Mackenzie Fierceton: ‘Abuse can happen across all income levels and races and professions’

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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic, and this is next question. You know, every so often an article comes along that you just can't stop thinking about. That happened to me recently when I read Rachel Aviv's newest piece from The New Yorker. It's called How an Ivy League School Turned Against a Student. It tells the story of Mackenzie Fierston, who grew up in a privileged St. Louis suburb and ended up in foster care after allegedly being abused by her mother, a prominent local radiologist, and her mother's boyfriend. Mackenzie eventually won a full scholarship to the University of Pennsylvania and a Rhodes scholarship to study at Oxford, and that's when her story took yet another turn. After facing accusations that her depiction of her past was inaccurate, Mackenzie lost her Rhodes scholarship and is now in the midst of a legal battle with penn Beyond the specifics of Mackenzie's heroine story, though her experience raises a lot of thorny issues about the politics of higher education and our assumptions about race and class regarding abuse. I talked with Mackenzie for two hours, and it wasn't always an easy conversation, but I wanted to give her the space to fully share her story. We covered some of the most painful and traumatic moments of her past. I greatly appreciate her willingness to speak so candidly. Also a warning before we get started. This conversation touches on physical and sexual abuse, which may be difficult for some listeners. Wow, Mackenzie, I mean, what heroine fascinating and I have to say confusing story UH in the New Yorker before we get into it. What is the reaction been. Yeah, the reaction, honestly has been overwhelming support. I've gotten hundreds or maybe even thousands at this point of messages of solidarity and a lot of other survivors sharing their stories and saying that they feel seen and heard, And that was the most important thing for me with sharing my story. So I think that's probably been the most special part of the outreach and reaction. Have you heard from your mother at all since this was published. I haven't heard from anyone in my family of origin or anyone from UH in an official capacity for from the Roads Trust UM or directly from penn althought indirectly. Uh, So I've mainly just been hearing from people, uh, with support and a lot of love and mutual outrage at the situation. Well, let's let's back pedal and sort of talk about this profile. It was written by Rachel aviv Um. It's in the New Yorker. I'd encourage everyone listening to this to read the full article because it goes into great detail about your story. Let's talk a little bit about your personal journey, and then we can talk about some of the bigger systemic issues at play. You grew up in St. Louis. Tell me a little bit, Mackenzie about your childhood. Yeah. So I grew up primarily with my biological mother in St. Louis, as you said, for most of my life, and my her and my bio dad separated when I was about six, so he wasn't very present in my life. Was a lot of difficult things that happened with him as well. Uh. And I went to a monetary school and I was younger, and that was kind of the start of my very close relationship with teachers, which was just a really big saving grace for me throughout. I would say my entire childhood and school was definitely always an outlet for me. And then I ended up moving to school named Whitfield, which is seven or six through twelve, and I went there starting in seventh grade, which is a private school in St. Louis County. And yeah, then I was living with my bio mom. She also started dating UM, a man who turned out to be very abusive, and things began to also escalate with her over time. You mentioned there were troubles with your biological father as well. Can you tell us about that. Yeah, there was a degree of abuse with him as well. And it was interesting because a dynamic UM that became very prevalent was being really a meshed with my bio mom because it felt like I needed to have one parent at least that felt like a safe space for me UM. And so, you know, in my early years there was a lot of closeness or kind of a feeling of the lesser of two um evils for lack of a better better term. And so I would say, you know, when I was younger, we were pretty close and there was a lot of UM care between us, and sometimes I feel like that's missed in talking about abuses it's oftentimes just talked about as this one sided you know, everything was terrible and you kind of missed like the nuances of feeling, you know, the feelings of love and care also existing in the space of trauma and abuse and harm. It seems as if you grew up in quite an affluent saying that your mom is a very well respected member of the community. Um was exceedingly charming. Uh, people treated her with deference and respect. Can you sort of just give us a sense of what it was like growing up Mackenzie, Yeah, that was definitely. Um, you know the case I kind of in Rachel said, you know, related the sentiment in her story of kind of feeling people perceived us as like the Gilmore girls, Um of kind of you know this mom, single mom and her precocious daughter, and you know, definitely growing up in this upper middle class home and doing the things that are typically associated with that, like playing sports and you know, going to private school and being involved in a bunch of different activities and going to school with a lot of people who were upper middle class, were were very wealthy, um, and didn't really have many experiences that I had at home, or I'm sure that some of them did and I didn't know about it. UM. So it was an odd dynamic because one just even having a single mother in that community was a little bit um, I don't know, odd out of the ordinary, sometimes looked down upon. UM. And she wasn't very involved in my school life like a lot of the parents were there of like, you know, volunteering for different events, they're planning different things, and so she didn't have a strong relationship with the community. UM. But it was also odd because you know, when she did have interactions, she was so charming. UM. And I think was highly regarded because of her profession and the socio economic privilege that we had. Tell me a little bit about her profession, what she does and um, sort of can you give us some background about her profession. Yeah, so she is a radiologist. She did has done breast radiology I think for most of her career. Feel free to fact check me on that. Um. That's as as long as I remember her doing radiology, I'm pretty sure it was breast radiology. So at the time she was uh the director of the breast center I believe at St. Luke's Hospital, which is one of the hospitals in St. Louis. So she had a big job. Yes, she did have a big job. Went to alblems really start in your home. I in retrospect, there were always problems. I just didn't really have the tools to name them. Um. And like I said, there were smaller things, you know, that happened, smaller things that happened over the years that I didn't really notice as behavior that wasn't acceptable, um, because that was just the reality. And that was especially the case with you know, uh my with carry my bio mom dating her fiance for so long, and the things that happened with him, and just feeling like it was normalized for those to be ignored. Um. And So I guess I don't know if I can even identify a moment of like when it began to get worse. It was just over time I started to become more aware of what wasn't okay and UM. But I will say in high school is when things started to escalate more than they had in the past. So can you describe some of your experiences. I know, again the article goes into great detail about some of the things that you told Rachel had happened to you during the course of your childhood. Primarily as you mentioned, in your teenage years, and they sound pretty harrowing. Can you give us a few examples of of what you have to endure in your own home? Yeah, so, I mean one that Rachel mentioned in the article, Um, and I experienced sexual abuse from her partner for as long as he was in the picture, which started when I was in the seventh grade. UM, And it was often on But there was a particular incident, UM, where I woke up and he was on top of me, UM, and I didn't end up getting away, And it was one of the times I did call um my mom and tell her what had happened, and I just remember she just started laughing, UM and telling me that she was honor that he had gotten her confused with her fifteen year old daughter. UM. And it wasn't something we ever spoke about again, that specific incident. And and was it a frequent occurrence or was this sporadic? Can you give me some kind of sense of how often this was happening and how aware your mom was about these various incidents. Yeah, it was pretty frequent. Um. There were times when it was more frequent than others, And I think there was UM, she was aware, and there were also I'm sure cognitive dissonance of not you know, wanting to see or hear what was going on UM. And so eventually I gave up trying to talk about it or to tell her about it, especially because there's obviously so much shame that's involved. And I just for so many years until honestly recently, UM felt so guilty and I Raciel also mentioned the sentiment that I relate, and it does. I think about it a lot. But I've heard people compare, you know, like a cute assault to the strupturing or losing of yourself, and I feel like the long term child abuse while you're brain is still developing and there's so much you're learning about yourself. I felt like there wasn't a self to begin with, and not that either is you know, better or worse, they're just different. And I felt like there wasn't. I felt like I was just writing as a passenger in my own body, and like there was I was just this hollow person that would you know, an assault would happen, and I would go to school and like beyond student government and go play my soccer game, and I really was the queen of compartmentalization, and in part that was because of all the shame and the guilt that I had and carried for so long. That was what your wellness director at your high school said about you, this queen of compartmentalization and school in many ways we can see, became a refuge for you where you could really channel your I guess your full self and and have almost a separate life. Yes, it definitely was a separate a separate life in some ways. And the teachers at my school, especially because I got to be there over a period of six years and really got to establish deeper relationships, and also because of my feeling like I had a lack of relationship I think I was. It was in part a trauma response of like I need some stable adult to have a to have a connection with um. And so I established very deep relationships with with my teachers, and they gave me different parts of what parents would give to their kids, at least what I think parents are tip to their kids at different times over the years. And we're all so the first people to believe me and make me feel like I was worthy of something more than what was happening to me, and that I was more than just what was happening to me. More with Mackenzie Pearston when we come back. During this period, you were also experiencing really serious physical abuse by your mom. Can you tell us about that, Mackenzie, Yeah, yeah, it definitely is hard to talk about, UM. But like I said, it did get worse over time UM, and I think Rachel does a good job of, you know, relaying that sort of trajectory of when it started and how it developed, UM. And when it started to get worse was my freshman and the sophomore year of high school, and it became impossible to hide UM, like showing up with bruises and black eye and teachers, you know, are mandatory reporters and so they had to report things like that. UM, and in retrospect didn't for a long time, even though there were things now, you know, having I just graduated UM, and I studied social work and you learn a lot about signs of child abuse or trauma at home, and I was thinking about this a lot in the last year. There were a lot of opportunities and things that were glaring signs very early on, as early as seventh grade, and none of that was ever really acknowledged or reported. And one example I came to that came to mind was, you know, I went through everything I could find in my computer when Rachel was writing the article, and I found this sketch that I had written in seventh grade for my theater class, and it was talking about horrible emotional abuse from a mother to her daughter. And you know, I think of any other a child who looked different or had, you know, wasn't an upper middle class white woman um or their mom was in an upper middle class white woman doctor would have been an immediate red flag. To have this monologue that was so visceral and descriptive. And I I don't think I was able to name that honestly until really recently, because my teachers did do so much for me and the adults did so much for me in my life. And that is true as well as that a lot was overlooked because of the inherent biases that we all have. And you know, race and class and profession tells you to look at not upper middle class white people as the traditional person who can do harm um. And so it's interesting to look back and see that there were a lot of signs for a long time UM. But at some point it became impossible to hide. What were some of the other physical manifestations you had that I assume started to tip teachers off as time went on, Yeah, some of it, I think, UM. And again these weren't things that I was able to identify as signs until much later, and even learning about it from more of a like academic or professional level studying social work UM and in therapy, which thank goodness for therapy. UM. But a lot of it was also, you know, signs of the sexual abuse as well as just having you know, like I hated hugs. I didn't want anyone to get near me or touched me. I had an ob seeing startle response. I could never sleep, I couldn't eat, I didn't want to go home. I always wanted to be at school as much as possible. UM. And people started to observe that over time, and eventually I ended up disclosing to one of my history teachers my sophomore year a little bit. M was kind of dipping my towel in the water of like, there's something going on at home. I can't talk about it, but I'm you know, getting scared and I need help, And she connected me with like you said the wellness director at our school, you kept a journal in high school. And the New Yorker piece includes a number of the passages you wrote. What prompted you to keep this journal? And what has it been like for you going back and rereading some of these countries. It's been really difficult to reread some of them because obviously it wasn't I mean, I hadn't read it since this all happened, I maybe even since I wrote it. Um, And it was really difficult now a number of years later to go back and see how much my younger self was hurting and was being hurt, and how much shame and guilt there was. UM. And I started it because the wellness director said, you know, if you're not going to talk about it, at least you can write about it, and they'll be some kind of outlet to you. And it took It took me a little bit because at first I just thought to myself, this is dumb. Why would I do this? And I then I was convinced someone was going to find the journal. Uh. And I don't remember exactly what happened, but something happened, and I just felt like I was gonna implode on myself, and like I needed to get it out in some fashion, and I definitely didn't feel ready to get it out in a verbal or a sense that someone else would hear it. And so I started writing a little bit about what I felt. You came to school with a bloody and battered face, and that represented a huge turning point for you, Mackenzie, and for your situation. Can you tell us about that. I had finally decided the day before that I was ready to, for lack of a better term, go on the record or talk about what had happened. And Um, two days before I had disclosed to one of my teachers the sexual abuse that was happening at home and so she had, you know, had to report it. They called the police. The police came out and took report at her house. And the next day when I went to school, and I told the will less director that I was ready, like I couldn't do this anymore, um, and it was just getting worse. And yeah, so I met with UM the Child Productive Services at school that day and told them what had been going on, and they said there was a special victims detective who was going to come talk to me the next day, but she wasn't available that day UM, and so the plan was for me to go home, um and and get some things and then go spend the night at my friend's house. And it ended up I found out like last minute, my friend wasn't able to like she wasn't home or friend her parents weren't home. That's what it was. And I also knew that was the first place that um, Carrie would look if I didn't come home, And so I was worried that if I went to her house or I didn't go to her house UM and I went somewhere else, that she would show up and that friend would I don't know, get into trouble or being home's way. UM. So yeah, I ended up going home and that was my bio. Mom said she knew I had been talking um and I don't remember, you know, all of what happened. I'm not sure, like to this day. UM. I know that Henry, her fiance, had a lot of connections to the local police department, which was also in part why I was so scared to tell anyone, because I didn't I think even if someone believed me, that anything would happen to him and that was something he told me. It was like, it doesn't matter what you say. I have trained. I worked with X y Z police officer, and I recently found out is something he told other women who he hurts. So it seems like that is a recurrent theme. UM. And he also had a gun, and he got my bio mom a gun for her birthday. And there was just so much fear, um, both in a physical sense, but also in the sense of most survivors already feel like we're not going to be believed. And then when it's added in that you have your abusers have friends at the police department. Um, it's not exactly helpful or encouraging and coming forward or seek help. UM. So that's been my theory, but you know, I don't know for sure. UM. And then you went and your mom, Yeah, yes, that was the night um, that the biggest episode of violence happened. UM. And I drove to school the next day, which I don't really remember. UM. The only thing I really remember is waking up in my room and in the middle of the night, UM, and then trying to crawl over the door and lock lock it and UM, then her telling me in the morning, I'm taking the keys and I'm calling you and sick to school. Um. Yeah, and then I guess I ended up driving, just getting a spare key and driving school. Um. And then I showed up to the this teacher who had been helping me her room and passed out. Uh. And then was in the hospital for a couple of weeks and then foster care. There was an incident where a social worker was dispatched to your moms to your house. When did that happen and what happened? So that happened in March of my sophomore year of high school, and I showed up to school with a black eye, and of course tried to cover it up, as I always did, but it was pretty dark, so it showed through the cover up and teachers began to notice pretty quickly. Uh. And in the middle of the day during my Spanish class, the wellness structure that you've mentioned pulled me out of Spanish class and asked me what happened. And the story that Carriett told me to tell was that I fell playing with my dogs and hit my head on the table, and so that was what I told her, And she said, are you sure that's where you're gonna stick with you really need to tell the truth. And I just said yes, And she told me she had to report it to Child Protective Services and I just said, okay, fine, do whatever you have to do. I was mad, um, even though I know in retrospect understand that's what she had to do. UM. And then I went back to class, and I had soccer practice, and then I was also in the musical, the school musical. So I went to musical rehearsal and I got a call from UM or cameraphons to call her. A text from UM Carrie that was just like rage of like you need to get home right now. There's a social worker at home. She's asking me questions like get home right now. So I came home immediately, and I got home and they were in the living room just gabbing like they were old friends. UM. And this social worker was also a white woman. UM. And yeah, by the time I got there, I that she had already related the story if I fell. I had been playing with dogs. And I sat down in the living room. She asked me if that was what happened. I said yes, because what you know, I would have said that probably anyway. But also Carrie was in the room, um, and then she said, this is my dream case and I wish they were all this easy, and I'm sorry for bothering you, and she left. So that was pretty discouraging U to have that encounter after you were discharged from the hospital. What happened? So when I was discharged, I went to my first foster home, and that was with a family who had another foster child and then two of their buyout children who were there over you. At that point, I had just turned I was like a month past seventeen. That must have been so strange for you. Sure, you are a junior in high school and suddenly you find yourself in a foster home. What was that? Like, Mackenzie, I honestly felt so detached and numb that it was hard to even feel anything. At the time. I felt overwhelmed and this devastating and overwhelming feeling of guilt because I just felt like both free and that the truth was finally out there, but also like I had ruined her life and his life, and was were people going to believe me? You know? When I went back to school, and like I mentioned, there was still so much shame and guilt and that is the overwhelming feeling. I remember when I when I was feeling things and wasn't feeling detached, I would just have these waves of anxiety and shame for what was happening. Did you have any contact with your mom at all when you were living in the foster home. No, I didn't have any contact with her at all. And how were you treated by your foster family? Yeah? They you know, they did their best. It was there was a a lot going on in their house, um, and so they did their best. But I started pretty quickly feeling kind of overwhelmed by just the chaos of their house and just leaving for days at a time. UM. So I would often go stay with one of my friends. Uh. And they made me a room at their house, and um, yeah, I wanted to stay with them as much as I could. And then other times I would just kind of rotate between different friends houses and stay at a different friends house each day, just so I didn't have to be there. Um. And it was familiar, because, like you said, it's extremely scary to just be dropped in this family you've never met before or known and doesn't really know anything about you. And there was at least familiarity and the friends that I was staying with. Did everyone in the school community know what was going on in your life and what had happened? Yes, they definitely did, in part because the school is pretty small. There's was only a little over seventy people in my grade, and it was on the news that she was arrested, and so there was an article about it. And I also then learned when I got back to school that she had hired a defense attorney who was the father of someone in my grade. Uh, and so everyone knew very quickly what had happened and had opinions about what had happened because of that. How were you treated by your classmates? At first? I was treated pretty well, and there was like a pretty overwhelming sense of support, and I felt like it was pretty widespread, and I really didn't encounter any negativity until a few months in because initially there were criminal charges that were filed against her um and then they ended up being dropped several months later, right before it was going to go in front of a grand jury, And it felt like in the month or so leading up to that, there was there started to be a shift among certain people, including one of my best friends at the time, UM, who just started to not talk to me. Then there was an anonymous Snapchat account that someone made that started sending me like pretty awful messages UM and calling me names and all of the whole gamut um. And so that was, you know, I think in the month leading up to that, and then certainly after the charges were dropped, and I felt like the sentiment started to shift from pretty unanimous support to a divided people divided over believing me and not believing me. That must have been pretty traumatic on top of everything else, to have what was once a sanctuary from your home life become this I don't know, court of public opinion and you're still a teenage girl. Yeah, it was that. I felt pretty devastating, to put it lightly, because it did feel like a sanctuary for so many years, and I felt, you know, like I had always been class representative in student government, and I was captain of the soccer team, and I was so invested in the community. And then to have that dissipate um and both sort of the passive aggressive just like people stopped talking to me, and my entire friend group over time just stopped talking to me. UM. I felt pretty awful, and it also makes you know there's that I didn't know the word gaslight at the time, but having that happen made me feel even more crazy and more like, what's wrong with me? What did I do wrong? I shouldn't have told anyone. I should have just stayed there. And maybe I'm the crazy one. Maybe I did. You know, you just do back flips in your mind because you want anything other than what's the truth to be true. And at the same time, I also knew that there was no going back, and I never wanted to go back to my home of origin or anyone that I lived with. We'll be back in a moment with more of my conversation with Mackenzie. Firston, I was struck by a quote from one of your teachers. This is what the teacher said, when you've grown up with privilege and everything around you is pretty and pristine and predictable, your tolerance for anything outside that world isn't very high. People didn't want to deal with it anymore, Pete, who had once supported her, You, mcken see, we're finding excuses to turn their backs or walk away. And you elaborate on that and what that teacher meant, I don't think anyone wants to believe that a parent can do that to their child, or anyone can do that to their child, And when it's someone in your community, that can be kind of a rocking reality for some people. And you have to make a choice of either you're going to acknowledge that and process that and understand how these identities and privileges intersect and how race and class and profession governs the justice system and who's belief or you can create more cognitive distance and just say that person's lying. They would never do that. This other person, we know that they're nice, and that is the reaction so many will get because we have this idea of someone who causes harm is like the guy who leaps out from behind the bushes late at night, or they look a certain way because they're a person of color, their low income, or whatever stereotypes media and the culture has created about people who cause harm, which are obviously not an accurate reflection of reality. Abuse and violence can happen across all income levels and races and professions, and we've seen that happen at time and time again over the last few years with the Larry Nassars and Jeffrey Epstein's and Woody Allen's and all of these people who are you know, represent these like incredibly powerful elite identities, and that's why they were able to cover up their abuse for so long and render their survivors for their invisible because they were the antithesis of what people imagine or assume is someone who can abuse. While you were in foster care in your junior and senior years, were there some teachers who continued to support and embrace you, for example, your wellness teacher or the teacher who made that comment about people turning their backs? Did you feel supported by some members of your school community. I did, and honestly, I felt incredibly supported by the teachers there. I didn't really even when the community sentiment started to turn like the families and the kids, yes, that was who I felt more like the sentiment of disbelief and shame was coming from. Whereas the teachers, I felt, We're pretty consistent supporters and believers in me. I think where your story becomes somewhat controversial is when you go to college. You apply two pen and got a full ride at the University of Pennsylvania and the president at the time, Amy Gutman, defined her tenure in large part by her efforts to aggressively address inequality. So what were your impressions, Mackenzie of the school's efforts in this regard. Yeah, it was interesting to a lot of us in the it's pronounced Figley f g l I, which is the umbrella term for first generation and or low income students. And it was really hard to go there and show up and have no little to no resources because it is a fairly diverse community, Like people don't all have the same stories. And my friend and Nia Moore had a wonderful quote in the in the story about how different, you know, Figley doesn't fit into one shaper size. But something that was a pretty unanimous sentiment was feeling very unsupported by the administration because we didn't we didn't feel like we're being supported enough, and we had to fight for so much. Like when I got there, the all the dining halls closed on holidays and we had at least the first year students had to leave our dorms over winter break. And for students who don't have, you know, a safer study relationship with home, that's really hard and it's a source of panic. And yeah, there were a lot of things we had to fight for over the year, and that is the keyword fight. It wasn't something that we were hurt on the first time. And there was a lot of people who did a lot of organizing and work to advocate students who organized and worked to advocate for us. Let's talk about sort of the application process before we you get into PEN. What was your understanding mackenzie of what it meant to be first generation low income something that you wrote on your application to the University of Pennsylvania. Yeah, so just to clarify, I actually had never heard that acronym or knew what it was. So it wasn't my undergrad application but my grad application that UM there was like a box of the controversial box that I checked UM. Which it is confusing because I applied to grad school my first semester of sophomore year, UM, But the one when I was in high school applying to college, I didn't even know what that term was. UM. It wasn't something I had become aware of until I think the months leading up to coming to PEN. UM. But I was the coding system hadn't labeled me as thickly um, which when you were applying as an undergraduate, right, yes, And I applied through a program called Queste, which pairs students who are in more vulnerable positions UM, like being low income or first generation or having a different relationship with home, um with like higher performing schools. So that also is kind of was an added level of support. Let's talk about your college admissions essay, because you talked a lot about your home life. M hm. You know, I think there have been accusations, as you well know, that that was embellished or exaggerated. Can you talk about that and looking back on it, do you feel it might have been in any way, shape or form. So yeah, I guess just as context. Yeah, it was a poem I wrote, UM, which was very cheesy about the healing power of gratitude UM, which I feel like it is almost cringe when I say now, because I'm like, oh my gosh, seventeen year old genzi um. But so yeah, the first two paragraphs are talking about when I, you know, found myself in the hospital and looked at myself in the mirror and just felt like I couldn't recognize myself um, and then about the same teacher I referenced had told me to make a gratitude list, and I was like, what the funk are you talking? Why would I make a gratitude list. I'm in the hospital and I in my life fell over. Uh, And I decided, I guess I have nothing to lose, and so I started making a gratitude list while I was in the hospital, and I made them every day for years, and it really was such a healing thing for me, um, because it also so often refocused me on the people who supported me and not feeling alone. UM. So that was what the yes I was and I have obviously read it a zillion times in the last year and a half, um, and it's yeah, it's accurate with medical records. And one of the questions that carries the defense attorney asked me was, well, could you really not recognize yourself, like when you looked in the mirror? And yes, I could tell that it was me, Like, I, you know, there was a mirror and I was looking at it, um, but I you know, there are bruises all over my face I had, there was blood in my hair, and so it didn't feel like me. And I think that was that was one of the things that Penn's scrutinized um or I said there was blood in my hair, and they said there wasn't that much blood in my hair. So it was really like down to these nitpicky things, um, which yeah, we're not only true, but also you know, when you're writing an experience of like your trauma, I think I can say, like, I didn't recognize myself because I didn't, you know, like my myself as a human or like as a person in that moment um. Yeah. I don't know if that answers your question, but yeah, now it does. I mean, I guess so much of the controversy Mackenzie focuses on this first generation low income assignation. When you were put in that category or even check that category for your graduate school application, what were you thinking in terms of that characterizing your own experience. Yeah. So, because I had been quoted as a Figley student right off the bat, I was invited to a pre freshman program which takes like Figley students or vulnerable students um and brings them to campus about a month and a half early, just because I think the university had some idea that often students don't always have anywhere to go or don't know what to do over the summer, and I wasn't able to do that because I had a full time job already that summer. But as soon as I got to pen I started being invited to Figley events, uh, and just was so welcomed by the community. And it did feel like the first place where I felt like these are my people, like they understand what it's like to not necessarily have a home life or to be on full aid, which was a little bit like there was shame attached to that because there were so few of us. It wasn't something he went around, you know, saying like I'm a Figli student, UM, and and you know, I'm working all the time and I have multiple jobs and I can't do all the same extra extracurriculars you can do because I'm working. UM. And they got that, and they were experiencing things like that, and we all had different experiences, but we had this shared experience at Penn um of being in this like really elite space, which some of you know understood from my previous background and like knowledge of that, and also feeling like extremely out of place as well. UM. So yeah, when I applied to my grad school program. UM. I was nineteen and UM. I started working on it after the summer of my freshman year, after my freshman year UM, and then submitted it first semester sophomore year UM. And the essay part, which doesn't seem to be there's been no controversy over that, UM, which because it was just a question about why do you want to do social work? And I wrote about why I wanted to do social work UM and what I wanted to study and whatever. But the controversial boxes is there's two demographic questions, and one of them says like are you from a low income family? And the other one says like are you the first generation your family to attend college? UM. And I had been meeting with the associate director of admissions regularly and had asked her, like, how should I check these boxes? You know, like I don't really know what how to do this? And she said, you should check both the boxes. They're not used for admission, but they're used to for financial aid, and you should select what's going to give you the most financially UM. And that was consistent with when I asked her again and December she said the same thing. UM. So I kind of felt like, great, okay, this is why I'm supposed to do it was to check both the boxes. Um. And what really got me hung up, I think also was not just thinking like oh, this person told me to do it, but it was also the word family, and I was like, I don't have one of those, Like why would I ever reference them? Like why would I think about them? They don't have anything to do with me or who I am, um. And so I think there was an added level of like genuine anger and a need to like separate myself from them and not acknowledge them in any way. UM. So I just checked yes to both boxes and that was it and I moved on. Um. There wasn't like a place to add more information. So in retrospect, I'm like, I wish there had been like a do you want to elaborate more box? But there is yes or no, and like, at the time, yes to both of those felt like the right answer. UM, And eventually the pen like agreed, yes, you're definitely a low income student, UM, Like thank you. UM. But it was the first generation part in that box that there has been controversy about. You must have been very conflicted with the particularly with the first generation part. I'm assuming the low income was true because you had no support from your family to go to college, correct, Correct, And no one could have paid your admission to the University of Pennsylvania or any other school. Right. But the first generation part is sort of the thorny part, right. And I think I'm just curious if you felt conflicted about that, or if you ever expressed to some of the other students like, oh, like, you know, they put me in this category, but I'm really not a first generation to go to college. Yeah. I mean it's interesting because I have never identified myself as a first generation student because it is complicated. And even though I fit into Penn's category, like they have pretty extensive and expansive category of first generation and I did fit their definition, it was something I didn't feel like I identified with the experiences of first generation in some ways. I felt like when I got to college, like all these people were calling their parents to like read over an email they're sending to a professor or like help them with stuff, and I was like, oh my god, what do I do? Um? But like, you know, going into college, I did have that understanding of what it means to navigate higher education. UM. So that was why I never claimed like the first generation part of thickly UM. It's an umbrella terms. You don't say like I'm Lee or I'm like big UM, so you just reference yourself as bigly. But besides like that the box UM and at the time, like I just felt like if I have to put myself in a yes or no box, like that is what felt truer UM at the moment, But it wasn't ever an identity that I like claimed UM or like talked about myself as having UM and my friends like didn't know about my background and like my my who my bio family was UM and some of what had happened to me, and I was very private about it in terms of like the abuse and a lot of that my friends like literally learned about when the article came out UM, which I gave them a warning. I was like, you know, it's going to talk a lot about some of my experiences of abuse UM. But they knew, you know, and a lot of us like shared our different stories because some of what is qualified as like low income for first generation or like people's parents who were doctors in another country, but then they came to this country and their degrees aren't you know, Like everyone had these different experiences, so within the big league community, it was pretty common to share them, um and even just support one another in terms of like navigating and trying to understand the shared experience. You were obviously and are incredibly impressive student academically, and in the summer of you decided to apply for a Rhodes scholarship, and that November you were named as one of thirty two scholar elects. Yes, what did that mean to you? What was that like to be in that small group of people. It definitely it felt like a shock a little bit, um because all of these people who you know, also were named Road scholars were amazing and just I could run a country, I mean, um, And I think a lot of people have a little bit of impostor syndrome even just being compared to all of these incredibly brilliant and just incredible organizers and social justice UM oriented people. And so I felt a little bit like anxious of almost like, oh my god, am I really supposed to be here? But I also felt, going back to my underground essay, extremely grateful um that I had the opportunity to go and study what I wanted to study, which was the Foster care to prison pipeline. You got the Rhodes scholarship, and shortly after that there was an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Yes, this is why this story has layer upon layers. It's sort of like and then and then. But this article started with this sentence, Mackenzie Fearston grew up poor. Yes, you never told the reporter that you grew up for why do you think she came to that conclusion? So she did actually talk to rachel Or sending emails my understanding, and um, it was because I described myself as bigly and also because Penn and their announcement described me as bigly. So it seems like that was an assumption of if you're figly, then you had to have grown up like that your entire life. So did you talked to this reporter about any circumstances surrounding your childhood and this very unusual, uh series of events that led you to be completely cut off from your mother from any kind of financial aid, etcetera, etcetera. So the initial interview that we had was like about twenty minutes. Um, and mostly was centered around what I wanted to study. I said that I went into foster care and mid high school. UM. And she asked me why, and I just said, you know, it was really intribuse, but I don't want to go into it and it doesn't really feel relevant to what I want to study, which is what you asked me about. UM. And that was really the extent of anything we talked about related to my background. And uh, it was the next day when the article came out, UM, was when we had a more extensive conversation and really went through the whole life history with this reporter. Yes, with this reporter. Did she ever follow up or correct the article it having gotten more information from you? Because if I were reporting that story, I would say this, this requires more exposition. Mm hmm. Yeah. No. So the only time, at least immediately that I heard from her was she just said, you know, I wanted to give you a heads up. There was no email. I unfortunately get these a lot, so I'm not really planning to do anything about it. UM. And when she called me to tell me that was when we had a longer conversation about birth to the present UM and related the whole nuances, and yeah, to this day, there has never been a correction on the article, so it's still out there on the interwebs. Um, even with obviously all this information, I can't tell you why that is. She did correct the headline which I asked her to correct, which said I grew up in foster care. Um, and she did correct that, but there has never been a correction on the group board part. Did you ever claim in either your application or any kind of forms or essays two pen that you quote unquote grew up in foster care? Mackenzie No, I actually was pretty clear, and I didn't remember when I first was that came out. I was like, did I say something that was misleading? And then I obviously went back and read through all my stuff and on my undergrad application, I actually say in multiple places that I went into foster care beginning of my junior year, and one of them I even gave the exact date. UM, so I was very clear about that. Stay with us for more of my conversation with Mackenzie Fierston. Right after this, when the article came out in the Philadelphia Inquirer saying you grew up poor, the reporter got an anonymous email questioning that. But then the floodgates opened and many people were accusing you of lying about your situation and trying to gain the system. Essentially, what was that like for you to watch all these people or to hear or see them questioning your credibility and your life experience? So it was interesting because initially it was one anonymous email, and then I later found out about two, and so I I really didn't feel discredited or disbelieved on a wide scale. UM. And when I eventually saw the emails, it felt pretty clear to me that they were from my bio family. UM, but it was really you know. A week later, after the article came out and after I was named a Rhodes Scholar, I got an email from the director of the called CURF but it's the Center for Undergraduate Research and Fellowships, saying that she and the deputy provost now interim Provost, Beth Winkelstein, wanted to meet with me via zoom And I said, you know, what is this about? UM? They just said it doesn't matter, we need to meet with you. And I said again, like, is this about the anonymous emails? I'm already aware I've worked with Penn Police and the Women's Center, Civic House, like all these different communities who were very aware of the situation and they are happy to fill you in on it. And they said, no, we need to talk to you, and I said, okay, but I'm bringing someone with me who was at the time the senior associate director of Civic House, because I just felt a little bit on edge about what this was going to be. Uh So I showed up to this. It was a zoom call, and it just felt like an immediate interrogation. UM. It started off with Beth Wingelstein saying to the support person that I brought, I know you're here to support Mackenzie, but you cannot speak. If you speak, I'll disconnect you from the zoom call. Mackenzie, you're the only one who has loved to answer. You need to answer my questions exactly, and if you don't, like, I'm going to cut you off and go back to the question. And so it just immediately I was like having flashbacks to deposition depositions UM and like cross examinations I was having. And she started asking me questions about my application, some of the same things that we just talked about. And then pretty abruptly switched to questions about my abuse, and they were very specific, so it became pretty clear to me that they had either reviewed medical records or spoken to my bio mom, which I later have found out that is what happened. Um. And so it's just kind of this like drill of questions. What happened that you went to foster care, and what were injuries? Why were you in the hospital that long? How long was the abuse going on? Was their abuse with your mom's partner? Like, it was just this rapid fire of questions and by the end, I'm like hyperventilating and crying, maybe harder than I've ever cried in my life, and like literally couldn't speak at the end. And then she was like, Okay, great, We're done, and that that was it. Um. She did at the very end offered to connect me to support UM and I was like, I think, I'm okay, I'm going to schedule next to therapy session. Thank you though for giving me content for that session. UM. So that was the first I guess, um downwards turn of events after you were questioned by the Deputy provost and the very emotional experience you have the school ultimately sent a letter to the Roads Trust stating that you failed to quote acknowledge your upper middle class upbringing, and that you provided this description of a life of abuse that the judicial process concluded could not be substantiated. The Roads Trust launched its own investigation, and you eventually withdrew from the program. Why do you think this letter said a description of a life of abuse could not be substantiated. There's a few reasons I think that was the case. One of them is because unfortunately, that's what a lot of people rely on, is this could only happen if there was a conviction, when we know in reality, I can't remember the exact numbers, but I think it's about like percent of people report one percent go to trial, and like point one percent um get convictions. So it's extremely hard in cases of abuse and assault for their effort to be conviction, let alone when it's a white like a pretty white woman who's a doctor. It was I mean, looking back, it has felt like David and Goliath, um and so. But it was at the same time still pretty shocking to me to read that they had put that in print. And then I came to learn that the general counsel Wendy White had been in consistent contact with my bio family. Um. They had. She invited them to write multiple emails to her to help write that letter. Also spoken to my bio mom's defense attorney, which wasn't surprising because a lot of the questions that I was asked in this interrogation were almost exactly what I was asked in the cross examination of a trial that happened in March of nineteen. So I think both of those things probably influenced them. You know, they started immediately not with asking me, but literally within forty eight hours of this anonymous email, Wendy White was on the phone with with Carrie, which still shocks me. Um And I didn't learn about that until a couple of months ago. But if you start not with asking like a survivor what their experience wise, and you just immediately go to the abuser and say like, oh, did you abuse that person, they're probably going to say now. Um And So I think they went into writing that letter with a lot of disbelief and the same accusations that were thrown out by my bio family. How do you think your mom characterized you, McKenzie? I mean did she say you were a difficult girl, that you were troubled? How did she turned the tables and place the blame on you to the point that pen would write a letter like that. My understanding is she repeated the narrative she said when I went into foster care, which is that I was a troubled kid. I was severely mentally ill. I made everything up. I hadn't heard this one, but there was an uh. One of my bio ants wrote in this email to Wendy White that I had planted my own blood and used the movie Gone Girl to stage this mass abuse, which I don't know if I've ever seen, and I googled it and the movie came out after I went into foster care. Um, so there was a lot of the same kind of gaslighting behavior and accusation. And when I went into foster care that we're repeated. I was wondering, if you felt you were seeing these biases play out over and over again, that you're accomplished, pretty successful. Dr Mom could not have in a million years been capable of hurting her only child. Yes, absolutely, And that's really the reason I want to tell my story is because I do think it's emblematic of these societal notions of who can be abusive and who can cause harm. And we know, at least cognitively as a culture that that isn't true again because we've had me too. We've had all of these moments of like reckoning with oh my god, white successful, like academically educated people can also cause harm, like mind blowing, and we've had to reckon with this. And still there are people and unfortunately a lot of people who don't see that, and especially almost everyone who's been involved with this have also been white, highly educated professionals um and I don't think that's a coincidence that these people are the ones who are having a hard time believing that this can happen by someone who looks like them. By the way, I want to read something that one of your peers, Anamore, who helped found pen First, which was an organization supporting low income first generation PEN students. She wrote on on Your Behalf to the Roads Trust and I wanted to read this because I think it will help listeners understand some of the forces that have been at work in your whole story. She wrote, when I founded pen First, it was for students just like McKenzie and her membership and leadership at the club was welcomed with open arms. Bagily kids can go to private school and or college preparatory school, just as mackenzie did. We are not all inner city children who live in filthy ghettos and attend crumbling, rat infested public schools as the wider media made portray us to be. What did you think of that letter? And Nia is one of the most brilliant people that I know, and obviously so eloquent and powerful in everything she says, uh, And I thought she did an incredible job of capturing again the connection between my personal story and why I'm sharing it. And that's because like these systems and institutions uphold these beliefs of who can cause harm and who can do bad things, and that's why we are where we are, you know, with still fighting tooth and nail to be believed. Um. And the level of silencing that survivors like face uh, and the reasons that some people face that more than others. I think she captured that beautifully, UM, with that sentiment and the assumptions people make about others, and there are experiences, absolutely, and I think that's so much of what the hallwork of the story is like, it is the assumption people make is even though the average time in foster cares about eleven months, people make the assumption that, just like Annia said that foster kids are from quote inner city, rat infested public schools, who have been in foster care their whole life and their parents were addicts. You know, they make all these assumptions. And you know, I'm certainly not under any illusion that I am like the average foster kid. Like obviously that's not true, but it's also not what people associate as Like the typical foster kid doesn't exist either, because those are rooted in biases and racism and classism, um. And I think that's hard for people to unpack because we have to acknowledge that exists within all of us, myself included. We all have biases, we all exist in the world um that enforces those biases. But I think it's really hard for people to sit with that and understand our partner it and also understand that we have to do something every day to dismantle it, and that silence just upholds the status quo. You withdrew from the Rhodes Scholarship program that I'm wondering, do you think you could have made your case and as a result, educated more people if you had stayed and thought a system that you believe mischaracterized your situation and mistreated you. So I guess a couple of things come to mind. UM. One, I did initially fight. You know, PEN tried very hard to get me to not fight. UM. They threatened both of my degrees. They tried to throw an n DA at me, um, if you know, saying that if I didn't sign it and withdraw from the Roads scholarship, then they would make sure my undergrad degree was revoked. UM. Or at least that was my understanding. All this happened over the phone, So there's different perspectives on what it said, UM, But there was a lot. There was a great effort, and this was by PEN at the time not the Road stressed to not have me submit my initial defense. UM. And then I did, Like you said, I submitted tens over a hundred pages of medical documents, police records, letters, like you said, about thirty of them from detectives and states attorneys and elementary, middle and high school teachers and friends, all corroborating my abuse and um my figly status. And then they came back with their initial report UM, and they recommended that it be rescinded. So then I had another chance to kind of rebut some of what they had found, and I wanted to do that because there were one just some pretty basic errors like my name, UM, and like my place of birth and that I didn't have a sibling, and just like pretty easily refutable UM claims that they made. And that was when counts the General Counsel came back UM and again kind of made these threats and intimidation of she needs to withdraw and sign an agreement with us and signed a claims agreement that she's not going to sue us or we're gonna never give her her MSW. We're going to start proceedings to revoke her undergrad degree UM because like you said, I wrote about the instance of abuse, which they think qualifies as like false information on my application since it wasn't upheld um in the court of law. And this time there was the added threat of they would report me to the federal government for wire fraud if again I didn't withdraw from the roads and sign this NBA with them. Uh So federal prison is no jokes. I was a little scared um by that, even though I later came to find out that was a tool for intimidation and there was absolutely no case um for that. But I ended up with drawing and but still fighting Penn, and obviously to this day, I'm still fighting pen Um. You know, I filed a lawsuit against them. They also are trying to make me write a letter of apology um, which I will not be doing obviously, because the only people who deserve an apology are me and all survivors. And I feel like that is a pathway I'm using to try to fight for, you know, accountability and change, and also telling my entire story to the internet for the rest of my life feels like a pretty radical way to share my story. And I guess the other reason, and I think this is really important that I now am not wondering if it would have been any different if I use that last level of the appeal is because I learned that I'm the third rhodeswoman who this has happened to, who has lost their scholarship because of anonymous letters, and at least one of them is a survivor, and it seems to me that there's a pretty sexist trend among the roads trust of making people or making certain decisions to view certain women's applications based on anonymous claims. And I actually did recently retain a British law firm to investigate potential options because I do think that's another opportunity to you know, fight and look for accountability and change change the system that you feel abuse to really all over again. Yeah, because this is what it looks like, in my opinion, when people with power abuse and shame and belittle and disbelieve survivors. And this is what it looks like when abusers power and privilege in bolden disbelief and perpetuate the you know, systemic abuse again that's rooted within our society, um. And it's really important that we at least in my opinion, that we expand the conversation around me too to not just you know, the sharing of story, which is so important. And I really do believe that when we share, we heal, and that every survivor who wants to have their story told should be heard and healed. And we also need to think about why do so many of us have these stories like It's not just coincidence. It's because there are systems and institutions which keep us quiet and allow the violence to keep happening. When we come back the next chapter in mackenzie story, what's ahead for you? You changed your name from Fierston. I did, yes, that was actually before all of this, um So I changed it in December of nineteen UM and that is also representative. I think of a lot of the core of the story of wanting to separate myself from my family of origin and embrace sort of my own identity as the person I want to be and feel like I've fought to find and heal, which I guess is um this is not exactly your question, but I feel like I've kind of learned that healing is an act of reaching inwards, and for me that was like finding the person that was always there and realizing it wasn't me who was broken, or it wasn't that I didn't know who I was. It was feeling like I needed to bring back or find like more of who I was and like the actual Mackenzie that had been erased over years of abuse. And that was part of what changing my name to something that I felt like represented that finding of myself and like really embracing that meant to me. While you withdrew from being a Rhodes scholar, you were still able to enroll in the sociology PhD program. And so tell me where you are in terms of your educational and personal journey now. Yeah, So, I, like you said, I'm in my first year of my PhD at Oxford. I'm going into my third trimester. Uh, and it's been great. I mean, I've this is what I set out to do, to study the relationship between incarceration and foster care. So I've been developing my proposal and I'm getting ready to defend it um in our oral exam coming up and then hopefully start my field work fingers crossed um once again ethics approval. And personally, it's so complicated because I have felt tremendous liberation and power in the story being released, which I didn't know if I would feel. But there is so much shame in the silence, and I feel like silence just breathes shame, and so I feel like deciding to tell the story was and still is extremely healing, even though it's opening me up to more disbelief and shaming. It also feels like but it's out there, like it's not a secret anymore. And that has been so powerful for me. And you know, life is going to keep going. I'm still fighting with pen UM. I'm still fighting fighting to make change within pen and more broadly and within the Roads trust. And that's going to be hard, and they're gonna be days where I feel the shame and I feel tired and exhausted and think to myself like, oh my God, did I make you know? Should I keep going with all of this? And I feel like it's importan and to acknowledge that because I feel like sometimes people get a chance to share their voice and they're like, everything is great now, you know, I had a happy ending, And I feel like it's important to relay and realistic expectation of like what it means to come forward with your story and what the healing process looks like. Um, it is hard, and so they're good days and bad days, and I hope they will keep being more good ones and that we will find justice. What would you say, Mackenzie to the people at PEN and to the administration at large about their handling up this situation so much? I want to say, uh, and this goes really not just to pen but to all institutions. And that's something I also want to emphasize and not to be lost is it's not as if this is just like one bad university or one bad sad story. It's it happens everywhere. And I hope that it doesn't get you know, exceptionalized, because it's not an exception, it's the rule, like this is what happens, um And I feel like what I want to say is that survivors deserve to be heard and believed and seen and to be treated with respect and compassion and not shamed. And at the least maybe abusers shouldn't be the first point of contact, and legal precedent shouldn't be the only precedent for truth. And most importantly to me, the truth really is something that cannot be changed, and I'm not going to let anyone tell me that it's different or try to manipulate it anymore. Hopefully people will really understand all of these kind of twists and weren't in your story, Mackenzie. But what would you say to people who hear this story and somehow still cling to the notion that you manipulated the truth or took advantage of a loophole or quote unquote gain the system. Honestly, I don't really have anything to say to them, and I don't even want to give them any power because at this point there's not much I can do to convince them otherwise. And more honestly, what comes to mind, which this isn't exactly related, but it's something I would want to tell my younger self because this, this disbelief and like people who are set on disbelieving me, has occurred since day one. I'm sure if you read the New York article, you saw, like the initial article that came out saying that Carrie had been arrested, had just it was almost unanimous comments that I was spoiled, brat, that I needed all up um, among many worst sentiments. And I wish I could go back and tell my younger self not to listen to those voices, and that it's it's worth it to keep fighting for the truth because it doesn't change. And even though there's times when you're gonna feel crazy, and there's times when those people make you feel like you're crazy or you're wrong or something you know happened for fact didn't happen. You have to ground yourself and the truth um and find and surround yourself with people who are going to help you do that. So I read Yes Janelle Miller's book No My Name, and she had this sentiment that it was something along the lines of know your truth, hold on to your truth, it will carry you where you need to go. And I wish I had read that seven years ago when I was a teenager in this all began, because I feel like it is exactly what I needed to hear. Thank you so much again to Mackenzie Feerston for sharing her story with me. We also reached out to the University of Pennsylvania for a statement. Here is that response. The New Yorker article did not accurately reflect the university's thorough, careful and sensitive investigation into the very serious questions which were raised by prior judicial rulings and the findings of the Roads Trust, another reputable institution that conducted its own extensive review of the facts. It is our mission to do everything possible to support all our students and to ensure that under resource students have access to Penn's world class educational opportunities. We have always recognized that this particular situation involves a painful family experience, and we have consistently approached it with empathy and a thoughtful consideration of all of the facts available to us. As an institution, we cannot overlook the importance of integrity in our university community or ignore clear violations of our principles and ethical code, because we have a responsibility to ensure that all members of our community, most especially other young people, have fair and honest access to opportunities. That, again, is the response from the University of Pennsylvania. Next Question with Katie Kurik is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers Army, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrek Clements. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my morning newsletter, wake Up Call, go to Katie Correct dot com. You can also find me at Katie Correct on Instagram and all my social media channels. 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