AvTalk Episode 316: The helicopter in the Hudson

AVT 316 Transcript
EPISODE 316
[EPISODE]
[0:00:07] IP: Hello and welcome to episode 316 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, once again,
here, as always with –
[0:00:17] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Back on my own microphone, where you might be able to hear
me a little bit better. We have not yet perfected our studio setup when we are in the same room
at the same time. It's more difficult than you would think.
[0:00:29] IP: It is a bit more – especially, I think, I was really thrown off my game by the fact that
the microphone stand tried to kill me last week.
[0:00:35] JR: It did. I saw it.
[0:00:36] IP: I've had a talking, too, with the mic stand now and it's much better.
[0:00:39] JR: You have an understanding.
[0:00:41] IP: We've reached an understanding, yes. I'm starting to look less swollen and bloody,
which is always a good thing to aim for.
[0:00:49] JR: That's good. I'm proud of you.
[0:00:50] IP: But it was nice to see you in person.
[0:00:53] JR: Same.
[0:00:54] IP: Regular listeners of the podcast will know that we're not often in the same room.
We'll see each other again next month, which is unusual. Welcome. I hope you had a nice trip
back home –
© 2025 AvTalk 1
AVT 316 Transcript
[0:01:05] JR: I did. Chicago.
[0:01:07] IP: - from this fair city.
[0:01:07] JR: Yeah, Chicago is great. The weather, as soon as our conference ended, it turned
out to be amazing. Probably one of the nicest days you've had in a very long time. I'm thankful
for that. I'm thankful that it only took us 40 minutes of taxiing to get out of O’Hare. So, that was
nice. Yeah. Overall, really good trip. Really simple flying to, which is even icing on the cake.
[0:01:28] IP: There you go. As is the tradition, the universal obligation somehow, aviation news
broke just as we finished recording the podcast. I think this actually happened while we were
recording last week. A Bell 206L-4, a LongRanger IV, a twin-blade rotor helicopter crashed into
the Hudson River near Hoboken, New Jersey. This was a New York based tourist helicopter.
From the visual evidence that we've seen of the crash, the helicopter suffered a midair
separation, where the rotor and rotor assembly became one piece, the tail boom became a
second piece and the fuselage of the helicopter became a third piece. All three of those pieces
have crashed into the river.
The NTSB is of course investigating, but there are theories abounding about what happened.
We don't know anything yet. Thankfully, all of the parts, relevant parts of the helicopter have
been recovered by divers and have been transferred to a secure location by the NTSB, so that
they can continue the investigation. However, the actions by the FAA to date have been swift
and – not the FAA's actions, but the actions of the helicopter charter company have been rather
alarming and the FAA has taken action.
After, and I mean right after, 16 minutes after, the director of operations for the New York
helicopter charter company spoke with FAA and NTSB investigators. That person was fired by
the CEO. Jason Costello was the director of operations on April 13th after the crash, spoke with
investigators from the FAA and the NTSB. Then, CEO Michael Roth fired that person. The FAA,
go ahead Jason.
[0:03:45] JR: I'm just sighing deeply –
© 2025 AvTalk 2
AVT 316 Transcript
[0:03:47] IP: Fair enough.
[0:03:47] JR: - this whole situation. I have nothing in substance to add, but continue.
[0:03:52] IP: The FAA then issued an emergency order grounding the charter operator and
revoking their air operator’s certificate, as well as beginning a comprehensive review called a
certificate holder valuation program. We've heard about that in the past in some other
circumstances, which ended without any findings, or anything like that. However, this particular
investigation and this particular emergency order comes out of the fact that the FAA is saying
that because this person has been fired, they are no longer qualified to operate under Part 135
guidelines, which says that you need to have a qualified director of operations to maintain your
certificate.
After the initial director of operation’s interview, that person agreed that the operator would
voluntarily suspend operations, until the investigation was complete, which is not outside the
realm of things that have happened in the past. There have been investigations into specific
aircraft, or specific operators in which those operators, or aircraft operators of aircraft have
voluntarily ceased operations, while the investigation was going on, or till the investigation
reached a point where they could say, okay, it's not this particular aircraft. It was a particular set
of circumstances. Or, it's not this operator. It was a particular set of circumstances within this
particular aircraft. I mean, obviously, we don't know exactly what happened for this person to be
fired, but it certainly doesn't send a good message.
[0:05:36] JR: No.
[0:05:37] IP: That they would be retaliated for making a safety –
[0:05:39] JR: Yeah, for the FAA to also note that it was exactly 16 minutes. There's not a
rounding here. It's not, oh, you know, briefly after. It was exactly 16 minutes after making this
decision, the director of operations was fired. Then the FAA goes on to say, “Continued
operations of NY Helicopters poses an ongoing and unacceptable risk to aviation safety based
on that risk, blah, blah, blah.” Their AOC was revoked. It's funny, when the FAA and the
government decides to act swiftly, versus let issues linger on for years and years. In this case, I
© 2025 AvTalk 3
AVT 316 Transcript
guess, it's on the good side that the FAA acted very quickly. Not just introducing a civil penalty in
blah, blah, blah, but also grounding this helicopter charter company, or charter is, I guess, a
funny way of putting it. It was a sightseeing operation for the most part out of the downtown
Manhattan heliport. I think it's JRB, I think. KJRB.
Yeah, this is, man, if you saw the video, you saw how gruesome this was. This was not
something you wanted to see. It just adds momentum to the push to ban helicopter charter
flights and sightseeing helicopter flights over New York City. The call for that has been growing
increasingly year over year. One, because the safety of these things, they do not have the
greatest record between the FlyNYON helicopter that went into the East River and took
everyone, except, I believe, the pilot down with it, because of the incorrect harnesses used,
trapping passengers onboard, to this one on the Hudson River, going down, taking everyone,
including the pilot down with it. Any of these do not have a great safety record.
That is on top of all of the environmental and just quality of life issues that these constant
helicopter flights bring to the New York City area. Interestingly, the debate goes on to say, well,
there's not much we can do, because most of these flights launch from New Jersey and the city
of New York, the state of New York, really has no control over that. This is a federal issue and
the FAA itself would have to do something to ban non-essential flights from New York airspace,
which it's really not going to do. In this case, this is one of the operations that actually did launch
out of New York, out of Lower Manhattan, which is a heliport controlled by the city of New York.
They can very easily snap their fingers and cancel that contract and make this problem go away
partially at least, but they haven't to this point.
It's unfortunate that this particular company is grounded not due to the action of government, or
the will of the people to get rid of these noisy things that do not stop, but because six people
died in this instance. Hopefully, this can bring back to the forefront the debate over, do we need
these things? Should there be sightseeing flights in such dense, conflicting airspace? If it exists,
should we not get rid of the part of it that we can control here in New York that is an interstate
travel, but the city of New York actually letting these companies operate. As someone who lives
near the East River, I hope that does bring back that debate and I hope we can figure out how to
ban these things. A weird stance to take as an aviation geek, but –
© 2025 AvTalk 4
AVT 316 Transcript
[0:08:55] IP: No. I mean, this is not an unusual stance from what I understand of –
[0:08:59] JR: No.
[0:09:00] IP: I don’t want to get too deep into it. I mean, not necessarily a local issue, but is
local in many respects, but is seemingly a consistent refrain about the growth of helicopter
tourism and the industry as a whole. Let's switch gears and talk about the business of aviation
on a global scale and return our attention to the developing story that is tariffs and reciprocal
tariffs and deliveries and what is happening and no one really knows. That's a quote from one of
the analysts, I believe, at Aero Advisory that basically sums things up. But we're going to round
off what we know so far that has happened this week.
I believe, the Wall Street Journal was the first to report and other publications are seeking
confirmation that this is the case that China has ordered its airlines not to accept any Boeing
aircraft due to tariffs, any new Boeing aircraft. They've also said, and this is according to the
Wall Street Journal report, that parts and components are also affected. That said, most
analysts, yours truly, and I think Jason shares this belief as well, is that that's not a sustainable
position for China to take. Better part of a negotiating tactic. Not only do Chinese airlines
maintain a very large fleet of Boeing aircraft, there are very few delivery slots and availability for
Airbus aircraft if they wanted to switch away. COMAC, for its part with the C919, which is a
homegrown airliner, is also dependent not entirely, but to a large measure for the most
complicated systems on the aircraft on Western parts.
[0:11:03] JR: That gets really complicated, doesn't it?
[0:11:06] IP: It gets very complicated very quickly. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out
and what carve outs and restrictions and all sorts of things, what types of negotiations take
place to where this isn't a total freeze on delivery.
[0:11:22] JR: It's a great bargaining chip by China here. It's unfortunate that they have to play
this particular chip in the world's dumbest game of chicken and something that should not be
happening. But blocking your airline, so this wouldn't apply to the, I believe, to the privately
owned airlines in China, but the state-owned airlines. So, Air China, China, Southern, and –
© 2025 AvTalk 5
AVT 316 Transcript
[0:11:45] IP: China Eastern.
[0:11:45] JR: China Eastern, any one of their subsidiaries as well, which are numerous. But I
guess, Hainan can still – Does Hainan even take aircraft anymore? I don't know.
[0:11:54] IP: No, they place orders. They get the aircraft painted and then it sits around for 10
years and then somebody else picks it up.
[0:11:59] JR: Right. Right. They can still do that. Yeah, they can still do that. This is a really
powerful bargaining chip. As we all know, Boeing is one of the largest, most valuable exporters
in the United States.
[0:12:10] IP: No, no, no. It is not one of.
[0:12:12] JR: It is the, excuse me.
[0:12:13] IP: The largest exporter in the US.
[0:12:15] JR: It is the. In this case, it's not just, is there an aviation angle, to quote Jon
Ostrower. This is the angle. This is the most impactful thing China could have done, and they
pulled that lever real quick.
[0:12:27] IP: But it's not actually all that impactful, which is, I mean, so the problem –
[0:12:31] JR: Not yet, but it will get there if things don't change.
[0:12:35] IP: But it won't. This is one of those things where like, it sounds really bad at first for
Boeing. Long term, it could be, but also, long term, it doesn't make sense for China either. What
it does do is open up discounts to non-Chinese airlines that really need aircraft, because the
problem with aircraft isn't demand. It's not like no one wants airplanes. Everyone wants
airplanes. Everyone's wanted airplanes for a decade. Airlines from India, airlines from Asia,
airlines from the Middle East, airlines in the US all want more airplanes. If there's delivery slots
© 2025 AvTalk 6
AVT 316 Transcript
to be had, and we saw this after the grounding of the 737 MAX and during COVID, where China
said, “We're not taking these.” Air India Express, for instance, or Akasa said, “Yeah, we'll take
those.”
[0:13:31] JR: We'll take them.
[0:13:31] IP: You want us to fly around in a MAX with an Air China logo on it for a little while,
before we can paint?
[0:13:35] JR: Fine.
[0:13:36] IP: Fine.
[0:13:36] JR: It's just another chapter in the book of on and off again, Chinese deliveries from
Boeing.
[0:13:42] IP: Yeah, absolutely.
[0:13:43] JR: Whether it's the MAX crashes, or COVID, or this or that, it's just, have we gone
more than six months of Boeing aircraft consistently being delivered to Chinese airlines since
2019, 2018? I honestly don't think so. Maybe?
[0:14:01] IP: Not much more than that. Yeah.
[0:14:02] JR: Maybe we've squeaked by. It's certainly not a full calendar year. That would be
crazy.
[0:14:05] IP: No.
[0:14:05] JR: But it's not just China and Chinese airlines that do not want to take Boeing
aircraft, or Airbus aircraft. Everybody gets screwed here. Everybody's getting screwed.
© 2025 AvTalk 7
AVT 316 Transcript
[0:14:16] IP: This is the much more interesting. I think we have to talk about the China story,
because it's a –
[0:14:19] JR: It’s the biggest. It's the biggest.
[0:14:20] IP: - big headline. It's a big headline story. I think, the impact on Boeing and Airbus
especially is actually more important.
[0:14:30] JR: Yes.
[0:14:31] IP: Because like we just talked about, the China thing that it's a distraction, because
it'll all work itself out, because it's not just about the tariffs. This, I think, is more important here,
because you have Delta which we talked about before saying, “We're not going to pay tariffs on
the aircraft.” Ryanair is saying, “You know what? We really need those aircraft. But we don't
really need them so bad right now. But we're going to need them in a few months.”
This is what I wanted to talk about, because we talked about this within the context of Ed
Bastian at Delta, CEO of Delta last week, but we can talk about it in the context of Michael
O'Leary, who has a different horse in the run-up game, but he's in the same position where he's
now saying, hoping that sanity prevails and that all of this – I mean, it seems to me that market
reaction is starting to price this in. But CEO commentary is not quite there yet. We'll talk about
that a little bit more when we talk about United Airlines reporting its earnings this week as well.
Airlines are taking this seriously. Jason, you flagged this one, where airlines are basically
forming working groups, figuring out how they can manage deliveries to either pay the smallest,
or no tariffs. I think Lufthansa's is my favorite so far.
[0:15:49] JR: Yeah. We've seen in the past the last time we went through this stupid exercise,
2016 to 2020, where Delta had an interesting idea, taking Airbus aircraft, what if we just never
operate them on a domestic US flight, then we don't have to pay tariffs. They did that with a
bunch of A350s and just, I guess, never paid tariffs on them until, I guess, there was a regime
change in 2020 and suddenly, tariffs didn't matter. So, they took them all onboard. Lufthansa,
now it's Europe's time to do that. Lufthansa, according to Aviation Week, is looking at registering
© 2025 AvTalk 8
AVT 316 Transcript
its new, but yet to be delivered 787s in Switzerland to avoid paying a potential European Union
tariffs on Boeing aircraft. Because remember, we did something stupid imposing a 10% tariff on
EU goods. The EU said, “We're going to do that to you, too. Anyone buying anything from the
US, you got to pay 10%.” But Switzerland's not in the EU. Lufthansa has subsidiaries in
Switzerland. Hey, just deliver all those new 787s from Boeing to Switzerland, slap a Swiss
registration on them, and operate them wherever you need to in the network. Problem solved
forever.
[0:16:55] IP: We're talking about it in the context of Paris, but airlines have been doing this for a
variety of reasons.
[0:17:02] JR: Yes. This is not new. I guess, this particular approach of Europe having to do it,
rather than the US airlines having to do it. Now, that's an interesting twist.
[0:17:12] IP: There you go. Jason, let's continue. I know we had something else on the docket.
[0:17:17] JR: Docket for this.
[0:17:18] IP: But let's –
[0:17:18] JR: Put it down.
[0:17:19] IP: Let's go to United, so that we can keep going with this –
[0:17:22] JR: Continuity, we value a lot here.
[0:17:24] IP: Yeah. We'll keep going. United reported its first quarter earnings this week. It had
the best Q1 in five years. Since COVID, this is the best first quarter result that United has
posted a profit of 387 million dollars on 13.2 billion dollars in operating revenue. Fleet changes
are coming fast and furious to this airline. All the aircraft that you love to hate are going away.
We've got seven new 787s coming in this year, which is one fewer than originally expected. 27
new 737 MAX will join the fleet, and that's one more than they initially expected. 22 A321neo
aircraft will join the fleet this year, but 20 A319 and A320 aircraft will leave.
© 2025 AvTalk 9
AVT 316 Transcript
This is in-line with what we had talked about at the end of last year, basically in the four-year
guidance. Nothing hugely surprising, but like for like growth there. In discussing forward-looking
guidance, roughly the same as Delta, because as Jason mentioned, I think somewhere on
social media, or I don't know if it was in the podcast last week, but United and Delta are
basically becoming the same airlines. As far as their operational model and –
[0:18:42] JR: That's my talk.
[0:18:43] IP: The end that they're chasing.
[0:18:44] JR: Yes. United is trying to become the new Delta.
[0:18:48] IP: They're saying, “Hey, the people who sit in the front of the plane, they are still
giving us a lot of money. They're still making a lot of bookings. We're not really worried about
that. People who sit in the back, not so much anymore.” what they're going to do is they're going
to cut 4% of their scheduled domestic capacity, beginning in the third quarter. That is, “Due to
uncertain macroeconomic environment.” The guidance that United is offering sees a $4.50
earning per share hit in the event of a recession, which is part of their two scenarios. They are
offering financial guidance based on a everything's fine scenario and based on a recessionary
environment scenario, which I thought was very interesting.
[0:19:36] JR: That is interesting. I'm sorry to the people at United who had to basically double
their work saying, can you not just do one set of guidance, but do a whole other one, where it
shows that the economy's on fire. Oh, okay.
[0:19:51] IP: Okay. Yeah. We’ll do that. Comments from United regarding tariffs and then an
interesting comment that we'll get to in a moment that's US based, but still very silly. Regarding
tariffs, Airbus is having to import some parts that go into the airplanes built in Mobile, Alabama.
Airbus is currently paying the tariff on those parts. They are not currently passing on the cost to
United. Then, here we have the what is now a common refrain, “Let's take a breath and we'll
work these things out.” No one in the C-suite at these airlines is really rushing in to make
© 2025 AvTalk 10
AVT 316 Transcript
changes right away, mostly because we have no idea what's going to happen after you settle on
something.
[0:20:42] JR: Yeah, that's a good way they quoted it, was an uncertain macroeconomic
environment is a good way of saying, “We have no idea what the hell is going to happen
tomorrow. We're just not even going to try.” That's a good way to put that out. I'm going to use
that at work, uncertain macro-economic environment. Interestingly, I got a press release from a
company I had never heard of before yesterday called Prima Power. They are a company that
manufactures very large machines that is apparently used to either drill, weld, or cut pizzas of
sheet metal.
[0:21:15] IP: You're going to say, drill, weld, or cut pizzas.
[0:21:18] JR: Pizzas. I mean, Chicago pizzas are pretty big, but you don't need laser welders to
cut. Well, maybe Chicago deep dishes are pretty thick. Anyway, it's a company that makes very
large machines that are used in all sorts of components to build aircraft components. They just
said, “You know what? Effective today, prices are going up 10% on literally everything spare
parts.” This is so far reaching that if the spare parts you need for the machine that is used to
weld pieces of sheet metal that goes in the pieces of components that themselves are now
going up 10% to 145%, if you're getting it from China, prices are about to go up and not
everyone's going to be able to absorb those costs, unless their name is Airbus, I guess.
[0:22:05] IP: For now. Yeah.
[0:22:07] JR: For now. That can't last forever.
[0:22:09] IP: All right, let's do one last bit on United. Jason, you saw this. I chuckled. This is just
the thing that –
[0:22:18] JR: I think this might be the first time. I'm going to do a control F and search for real
ID. It is, in fact, the first time in the history of this podcast, we are talking about real ID, because
it's been a hypothetical. Not a real thing, that gets delayed consistently for what? Over a decade
now. This was actually something that I think was mandated in the wake of 9/11. Some of you
© 2025 AvTalk 11
AVT 316 Transcript
who were listening to this podcast probably were not alive in 2001. Now, you're probably a
business professional with a family. It's been a long time coming.
Andrew Nocella at United was quoted in the earnings call saying, I quote, “I hope that date gets
extended once again. I'll hope the same thing when it happens again. We're working through
this with the government, and I think we'll have more to say on it. Hopefully, everybody's
prepared…” That was a quote given to us by Seth Miller from PaxEx.Aero, because I didn't have
a chance to listen to it, but we're perilously close to the real ID deadline. I think it's less than a
month at this point.
[0:23:21] IP: May 7th, I think.
[0:23:23] JR: May 7th. We're only a couple weeks away. It feels more real this time. If you are
flying on May 7th, I feel bad for you. I'm sorry. In the US, because the airports are probably going
to be a nightmare. I shouldn't say this too loudly, but if you're listening to this podcast, I trust
you. If you're flying Delta, United, or Alaska, sign up for touchless pre-check, because it's pre-
check for pre-check, you get your own little line, you go straight to the front. You'll avoid all the
chaos of people trying to actually show their ID that isn't accepted anymore. It seems like United
has some information that maybe, maybe right down to the wire, this will be delayed again. It's
just fun to see that even United is like, yeah, we hope this gets delayed after the day it's delayed
again.
[0:24:10] IP: Yeah. Speaking of things that have gone on and on and on and on, when you sit in
an aircraft seat, brand-new aircraft, they’re squishy, yet firm, nice padding. We've all sat in seats
that aren't that. But those seats are usually taken out of service and replaced. However,
because the aerospace supply chain is so messed up, this isn't just recent stuff. I mean, this is
going back years and years and years, at least even beginning slightly pre-COVID with seats
and things like that, that just COVID just made it worse, and it's never gotten better. Now,
Collins Aerospace and an organization whose name I need to refine –
[0:25:05] JR: Additive manufacturing specialist materialize.
© 2025 AvTalk 12
AVT 316 Transcript
[0:25:09] IP: There it is. They are both developing separately. They are developing ways to
refresh those seats, so that they can be put back into service, rather than having to go with a
wholesale changeover, because it's so difficult to get material and parts and get everything
together.
[0:25:30] JR: This is something that I ordinarily would have talked about last week, if I went to
Aircraft Interior Expo in Hamburg, but now I have to rely on a wonderful aviation week article
that sums it up. Collins Aerospace is calling this modify and elevate. What a nice tagline for a
thing. Basically –
[0:25:46] IP: All right. We’ll take it.
[0:25:48] JR: Yeah, like you said, Ian, this predates COVID, but aircraft are – they're having
their lives extended, because you just can't get delivery of new aircraft as reliably as you want.
The seats onboard, well, they're falling apart. If you've flown a 25-year-old American A320, you
know exactly what we're talking about. Collins Aerospace is working on ways to upgrade their
pinnacle seats in interesting ways that reuse different levels of the seats, so you can do the
lighter touch, which reuses 75% of the seat, or you can go higher end and reuse 80% to 90% of
the original seat, or I guess, that would be the lower end. You're using more of the original seat,
80% to 90%, but refreshing things like the seat covers, the cushions, the structure, the finishes,
end caps, and things on the seat to make it look new without actually doing it. Because not only
is it a problem of getting new aircraft, but also just getting seats.
It's wildly expensive to put new seats on an airplane. But hey, if you could put some new
coverings over it and slap a USB port on, or put a tablet holder and make it look new, people
may be none the wiser.
[0:26:58] IP: There you go.
[0:26:59] JR: Really smart.
© 2025 AvTalk 13
AVT 316 Transcript
[0:27:01] IP: Hey, I'm all for recycling. If it works, then why not? American Airlines is joining the
growing collection of major airlines that is offering free Wi-Fi, though this will be “free,” I'm using
free in quotation marks, because you'll still have to sign up for their frequent flyer program.
[0:27:22] JR: Yeah, but they're all doing that. Better late than never. American had to be
dragged into this, kicking and screaming. Don't know what took so long, as virtually every other
airline in North America is doing this with the same system. American already has on installed,
basically, fleet wide on their mainline aircraft, except for international aircraft. Welcome to 2025,
or really, this decade American Uber. We're happy to have you. Interestingly, this doesn't start
until 2026, but there's no time like nine months from now to do what your competitors started
doing a decade ago.
[0:28:03] IP: Yeah, that sounds about right.
[0:28:05] JR: It is literally better late than never. That leaves Spirit as the only airline in the US
that has Wi-Fi and does not have plans to make free Wi-Fi.
[0:28:18] IP: Spirit is actually going to hand out ethernet jacks. They're just going to trail miles
and miles along –
[0:28:23] JR: Spirit has Wi-Fi in pretty much its entire fleet, but it's the only airline I've really
ever flown on where I look at the price and scoff at it and say, “Absolutely not. This is too
expensive.” I don't know. Maybe they figure it out eventually. But I think that is the only airline in
the US and Canada that does not have plans to transition to free Wi-Fi. Welcome aboard
American. We've been wondering, where are you? Now we know.
[0:28:48] IP: This next story is actually my favorite story.
[0:28:51] JR: Ian is so excited to talk about this one.
[0:28:53] IP: I am so excited to talk about it. You can hear the bounce in my step and the lilt in
my voice. This is one of the nerdy and fun things that I love to talk about, where you take an
already extremely ultra complicated flying machine and you tweak it just a little and you get a
© 2025 AvTalk 14
AVT 316 Transcript
little something extra out of it. But how you do it is the real fun part. Airbus has secured EASA
certification of an A330neo performance enhancement package that is a different takeoff
configuration, that allows for more minute adjustments to flap settings and changes how some
of the systems operate during takeoff and at the initial clock.
Through all of this, it allows the aircraft to operate with a higher max takeoff weight, without
adding thrust, and adds fuel efficiency and reduces fuel burn, which to me is really cool. How
they did it is actually really interesting. The flaps are still a five-position flap lever. That doesn't
change. But in the takeoff performance calculations, the crew can enter a total of nine separate
settings. They can say, “I'm going to set the flap lever here, but it's actually this adjusted
setting.” Then the aircraft's flaps will automatically adjust to that intermediate setting. The other
thing they did is the gear comes up quicker.
[0:30:49] JR: Well, that's neat. The gear comes up, the less drag there is overall. That's not
nothing.
[0:30:55] IP: It was great. It was like, all right, it would just make the gear come up quicker.
[0:30:58] JR: That feels like the kind of thing that somebody just had an idea someone had in a
meeting where they're like, “Man, how do we make the A330neo more efficient and bill from
accountings? Why don't we just make the dangly bits on the bottom go up quicker?” They're
like, “Yeah. Yeah. Let's do that.”
[0:31:15] IP: That sounds good. This has all been done in concert with Condor. They will take
the first aircraft that has this improvement added. Then from then on, it's just going to be the line
fit A330-900. It'll be an interesting thing to see operationally, I guess. We're not going to know for
a while, but it'll be interesting to see if we can get some data on that and how do that affect fuel
burn over the long haul. I want to see if we can get our hands on some of that.
[0:31:51] JR: Yeah, it's pretty cool, because there aren't a ton of flap settings. I think there's
one, two, three, five flap settings on the A330neo. This brings it up to nine.
[0:32:02] IP: You basically get a half setting per se.
© 2025 AvTalk 15
AVT 316 Transcript
[0:32:05] JR: Yeah. The MCDU, you be like, “I want flaps 5.425795.” The computer just knows
and it will do it. We don't actually know where the incremental settings are, but it's really cool
that the computer will be able to dial in an exact flap setting between the flap settings that the
pilots can set. That's cool. I like that.
[0:32:26] IP: Yeah. I think it'll be fun. They're designated.
[0:32:28] JR: It'll be fun. The pilots will just be onboard and like, “Ah-ha. Look at our flaps.
They’re in this weirdo setting that we don't have an indent for.” That's fun.
[0:32:38] IP: 1B, 2B, 2C and 3B are the new flap settings. No mechanical changes to the lever.
However, there are some hardware modifications in the E&E bay that will account for the new
settings and things like that. There's also a, Airbus gives some numbers, a 0.8 second reduction
in landing gear retraction time, and the gear doors close 0.2 seconds faster.
[0:33:08] JR: You know what? It all matters. It all matters.
[0:33:13] IP: We go from exciting, but very nerdy news to not exciting at all, and just awful,
continuously awful news for Air New Zealand, which just cannot catch a break.
[0:33:27] JR: No. Air New Zealand just cannot catch a break, seemingly ever, in the entirety of
the time we've been doing this podcast, between COVID and what was the line from United?
Something, something macroeconomic, whatever, whatever. Nothing ever goes –
[0:33:41] IP: Macro-economic uncertainty.
[0:33:43] JR: There you go. Nothing ever goes the way Air New Zealand needs it to. It could not
possibly be more impacted right now by the current engine issues by both Rolls Royce and Pratt
& Whitney, because that's basically their entire fleet, the A320neo family and the 787s. Things
are getting worse somehow for Air New Zealand, and not in a way you might think, but they
spelled it out pretty nicely. Their current expectations are that 11 of its aircraft are grounded,
despite Air New Zealand securing seven additional leased engines and another fully owned
© 2025 AvTalk 16
AVT 316 Transcript
spare engine to stabilize its number of grounded narrowbody jets. That's a lot of leased and
spare capacity.
It gets really interesting in the compensation. The problem here is that in the first half of the
year, Air New Zealand recognized 94 million dollars in compensation, and that is from the
engine manufacturers, because their engines don't work, airplanes can't fly. But that's going to
be reduced with the same number of aircraft at a service down to 35 to 40 million dollars.
Roughly half. The reason, Ian, is not one you might expect it.
[0:34:57] IP: Yeah, I had to read through this multiple times. Yeah.
[0:35:01] JR: The thing here is that somehow, the definition of basically, an out of service
aircraft is being changed. Previously, Air New Zealand had been keeping, I guess, you could call
it defective, or in need of maintenance engines on wing, so that Air New Zealand could move
these aircraft around its system as needed, rather than just leaving it somewhere parked, never
to move again, until a new available engine is put on wing. In the second half of the year, if an
engine remains on wing, that aircraft is no longer considered aircraft on ground. Those 11
aircraft, as long as they've got engines on wing, they are no longer due compensation.
That is crazy now that regardless of the number of unserviceable engines, or the number of
grounded aircraft, that doesn't actually reflect the number of aircraft that they officially cannot fly
in a revenue service, because of these engine issues, which is just sucks. If you're Air New
Zealand, you want to be able to move these aircraft around. Now, for whatever reason, if those
engines are on the wing, that aircraft is not officially counted as aircraft on ground, even though
it is firmly on the ground, and their compensation is being cut in half. That is brutal for an airline
of this size. Did I sum that up well? I tried, but it’s just –
[0:36:25] IP: Yeah. I mean, that's the gist of it. I mean, basically, they have to take the engines
off the wing and they lose some flexibility to move the aircraft where they need to be if they do
that.
[0:36:37] JR: Even if that engine is going to sit for months and months and months without
actually being slotted in for an overhaul, because we know the capacity to actually overhaul
© 2025 AvTalk 17
AVT 316 Transcript
these engines is the biggest problem, so why would you take the engine off the wing six months
before it's going to go in for service when you could leave it on the wing and move that aircraft
around if you need it to? Now, that's not an option. Air New Zealand, man, they can't ever catch
a break.
[0:37:03] IP: One day. One day. Let's run through some quick notes and then we'll be gone for
the week. SAS is reintroducing EuroBiz, basically the upgraded blocked middle seat that we
have all come to know and love. Currently in intra-European flying, SAS only has what they call
Plus, which is no block seats, a slightly sometimes nice tasting snack.
[0:37:31] JR: Lounge access.
[0:37:33] IP: They do offer lounge access. That's true. But now, they are reintroducing
European business class, which is something they had before and then got rid of and they had
before and got rid of, got rid of. This is the, I think –
[0:37:44] JR: I've got to reset my timer for does SAS offer intra-European business class again.
I can't reset it until October first, when the changes kick in. Yeah, this is the first time this has
happened with SAS, and I can't imagine it's the last.
[0:37:58] IP: This is all part of SAS's reintroduction of European business class to offer a
premium experience of a “top European airline.” We'll see what we can see when October 1st
rolls around. The Russian government has extended its new wet leasing rules, which remember,
if you listened to the podcast for more than six weeks, I think, not long ago, Russia began
legalizing wet leasing. Borrowing aircraft from another airline, or bringing an aircraft from
another airline to operate for you. They're now extending those rules to cover international
flights as well, giving their airlines further flexibility in the face of not being able to get aircraft, or
maintain aircraft.
[0:38:40] JR: I still can't believe that wasn't a thing in Russia, because the entire European
aviation airlines would collapse without wet leasing aircraft for international flights. There
wouldn't be airlines at this point. Yeah, welcome to the club, Russia.
© 2025 AvTalk 18
AVT 316 Transcript
[0:38:55] IP: Yeah. Former Lufthansa and Malaysia Airlines A380s, three of them are going to
be parted out for spares to maintain current fleets. We're losing to the chopping block MSN61,
66, and 84. This adds to the small, but growing number of A380s that are meeting a demise in
order to serve parts to the existing fleet.
Finally, we close the show by opening up wabbit season. A United Airlines 737 departing Denver
for Edmonton earlier this week ingested a rabbit during its takeoff roll and had to return to
Denver, shutting down engine number two, which did not like rabbit and failed. But the aircraft
circled for a bit and then landed safely once again in Denver. All's well that ends well for
everyone, except the rabbit.
[0:39:55] JR: Well, I hope they had a hunting permit.
[0:39:59] IP: Duck season. I don't know how many of our listeners get that.
[0:40:03] JR: On that note, we're done for the week. Goodbye.
[0:40:05] IP: We're done for the week. This has been episode 316 of AvTalk. I am Ian
Petchenik, here, as always with –
[0:40:15] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Thanks for listening.
[END]
© 2025 AvTalk 19