LHCb upgrade: CERN collaboration responds to UK funding cut

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Hello, and welcome to the Physics World Weekly

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podcast. I'm Hamish Johnston.

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In this episode, I'm in conversation with Tim

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Gershon,

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who is a particle physicist based at The

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UK's

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University of Warwick.

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Tim is a long time member of the

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LHCb

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collaboration,

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which operates an experiment on the Large Hadron

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Collider at CERN.

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And Tim is currently the collaboration's

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spokesperson elect.

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Earlier this year, the UK government announced that

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it would no longer fund

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its share of a crucial upgrade to LHCb.

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This came as a shock to Tim and

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his colleagues, and he explains

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that this major cut puts the experiment

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and UK particle physics in jeopardy.

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We also talk about some of LHCb's

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research highlights

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over the past year and look forward to

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what the experiment could do in the future.

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Hi, Tim. Welcome to the podcast.

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Hi, Hamish. I'm delighted to join you.

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So Tim, can we start off talking a

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bit about LHCb

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itself?

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So so can you describe the experiment, and

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what distinguishes

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it from other experiments

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on the LHC?

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Yeah. So LHCb

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is one of the four main experiments at

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CERN's Large Hadron Collider.

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But as you said, it's not the same

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as all the others. In fact, it has

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a unique design,

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and, that design gives it a unique physics

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program. So let me start with the design.

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LHCb is designed to be optimal for the

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study of particles that are produced in Large

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Hadron Collider collisions,

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that contain

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either the beauty or the charm quarks or

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in some cases both.

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Now because these quarks are relatively light compared

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to the energy of the proton proton collisions

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at the LHC,

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they're produced at small angles relative to the

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beam direction.

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So while the other detectors at the LHC

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tend to have a kind of cylindrical design

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surrounding the interaction point and looking at particles

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produced at large angles,

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LHEB, on the other hand, covers the forward

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region.

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So you can really see this difference if

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you just look at pictures of the detectors.

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So why is it,

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designed in that way? Well, that is to

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give it a physics program which allows us

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to study what we call flavor physics, really

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the the physics of how these different

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quarks behave. And in particular,

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one interesting question in flavor physics is to

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study matter antimatter asymmetries.

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And this is really important as we need

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to try to understand how the matter dominated

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universe evolved in the very early moments after

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the big bang.

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But also through studying rare decays of these,

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flavored particles,

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we can test the standard model through, precision

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measurements.

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So that's sort of the core physics program,

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but it turns out by serendipity that if

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you design a detector to be able to

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do these things really well, you're able to

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do a vast number of other things very

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well, in addition.

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And in particular,

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we have been able to discover huge numbers

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of new hadrons, including the so called

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exotic hadrons, pentaquarks and tetraquarks,

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and much, much more besides. In fact, so

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far, we have over 800 publications,

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which includes several major discoveries.

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I see. And Tim, you you are by

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no means the only British,

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physicist working on LHCb. Can you can you

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talk a bit about The UK's

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participation in the experiment?

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Yeah. So one of the the features of

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the way particle physics is organized in The

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UK is that we tend to focus our

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effort on fewer experiments compared to some other

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countries of similar

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size. So Germany, France, and Italy, for for

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example.

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So LHCb is a good example of that.

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The UK has a a really strong,

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involvement in LHCb because it's one of the

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experiments that we've chosen to focus on, and

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this has been extremely successful,

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allowing The UK to make a really strong

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impact in LHEB.

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That means leadership of the key detectors and

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computing projects as well as physics exploitation and

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indeed the overall collaboration.

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So the overall,

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leader of the collaboration is a position that

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we call the spokesperson

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in particle physics. And in LHCb, The UK

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has provided four of the eight spokespersons,

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which includes myself, recently elected to be the

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next spokesperson.

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So we're providing about, half of the overall

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leaders of the project, but from,

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about 18%

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of the the the members and authors,

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of the the collaboration.

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The the collaboration is a is a large

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one, I should say. LHCb is approaching 2,000

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members,

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from over a 100 institutes in currently 28

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countries.

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A good example of UK leadership in LHCb

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is that we initiated

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and developed plans for an upgrade to the

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experiment,

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which will allow LHCb to continue taking data

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until the end of LHC operations,

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the so called high luminosity

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era

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high luminosity

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era of the LHC.

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I see. And,

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before we we talk about,

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the sort of funding issue that's come up

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recently,

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this high loo luminosity

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upgrade, that's something that's being done to the

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LHC.

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It's something that's being done to

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the experiments

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on the LHC. It's it it really is

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a big deal, isn't it?

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Yeah. That's right. So the the main, upgrade

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of the accelerator,

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and of, two of the experiments of the

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main experiments at the LHC, the ATLAS and

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CMS experiments,

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that will take place in the next few

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years.

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So the LHC will continue taking data until

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halfway through 2026.

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And at the end, the June,

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we will have the final collisions of the

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LHC in its current incarnation,

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and start a long shutdown period during which

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the accelerator

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and ATLAS and CMS experiments are upgraded.

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We're expecting that we will start taking data

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again in 2030,

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and the next run period

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of the LHC so called run four,

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will continue until 2033

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when there will be another long shutdown, which

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will allow the other two experiments, including LHCb,

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to be upgraded.

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And and just for our listeners who are

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not, I suppose, you know, sort of up

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on the lingo of particle physics, the the

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high luminosity,

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essentially, that means that you're going to be

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colliding

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many more protons. So you're going to be

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you're going to have to your detector is

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going to have to process

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many more collisions.

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And,

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that means that you probably will see

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some rare interactions

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that you couldn't see before. Is that a

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sort of a fair

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assessment?

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Yeah. Absolutely. So, luminosity, I think most people

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will be familiar with the the word in

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the the context of how bright a light

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is. But in the context of particle colliders,

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it's, essentially how bright the beams are. So

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as we collide together,

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beams at higher luminosity, that means that we

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get more collisions

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and, a higher rate of of data to

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be processed.

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So that allows us, as you said, to

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see rarer processes that we're not able to

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see, but it also allows us to collect

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more data and, make measurements at higher precision.

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And that's really important in particle physics because,

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essentially,

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these particle colliders are microscopes

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to look at nature at the the smallest

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scales.

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And increasing the luminosity

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is like improving the resolution of your microscope.

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So it allows to see things at, even

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smaller scales compared to to what has been

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present to date. So there is a a

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very exciting,

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range of, of physics

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challenges that we believe will be addressed,

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by the high luminosity upgrade of the LHC

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and its experiments.

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Okay. Well, that that that's a great,

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description of LHCb. I think it really sets

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the scene

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for,

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talk talking about funding.

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And, I mean, I suppose you and your

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colleagues,

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over the past

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month or so perhaps have sort of received

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an unfortunate bombshell

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when it comes to funding. It appears that

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UK research and innovation,

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which pays for physics research in The UK,

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will not continue funding

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the high luminosity

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upgrade

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of LHCb.

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What is your current understanding

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of the funding

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situation?

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Yeah. So indeed, we've we've had this bad

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news. To explain it, I'm going to have

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to go a little back a little bit

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back into into the the history and and

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add a little bit more context to to

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to what you've described.

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So the the most relevant part of the

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history here is that in 2022,

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UKRI announced that it would invest in the

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LHCb upgrade with an allocation of almost £50,000,000

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from its infrastructure fund.

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Now the infrastructure fund at the time was

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a relatively new scheme that had been set

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up by UKRI intended to provide a long

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term stable source of funding for developments of

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new research,

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infrastructures, not only for physics, but across all

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of, UK, research.

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So this was a new way of allocating

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funding, whereas previously,

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UKRI distributes funds to the its research councils.

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And one of those,

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STFC,

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is the research council that supports particle physics

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as well as astronomy and and nuclear physics.

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We'll we'll we'll come back to that in

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a moment.

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Let me let me just mention also that

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the 50,000,000

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that was allocated from the infrastructure fund was

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to cover both capital,

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so that means the cost of the detector

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hardware, but also the staff to to build

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this upgraded detector.

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And the split between the two is around

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about $50.50.

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Now this very positive statement that we got

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in in 2022

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allowed UK scientists,

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including myself, to really take, leadership roles shaping

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the international project and and the design of

280
00:10:55,870 --> 00:10:56,610
the overall,

281
00:10:57,335 --> 00:10:58,634
international LHCb

282
00:10:59,014 --> 00:10:59,514
upgrade,

283
00:11:00,375 --> 00:11:03,495
and bringing our international partners on board. And

284
00:11:03,495 --> 00:11:05,415
this had actually been really successful. By the

285
00:11:05,415 --> 00:11:06,615
2025,

286
00:11:06,615 --> 00:11:09,254
we had all major international partners agreeing to

287
00:11:09,254 --> 00:11:11,779
contribute to this project, which meant that in

288
00:11:11,779 --> 00:11:14,440
addition to The UK capital investment, we had

289
00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:15,940
over a £100,000,000

290
00:11:15,940 --> 00:11:17,080
worth of,

291
00:11:18,419 --> 00:11:20,759
contributions from other countries essentially,

292
00:11:21,379 --> 00:11:23,459
more or less signed up, and ready to

293
00:11:23,459 --> 00:11:23,865
go.

294
00:11:24,345 --> 00:11:26,345
This is great news for The UK. This

295
00:11:26,345 --> 00:11:28,584
is a UK led project at The UK's

296
00:11:28,584 --> 00:11:31,565
lab for particle physics because remember that CERN

297
00:11:31,784 --> 00:11:34,184
is our lab that we operate together with

298
00:11:34,184 --> 00:11:35,164
with our partners.

299
00:11:36,230 --> 00:11:37,990
So things were looking pretty good.

300
00:11:38,550 --> 00:11:40,470
We were planning to move on to preparing

301
00:11:40,470 --> 00:11:43,430
detailed technical design reports on the subdetectors during

302
00:11:43,430 --> 00:11:44,389
2026.

303
00:11:44,389 --> 00:11:46,550
That's a a necessary step before we move

304
00:11:46,550 --> 00:11:48,809
on to the construction phase of the project.

305
00:11:50,144 --> 00:11:50,644
However,

306
00:11:51,264 --> 00:11:53,904
on the 12/19/2025,

307
00:11:54,065 --> 00:11:57,024
we received letters from the chief executive of

308
00:11:57,024 --> 00:11:57,524
UKRI,

309
00:11:57,985 --> 00:11:58,965
Sir Ian Chapman,

310
00:11:59,345 --> 00:12:01,825
stating that the infrastructure fund investment in the

311
00:12:01,825 --> 00:12:03,600
LHEB upgrade was,

312
00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,259
to use his words, no longer prioritized.

313
00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:09,839
This was a complete shock to us. Not

314
00:12:09,839 --> 00:12:12,339
only were we working on LHEB,

315
00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:13,459
not consulted,

316
00:12:14,639 --> 00:12:16,179
the advisory bodies

317
00:12:16,644 --> 00:12:17,225
for STFC,

318
00:12:18,245 --> 00:12:20,884
which had previously prioritized the project were not

319
00:12:20,884 --> 00:12:21,384
consulted,

320
00:12:21,845 --> 00:12:23,544
and even CERN management,

321
00:12:24,245 --> 00:12:26,024
have not, been consulted.

322
00:12:27,524 --> 00:12:28,004
So,

323
00:12:28,644 --> 00:12:31,225
we didn't even know that the the funding

324
00:12:31,365 --> 00:12:33,419
was at risk. We didn't know that any

325
00:12:33,419 --> 00:12:35,200
kind of review was going on.

326
00:12:35,580 --> 00:12:37,339
If we had have known, we would have

327
00:12:37,339 --> 00:12:39,360
still been very confident of continuation

328
00:12:40,059 --> 00:12:42,059
since the progress on the product has been

329
00:12:42,059 --> 00:12:44,845
so successful. And indeed, the case for investment

330
00:12:44,904 --> 00:12:47,065
is, if anything, even stronger than it was

331
00:12:47,065 --> 00:12:48,444
in 2022,

332
00:12:48,745 --> 00:12:50,444
when the funding was was awarded.

333
00:12:51,544 --> 00:12:53,384
So it's been a big shock, and we've

334
00:12:53,384 --> 00:12:55,625
been working to try to to understand the

335
00:12:55,625 --> 00:12:59,029
situation. Our current understanding of the situation well,

336
00:12:59,029 --> 00:13:01,029
there's many aspects to this, but I'll try

337
00:13:01,029 --> 00:13:02,730
to to keep it relatively brief.

338
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:05,190
So we know that the LHCb upgrade was

339
00:13:05,190 --> 00:13:08,230
one of four, infrastructure fund projects that have

340
00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:08,730
been

341
00:13:09,110 --> 00:13:09,610
deprioritized

342
00:13:10,309 --> 00:13:12,649
or to use a simpler word, cut.

343
00:13:13,725 --> 00:13:16,225
Three of those are STFC projects,

344
00:13:16,764 --> 00:13:18,924
and two of those are within the area

345
00:13:18,924 --> 00:13:21,485
of particle physics, astronomy, and nuclear physics, which

346
00:13:21,485 --> 00:13:24,285
we collectively refer to as PPAN. The other

347
00:13:24,285 --> 00:13:25,259
one, by the way,

348
00:13:25,660 --> 00:13:28,379
is for UK contribution to the electron ion

349
00:13:28,379 --> 00:13:31,200
collider, which is proposed, in in America.

350
00:13:31,899 --> 00:13:33,679
So it appears to have been an intentional

351
00:13:33,740 --> 00:13:36,540
choice by UKRI to reduce the number of

352
00:13:36,540 --> 00:13:37,679
STFC projects.

353
00:13:38,195 --> 00:13:39,794
And the reason for that seems to be

354
00:13:39,794 --> 00:13:42,615
concerns that STFC had taken on too much,

355
00:13:43,075 --> 00:13:46,534
although, projects were only approved together with UKRI.

356
00:13:46,995 --> 00:13:48,595
And in particular, it seems to be a

357
00:13:48,595 --> 00:13:50,934
concern that the running costs of new facilities,

358
00:13:51,700 --> 00:13:53,959
might be more than had previously been anticipated,

359
00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:56,419
and that could be, become unaffordable due to

360
00:13:56,419 --> 00:13:58,679
increased staff and electricity costs.

361
00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:02,179
These reasons, however, don't explain why it is

362
00:14:02,179 --> 00:14:04,980
that the PPAN projects in particular have been

363
00:14:04,980 --> 00:14:05,480
targeted

364
00:14:06,134 --> 00:14:07,975
and really make no sense at all as

365
00:14:07,975 --> 00:14:11,415
regards the LHB upgrade because perhaps uniquely amongst

366
00:14:11,415 --> 00:14:12,554
the, projects,

367
00:14:12,855 --> 00:14:14,934
this is one where The UK is already

368
00:14:14,934 --> 00:14:17,335
committed to paying the dominant part of the

369
00:14:17,335 --> 00:14:19,960
running costs. Cost because The UK is committed

370
00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:21,720
to paying the CERN subscription,

371
00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:24,519
which funds the operation of the accelerator,

372
00:14:25,620 --> 00:14:28,019
which is essentially what we need in order

373
00:14:28,019 --> 00:14:29,779
to to to be able to do the

374
00:14:29,779 --> 00:14:31,940
LHCb upgrade. In fact, it will be running

375
00:14:31,940 --> 00:14:32,440
anyway,

376
00:14:33,004 --> 00:14:34,865
for the, Atlas and CMS,

377
00:14:35,485 --> 00:14:35,985
experiments.

378
00:14:36,764 --> 00:14:39,904
Also, the LHCb upgrade project is on budget.

379
00:14:40,205 --> 00:14:43,404
So although we understand that there are concerns

380
00:14:43,404 --> 00:14:45,105
on how public money is invested

381
00:14:45,509 --> 00:14:47,850
and, funding is always tied,

382
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:51,350
the funding going into UKRI is at a

383
00:14:51,350 --> 00:14:52,250
record high,

384
00:14:52,710 --> 00:14:55,350
because the government recognizes the importance of research

385
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:56,090
and innovation,

386
00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:58,330
and how it contributes to the economy.

387
00:14:58,804 --> 00:15:00,485
So these cuts don't appear to have been

388
00:15:00,485 --> 00:15:03,684
motivated by purely financial reasons, and it's really

389
00:15:03,684 --> 00:15:05,845
very hard to to understand what the reason

390
00:15:05,845 --> 00:15:06,664
actually was.

391
00:15:07,204 --> 00:15:09,444
We've been told by UKRI that the decision

392
00:15:09,444 --> 00:15:11,524
is final, but we still hope that sense

393
00:15:11,524 --> 00:15:12,345
might prevail.

394
00:15:13,779 --> 00:15:16,419
And, Tim, The UK is a is a

395
00:15:16,419 --> 00:15:17,799
a big contributor

396
00:15:18,259 --> 00:15:18,919
to CERN,

397
00:15:20,179 --> 00:15:21,639
probably one of the biggest.

398
00:15:22,019 --> 00:15:23,960
So I'm guessing that

399
00:15:24,580 --> 00:15:27,480
that taking this money out of the LHCb

400
00:15:27,860 --> 00:15:28,360
upgrade

401
00:15:29,144 --> 00:15:29,644
budget

402
00:15:30,504 --> 00:15:31,704
is is is going to be a big

403
00:15:31,704 --> 00:15:32,204
problem,

404
00:15:32,584 --> 00:15:35,625
not just for for UK physicists, but also

405
00:15:35,625 --> 00:15:36,125
for

406
00:15:36,504 --> 00:15:37,804
any particle physicist,

407
00:15:38,664 --> 00:15:40,284
who works on the experiment.

408
00:15:40,824 --> 00:15:42,629
Have you have you been able to, you

409
00:15:42,629 --> 00:15:44,330
know, sort of talk to your,

410
00:15:45,589 --> 00:15:47,990
colleagues and and work out what this is

411
00:15:47,990 --> 00:15:50,789
going to mean for the LHCb upgrade? Is

412
00:15:50,789 --> 00:15:52,549
it is it just gonna have to not

413
00:15:52,549 --> 00:15:53,049
happen?

414
00:15:53,504 --> 00:15:54,004
So,

415
00:15:55,504 --> 00:15:57,904
so indeed so there's several, aspects to that.

416
00:15:57,904 --> 00:15:59,285
Let me, first of all,

417
00:15:59,904 --> 00:16:02,085
put it in context of the CERN subscription.

418
00:16:02,144 --> 00:16:03,904
So indeed that The UK is one of

419
00:16:03,904 --> 00:16:06,065
the largest contributors to CERN through the the

420
00:16:06,065 --> 00:16:06,884
CERN subscription,

421
00:16:07,409 --> 00:16:09,990
and that pays for the construction and operation

422
00:16:10,209 --> 00:16:12,629
of the accelerators, but it doesn't pay

423
00:16:13,009 --> 00:16:16,129
for, for the experiments apart from, essential support

424
00:16:16,129 --> 00:16:18,209
to the experiments which is provided by by

425
00:16:18,209 --> 00:16:21,164
the host lab. So experiments are funded by,

426
00:16:21,644 --> 00:16:23,964
member states and and other partners coming on

427
00:16:23,964 --> 00:16:24,945
board and agreeing,

428
00:16:25,404 --> 00:16:27,164
to make contributions to them, and that was

429
00:16:27,164 --> 00:16:29,024
the process that we were going from.

430
00:16:29,404 --> 00:16:31,664
And as you said, within LHCb,

431
00:16:32,044 --> 00:16:34,284
The UK is a major partner. And as

432
00:16:34,284 --> 00:16:36,784
I've described previously, the entire plans

433
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:39,399
for the LHB upgrade have been,

434
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,259
built essentially around, this UK contribution.

435
00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:47,340
So the infrastructure fund award was to cover

436
00:16:47,399 --> 00:16:48,860
both the capital contribution

437
00:16:49,345 --> 00:16:51,845
and for project staff to construct the detector.

438
00:16:52,304 --> 00:16:53,825
And it's important to stress that this is

439
00:16:53,825 --> 00:16:55,985
not money that is just sent as a

440
00:16:55,985 --> 00:16:58,065
check to to CERN. This is money that

441
00:16:58,065 --> 00:16:59,365
will be spent predominantly,

442
00:17:00,384 --> 00:17:02,325
via grants in The UK institutes.

443
00:17:02,970 --> 00:17:05,950
There's 11 universities in the REL National Laboratory

444
00:17:06,089 --> 00:17:08,029
that are involved, in in LHEB.

445
00:17:08,569 --> 00:17:10,329
And in addition, we would have been working

446
00:17:10,329 --> 00:17:12,589
with UK industry in order to to maximize

447
00:17:12,650 --> 00:17:14,650
the the benefit and constructing as much of

448
00:17:14,650 --> 00:17:16,490
the the detector as we would, here in

449
00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:17,069
The UK.

450
00:17:17,535 --> 00:17:20,335
The upgrade project would have provided opportunities for

451
00:17:20,335 --> 00:17:22,755
hundreds of students to be involved in developing

452
00:17:22,815 --> 00:17:25,695
cutting edge technologies, both in the the detector

453
00:17:25,695 --> 00:17:27,474
hardware and in in the software.

454
00:17:27,934 --> 00:17:30,015
And it's also worth noting that the majority

455
00:17:30,015 --> 00:17:32,335
of our students then take those skills on

456
00:17:32,335 --> 00:17:34,869
into into industry at great benefit to the

457
00:17:34,869 --> 00:17:35,369
economy.

458
00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:39,349
Specifically within The UK for, for the upgrade,

459
00:17:39,349 --> 00:17:41,589
we were interested in the development of detectors

460
00:17:41,589 --> 00:17:43,609
with ultrafast timing resolution,

461
00:17:44,150 --> 00:17:48,009
developing novel silicon detector systems with reduced material,

462
00:17:48,654 --> 00:17:49,875
and in managing

463
00:17:50,174 --> 00:17:50,914
high throughput,

464
00:17:51,375 --> 00:17:52,194
data processing.

465
00:17:52,815 --> 00:17:53,855
So without this,

466
00:17:54,414 --> 00:17:57,454
UK contribution, your question was, would the future

467
00:17:57,454 --> 00:17:59,154
of LHEB be in jeopardy?

468
00:17:59,694 --> 00:18:01,950
The answer to that, unfortunately, is is yes.

469
00:18:02,509 --> 00:18:05,309
The entire project is developed around The UK

470
00:18:05,309 --> 00:18:07,710
contribution. So if that's completely removed, the project

471
00:18:07,710 --> 00:18:08,929
will simply collapse.

472
00:18:09,869 --> 00:18:11,730
And you might wonder, well, surely,

473
00:18:12,109 --> 00:18:14,349
other countries could step in and and cover

474
00:18:14,349 --> 00:18:17,304
these essential roles. And with enough time, that

475
00:18:17,304 --> 00:18:18,284
would be possible.

476
00:18:18,984 --> 00:18:21,065
But as I mentioned earlier, our plan was

477
00:18:21,065 --> 00:18:23,865
to move to complete technical design reports this

478
00:18:23,865 --> 00:18:26,184
year and to start the construction phase next

479
00:18:26,184 --> 00:18:28,105
year. And we simply now do not have

480
00:18:28,105 --> 00:18:30,184
enough time to develop new plans that we

481
00:18:30,184 --> 00:18:32,159
would be able to to manage without that,

482
00:18:32,159 --> 00:18:34,079
and the time scale can't be changed because

483
00:18:34,079 --> 00:18:36,339
it's fixed by the the LHC schedule.

484
00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:37,859
So

485
00:18:38,399 --> 00:18:41,119
the full exploitation of the LHC is that

486
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:42,179
the highest priority

487
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,140
in particle physics in both the the European

488
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:46,640
strategy, which is recently,

489
00:18:47,144 --> 00:18:49,705
updated and in The UK roadmap. And the

490
00:18:49,705 --> 00:18:52,184
LHCb upgrade is needed to achieve that because

491
00:18:52,184 --> 00:18:55,404
of the uniqueness of the LHCb physics program.

492
00:18:55,545 --> 00:18:57,305
So it's really essential that we find a

493
00:18:57,305 --> 00:18:59,465
solution that allows The UK to continue to

494
00:18:59,465 --> 00:19:00,125
be involved.

495
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:02,759
And and so what does that mean for

496
00:19:02,759 --> 00:19:05,500
you and all your colleagues in The UK?

497
00:19:05,559 --> 00:19:08,200
You know, senior people like you right down

498
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:08,700
to,

499
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,740
graduate students. Does that I mean,

500
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:13,880
if you're not if The UK isn't coming

501
00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:15,819
up with the money, does that mean that

502
00:19:16,605 --> 00:19:19,085
LHCB is going to say, you know, sorry,

503
00:19:19,085 --> 00:19:19,585
Tim.

504
00:19:20,765 --> 00:19:21,345
The British

505
00:19:21,644 --> 00:19:22,144
can't

506
00:19:22,605 --> 00:19:24,765
work on the experiment anymore. Is it is

507
00:19:24,765 --> 00:19:25,744
it that harsh,

508
00:19:26,204 --> 00:19:28,384
or is there going to be a workaround?

509
00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:31,920
Well, it could be that harsh, and that's

510
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,420
what we're working still to try to understand.

511
00:19:34,799 --> 00:19:38,180
So even without funding from the UKRI infrastructure

512
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,299
fund, in principle, there could be funding through

513
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:41,859
STFC,

514
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,420
which has been the the sort of historic

515
00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:46,634
way that these types of projects have been

516
00:19:46,634 --> 00:19:47,134
funded.

517
00:19:47,835 --> 00:19:48,494
But, unfortunately,

518
00:19:49,035 --> 00:19:51,115
at the same time as the infrastructure fund

519
00:19:51,115 --> 00:19:52,174
project is cut,

520
00:19:52,555 --> 00:19:54,255
UKRI has asked STFC

521
00:19:54,555 --> 00:19:57,535
to to make 30% cuts to its PPAN

522
00:19:57,595 --> 00:19:59,700
program in order to deal with what it's

523
00:19:59,859 --> 00:20:01,159
calling cost pressures.

524
00:20:01,940 --> 00:20:05,220
Now, again, it's unclear exactly what is causing

525
00:20:05,220 --> 00:20:07,220
these cost pressures, but it seems to be

526
00:20:07,220 --> 00:20:10,039
mostly staff and electricity costs at the facilities.

527
00:20:11,059 --> 00:20:13,619
But whatever the reason is, the PPAN program

528
00:20:13,619 --> 00:20:16,255
is facing these cuts at the level of

529
00:20:16,255 --> 00:20:17,234
of 30%.

530
00:20:17,934 --> 00:20:20,914
And since the particle physics, astronomy, and nuclear

531
00:20:21,454 --> 00:20:23,714
projects tend to have long timescales,

532
00:20:24,734 --> 00:20:26,914
the majority of these funds are are committed

533
00:20:27,775 --> 00:20:29,295
in the the future, at least for the

534
00:20:29,295 --> 00:20:30,275
next few years,

535
00:20:31,009 --> 00:20:32,069
through international,

536
00:20:32,929 --> 00:20:33,429
agreements.

537
00:20:33,970 --> 00:20:35,349
So it is not straightforward,

538
00:20:36,210 --> 00:20:37,730
to make cuts at that scale. In fact,

539
00:20:37,730 --> 00:20:40,450
it's impossible to make cuts without reneging on

540
00:20:40,450 --> 00:20:41,829
those international commitments.

541
00:20:42,609 --> 00:20:44,505
So in this context, it's clearly going to

542
00:20:44,505 --> 00:20:45,724
be extremely challenging

543
00:20:46,105 --> 00:20:48,345
for SDFC to find a way to support

544
00:20:48,345 --> 00:20:49,005
the upgrade.

545
00:20:49,865 --> 00:20:52,525
That means that, yes, unfortunately, we are facing

546
00:20:52,984 --> 00:20:55,085
a potentially a nightmare scenario

547
00:20:55,545 --> 00:20:57,865
where the withdrawal of the infrastructure fund award

548
00:20:57,865 --> 00:21:00,630
results in the LHCb upgrade collapsing and hence

549
00:21:00,630 --> 00:21:02,809
the early termination of of LHCb

550
00:21:03,349 --> 00:21:05,910
because the current detector will only be able

551
00:21:05,910 --> 00:21:08,890
to operate up until 2033,

552
00:21:09,269 --> 00:21:10,230
when it is,

553
00:21:10,630 --> 00:21:12,390
expected it will reach its end of life

554
00:21:12,390 --> 00:21:13,849
due to the radiation damage.

555
00:21:14,615 --> 00:21:16,855
This would mean that the top priority of

556
00:21:16,855 --> 00:21:19,494
The UK and European particle physics roadmaps is

557
00:21:19,494 --> 00:21:22,315
not achieved, and it would be completely unprecedented

558
00:21:22,615 --> 00:21:24,535
for a CERN member state to cause the

559
00:21:24,535 --> 00:21:27,015
collapse of a CERN flagship experiment in this

560
00:21:27,015 --> 00:21:29,509
way. So clearly, this will be a disaster

561
00:21:29,809 --> 00:21:31,829
for UK science diplomacy.

562
00:21:32,849 --> 00:21:36,450
It's gonna also have potentially huge ramifications for

563
00:21:36,450 --> 00:21:38,609
particle physics in general, in particular in The

564
00:21:38,609 --> 00:21:41,169
UK, as the LHB upgrade is the only

565
00:21:41,169 --> 00:21:43,644
major construction project on the timescale of the

566
00:21:43,644 --> 00:21:44,705
mid twenty thirties.

567
00:21:45,404 --> 00:21:47,484
Without this project, it's gonna be really difficult

568
00:21:47,484 --> 00:21:49,904
to maintain the continuity of expertise

569
00:21:50,205 --> 00:21:52,865
in building and operating particle physics detectors.

570
00:21:53,244 --> 00:21:55,325
And once those skills are lost, they're very,

571
00:21:55,325 --> 00:21:56,625
very difficult to regain.

572
00:21:57,329 --> 00:22:00,230
More generally, if 30% cuts to PPAN

573
00:22:00,690 --> 00:22:01,750
really are enacted,

574
00:22:02,210 --> 00:22:03,809
this will be a major loss of income

575
00:22:03,809 --> 00:22:06,210
to university physics departments, which as we know

576
00:22:06,210 --> 00:22:09,429
are already struggling with many, many financial challenges.

577
00:22:09,890 --> 00:22:12,265
In fact, there was a report published by

578
00:22:12,265 --> 00:22:14,105
the Institute of Physics towards the end of

579
00:22:14,105 --> 00:22:16,505
last year that stated that a quarter of

580
00:22:16,505 --> 00:22:18,845
UK physics departments are at risk of closure,

581
00:22:18,985 --> 00:22:21,705
and that was before taking these potential cuts

582
00:22:21,705 --> 00:22:22,525
into consideration.

583
00:22:22,825 --> 00:22:25,384
Clearly, those can only make the situation even

584
00:22:25,384 --> 00:22:25,884
worse.

585
00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:28,559
So, Tim, are you and your colleagues,

586
00:22:29,259 --> 00:22:30,720
I'm guessing you're organizing

587
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:32,880
to fight this?

588
00:22:33,339 --> 00:22:33,659
What,

589
00:22:34,220 --> 00:22:35,980
I mean, can you reveal any of your

590
00:22:35,980 --> 00:22:38,779
plans to to try to get this decision

591
00:22:38,779 --> 00:22:41,855
reversed or or changed or, you know, find

592
00:22:41,855 --> 00:22:42,914
some sort of funding?

593
00:22:45,294 --> 00:22:48,015
Yeah. I would, prefer to say that rather

594
00:22:48,015 --> 00:22:50,835
than than fighting, we're trying to work together

595
00:22:51,054 --> 00:22:53,775
with STFC and UKRI in order to to

596
00:22:53,775 --> 00:22:55,869
find a solution. Because I we want to

597
00:22:55,869 --> 00:22:56,369
avoid

598
00:22:56,990 --> 00:22:59,730
the potentially catastrophic outcomes that I've mentioned,

599
00:23:00,190 --> 00:23:02,130
and we don't believe that these are intentional

600
00:23:02,349 --> 00:23:05,329
consequences of decisions being made at UKRI.

601
00:23:06,109 --> 00:23:08,750
So this means not only within LHCb, but

602
00:23:08,750 --> 00:23:11,125
in the the the particle physics and astronomy

603
00:23:11,125 --> 00:23:13,465
and nuclear physics communities more more broadly.

604
00:23:14,244 --> 00:23:15,765
Now, of course, we we hope that the

605
00:23:15,765 --> 00:23:18,164
the cuts, specifically, that the cut of the

606
00:23:18,164 --> 00:23:18,664
LHCb

607
00:23:18,965 --> 00:23:20,644
upgrade, we hope that those cuts can be

608
00:23:20,644 --> 00:23:21,144
reversed.

609
00:23:22,420 --> 00:23:24,580
And again, it really seems impossible to believe

610
00:23:24,580 --> 00:23:26,420
that that this could be an intended consequence

611
00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:28,180
of decisions that have been made. But if

612
00:23:28,180 --> 00:23:29,940
it turns out that the solution is is

613
00:23:29,940 --> 00:23:31,860
something different to that, then then so be

614
00:23:31,860 --> 00:23:33,720
it. So long as we can still find

615
00:23:34,295 --> 00:23:35,914
a way that we can continue

616
00:23:36,295 --> 00:23:37,434
with with with this project,

617
00:23:38,054 --> 00:23:38,795
and avoid,

618
00:23:39,174 --> 00:23:40,954
all of the the the negative,

619
00:23:42,694 --> 00:23:45,194
possible outcomes which I've discussed previously.

620
00:23:46,230 --> 00:23:48,069
In fact, you know, there's reasons for for

621
00:23:48,069 --> 00:23:50,630
optimism. All of the the the chief executive

622
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:53,349
of UKRI, Soreen Chapman, as I mentioned earlier,

623
00:23:53,349 --> 00:23:55,829
but also the science minister, Claude Valence, and

624
00:23:55,829 --> 00:23:57,750
indeed the secretary of state for science and

625
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:58,809
innovation and technology,

626
00:23:59,255 --> 00:24:01,174
which is Liz Kendall, all of them have

627
00:24:01,174 --> 00:24:04,055
separately stated that curiosity driven science should be

628
00:24:04,055 --> 00:24:05,434
protected in particular

629
00:24:05,735 --> 00:24:07,835
in fields where we are world leading.

630
00:24:08,934 --> 00:24:11,174
That sounds like a a very good ruling

631
00:24:11,174 --> 00:24:13,414
principle to me. I would hope everybody would

632
00:24:13,414 --> 00:24:16,299
agree with that. And clearly, LHCb is a

633
00:24:16,299 --> 00:24:20,400
great example of world leading curiosity driven science

634
00:24:20,779 --> 00:24:23,440
being led within The UK. It's a genuine

635
00:24:23,579 --> 00:24:25,119
UK science success story.

636
00:24:25,980 --> 00:24:28,924
We want to make sure that, LHEB in

637
00:24:28,924 --> 00:24:31,884
particular, but PPAM Science also more generally, do

638
00:24:31,884 --> 00:24:33,964
not become an exception to this rule that

639
00:24:33,964 --> 00:24:37,005
The UK wants to remain world leading in

640
00:24:37,005 --> 00:24:38,384
curiosity driven science.

641
00:24:39,164 --> 00:24:41,085
And, Tim, I wanna end this interview on

642
00:24:41,085 --> 00:24:42,305
a positive note.

643
00:24:42,890 --> 00:24:44,669
I know here at Physics World,

644
00:24:45,210 --> 00:24:46,669
we've covered a lot

645
00:24:47,450 --> 00:24:49,230
of papers that LHCb

646
00:24:49,690 --> 00:24:52,429
has published over the past decade or so.

647
00:24:53,049 --> 00:24:53,789
In particular,

648
00:24:56,095 --> 00:24:57,695
a a lot of work has come out

649
00:24:57,695 --> 00:24:59,154
of the experiment regarding

650
00:24:59,775 --> 00:25:02,255
exotic hadrons. I think you you you mentioned

651
00:25:02,255 --> 00:25:02,755
them,

652
00:25:03,215 --> 00:25:05,555
earlier. Can you just give us a flavor

653
00:25:05,934 --> 00:25:06,335
of,

654
00:25:07,055 --> 00:25:08,975
of some of that research and and some

655
00:25:08,975 --> 00:25:09,539
of the

656
00:25:09,940 --> 00:25:12,820
exotic particles that you've found. These are these

657
00:25:12,820 --> 00:25:15,619
are very heavy particles with more than three

658
00:25:15,619 --> 00:25:16,840
quarks, aren't they?

659
00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:19,380
Yeah. That's right. So in fact, if I

660
00:25:19,380 --> 00:25:20,980
can, let me first of all give you

661
00:25:20,980 --> 00:25:22,820
some of examples of some of the the

662
00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:25,785
research highlights that came out during 2025.

663
00:25:26,565 --> 00:25:28,404
And then perhaps after that, we can talk

664
00:25:28,404 --> 00:25:30,005
a bit about what what could come in

665
00:25:30,005 --> 00:25:31,384
the future with the upgraded

666
00:25:31,684 --> 00:25:33,144
LHEB because the,

667
00:25:33,684 --> 00:25:36,404
part about exotic hadrons is is particularly relevant

668
00:25:36,404 --> 00:25:37,465
for for the upgrade.

669
00:25:38,089 --> 00:25:40,170
But during 2025, we had a number of

670
00:25:40,170 --> 00:25:41,950
of really major, results.

671
00:25:42,250 --> 00:25:44,269
So one was the first discovery

672
00:25:44,570 --> 00:25:47,470
of CP violation in in baryon decays.

673
00:25:48,089 --> 00:25:49,230
So CP violation

674
00:25:49,529 --> 00:25:51,390
is, essentially asymmetry

675
00:25:51,690 --> 00:25:52,190
between

676
00:25:52,525 --> 00:25:55,164
matter and antimatter. And as I mentioned, right

677
00:25:55,164 --> 00:25:57,025
near the start of our conversation,

678
00:25:57,484 --> 00:25:59,804
that's something which is really important to to

679
00:25:59,804 --> 00:26:00,304
understand,

680
00:26:00,684 --> 00:26:03,005
the universe where the the universe, which is

681
00:26:03,005 --> 00:26:05,724
essentially made up, predominantly most of the mass

682
00:26:05,724 --> 00:26:07,904
in the universe is is from from baryons,

683
00:26:08,349 --> 00:26:10,750
at least, of the visible matter. We're not

684
00:26:10,750 --> 00:26:12,509
talking about dark matter, but for the time

685
00:26:12,509 --> 00:26:13,009
being.

686
00:26:14,829 --> 00:26:17,490
And there is an asymmetry that we see

687
00:26:17,549 --> 00:26:19,490
only baryons and not antibaryons

688
00:26:20,190 --> 00:26:21,169
naturally occurring,

689
00:26:21,549 --> 00:26:22,454
in in the universe.

690
00:26:23,414 --> 00:26:25,654
So CP violation is essential to this, but

691
00:26:25,654 --> 00:26:28,615
all previous observations of CP violation going back

692
00:26:28,615 --> 00:26:31,174
to the the first discovery in 1964

693
00:26:31,174 --> 00:26:32,634
had involved mesons

694
00:26:33,095 --> 00:26:35,654
rather than baryons. So mesons are particles that

695
00:26:35,654 --> 00:26:36,934
are made up of a quark and an

696
00:26:36,934 --> 00:26:37,434
antiquark,

697
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:41,509
whereas baryons involve three quarks and antibaryons, three

698
00:26:41,509 --> 00:26:42,009
antiquarks.

699
00:26:43,349 --> 00:26:45,429
So since the asymmetry of the universe is

700
00:26:45,429 --> 00:26:47,750
in baryons, there should also be CP violation

701
00:26:47,750 --> 00:26:49,269
in baryons. And now we've seen this for

702
00:26:49,269 --> 00:26:50,630
the first time. And in fact, this is

703
00:26:50,630 --> 00:26:53,065
something a good example of the uniqueness of

704
00:26:53,065 --> 00:26:55,384
LHEB. This is the only experiment that that

705
00:26:55,384 --> 00:26:56,845
can make those types of measurements.

706
00:26:57,784 --> 00:26:59,865
Another highlight is a result which came out

707
00:26:59,865 --> 00:27:01,304
towards the end of last year. It was

708
00:27:01,304 --> 00:27:04,904
an updated study of, a particularly interesting rare

709
00:27:04,904 --> 00:27:05,804
decay process

710
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,980
of a a neutral beam meson turning into

711
00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:09,539
a,

712
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:10,740
an excited,

713
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,460
kaon and, mu plus, mu minus.

714
00:27:13,759 --> 00:27:15,359
Now that may sound like a a lot

715
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,519
of particles, but this is a particularly interesting

716
00:27:17,519 --> 00:27:19,839
process to test the standard model because there

717
00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:20,500
are predictions

718
00:27:21,045 --> 00:27:21,545
for,

719
00:27:21,924 --> 00:27:24,825
the both the rates, but also the angular

720
00:27:24,965 --> 00:27:26,904
distributions of the decay products.

721
00:27:27,605 --> 00:27:30,005
And previous measurements had indicated that what we're

722
00:27:30,005 --> 00:27:33,125
actually measuring was not consistent with the standard

723
00:27:33,125 --> 00:27:33,900
model predictions.

724
00:27:34,299 --> 00:27:36,700
So it was really highly anticipated to update

725
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,200
those measurements with, the data sample,

726
00:27:39,660 --> 00:27:42,160
that that we have, available until now.

727
00:27:42,539 --> 00:27:44,619
So we now have those new more precise

728
00:27:44,619 --> 00:27:46,785
measurements, and they confirm what we've seen before.

729
00:27:46,785 --> 00:27:46,825
There still seems to be this very intriguing

730
00:27:46,825 --> 00:27:47,339
tension between our measurements and the standard model

731
00:27:47,339 --> 00:27:47,839
predictions,

732
00:27:50,434 --> 00:27:52,134
intriguing tension between our measurements

733
00:27:52,434 --> 00:27:53,875
and the standard model predictions, but we still

734
00:27:53,875 --> 00:27:54,775
do need more data to

735
00:27:55,075 --> 00:27:56,434
be sure if the effect is due to

736
00:27:56,434 --> 00:27:59,795
something beyond the standard model and not from

737
00:27:59,795 --> 00:28:02,434
larger than expected corrections to the the standard

738
00:28:02,434 --> 00:28:03,654
model predictions. So

739
00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:06,140
So these are among the the results that

740
00:28:06,140 --> 00:28:07,980
led to perhaps the third and last highlight

741
00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:10,000
that I'd I'd I'd draw out,

742
00:28:10,380 --> 00:28:12,700
which was the award of the 2025

743
00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:14,480
breakthrough prize, in fundamental

744
00:28:14,779 --> 00:28:15,279
physics,

745
00:28:15,660 --> 00:28:17,740
which was this is sometimes called the the

746
00:28:17,740 --> 00:28:18,880
Oscars of science,

747
00:28:19,304 --> 00:28:22,204
and this prize was awarded to LHCb together,

748
00:28:22,585 --> 00:28:25,004
with the other three large LHC experiment,

749
00:28:25,464 --> 00:28:25,964
collaborations

750
00:28:26,984 --> 00:28:27,724
in recognition,

751
00:28:28,504 --> 00:28:31,384
of what had been achieved in, with the

752
00:28:31,384 --> 00:28:33,319
exploiting the data collected

753
00:28:33,619 --> 00:28:35,399
in in the first two runs

754
00:28:35,859 --> 00:28:37,319
of, of the LHC.

755
00:28:37,940 --> 00:28:40,119
But if I just add one more thing,

756
00:28:41,059 --> 00:28:43,059
we have also been taking data in the

757
00:28:43,059 --> 00:28:45,460
third run. And so perhaps even the most

758
00:28:45,460 --> 00:28:47,884
important news last year has been how successful

759
00:28:47,884 --> 00:28:50,284
this data taking has been, in the third

760
00:28:50,284 --> 00:28:52,204
run. Means the sample size that we have

761
00:28:52,204 --> 00:28:54,845
now and becoming available for analysis is at

762
00:28:54,845 --> 00:28:57,005
least a factor of four larger than in

763
00:28:57,005 --> 00:28:59,744
our publications to date. And in many processes,

764
00:28:59,804 --> 00:29:01,740
it's even a much larger factor.

765
00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:03,900
It's gonna take a while to convert the

766
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:06,220
data into into measurements, in particular when we're

767
00:29:06,220 --> 00:29:08,299
talking about really precise measurements and we have

768
00:29:08,299 --> 00:29:08,960
to control

769
00:29:09,339 --> 00:29:10,480
systematic uncertainties,

770
00:29:11,740 --> 00:29:14,460
very, very carefully. But first results are starting

771
00:29:14,460 --> 00:29:15,994
to come through the pipeline, so you can

772
00:29:15,994 --> 00:29:18,075
look forward to many exciting new results coming

773
00:29:18,075 --> 00:29:19,695
later in 2026.

774
00:29:20,475 --> 00:29:22,955
And the future, Tim, what, what can we

775
00:29:22,955 --> 00:29:26,494
look look forward to for an upgraded LHCB?

776
00:29:28,119 --> 00:29:30,039
Yeah. So it's worth noting that even with

777
00:29:30,039 --> 00:29:32,200
this amazing performance and how well we've done

778
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,179
in data taking in 2024 and 2025,

779
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,799
we've not yet collected even 10% of the

780
00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:40,059
total sample that we'll be able to accumulate

781
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:41,625
with the upgraded detector.

782
00:29:42,184 --> 00:29:44,585
So this larger data sample will not only

783
00:29:44,585 --> 00:29:46,984
allow us to advance the precision frontier, it

784
00:29:46,984 --> 00:29:48,585
means that we'll be able to do various

785
00:29:48,585 --> 00:29:50,285
things which are currently impossible.

786
00:29:50,904 --> 00:29:52,984
So let's bring this back to talk about

787
00:29:52,984 --> 00:29:55,625
the exotic hadrons, that that we talked about

788
00:29:55,625 --> 00:29:58,320
before. So we've discovered a number of exotic

789
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,580
hadrons, so called tetraquarks and pentaquarks,

790
00:30:01,119 --> 00:30:04,080
but so far these contain all contain charm

791
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,019
quarks and antiquarks.

792
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:09,680
With the LHCb upgrade, we expect to be

793
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,804
able to see the corresponding states that contain

794
00:30:11,804 --> 00:30:14,924
beauty quarks, and this will provide unique understanding

795
00:30:14,924 --> 00:30:17,164
of the binding force in in these particles.

796
00:30:17,164 --> 00:30:19,005
Being able to compare the states that we

797
00:30:19,005 --> 00:30:21,724
observe with charm to those with beauty will

798
00:30:21,724 --> 00:30:24,444
really give us unique insight into into what

799
00:30:24,444 --> 00:30:26,169
is going on with these exotic hadrons.

800
00:30:27,029 --> 00:30:28,710
Another great example of what we'll be able

801
00:30:28,710 --> 00:30:30,390
to do with the upgraded LHCb is that

802
00:30:30,390 --> 00:30:32,309
we can actually bring together these two main

803
00:30:32,309 --> 00:30:34,789
elements of our physics program. I've talked about

804
00:30:34,789 --> 00:30:37,349
CP violation and rare decays, and we'll be

805
00:30:37,349 --> 00:30:40,390
able to make CP violation measurements with rare

806
00:30:40,390 --> 00:30:40,890
decays.

807
00:30:41,465 --> 00:30:43,384
So one of the main highlights of the

808
00:30:43,384 --> 00:30:45,325
first phase of LHB was the discovery

809
00:30:45,785 --> 00:30:48,125
of the the decay of a a BS

810
00:30:48,345 --> 00:30:49,884
meson into two muons.

811
00:30:50,265 --> 00:30:52,585
This is particularly interesting because the final state

812
00:30:52,585 --> 00:30:55,130
only contains muons, but it's a very, very

813
00:30:55,130 --> 00:30:57,450
rare process occurs only a few times in

814
00:30:57,450 --> 00:30:59,390
every billion b s meson decays.

815
00:31:00,009 --> 00:31:02,490
Nonetheless, with the upgraded LHCb, we'll have a

816
00:31:02,490 --> 00:31:05,210
large enough data sample that will have thousands

817
00:31:05,210 --> 00:31:06,890
of these decays, and that will be enough

818
00:31:06,890 --> 00:31:09,369
to make CP violation measurements providing a new

819
00:31:09,369 --> 00:31:11,335
way to test the standard model.

820
00:31:12,275 --> 00:31:13,795
And if I can give just one more

821
00:31:13,795 --> 00:31:15,894
example Oh, go on. Go ahead.

822
00:31:16,674 --> 00:31:19,715
So LHEB is the is the, only experiment

823
00:31:19,715 --> 00:31:23,075
which can study CP violation in charm meson

824
00:31:23,075 --> 00:31:24,295
decays. This is another

825
00:31:25,059 --> 00:31:26,980
really huge result which has come out of

826
00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:30,259
LHEB, the unexpected discovery of CP violation in

827
00:31:30,259 --> 00:31:32,660
charm, which occurs at a rate that seems

828
00:31:32,660 --> 00:31:35,240
to be inconsistent with the standard model expectation.

829
00:31:36,019 --> 00:31:38,255
But, again, to know if this is really

830
00:31:38,315 --> 00:31:40,315
due to something beyond the standard model or

831
00:31:40,315 --> 00:31:42,095
due to larger than expected corrections,

832
00:31:42,394 --> 00:31:45,115
we need more data and more independent measurements

833
00:31:45,115 --> 00:31:46,954
to be able to confirm that. And that's

834
00:31:46,954 --> 00:31:49,195
something that will only be possible with the

835
00:31:49,195 --> 00:31:52,099
LHEB upgrade. In fact, in the current global

836
00:31:52,099 --> 00:31:54,659
planning of particle physics, there's no other experiment

837
00:31:54,659 --> 00:31:56,099
that will be able to do this for

838
00:31:56,099 --> 00:31:58,259
at least another fifty years. So you see

839
00:31:58,259 --> 00:32:00,259
the LHCb upgrade really is a once in

840
00:32:00,259 --> 00:32:03,220
a lifetime opportunity to uncover new aspects of

841
00:32:03,220 --> 00:32:04,125
the laws of nature.

842
00:32:04,684 --> 00:32:06,525
We are determined that we're not gonna let

843
00:32:06,525 --> 00:32:08,525
this opportunity slip, and that's why it's so

844
00:32:08,525 --> 00:32:10,605
important that we find a solution to the

845
00:32:10,605 --> 00:32:13,265
crisis that's been caused by the UKRI decision.

846
00:32:14,684 --> 00:32:17,079
Well, thanks, Tim. Thanks so much for for

847
00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:19,500
speaking to Physics World about this and explaining

848
00:32:19,559 --> 00:32:21,879
the situation. And I'm sure within the physics

849
00:32:21,879 --> 00:32:25,159
community, people are are behind LHCb in The

850
00:32:25,159 --> 00:32:27,399
UK, and we hope that you can come

851
00:32:27,399 --> 00:32:28,059
up with

852
00:32:28,679 --> 00:32:31,259
some sort of resolution to move things forward.

853
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:31,964
So,

854
00:32:32,765 --> 00:32:34,144
best wishes with that.

855
00:32:35,484 --> 00:32:37,404
Thank thank you very much, Hamish. That's much

856
00:32:37,404 --> 00:32:39,164
appreciated, and I hope that I'll be able

857
00:32:39,164 --> 00:32:41,105
to come back with some good news sometime

858
00:32:41,164 --> 00:32:41,664
soon.

859
00:32:42,284 --> 00:32:43,825
That's great. Thank you, Tim.

860
00:32:51,019 --> 00:32:52,779
I'm afraid that's all the time we have

861
00:32:52,779 --> 00:32:55,579
for this week's podcast. Thanks to Tim Gershen

862
00:32:55,579 --> 00:32:57,440
for an update on LHCb.

863
00:32:58,745 --> 00:33:01,785
I'm Hamish Johnston, and our producer is Fred

864
00:33:01,785 --> 00:33:02,285
Isles.

865
00:33:02,745 --> 00:33:05,065
The theme music in this episode is called

866
00:33:05,065 --> 00:33:08,265
one three seven, and it was composed and

867
00:33:08,265 --> 00:33:09,884
performed by the physicist

868
00:33:10,505 --> 00:33:11,404
Philip Moriarty.