Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep1 - Is the “Wallflower” Puppy The One for You?

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,

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and this is a Puppy Culture

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Potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,
we bring the discussion.

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So the purpose of this podcast

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is to bring you highlights
of our puppy culture discussion group.

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We get so many great questions
and there's so much to say, and

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I've always wanted to share more with you
than I possibly could do in writing.

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So this is a way of doing that.

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What I'm going to be doing
is sort of cherry picking

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key posts that really sparked
a lot of great discussion

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and talking about them on the air.

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So let's jump right in with our first post

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because it's a great one.

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I'm going to read this post that came
into the puppy culture discussion group

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and it goes

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like this.

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I'm noticing that the puppy
that I want to keep seems like

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the least social in the pack.

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She isn't usually searching out
play with her siblings

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and doesn't win any little play battles.

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She often resorts to running away
than laying down.

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This makes me sad.

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This behavior reminds me a lot
of my other pup that I got at nine weeks.

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The breeder told me
she was the same socially as the others,

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but it was pretty obvious to me
in the videos I was seeing that

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she was not usually involved
in the sibling play times.

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I still ended up getting her

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and she has been 100% fearful of dogs
from the beginning.

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We manage it really well and had
she not been living with a dog trainer,

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I'm not sure she would
be as successful as she is.

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Anyway, the

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puppy I want to keep really has my heart,

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but I'm concerned my pick
puppy may be a similar scenario.

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Long story short, how often
have you experienced the least social

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to the siblings?

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But super people social puppy

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become dog reactive in the future.

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The puppies are five and a half weeks old.

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So that was the original post.

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That was the original question
that she wrote in.

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Then I asked a follow up
question, two follow up questions.

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Number one,
what is it about this particular puppy

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that you find so compelling,
and what are your plans for this puppy?

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These are Border Collie puppies.

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And her answer really was just

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as far as what she saw in the particular
puppy was just

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that there was a connection
right from the beginning.

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And I can't argue with that
because we've all felt that right

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as breeders,
where we just hold that one in our hands

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and you're just like, “Oh,
I know you, you're mine”.

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So there's that.

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But then she also said

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that she wants this to be her next
big performance dog

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and also carry on her breeding program.

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So I just love, love this post
because it gives me a chance to talk about

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so many things, at least four big topics,
and also my personal experience.

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So the four things that we're going
to be talking about with this are,

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number one, predictability of temperament
from, from puppy hood,

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fear periods, my

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personal experience
with those two things, metrics

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for choosing a dog
and also the ghost of dogs past.

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So let's just talk

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briefly about her top level question,
which is the predictability

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of temperament.

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So how indicative is whatever
she's seeing now,

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how much is that dispositive

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of what the puppies
ultimate temperament is going to be?

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And this has really been studied

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a lot,
and it's been studied in some pretty deep,

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you know, very well designed studies.

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And, you know,
there really is not any consistent

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predictability of, of temperament
at any stage in puppy

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hood on adult, you know, temperament
you can't really predict.

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No matter what anybody tells you,
there's no sort of magic wand

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or magic looking glass that you're going
to be able to see into the future.

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That's not to say that, you know,
we don't have things that we look at,

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but really, as far as being 100%
predictable, there isn't.

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I have written about this

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and I will put a link to that article
up on the website if you want to dig down

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into some citations.

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But suffice it to say these really

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early behavioral characteristics really
just do not track

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with any predictability into adulthood.

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Okay, So now let's look at

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the facts of what is in this post.

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So first of all, what jumps out at me
is that these

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puppies are 5.5 weeks old,
five and a half weeks old.

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Normally, I would say my puppies

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could be experiencing
their initial fear response at this age.

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And that certainly could affect,

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you know, how a puppy behaves. So

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I really

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don't, I
try not to make too much judgments at all

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about my puppy's temperaments
until much older,

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but especially around this time,
you can really see

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some sort of almost outlier behaviors
that will pass quickly.

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Okay, so

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just to recap, fear period, Right.

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Do you know how do you know
if it's a fear period or if it's

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maybe something
more like a personality dimension?

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And the hallmarks of fear periods are

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that it's the acute

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onset, meaning a sudden

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onset, of fear of the familiar.

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So it's not a generalized fear.

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It's like they've walked past that little,
you know, pig statue

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every day of their life.

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And one day they just whoa,
they're afraid of it.

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That is transitory, meaning to say

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it passes quickly
without any behavioral interventions.

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So again, if I saw a puppy at five
and a half weeks old that I thought

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was displaying some kind of behavior,
like maybe not jumping into the fray,

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maybe acting a little weird,
if that was sort of a new development,

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I would

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certainly not put too much stock in it
and I'd wait to see if it just

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passed on its own within a couple of days
and I would say we get this question,

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I mean,

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regularly, a couple times a month,
somebody writes in with a puppy around

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five weeks or around eight weeks
that is suddenly displaying fear.

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And it has always

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of the ones that wrote into us,
it has always turned out

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that it was a fear period and it passed
without any major behavioral intervention.

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So, you know,
that's one thing that jumps out at me.

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Not only would I not judge a five week
old puppy because they're too young

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to really know, but,
you know, they could be in a fear period.

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So that's, that's something.

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Now, as far as my experience with this,

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I mean,

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you know, there certainly are outliers
that are just really

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displaying,
let's say, either pathological behavior

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or they're just so amazing
from such a young age that you just know.

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But, I mean, 98% of the puppies

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kind of fall into that middle ground
where they're, they're just puppies.

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You know, You really don't know.

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You really don't know at this age.

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And certainly the most

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retiring puppy

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has turned out to be the most
bold in my litter and vice versa.

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You really can't say.

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And I do also have to say
that a lot of people wrote in

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with very similar,
you know, a lot of breeders wrote in

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on the same page, similar story,
like you really can't tell

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and it changes so much in five
and a half weeks is really

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too young, you know, to know. So

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I've even had puppies

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much older, 10 to 12 weeks,

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actively avoiding
engaging with Littermates and to the point

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where I had an eye on them
and they turned out to be,

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I mean, really not just okay,
but some of the best dogs I ever bred.

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Again, it's not like, oh,
the ones that don't interact

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are the best or, you know, it's
just there's no discernible real

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pattern to it.

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What I will say, a lot of times
when you have a puppy

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that like that that doesn't want to react,

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sometimes the rest of the litter
are just hooligans and the puppy knows it.

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And or,

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the puppy can just be developmentally
a little behind the other puppies,

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maybe just physically not

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quite as robust as the other puppies
not able to hold their own.

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And you know,
maybe they just don't have that that

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how shall I say, like drive,
I guess, for lack of a better word,

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to jump in the fray
when they're smaller and less,

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they have less facility,
physical facility.

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So again, it just all kind of funnels
down to the same thing, which is that

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you can't put too much stock into what

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you're seeing at this age.

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But I do have one thing

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that I have noticed that

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so far, at least is dispositive,

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not for a puppy that's going to grow up
to be reactive, but for a puppy

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that is going to turn out to be
a totally amazing and fabulous puppy.

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And that's the big hairy dog test.

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Now, bull terriers are not known
for being, you know, dog tolerant.

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They're just generally,
you know, we're always breeding

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toward them being better,
but they have pretty significant same sex

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aggression and, you know, they're not
indefinitely tolerant of other dogs.

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And their play style,
frankly, is terrible.

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And most dogs get annoyed by it. So

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we're

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always looking for that sort of unicorn
bull terrier that is going to be,

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you know, have all the joie

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de vive of the bull terrier,
but yet not be just a butthead.

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So I have noticed that,

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well, first of all, let me say
we always have a big hairy dog over.

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That's like one of the rites of passage,
as you saw that in puppy culture

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with the with the Newfoundland.

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We have friends that have Leonbergers.

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We always try to have something big,
intimidating, hairy,

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just something
that's really going to be a lot for them.

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And we do that somewhere
between 6 to 10 weeks.

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We now tend to do it a lot
earlier than we used to, but

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suffice to say, suffice it to say
we have this big hairy dog over

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and I have found that the puppy

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that shows the very least hesitancy
about the big dog,

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the one that just runs right in
and is like, “Oh,

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I have just, you are wonderful,
I've been waiting my whole life to see

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something like you”,
that's an awesome puppy.

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And that puppy is going to be stable and
stay stable and be good with other dogs.

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That doesn't mean that the other puppies
aren't going to be.

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It's just that that puppy, there's
always that one puppy in the litter

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that is just at the head of the pack and
just delighted to see the big hairy dog.

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And that's going to be my most stable
puppy.

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Is that true of everyone?

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I don't know.

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But that is the one thing that so far
I have seen

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that's pretty dispositive about this
one dimension of dog reactivity.

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So again, just to

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sum it up, I would not say that
you can predict

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dog reactivity
by the big hairy dog metric,

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but you can probably pick an outstanding
puppy

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using the big hairy dog metric.

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Now I'm going to talk about metrics
for choosing a performance dog.

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That is also something that comes up a lot

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like how do I know you know which dog
to pick for performance?

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Listen, I have it all my friends
that do performance have it.

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We're always looking for that dog
that that is going to be able to do

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performance, have the emotional stability
and talent to do it.

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And here's what I'm going to say.

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If you're an agility person,

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you know that agility itself,

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honestly, it's it's the behaviors
are not that hard to teach, right?

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I mean, it's rare that it's really

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a training issue
that's holding a team back.

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What holds most teams
back are behavioral issues,

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particularly environmental sensitivity.

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And that is very much a genetic issue.

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I mean, assuming that

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you're going to do
all the right socialization,

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which I really think most people
that get a performance prospect puppy are,

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you know, they're very invested in this
and they are going to do all the right

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foundation training,
they're going to do the socialization.

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But, you know,
there's a genetic component here

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that you really are not going to be able
to change a lot.

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You can knock the edges off of it

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and socialization
and early exposures do go a long way.

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But the baseline level of social pressure
that the dog feels in public

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is hardwired into them.

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So when you're

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looking at that litter
and trying to pick your next

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big performance prospect,

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you're balancing that talent and drive

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against whatever you're going to have

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regarding
emotional environmental sensitivity.

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So to sum it up, if

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I were looking for a performance prospect,
I'd be looking for the dog

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that absolutely is most comfortable
in his own skin in public.

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That would be the number one trait
I would be looking for.

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And then I would pick a dog
with structural soundness,

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good angulation and good feet.

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If you have that sound mind
in a sound body,

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you can build talent and drive
because you won't be stuck in behavior

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mod camp or physical therapy
for most of the dog's career.

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So again, circling back

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to my original poster's
question, is this puppy

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that the original poster
is talking about, that puppy?

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I can't say that's for her to decide,

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but I will say if you are committed

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to a performance dog
and something that's going to

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carry on your

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breeding program of performance dogs,
I think that you might have to put

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some of your emotion
about this particular puppy aside

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and try and be objective.

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Look at them again at ten, 12, 16 weeks.

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I find for my breed, 16
weeks is a much better age

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to look at temperaments
than eight or ten weeks.

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They really still can change a lot.

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I find by 16 weeks I kind of really,
really know who they are.

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So again, you know, if you had a choice
to run on a couple of puppies,

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I'd run a couple on
and see how they look at 16 weeks.

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So let me close

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this discussion
about this particular post with

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some comments on the ghosts of dogs past,

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because if you

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remember what really is upsetting
this particular

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person is that

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she has another dog
that she loves very much.

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But the dog is reactive and it didn't,
you know, reach her expectations.

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And, you know, first of all,
I would comfort her

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by saying there's a couple of things
that are different here.

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Number one, you're talking about a 5.5
week old puppy versus

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a nine week old puppy.

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I mean, you knew at nine weeks
when you saw that puppy that the puppy

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wasn't tracking
the way that you really wanted it to.

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You got you got time
on the puppy that you have at home,

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I mean, if the puppy's looking
weird to you, what, nine weeks?

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That's maybe a different discussion.

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But 5.5 weeks, you know, that's a lot of
pressure to put on this poor little puppy.

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I feel
you right, Because we've all been there

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like we have these experiences
and we just don't want it to happen again.

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But what I'm going to say is don't project

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onto these little puppies
your past problems.

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Give them a chance. Be open minded.

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They all deserve that chance.

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And again, you know,

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you have to parse out
how much of this was you

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and how much of it was the puppy meaning
to say if you walked right

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into a situation where you knew that
that puppy maybe wasn't going to be ideal.

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I mean, you know, that
that that is not something that you

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you need to worry about
because you can control that right now.

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You know better.

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So I don't I don't want to say this
as an admonishment

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or blaming you more to the point
that you know how to avoid this.

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Right. You've learned your lesson. So,

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I wouldn't worry about it. Now,

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the other thing I'm going to say

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is that, unfortunately,

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there are a lot of emotional

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black boxes, right?

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So puppies, as they're developing,

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they have genetic black boxes

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that you really can't look into.

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Okay.

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So they're going to be
the genes are going to be activated

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as the puppy matures, as the environment
interacts with the puppies.

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And, you know, things can change a lot
for the better or for the worse.

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And, you know, it's

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really like a box of chocolates,
you don't know what you're going to get.

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It can look good on the outside, but,
you know, sometimes you get a surprise.

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But that is part of what it is to raise

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something from puppy hood.

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If I were looking for a puppy for performance or for anything else for that matter,

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I would be looking at the temperament
of the parents

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and ideally, if I could, the grandparents.

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So if I have four grandparents

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and two parents
with the kind of temperament that I want,

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I feel like I'm stacking the deck
very much in my favor

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with that puppy.

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I think that obviously
you have to look at, you know,

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you can't you can't ignore obvious
red flags with the puppy

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and you're going to try and pick
the best puppy at the time.

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But I think that as far as those, again,
genetic black boxes

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that you don't know about
that are going to come online later,

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your best indicator
is going to be the immediate

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ancestors.

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Now, that all having been said even then,

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you know what I'm always saying,
like I say in my breeders course that

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dogs have a low investment
and high assortment

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evolutionary strategy, meaning to say
they have litters, so they really don't

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00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,760
have a lot of investment
in each individual puppy.

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00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,240
And their strategy is to have a high
assortment, a high assortment of of,

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00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,480
you know, physical characteristics and
a high assortment of personality types.

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00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,240
And, you know, they only need
like one of those puppies from that litter

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to live for them to be replaced.

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And if two live well, that's great.

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So they can afford to kind of mix
things up.

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00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:47,720
If they have nine puppies,
they're always trying to spread their,

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00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,240
you know, spread their
money all over the table.

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As breeders of course, we're

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always trying to concentrate
genetic characteristics,

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but you know that we're always working
against nature with this.

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So what that means to you
if you're buying a puppy, is

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you have no guarantees.

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00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,720
And my performance friends
and I have had this discussion many times

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00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,200
and if you really, really

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A. Can't have more than one dog
or can't keep a bunch of dogs.

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So you know if you're getting a puppy
and if the puppy washes out,

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then you can't do performance and B.

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00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:30,480
You absolutely
performance is your number one thing.

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You've got to do it.

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00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,520
You know, your best bet
is to get a retired show animal

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because by three years old, you know what
that animal's temperament is going to be?

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00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,520
I mean, the animals reached
stable emotional maturity.

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00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:49,920
I think some breeds like
maybe Rottweilers,

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00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:52,080
it might even be a little bit later
like four.

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00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:55,160
But normally, by the time
a dog is done with their show and

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00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,440
or breeding career,
you know, you know what you're getting.

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00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:00,280
Now, yes,

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00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,360
you're going to miss out
on all that agility foundation

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00:22:03,360 --> 00:22:06,520
or obedience foundation that's really fun
to do when they're quite young.

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00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:12,960
But I'm going to say
on the positive side of this, you know,

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just going into a show ring
and ignoring other dogs

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00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,840
and again, becoming
just just so environmentally stable,

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00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:25,320
just so emotionally non-reactive
to environments, I mean, that's huge.

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00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:28,160
That's really kind of the best training
you can have.

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00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:31,760
The best foundation,
emotional foundation, groundwork

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00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,080
you can have for a performance dog.

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00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,720
This is not applicable
to this original poster, I would not say,

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00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,880
but I'm sure a lot of people are listening

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00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,960
to this and wondering for themselves,
you know, how do they pick their next dog?

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00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:51,760
And so, you know, my answer is
look at the grandparents and the parents.

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00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:54,640
Take the puppy that seems to you
to be the most

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00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:59,320
emotionally stable and comfortable
in their own skin at the time

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00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,520
when the breeders placing the puppies
and run with that puppy.

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00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:08,120
Or if you just really can't,
you just need a sure thing, you just need

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00:23:08,120 --> 00:23:11,720
to know everything, get an adult dog,

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00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:16,400
preferably a retired show dog.

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00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:20,640
So if you want to read the original post
and all the really great

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00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,680
answers that were posted

390
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:24,120
by all the

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00:23:24,120 --> 00:23:27,880
breeders and other people that wrote
in, I'm going to put a link

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00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,120
up on the show page to the original post
and you can read it there.

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00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:33,840
Well, that's it for this time.

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00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,720
If you have any questions or something
you'd like me to talk about on the air,

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00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:42,000
join us on the Puppy Culture
Discussion Group on Facebook

396
00:23:42,360 --> 00:23:46,080
or visit the show page at madcapradio.com

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00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,200
and drop your question there.

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00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:50,800
Thanks for listening.

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Bye bye.