386 | Adulthood Bias and Piaget: Why Adults Misunderstand Children

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You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

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Hi,

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I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

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The Kid Counselor.

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This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

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a master class in child-centered play therapy

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and practical support and application for your

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work with children and their families.

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In today's episode,

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we are going to revisit Adulthood Bias.

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We haven't talked about that in a while.

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And it has been rearing its ugly head all over the place lately.

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And I want to actually give a little bit of

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data

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to support this because obviously,

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you know,

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coining a term that

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has never existed before,

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you know,

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one can just say,

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yeah,

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I made it up.

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But

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To expand

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on the notion.

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I think we go back to Piaget.

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So for those of you that learned about

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theorists and,

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and psychologists in your grad school programs,

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you know,

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you haven't heard that name in a while,

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probably,

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but

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Piaget and,

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and Piaget's research actually very much fundamentally

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supports the notion of Adulthood Bias.

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And so,

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if we want some science and some backing behind the term

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and the idea,

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I think that we need to talk through that a little bit.

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So,

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I want to kind of circle back to that.

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We haven't processed that together in quite a while.

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Before we get into that though,

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I just want to let you all know I am going to Japan this week.

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So,

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I'm very much excited about that.

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And we're gonna spend 2 weeks there.

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We have lots planned and just really looking forward to

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seeing a totally different country,

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different part of the world,

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and spending some time with my family.

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So,

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uh,

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we are still

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pre-recording podcasts and you still will get

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regular podcasts released while I'm gone.

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Just wanted to let you know that if I do not respond right away,

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if you email me,

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it is because we are traveling and I will be back in the States on April 8th.

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So,

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just know that if it takes me a while to respond,

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I'm not ignoring you.

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I'm just in Japan

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and 14 hours off of my normal schedule.

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All right.

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So,

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let's talk through Adulthood Bias just as a refresher.

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So,

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maybe for those of you that might be new to the podcast,

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welcome.

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Really glad you're here.

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And there's been a huge surge in listeners lately,

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y'all.

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For those of you that have been around the block with me all these,

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all these years and all this time,

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we had about like 500 new listeners just like really recently,

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massive spike of like 500.

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So

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that's really exciting.

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And there's so many other really exciting things going on.

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I'm almost at my millionth download.

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We're almost at the 400th episode.

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I mean,

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oh my gosh,

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there's just so much excitement about this podcast.

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Thank you all.

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Let me pause for a second.

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Where,

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where credit is due,

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I want to make sure I give it.

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Thank you all for

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supporting this podcast,

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for loving this podcast,

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for faithfully listening,

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for

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caring about me and my family and CCPT and

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thank you for the emails.

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Thank you for

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the gifts that you send to my house.

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Thank you for checking in on me when I sound sick

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and making sure that I'm eating and sleeping and all the concern that you have for me.

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Y'all seriously have just been such an incredible addition to my life

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that I did not foresee,

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however many years ago I started this crazy idea.

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So,

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Just wanted to say,

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um,

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for a moment,

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thank you all so much because this podcast doesn't exist without all of you

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and

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a million downloads and 400 episodes.

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I mean,

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podcasts die on the vine every day,

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and this is just growing and growing.

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And so,

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thank you for referring

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your friends and your colleagues and your co-workers to this podcast.

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Thank you for supporting the parenting podcast.

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I know so many of you have parents listened to the other podcast.

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Just a huge thank you and a hug from afar.

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So,

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let's talk through Adulthood Bias as a refresher.

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That's where this all began.

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If you're new to the podcast,

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you might not be familiar with the term.

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So,

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Adulthood Bias,

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term that we came up with that basically says,

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as an adult,

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you forget what it's like to be a child.

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And therefore,

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your interactions with children are biased.

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You forget what it's like to be emotional.

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You forget what it's like to live in the here and now.

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You forget what it's like to be experiential,

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and you forget

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what it is like to not have cognitive,

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rational

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reasoning skills.

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And let's add in verbal too,

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because kids aren't verbal either.

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So

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they are in a deficit.

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And Adulthood Bias

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is where

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we expect kids to come up and meet us on our level,

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and developmentally they're not able to.

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But we are capable of existing in both worlds.

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We can have cognitive,

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rational,

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reasonable thought,

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but then we can also go down and meet kids in their emotions.

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They,

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on the other hand,

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cannot come up and meet us in our rational,

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cognitive intellectual brains.

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So

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expecting a child

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to operate outside of their developmental capacity,

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first of all,

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is futile,

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but it certainly doesn't honor and respect.

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children and where they are and their development.

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So that's kind of the really fast brief overview of Adulthood Bias.

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But now let's talk about how we have support for this.

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If you look at Piaget's stages.

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It is clearly spelled out

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what children are capable of at what stages of development,

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and it's broken down into stages that are named,

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and you can even share this with parents.

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So you can say,

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you know,

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your child is 8.

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So this is what you need to know about the developmental level of children at 8.

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And we know that kids don't develop abstract reasoning until about 12 or 13.

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But

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we

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also don't often have anything else to add to the conversation.

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I know some of you know there's a brain surge

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development that takes place between about 8 and 9,

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so sometimes y'all will throw that out.

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But aside from those two little nuggets of wisdom,

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I don't know that we really have much to share with parents

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about what is age appropriate,

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what is developmentally appropriate,

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and not just because

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this is what your child should and shouldn't be doing at this stage.

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In light of Adulthood Bias,

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this is where this is relevant.

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Because parents that overexplain and overspeak and overtalk and lecture

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and expect their kids to answer questions and they want to have deep conversations,

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and they want to go over all of this like moral of the world,

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and they want,

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they're expecting stuff that the child is not capable of.

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It's Adulthood Bias.

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It's also Adulthood Bias

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when we don't realize

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this is gonna be something that seems very insignificant for me as an adult,

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but this is the most important significant thing

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in the world

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to my kid at this moment.

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When you tell a child,

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some of you are not parents,

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so hypothetically for you all,

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for those of you that are parents,

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when you tell a child,

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You need to stop playing outside.

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It's time to come in.

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And they are right in the middle of making the best

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mud pies that they've ever made in their entire creative,

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imaginative lives,

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and they have worms in them,

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and they have grass sticking out.

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And I mean,

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these mud pies are to die for.

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And you go out and go,

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OK,

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let's go.

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Time to come inside.

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That is devastating

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to a child.

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And when they go,

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no,

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no,

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no,

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please,

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and they argue and they start to get upset and they cry and they tantrum.

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Adulthood Bias says,

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this is not a big deal.

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This is not something to cry about.

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Why are you reacting like this?

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Why are you freaking out?

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That's Adulthood Bias,

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and it's certainly not honoring Piaget's stages.

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Because

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if we understand those and then we couple that with Adulthood Bias,

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it's really easy to go,

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oh yeah.

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We meet the child right where they are.

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Oh,

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you're really bummed that you

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need to come in.

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And then maybe we give an empowerment choice,

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or

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you really wish that you could keep

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playing,

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but you know you can play again tomorrow.

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You can make

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to die for mud pies in

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18 hours.

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But all of a sudden we're meeting the child where they are

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instead of expecting them to quote,

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tell me why you're crying.

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I just wanna keep playing,

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but that's not a reason to cry.

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It's absolutely a reason to cry to an emotional child

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that is here and now singularly focused.

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We forget what that's like.

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We think that they should be able to reason their way out of that.

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Oh,

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this isn't something to cry about.

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Don't be silly.

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No,

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it's very much something to cry about to the child

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that was right in the middle of making mud pies.

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And I would love to tell you,

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oh,

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he's,

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he's gonna

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crawl into a hole when he knows that I told this story,

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but

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You know,

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what happens when mom's on the airs.

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So,

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We're out on the dock today.

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00:08:57,419 --> 00:08:58,169
And

278
00:08:58,669 --> 00:09:00,250
Kane and Eric are both fishing.

279
00:09:00,669 --> 00:09:01,049
I,

280
00:09:01,190 --> 00:09:02,219
we only had two poles out there.

281
00:09:02,270 --> 00:09:02,440
I mean,

282
00:09:02,510 --> 00:09:03,469
I like to fish too,

283
00:09:03,580 --> 00:09:04,570
but I wasn't today.

284
00:09:05,190 --> 00:09:06,770
So we're out on the dot fishing

285
00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:07,450
and

286
00:09:08,539 --> 00:09:09,270
He turns around,

287
00:09:09,390 --> 00:09:10,150
sees that I'm behind him,

288
00:09:10,190 --> 00:09:10,510
and he goes,

289
00:09:10,609 --> 00:09:10,909
Watch out,

290
00:09:10,950 --> 00:09:11,750
I don't want to hit you.

291
00:09:12,450 --> 00:09:14,599
And I said thank you when he was gonna cast.

292
00:09:15,260 --> 00:09:15,659
I said,

293
00:09:15,780 --> 00:09:16,099
thank you.

294
00:09:16,179 --> 00:09:17,059
I appreciate that.

295
00:09:17,859 --> 00:09:19,059
And I said,

296
00:09:19,429 --> 00:09:19,510
Well,

297
00:09:19,630 --> 00:09:20,789
actually I don't mind if you hit me.

298
00:09:20,869 --> 00:09:22,500
I just don't want you to hook me.

299
00:09:22,830 --> 00:09:23,289
And he goes,

300
00:09:23,419 --> 00:09:24,349
It's a weedless hook,

301
00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:24,770
Mom.

302
00:09:25,650 --> 00:09:28,780
Which is a special way that you put the hook and the lure for those of you that are not

303
00:09:29,020 --> 00:09:29,609
into fishing.

304
00:09:30,489 --> 00:09:32,590
But it basically hides the hook,

305
00:09:32,669 --> 00:09:36,869
so it's really not likely to snag you or at least very minimally if it were to,

306
00:09:36,950 --> 00:09:37,109
you know,

307
00:09:37,270 --> 00:09:38,270
happen to hit you in the face,

308
00:09:38,330 --> 00:09:38,669
for example,

309
00:09:38,750 --> 00:09:41,929
like it's not going to hook your cheek like you've seen in fail videos or whatever.

310
00:09:42,929 --> 00:09:43,789
And so

311
00:09:44,450 --> 00:09:45,770
he's telling me it's a weedless hook,

312
00:09:45,780 --> 00:09:46,250
and I said,

313
00:09:46,359 --> 00:09:46,450
Oh,

314
00:09:46,530 --> 00:09:46,710
OK,

315
00:09:46,809 --> 00:09:48,330
well then go ahead and snag me.

316
00:09:48,369 --> 00:09:49,109
It doesn't matter.

317
00:09:49,570 --> 00:09:49,650
Well,

318
00:09:49,690 --> 00:09:50,289
the next thing you know,

319
00:09:50,369 --> 00:09:51,229
he reels in

320
00:09:51,489 --> 00:09:56,909
and he drags the weedless lure across the back of my arm and hooks

321
00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,869
the back of my arm with the barb on the hook,

322
00:10:00,330 --> 00:10:02,570
like it was sticking out enough that it punctured my skin.

323
00:10:04,369 --> 00:10:06,130
And I literally look at him

324
00:10:06,409 --> 00:10:07,049
and I'm like,

325
00:10:07,450 --> 00:10:08,609
you just hooked me.

326
00:10:08,729 --> 00:10:09,349
And he goes,

327
00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:10,119
Oh,

328
00:10:10,429 --> 00:10:10,789
sorry,

329
00:10:10,849 --> 00:10:11,909
I didn't think it would.

330
00:10:12,210 --> 00:10:13,130
And Eric goes,

331
00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:14,890
lack of abstract reasoning.

332
00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:15,450
And I go,

333
00:10:15,580 --> 00:10:16,729
he is 1615.

334
00:10:16,849 --> 00:10:18,409
He should have had it by now.

335
00:10:18,609 --> 00:10:20,390
And we had this whole laugh about

336
00:10:20,770 --> 00:10:23,010
somehow 3 years into abstract reasoning,

337
00:10:23,049 --> 00:10:24,510
it's still not fully there yet.

338
00:10:24,969 --> 00:10:25,359
And he's like,

339
00:10:25,469 --> 00:10:25,590
Sorry,

340
00:10:25,690 --> 00:10:25,929
mom.

341
00:10:26,049 --> 00:10:26,330
And I mean,

342
00:10:26,369 --> 00:10:27,169
it didn't really hurt,

343
00:10:27,250 --> 00:10:27,640
whatever,

344
00:10:27,719 --> 00:10:28,469
but

345
00:10:29,130 --> 00:10:29,909
I was just

346
00:10:30,169 --> 00:10:31,429
thinking about that going,

347
00:10:31,630 --> 00:10:32,809
even at 16.

348
00:10:33,969 --> 00:10:34,210
The,

349
00:10:34,289 --> 00:10:35,349
the rational,

350
00:10:35,570 --> 00:10:36,409
reasoning,

351
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:37,710
logical,

352
00:10:38,250 --> 00:10:41,349
intelligent kind of decision making is still not there.

353
00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:44,640
My son would never hurt me on purpose,

354
00:10:44,780 --> 00:10:45,219
never.

355
00:10:45,619 --> 00:10:47,010
He was not trying to scare me.

356
00:10:47,059 --> 00:10:48,359
He was not trying to hurt me.

357
00:10:48,859 --> 00:10:50,039
That was not his motivation.

358
00:10:50,299 --> 00:10:51,520
He literally just thought,

359
00:10:51,780 --> 00:10:54,570
I'm going to drag it across and see what it does because I don't think it'll hook her,

360
00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:55,260
but it did.

361
00:10:57,280 --> 00:10:57,780
So

362
00:10:58,119 --> 00:10:59,280
we have to recognize,

363
00:10:59,359 --> 00:11:01,200
even though there are averages,

364
00:11:01,289 --> 00:11:01,520
you know,

365
00:11:01,719 --> 00:11:04,340
most kids developed abstract reasoning around 13.

366
00:11:05,210 --> 00:11:07,479
The brain continues to develop until what age?

367
00:11:07,650 --> 00:11:08,469
Pop quiz?

368
00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:09,929
Fun pop quiz.

369
00:11:10,090 --> 00:11:11,159
Many people don't know this.

370
00:11:11,809 --> 00:11:12,750
25,

371
00:11:12,809 --> 00:11:14,489
I'm sure all of you screamed out to me.

372
00:11:15,380 --> 00:11:15,729
By the way,

373
00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,169
someone was on a call with me last week and she was like,

374
00:11:18,690 --> 00:11:20,070
I love your pop quizzes,

375
00:11:20,169 --> 00:11:23,549
and I always like scream the answer and then I wait to confirm that I'm right.

376
00:11:24,250 --> 00:11:25,489
So I know y'all are out there.

377
00:11:25,530 --> 00:11:26,489
I'm that person too.

378
00:11:27,429 --> 00:11:28,669
So if you said 25,

379
00:11:28,789 --> 00:11:28,989
you,

380
00:11:29,109 --> 00:11:29,690
you knew it.

381
00:11:31,219 --> 00:11:32,260
25 years old,

382
00:11:32,299 --> 00:11:32,859
y'all.

383
00:11:33,710 --> 00:11:35,289
So my 16-year-old son,

384
00:11:35,830 --> 00:11:37,929
we've still got 9 long years

385
00:11:38,270 --> 00:11:40,780
before that brain is fully developed and maybe at 25,

386
00:11:40,789 --> 00:11:41,289
he will

387
00:11:41,909 --> 00:11:44,299
not hook my arm with a weedless lure.

388
00:11:44,390 --> 00:11:44,950
I don't know.

389
00:11:45,729 --> 00:11:45,739
But

390
00:11:46,890 --> 00:11:48,150
we're looking at.

391
00:11:49,250 --> 00:11:50,900
Adulthood Bias

392
00:11:51,289 --> 00:11:53,429
where we have no clue.

393
00:11:54,330 --> 00:11:56,349
How to remember what it was like

394
00:11:56,729 --> 00:11:57,469
to be a child

395
00:11:58,119 --> 00:11:59,809
in that state of development.

396
00:12:00,799 --> 00:12:01,739
Emotional

397
00:12:01,919 --> 00:12:03,940
here and now experiential.

398
00:12:05,210 --> 00:12:07,150
Feeling driven beings.

399
00:12:08,169 --> 00:12:10,590
We can't expect them to operate like we do.

400
00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:13,119
So we meet them where they are.

401
00:12:13,539 --> 00:12:15,489
We have to help parents understand this.

402
00:12:15,739 --> 00:12:18,159
We have to be able to articulate this appropriately.

403
00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:22,479
Sometimes that's one of the most helpful things we can teach a parent.

404
00:12:23,469 --> 00:12:24,429
Kids aren't rational.

405
00:12:25,890 --> 00:12:27,000
Kids aren't rational.

406
00:12:27,330 --> 00:12:29,070
Let's talk about Adulthood Bias for a second.

407
00:12:30,630 --> 00:12:32,539
Your kid doesn't have abstract reasoning.

408
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:34,320
Let's talk about Adulthood Bias.

409
00:12:35,539 --> 00:12:39,080
I think Adulthood Bias is kicking in when you're describing what's going on.

410
00:12:39,169 --> 00:12:40,219
Let's talk about that.

411
00:12:41,369 --> 00:12:43,190
One of the most helpful things that we can teach.

412
00:12:44,239 --> 00:12:46,250
Because that's why CCPT exists.

413
00:12:47,130 --> 00:12:47,950
If kids were

414
00:12:48,169 --> 00:12:48,719
verbal,

415
00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:49,369
rational,

416
00:12:49,450 --> 00:12:49,929
logical,

417
00:12:50,090 --> 00:12:50,650
cognitive,

418
00:12:50,890 --> 00:12:52,169
talk therapy would work for them.

419
00:12:53,469 --> 00:12:54,890
CBT would work for them.

420
00:12:55,739 --> 00:12:56,349
Perish the thought.

421
00:12:56,469 --> 00:12:57,289
Lord help me.

422
00:12:57,830 --> 00:12:58,369
So,

423
00:12:58,789 --> 00:13:00,770
we're not going to

424
00:13:01,270 --> 00:13:03,539
be able to explain why CCPT

425
00:13:03,539 --> 00:13:06,250
is necessary and helpful and developmentally appropriate

426
00:13:06,750 --> 00:13:08,909
without also talking about Piaget stages,

427
00:13:09,349 --> 00:13:10,070
high-level view,

428
00:13:10,109 --> 00:13:10,390
y'all,

429
00:13:10,419 --> 00:13:11,469
don't dig deep on that.

430
00:13:11,580 --> 00:13:13,429
No one wants to hear that kind of theory and,

431
00:13:13,539 --> 00:13:15,150
and psychology and whatever as a parent.

432
00:13:15,859 --> 00:13:16,320
But

433
00:13:16,469 --> 00:13:18,109
we're going to incorporate that and we're going

434
00:13:18,109 --> 00:13:19,929
to bring in Adulthood Bias as a reference,

435
00:13:20,460 --> 00:13:22,190
and hopefully that plants some seeds.

436
00:13:22,429 --> 00:13:23,349
That's really helpful.

437
00:13:24,690 --> 00:13:25,239
So,

438
00:13:25,580 --> 00:13:27,119
I hope that that gives you some food for thought,

439
00:13:27,130 --> 00:13:27,989
if nothing else.

440
00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:28,750
And,

441
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:28,890
you know,

442
00:13:28,969 --> 00:13:29,250
if you,

443
00:13:29,330 --> 00:13:31,039
if you want a refresher on Adulthood Bias,

444
00:13:31,130 --> 00:13:33,669
go back and listen to the episode that I recorded a while back.

445
00:13:34,049 --> 00:13:35,510
It's one of

446
00:13:35,929 --> 00:13:37,070
what I think

447
00:13:37,650 --> 00:13:39,989
is kind of the front runner thought

448
00:13:40,650 --> 00:13:43,830
of how we help adults understand

449
00:13:44,369 --> 00:13:45,349
why there's a disconnect.

450
00:13:47,229 --> 00:13:49,130
That's why no one wants to work with children,

451
00:13:49,950 --> 00:13:50,369
because

452
00:13:50,530 --> 00:13:52,200
kids seem crazy to adults.

453
00:13:52,750 --> 00:13:55,070
It's just Adulthood Bias that makes you think that.

454
00:13:55,770 --> 00:13:57,250
And then when we have a term,

455
00:13:57,409 --> 00:13:59,890
it makes it easier to let that settle a little bit.

456
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:01,479
All right y'all,

457
00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:01,960
I love you.

458
00:14:02,030 --> 00:14:02,799
I hope you have a great week.

459
00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:03,669
We'll talk again soon.

460
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:04,080
Bye.

461
00:14:05,150 --> 00:14:08,940
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks.

462
00:14:09,190 --> 00:14:11,109
For more episodes and resources,

463
00:14:11,270 --> 00:14:16,030
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.