Quantum metrology at NPL: we explore the challenges and opportunities

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Hello, and welcome to this episode of the

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Physics World Weekly Podcast,

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which is sponsored by the National Physical Laboratory.

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I'm Hamish Johnston.

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The National Physical Laboratory

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or NPL

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is The UK's

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National Metrology

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Institute.

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It provides cutting edge measurement science,

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engineering, and technology

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to underpin prosperity and quality of life in

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The UK.

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NPL bridges the gap between research and industry

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by providing the measurement science,

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facilities,

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and expertise

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needed to accelerate innovation

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from lab to market

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across various sectors.

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One of those sectors is quantum,

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which we're going to dive into today.

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I'm joined by Tim Pryor, who is quantum

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program manager at NPL,

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and by John Devaney,

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who is NPL's

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quantum standards manager.

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Hi, Tim and John.

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Welcome to the podcast.

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Hi there. Great to be here. Hi. Pleased

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to meet you again.

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So, Tim,

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in October, NPL became a founding member of

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NMIQ,

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which is a global initiative to standardize metrology

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standards

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for quantum technologies.

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What is NMIQ,

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and why does NPL see it as crucial

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to the success of the quantum industry?

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So NMIQ

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is a, an initiative,

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between some of the world's leading national maturity

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institutes to work on prestandardization

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research

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leading to standards in the future.

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So quantum

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is often very complicated and has huge scope

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of application.

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This makes it,

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really difficult to understand the technologies

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sufficiently well to able to just standardize

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things. Faced with this problem, we work closely

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with The US first and then grant you

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with the other g seven,

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members and Australia

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to develop a framework

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that we can work together on standardization

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where there's a common

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strategic

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interest. The thing is because quantum is so

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broad and so difficult,

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no one country could do it all. So

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we have to work together on these sorts

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of issues.

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And, Tim,

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NPL has very, very strong

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connections with industry.

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What is industry telling you about what it

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wants from quantum standards?

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It's a that's a very interesting question.

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Industry tells us that

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you really need to work differently nowadays with

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standards.

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So emerging technologies traditionally

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have, had standards evolve gradually,

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probably in a serious type of effect.

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In reality now with the world being so

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global,

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information is shared almost instantly amongst everyone, and

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so everyone wants the answers right now.

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So if you want to make sure that

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your technology

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is part of the standardization

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process, which leads to adoption

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and use, then you've got to be working

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in this area in parallel to the innovation

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being developed.

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The thing is that innovators are usually so

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busy doing things,

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you know, like building the things they're trying

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to get standardized, so they don't always want

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to get involved.

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And this is where organizations like MPO can

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actually help them in the by expressing what

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they need to happen, we could look after

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them for that. In The UK, we've gone

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a bit further than that, and we've been

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running a pilot,

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for,

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DCIT,

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called the UK Quantum Standards Network.

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And that is about bringing together all the

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government agencies that were interested in in in

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standardization of quantum technologies

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and sort of find make a more coordinated

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approach, making it easier for industry to get

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information,

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and making it easy for us to actually

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work together for a common interest.

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It it must be really difficult though, Tim,

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because quantum technology is evolving

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so quickly.

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What are the challenges of defining

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standards,

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for the quantum industry in such a fast

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paced environment?

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It's it's very, very challenging. And, actually, a

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lot of the work we do in MPL

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is to talk to people outside to try

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and understand what their future requirements are going

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to be so that we can do the

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research necessary to make those standards in the

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future.

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And, of course, this comes back to the

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NMIQ thing. We can't do it all alone.

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And

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so we speak to all our sister organizations

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around the world to get there and and

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to put onto,

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how this might work and what we need

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to work on.

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But it's it's it's an amazing thing, really.

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So

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in metrology, we use quantum technologies for doing

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exquisite measurements,

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and that's turned around on its head now.

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So the ability to do that means that

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we can really truly input into the evolving

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quantum technologies.

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And that knowledge now that we've developed over

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decades of use is now becoming incredibly relevant

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to people in helping people understand

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what they have and how you compare something.

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I mean, some really interesting examples is, you

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know, if we

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think about the application everyone talks about, quantum

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computing,

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and people say, how do you compare one

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computer to another?

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That's an incredibly difficult question.

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There are so many different types of quantum

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computers,

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all in theory there to do things in

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slightly different ways. If you can find a

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methodology for,

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characterizing one computer, that might not be very

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good for another type.

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So it's incredibly difficult, and it's a real

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big challenge. Hence, you have to work together

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collaboratively to come up with these answers.

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And I suppose it's particularly difficult with quantum

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computing because we don't know

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which

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type of qubit

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will ultimately

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be used in, you know, sort of quantum

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computers of the future. And indeed, it might

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be more than one

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type of qubit. So it must be very

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difficult to,

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well, I suppose keep up with the development

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of qubit technologies and and come up with

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with ways of evaluating them.

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Very much so. It's, you know,

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the the question of which qubit is best

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or

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how do you compare different qubit modalities

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is a really, really difficult question, and it

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can keep, metrologists

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talking in a pub for days and arguing

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about it. But in reality, what we do

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is we take it right back to the

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fundamentals of the physics side of it and

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try to truly understand the mechanism of how

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these things are working.

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And then we try to

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give that information to the people who are

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using these qubits,

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in a way that's useful for them to

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understand how they might want to, for example,

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control material quality, which could affect how a

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qubit, work.

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But this again, with MPL does quite a

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lot of work in qubit technologies, but not

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in every type of qubit. So then we

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collaborate with, you know, The US, Japan,

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Germany, etcetera

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to get their input so that The UK

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can access that knowledge,

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and then our collaborators get the knowledge from

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The UK as well.

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And and John, I wanted to bring you

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in,

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and talk about quantum sensors,

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which,

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they they seem to be a fairly advanced,

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quantum technology with some commercial products

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available today.

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What metrology and standards are required to create

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high quality

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quantum sensors?

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Yeah. You're right. That there there are products

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on the market already, which are using quantum

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phenomena.

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But on that question of what standards are

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required, there are two sides to that. One

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is that quantum sensors are more sensitive, more

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accurate, and more useful than existing sensors.

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For example, magnetometers for monitoring brain function, drive

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emitters for mapping underground resources, spectroscopic

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photodetectors

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for assessing

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gas leaks.

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And what matters to those buying the sensor

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is its performance,

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not that it's quantum.

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And in that it's in that sense, standards

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are needed to extend,

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the the standard standards range that already exists

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down into the end of these,

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finer and finer details.

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But on the other hand,

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quantum sensors can only be built with components

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and subsystems

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that are themselves tested and found ideal for

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the task.

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Iron traps, diamond substrates with nitrogen vacancies, NV

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centers,

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superconducting quantum interference devices, SQUIDs.

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These also need standards.

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So we are approaching it from both directions.

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We are helping characterize the the quantum devices

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and the quantum characteristics,

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And we're helping work out how it is

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that you actually,

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measure some assess something that is measuring something

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more accurately than anything else can, where there's

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nothing to compare it against.

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And, NMI is like NPL

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are are doing things like working out how

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how to characterize single photon detectors.

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The the only single photon detectors can detect

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single photons.

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And I I wanted to ask you about,

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single photon detectors and sources,

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in light of quantum cryptography, which is another

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quantum technology that, I mean, I I suppose

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you can say it's fairly mature. There are

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commercial

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systems available.

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And in those in that technology, it's really

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important

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to have photon sources and detectors

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that are high quality

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and secure.

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So how is NPL

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supporting the development of quantum cryptography?

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Yeah. So sources and detectors in themselves are

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are not secure.

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It's the way the system is built around

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it that that creates that security.

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And that is one of the,

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one of the aspects of

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the performance of a QKD system

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that is potentially vulnerable,

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to outside attack.

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We've, led the way in characterizing QKD systems,

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the boxes that are, as you say, are

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already on the market.

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QKD, just to elaborate, is a way of

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generating cryptographic

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keys that are unbreakable because they're intrinsically random.

284
00:10:59,090 --> 00:11:01,910
They use the randomness of of quantum physics.

285
00:11:02,929 --> 00:11:04,629
They do it by generating

286
00:11:05,009 --> 00:11:07,750
pairs of photons that are randomly coded.

287
00:11:08,375 --> 00:11:11,195
So there's two levels of randomness going on,

288
00:11:11,815 --> 00:11:12,954
usually by polarization.

289
00:11:13,735 --> 00:11:16,054
And then the process can't be intercepted if

290
00:11:16,054 --> 00:11:17,434
they are single photons

291
00:11:17,975 --> 00:11:20,154
without destroying that information, without

292
00:11:20,779 --> 00:11:23,179
the two the sender and receiver knowing that

293
00:11:23,179 --> 00:11:24,879
there's someone trying to break in.

294
00:11:25,340 --> 00:11:26,480
So like you say,

295
00:11:26,940 --> 00:11:27,679
the sources,

296
00:11:28,220 --> 00:11:29,840
but even most of the detectors,

297
00:11:30,779 --> 00:11:32,399
are a are a point of vulnerability

298
00:11:33,464 --> 00:11:35,725
because you can you can blind,

299
00:11:36,985 --> 00:11:37,225
the,

300
00:11:38,584 --> 00:11:39,324
the detector

301
00:11:39,865 --> 00:11:42,184
by by shining a put a brighter source

302
00:11:42,184 --> 00:11:43,725
into it and then

303
00:11:44,105 --> 00:11:47,144
use your own source to, to spoof the

304
00:11:47,144 --> 00:11:47,644
system.

305
00:11:48,750 --> 00:11:50,769
That's only one. There's other vulnerabilities

306
00:11:51,950 --> 00:11:54,750
like, they don't actually use single photons. And

307
00:11:54,750 --> 00:11:57,070
at this point, they tend to be small

308
00:11:57,070 --> 00:11:59,070
bundles of photons. But if they use too

309
00:11:59,070 --> 00:12:01,790
many, it's possible to split enough of them

310
00:12:01,790 --> 00:12:02,290
off

311
00:12:02,674 --> 00:12:03,315
and and,

312
00:12:04,674 --> 00:12:06,774
and join in on the the key,

313
00:12:07,475 --> 00:12:08,375
key reception.

314
00:12:09,154 --> 00:12:11,815
So we went through all the potential vulnerabilities.

315
00:12:12,514 --> 00:12:14,355
I say we, not me personally. I'm not

316
00:12:14,355 --> 00:12:15,414
allowed in the lab.

317
00:12:15,870 --> 00:12:17,950
We went through all the potential vulnerabilities that

318
00:12:17,950 --> 00:12:19,570
had been identified in QKD,

319
00:12:20,269 --> 00:12:21,090
and we tested

320
00:12:21,470 --> 00:12:23,250
we tested existing systems

321
00:12:23,870 --> 00:12:26,029
against them. And we and we worked out

322
00:12:26,029 --> 00:12:26,529
as

323
00:12:26,910 --> 00:12:28,990
the the sort of criteria that would be

324
00:12:28,990 --> 00:12:31,514
needed in the standard, And we took that

325
00:12:31,514 --> 00:12:32,654
into Etsy,

326
00:12:33,674 --> 00:12:35,754
for the building of their QKD sis

327
00:12:36,315 --> 00:12:37,294
standards family.

328
00:12:38,715 --> 00:12:41,595
And and, John, Tim's already touched a little

329
00:12:41,595 --> 00:12:43,615
bit on the need to

330
00:12:44,610 --> 00:12:48,789
develop performance metrics and benchmarking for quantum computers.

331
00:12:49,169 --> 00:12:52,049
And I understand that NPL is leading, an

332
00:12:52,049 --> 00:12:52,549
initiative,

333
00:12:53,649 --> 00:12:54,629
in that direction.

334
00:12:55,409 --> 00:12:57,649
Why do we need these metrics, and and

335
00:12:57,649 --> 00:13:00,149
what are the challenges in creating them?

336
00:13:01,075 --> 00:13:04,054
There's there is more than one initiative underway.

337
00:13:05,235 --> 00:13:07,394
And the one that I I closest to

338
00:13:07,394 --> 00:13:09,315
is the way that it's been brought into

339
00:13:09,315 --> 00:13:10,535
the standards world.

340
00:13:11,554 --> 00:13:13,254
It's too early for,

341
00:13:14,059 --> 00:13:15,120
full standardization,

342
00:13:16,059 --> 00:13:17,740
but there is a there is a there's

343
00:13:17,740 --> 00:13:20,059
a real demand from the potential buyers of

344
00:13:20,059 --> 00:13:20,959
quantum computers

345
00:13:21,339 --> 00:13:23,339
to know what it is, what are their

346
00:13:23,339 --> 00:13:25,659
strengths, and how do they compare one against

347
00:13:25,659 --> 00:13:26,320
the other.

348
00:13:26,945 --> 00:13:28,565
But that is far from

349
00:13:28,945 --> 00:13:30,085
a a simple question.

350
00:13:30,465 --> 00:13:33,125
It's not a simple question with conventional computers,

351
00:13:33,345 --> 00:13:35,665
but it's even more difficult when we have

352
00:13:35,665 --> 00:13:36,485
no universal

353
00:13:37,024 --> 00:13:40,120
error corrected quantum computer. As Tim said, there

354
00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:40,620
are

355
00:13:40,959 --> 00:13:41,459
a

356
00:13:41,799 --> 00:13:42,940
a number of platforms,

357
00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:45,659
including superconducting qubits,

358
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,019
ion traps,

359
00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,299
that are under consideration.

360
00:13:51,215 --> 00:13:53,774
In the early days of attempting to benchmark

361
00:13:53,774 --> 00:13:54,274
them,

362
00:13:54,735 --> 00:13:56,815
it was suggested that you could simply count

363
00:13:56,815 --> 00:13:58,815
the number of qubits and people will still

364
00:13:58,815 --> 00:13:59,715
put up graphs

365
00:14:00,254 --> 00:14:02,514
and say, my computer has

366
00:14:03,919 --> 00:14:06,559
48 or a 150

367
00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:07,620
cubits in it.

368
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:10,399
And when it was it was realized that

369
00:14:10,399 --> 00:14:12,959
in terms of computing power, that wasn't enough.

370
00:14:12,959 --> 00:14:15,919
They moved to gate depth. How many how

371
00:14:15,919 --> 00:14:17,539
many gates, how many processes

372
00:14:17,985 --> 00:14:20,384
could your quantum processor go through before it

373
00:14:20,384 --> 00:14:21,365
lost the information?

374
00:14:22,304 --> 00:14:23,684
That too is too simplistic.

375
00:14:24,784 --> 00:14:25,524
And so,

376
00:14:27,184 --> 00:14:29,205
we're beginning to look at,

377
00:14:30,304 --> 00:14:32,085
at at more multidimensional

378
00:14:32,705 --> 00:14:33,205
aspects

379
00:14:33,610 --> 00:14:34,750
to hardware benchmarking.

380
00:14:35,610 --> 00:14:36,910
And at the same time,

381
00:14:37,690 --> 00:14:40,269
I'm trying to answer the question, if performance

382
00:14:40,410 --> 00:14:41,470
is what matters,

383
00:14:42,009 --> 00:14:44,750
surely, it's how quickly and how effectively

384
00:14:45,450 --> 00:14:46,190
your quantum

385
00:14:46,570 --> 00:14:47,070
processor

386
00:14:47,450 --> 00:14:49,704
can do a particular task.

387
00:14:50,964 --> 00:14:52,964
That, it turns out, isn't as simple a

388
00:14:52,964 --> 00:14:54,904
question as you might think either,

389
00:14:57,044 --> 00:15:00,004
partly because quantum processors are part of a

390
00:15:00,004 --> 00:15:00,450
stack

391
00:15:01,250 --> 00:15:03,029
in in a similar way to telecoms,

392
00:15:03,970 --> 00:15:06,049
and the error correction is happening in a

393
00:15:06,049 --> 00:15:07,669
multitude of different ways.

394
00:15:08,049 --> 00:15:10,290
But we're we're attacking that one as well,

395
00:15:10,290 --> 00:15:12,710
and and we're bringing the answers to these,

396
00:15:13,330 --> 00:15:14,149
these researches

397
00:15:14,955 --> 00:15:17,754
into the standards, particularly in SanSan, like the

398
00:15:17,754 --> 00:15:19,134
European standards bodies,

399
00:15:19,595 --> 00:15:22,634
and I see IEC ISO, the global standards

400
00:15:22,634 --> 00:15:24,415
bodies, where they're doing

401
00:15:24,875 --> 00:15:28,175
early stage standards. They're doing technical reports on

402
00:15:28,669 --> 00:15:29,329
the benchmarking

403
00:15:30,350 --> 00:15:33,470
systems that people have have come up with

404
00:15:33,470 --> 00:15:33,970
already.

405
00:15:35,470 --> 00:15:37,709
So so John and Tim, I I did

406
00:15:37,709 --> 00:15:40,289
my PhD many, many, many years ago,

407
00:15:40,715 --> 00:15:42,955
and I became a science journalist. But I

408
00:15:42,955 --> 00:15:44,554
often think about, you know, sort of an

409
00:15:44,554 --> 00:15:45,774
alternative universe

410
00:15:46,475 --> 00:15:48,894
where I could have done something else.

411
00:15:49,355 --> 00:15:51,934
And one thing that I've always found appealing

412
00:15:52,730 --> 00:15:55,049
is the idea of working at a place

413
00:15:55,049 --> 00:15:56,029
like NPL.

414
00:15:56,490 --> 00:15:58,029
I mean, it just sounds like,

415
00:15:58,569 --> 00:16:00,329
well, it doesn't sound like it. I know

416
00:16:00,329 --> 00:16:01,789
that people there are doing

417
00:16:03,129 --> 00:16:05,769
a vast, you know, sort of variety of

418
00:16:05,769 --> 00:16:09,254
really interesting research and working with industry and

419
00:16:09,554 --> 00:16:11,095
developing lots of,

420
00:16:11,475 --> 00:16:13,014
of of new technologies.

421
00:16:13,634 --> 00:16:15,875
So, you know, if if there's somebody out

422
00:16:15,875 --> 00:16:18,215
there who's just finished a PhD,

423
00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:22,679
How would you advise them in terms of,

424
00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:24,779
pursuing a career at NPL?

425
00:16:25,559 --> 00:16:26,379
What's available?

426
00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:28,840
So I think one of the things to

427
00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,740
first say is that measurement metrology

428
00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,764
underpins almost everything everybody does. So there are

429
00:16:35,764 --> 00:16:37,764
lots and lots of fields of interest that

430
00:16:37,764 --> 00:16:40,084
you can you can work within. And as

431
00:16:40,084 --> 00:16:41,784
I mentioned, at the beginning,

432
00:16:42,964 --> 00:16:45,684
we've been using quantum for doing really, really

433
00:16:45,684 --> 00:16:47,610
amazing measurements for a long time.

434
00:16:48,089 --> 00:16:49,870
So we called that quantum metrology.

435
00:16:50,730 --> 00:16:52,329
And that knowledge has led us to be

436
00:16:52,329 --> 00:16:53,149
able to do metrology

437
00:16:53,529 --> 00:16:54,269
for quantum.

438
00:16:54,809 --> 00:16:56,589
So this is basic fundamental

439
00:16:56,889 --> 00:16:59,529
science. So if that's what drives people, there

440
00:16:59,529 --> 00:17:01,309
is in these emerging technologies,

441
00:17:01,625 --> 00:17:04,284
there's a requirement to do fundamental physics.

442
00:17:05,304 --> 00:17:05,804
But

443
00:17:06,184 --> 00:17:08,345
as you develop that, you get to play

444
00:17:08,345 --> 00:17:09,404
with all the applying,

445
00:17:10,105 --> 00:17:11,964
uses of that of that technology.

446
00:17:12,424 --> 00:17:13,944
So we get to work in lots and

447
00:17:13,944 --> 00:17:14,845
lots of fields,

448
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:17,910
really help to enable things to actually really,

449
00:17:17,910 --> 00:17:19,529
really happen. So exposure

450
00:17:19,910 --> 00:17:22,630
to lots of brilliant people around the country,

451
00:17:22,630 --> 00:17:24,869
around the world, it's an it's an amazing

452
00:17:24,869 --> 00:17:26,250
opportunity for people.

453
00:17:27,494 --> 00:17:28,154
I would

454
00:17:28,615 --> 00:17:29,115
add.

455
00:17:29,575 --> 00:17:31,335
One of the things about coming here to

456
00:17:31,335 --> 00:17:33,494
NPL so like like you, Hamish, I did

457
00:17:33,494 --> 00:17:35,414
my PhD, and then I went off and,

458
00:17:35,894 --> 00:17:36,934
I actually worked,

459
00:17:37,255 --> 00:17:39,355
for the, Institute of Physics Publishing.

460
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,700
That's my that's my first foray into,

461
00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:44,779
public publishing.

462
00:17:46,839 --> 00:17:48,679
And it suited me down to the ground.

463
00:17:48,679 --> 00:17:51,000
I really liked my time there, and it

464
00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:52,460
suited my way of working.

465
00:17:53,015 --> 00:17:54,075
Coming to NPL,

466
00:17:54,455 --> 00:17:56,375
having been there and having been in the

467
00:17:56,375 --> 00:17:57,674
standards world for

468
00:17:57,975 --> 00:17:58,795
twenty years,

469
00:18:00,535 --> 00:18:03,515
that what Tim's talking about, working on metrology,

470
00:18:04,215 --> 00:18:06,990
it really suits people who not just do

471
00:18:06,990 --> 00:18:09,470
proof of principle, which is largely what doing

472
00:18:09,470 --> 00:18:11,410
the PhD is, but love

473
00:18:11,950 --> 00:18:13,650
getting things down to

474
00:18:13,950 --> 00:18:15,009
that nth degree

475
00:18:15,309 --> 00:18:16,049
of of precision,

476
00:18:17,470 --> 00:18:19,534
which which is a is a very

477
00:18:19,835 --> 00:18:22,954
different mindset from you'll find almost anywhere else

478
00:18:22,954 --> 00:18:23,694
in the world.

479
00:18:24,075 --> 00:18:26,634
But that doesn't mean that's everyone at NPL

480
00:18:26,634 --> 00:18:28,974
because I they wouldn't have employed me otherwise.

481
00:18:30,329 --> 00:18:32,990
There there there's lots of different roles,

482
00:18:33,769 --> 00:18:34,909
within NPL

483
00:18:35,450 --> 00:18:36,909
other than working on

484
00:18:37,369 --> 00:18:37,869
metrology

485
00:18:38,569 --> 00:18:39,069
itself.

486
00:18:40,329 --> 00:18:42,329
And I'm I'm pleased that I've been taken

487
00:18:42,329 --> 00:18:44,829
on as a standards expert rather than

488
00:18:45,144 --> 00:18:47,005
as a an experimental physicist.

489
00:18:48,505 --> 00:18:50,744
And and I I should say that I'm

490
00:18:50,744 --> 00:18:52,904
guessing that it's it's not only people with

491
00:18:52,904 --> 00:18:54,125
PhDs in physics

492
00:18:54,505 --> 00:18:55,884
that you're looking for.

493
00:18:56,984 --> 00:18:58,204
Yeah. We're we're we're

494
00:18:58,609 --> 00:19:00,369
we're looking for all all people. And in

495
00:19:00,369 --> 00:19:02,470
fact, we have apprenticeship schemes where,

496
00:19:03,170 --> 00:19:05,170
you know, we we take people in and

497
00:19:05,170 --> 00:19:07,910
develop their skills. Engineers are really important.

498
00:19:08,769 --> 00:19:10,230
These people are sometimes

499
00:19:10,865 --> 00:19:12,805
more difficult to find than the PhD

500
00:19:13,825 --> 00:19:15,985
people. So there's lots of opportunities, but you

501
00:19:15,985 --> 00:19:18,065
need the support around it as well. Need

502
00:19:18,065 --> 00:19:20,725
the, people who need to understand intellectual property.

503
00:19:20,945 --> 00:19:23,365
The people who manage these highly complex,

504
00:19:24,289 --> 00:19:25,970
projects, especially when there are a lot of

505
00:19:25,970 --> 00:19:26,470
partners,

506
00:19:26,929 --> 00:19:27,429
etcetera.

507
00:19:27,890 --> 00:19:29,269
But I think the I mean,

508
00:19:29,890 --> 00:19:32,069
it's now quite recognized that

509
00:19:32,369 --> 00:19:34,369
you need to invest in this sort of

510
00:19:34,369 --> 00:19:34,869
infrastructure,

511
00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:36,869
you know, this measurement capability

512
00:19:37,424 --> 00:19:38,644
in order to actually

513
00:19:39,424 --> 00:19:41,424
allow these things to come to market, to

514
00:19:41,424 --> 00:19:43,045
give The UK the opportunity

515
00:19:43,345 --> 00:19:46,065
to have both growth in the GDP, but

516
00:19:46,065 --> 00:19:47,924
also look after its, security.

517
00:19:48,705 --> 00:19:51,184
And it's really good because The UK's national

518
00:19:51,184 --> 00:19:51,684
strategy

519
00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,640
quantum actually recognizes this and talks about it

520
00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,099
as a really important mechanism.

521
00:19:56,640 --> 00:19:58,640
And I think that's something that's really important

522
00:19:58,640 --> 00:19:59,140
because

523
00:19:59,679 --> 00:20:00,819
metrology institutes

524
00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,659
have been the unsung heroes behind the scenes

525
00:20:05,204 --> 00:20:05,704
for

526
00:20:06,005 --> 00:20:09,224
decades and decade developing capability that enables

527
00:20:09,525 --> 00:20:10,025
trade,

528
00:20:10,484 --> 00:20:12,904
enables safety, enables so many things.

529
00:20:13,365 --> 00:20:14,585
But because it happens

530
00:20:14,884 --> 00:20:15,384
seamlessly,

531
00:20:16,085 --> 00:20:16,585
usually,

532
00:20:17,059 --> 00:20:19,400
then it's just invisible to most people.

533
00:20:19,859 --> 00:20:22,359
But now people recognize with these very complex

534
00:20:22,420 --> 00:20:25,059
technologies coming to market that for those to

535
00:20:25,059 --> 00:20:27,079
happen, you have to have good metrology.

536
00:20:28,914 --> 00:20:31,154
And Tim, we we've spoken a bit about

537
00:20:31,154 --> 00:20:34,194
NPL's connections with industry, but I would assume

538
00:20:34,194 --> 00:20:35,654
that you have very strong,

539
00:20:36,275 --> 00:20:38,214
connections with the academic world,

540
00:20:38,835 --> 00:20:41,255
in physics and and other related,

541
00:20:42,914 --> 00:20:44,220
subjects. Is that right?

542
00:20:44,859 --> 00:20:47,980
Yeah. I mean, we again, we have we're

543
00:20:47,980 --> 00:20:49,200
a reasonably big laboratory,

544
00:20:49,579 --> 00:20:51,419
but the amount of questions we get asked,

545
00:20:51,419 --> 00:20:53,740
you couldn't answer them all yourself. And so

546
00:20:53,740 --> 00:20:55,500
MPL doesn't go out there to try and

547
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:57,894
reinvent what other people have done. It goes

548
00:20:57,894 --> 00:20:59,654
out there to try and collaborate with the

549
00:20:59,654 --> 00:21:01,035
best people around the country.

550
00:21:01,494 --> 00:21:03,654
In, in the quantum side, that will be

551
00:21:03,654 --> 00:21:05,115
with the quantum hubs,

552
00:21:05,494 --> 00:21:07,015
but people outside that,

553
00:21:07,414 --> 00:21:07,914
international,

554
00:21:08,615 --> 00:21:09,755
academia, etcetera.

555
00:21:10,599 --> 00:21:13,240
We've tried to identify where we have gaps

556
00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:15,159
in our knowledge or The UK has gaps

557
00:21:15,159 --> 00:21:16,839
in its knowledge, and then we try to

558
00:21:16,839 --> 00:21:19,019
collaborate with the people who have those skills.

559
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:21,500
And

560
00:21:21,974 --> 00:21:24,315
I just wanna ask both of you,

561
00:21:25,174 --> 00:21:27,494
what, you know, what do you find most

562
00:21:27,494 --> 00:21:28,954
exciting about working

563
00:21:29,575 --> 00:21:30,075
in

564
00:21:30,454 --> 00:21:30,954
quantum

565
00:21:31,654 --> 00:21:34,454
metrology? Is it is it the the the

566
00:21:34,454 --> 00:21:36,930
pace of change and, you you know, the

567
00:21:37,410 --> 00:21:39,410
always having to keep up with the latest

568
00:21:39,410 --> 00:21:40,470
research? Or

569
00:21:41,330 --> 00:21:43,330
is it just the novelty that, you know,

570
00:21:43,330 --> 00:21:44,150
these these

571
00:21:44,930 --> 00:21:45,430
esoteric

572
00:21:46,049 --> 00:21:48,549
concepts of quantum physics can be

573
00:21:49,664 --> 00:21:50,404
turned into

574
00:21:50,705 --> 00:21:52,785
technologies? What, you know, what what gets you

575
00:21:52,785 --> 00:21:54,485
guys up, in the morning?

576
00:21:56,144 --> 00:21:58,144
I'd go with the first one. It's, it

577
00:21:58,305 --> 00:22:00,945
it's remarkable. I mean, I've my background was

578
00:22:00,945 --> 00:22:01,684
in optoelectronics

579
00:22:02,144 --> 00:22:02,884
and communications.

580
00:22:03,664 --> 00:22:05,045
And back in the nineties,

581
00:22:06,089 --> 00:22:08,170
you would go to conferences every year, and

582
00:22:08,170 --> 00:22:08,829
they would

583
00:22:09,130 --> 00:22:12,170
be making promises which were slightly better than

584
00:22:12,170 --> 00:22:14,730
previously. But there was no there was nothing

585
00:22:14,730 --> 00:22:15,230
groundbreaking

586
00:22:15,769 --> 00:22:18,134
about it. The physics was well known, and

587
00:22:18,214 --> 00:22:20,295
and they were really just solving engineering and

588
00:22:20,295 --> 00:22:21,515
manufacturing problems,

589
00:22:21,815 --> 00:22:23,815
which isn't easy, which is why I don't

590
00:22:23,815 --> 00:22:24,954
do it. That either.

591
00:22:26,055 --> 00:22:26,875
But now

592
00:22:27,255 --> 00:22:29,414
the the real progress and when one of

593
00:22:29,414 --> 00:22:31,319
the areas within quantum where

594
00:22:31,799 --> 00:22:34,119
progress has been massive in just the last

595
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,259
two or three years

596
00:22:35,639 --> 00:22:37,659
is in, distributed entanglement

597
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,279
where the the the test

598
00:22:41,079 --> 00:22:42,059
three years ago,

599
00:22:42,759 --> 00:22:45,019
the the first tests that you could send

600
00:22:45,765 --> 00:22:47,144
an entangled photon

601
00:22:47,445 --> 00:22:48,744
out over,

602
00:22:49,125 --> 00:22:51,625
say, 15 kilometers of fiber and

603
00:22:52,244 --> 00:22:54,184
and measurably still be entangled

604
00:22:54,884 --> 00:22:57,125
had just been done. And now there are

605
00:22:57,125 --> 00:22:59,144
test networks all over the world,

606
00:22:59,450 --> 00:23:01,549
which are getting ready for product

607
00:23:02,009 --> 00:23:04,910
to make to use quantum entanglement in in

608
00:23:05,210 --> 00:23:06,509
in networks at scale.

609
00:23:07,049 --> 00:23:09,549
That that sort of pace of change is,

610
00:23:10,250 --> 00:23:11,549
quite exciting, really.

611
00:23:12,250 --> 00:23:13,710
And what about you, Tim?

612
00:23:14,275 --> 00:23:16,934
So for me, I mean, it's it's truly

613
00:23:17,154 --> 00:23:19,315
a privilege to be part of working with

614
00:23:19,315 --> 00:23:22,115
so many talented people either at NPL or

615
00:23:22,115 --> 00:23:24,755
in academia and industry in The UK or

616
00:23:24,755 --> 00:23:25,255
international.

617
00:23:25,714 --> 00:23:27,654
You get to see so many different

618
00:23:28,035 --> 00:23:30,549
people. You get to see so many brilliant

619
00:23:30,549 --> 00:23:31,049
technologies.

620
00:23:31,669 --> 00:23:33,210
Last week, I was at CERN.

621
00:23:34,230 --> 00:23:36,230
You know, you get exposed to the things

622
00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:37,990
that you you know, when you're at university,

623
00:23:37,990 --> 00:23:41,049
you only ever dreamt about getting involved in.

624
00:23:41,190 --> 00:23:41,929
And yet

625
00:23:42,544 --> 00:23:45,184
through metrology and through working with a an

626
00:23:45,184 --> 00:23:46,964
organization that's very international,

627
00:23:47,585 --> 00:23:49,684
it's amazing what you can get involved in.

628
00:23:51,345 --> 00:23:54,304
Well, that's great. Thanks. Thanks, Tim and John,

629
00:23:54,304 --> 00:23:55,684
for coming on the podcast,

630
00:23:56,224 --> 00:23:56,724
today.

631
00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:58,819
No worries. Thanks, Janesh.

632
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,259
That was NPL's Tim Pryor and John Devaney.

633
00:24:10,785 --> 00:24:12,725
Thanks to both of them for a fascinating

634
00:24:12,945 --> 00:24:13,445
conversation.

635
00:24:14,065 --> 00:24:17,105
I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred

636
00:24:17,105 --> 00:24:17,605
Isles.

637
00:24:18,305 --> 00:24:21,605
This podcast is sponsored by the National Physical

638
00:24:21,664 --> 00:24:22,164
Laboratory,

639
00:24:22,785 --> 00:24:25,445
which retains copyright on this episode.

640
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:27,779
NPL is The UK's

641
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,299
National Metrology

642
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:30,340
Institute.

643
00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:34,660
It provides cutting edge measurement science, engineering,

644
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:35,859
and technology

645
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:37,859
to underpin prosperity

646
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:40,660
and quality of life in The UK.

647
00:24:41,505 --> 00:24:44,884
NPL bridges the gap between research and industry

648
00:24:45,265 --> 00:24:48,244
by providing the measurement science, facilities,

649
00:24:48,704 --> 00:24:49,605
and expertise

650
00:24:50,144 --> 00:24:51,365
needed to accelerate

651
00:24:51,744 --> 00:24:52,244
innovation

652
00:24:52,704 --> 00:24:54,404
from lab to market

653
00:24:54,785 --> 00:24:56,404
across various sectors,

654
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:58,330
including quantum.