How the UK Metamaterials Network supports scientific and commercial innovation

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Weekly

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podcast.

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This episode explores the science and commercial

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applications

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of metamaterials.

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These are artificial materials that can be engineered

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to have useful properties.

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Properties that are sometimes

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not available

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in nature.

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Our guests today are Alastair Hibbins

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at the University of Exeter

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and Claire Danzer at the University of Warwick.

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And they both lead the UK

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metamaterials

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network.

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Here they are in conversation

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with Physics World's Matin Durrani.

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This week on the Physics World weekly podcast,

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we're joined by Alastair Hibbins from the University

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of Exeter and Claire Danseur from the University

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of Warwick, who are 2 joint leads of

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the UK

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Metamaterials

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Network.

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So these are artificial three d structures made

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up of repeated units,

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that can give you all sorts of properties

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you wouldn't get with normal materials.

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And, Alastair and Claire are are going to

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try to help realize the potential of these

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materials. So welcome to both of you to

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the podcast.

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Hello. Thank you. Hello.

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So let's start with the basics. So, metamaterials.

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So I kind of gave a bit of

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an explanation about what they are. And,

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Alastair, do you want to remind listeners about

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what's what exactly

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are metamaterials? I'm sure you can do a

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better job than than me in that very

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short, attempt.

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Yeah. So if you if you want to

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describe what a metamaterial is in really just

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one sentence, it's it's adding functionality

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through structure.

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And this is definitely not a brand new

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concept.

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We've we've we're benefiting nowadays from a lot

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of the advances in the physics and the

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manufacturing behind it. But metamaterials have you know,

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the Romans were were looking into metamaterials

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with the and the Egyptians with the the

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stained glass windows that we we see in

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our famous cathedrals.

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In such material,

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what you've got is essentially,

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plasmonic, what we call plasmonic nanoparticles,

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metal nanoparticles

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embedded in the glass.

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And,

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the property we see, the color,

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comes down to the size and the shape

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of those particles. And that really describes what

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a met material is in quite a concise

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way. It's dependent, the properties we see or

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hear,

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And and this all came to it's all

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reignited,

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just before the turn of the century. So

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in the late nineties,

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professor Sir John Pendry,

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who's

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an IOP honorary fellow as well,

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He he kind of recrystallized

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this this idea.

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He was looking at, artificial materials such as

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metallic meshes,

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and those meshes had properties which were really

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different from the the metal that they were

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actually naturally comprised of. I know John Pendry

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has always been on our short list of

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potential people who might win the Nobel Prize.

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He's not been lucky yet. But,

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Claire, from an applications point of view, why

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are they so exciting? Why are missed materials

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so exciting?

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I think metamaterials

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give us an opportunity really to take

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materials and material science, that's my background,

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and materials can do lots of really fantastic

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things, and take out some of the compromises

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that we have to make in order to

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be able to use them. A material has

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a given set of properties.

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Metamaterials and metamaterial structuring give us an opportunity

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to add a new functionality on top of

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that amazing advanced materials properties that we already

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have. So you might get a completely new

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function

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like coking or these sort of properties that

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are really, really useful for metamaterial

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perspectives.

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Or you might get a function without having

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a really

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heavy,

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constrained, really dense,

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property of the material that goes with it.

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So

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it really gives us those materials without compromising

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on what they need to be able to

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do.

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The applications

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that we see in in in the network

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and in the research that's being done by

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members of the network,

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a really, really wide range in, and that's

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a really exciting thing.

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We define metamaterials

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in the metamaterials network very broadly,

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much more broadly than it's been defined before.

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We think about how we can unite and

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align research that's being done on similar types

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of structures,

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whether they're at really large length scales or

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really fine length scales. So on the one

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hand, we might have a mechanical metamaterial that's

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a structural

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device that's designed to have really unusual mechanical

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properties, like bending and flexing in a way

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that its

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it bulk constituent materials wouldn't do, or an

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auxetic material that's made out of honeycomb structures.

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And that might be on a really large

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scale. It might be a bridge kind of

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scale.

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And we go right through to those nanoscale

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photonic metamaterials, which are so interesting,

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interact with light in really, really unusual ways,

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depending on how we've done that really fine

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nanostructure.

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So that leads to all sorts of applications

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in the end. So we have everything from

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really exciting innovations in body armor and in

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protective

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equipment for sports. So if we have auxetic

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helmets and protective

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devices for contact sports like rugby, that would

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be really exciting to have that custom fit

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and that customizability,

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for the person who's going through that.

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In communications, we can start to use our

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electromagnetic space much more efficiently.

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And we've got a lot of demand for

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communication channels. We need to make sure we're

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using the frequencies in a discreet and distinct

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way.

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We can have,

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in optical range, we can have artificial color.

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Very interesting. Our work being done on coloring

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materials to make different kinds of of glitter

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and decorative subject the substances.

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And in acoustics, there's loads of applications.

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We're all plagued a little bit by road

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noise and that sort of incidental noise that

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fills our world. And metafotils can go a

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long way to absorb some of that acoustic

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noise and really give us, some interesting,

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new approaches to do that without using really

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thick heavy materials that could have really bad,

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benefit, disadvantages

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in other ways. But lots and lots of

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applications are really broad spread

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of things that people are tackling.

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And, Claire, my ears pricked up when you

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mentioned cloaking. That's always the thing people associate

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with metamaterials. But, Alastair, I mean, have there

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been

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concrete

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commercial applications that have, you know, on the

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market yet of metamaterials?

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Yes. Yes. There have been.

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One example is,

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an IOP Business Innovation Award winner, actually, called

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Sonnebex.

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So as Claire was just saying,

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they won the prize,

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you know, 6 years ago now. The metamaterials

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which can be put up, against the side

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of roads to reduce road noise,

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and there are other examples I know they

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talk a lot about is putting it outside

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transform power transformers as well to to to

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to obviously reduce the amount of,

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that annoying buzz you get from them. But

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they're not the the only ones. In fact,

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there is some, you know, some news relatively

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hot off the press, which is

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about Metasonics

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that they produce high quality soundproof panels, again,

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managing noise.

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These actually

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allow ventilator crucially actually for their applications because

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they're using them for in the built environment

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for blinds. They manage noise, but also enable

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ventilation at the same time.

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And, they've won the one of the 2024

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IOP Business Awards as well, which is really,

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really pleasing to hear.

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You know, I I was just reading that

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their their their structure,

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blocks noise like, a 60 millimeter piece of

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wood does, but it's only a third of

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the weight and only 25 millimeters thick. So

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that's what that's really, really impressive.

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We're also seeing metamaterials talked about by companies

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such as high high audio quality products from

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KEF, k e f. They use a metamaterial

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kind of labyrinth structure as part of the

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baffle behind the main loudspeaker

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in in their high end devices.

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There's a very nice animation of metamaterials on

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on their website,

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that obviously listeners might want to go and

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have a look at if they want to

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see a metamaterial in action.

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And recently, there's,

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a company, a spin out,

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called Meta Helios,

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and then what what they're doing is innovating,

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on chip pixelated cameras, which are hyperspectral,

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so they they're they're multi wavelength,

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and they're also polarization

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sensitive as well. And that's for the space

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sector and also for the defense sector as

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well.

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I guess perhaps the most famous one, unfortunately,

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not necessarily a UK intervention, is Meta Lens.

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So these are flat,

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conformal lenses, which are incredibly useful,

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in our mobile phone technologies because they enable

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an amazing optical performance in a very compact

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device. And

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they are now you'll find them in Apple

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Phones and in Samsung Phones, and they're coming

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to Google Phone, Android Phones as well,

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particularly using biometric ideas as well and involved

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in the kind of the face ID technologies.

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I think, you know, I touched on there

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that, you know, not all of these companies,

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of course, are coming from the UK, and

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it's it's it's

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it's interesting to hear how well the US

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is doing compared to us.

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There are companies such as Kymeta,

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Lumotive, EchoDyne, and Pivotal Comware,

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in the in the US who've received huge

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amount of startup funding and venture funding,

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and and are now doing really well. So

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it does show what metamaterials

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can offer in terms of, making money and

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selling products. Clameta, for example, making metamaterial based

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antennas and Lumotive

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involved in solid state,

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lidar systems. So these are the lidar systems

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you use in autonomous vehicles and drones and

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so on,

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for ranging, applications.

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So quite a really wide ranging and impressive,

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number of applications.

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And which kind of brings me on to

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the metamaterials network, which, Claire, I think we've

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it's been set up deliberately to sort of

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help encourage this kind of commercialization. So what

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00:10:36,054 --> 00:10:37,355
what are the aims of

276
00:10:37,735 --> 00:10:39,029
the metamaterials network?

277
00:10:40,310 --> 00:10:42,389
Yeah. So it's it's certainly one of our

278
00:10:42,389 --> 00:10:44,389
aims and really important one to make sure

279
00:10:44,389 --> 00:10:45,190
that we we,

280
00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:48,310
capitalise on all the work that's being done

281
00:10:48,310 --> 00:10:49,610
in the UK on metamaterials.

282
00:10:50,710 --> 00:10:53,269
The metamaterials network at the moment is a

283
00:10:53,269 --> 00:10:56,375
EPSRC network plus. But we had an original

284
00:10:56,375 --> 00:10:58,375
award in 2021, so we have been going

285
00:10:58,375 --> 00:10:59,595
for a little while now,

286
00:11:00,134 --> 00:11:01,975
as a network. You know, we were funded

287
00:11:01,975 --> 00:11:02,714
by UKRI

288
00:11:03,414 --> 00:11:04,315
and DSTL.

289
00:11:05,254 --> 00:11:08,154
And since those early days, through

290
00:11:08,534 --> 00:11:11,519
lots of talking, lots of communication between different

291
00:11:11,519 --> 00:11:13,759
people from different areas, we've now grown to

292
00:11:13,759 --> 00:11:15,779
a community of about 900 numbers,

293
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:19,040
which is made up of people from across

294
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,379
the UK and some from abroad, largely dominated

295
00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:22,580
by UK academics,

296
00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,460
some industry, and some overseas academics.

297
00:11:26,024 --> 00:11:28,904
And we're really set up to be as

298
00:11:28,904 --> 00:11:30,664
as broad as possible in our approach to

299
00:11:30,664 --> 00:11:31,164
metamaterials.

300
00:11:31,784 --> 00:11:34,345
But to provide that one coherent single source

301
00:11:34,345 --> 00:11:36,024
of access to the community. We try and

302
00:11:36,024 --> 00:11:37,324
represent the whole community.

303
00:11:37,625 --> 00:11:39,225
So that we've got that one call in

304
00:11:39,225 --> 00:11:41,779
place to to come to, to help to

305
00:11:41,779 --> 00:11:42,279
generate,

306
00:11:43,699 --> 00:11:46,100
support for the current generation of academics, the

307
00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:47,860
next generation of academics. We want to see

308
00:11:47,860 --> 00:11:49,539
more people coming through into this field and

309
00:11:49,539 --> 00:11:51,159
seeing it as a good place to work.

310
00:11:51,220 --> 00:11:54,199
And also to support that start for commercialization,

311
00:11:55,455 --> 00:11:58,254
startups, the industry getting engaged, and government giving

312
00:11:58,254 --> 00:12:00,014
us the support to to help us do

313
00:12:00,014 --> 00:12:02,195
that beyond our sort of traditional boundaries.

314
00:12:03,055 --> 00:12:05,134
So the way the network works is we've

315
00:12:05,134 --> 00:12:07,774
got our application areas that we already sort

316
00:12:07,774 --> 00:12:08,894
of talked about. We've got,

317
00:12:09,860 --> 00:12:13,160
groups who focus on acoustic metamaterials, microwave metamaterials,

318
00:12:13,300 --> 00:12:14,519
photonic breath materials.

319
00:12:15,620 --> 00:12:18,100
But we've also organised ourselves around 4 key

320
00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:19,000
challenge areas.

321
00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:21,940
And these challenge areas cross cut across lots

322
00:12:21,940 --> 00:12:23,960
of different areas of metamaterials research.

323
00:12:24,315 --> 00:12:25,535
And they're in manufacturing,

324
00:12:25,915 --> 00:12:28,014
which is one I'm particularly interested in,

325
00:12:28,394 --> 00:12:29,294
space and aviation,

326
00:12:29,674 --> 00:12:30,654
health and sustainability.

327
00:12:31,674 --> 00:12:33,514
One of our really core aims of the

328
00:12:33,514 --> 00:12:36,154
meta tools network plus years that we've just

329
00:12:36,154 --> 00:12:36,654
started

330
00:12:37,009 --> 00:12:39,089
is to try and develop more research programs

331
00:12:39,089 --> 00:12:41,570
in these areas so that we're making sure

332
00:12:41,570 --> 00:12:42,230
that metamaterials

333
00:12:42,610 --> 00:12:45,350
is giving that positive contribution to

334
00:12:45,889 --> 00:12:49,110
challengers, which really hit on lots of important

335
00:12:49,250 --> 00:12:51,654
national and global priorities, you know. If we're

336
00:12:51,654 --> 00:12:54,315
going to start making new materials, new metamaterials,

337
00:12:54,934 --> 00:12:57,095
let's make them good for sustainability. Let's make

338
00:12:57,095 --> 00:12:59,014
them great for healthcare and space and these

339
00:12:59,014 --> 00:13:01,174
really important challenges. And let's make sure we

340
00:13:01,174 --> 00:13:03,274
can actually make them. We've got the manufacturing

341
00:13:03,919 --> 00:13:06,559
capability and techniques to be able to do

342
00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:07,059
that.

343
00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:07,940
So

344
00:13:08,319 --> 00:13:10,799
that's a really large way in which we

345
00:13:10,799 --> 00:13:11,299
work.

346
00:13:11,919 --> 00:13:13,839
We use that group of people to try

347
00:13:13,839 --> 00:13:14,500
and tackle,

348
00:13:15,199 --> 00:13:16,019
that representation

349
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,179
to the people who make the decisions,

350
00:13:18,754 --> 00:13:21,315
to promote the research and development that we're

351
00:13:21,315 --> 00:13:23,475
doing in the UK in meta materials. And

352
00:13:23,475 --> 00:13:25,975
meta as we've already mentioned, meta tools

353
00:13:26,355 --> 00:13:28,274
is really what came from the UK. It

354
00:13:28,274 --> 00:13:29,715
came from a lot of work of John

355
00:13:29,715 --> 00:13:31,654
Pendry, and we should we should take advantage

356
00:13:31,794 --> 00:13:32,375
of that.

357
00:13:33,660 --> 00:13:35,679
We also, as a network plus,

358
00:13:35,980 --> 00:13:37,660
are lucky enough to have some funding that

359
00:13:37,660 --> 00:13:39,920
we can distribute. So we now have pipeline

360
00:13:39,980 --> 00:13:42,700
funding. We've just opened our 1st round, which

361
00:13:42,700 --> 00:13:44,879
we can use to help explore

362
00:13:45,215 --> 00:13:48,014
a pilot or exploratory project or something that's

363
00:13:48,014 --> 00:13:50,674
really pushing the research to a better outcome,

364
00:13:52,014 --> 00:13:54,335
that can help develop new areas for the

365
00:13:54,335 --> 00:13:54,835
UK,

366
00:13:55,535 --> 00:13:58,014
new activities that are strategically important, and start

367
00:13:58,014 --> 00:14:00,089
to build some of those larger bids. That

368
00:14:00,089 --> 00:14:02,089
really helps us be able to shape the

369
00:14:02,089 --> 00:14:03,789
field, shape that research landscape,

370
00:14:04,329 --> 00:14:07,049
and help make those arguments for developing things

371
00:14:07,049 --> 00:14:10,569
like metrosil's infrastructure, large scale manufacturing, and large

372
00:14:10,569 --> 00:14:12,190
scale facilities for testing.

373
00:14:12,825 --> 00:14:14,425
So we also have a bit of a

374
00:14:14,425 --> 00:14:16,745
remit to look at talent and skills. Like

375
00:14:16,745 --> 00:14:18,585
I already said, encouraging new people into the

376
00:14:18,585 --> 00:14:20,585
field, making sure we're we're drawing people into

377
00:14:20,585 --> 00:14:22,585
this area and have have interest in in

378
00:14:22,585 --> 00:14:25,165
working on this, on these, interesting materials.

379
00:14:26,289 --> 00:14:26,789
And

380
00:14:27,649 --> 00:14:29,269
increasingly, as we move towards commercialization,

381
00:14:30,769 --> 00:14:31,269
to

382
00:14:31,970 --> 00:14:34,389
develop ways that we can standardize and regulate

383
00:14:34,610 --> 00:14:36,449
mass materials. Yeah. We already talked about the

384
00:14:36,449 --> 00:14:38,370
definition of mass materials that we think should

385
00:14:38,370 --> 00:14:39,345
be fairly broad.

386
00:14:39,824 --> 00:14:41,424
It does still need to be quite precise.

387
00:14:41,424 --> 00:14:41,924
And,

388
00:14:42,784 --> 00:14:45,264
the metamaterials that we produce need to fit

389
00:14:45,264 --> 00:14:45,764
those

390
00:14:46,144 --> 00:14:48,084
standards and regulation frameworks

391
00:14:48,464 --> 00:14:49,524
in order to be supported

392
00:14:49,985 --> 00:14:51,204
and move through to market.

393
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:55,459
So we're really all about both supporting

394
00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:56,659
the fundamentals,

395
00:14:57,279 --> 00:15:00,240
supporting the discovery science, making sure that that's

396
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,320
really well represented in the UK where it

397
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:03,220
is so strong.

398
00:15:03,554 --> 00:15:05,554
But also then driving that adoption into the

399
00:15:05,554 --> 00:15:07,414
wider economy and driving the commercialization,

400
00:15:08,434 --> 00:15:09,495
as we go forward.

401
00:15:09,955 --> 00:15:10,995
And one of the one of the one

402
00:15:10,995 --> 00:15:12,514
of the really big things we've done, of

403
00:15:12,514 --> 00:15:13,575
course, is to,

404
00:15:14,034 --> 00:15:17,235
crowdsource the the metamaterial definition because it's been

405
00:15:17,235 --> 00:15:19,379
a topic of some debate over the last

406
00:15:19,460 --> 00:15:20,279
few years.

407
00:15:20,660 --> 00:15:22,660
And Claire's put a lot of effort into

408
00:15:22,660 --> 00:15:25,139
into working that with with the community. It's

409
00:15:25,139 --> 00:15:27,139
a metamaterial is a 3 d structure with

410
00:15:27,139 --> 00:15:28,519
a response or function

411
00:15:28,899 --> 00:15:31,720
due to collective effects of meta atom elements

412
00:15:32,095 --> 00:15:34,274
that is not possible to achieve conventionally

413
00:15:34,735 --> 00:15:36,995
with any individual constituent material.

414
00:15:37,615 --> 00:15:39,695
And the amount of work that went into

415
00:15:39,695 --> 00:15:41,774
defining that and talking with the community and

416
00:15:41,774 --> 00:15:43,855
lots of debate about, you know, what should

417
00:15:43,855 --> 00:15:45,154
be in, what should be out.

418
00:15:45,459 --> 00:15:46,820
But I think we've come up with a

419
00:15:46,820 --> 00:15:48,980
really nice definition there that that that that

420
00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:50,500
that will be there, is gonna be there

421
00:15:50,500 --> 00:15:51,860
for many years to come, which I think

422
00:15:51,860 --> 00:15:53,620
is one of our seems a little bit

423
00:15:53,620 --> 00:15:55,539
trivial, but it's it's one of our great

424
00:15:55,539 --> 00:15:56,039
achievements.

425
00:15:56,419 --> 00:15:58,019
It sounds like that definition will be on

426
00:15:58,019 --> 00:15:59,539
the school syllabus is one day. I can

427
00:15:59,539 --> 00:16:01,955
imagine that being exam question. But in terms

428
00:16:01,955 --> 00:16:02,615
of the commercialization,

429
00:16:02,995 --> 00:16:04,615
are there any specific challenges,

430
00:16:05,715 --> 00:16:08,455
Claire, in commercializing these materials? I can imagine,

431
00:16:09,154 --> 00:16:10,615
I can imagine there must be.

432
00:16:11,315 --> 00:16:14,049
Yep. There certainly are. I think any commercializing

433
00:16:14,350 --> 00:16:16,990
any new idea from science is is always

434
00:16:16,990 --> 00:16:17,570
a challenge.

435
00:16:18,269 --> 00:16:18,509
And,

436
00:16:19,389 --> 00:16:21,330
we're certainly no exception to that.

437
00:16:21,710 --> 00:16:24,210
I think one particular issue with met materials

438
00:16:24,429 --> 00:16:26,029
is the manufacturing of them.

439
00:16:26,669 --> 00:16:29,245
It's I could I could say that's always

440
00:16:29,245 --> 00:16:31,325
my interest. It is always my interest. But

441
00:16:31,325 --> 00:16:32,605
I think if we are going to have

442
00:16:32,605 --> 00:16:34,785
commercial products, we need to make sure we're

443
00:16:34,925 --> 00:16:37,485
making metamaterials by ways that can be made

444
00:16:37,485 --> 00:16:39,665
in industry, can be made in the suitable

445
00:16:39,725 --> 00:16:41,425
volumes, suitable batch sizes.

446
00:16:41,870 --> 00:16:43,250
An awful lot of metamaterials

447
00:16:44,110 --> 00:16:46,350
in the in the research lab are made

448
00:16:46,350 --> 00:16:46,850
by,

449
00:16:47,629 --> 00:16:50,429
3 d printing, by sticking and gluing things

450
00:16:50,429 --> 00:16:53,070
together, by manual assembly, which is great because

451
00:16:53,070 --> 00:16:55,004
it shows that the physics is there. It

452
00:16:55,085 --> 00:16:57,004
proves that we can do something really, really

453
00:16:57,004 --> 00:16:57,504
interesting.

454
00:16:57,884 --> 00:16:59,325
But that's not how you're gonna make it

455
00:16:59,325 --> 00:17:00,684
in fact, this. So we need to go

456
00:17:00,684 --> 00:17:03,325
through a stage where we take all this

457
00:17:03,325 --> 00:17:05,404
fundamental physics and we need the input from

458
00:17:05,404 --> 00:17:07,404
those physicists because we're gonna have to tweak

459
00:17:07,404 --> 00:17:08,384
the designs. And

460
00:17:08,910 --> 00:17:11,710
design for manufacturer is a very serious concern

461
00:17:11,710 --> 00:17:13,390
here. But we need to make sure the

462
00:17:13,390 --> 00:17:15,630
designs fit something you can actually make with

463
00:17:15,630 --> 00:17:16,769
a scalable technique.

464
00:17:18,109 --> 00:17:19,549
We need to go through that stage of

465
00:17:19,549 --> 00:17:22,450
building up these these new techniques for manufacturing,

466
00:17:22,750 --> 00:17:24,375
which I think is a really exciting stage

467
00:17:24,375 --> 00:17:25,815
to be at, to be fair. So, it's

468
00:17:25,815 --> 00:17:26,634
a good thing.

469
00:17:27,015 --> 00:17:28,075
So that's all about

470
00:17:28,855 --> 00:17:31,095
infrastructure and scale up. So, in order to

471
00:17:31,095 --> 00:17:32,855
realize that, we need to make sure that

472
00:17:32,855 --> 00:17:34,295
we've got funding in place to be able

473
00:17:34,295 --> 00:17:35,674
to fund those large investments.

474
00:17:36,215 --> 00:17:38,910
We need large scale infrastructure, not just lab

475
00:17:38,910 --> 00:17:41,390
scale infrastructure, to be able to realize that

476
00:17:41,390 --> 00:17:42,769
scale up, activity.

477
00:17:43,309 --> 00:17:45,630
And of course, we need, you know, talented

478
00:17:45,630 --> 00:17:47,549
skilled workers to be able to do that

479
00:17:47,549 --> 00:17:49,490
work and run those things through,

480
00:17:49,869 --> 00:17:51,285
who might well need to be

481
00:17:51,765 --> 00:17:53,924
people who are already working in manufacturing industries

482
00:17:53,924 --> 00:17:55,065
and related industries,

483
00:17:55,445 --> 00:17:57,924
and make sure we develop the talent that's

484
00:17:57,924 --> 00:18:00,025
needed to make sure that this this happens.

485
00:18:00,404 --> 00:18:02,505
I already mentioned regulation and standardization.

486
00:18:02,884 --> 00:18:04,724
It's a really important thing to make sure

487
00:18:04,724 --> 00:18:06,644
it comes through. And it's also a question

488
00:18:06,644 --> 00:18:08,179
of intellectual property.

489
00:18:08,799 --> 00:18:10,819
And how do we manage that intellectual property

490
00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,220
relationship when things have been coming through collaborative

491
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:13,940
research?

492
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:16,480
If we make too many barriers for companies

493
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:18,980
wanting to work on, things that were originated

494
00:18:19,039 --> 00:18:20,880
in universities, then they're gonna give up and

495
00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:23,534
not bother trying. So, making sure we've got

496
00:18:23,534 --> 00:18:25,315
those those relationships right,

497
00:18:25,774 --> 00:18:28,335
those agreements right, and get the funding in

498
00:18:28,335 --> 00:18:30,894
place will help us with with overcoming those

499
00:18:30,894 --> 00:18:31,394
commercialization

500
00:18:32,494 --> 00:18:34,894
barriers, I think. And now, Alastair, I'm hoping

501
00:18:34,894 --> 00:18:36,034
you're gonna get your,

502
00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:39,079
dare I say, your metamaterial crystal ball out,

503
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,920
if such a thing exists and kind of

504
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,440
can you sort of paint a picture of

505
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,759
where metamaterials will be, let's say, a decade

506
00:18:44,759 --> 00:18:47,339
from now? Is there one, you know, burgeoning

507
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,980
area that, you know, you know, will transform

508
00:18:50,954 --> 00:18:53,355
life over the next 10 years? I think

509
00:18:53,355 --> 00:18:55,755
if we're gonna really achieve what we what

510
00:18:55,755 --> 00:18:58,234
MET materials the potential of MET MET materials

511
00:18:58,234 --> 00:18:59,994
and what we do in the academic community,

512
00:18:59,994 --> 00:19:01,775
if we're really gonna exploit that fully,

513
00:19:02,474 --> 00:19:04,154
then in 10 years' time, what would have

514
00:19:04,154 --> 00:19:06,039
happened is that we would have, and this

515
00:19:06,039 --> 00:19:07,559
is a big ambition, we would have been

516
00:19:07,559 --> 00:19:09,799
funded as a national program in the same

517
00:19:09,799 --> 00:19:12,539
similar kind of way to quantum technology and

518
00:19:12,759 --> 00:19:14,059
and so on. Because

519
00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,359
if if we've done that, then we can

520
00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:18,825
we can relax and and and understand that,

521
00:19:18,984 --> 00:19:20,904
you know, the true value of metamaterials would

522
00:19:20,904 --> 00:19:21,964
have been appreciated.

523
00:19:23,544 --> 00:19:24,204
You know,

524
00:19:24,744 --> 00:19:26,825
defense has often been one of the the

525
00:19:26,825 --> 00:19:29,724
leaders in in funding metamaterials because of the

526
00:19:29,784 --> 00:19:32,184
the ways that it helps communications and and

527
00:19:32,184 --> 00:19:33,325
and and so on.

528
00:19:33,679 --> 00:19:34,179
But

529
00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,799
we we want to see that the the

530
00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:37,299
broader

531
00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:38,579
industry community

532
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,519
adopts metamaterials in a much bigger way. And

533
00:19:41,519 --> 00:19:43,299
as materials without boundaries,

534
00:19:43,759 --> 00:19:46,240
we want to see metamaterials embedded in everyday

535
00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:46,740
devices.

536
00:19:47,174 --> 00:19:49,654
You know, what they do is offering they

537
00:19:49,654 --> 00:19:52,615
offer game changing control of essentially just the

538
00:19:52,615 --> 00:19:53,914
way that energy and

539
00:19:54,295 --> 00:19:54,795
information

540
00:19:55,255 --> 00:19:57,035
interacts with the world around us.

541
00:19:57,815 --> 00:19:59,994
I know Claire's mentioned some of the examples

542
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,000
already, but that can be a huge range

543
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:04,000
of things. I mean, what so those big

544
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,839
those big areas that we really hope to

545
00:20:05,839 --> 00:20:08,240
see metamaterials in could be in health and

546
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:09,859
things like artificial limbs

547
00:20:10,319 --> 00:20:13,220
or in medical imaging for for diagnosis.

548
00:20:14,365 --> 00:20:16,044
In energy, you know, there's a such a

549
00:20:16,044 --> 00:20:18,605
huge challenge over reducing the use of rare

550
00:20:18,605 --> 00:20:21,585
earth and critical minerals. Metamaterials can provide alternatives

551
00:20:21,724 --> 00:20:24,444
there as well as lower carbon alternatives, of

552
00:20:24,444 --> 00:20:24,944
course.

553
00:20:25,724 --> 00:20:28,320
And in space and aerospace, we need incredibly

554
00:20:28,619 --> 00:20:31,820
lightweight but really strong materials, blast resistant materials

555
00:20:31,820 --> 00:20:34,000
for satellites and so on, satellite communications.

556
00:20:34,539 --> 00:20:36,700
And we need to develop more capacity to

557
00:20:36,700 --> 00:20:38,320
send information around the world.

558
00:20:39,019 --> 00:20:41,100
So we're really looking. We're really hoping that

559
00:20:41,100 --> 00:20:42,255
metamaterials are gonna

560
00:20:42,734 --> 00:20:45,934
unlock the potential for societal and economic impact.

561
00:20:45,934 --> 00:20:47,154
And as we said before,

562
00:20:48,575 --> 00:20:50,255
and one of our big desires is that

563
00:20:50,255 --> 00:20:53,295
we we as physicists and material scientists, we

564
00:20:53,295 --> 00:20:54,974
we still want to do the the the

565
00:20:54,974 --> 00:20:55,980
work that we love,

566
00:20:56,380 --> 00:20:58,539
but we need to be showing that there's

567
00:20:58,539 --> 00:21:01,119
a huge impact to society and the economy

568
00:21:01,259 --> 00:21:03,579
from what meta materials offer. So it's so

569
00:21:03,579 --> 00:21:05,339
important to us that we see that take

570
00:21:05,339 --> 00:21:07,179
up over the next few years. I mean,

571
00:21:07,179 --> 00:21:09,704
that brings us nicely onto the Pathfinder project,

572
00:21:09,784 --> 00:21:11,704
which you're working on with the Institute of

573
00:21:11,704 --> 00:21:12,204
Physics.

574
00:21:13,144 --> 00:21:14,904
Alastair, do you wanna tell us about that

575
00:21:14,904 --> 00:21:16,825
project and what that what that hopes to

576
00:21:16,825 --> 00:21:17,325
do?

577
00:21:18,664 --> 00:21:21,144
Yeah. Well, the IOP is, as I'm sure

578
00:21:21,144 --> 00:21:23,244
you know, has a long history of shaping

579
00:21:23,304 --> 00:21:25,304
the debate on some of the most important

580
00:21:25,304 --> 00:21:27,860
physics topics to the UK and Ireland,

581
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:29,299
and the community

582
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:30,100
involved,

583
00:21:30,799 --> 00:21:31,299
often,

584
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,180
you know, really trying to embed and influence

585
00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:35,940
and and drive impact.

586
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:38,234
And what this means is,

587
00:21:39,115 --> 00:21:40,954
the IOP are looking to develop an ongoing

588
00:21:40,954 --> 00:21:43,515
program of of high impact projects, and and

589
00:21:43,515 --> 00:21:44,315
those are,

590
00:21:44,634 --> 00:21:46,714
at the moment, they're they're being informed by

591
00:21:46,714 --> 00:21:48,095
the community priorities.

592
00:21:48,875 --> 00:21:51,049
So, actually, it's the first time that the

593
00:21:51,049 --> 00:21:53,369
IOP has run an open process to kind

594
00:21:53,369 --> 00:21:55,869
of, understand what those priorities are.

595
00:21:56,569 --> 00:21:58,430
The IOP's first impact projects,

596
00:21:59,130 --> 00:22:00,829
involve the, 2,500,000,000

597
00:22:01,529 --> 00:22:03,630
pound National Quantum Technology Strategy

598
00:22:04,075 --> 00:22:07,375
and also the 1,000,000,000 pound National Semiconductor Strategy.

599
00:22:08,234 --> 00:22:09,755
The first phase of the IP is green

600
00:22:09,755 --> 00:22:10,654
economy project,

601
00:22:11,275 --> 00:22:12,095
and articulated

602
00:22:12,475 --> 00:22:14,634
the, you know, physics's key role in in

603
00:22:14,634 --> 00:22:15,855
in the energy transition.

604
00:22:17,610 --> 00:22:19,690
So as so at the moment, what we're

605
00:22:19,690 --> 00:22:22,330
working with and collaborating with IOP on our

606
00:22:22,330 --> 00:22:23,869
project is is the commercialization

607
00:22:24,490 --> 00:22:27,230
and exploitation of natural materials for applications

608
00:22:27,610 --> 00:22:29,070
across ICT, sustainability,

609
00:22:29,529 --> 00:22:31,230
health, defense, and security.

610
00:22:31,804 --> 00:22:33,644
So it's it's, you know, not not not

611
00:22:33,644 --> 00:22:35,404
a not a small problem at all to

612
00:22:35,404 --> 00:22:37,404
to try to to take forward. But that

613
00:22:37,484 --> 00:22:39,565
that's that's that's the project that we're working

614
00:22:39,565 --> 00:22:42,044
on, in collaboration with the IOP at the

615
00:22:42,044 --> 00:22:42,544
moment.

616
00:22:43,724 --> 00:22:45,950
Brilliant. And before we go, Claire, you're gonna

617
00:22:45,950 --> 00:22:47,950
tell us about, the showcase event that you've

618
00:22:47,950 --> 00:22:50,750
got coming up on 6th December. So what's

619
00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:52,910
what's that about? And what's what's it gonna

620
00:22:52,910 --> 00:22:53,410
do?

621
00:22:54,269 --> 00:22:57,329
So this is actually our 3rd industry showcase.

622
00:22:57,390 --> 00:22:59,329
We run this as an annual event,

623
00:22:59,789 --> 00:23:01,315
for the last 3 years.

624
00:23:01,694 --> 00:23:03,775
And it's always been called met materials in

625
00:23:03,775 --> 00:23:05,954
the real world in an attempt to,

626
00:23:06,414 --> 00:23:08,734
really drive the idea that met materials do

627
00:23:08,734 --> 00:23:10,654
have applications in the real world, and lots

628
00:23:10,654 --> 00:23:11,315
of them.

629
00:23:11,694 --> 00:23:13,394
So previously, we've organized

630
00:23:13,940 --> 00:23:16,579
these showcases at NPL, out in Teddington. And

631
00:23:16,579 --> 00:23:18,259
we went to the VRAG Centre For Materials

632
00:23:18,259 --> 00:23:20,900
Research in Leeds last year. This year, we've

633
00:23:20,900 --> 00:23:23,539
decided to, partly because of the Pathfinder project,

634
00:23:23,539 --> 00:23:25,700
we've decided to organise the industry showcase in

635
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:27,700
collaboration with the Institute of Physics. And we'll

636
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:29,994
be at the IOP HQ on the 6th

637
00:23:29,994 --> 00:23:30,494
December

638
00:23:31,035 --> 00:23:34,154
for our event. We're gathering lots of non

639
00:23:34,154 --> 00:23:35,434
academics for this one.

640
00:23:36,154 --> 00:23:38,255
While we're primarily an academics

641
00:23:38,634 --> 00:23:40,794
network, we want lots of people there who

642
00:23:40,794 --> 00:23:42,700
aren't academics. So we normally aim for at

643
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:45,360
least 50% of attendees not being academics.

644
00:23:45,740 --> 00:23:48,160
And we're going to have a panel discussion

645
00:23:48,220 --> 00:23:50,539
to talk to people from industry and policy

646
00:23:50,539 --> 00:23:53,340
backgrounds about what the barriers to commercialization are.

647
00:23:53,340 --> 00:23:54,940
You know, I've told you what I think

648
00:23:54,940 --> 00:23:56,299
they are. I want to hear from them

649
00:23:56,299 --> 00:23:58,085
as well, what those barriers are and how

650
00:23:58,085 --> 00:23:59,705
we might overcome them.

651
00:24:00,085 --> 00:24:02,404
We're going to have various demonstrators of methods

652
00:24:02,404 --> 00:24:03,065
or technologies,

653
00:24:03,765 --> 00:24:07,305
and lots of short snappy presentations from academics

654
00:24:07,365 --> 00:24:08,025
and industrialists

655
00:24:08,325 --> 00:24:09,525
who are going to talk to us about

656
00:24:09,525 --> 00:24:10,505
their new innovations

657
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:13,119
and the challenges that they're trying to to,

658
00:24:13,519 --> 00:24:14,019
overcome.

659
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:16,820
So we're really seeking to generate new collaborations

660
00:24:17,039 --> 00:24:19,519
that we can then drive forward for support

661
00:24:19,519 --> 00:24:21,440
in whatever mechanism that is. That could be

662
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:23,460
our pump priming. It could be another way,

663
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:25,539
to to generate those collaborations.

664
00:24:26,444 --> 00:24:28,144
And, of course, we're going to be presenting

665
00:24:28,684 --> 00:24:31,265
our initial findings from our Impact Project Pathfinder

666
00:24:31,325 --> 00:24:32,625
project with the IOP

667
00:24:33,005 --> 00:24:35,884
and looking for the community engagement that we

668
00:24:35,884 --> 00:24:38,524
need to drive that forwards in the coming

669
00:24:38,524 --> 00:24:40,740
year as we move forward to to really

670
00:24:40,740 --> 00:24:42,440
drive towards that mass materials commercialization.

671
00:24:43,059 --> 00:24:44,340
We're going to need to bring people along

672
00:24:44,340 --> 00:24:46,420
for the ride. So we'll be reporting on

673
00:24:46,420 --> 00:24:48,100
some of the facts and figures that we've

674
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:48,759
been gathering

675
00:24:49,140 --> 00:24:52,154
as part of our our impact pathfinder work.

676
00:24:52,315 --> 00:24:54,734
We've really been trying to find evidence and

677
00:24:54,875 --> 00:24:57,275
understand what the current landscape is, both in

678
00:24:57,275 --> 00:24:59,215
metamaterials in the UK and elsewhere,

679
00:24:59,755 --> 00:25:02,234
and then really drive that, promotion of these

680
00:25:02,234 --> 00:25:02,734
messages

681
00:25:03,275 --> 00:25:05,275
and make sure that we're really taking advantage

682
00:25:05,275 --> 00:25:07,849
of them in the year to come. And

683
00:25:07,849 --> 00:25:09,690
we've really engaged with some new sectors as

684
00:25:09,690 --> 00:25:11,529
well. I think it's worth highlighting as well

685
00:25:11,529 --> 00:25:13,950
at this point, as part of this huge

686
00:25:14,009 --> 00:25:16,569
response we've had to the, registration for the

687
00:25:16,569 --> 00:25:18,744
event this year. And I think that's, you

688
00:25:18,744 --> 00:25:21,625
know, Bowdoin making a very exciting year ahead

689
00:25:21,625 --> 00:25:22,605
for the Metamaterials

690
00:25:22,904 --> 00:25:24,365
Network in in 2025,

691
00:25:25,065 --> 00:25:27,144
obviously, working with the IOP on on the

692
00:25:27,304 --> 00:25:28,525
in the Impact project.

693
00:25:29,625 --> 00:25:31,704
So we're we're gonna be continue working across

694
00:25:31,704 --> 00:25:34,539
our challenge areas and in and involving as

695
00:25:34,539 --> 00:25:37,039
many new sectors as we can to really

696
00:25:37,420 --> 00:25:40,140
drive down into the depths of metamaterial work

697
00:25:40,140 --> 00:25:41,359
across the UK.

698
00:25:42,859 --> 00:25:44,460
And we're, you know, and one of the

699
00:25:44,460 --> 00:25:46,059
big things that is likely to happen in

700
00:25:46,059 --> 00:25:47,740
the next few months is we're likely to

701
00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:48,480
hit a1000

702
00:25:49,005 --> 00:25:50,765
members of of our of our of our

703
00:25:50,765 --> 00:25:51,265
network.

704
00:25:51,964 --> 00:25:54,605
So, we obviously welcome anyone to to come

705
00:25:54,605 --> 00:25:56,845
along to the event. Let us know via

706
00:25:56,845 --> 00:25:57,505
the website.

707
00:25:58,204 --> 00:25:59,424
But we'll run a 2020

708
00:26:00,125 --> 00:26:01,964
25 event as well, so there's that to

709
00:26:01,964 --> 00:26:03,869
look forward to. But we will have a

710
00:26:03,869 --> 00:26:05,789
little celebration when we hit that a thousand

711
00:26:05,789 --> 00:26:07,630
marker on our our membership list as well.

712
00:26:07,630 --> 00:26:09,170
And, of course, you can sign up

713
00:26:09,470 --> 00:26:12,130
via, the website, which is, metamaterials.network.

714
00:26:13,869 --> 00:26:15,734
Very good. And, well, let's hope this time

715
00:26:15,734 --> 00:26:17,434
year, we who knows? We might be celebrating

716
00:26:17,575 --> 00:26:19,734
John Pendry winning a Nobel Prize because that's

717
00:26:19,734 --> 00:26:22,054
always been on our Physics World shortlist of

718
00:26:22,054 --> 00:26:23,494
people who might win. It didn't he didn't

719
00:26:23,494 --> 00:26:25,035
win this year, but let's see.

720
00:26:25,494 --> 00:26:27,355
So thanks very much, Alastair.

721
00:26:27,894 --> 00:26:30,460
Thanks, Claire. Brilliant to, have you on the

722
00:26:30,460 --> 00:26:32,460
podcast, and good luck with the events. Thank

723
00:26:32,460 --> 00:26:32,960
you.

724
00:26:40,539 --> 00:26:42,079
That was Claire Danzer

725
00:26:42,380 --> 00:26:43,759
and Alastair Hibbins

726
00:26:44,144 --> 00:26:45,045
in conversation

727
00:26:45,505 --> 00:26:47,605
with Physics World's Mateen Durrani.

728
00:26:48,224 --> 00:26:51,605
Thanks to all 3 for a fascinating conversation

729
00:26:52,144 --> 00:26:52,965
about metamaterials.

730
00:26:53,904 --> 00:26:56,705
And a special thanks to our producer, Fred

731
00:26:56,705 --> 00:26:57,205
Ailes.

732
00:26:57,950 --> 00:27:00,269
We'll be back again next week when we

733
00:27:00,269 --> 00:27:04,369
will unveil the physics world top 10 breakthroughs

734
00:27:04,589 --> 00:27:05,570
of 2024.

735
00:27:06,670 --> 00:27:07,570
See you then.