny that it takes a half hour for a woman this week, and then it's just like, we need to get this guy out of here. There's not a single crew member who's female or talks. There's not a single any even side character women voices, and I think, uh, because you see the woman in the store interact with the person he's stalking for like a minute, but you don't hear the conversation. So I was like, if we heard the conversation, maybe this would pass the test. But maybe not just talking about underwear. We're watching. We're watching the creepy is guy alive observing them having a conversation? Yeah, well staring at the Uh. This movie is so bizarre. Um yeah, yeah, I don't love it. I hate it. Um Okay, So Jake, so he's like kind of following and keeping an eye on everyone. He then gets into an elevator with her, but oh no, his cluster photo we h uh. And then she throws her old pair of underwear away after she's bought this new pair. Who knows. Wait, I thought it was the new pair. She throws away the old one. I think so because she where's the new one out of the store and she puts the old pair in the bag? Yeah, he was. It was a sniffing situation. So he he takes her old underwear out of the trash, and I do think he smells it. Yeah, And I mean not to king shame. But he as I say, but it's like, but she, you can't do that. You can't underwear from them without them knowing. Yes. So he takes her to wear out of the trash, and then he follows her to the beach, spies on her there, eavesdrops on her phone conversations, and then Jake see's the creepy guy again, the other sorry, the other creepy guy. He gets so close there. I was talking to kill It about this over text yesterday, where like in that scene where like he's watching her from like the tents on the beach, and then she looks at him, and the music swells as if to be like she does notice him, and you're like, oh my god, what's going on? And then two seconds later, Because honestly, I did strung able to like pay attention to this movie. It's really hard. I kept kind of getting distracted because there's all these long wing grief shots where it's like creepy and nothing is happening. So I looked down at my phone for ten seconds, and then I looked up again and he was like standing right behind her, and she had no idea. This is yet another example of like object of protagonist desire has no spatial awareness for plot reasons, it's so frustrating situation. So so he's on the beach now he's stalking this woman whose name we will learn is Gloria Revel. Pretty soon he's doing exactly what the other creepy guys doing, which is also stalking her. But Jake catches up to her and he's like, someone's following you and she's like, I know, and he's like, but it's not me, and it's like, yes it is, and also it's someone else, and just then the other creepy guy grabs her purse and runs off, so Jake chases after him, but the guy runs into a tunnel and Jake can't keep going because of his claustrophobia. So the guy takes something out of the purse, we're not sure what yet, and then he runs off. So then the woman catches up. Gloria catches up with Jake, and then they start making out for a while. Just kisses her for a while. It's uncomfortable, and it's also like, it looks like it makes me uncomfortable, but they also look uncomfortable. She looks uncomfortable because she's saying no no, yes, no, yes, no, not here because she's like into it, we're supposed to think for a while, and then she's like but no, I can't not here, and then she runs off. I kept waiting for that to be revealed to have been like a fantasy of Jake's, especially like the more it's completely irrational when it happens, but then as the plot goes on and it becomes this whole like bizarrow conspiracy, Hollywood something blah blah blah, Like it makes less and less sense the more you know, because the more you know, the more you're like, how does Gloria even know this guy exists? Like half the time he was peeping on her, it wasn't even hurt. Like it's so bizarre that she would want anything to do with this guy. Yeah, I kept waiting for it to be like the whole thing is a dream, but she's just so horny. But like that's the thing. Every woman in this movie is so ready to have sex, which no judgment on that, but it does not with Jake Scully, Like why does she make out with him when he just like starts kissing it? Like that didn't make And like you said, I thought it was going to be a fantasy, because there are other moments in the movie where he seems to be fantasizing about something, but like, it turns out not to be a fantasy. They actually kissed on the beach, and for some reason she was into it for a while. She runs off eventually. It's so like the camera angle on that scene where it's like spinning around them. It's supposed to be really like sweeping romantic and like, so again, I feel like even the camera work in the music is leading you to believe that this isn't actually happening, but then it just was. I thought so too, but then it just was confusing bad filmmaking. Okay. That night, Jake spies on Gloria in her home again with the telescope, and he sees the other creepy guy in her house now, so he tries to call her and warn her. He runs to her house to help her, but the creepy guy attacks Gloria with a large power drill and kills her. Jake breaks into her house to save her, but it's too late. She has been murdered. I guess the power drill thing is a thing in Scarface as well, and so everyone was just like, Okay, Brian de Palma is obsessed with power drills. I don't remember that. But it's also been like over fifteen years since I've seen Scarface. I'm realizing I don't like crime syndicate movies. I find them very boring. But we will cover The Godfather someday on this show, because it was because I think it would be funny. Yeah, well, yeah, someday. We cut to the cops at the scene of the crime and we meet Detective McLean, who questions Jake and he's like, you're the only witness, and also you're a peeping tom and a pervert, and I can see Gloria's underwear in your pocket right now, and kind of what that the whole scene. We were talking about it a little earlier, but you're like, first of all, it's disorienting because the cop appears to be correct, but also we're not supposed to, Like Brian to Paul was like a cab. The one time a cop is correct, it's like so exactly. Also in that scene, I feel like this is it just feels very nineteen eighties that in that scene and also very now, but like, particularly with like the mask offulness about it. The detective correctly says, like peeping is against the law. He could have like, he's like, I'm not gonna hold you. He says sexual harassed or like sexual something you said, like you're a sexual whatever he said, but the guy was like, no, I'm not. He calls him a sex offender, I think, and he's right, but then he's like, but I can't I can't hold you. I'm like, but you literally can you just correctly stated the crime he's committing. And then later on when like Jake calls him back, it's like talking his fucking Q and on bullshit. The detective is like, oh, it's if it isn't Hollywood's biggest sex offender. And I'm like, just arrest him, Like what do you mean? I just like, at every turn, At every turn, Jake makes it increasingly harder to root for him, you know what I mean, Like he's not really someone. It's just in the beginning you're like, oh, I feel bad, this guy got cheated on right in front of his face. And then you as the more you go on, you're just like, oh, he's terrible. Yeah, I have a whole thing about that. So the cop is questioning Jake, and this is when they start referring to the creepy stalker killer guy as the Indian because he appears to be an indigenous man. I didn't even think about that. The first thing I noticed about the creepy guy that they made him very ugly, like like his face was like melting off, and so I thought it was funny, like, oh, they're making the evil guy ugly, surprise, surprise, But then to call him like an Indian was so random to me. I was like, what, that's what you were going for this whole time, like a tan leathery man. Right. It almost felt like the movie tell on itself because I agree with you, like they like, it's an extremely offensive thing to say. And also I was like if they hadn't said that, I never in a million years would have guessed that that was what exactly they had been going for. So it makes it like twice as bad. And then it's like a fucking horror movie proce any spoiler alert, but like you have to watch this movie. So so we learned that. Then we see Jake watching porn and he sees because like the movie, then just as like, well, this murder happened. Let's have Jake watch porn like what to get over it to console himself, right, because he loves peeping. He loves watching. So he sees a performer named Holly Body played by Melanie Griffith, doing the exact same sexy dance in the porn film as Gloria was doing in her house while Jake was peeping on her, and he's like, wait a minute, why is that the same dance? So he goes and tries to get close to Holly, which he does by auditioning for a porn role opposite Holly. He gets the part. They do a scene together and then Jake pretends to be this rich porn producer and he acts like he wants to cast Holly in his movie, and again he's really starting to look like Bill Maher At this point. It's starting to get pretty disturbing. And it's also like, like, I don't know, Jake sucks so bad as a character, But like once he got to the point where he was pretending to I was like, what is even his end game? What is he doing? The movie got so confusing for me at this point because I just could not follow the jump between this murder and then suddenly he's like, I'm a porn actor. Now I'm like I couldn't follow his motive, Like why is he doing that? I didn't understand at first. And also I hated I really hated that they made him like into a good lover because like she was like really into it, and just like I really disliked that. But yeah, he also gets like ten shades darker when he becomes this Holliway producer, which I think is really weird. It's like a tan, like a Hollywood tan. He keeps getting creepier and creepier. So he's like, I want to put you in my movie. I also want to hire you for a private performance. So she goes to this place where he's been staying and then he's like, by the way, I'm not a porn producer. There's no movie that I'm trying to cast you in. What I need to know is did someone hire you to dance in the house across the way? And she reluctantly tells him yes, it was her dancing, and that Sam is the guy who hired her to put on this little show, knowing Jake would be watching it through the telescope. So Jake starts to piece together that Sam set up Jake to be the witness to this murder. He wanted Jake to watch the neighbor woman and hired Holly Body to be a body double for Gloria, and that basically, Sam, whose real name is Alexander Ravel a k a. Gloria's his wife or no, her husband, he wanted to kill his wife, Gloria, so he made sure Jake witnessed someone else committing the murder so that no one would suspect Alexander ravel While that this all kind of works out for him. Yeah, yeah, truly. So Jake is figuring all of this out. But Holly is pissed that Jake lied to her and lured her there under false pretenses, so she storms out, but oh no, she gets abducted by the creepy guy, the murderer. So Jake goes after her to save her, and then he comes upon them in a reservoir. The creepy guy is digging a grave to dump Holly body into. How do they? How do he find him? How did they? How did he find there? She was like running on foot from the cops. Right suddenly he knows where they are. I don't know. I don't know that is a plot hole. So but he finds them and Jake scuffles with the murderer um and he turns out to be Sam a k a. Alexander Revel, wearing a mask of apparently an indigenous person because again they keep calling him the Indian. But he's wearing this like fake prosthetic mask that Jake rips off of him, and it's revealed that he is Sam a k a. Alexander Ravel, and that he had just been wearing this mask every time that we saw that character. Then Jake ends up in the grave. He can't get out because of his claustrophobia, but then he has this like fantasy about how he's back on the set of the Vampire movie and he's able to overcome his claustrophobia in that moment and he's able to get out of the grave, but then Alexander's dog attacks. There's also a very anti dog agenda in this movie that I did not appreciate every dog, and also if you read the movie correctly, it is a good dog agenda, because all the dogs are like, let's kill Jake Scully, let's get him, let's get rid of him. He's dogs things, yes, but the dog knocks the bad guy into like the water at the reservoir, and then Jake helps Holly out of the grave and the dog dies with him. Right, the dog is just in the water now maybe dead um. And then Jake helps Holly out of the grave, but she's like, you're sick, you're a necrophiliac. And then she gets back into the grave and then just sits there and he's like, fine, stay in there if you do. You know though, that's how you know you've really found a vile person. If you're like I would rather literally hang in this grave then go to safety with you, So goodbye, And that's how the scene ends. That's how he's like, are you go? And then right, and then we cut away. It's like maybe, and then we cut away to Jake on set of the Vampire movie. He has apparently been hired back to play the part, and they're shooting a scene where the woman who is in the scene with him has a body double for the shots of her breasts. So, just when you thought there couldn't be any more l gays cinematography in this movie, the movie ends with just a long shot of the body doubles bare breasts the longest the longest shot on a boob I've ever seen in the movies ever, truly, and then the body double and the actor in this scene who's playing opposite Jake is being murdered actively by this vampire that Jake is playing. So that's how the movie ends, and we're like, who, I do think it's funny as a vampire. He has blonde slipped back here, so I think it's even more kind of Bill Murray but was better makeup. But I also think you skipped over something. There was a scene that I had to replay. But it's the musical on the set of the porn shoot. Yes, there's suddenly relaxed by what's I don't know who's. It just starts blasting and it's the band. It's the band who sings the song is performing. Maybe one of the only parts that I did like, Yeah, I like that part. I was like, whoa poor musical? Okay, I'm doubt But it's also confusing because because you realize that it's part of the porn movie that is being shot that Jake is in, but that's not clear for a while, so it just seems like Jake is just like in the sex club wearing glasses and there's someone singing directly at him even and I'm like, is this a fantasy? Is this what is happening? Is this like him going to a sex club for research? Like it's not clear what's happening. And then you're like, oh, I guess this is part of the porn movie. Sure, but you don't see the cameras until the actual sex scene. So it's like, what anyways, a little thirty seconds though or something. I really enjoyed music. It is fun. If I saw that without contacts for what the movie was, I'd be like, yeah, yeah, looks like a cool movie. So that is body double. Let's take another break and we will come back to discuss. And we're back, all right, So where shall we? I think that maybe starting with some a little bit of diploma context will like kind of set up the rest of the discussion, because I do feel like there are people who get I mean, I feel like this is true of all like you tour direct tools, but like I feel like this like this group of guys specifically, people really get their holes get all tense if you don't love it, which we've been dealing with this for years, but I just wanted to start by contextualizing where this comes in his filmography and what he said about the movie, because I do feel like it kind of like neutralizes any film boy like it's actually good. I'm like, I don't even think Brian de Palma thinks that, but go off. So this movie comes in like, like you said, she comes right after Scarface. It also comes um within a few years of his other major Hitchcock rip off, which is called Dressed to Kill. I haven't seen it. I have seen that very Hitchcock roop off. So it's basically a rip off of Psycho that there's been a lot of discussion around. It's very, very problematic. You should have to watch it eventually just to understand how weird it is. Right, Like, there's there's a very like it's about trans person who is a psychopath murderer. So you know, look, there's been that's a separate episode Michael Caine. Ok Right, that movie gets brought up in disclosure. I think, ye, yes, Okay, that's how I know it. Okay, yes, exactly. So that's like the era that he's in at this time, and I think we should just cover Dressed to Kill at a different time because we don't really have the bandwidth for it today. But so that's like sort of where he would like he's he's trying it not to be like completely reductive, but it just seems like he's kind of going for like edge Lord Hitchcock vibe at this phase in his career, like post production Code Hitchcock, where he's like, well, I can make a Hitchcock movie, but now really sexy and really like gratuitous nudity and violence and violence toward women. I can make it any phobic you want, transphobic, homophobic, yeah, misogynistic, whatever you whatever you want. It's you can do that now. Um not not us, like I mean, not advocating for the fucking production code, but like this is like kind of was where he was at at this time. I feel like it's interesting where a lot of movies we talked about from this era are considered to be very sexist in retrospect, this movie was also considered very sexist when it came out, which I think is like kind of unusual, especially, I mean whatever, We've covered a million movies from the eighties and nineties. I mean, I'm surprised to hear that, right, like you, I honestly, I don't trust people from the eighties. But there was a big backlash to this movie when it came out. It was not a hit. It was not reviewed well at the time. So let me see okay, So Vincent Canby of The New York Times says, de Palma quote again goes too far, which is the reason to see it. It's sexy and explicitly crude, entertaining and sometimes very funny. And then he just says, like it's a sexiest rip off of Hitchcock. So it gets like very very mixed reviews. The biggest point of contention when the movie comes out is the drill scene, which we'll talk about, but like that gruesome a murder of a woman who we barely know and barely get to hear speak also bothered viewers in the eighties. It sparked a lot of feminist backlash as well. But that was what bothered them the most. I didn't realize. I mean, I know it's bad, but if that's the one that the thing that bothered them the most, it's kind of weird to me. But he continued, Yeah, that that is like where the focus of most of the criticism. Like there's a lot of people that were like they lost me at the drill and not at the Peeping Thompson, which I feel like is the exactly Yeah, the drill isn't exactly like misogynistic per se. It's like gross but right, Okay. So and then as far as what de Palma says about this stuff, I mean, he's like I remember watching this came out maybe like five or six years ago. There was a documentary about his work where he was interviewed. It was made by like Noah Bomboch, and he was asked about how he frames and portrays women in his work because a lot of people, I think correctly think that he's really bad at it. Uh, and what he now, So de Pauma is kind of well, I'll just read the quote, but like kind of deflective and like the sort of thing where you're like you can tell and like someone's been asked the same question and they like maybe secretly know they're wrong and they're like, oh, this question again, and it's like, yeah, you've never answered it. Um Okay. So here's what he said a couple of years ago to Entertainment Weekly about body double. Specifically, he says, quote, I've been dealing with this all my career. Fortunately now Quentin Tarantino has to deal with it, so I don't have to deal with it anymore. Violence and women. He's the director who has the biggest persona in that area. In fact, we had a conversation about it once, which was funny. I say the same thing over and over again. If I can create a sequence where you're gazing at a woman or following a woman, it seems to me like a basic building block of cinema. I think it was Jean Luke Goddard who said the history of cinema is men photographic women. I mean, look at advertising. Every magazine cover is a woman. It draws the gaze of a man and the gaze of a woman who's looking at what she's wearing. We look at women all the time, look at the red carpet and can all they do is take pictures of women, and it dominates the coverage. It's so obvious to me. It's not thing I discovered. Unquote. So I feel like he is like pretty blatantly like, yeah, everyone's sexist, and that's why I am like, that's kind of like what a good defense. I mean, I just looked up. I was honest Wikipedia, I was curious about like his romantic life. Nothing weird there. But there is a quote that I'm seeing on Wikipedia because he responded to these accusations saying, I'm always attacked for having an erotic, sexist approach, chopping up women, putting women in peril. I'm making suspense movies. What else is supposed to happen to them? Yes, I yeah, that's another one. I thought like he's extremely like learning about his attitude towards the subject, maybe like the movie even less because I thought, like, I mean, there's nothing to be said for being openly misogynistic. But it is a little bit surprising to hear someone not even bothered to make up a weird lie about it. I guess I appreciate that he's like, yeah, I'm sexist, you could believe it. But and a lot of people take it take it which is but people think it's like this reflective self conscious awareness thing. That's the thing that that that is most of his defense for other from other people anyway. But right, so yeah, like all the all the defense I was reading of this movie rest on Brian de Palma being aware of things that he is saying he doesn't care about. So I just feel like, you know whatever, it's a movie, think whatever you want. It's not a particularly influential movie, and I'm happy for that. But yeah, I feel like he's basically given you all the information you need. He's given us all the clues Mr police Man, Mr Policeman, much like Jake Scully. So anyways, that's that's the context of the movie. And it made me really um dislike Brian de paul personally seriously, right, because so this movie can basically just be summarized as a movie about a man leering at a woman without her knowledge or consent, following stalking, eaves dropping on this woman, stealing her underway, like all this stuff. And of course this lends to a lot of leering male gaze cinematography, maybe more so than in any movie I've ever seen, which, like you could argue, matches up with the leering and peeping that Jake is doing. So that's why the choice is made. But like that just me like, you just made a movie about a man leering, and that's you made a movie about a sex offender, right, and why are you doing that without making any actual commentary, you're just following a sex offender sefender, like right, a sex offender who is like certain he's not a sex offender, which the movie does not do very much to push back on. I feel like the most of the movie does is have the detective repeatedly be like, what's up, sex offender and in a few moments with hot with Holly where she is correctly like, you need to get away from me, but like, but I don't. I still think the movie is essentially like I don't know. It seems like the movie is kind of behind him definitely, because I think when the cop challenges him and calls him a sex offender and a pervert and a peeping tom and all that stuff, I think this is the movie just framing the cop as being an obstacle for the protagonist who we are supposed to be rooting for, more than the movie actually making any commentary on stalkery sex offender behavior. Because again, this character who is stalking and and peeping and doing all man or of other horrible things, this is the guy we're supposed to be rooting for, and even though he's doing the same exact things, what the antagonist is doing. It's because Jake's intentions are like quote unquote pure and like to keep a woman safe and like all this stuff. It's actually fine that he's a stalker according to the movie, and like you mentioned Stream, like the movie does all these things to frame Jake in such a way that we are meant to sympathize with him, because, yeah, he got his heartbroken by his cheating girlfriend, he got fired from the movie that he's on. He has childhood trauma and claustrophobia, like all of these things that are there to make the audience empathize and sympathize with him. And he is like trying to save women in peril from this quote unquote evil Indian and he's this you know, quote unquote safe white man, and there's a whole conversation to be had about that. But he has these intentions of, oh no, I'm only stalking to save this woman from this other stalker, and that's what the whole movie is predicated on. And I do hate it. Yeah, I think, yeah, I think two things. One, he gets everything he wants in the end, so obviously it's like you're meant to root for this person that like gets his career back. Also, Holly is on set when he is shooting this, so it's like, presumably they've made up. Maybe they're even fucking I don't know. Oh wait, I didn't even notice that. Yeah, she's there. Yeah. And the other thing is it's not like novel, but two people can be creeps, and if one is ugly, that's the bad guy, you know what I mean, Like, I think someone not being like hideous and being white and like kind and quotes looking like I think that gets such a pass. And because the other guy is like hideous to look at, it's obvious to be like, oh, that is the bad guy. And I think that is where some people's wires get cross because they're like, well, that guy, he looks like a good person. He's trying to protect her. But if he looked ugly, you want to think that, right, And it's like it's the it's the Steve bushemy principle. It's the effect. And it's also like I don't know, Like again, I just don't see the argument for like this being commented on in the movie because it's like he wins in the end, and it's like, I I don't know, I mean I try to like engage. Yeah, like he he ends up fine, even though, and then there's this kind of like bizarre, complicated like interaction with once he gets involved in the porn industry. I feel like it's almost like conflating what Jake does, which is sex crimes, with the porn industry, where there are certainly ethical issues and like there's you know, plenty of reporting about how performers are not kept as safe as they need to be, and there's certainly a lot, but it's it's just I feel like generally casts the entire industry is like hedonistic and debaucherous and the same thing as being a peeping tom essentially, and like that is like super reductive, especially when like Holly is like the only character of any gender in the movie who seems to have like a shred of dignity, Like she's I really liked when because she's brought into Jake's life under false circumstances, like he is lying to her. But in that first scene where they go to the bar together after the shoot, she like states her like baseline right away, and she's like, this is how much money I make, this is what I will do, This is what I won't do. These are non negotiable things, what do you think? And like that's kind of your introduction to who she is, and so of all the things in this movie, I fucking really don't like. I did like that she, I mean, she sees Jake for who she is, even if the movie doesn't share that opinion or whatever. And she also like knows what she is willing to do, would not do, Like she's very like firm and who she is. And again it's like it's interesting, and again it's like whatever, I know, we can't say like what the movie's opinion is explicitly. But I liked seeing porn star, you know, be portrayed as someone who is like in control of their life and like, because that's like very often the case, and I feel like they're rarely portrayed that way in media. And but then every other character outside of Holly the movie is not portrayed that way at all, and so you're just like what, um, I liked Holly a lot. I didn't like that she appears to stay in Jake's life after, because, like you're saying, the last time you see her, she's hiding from him in a grave. So like under what circumstances did they overcome that? I don't know, but I liked that she told them to funk off kind of at every appropriate term, But then the movie forces them together in some regard in the end. Anyways, I think it was confusing, though, because at first I thought of it as a continuation of his fantasy, because it was because we we had just seen the fantasy of him being able to do the coffin scene, to be able to get out of a grave, and so part of me was like, is this a continuation of that timeline or like what he wants? Like I wondered that too, But the movie doesn't set up enough of a precedent for him having these fantasies really that it was clear whether or not that was a fantasy, because there's that other scene that we already talked about where we're like, is this a fantasy or no, where he's kissing Gloria on the beach, and that turns out not to be a fantasy. So I don't know, so unclear. It's confusing. It's and the way okay, and then Glorious character, as we've been talking about throughout, I can't make as their tails of what's going like truly written to be oblivious. It's just like a waif, like hot white, rich lady who cannot We were just talking about this, I mean in a very different movie. We're talking about the forty year old virgin, but like a characters who is like so aimless and underwritten in horny that they don't notice home intruders, like right behind the door. She glides by him at every moment. He's just like there's one moment where she answers the phone and he's literally like two ft behind her and she just doesn't see him because her back is turned. It's it's so bizarres. And it's the same thing with Jake when he's standing right behind her, like he's like looming above her on the balcony at the beach shortly before they're making out for no reason, and you're just that is really started, that trope is really starting to bother me. Um, hot woman with no spatial awareness, and you're just like, oh my god. That is like most marginalized people are like hyper aware of who's around them. I would have to be. You have to be for your own safety. This is something that I've talked about a lot especially in horror movies, where I feel like I'm victim blaming because I'm like, how did you not notice this? Or why did you do this thing to get you killed? It's not a real person, it's a Brian de Palma person, right, But it's always characters, female characters written by men, who are written in such a way that they're oblivious because it serves the story and not because that's how anyone actually behaves in real life. The same thing with like the she leaves like an eight inch gap in the curtain of the dressing room, right, you wouldn't do not because anyone does that, but because the movie needs to allow Jake to peep on her as she's putting a new pair of underwear on. Like, I just I hate and I and I hate I hate that I am doing this kind of victim blame me thing, But it's not. It's not victim blame me if it's written that way, right, Like the men are writing them in a way that they have sperienced life. Yeah, I still always feel weird about it, but yeah, it's it's like I'm blaming these female characters who don't actually exist and who are underwritten by men. Who don't know how women actually behave and don't know that we are constantly on guard for our own safety at every waking moment. Terrified of them. Yeah we're not even or like yeah that it's like not that we're terrified of them, We're actually in love with them, which is one of the fucking scariest things you can perpetuate in your mood. Like I know a million people who have experienced ship like that of like a creepy person who like is convinced that you know exactly who they are and you're just like playing hard to get and someday you're going to be together and it's gonna be very romantic and cool. And it's like that is just like not really a thing that happens, but perpetuating it put women in danger all the time. Like I don't know, I've been in situations like that, like and it's it's always very I can't believe that wasn't a fantasy sequence. Like both from like a writing perspective and from like a bectelcast perspective, it is just like what the fuck like And it also like I don't even really know that it like moves the plot forward in any way for that to be true, the movie could Yeah, like the movie could play out the exact same way if that didn't happen totally, yeah right, Like, but I think it added to this illusion or this lie that he's just like amazing lover that women want to fuck, you know what I mean, Like I painted that element of his character very very much, right, because it just it further just establishes him as a likable and empathetic character or a character who we are supposed to empathize with because oh, if he look at him, go, he's he's a sexpot and he makes women come and isn't that cool? And it's like, first of all, no, he doesn't, and secondly, he's a fucking creep. Right Yeah, It's just it's so frustrating and yeah, whatever, Like I'm trying to think of other like I mean, I mean it's interesting because I feel like, not even that much happens in this movie. It's two hours long, but there's just it's all very At least an hour of it is just shots of Jake following a woman like there's very little, and then she's brutally murdered, which seride, I agree with you, like because I like, I mean, look, I'm I'm a soft franchise head. I like to see someone die in a brutal way. I don't like to see a character I know fucking nothing about who I've never seen make a shred of sense in the entire movie brutally murdered with a drill. But you also kind of don't see her brutally murdered with a drill. I think it is far more disturbing to see her followed around, Like I felt more nervous watching herp followed for an hour by multiple people then watching her get murdered by a drill. And I don't think that's the unpopular opinion, unfortunately, because one of those things happens all the time. I don't know, peeping truly fucking terrifies me because you know what happens all the time. Yeah, you can also say the drill is like phallic as well, which is also like another layer, Like I'm sure some film studies professor is talking about that right now, exactly. I don't think this film even had a chance, or like gave itself a chance of passing the Beachdale test. Like there's two women that we see in the movie. One of them is very like has two words that she says and the other one and then gets murdered. Yeah, and then the other one isn't isn't introduced until an hour into the movie, and she oh, she does. Well, we'll get to this. But the other major topic of discussion for this movie is and kind of going back to what you were discussing Sharene about the well, one of these stalkers is quote unquote safe because he's classically handsome, and then also is he sorry, but he's not hideous. I don't think he's handsome, but he's like not he's he looks like a good guy, like in quotes you know what, right, he is not being others like down slanted like puppy eyes or whatever. He does have like a kind looking face. He looks like a little dog to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a Bilmar. I think I think I'm just reacting to him looking like Bill Mar. Yeah, that it is. It continues to be very distracting, but the audience is he's framed in such a way by the movie, by the filmmakers to be, you know, the handsome, safe white guy. And then the other stalker who the movie telegraphs to the audience is evil and he's the stalker you have to be scared of. Uh. And then he has come to known as the Indian, and for a large chunk of the movie, we are led to believe that an unnamed Indigenous man is a creepy stocker murderer, which obviously has very racist and harmful implications that you know, like as a woman and as a white woman especially, right, that's the type of person that you have to be afraid of, these non white strangers who lurk in the shadows, even though statistically, and we've talked about this all the time, not the women who are survivors of assaulter who are stocked and murdered are usually done so by people they know, and often it's their own partners, which turns out to be true in this movie because the Indian quote unquote is just her husband in a mask. But the movie is like not operating on a high enough level to like be able to land that point, right. It could have been an interesting point because I feel like that scene with the detective, there's just like so much going on there. But I feel like one of the reasons that he lets Jake go other than the fact that he doesn't care about women experiencing harassment and murder obviously, is that he is, you know, like many cops and just many people in general. He's like, well, normally I would go after the husband on this one, but you said that it was an indigenous man, and I believe that. And it's like, well, why do you believe that even though there's literally no proof of it, because cops are racist, And it's like that could have been a point that the movie could have made, but it isn't because it's like everyone I kept wanting to think that this could be making some sort of commentary, but it's just like it just never ever was because when you hear that character being referred to as the Indian, it's accepted as a truth across the movie, across the cake, to the point where like even the guy wearing this mask refers to himself as the Indian, and so you're just like, Okay, so this is just something that the writers of the movie believe. Is like, it's it's not making a point that like this character is racist, and that is why this is being accepted as the truth. It's just like perpetuating a racist Trump, but like, yeah, you're right there, they didn't give it a reason. Like the movie as it is now, there is no reason he needs to be Indian, not that he needs a reason, but if he was, if it was pointed out to be a larger commentary, at least there would be like an indication of why they even had to make him not white or something. But the fact that it's just like sprinkled in and just presented as yeah, like you said, like all the characters think it's truth immediately, no one questions it. It's just so disturbing. I just it's almost as if like the writers just think this is true. Yeah, the movie is operating on the assumption and that the audience will have no trouble believing that, yeah, some random stalker guy unknown to the victim is just peeping on her, stalking her, and then will later kill her because he is non white, and it's just like would have been true. Like it's so I just I mean, I'm just speaking of like the races of ofies America. Like I'm just saying, like I don't even think that this would have been a particularly offensive take in right, right, And yeah, I think the movie is just operating on that. Well, of course the audience will be like, yeah, it was this right, like he did witness this, you know, this indigenous man murdering this woman, because that's how little audiences of the eighties thought of non white people. So that fucking sucks. I apologize for me. Just watch this movie. I just need to say that I had no idea what this was about. I just thought it would be a fun ride. I mean, I mean, maybe it was worth it for that poor musical scene. But no, don't apologize. I mean we were going to cover it eventually, and we've gotten this request a bunch of times. It's always kind of fun when we cover a movie from our popular request list and then we immediately realize why people have been requesting it because they're like, oh, they're gonna hate this. You're like, oh, that's not nice. But yeah, we sure did. We sure did hate it. I mean, my curiosity is satisfied. I've been curious about this movie. I know what it is now, and I will forget about it, hopefully in a week, you know what I mean, Like, I, yeah, fortunately, I don't think this movie is going to stick with me. No, Yeah, does anyone have anything else they want to talk about. Um No, But I mean to your point, though, it is nice to watch a movie that was not bad and then immediately talk about how much how bad it is what other people? You know what I mean? Like, it's like a nice to like bash a movie and then move on. Other than it's sitting with you and lingering thank you for the podcast, is what I'm saying. I love hating movies. It's I love hating movies almost almost as much as I love loving movies. So I'm not mad about this. I love watching a terrible movie that I hated and absolutely dunking on it. So Melanie Griffith deserved so much better, truly bless her. Yeah, And so this movie, like it's is also I think, an entirely white movie on top of having a very racist plot point. I don't think I saw anyone who wasn't white in Los Angeles on the set. There's one black guy that drags him out at the coffin and he's like, oh, get rid of this person. And the black guy is just like obedient and follows the raising a crew member, which I thought was just like, this is the one person of color you put in here? And he's just like, I don't know, barely has lines and that he's forgotten about. Yeah, so I just yeah, like this just feels like all the bad tropes associated with this era of filmmaking plus more, which is wild. I really hated this movie and it doesn't pass the Buckteal test. There is a scene where two women and I think the other woman is named it's that scene where Jake is with Hollybody. They run into another actor that Jake has met and worked with before. They do talk to each other about like a role, but there's a misunderstanding because Holly thinks that the other woman is another porn star. This other actor is a non porn actor and thinks that Holly is a non porn actor and they but they never it never gets cleared up, but they do talk, and I would probably completely forgot about that. Oh no, does that mean it passes. I think it might pass because they talk about like movies and acting and roles and stuff. A man gets mentioned, and they're also like, I'm so mad that this passes. But it's also like a woman who's we only see in that one scene. Also, you could cut that scene from the movie and it wouldn't really, it wouldn't make a difference. You could cut that scene. Yeah, so it's I guess you could make the argument, but I still say it does also vibes. Sometimes you make a vibes exception. But also like, even if this does pass, it doesn't mean that the movie is like any better or a feminist masterpiece or anything like that. It just means that I don't want to give it anything. Just means that Brian to Palma gave one more woman three lines and called it a day. Yeah, it's like and I and and that's inclusion and let me pat myself on the back about it. Progressive hero Brian de Palma, she has darker hair. So diversity is a girl as a woman with darker hair. That's what that is. Um, So that's a that's the back, Dilton. How about our nipple scale where we rate the movie? You saw a lot of nipples in this movie too. We do see a lot of nipples, and yet I don't have any for it. No, because we write the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples based on how we think the movie does when looking at it through an intersectional feminist lens. And I I would give this movie zero nipples same because of everything we've talked about, it's just a movie that sort of revels in a woman being stalked and peeped on and murdered and again more male gaze cinematography than I've seen in any other movie. And that's like, that's a bar to clear. That is a bar to clear. It's all like leering shots, like the longest shot I've ever seen on a boob, like it just I just I've never had so much attention on on boob for so long. And it is like a very like headless woman of Hollywood thing where even though we see that woman's face briefly, it does like tilt down to her chest and lingers there for a very long time. And then the whole rest of the movie is just a woman being leered at through a telescope or a woman being stalked, or a woman being lied to. And that's the premise of the movie. And it's because it's like we have like and this is not like an indictment against movies with erotic themes. There's plenty of like erotic movies that fucking rule. It's just like the way it's bound framed and who's looking at it? Yeah, we just covered bound that that's an erotic movie. The fucking rules. That movie's really fun, but it's like, yeah, it's all about like who is looking what are they looking at? And is their consent implied? And in this movie is like no, no, no, no, no, all the way across the board. So that sucks and it's racist and Ura Nipples and I hated it. Zero nipples really had an unfortunate time. I want to give it a half nipple only for Melanie Griffith and like her. I did like her character. Yeah, it wasn't totally terrible, but that she's the only reason I would even consider giving this movie any praise. It's bad. It is a bad movie. Yeah. And it's so long. It felt it so long. It's very and it feels longer than it is because so much of it is just like boring shots of a woman being like people walking and one person following another person while they're both walking, and it's like snooze. The last thing I'll say is that uh diploma did want a porn actress to play the part of Holly originally, which I think is like actually pretty interesting, but then the producers Slash Studio were like, absolutely not, we won't release the movie, which is just like another indication of the added towards porn actors at this time. Um, but he did have someone in mind, and like, I guess like I had the idea for this movie when he was interviewing Janice Dickinson's body double from UM, what's that movie that we were talking about that's really really transphobic and dressed to kill? Dressed to kill? Um, But yeah, he did want to cast a porn actor, but then um Mr Hollywood said no, No. I'm honestly surprised that in Body Double, Melanie Griffith's character wasn't written to also be in on this like murderous scheme, which is something that would have like further demonized, you know, sex work and porn work and stuff. And I'm I'm surprised that didn't happen, which is just indicative of how movies like this, especially from this era, viewed sex work and pornography. And then I think it is like a little complicated by the fact that because Jake is so awful, but the movie doesn't think Jake is awful, and Jake ends up becoming a porn actor. So I feel like the movie isn't anti porn really like but but that's like a fucking weird math problem that I don't really want to do. Absolute last thing because I thought this was funny. I was like, was this movie nominated for any awards? And I feel like there was some justice here because Di Palma was nominated for the Golden Raspberry Award for Worst Director, Oh my god for this movie. Yes, and Melanie Griffith was nominated for a Golden Globe okay for playing Hollie. That is justice. Yeah, so I was like, Okay, this movie has like a seventy six on Rotten Tomatoes, but it also really was a flop at the box office, so that makes me feel good. Yeah, I don't think it's I think it is like a hot take to like this movie then and now, um, and we we don't have a hot take, and I think we have the general take, which is that, um, I don't want to ever think about it again. Chervine, thank you so much for coming back and breaking because this movie. Oh you're so welcome, Jamie and Caitlin. This was fun though. Thanks for thanks for having me back. I'll come back anytime. Maybe I won't choose the movie, but no, this was good. I'm glad that we got to vent about it because I had so many I had watched it last night and I was just like having so many thoughts and I was like, what was that? What did I just see? It? Is? It is very cathartic to air your grievances about a movie that you hate. It really was, and I feel like now we can forget about Brian to Palmer for another two years exactly, and that's always a blessing. Where can people follow you online and check out your stuff and plug away? I'm on social media Twitter and Instagram. My Twitter is shiro Hero six six six in my Instagram is just Shiro Hero. I'm making a very big effort and I'm doing really well and not being online very much, so I'm really looming a lot of things. But I occasionally post up here and there if I'm spiraling and depressed. So come along join the ride. You can follow us on those places as well, Instagram and Twitter at Bechtel Cast. You can subscribe to our Patreon a k a. Matreon where we do to bonus episodes every single month, plus access to our our back catalog of one hundred over one hundred episodes. This month, it's Minions March Baby, and you know what that means. We're covering Despicable Me and the Forty year Old Virgin, So it's actually, um there's two options. You can call it Medians March, or you can call it Gruella Steville. Or you can call it Corrella Steville because it's Steve Correll playing um fucked up people. So that so if that doesn't sell you on it, I don't know what will will. You can also get our verch at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast, and if you guys don't mind, I'm going to actually have my body double switch in for the next episode. Uh. They sound exactly like me, but but they're not me. So it's like a voice double too. It's my voice double. Yeah yeah yeah cool cool yeah, Well I look by