067 | CONTROL with Kelli (Henderson) Chapman, Orthopedic Physician Assistant and Former Conference MVP D1 Athlete

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I talk about this still with my mom to this day. It is devastating to not be an athlete anymore.

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They don't talk about it enough. They don't prepare you enough when you are in those four years of being an athlete. They try, hey, maybe you really start focusing on your career, but you're just like tunnel vision. You love something so much and you're good at it, and that's what drives you every single day. I remember my final game and I was excited, but then I was not anticipating the sadness and the depression that would hit me for the months to come.

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I remember sitting in the corner of my room just crying because I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with my life now.

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I feel like I have lost the first love of my life. It's just gone.

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What hit me the hardest when things ended for softball is, okay, it's over. I don't have any control of it. What can I control now?

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How can I progress forward with my life? Softball is not who I am. It was what I did. My name is Kelly Chapman and I'm an orthopedic surgery physician assistant and I am undone.

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Hey friend, I am glad you're here. Welcome to another episode of Becoming Undone, the podcast for those who dare bravely, risk mightily, and grow relentlessly.

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I'm Toby Brooks, the speaker, author, and professor.

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Over the past two decades, I've worked as an athletic trainer and a strength coach, and over the years, I've grown more and more fascinated with what sets high achievers apart and how failures that suck in the moment can end up being exactly the spark we needed to launch us on our path to success.

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Each week on Becoming Undone I invite new guests to examine how high achievers can transform from falling apart to falling into place.

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If this is your first episode, you picked a good one.

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Not only was Kelly Chapman an absolute stud of an athlete during her playing days, her resilience and commitment toward first seeing, then materializing her dreams is absolutely remarkable.

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I hope you love it, and I hope you'll enjoy her story and her show enough to decide to get inspired by other high achievers who didn't let failure stand in the way of eventual victory.

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If you're a regular, am I ever thankful for you. This journey hasn't been easy and there were times I wanted to quit, but you inspired and encouraged me. So for real, thanks.

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I'd like to emphasize that this show is entirely separate from my role as a professor, but it's my attempt to apply what I've learned and what I'm learning and to share with others about the mindsets of high achievers. For Kelly Henderson Chapman, early successes as an All-State softball player turned into a scholarship at nearby University of Northern Colorado. After a stellar collegiate career, she found herself uncertain about her future but drawn to a career in athletic health care. After completing her master's degree and working for a few years as an athletic trainer, she decided she wanted more and set off on a quest to become a physician assistant.

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With most PA programs drawing thousands of applicants for only a handful of spots, her first year she didn't get so much as an interview.

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However, she stayed the course and eventually found herself at Colorado Mesa University.

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Now a board certified physician assistant with Parkview Medical Center in Pueblo, Colorado, today she finds herself still running down those dreams the same way she always has, with vision, tenacity, and commitment to seeing things through. I hope you'll enjoy my conversation with the incredible Kelly Chapman in episode 67, Control. This one's been a long time coming folks, whether it was schedules or illness or whatever, but I'm super excited to have Kelly Chapman in-house today. Kelly, thanks for joining me. Thank you so much for having me, Dr. Brooks, it's an honor.

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It still amazes me that I have students from a decade ago and they still call me Dr. Brooks.

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We're colleagues now and if anything, I could work for you these days.

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You're an orthopedic PA and a storied career as an athlete, so I'm really looking forward to digging in and hearing your story because I know it wasn't all just storybook endings and it didn't always go according to plan, but there's strength in that, there's power in that.

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So I'm looking forward to hearing you tell your story.

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So I always start with a little bit of an easy one.

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What did you want to be growing up and why?

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First off, I do want to thank you for being on here.

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You are a mentor to me and you are one of the many reasons of where I am today.

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And you made me, you just shaped me into who I am and you're you are a big part of that Thanks Growing up. I don't know. I didn't know who I wanted to be if I'm being honest I was thinking about that when I was preparing for the show and you had those questions that you sent us and I'm like Growing up you I really didn't have an idea of who I wanted to be I knew that my parents started me early and sports and being outside.

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Growing up in Colorado, it's like taboo if you're inside, but we have great weather all year round, we have snow.

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And it was always go outside, be with your brothers, be involved in something outdoors.

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So they got me introduced into softball when I was five years old.

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I also did track and basketball, but softball seemed to be the sport that really stuck with me.

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And that's what I knew.

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That's what I wanted to do my whole life and it sounds silly but I was I was good at it and I loved it and I wanted to be a softball player my whole life Which yeah, you know knowing now is a little unrealistic, but You know our paths first crossed that at Texas Tech where you came to study athletic training But prior to that you were a highly successful athlete.

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According to my research, you were all state for the Cherry Creek Bruins, two straight state semifinal appearances, and you go to the University of Northern Colorado where you're a main state.

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So talk me through those formative experiences and maybe the recruitment process.

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You stayed fairly close to home.

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What were those opportunities and what were those dreams like for young Kelly in high school?

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It truly was a dream.

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High school, we were very successful.

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We were only one of two sports at my high school that had never won a state championship.

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So talk about some pressure, but we did make it to the semifinals twice, unfortunately, never took home that state championship, but it was an experience.

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And like I said, it was a love for me.

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It was easy to go to practice.

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It was easy to be a student and then just know that I was going to practice after school.

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It was easy for me to practice on the weekends.

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I didn't have a lot of friends in high school because I was always traveling and playing softball, but it didn't seem like work to me.

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It didn't seem hard to me.

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It was just something that I loved so deeply.

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And I consider myself lucky because I feel like I had good success early in my life and that was the softball and I had a deep passion for it and so it was easy to play softball. But there were so many characteristics that I learned through high school and through college that made me who I was.

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You don't just make it through on talent alone, you have to work hard, you have to practice. And so those are things that I learned in high school and then continued on to college. It's just what I loved. And in college, I did, I feel like where I peaked in my life at the time was I was my senior year of college, I was conference player of the year, and it was a unanimous decision by the conference. And that I feel like that was my peak in life. And then from there were things unraveled.

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But I learned so many things in college, how to be resilient, how to work hard.

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We, our workouts were ridiculous, but you get a comradery that you have with your teammates.

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And I met some of my greatest friends, some of my best friends there who become your family.

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I think softball in general gave me the characteristics in who I am today.

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Yeah.

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A lot of former athletes have talked about how disorienting it was when sport was suddenly over with, the regimented schedule, being told by a coach or a strength staff or whomever, academic, where to be, when to be, how to be, and then suddenly that's gone.

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And you realize pretty quickly whether or not those lessons stuck, whether or not you have the ability to do that for yourself.

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So that transition where our paths initially crossed, and I don't think I, until recently, I didn't give it enough credit that how difficult it can be on a young athlete to transition out of sport.

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Most of us in athletic training were former athletes at some point, and we all do it at some level, whether that's high school, college or beyond.

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But for you, the last time you took that uniform off, whether that was your conference tournament or wherever that happened, talk me through the emotions and the thought process of Kelly, the softball player to Kelly, the former athlete or softball player.

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Oh, I, I talk about this still with my mom to this day.

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It is devastating to not be an athlete anymore.

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It really is like, and they don't talk about it enough.

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They don't prepare you enough when you are in those four years of being an athlete.

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They try, hey, maybe really start focusing on your career, but you're just like tunnel vision.

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You love something so much and you're good at it and that's what drives you every single day.

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This right here is the razor that cuts the high achiever either way. As Kelly pointed out, many in the sports world, whether they be coaches, support staff like athletic trainers or strength coaches, academic support people, or just others, they do try. They try to ready athletes for life after sport. Some places do it better than others, but it's been said that you can't give two competing concerns your simultaneous, undivided attention.

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To focus heavily on life after sport would be to take away from life during sport.

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So Kelly did what most do.

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She focused on the present and made the most of her opportunities on the diamond.

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But when those days, and more importantly, that identity were suddenly over, what was left was a gaping void that she didn't exactly know how to fill.

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You wake up, you have early workouts, you go to class, you are on that, exactly, that regimen schedule.

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You have someone making all the workouts for you and really driving your day.

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And then I remember my final game and I was excited, but then I didn't, I was not anticipating the sadness and the depression that would hit me for the months to come.

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I remember sitting in the corner of my room just crying because I was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life now.

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I feel like I had lost the first love of my life.

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And that sounds cheesy, but it's so true.

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It's just gone.

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And for women, it's not something, like sure, if I was a male and I played baseball, I may have had more opportunities.

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But as a woman, there's some professional softball leagues and I could have gone overseas to play but opportunities are not there for softball and so it was a train wreck. I was a mess if I'm being honest. It is devastating and I still think even to this day there is nothing that gives me the drive and the passion that softball gave me. Like when I go back to play for my alumni game that adrenaline even just playing for two innings, nothing compares to that love and to that drive. And so I don't think it's talked about enough. And it is sad, just because exactly what I said, you don't have someone there coaching you and driving your day. You have to figure it out for yourself again. And you learn how to be strong and resilient, how to work hard, when to show up on time, how to be accountable for yourself, how to be accountable for others, but who knows what to do next.

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And maybe it was my fault for being so tunnel vision, but like I said, that was my love.

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I didn't want to do anything else.

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So it really is hard.

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It took me a long time to get over that depression.

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And it's not even a hard depression where I couldn't function as a person, but it was definitely life-changing.

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Yeah.

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And you really didn't have the luxury of being non-functioning very long, because you find yourself in Lubbock and you're in anatomy, maybe taking the hardest class of your life right away, and you're trying to process through this grief while at the same time, new city, community to speak of and academic challenges on a level you hadn't experienced before.

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So what was that transition like moving from Greeley to Lubbock in the midst of all of these life changes?

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Yes, I knew what there was one thing that did pique my interest when I was in undergrads and that was my anatomy and physiology class.

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And I knew I had to run with that during the reflection time of being in between Greeley and Lubbock and that's when I applied to Texas Tech. It was the only school I applied to and I told myself if I get in then I'm going because that's gonna be my leap of faith. That's gonna be where I'm supposed to go. I graduated in May and I think I started out there the following year. So I had about a year off to prepare mentally, get ready for a new city. I didn't know anyone in, I knew one person.

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Never have been away from my family like that.

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And then yeah, to start that growth anatomy class, that is a very challenging class.

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I had been challenged academically, but really it was more I'd been challenged athletically in life.

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So I had to rework my mind and place my hard work into different areas of life.

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It wasn't so much athletic ability anymore. I had to start using my brain a little more and focus on what am I gonna do with my life.

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Yeah, that gross anatomy class, it was not an easy class to start. But again, just relating back to an athlete, you work hard, you are resilient, you put your head down, you work through it. Yeah, I think that's what got me there.

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Yeah, there's a documentary that came out that Michael Phelps produced during COVID.

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I don't know if you've seen it or not, called The Weight of Gold.

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And he talks about how prevalent behavioral mental health issues and depression in particular are for athletes following an Olympic Games.

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But I think there's definitely connections that any athlete could make to that.

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And within it, he makes mention of the fact that there's a stigma associated with talking about feelings and acknowledging depression, that dark season you found yourself in.

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You've been programmed all this time as an aspiring D1 athlete to be tough, to be gritty, to push through and any sign of depression is interpreted as weakness.

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Weakness can be exploited.

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They make mention of the fact that maybe second only to the military, the stigma surrounding athletes really talking about their emotions is damaging.

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For you in that season, you mentioned you were laser focused on the task at hand, but once that was over, talk me through that time period following and your identity.

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What did you latch onto to get through that season?

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That's a good question.

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I don't know.

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I think you just have to be confident in yourself and in your abilities that I've made it through tough games, I've made it through tough workouts, I can make it through this tough period in my life.

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But you also have to rely on others, like your family, your support system.

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I think that's where I relied on most is probably my parents and my family, talking with them, because you're right, there is a stigma.

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We're so strong, you're athletic, it's taboo if you have feelings or weaknesses or depression, but it's real.

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I don't know, thinking back, it was probably nine years ago, ten years ago, I worked as a waitress for a year and that was just, I think, just to get me by for that time.

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I kept working out, I tried to stay physical, I tried to stay active because really being physical is good for your brain and endorphins.

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And so I tried to keep some kind of regimen, but I did stumble.

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I, of course, was not doing the best things for myself, probably during that year.

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And so Lubbock, I think, was that fresh restart in life.

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Okay, this is where I'm gonna be now.

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Again, I have to shift my feelings and my goals.

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Really, it's probably about goals in life at that time.

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Yeah.

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My son and I talk about this.

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He's a pitcher.

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He's going into a senior year of high school and he loves the mental aspect of being a pitcher.

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I'm in control of the game.

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The tempo relies on me.

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So there's a mentality that's a little different in a pitcher than in a position player and it's unique in baseball and softball. And as I'm seeing him contemplate, am I going to play in college, am I not, is this it, is this my last season, that mentality is a bit of a double-edged sword because control can be a real illusion. And spending your formative years all through high school as an all-conference player of the year, you've got this notion that I'm in control.

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I dictate this.

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Then suddenly you realize that, like you said, there aren't opportunities for you.

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You aren't in control of the next level.

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What was that like to wrestle with maybe that mentality, the thing that had made you better than everybody else, now maybe is making it harder for you to move on to a healthy, happy life.

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It's so true when you talk about that because you are in control. You're in control of the game. You're in control of your mind.

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I think I still struggle with that lack of control even today. There's things, if I do not have control of it, it drives me crazy.

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But it's so funny that you say that because it's so true.

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But I think you just have to rewire your mind.

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There's a lot of things out of your control and that's probably what hit me the hardest when things ended for softball is, okay, what's over?

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I don't have any control of it.

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What can I control now?

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How can I progress forward with my life?

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I want to be successful.

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Softball is not who I am. It was what I did. And so controlling that mental aspect of, okay, what's next?

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Kelly sneaks this gym right across the corner of the zone.

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And I remember during the interview thinking, wow, I need to go back and unpack that some more. So now even as I'm editing the show, it hits me again, right between the eyes. Kelly says it. Softball is not who I am, it's what I did.

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For so many of us, somewhere along the way, our identity gets all tangled up with our experiences.

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When the context for those experiences suddenly disappears, like when you're out of eligibility, or your career is cut short by injury, or any of a thousand things, it can be darn near impossible to disentangle them from one another.

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Where do I end and my sport, or my art, or my job end.

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If who Kelly was was a softball player, then what was left when softball was taken away?

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Instead, her wisdom here is profound, and I believe it comes from a place of deep, heavy, internal work.

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It's been forged both through tears and time.

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But with time, she's come to understand that softball wasn't who she was.

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It was what she did. And what was left was a young woman who knew how to make, chase, and capture her goals.

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She knew how to stick to a plan, how to build a team, and perhaps most importantly, for the seasons to come in life, how to pick herself up after a tough loss and bring the energy and the effort that it would take to try again and win.

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I don't know what's next, and that's also a piece that you have no control over.

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It was easy for me to practice and get good at something.

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With softball, I could go out and throw a thousand pitches, do a thousand hits off the tee, and I would see progression in my activity and how I got better in softball.

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What do I do now?

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What do I have control over?

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I can't practice a career if I don't know where I'm going.

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I can't practice something that I have no control over because there's nothing to practice.

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What do I practice?

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And so that lack of control is really hard.

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So I think, again, just recentering your goals and figuring out, okay, this isn't going this way anymore.

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What can I do now?

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How can I control?

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It really is so much about your mind because I could have gone one of two ways right like I was in this horrible depression state right after softball and I could have spiraled down and I don't know done nothing but I knew I wanted to still be successful in life and so just figuring out the controllables I liked anatomy okay so let's go from there I can control that a little bit. So let's go to athletic training and then practice that, be great at it.

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At Texas Tech, I guess I had to get good at practicing academics because in undergrad, I really only had about a 3.0, but then I went to Texas Tech and I guess that's where my control came in. Let's get really good grades. Let's just do well in this area. Let's be the best like you were in softball and we'll go from there. We'll figure it out.

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Yeah. I think the thing I love the most about this show, especially the former students that I've had the privilege of getting interviewed just like you, is it helps close the circle.

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I think growth always requires, obviously it requires goal setting and it requires pursuit in that direction. For you, it was practice and working out and eating right and doing those things. Okay, that's part of it. Then we see the evidence of that, just like you mentioned.

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If you're hitting a thousand balls off a tee or pitching and hitting spots, you see that.

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But the last bit that I've not been great at over my career, and I feel like I'm getting better and now recognizing the importance of it, is the reflection.

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What worked well, what didn't work well.

00:23:09.559 --> 00:23:35.460
When I reflect on you and some other students that came in, I made a lot of assumptions about how you're a D1 athlete and you've got schedule ironed out, you're doing great academically, you've got a smile on your face, you're happy, you're well adjusted, you're succeeding.

00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:41.000
And in retrospect, I even think, oh, she was a softball player.

00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:43.000
As your clin-ed coordinator, we put you with softball.

00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:45.000
I think you asked for it, but I can't recall.

00:23:45.000 --> 00:23:55.000
And in retrospect, that might not have been the best choice because I know for myself, as a basketball player, I wanted to be an athletic trainer because I love the sport ethos.

00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.000
I love the team environment.

00:23:57.000 --> 00:23:59.000
But being with basketball hurt a little too much.

00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:01.000
It was too soon.

00:24:01.000 --> 00:24:02.460
And so I went to football.

00:24:02.460 --> 00:24:04.380
I'd never played.

00:24:04.380 --> 00:24:06.059
And so that was healthy for me.

00:24:06.059 --> 00:24:16.339
But you go from being a D1 athlete, the star of your conference, to sitting on the bench as an athletic trainer in a D1 dugout.

00:24:16.339 --> 00:24:20.579
And in retrospect, as I reflect on that, that maybe wasn't so great.

00:24:20.579 --> 00:24:25.940
And you put on appearances of happiness and of well-adjustment.

00:24:25.940 --> 00:24:54.000
But I think in retrospect, there were some red flags that I missed. Talk me through those two years in Lubbock and maybe what you were dealing with that no one knew or maybe what I or someone else could have done that would have helped. Yeah reflecting back on it, I don't know, it was hard for me to work with softball no doubt but because I just wanted to go out there and pitch or play or even just practice or bring my glove and throw around with them.

00:24:54.000 --> 00:25:03.720
But I think there was, that was my second year, so I think there became a little bit of maturity that second year and realizing, okay, this is their time, this is for them.

00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:10.079
I get to still be a part of it, but I am not the athlete anymore, which is devastating.

00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:43.599
It still is devastating. But that is why I went into athletic training because I'm the same way. I love being around the team. I love the atmosphere, the environment that you get with a team that you really don't get, I don't think anywhere in life. It was hard to be back with softball, yes, but I think it was worth it. And I think it was not a mistake, or I appreciate you putting me with them.

00:25:43.599 --> 00:25:46.119
But it was also a growing and reflection part.

00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:48.839
Okay, this is not you anymore, this is not the athlete.

00:25:48.839 --> 00:25:52.720
You are progressing in life, you are growing in life, and that's okay.

00:25:52.720 --> 00:25:55.400
Everyone has their time, everyone has their moment.

00:25:55.400 --> 00:25:59.420
And so it may have been more of a little bit of a growth piece for me.

00:25:59.420 --> 00:26:18.200
Of course, I did try to put on the happiness face and deep down I was still struggling with being away from softball, but I didn't think I necessarily needed to be away from it as much as I wanted to be still in the game.

00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:19.839
People always ask me, why didn't you coach?

00:26:19.839 --> 00:26:22.039
I couldn't be a coach.

00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:31.500
I like being in and around the athletes and not so much being like the dictator of the team, but just more being involved in the environment.

00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:42.799
Yeah, you graduate from the MIT after two years and I have to think that transition was much different than out of sport because out of sport, there's really no path forward.

00:26:42.799 --> 00:26:43.299
It's over.

00:26:43.299 --> 00:26:44.700
It's that chapter is closed.

00:26:44.700 --> 00:26:48.500
But as a young professional everything lays ahead.

00:26:48.500 --> 00:26:57.400
And so you've got opportunities to work, whether that's clinically or to leverage that as you've done into a related credential.

00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:04.400
What was the thought process at or following graduation? What did you want to be when you grew up at that point in your life?

00:27:04.400 --> 00:27:24.960
I still didn't really know. I don't think. I liked athletic training, but I knew it was not going to be my final stop in life. So my goal in reflecting back on the academic part was get the best grades you can because if you want to do something else, whether it be a physical therapist, that was actually that was my thought process.

00:27:24.960 --> 00:28:06.000
Maybe I'll become a physical therapist, but I really needed the grades to get into further education if that's what I wanted to do. But also in the meantime you need experience, you have to work, get your feet wet, and become a part of society. I still didn't really know where I was going and so I got a fantastic opportunity at South Plains College with Will. You just take things in stride as an athlete. You don't know if you're going to get hurt, you don't know if you're going to win the game, you don't know who your opponent is, but you're flexible and you take each day and each game as it is and just give 100%.

00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:09.000
And so that's what I did with my career.

00:28:09.000 --> 00:28:11.000
South Plains College, okay, here we go.

00:28:11.000 --> 00:28:12.000
This is where I'm going.

00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:21.000
But I do remember calling my mom and saying, I don't feel like this is where I should be at 25, and I want to be further along.

00:28:21.000 --> 00:28:27.000
I don't know what it is, and I'm frustrated still with life because I don't feel like I'm where I'm supposed to be.

00:28:27.000 --> 00:28:31.000
And that was four years after, three, four years after I was done being an athlete still.

00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:34.000
I still was like, I don't know what to do.

00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:41.000
So it was, even though I was progressing in my life, I still felt like I'm lost.

00:28:41.000 --> 00:28:45.000
Yeah. And again, it comes back to that lack of control.

00:28:45.000 --> 00:28:52.319
It's one thing to know precisely where you're supposed to be or to have a vision.

00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:54.539
Like you wanted to be a D1 athlete.

00:28:54.539 --> 00:28:56.660
That's a goal you strive for.

00:28:56.660 --> 00:29:00.259
But to be in that position, it wasn't that you knew where you wanted to be.

00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:03.380
You just felt in your soul that this wasn't it.

00:29:03.380 --> 00:29:04.579
And that's hard.

00:29:04.579 --> 00:29:08.500
That is a lonely and a frightening place to live.

00:29:08.500 --> 00:29:09.920
Yeah.

00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:14.619
It is because like I said, in softball, the love was there.

00:29:14.619 --> 00:29:38.000
You knew what you wanted to do. But then, even still, four or five years later, as an athletic trainer, I'm like, okay, there's so nothing that gives me that adrenaline. There's nothing that gives me that love, that passion. And even though I like the athletic training, it didn't give me that feeling. Honestly, Dr. Brose, I don't know if I will ever find that feeling again. But that's okay. I have to be fortunate that I had it once in life.

00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:39.000
Yeah.

00:29:39.000 --> 00:29:40.000
So.

00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:41.839
It was a storybook next move.

00:29:41.839 --> 00:29:44.440
You just magically decided you wanted to be a PA.

00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:47.119
You applied and you got straight in, right?

00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:48.119
No.

00:29:48.119 --> 00:29:49.119
No.

00:29:49.119 --> 00:29:50.119
It wasn't quite like that.

00:29:50.119 --> 00:29:52.160
So what happened next?

00:29:52.160 --> 00:30:07.759
Actually, when I was at Texas Tech, someone had taught, I don't even remember, I think it was at WebEx Sports Medicine and I saw the PAs and I was like, maybe this is what I'm supposed to do next.

00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:10.640
But holy moly, none of my prerequisites match.

00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:16.640
I have to take this GRE exam that shows nothing about who I am as a person.

00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.799
It's like the SAT on crack.

00:30:19.799 --> 00:30:24.000
And so it was a very difficult exam, and I never did well on it.

00:30:24.000 --> 00:30:27.500
But I was like, this doesn't show who I am or what I can do.

00:30:27.500 --> 00:30:33.500
And again, I'm at this roadblock, like, I want to keep going.

00:30:33.500 --> 00:30:36.000
I need to do something more in life.

00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:40.000
Athletic training is helping me, but it's not quenching my thirst.

00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:43.000
So, with PA school, you get one chance each year.

00:30:43.000 --> 00:30:45.000
You apply in April.

00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:49.500
You find out May, June, July, if you're getting interviews.

00:30:49.500 --> 00:31:42.640
And then you do your interviews and then if you don't get in then you have to wait another year. And so at that time I had moved to Dallas and I was working in a clinic as an athletic trainer which I loved. You learn more casting and then also I was doing some contract work with just like local middle schools so I was still getting field work. But it took me, the first year they always say it's a waste because you're just getting all of your information in and you get all of your recs in And it was true. I didn't get a single interview my first year And so then you just have to work on gaining more experience as an athletic trainer. They want you to volunteer 7,000 hours a week for PA school Just be this very diverse person. And so you have to really focus on becoming that person that looks good on paper, right?

00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.400
Because they don't, that's what they look at.

00:31:44.400 --> 00:31:51.019
They look at who you are on paper before they even will let you come out to talk to them, to show them who you are.

00:31:51.019 --> 00:31:57.680
In my second year, I got a couple interviews, but I was wait-listed, and then I ended up being denied.

00:31:57.680 --> 00:32:00.019
Again, each year you have to like regroup.

00:32:00.019 --> 00:32:30.000
You have to be, of course, there are plenty of times where I'm crying, this isn't gonna work out, what do I do with my life? And so I just, I relate it back to being an athlete, you have to be resilient, you have to keep going. I had to take organic chemistry, which I was horrible at, because really you also have to stay within five years with these pre-rec might expire.

00:32:30.000 --> 00:32:33.160
So you really have to stay up to date on all this stuff.

00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:34.160
So I was taking classes.

00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:39.519
I would go to work and go to a night class, go home.

00:32:39.519 --> 00:32:43.079
But it just goes back to being flexible and being resilient.

00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:44.079
Yeah.

00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:46.839
There's a quote, and I lost it.

00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:48.839
I used to have it handwritten in my notebook.

00:32:48.839 --> 00:33:15.119
It was from undergrad. I stumbled across it like in a Sports Illustrated, but it goes something like this. There's a fine line between an iron-willed persistence and a complete lack of self-awareness. I can watch all the David Goggins videos I want and believe in myself that I could be an NBA player with iron-willed persistence, but that shows a complete lack of self-awareness. I don't have what it takes to be an NBA basketball player.

00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:19.039
At some point you have to think, try one, you knew to write that off.

00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:20.799
Try two, that's disappointing.

00:33:20.799 --> 00:33:23.539
Try three, is this in the cards for me?

00:33:23.539 --> 00:33:29.180
What did you tell yourself to keep going, to rally the energy for one more push?

00:33:29.180 --> 00:33:32.839
Because I remember that season you would contact me and say, hey, could you write a letter?

00:33:32.839 --> 00:33:40.880
And my heart broke for you because I knew exactly the person you were, the student.

00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:44.000
You were so well suited for that role.

00:33:44.000 --> 00:33:50.000
And I just felt like you weren't making it through the screening process for people to get to know who you were.

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:50.500
Yeah.

00:33:50.500 --> 00:33:54.000
So what did you tell yourself to keep going to pursue that dream?

00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:59.000
Honestly, Dr. Brooks, I think deep down I knew I would get there.

00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:00.839
I knew I would get there.

00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:08.699
I just, cause I had no, really it was, it's this, or I don't know what I'm going to do, honestly.

00:34:08.699 --> 00:34:12.039
And at that time, that was the only option I had.

00:34:12.039 --> 00:34:14.420
And I just told myself, I know I can get there.

00:34:14.420 --> 00:34:16.099
I know I can do it.

00:34:16.099 --> 00:34:17.619
I have to keep trying.

00:34:17.619 --> 00:34:18.500
It will break through.

00:34:18.500 --> 00:34:19.559
I will get that chance.

00:34:19.559 --> 00:34:21.159
I'm getting closer.

00:34:21.159 --> 00:34:22.400
First year, I didn't get anything.

00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:24.079
Second year, I got interviews.

00:34:24.079 --> 00:34:39.579
Third year, yes, I'm gonna get interviews and I know I'm gonna get there and But it was really hard. It is really hard to stay focused and not just It's not that I never had breakdowns. I had plenty of breakdowns. What am I gonna do with my life?

00:34:39.579 --> 00:35:32.559
but I Knew deep down that it was gonna work out. I don't know how looking back, but I just kept going and I got interviews and I actually told myself if I don't get in I'm moving back to Colorado because I don't want to be in Texas anymore. I'll figure something out, but Colorado Mesa was their first year as a PA program and all of my requisites matched and so I was like okay this is I had a gut feeling that I really need to put all my eggs in this basket because I think this is where it's at. And I got an interview from them and you can just tell all my other previous interviews you're like it went okay I don't know if I got it. But the Colorado Mesa one I was like I nailed it.

00:35:32.559 --> 00:36:28.239
You're just so confident. That day I woke up and you're just confident. It's just a different day. I guess maybe relating it back to a game, you're so confident. And so I really did do well on my interview and I left there and I'm like, if I don't get in there, I don't know what they're asking for. Which may sound very confident, but, and so I had a couple other interviews that year, but they did not feel as good as Colorado Mesa. And so I was wait-listed with another school in North Carolina and then I finally got the acceptance call from Colorado Mesa and it was just like this overwhelming emotion. It's actually happening, it finally worked. But then also So, the other side of, oh my gosh, is this the right thing?

00:36:28.239 --> 00:36:29.239
This is so much money.

00:36:29.239 --> 00:36:30.239
PA school is not cheap.

00:36:30.239 --> 00:36:31.239
Am I doing the right thing?

00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:36.360
So, I just got in and I'm super excited, but then I also have this overwhelming emotion of, is this the right thing?

00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:37.360
Right.

00:36:37.360 --> 00:36:44.639
One of my all-time favorite movies is Rudy, and he moves to South Bend and he starts off in a community college.

00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:49.280
He's not actually admitted to Notre Dame, and he applies and he applies.

00:36:49.280 --> 00:37:01.280
And it's like my most favorite scene in the entire movie where not a word is said, but he opens the letter and if he doesn't get in, they don't accept senior transfers.

00:37:01.280 --> 00:37:03.280
He knows if I don't get in now, I'm not getting in.

00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:07.280
And he opens it, and you just see him break down into tears.

00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:10.280
And as the viewer, the first time you're like, what's it say?

00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:13.280
Did you get in or did you not?

00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:16.280
And we know the story where he got in.

00:37:16.280 --> 00:37:19.840
And so that flood of emotions, that's human nature.

00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:21.880
And you touched on it already.

00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:32.880
At that point, like financial concerns aside, was that the confirmation affirmation you needed that this was your path, this was your purpose in life?

00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:33.280
Yeah.

00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:47.880
Yeah, because I knew it was the next best step for me in my life and that confirmation was, it was like, yes, this is where you are supposed to go.

00:37:47.880 --> 00:37:58.599
So that confirmation definitely changed my life and my outlook on becoming a PA and that I wasn't necessarily stuck anymore.

00:37:58.599 --> 00:38:01.079
Like I said, I love athletic training, but I almost felt stuck.

00:38:01.079 --> 00:38:05.679
Like I could, there was not growth for me and where I was.

00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:07.619
And that's a control thing too.

00:38:07.619 --> 00:38:08.579
I need to grow.

00:38:08.579 --> 00:38:09.480
I need to practice.

00:38:09.480 --> 00:38:10.860
I need to get better at something.

00:38:10.860 --> 00:38:11.639
I need more.

00:38:11.639 --> 00:38:14.219
Becoming a PA, I was like, I can practice at that.

00:38:14.219 --> 00:38:15.199
I can become better.

00:38:15.199 --> 00:38:16.539
I can help people more.

00:38:16.539 --> 00:38:26.679
And I can, yes, getting that confirmation, I guess maybe it was more of a control piece, like I finally made it.

00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:28.840
But the hard work was not done at that point.

00:38:28.840 --> 00:38:35.599
Well, that's where I was going next, is getting in is a milestone, but it's by no means the finish line.

00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:38.000
It is, you're in the starting blocks now.

00:38:38.000 --> 00:38:41.960
So what is the next few years like for Kelly?

00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:46.079
I think I probably couldn't have done it as well as in PA school if I didn't go to Texas Tech.

00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:47.039
I'll tell you that.

00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:53.000
My anatomy class at Texas Tech was better than at Colorado Mesa.

00:38:53.000 --> 00:38:54.000
It was a new program.

00:38:54.000 --> 00:39:07.000
They didn't have the funds really to get cadavers, so I was very lucky to have that class at Texas Tech, and it really did, I think, propel me into some of the success I had in PA school.

00:39:07.000 --> 00:39:15.000
But I took 120 credits in 27 months, and they're not easy classes because PA school is more general-focused.

00:39:15.000 --> 00:39:16.280
It's not orthopedics.

00:39:16.280 --> 00:39:21.960
And I remember in the first couple of months, I was like, wow, I know nothing about medicine.

00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:29.239
I know my little on the board's exam for PA school, orthopedics is 5%, but it's tiny.

00:39:29.239 --> 00:39:31.039
And so I was like, I know nothing.

00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:39.440
And again, that's where you have to break yourself down, reset your goals, figure out what's the most important thing right now.

00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:41.840
You can't have a job, all you do is study.

00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:49.340
You go to class all day, every day, and yeah, those classes are very difficult, but it's so worth it.

00:39:49.340 --> 00:39:52.659
I had great teachers there too, I had great classmates.

00:39:52.659 --> 00:39:57.800
I was very fortunate to be a part of a cohort class and start something new.

00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:00.480
So by no means it was not easy, but again, it was worth it and I should practice at it.

00:40:00.480 --> 00:40:03.760
I knew if I read more, studied more, it would pay off.

00:40:03.760 --> 00:40:08.000
And that goes back to more pitching, more batting.

00:40:08.000 --> 00:40:12.559
You work at something and you progress, that's validity in itself.

00:40:12.559 --> 00:40:13.440
And that's what I needed.

00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:51.320
Pitchers, you have an approach for every hitter and you hit your spots and I love the corollary the mental connections for pitchers that's life like you control what you can and you have to shake off what you can't maybe somebody got the best of you that at bat shake that off because if you let that linger they've already got the advantage the next time they see you yeah what do your days look like today I passed my boards.

00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:58.840
That's a whole nother journey itself when you leave PA school because when you apply everywhere they want you to have experience.

00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:01.360
I don't have any experience.

00:41:01.360 --> 00:41:10.119
And so my first job, I'm still in my first job, my doc, I'm in Pueblo, I'm at Parkview Orthopedics, which is where I wanted to be.

00:41:10.119 --> 00:41:11.760
I still get to work with athletes.

00:41:11.760 --> 00:41:16.559
My doc is the team physician for the D2 college that we have here in town.

00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:18.519
So we still see all the athletes.

00:41:18.519 --> 00:41:22.440
I still get to incorporate that into my life, which is what I wanted.

00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:26.039
In PA school, people would always ask, what field of medicine do you want to go to?

00:41:26.039 --> 00:41:29.960
And I'd say 90% of my classmates, I don't know yet.

00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:34.559
My answer was always orthopedics, just because I still loved the sports aspect.

00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:42.039
And when I got out of school, my doc, God bless her, she gave me the opportunity because she had worked with athletic trainers.

00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:43.760
That's really what it was.

00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:51.519
She worked with all the athletic trainers at the college and she knew my experience that I would bring to the table as an athletic trainer, as an athlete.

00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:54.840
She was a D1 soccer athlete at University of New Mexico.

00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:59.960
She saw that in me very early and I cannot thank her enough for giving me the opportunity.

00:41:59.960 --> 00:42:03.280
She's an amazing doctor, an amazing person.

00:42:03.280 --> 00:42:10.559
And my day is, we have clinic three days a week and we're in surgery two or three days a week, depending on the week.

00:42:10.559 --> 00:42:14.599
And medicine is tough, medicine is hard.

00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:19.599
You work with some really great people, but taking care of people is hard.

00:42:19.599 --> 00:42:28.159
I am very introverted and every day I have to be an extrovert just to put on a show for patients and be there for them and really listen to their needs and medicine is hard.

00:42:28.159 --> 00:42:28.800
It really is.

00:42:28.800 --> 00:42:30.559
But it's just not orthopedics.

00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:32.800
It's people are sick.

00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:33.539
And so.

00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:35.099
You're not treating sprained ankles.

00:42:35.099 --> 00:42:38.019
You're treating patients with sprained ankles and that's different.

00:42:38.019 --> 00:42:38.519
It is.

00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:42.199
I remember when I, when you first are out, you're like, Oh my gosh, this is all on me.

00:42:42.199 --> 00:43:01.519
I have to, you have to know other medicines, what interacts with what and what they can and can't take. Do they have diabetes? But again, that with practice, you can get better at it. And that's why it's fulfilling for me.

00:43:01.519 --> 00:43:10.639
Yeah. Ironic. I'm just thinking of it now that you're practicing medicine and practices exactly what you've relied on your whole life to get better. So, yeah.

00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:14.079
What advice would you give your younger self?

00:43:14.079 --> 00:43:20.960
This has been not always a smooth path and not always an easy journey.

00:43:20.960 --> 00:43:26.320
If you could go back in time and speak some life or encouragement into young Kelly, what would you tell her?

00:43:26.320 --> 00:44:03.440
It's not going to be easy, but what you learn as a young woman will make you into who you are later in life. So just stay strong, stay with it. If you keep practicing and you work hard towards something, you can get it. It may not be the path that you think it is, it's not going to be straight across, there's a lot of up and downs, there's a lot of mental breakdowns, but you know who you are and you just have to keep going at the end of the day.

00:44:03.440 --> 00:44:06.519
It's a hard battle, but nobody's battle is easy.

00:44:06.519 --> 00:44:07.519
Just keep going.

00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:08.519
Just be resilient.

00:44:08.519 --> 00:44:09.519
You have to be resilient.

00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:11.860
I'm now closing in on 70 episodes.

00:44:11.860 --> 00:44:18.119
So this is like a huge qualitative research project for me if I'm really nerdily honest about it.

00:44:18.119 --> 00:44:29.000
And probably the most encouraging thing is that people I all admire, I admire what you've done and I admire what so many of my guests have accomplished.

00:44:29.000 --> 00:44:35.000
And I think for so many of us, we just assume that if someone did it, it came easy for them.

00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:41.000
I'm defective. I'm deficient. I am lacking. I'm not like them.

00:44:41.000 --> 00:45:17.760
And to hear high achievers talk about how they thought the same thing, we normalize the fact that everybody struggles with doubt. Everybody struggles with Uncertainty and there may be moments where you feel invincible like you might have had a few innings where you stepped in that circle knowing darn Good and well, you were gonna dominate. Yeah, but we spent a lot of other innings in our life Hoping we can get through this inning To the next and it's in those seasons of doubt if we can be resilient and push through, that makes us human.

00:45:17.760 --> 00:45:22.000
And there's strength in knowing that I'm not alone in those doubts.

00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:22.380
Yeah.

00:45:22.380 --> 00:45:26.159
I remember someone telling me as a batter in softball, you are always failing.

00:45:26.159 --> 00:45:39.599
If you're batting 300, you are three out of 10 that is failing, but that's a good average in 333, 400, you're doing well.

00:45:39.599 --> 00:45:42.260
So it's all about perspective too.

00:45:42.260 --> 00:45:50.980
Like you said, there are many times of doubt, but you, you do have to keep going and just be resilient.

00:45:50.980 --> 00:45:51.980
Yeah, for sure.

00:45:51.980 --> 00:45:52.320
All right.

00:45:52.320 --> 00:45:53.659
So we're closing in here.

00:45:53.659 --> 00:45:57.679
I love music and the emotions that it can oftentimes convey.

00:45:57.679 --> 00:46:02.019
My daughter's made me a reluctant adopter of musical theater.

00:46:02.019 --> 00:46:16.019
And she said that people don't spontaneously break into song and dance, but the point of the songs and musicals is that they're allowing someone to share their emotions with you in a way that spoken words can't.

00:46:16.019 --> 00:46:18.019
And I thought, that's cool. That's pretty powerful.

00:46:18.019 --> 00:46:31.219
So a question I ask of every guest is if you could watch a montage of your life. What song would you choose to play in the background and why?

00:46:31.219 --> 00:47:17.159
I Probably will always relate it to one of my walk-up songs in softball and that's just the sandstorm song there's not many words to it, it's just like a High beat energy and I still listen to it when I work out just because It just drives you it's just a high intensity you just Every time I work out and I listen to it I can work out harder and so I think I'll probably relate it back to that just because it was my walk-up song for two years and I still listen to it and Like that even though there's no words. It's just that upbeat song that keeps you going It's also fitting you spent two years in Lubbock. We have our share of sandstorms You didn't think of that connection.

00:47:17.159 --> 00:47:24.360
What for Kelly Chapman remains undone?

00:47:24.360 --> 00:47:25.360
I don't know.

00:47:25.360 --> 00:47:26.360
It sounds crazy.

00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:34.800
I have had a lot of success in my life and I love being an orthopedic PA, but I still feel like there's something that's missing in my life.

00:47:34.800 --> 00:47:36.559
I don't know what it is.

00:47:36.559 --> 00:48:05.000
There's still something that I Haven't attained yet. And again, I don't know what that is but And it may take me to get to where I am right now I looked back and probably took me about 10 years to get from High elite level softball athlete to orthopedic PA took me about 10 years. So if it takes me another 10 years That's fine if it takes me 20, but I still feel like there's something deep down inside of me that's been unattained.

00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:07.719
I don't know what it is, but I will find it.

00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:09.320
I can certainly relate to that.

00:48:09.320 --> 00:48:19.800
I think growth-minded folks have this need to continue to actualize, to continue to grow, to morph into Taylor Swift talks about her eras.

00:48:19.800 --> 00:48:28.400
I don't know what your next era is, but we'll wait with anticipation to see what that is. How can listeners connect with you and follow what you do?

00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:30.559
I have an Instagram, but I'm not very active on it.

00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:33.199
But you can always follow Parkview Orthopedics.

00:48:33.199 --> 00:48:38.000
Sounds like the beginnings of a fantastic women's athlete clinic outreach.

00:48:38.000 --> 00:48:38.800
Well, you know, my doctor...

00:48:38.800 --> 00:48:40.239
B1 athletes all over.

00:48:40.239 --> 00:48:54.480
Yeah, my doctor and I were just talking in the OR the other day, she thought it would be cool to start her own podcast because I was telling her I was doing this one.

00:48:54.480 --> 00:48:59.920
And she was like, I'd love to interview some of the CSU Pueblo athletes and maybe even some of my patients.

00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:03.960
And we are an all-female orthopedic team.

00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:07.880
And so she had brought that up, the female podcast.

00:49:07.880 --> 00:49:08.880
So who knows?

00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:09.880
Yeah, there you go.

00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:11.639
Hook her up, let her know.

00:49:11.639 --> 00:49:14.159
It sounds like she would make for another good episode.

00:49:14.159 --> 00:49:16.440
I'd love to team you all together.

00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:17.119
Yeah, she's great.

00:49:17.119 --> 00:49:17.800
Very cool.

00:49:17.800 --> 00:49:19.599
Kelly, thank you so much for joining me.

00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:25.119
I apologize for the scheduling issues we had, but this was well worth the wait.

00:49:25.119 --> 00:49:26.480
I certainly appreciate your time.

00:49:26.480 --> 00:49:28.920
Well, I appreciate you and all that you do.

00:49:28.920 --> 00:49:31.880
And I'm eager to listen to all your future episodes.

00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:45.800
My name's Kelly Chapman and I'm orthopedic surgery physician assistant, and I am undone.

00:49:45.800 --> 00:50:31.300
Kelly. It hasn't come easily, but she never asked for it to from her days as an all state selection in high school to her crowning athletic achievement, at least so far to being unanimous pick as the D one Pacific Coast Softball Conference Mountain Division player of the Year in 2011 as a softball player. All the way to graduate studies and experiences is both an athletic trainer and a a physician assistant, she's never been willing or interested in taking shortcuts.

00:50:31.300 --> 00:50:35.900
Just like her playing days taught her, one setback doesn't have to mean the end.

00:50:35.900 --> 00:50:41.980
Many times, it was the lessons learned in those temporary setbacks that paved the way for a thrilling victory later.

00:50:41.980 --> 00:50:55.420
I'm thankful to Kelly for dropping in today, and I hope you found just as much encouragement and inspiration from her story as I did.

00:50:53.440 --> 00:51:04.300
in the top menu and drop me a note. Coming up, I'm working hard to close out the year For more info on today's episode, be sure to check it out on the web.

00:50:57.719 --> 00:51:12.480
and hit my goal of 75 episodes and 5,000 organic downloads in year one. So I've still got some work to do, but I've lined up some fantastic guests to try and help me hit the mark. First, I've got former Wall Street Journal journalist and now author and historian John Miller.

00:51:12.480 --> 00:52:03.079
I'll also have physical therapy educator and entrepreneur F Scott feel as well as the founder of digital marketer entrepreneur mark degrasse So stay tuned this and more on becoming undone becoming undone is a nitro hype creative production written and produced by me Toby Brooks If you or someone, you know has a story of resilience and victory to share for becoming undone Contact me at undone podcast calm follow the show on Facebook Instagram and LinkedIn at becoming a nun pod and follow me at Toby J Brooks on Twitter X Instagram and tick-tock listen subscribe and leave me a review at Apple podcasts Spotify iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts until next time everybody keep getting better Toby Brooks speaker coffer and professor you