AvTalk Episode 344: UPS flight 2976

AVT 344 Transcript
EPISODE 344
[EPISODE]
[0:00:08] IP: Hello and welcome to episode 344 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, here, as always
with –
[0:00:15] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Good seeing you this week, Ian. That was a nice surprise.
[0:00:19] IP: Yes. That was a nice thing that we made happen. Thanks for coming over, and we
enjoyed a meal together, and you entertained my kids, which was very, very kind of you.
[0:00:31] JR: I think you got an extra half a breath in that day, when I was –
[0:00:35] IP: Maybe.
[0:00:36] JR: - distracting the 19 of them, I think, at one point they were there. Thanks for
dinner. That was nice.
[0:00:43] IP: My pleasure.
[0:00:43] JR: Sometimes we actually see each other in person.
[0:00:46] IP: Sometimes. Sometimes. You're back in New York, and we are back.
[0:00:51] JR: What a week, man. What a week. It's only Wednesday. We record this on
Wednesday, and this has been the longest month so far, these three days.
[0:01:00] IP: Let's start in Louisville. UPS Airlines flight 2976 crashed very shortly after takeoff
yesterday on November 4th in Louisville. The MD-11 freighter aircraft registered N259UP was
departing Louisville for Honolulu, fully loaded for the eight and a half hour flight. What we know
now is the left engine, the number one engine separated from the aircraft, and based on visual
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evidence captured at the scene, we believe the number two engine, so the tail mounted engine
suffered a possible compressor stall.
The aircraft managed to gain height off the runway, clear the airport fence, then struck a UPS
warehouse just outside the airport perimeter, and then impacted the ground in an industrial area
just south of the airport. The takeoff roll began at 22.12 UTC, becoming airborne at about 22.13.
The final position that we received was at 22.13.30, and that was south of the airport again. The
post-crash fire extended a half mile, because the aircraft struck a waste oil recycling facility.
[0:02:40] JR: Oh, geez.
[0:02:43] IP: Between the amount of fuel onboard the aircraft, which was loaded for an eight-
and-a-half-hour flight, and the waste oil recycling facility, that fire was massive, burned through
most of the evening, and covered, as the NTSB says, a half mile.
[0:03:03] JR: Miraculously, at least, don't want to undersell it, but 11 people killed as of now,
that, I believe, includes the flight crew of the UPS MD-11.
[0:03:13] IP: Of which there were three crew members onboard.
[0:03:16] JR: Three crew members. You hate to see even that number of people killed in a
crash like this, but it is astounding that the number is not significantly higher, as there are a lot of
airports around the world where a crash of that magnitude, very short of the field, just extending
out from the runway a little bit, is a whole lot more populated than what was going on there at
Louisville, which is UPS's world port. That is a major, major facility for them, and I believe one of
the buildings it struck was actually a UPS facility, a sorting facility. Again, not at all minimizing
the death here, but there are a lot of places where this would be a much, much bigger death toll.
[0:03:59] IP: Yeah, absolutely. What we know so far from the initial NTSB briefing today from
the NTSB board member Todd Inman, we know that both the cockpit voice recorder and flight
data recorder have been recovered, so both black boxes have been recovered. Both sustained
heat exposure, he didn't say damage, or clarified that they were not damaged, but did sustain
heat exposure. However, the NTSB believes that both of those flight data recorders, the cockpit
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voice recorder and flight data recorder will be able to be read and downloaded. They are going
to begin that process this week and we’ll hopefully have more information in a future briefing.
We also know that the number one engine detached from the wing on the airport property.
That's what the NTSB confirms. The visual evidence that we've seen, there are photographs of
what appears to be most of the engine core –
[0:05:00] JR: Intact.
[0:05:01] IP: - on the airfield. Some very interesting things about that, one, the engine core
appears to be in mostly intact. Two, the engine inlet nacelle is also about half intact in roughly
the same area, and that was the left engine. Both pieces ended up on the right side of the
runway.
[0:05:30] JR: Yeah. I mean, we've seen accidents in the past where just the inertia from these
moving parts can fling engine debris halfway across an airport. I mean, I'm thinking back to the
767, American 767 at Chicago O'Hare, which didn't a piece of that engine end up a mile away
on the roof of –
[0:05:51] IP: In a UPS warehouse.
[0:05:52] JR: In a UPS warehouse. There you go. There's some call back. When this stuff
departs the aircraft, it does so with a lot of energy. How it ended up, where it did, the NTSB
likely knows, because they said there is video surveillance from the airport, and I'm sure they
will make that clear. If not in the initial report we'll get within a month, but in the final report, we
will get eventually.
[0:06:16] IP: Yeah, eventually. This is obviously a very, very early days yet. They have not even
announced all of the parties to the investigation yet. Still gathering preliminary information. Still
learning more. Unfortunately, it sounds like there are still people unaccounted for, who may
have been either working in businesses within that area, or customers of those businesses.
Unfortunately, it sounds like the death toll will rise, though we don't know by how much. As we
learn more throughout the week, I'm sure we'll come back to this next week and discuss what
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we've learned in the interim either through NTSB updates, or updates from local authorities as
well.
[0:07:06] JR: Yeah. I think I read the NTSB has 30 investigators, or something like that.
[0:07:11] IP: 28 investigators on the ground by the end of the day today. I'm not sure if that's a
record number, but it is certainly a larger number than we have seen with previous
investigations, though the crash in Washington being located near the NTSB may have been –
[0:07:33] JR: Ian, a bit of a different story there.
[0:07:34] IP: More staff there.
[0:07:36] JR: I assume it's such a high number, just because the crash site itself is less of a
site, so much is a streak half a mile long, they said. They're going to have to comb, and a
tremendous amount of area, not just the exact area where the aircraft impacted, but also
everywhere around where that may have been to find any and every piece of that aircraft that
they could cobble back together to tell the story of what happened to this aircraft. Remember,
they're doing this all during government shutdown when they're not getting paid, and I'm sure
everything they're doing that involves money, be it getting fed, eating, getting hotel room, rental
car, whatever the NTSB needs to do to investigate a crash, I'm sure is much harder right now
than it ever is and needs to be, at least here on US soil. Really, hats off to them for dealing with
a tragic situation made even more difficult by what's going on at the federal level right now.
[0:08:38] IP: Yeah. Two points there. One, the FBI is assisting the investigation as they begin to
collect the physical evidence. They are conducting a visual investigation along the area of
impact and post-impact fire. The FBI is assisting with the physical collection of evidence,
photography and the like. The NTSB is conducting aerial surveys at the moment, including
drone surveys. And Inman did mention it that they have recalled some employees to work that
had been not working during the government shutdown to facilitate the investigators’ logistical
needs during this investigation. Good to see that they are moving through that process and they
will click it there as quickly as they did. We'll have more on this story in the coming weeks. I am
sure. Definitely next week as we learn more than throughout the time as briefings continue. As
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Jason mentioned, we are in the midst of week five of the US federal government shutdown,
which means –
[0:09:48] JR: The longest ever.
[0:09:50] IP: The longest ever now. Yes. At 36 days that is now the longest ever, which means
that multiple paychecks are about to be missed by federal staffers, including air traffic
controllers. Beginning last week, the number of staffing triggers at air traffic control facilities
around the country increased. Some of that was due to perhaps, trick or treating on Halloween,
three-day weekends and things like that. However, it seems that the Department of
Transportation has decided that enough is enough as far as what safety they are willing to see
slide, or let decrease. The Department of Transportation has decided that it will begin as of
Friday, should the government remain shut down, cancel 10% of flights, scheduled flights in 40
major markets across the country. This is breaking news, so we don't have any details on what
those 40 major markets are. We don't have any details on how those cuts will be meted out. We
don't have any details on which airlines will be impacted or if they will be impacted equally. What
we do know is that's going to be thousands of flights per day.
[0:11:10] JR: Yeah. Not great right now, since we literally don't know anything. The DOT isn't
updating its website, because of the shutdown. The latest news is from October 30th there,
which I think was during the shutdown. I guess, they're putting some stuff through, but not
others. It's really hard even to get some information on what's going on. 10% at 40 major
markets, that's like every other airport becoming Newark, which is not what you want to see. At
least here in the Northeast, we all know that the air traffic control system has been beyond its
breaking point for years at this point. This essentially rolls that over to 40 other markets, which I
can only assume is Miami, Dallas, Chicago, L.A., Seattle, San Diego, whatever. It's going to be
painful and it's going to be on the airlines to figure out what 10% of flights do they want to cut
and how do they want to handle those passengers, because loads are also pretty high right
now.
This is not great, but it's necessary. Air traffic controllers are getting pushed beyond their
breaking points. They've already been working six-day work weeks and mandatory overtime for
years, doing that now on top of not getting paid. They can't do that forever. This seems like
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slapping a band-aid on top of a band-aid that itself is on top of a band-aid that has been rotting
away for years. Will it help? Maybe. Maybe not. They got to do something at this point.
[0:12:41] IP: Yeah. I think this is one of those things where it can't hurt, but I'm not sure it really
helps.
[0:12:52] JR: Yeah. It relieves some of the pressure, but not enough that I'm sure really is going
to matter. Just yesterday, I flew from Chicago O’Hare to LaGuardia and it was one of those days
where it was windy here. So, pretty much everything was delayed. But everything seemed
normal, dare I say, where flights were delayed. They were undelayed. EDTCs were issued.
They were advised. Things seemed to be working. I'm just thinking behind the scenes, their
traffic controllers don't have to do this. They can half-ass their job and say, “Oh, it's windy at
LaGuardia today. Everything's delayed nine hours.” But they didn't do that. They're professional.
They're doing their job. They're doing it safely.
I'm not sure knocking 10% off the top is really going to make that much of a difference. It seems
performative. I'm torn between it's better than nothing and it's not going to do anything at all. I
don't know. We can't keep doing this forever. Like we've talked about before, the last
government shut down pretty much ended because of air traffic controllers, but that doesn't
seem like it's going to do the trick this time.
[0:14:02] IP: Yeah, but canceling thousands of flights each day. I mean, we're going into one of
the busiest travel seasons of the year.
[0:14:12] JR: Yeah. Thanksgiving is right around the corner. I don't want to pick on DC, but if
the FAA wants to trim a little more than 10% at DCA, that'll send a real message.
[0:14:24] IP: It certainly would.
[0:14:25] JR: 30, 40, 50.
[0:14:27] IP: Let's look at some financials, because that's always fun. In this case, Spirit
AeroSystems lost 724 million dollars in the third quarter of this year.
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[0:14:38] JR: That’s Boeing’s problem now. Who cares?
[0:14:40] IP: Almost. Yes. The loss wasn't an operating loss. It was a most of the loss, more
than 500 million dollars of it was a carry forward loss. Basically, for tax purposes. However, they
still lost 200 million dollars just from losing money.
[0:15:00] JR: They lost 200 million dollars from losing money. That is the analysis you can only
get from us. If you want to go details, you go to The Air Current, or you go to another podcast. If
you want to know that they lost 200 billion because they lost money, you're at the right place.
[0:15:19] IP: They've lost 2 billion dollars so far this year. but Boeing is set to acquire them by
the end of the year and it will then be their problem.
[0:15:27] JR: All right, problem solved.
[0:15:28] IP: Spirit actually improved its performance in the third quarter, believe it or not. If
we're measuring this on how many airplane parts get delivered to customers, they actually
improved. Across their entire portfolio, they went from 332 ship sets in Q3 of last year to 392 of
this year. They delivered, if we're just breaking out, Boeing, 97 37 MAX fuselages this year in
Q3, versus 64 last year. Operationally, while they're still losing money, they're better at doing
what they're supposed to be doing.
[0:16:11] JR: I guess, that's good news.
[0:16:13] IP: We'll take it.
[0:16:14] JR: When you hit rock bottom, there's only one way to go.
[0:16:17] IP: There you go. Hey, speaking of rock bottom, let's talk about Spirit, the airline.
[0:16:21] JR: Oh, different kind of Spirit, same kind of Spirit, I guess. Things are not going well.
Our friend, Ned Russell, tells us that Spirit is removing itself from five additional cities, cutting
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nine routes, gone entirely from the map as of January 2026. They are not insignificant cities, I
would say. Milwaukee, gone. Phoenix, gone. Rochester, New York, gone. St. Louis, Missouri,
gone. Bucaramanga, Colombia, BGA, haven't heard of that one before, gone. A mixed bag
there, but cutting Phoenix entirely. I don't know how you remain an airline in the United States
without operating to cities like Milwaukee and Phoenix. Those are big cities, last I checked.
[0:17:09] IP: I mean, yeah. Phoenix has been what? One of the fastest growing cities in the
United States for a very long time. I mean, they're adding 20,000 people a month. Not a month,
sorry, a year.
[0:17:26] JR: That would be fast if it was a month.
[0:17:27] IP: Yeah. It'd be really fast. Sorry, a year. With no signs of stopping. Milwaukee, still a
major city with a huge suburb population, which is Spirit’s bread and butter. Though, who knows
what their bread and butter is anymore? Who knows if they even have bread, or butter.
[0:17:47] JR: I don't know, but Ned writes up that spirit CEO, Dave Davis. Is that really Spirit
CEO's name now, Dave Davis? Today, I learned. Told staff in a memo viewed by himself that the
cuts were to “Better align with our smaller fleet and focus on our strongest performing market.” I
guess, Phoenix and Rochester and Milwaukee just weren't cutting it for Spirit. All right. Good
luck, guys.
[0:18:14] IP: Let's move to good news, news, just regular news.
[0:18:18] JR: News that isn't overtly bad.
[0:18:21] IP: News that isn't overtly bad. I like it. That's a new segment on the podcast.
American Airlines has announced their first A321XLR route. Jason, where are they going?
[0:18:32] JR: Edinburgh. Very exciting. JFK.
[0:18:34] IP: That is exciting.
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[0:18:36] JR: After, I believe, March 8th, so summer season starts early. If you're flying American
to Edinburgh out of New York, the XLR is slated to begin service December, I think next month
here, but on the premium JFK to LAX market. But we knew it was coming for international, but
now we know it's going to Edinburgh, which is, I find particularly interesting, because it's one of
those routes that American really hasn't been able to operate in the years past, because the last
time it operated a narrowbody from JFK to Edinburgh was with its trashy 757s, right up until
COVID.
[0:19:12] IP: I have flown that trashy 757.
[0:19:16] JR: Not knocking the 757, but American’s 757 in its later days, they were not a good
experience. If they were functioning at all on any given day, they were not good. The difference
between what was in 2020 and what will be in 2026 is an entirely different airline. I think that's
exactly what Americans trying to do, shed its tarnished past and become this new premium
airline, because that's exactly what the XLR is. Hey, that's exciting.
[0:19:46] IP: Yeah, good for them. A cross podcast plug, while we're talking about American
Airlines. Our friends over at the Air Show, Jon Ostrower, Brett Schneider, and Brian, whose last
name I'm forgetting.
[0:19:58] JR: Summers.
[0:19:59] IP: Jason, help me out. Summers, thank you. Oh, my goodness. They just recently
completed, or slightly finished. I assume there might be more episodes at some point in the
future, a rundown of American Airlines problems between fleet and structure and leadership. It
was a good series. If you're interested in a deep dive in why American Airlines has been mired
in such, I don't want to say suck, but –
[0:20:31] JR: Ooh.
[0:20:33] IP: Kind of is.
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[0:20:33] JR: Kind of. They are undoing the wrongs of the Vasu era. We only care about
Flagstaff era. Was it Flagstaff? Was it Reno? I don't know.
[0:20:45] IP: El Paso. El Paso.
[0:20:47] JR: El Paso. There it is. El Paso. We only care about El Paso. There's also a good
video from Wendover on YouTube, or Nebula, I guess, if you subscribe to that, that also goes
into the same of what the hell happened to American in the last few years. It's a hot topic these
days. They're trying to be better, but I also hear they're going through some layoffs right now,
which is the opposite of trying to get better. But let's just stick with the good news of the XLRs is
going back to Europe for American.
[0:21:17] IP: We head south now to Embraer's financial reporting for the third quarter of this
year, wherein they say they finally have enough parts to build the planes they want to build this
year. I guess, that's good news.
[0:21:31] JR: It’s November 5th. I guess, that's good news. If they didn't, they probably wouldn't.
I would hope they'd know by now.
[0:21:39] IP: They still have a long way to actually build those aircraft. They've been targeting
between 222 and 240 civilian aircraft to complete in 2025, split between 145 and 155 biz jets
and 75 to 85 Ejets. So far, they've done 102 and 46 respectively. They've got a ways to go.
[0:22:06] JR: We don't know what they're waiting for. Maybe the entire balance of the 222 to
240 aircraft they're building, they're all missing one screw common between all of them. They
got a big shipment of screws coming in in December and they're just going to – they're going to
put them on all those airplanes and send them on their way and hit their goal.
[0:22:24] IP: It's actually stickers. They're waiting for all the stickers to –
[0:22:27] JR: I mean, you laugh, but you can't certify a new aircraft without the no smoking
stickers onboard. It could be.
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[0:22:34] IP: That's true. That’s true.
[0:22:36] JR: Not outside the realm of stupidly possible.
[0:22:39] IP: Anything in this industry. Other Embraer news, the regional next generation
regional turboprop that Embraer announced to great fanfare just a few years ago, ain't going to
happen. It's dead.
[0:22:53] JR: Energia program, or –
[0:22:54] IP: No. This was the –
[0:22:56] JR: It’s hard to keep track of what Embraer is doing these days. They got a lot of pots
boiling.
[0:23:02] IP: It was originally announced as a wing mounted turboprop and then it became a tail
mounted turboprop. Then it became, “We're not really going to do this, but we're still thinking
about doing it,” to this week becoming, “It’s dead. Don't ever talk to us about it again.” Embraer
was considering competing with ATR, basically. They said, “No, we're not going to do that.”
What they are going to do is basically, something. Anything, everything. We don't know.
[0:23:29] JR: Please read the quote you have in the show notes here. I'd like you to read this
quote verbatim.
[0:23:35] IP: It's not a quote by Embraer CEO. I'm wildly paraphrasing. But what he said was
the new plane that they're working on could be big, could be small, could be electric, could be
powered by kitten person unicorn friends. We don't know. But we're going to work on a new
plane. We're going to work on it eventually. It was the most committed non-committal answer I
think I've ever heard.
[0:24:01] JR: You know what? I respect that, because it's more than we've gotten out of Boeing
in a very long time. At least Embraer says, “We're committed to doing something. We don't know
what, but –”
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[0:24:11] IP: We're committed to doing something.
[0:24:13] JR: We're going to do it. There's been a lot of back and forth and speculation of if
Embraer is going to enter competition to break the duopoly and come out with an actual proper
sized narrowbody to compete with Airbus and Boeing. Maybe it's that. Maybe it's not, but it
apparently will not be a regional turbo prop.
[0:24:32] IP: It won't be a regional turbo prop. It could be a smaller electric regional aircraft. It
could be a larger 737-A320 family competitor. It could be both. It could be neither. Who knows at
this point. It could be anything. But they're working on it.
[0:24:51] JR: Okay.
[0:24:52] IP: Yeah. In Airbus news, Airbus has finally delivered its first A330neo to a Chinese
airline. Hainan has taken delivery of the first of four A330-900neos. The news here is not that
Airbus has finally delivered an A330neo to China. I don't think. I think it's that Hainan has
actually taken delivery of an aircraft.
[0:25:15] JR: Wait. Hold on. I'm being told that it's already being transferred to another airline.
No. Not yet. But if you have any historical context about Hainan, you're probably waiting for that
to happen, for this to be transferred to Delta, or something like that. I had no idea Hainan even
had A330neos on order, let alone 20 of them, and to actually take delivery of one. It wasn't the
last time Hainan has taken delivery of anything that it's kept for more than a minute. Been a
while.
[0:25:45] IP: It's been a while. It’s been a while.
[0:25:46] JR: Did they have A350s in the fleet at some point? They did. They had a pair, and I
think they went to Azul maybe?
[0:25:53] IP: Who even knows at this point?
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[0:25:54] JR: Who knows? It’s good for Hainan, good for China, good for Airbus. Unexpected
good news.
[0:26:02] IP: We'll stick with Airbus notionally and talk about Swiss's plan for its A220 fleet.
Starting immediately, the A220-100 is done for at least a year and a half. Because they're going
to use those engines to keep the A220-300 fleet flying.
[0:26:23] JR: Oof. Nine, you say, A220-100s will be grounded to keep the 220-300s for a year
and a half.
[0:26:31] IP: Yes. For at least a year and a half.
[0:26:33] JR: Every time we just waffle back and forth one episode to the next hearing, Pratt &
Whitney says, things are getting better. Airbus says, things are getting better. Then the next
episode, it's airline says, “What the hell? It's getting worse. We're going to ground these aircraft
for a year and a half to support the other half of the fleet.” Grounding nine aircraft for a year and
a half, at least, that's a long time. That's dramatic. Ironically, maybe they'll have to call in
airBaltic, and its fleet of A220s to backfill that? Who knows?
[0:27:03] IP: What they're doing is they're calling in Helvetic Airways and their fleet of Ejets. The
A220-100s were operating a few routes, but mainly to London City, because they are required
for the steep approach there. Now that the Ejets are certified for the steep approach, they can
use the Helvetic Airways wet leases for the London City routes, take the engines off the
A220-100s, put them on the A220-300s, and continue flying more passengers.
[0:27:32] JR: I need a flowchart.
[0:27:34] IP: I do, seriously.
[0:27:36] JR: I don’t now.
[0:27:37] IP: We need something
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[0:27:38] JR: We have some very minor breaking news right now. In reaction to the FAA's
lopping of 10% of the flight schedule, Southwest is the first airline out to say something about it.
I quote, “Southwest Airlines is evaluating how the planned FAA flight restrictions will affect our
schedule, and will communicate directly with customers as soon as possible. Nothing is more
important to Southwest than the safety of our customers and employees. at this point, even the
airlines are hmm, we should probably get a couple meetings going to figure out who we're going
to cancel.
[0:28:16] IP: Yeah. It sounds like the DOT made this decision and didn't really talk to the airlines
beforehand.
[0:28:24] JR: Well, government shutdown, The phones don't work. Can't just call an airline
without a phone.
[0:28:29] IP: Fair enough. Back to Airbus. Korean Air has converted seven of its A350-1000
orders into A350 freighters. Now they will have seven A350 freighters and 20 A350-1000
passenger aircraft. The airline is also scheduled to take eight 777-8Fs at some point.
[0:28:56] JR: One day, maybe in 2020, never. I don't even know what the timeline is for the
certification of the 777-8F freighter. We've got to be looking at 2030 by now. Yeah, going to be a
minute, can understand why Korean would convert those 350-1000s to freighters. I'm sure they
don't really want to, but they must see a reason they need to. Maybe Boeing has told them that
it will be delayed. However, they didn't tell Emirates about the last delay of certification to 2027
before they announced it publicly, so who knows? Maybe they're just reading the vibes in the
room.
[0:29:36] IP: And covering all their bases. Speaking of government shut down news, the
Mammoth 777-200LRMF. That is the Mammoth freighters 777-200 passenger to freighter
conversion is delayed. Qatar Airways was scheduled to take delivery of the first aircraft later this
year, so basically next month. That won't happen, because they have not secured the
supplemental type certification for the aircraft, because of the government shutdown. that looks
delayed until whenever, basically a month after the government reopens it sounds like. We'll see
how long that takes.
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This was an interesting one that I think is hilarious, because it sounds like the bill has no chance
of passing, but whoever introduced it, because the similar bill has been introduced previously.
Whoever keeps introducing these bills just maybe had a very bad experience with an airline at
one point. In Brazil, they're trying to pass a, I hate an airline, I want to make it suck less for a
passenger's bill.
It's a laundry list of everything everyone hates about flying and buying tickets and all that good
fun stuff. The bill would prevent airlines from charging to select a seat. It would prevent airlines
from charging bag fees. It would prevent airlines from automatically canceling the return link of a
ticket if you miss the outbound flight. It would require airlines to provide up to two additional
seats for passengers who require special assistance at no charge.
[0:31:24] JR: What was that last one prohibits bag fees?
[0:31:27] IP: Yes, prohibits bag fees. No fees for checked baggage. I think buried in there
somewhere, if you ask to fly the plane, they have to let you.
[0:31:35] JR: Oh, well, I mean, that just goes without saying, but yeah, Brazil is not new to
having very specific requirements and other oddities that only apply to Brazil. I think they
already have many airlines that apply to Brazil have very, let's say, bespoke baggage rules and
different weight limits. But preventing care is from charging seat selection fees. I'm just going to
give a round of applause for that, because –
[0:32:04] IP: That one, I'll take.
[0:32:05] JR: It's becoming more and more popular that airlines are charging for seat
assignment, even in premium cabins and business class.
[0:32:10] IP: More and more popular and more and more expensive.
[0:32:12] JR: Yeah, I hate it, but it's becoming very much a thing. I applaud that. Don't know
about providing up to two additional seats for passengers applying special assistance. That's
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AVT 344 Transcript
going to be all sorts of complicated. Really interesting. I've ever heard the prohibit carriers from
automatically canceling return tickets from passengers missed their outbound flight. That's
interesting. I've ever heard anyone bring that up before. This is a thing that happens if you for
whatever reason miss your outbound flight, or decide to get there a different way. That means
your return flight is often canceled. Not doing that is interesting. I like that. I've never thought
about that before, but Brazil is I guess the EU of the Americas, as far as consumer protections
are concerned. It really seems like Brazil passes a lot of common-sense consumer protection
laws very similar to the EU. Don't see all of this going through, but –
[0:33:14] IP: Basically, none of this has any chance of becoming law. It's still –
[0:33:17] JR: We’d love to seem talking about it.
[0:33:20] IP: Yeah, it's very early days and a similar bill has previously been vetoed. We'll see
what comes of this. I just thought it was very interesting that they want to ban both charging for
the seat selection, where I'm in total agreement with Jason and bag fees. As Jason mentioned,
the interesting one there is the outbound cancellation. An interesting set of proposals that likely
has no chance of becoming law.
[0:33:45] JR: Nope.
[0:33:46] IP: Perhaps, some of it will one day.
[0:33:48] JR: Sure.
[0:33:49] IP: In recapping some stories that we talked about in the past few weeks, six of the
eight grounded Finnair A321s are now back in service. Two of those that are still out of service
are now in maintenance facilities. One's in Norwich and one is in Prague, both maintenance
locations for a 321 aircraft. It sounds like those are undergoing some more extensive
maintenance, whether or not that's related specifically to the seat covers that were impacted by
washing with water, rather than a chemical cleaning to maintain the fireproofing. Or if it's just
regular old maintenance, we do not know, but we should see those back in service sometime
soon back to full strength.
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AVT 344 Transcript
[0:34:37] JR: I think this is my runner, possibly runner up, or even first place for favorite story of
the year.
[0:34:43] IP: The seat covers?
[0:34:44] JR: The seat covers at Finnair. It's just so, so, so wholesome, so simple, but
impactful.
[0:34:50] IP: It’s so wholesome, so simple, and so aviation that there's a very specific
certification for seat cover fire retardant properties and using a water wash. Isn't certified for
that, and so we need to ground eight planes.
[0:35:06] JR: Fantastic.
[0:35:07] IP: Our good friend Ned Russell also confirms this is, I guess, personal experience on
his behalf and he did some reporting for us to say, yeah, they do give you a metal fork on
Lufthansa. The guy that stabbed two people with a metal fork, he could have been sitting in
economy.
[0:35:22] JR: Okay, glad we confirmed that. Thank you, Ned.
[0:35:25] IP: There you go. Last, but certainly not least, in our discussion about the Nouvelair
and EasyJet A320 near collision in Nice, we were discussing the radar altimeter setting and
whether or not it accounts for the extension of the landing gear. It indeed does. It accounts for
both the extension of the landing gear and the flare angle, which is interesting to me. Based on
the position of the radar altimeter, it's calibrated to adjust for the flare angle of the aircraft, so
that pilots are not thinking that they are higher, because they're in the front of the aircraft, higher
in a flare than the landing gear actually is. That's an interesting bit of information.
[0:36:09] JR: That is interesting.
[0:36:10] IP: I did not know.
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AVT 344 Transcript
[0:36:11] JR: Yeah. I guess, if you're flaring, you create, obviously, you're added a nose up
attitude and the radar altimeter would be pointing down the runway and giving you a very false
reading, so that the more you know, an educational podcast today.
[0:36:27] IP: We try our best. We educate, we entertain, we inform, we try our very best. If you
like listening to this podcast and think, “Well, I like being entertained. I like being informed. This
is good.” Help us reach more people by leaving us a rating, review, putting up some sky writing
would be perfectly acceptable. Also, also good. Wherever you get your podcast, whether it's
Apple or Spotify or another platform, please tell folks there that you think this is a good podcast.
If you've got questions, comments, concerns, email us directly, podcast@fr24.com. This has
been episode 344 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, here, as always with –
[0:37:16] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Thanks for listening.
[END]
© 2025 AvTalk 18