323 | What to Do When Time Is Up But the Child Isn't Regulated Yet

0
00:00:00,469 --> 00:00:04,309
You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr. Brenna Hicks,

1
00:00:04,469 --> 00:00:08,220
your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.

2
00:00:08,550 --> 00:00:08,720
Hi,

3
00:00:08,789 --> 00:00:09,810
I'm Dr. Brenna Hicks,

4
00:00:09,819 --> 00:00:10,550
The Kid Counselor.

5
00:00:10,670 --> 00:00:12,670
This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get

6
00:00:12,670 --> 00:00:15,100
a master class in child-centered play therapy

7
00:00:15,100 --> 00:00:17,350
and practical support and application for your

8
00:00:17,350 --> 00:00:18,899
work with children and their families.

9
00:00:19,389 --> 00:00:20,110
In today's episode,

10
00:00:20,190 --> 00:00:22,790
I am answering a question from Crystal in Minnesota.

11
00:00:23,659 --> 00:00:25,729
I think I've had a few other Minnesotans

12
00:00:25,729 --> 00:00:28,760
write in because I remember talking about the

13
00:00:29,170 --> 00:00:31,770
really cool trip that we took to Minnesota a couple of years ago.

14
00:00:31,809 --> 00:00:34,080
So hello to you Minnesotans,

15
00:00:34,209 --> 00:00:35,220
Minnesotans,

16
00:00:35,569 --> 00:00:37,930
and I want to dive into this email.

17
00:00:37,970 --> 00:00:40,319
This is actually a really helpful question.

18
00:00:40,409 --> 00:00:40,930
So Crystal,

19
00:00:41,009 --> 00:00:41,650
thank you.

20
00:00:41,849 --> 00:00:45,439
I'm gonna read parts of it and we will tackle it together.

21
00:00:45,799 --> 00:00:48,740
I'm a clinical social worker currently working in a public school

22
00:00:49,029 --> 00:00:50,709
and have discovered a love for play therapy.

23
00:00:50,750 --> 00:00:53,939
I'm moving into a group practice and I found your podcast

24
00:00:53,939 --> 00:00:57,110
absolutely invaluable in honing my skills as I make the transition.

25
00:00:57,259 --> 00:00:57,750
I'm so glad,

26
00:00:57,790 --> 00:00:58,150
Crystal,

27
00:00:58,229 --> 00:00:59,259
that's why I do it.

28
00:00:59,509 --> 00:01:01,150
It has been wonderfully affirming to know that

29
00:01:01,150 --> 00:01:03,849
non-directive child-centered play therapy is a thing.

30
00:01:04,110 --> 00:01:05,089
Indeed it is.

31
00:01:05,589 --> 00:01:08,069
Your podcast is helping me learn how to articulate why

32
00:01:08,069 --> 00:01:09,870
I'm doing the way things the way that I do,

33
00:01:10,029 --> 00:01:13,029
especially since the schools are very directive environments.

34
00:01:13,339 --> 00:01:13,720
Yes,

35
00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:15,080
a battle worth waging,

36
00:01:15,129 --> 00:01:18,699
but for sure a struggle for school-based CCPTs.

37
00:01:19,050 --> 00:01:20,839
I'm wondering how to end sessions

38
00:01:21,089 --> 00:01:23,720
when ensuring the child is emotionally regulated and safe.

39
00:01:24,010 --> 00:01:26,489
Today I was working with a 5 year old with a known trauma history.

40
00:01:26,610 --> 00:01:30,309
He was doing some really intense processing around power and control and safety,

41
00:01:30,650 --> 00:01:34,599
and at the end it was clear that he was not regulated enough to safely return to class.

42
00:01:34,930 --> 00:01:36,790
I always give 5 and 2 minute warnings,

43
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,569
and he often struggles to leave at the end.

44
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:40,910
Today he was reluctant but willing to leave,

45
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:42,519
but he ran from me in the hallway,

46
00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:43,830
pushed other children,

47
00:01:44,430 --> 00:01:45,970
and in situations in the past

48
00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,760
I've introduced a regulating activity like breathing,

49
00:01:48,839 --> 00:01:49,559
rhythmic movement,

50
00:01:49,599 --> 00:01:49,919
etc.

51
00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:53,949
but I'm not sure what to do now that I've committed to the non-directive way of life.

52
00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:55,089
Oh,

53
00:01:55,239 --> 00:01:55,480
you know,

54
00:01:55,639 --> 00:01:56,760
once you've come to the light side,

55
00:01:56,839 --> 00:01:57,720
you're never gonna go back,

56
00:01:57,760 --> 00:01:58,160
Crystal,

57
00:01:58,239 --> 00:01:58,919
so we'll,

58
00:01:58,959 --> 00:02:00,040
we'll figure it out together.

59
00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,150
So here's what

60
00:02:03,519 --> 00:02:05,449
is going on in a scenario like this,

61
00:02:05,599 --> 00:02:07,470
and even if you are not school-based,

62
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,520
there are inevitably children that the time is up and you know that they are

63
00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:15,880
not regulated and you know that walking out to the lobby and greeting parents,

64
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:16,399
caregivers,

65
00:02:16,479 --> 00:02:19,360
whomever is likely going to be difficult.

66
00:02:19,595 --> 00:02:22,164
So this is a very universal scenario.

67
00:02:22,304 --> 00:02:23,535
We've given 5 minute warning,

68
00:02:23,574 --> 00:02:24,695
we've given 2 minute warning,

69
00:02:24,735 --> 00:02:28,294
and the child wraps up and we know that there is still

70
00:02:28,934 --> 00:02:29,455
that

71
00:02:29,735 --> 00:02:30,645
dysregulation.

72
00:02:30,695 --> 00:02:31,845
There's still the charge,

73
00:02:31,854 --> 00:02:33,804
there's still all of that going on for the child,

74
00:02:34,095 --> 00:02:35,695
and that is tricky to navigate.

75
00:02:35,774 --> 00:02:37,005
So this is a really helpful question.

76
00:02:37,085 --> 00:02:37,975
I'm glad we're diving in.

77
00:02:38,929 --> 00:02:39,089
All right,

78
00:02:39,210 --> 00:02:39,970
first and foremost,

79
00:02:40,009 --> 00:02:42,199
you need to have decompression

80
00:02:42,449 --> 00:02:44,600
scenarios worked into your process.

81
00:02:44,929 --> 00:02:46,009
So for us,

82
00:02:46,490 --> 00:02:49,770
the child chooses where to wash hands as they leave the playroom.

83
00:02:50,649 --> 00:02:52,429
And then they choose a snack.

84
00:02:53,259 --> 00:02:55,320
So we're kind of engaging different

85
00:02:55,630 --> 00:02:56,380
aspects here.

86
00:02:56,550 --> 00:02:57,220
So first of all,

87
00:02:57,270 --> 00:02:58,690
we're killing some time.

88
00:02:59,139 --> 00:03:01,500
This is why we have a 50 minute therapeutic hour

89
00:03:01,869 --> 00:03:03,619
because we have a 10 minute turnaround.

90
00:03:04,110 --> 00:03:04,559
So Crystal,

91
00:03:04,669 --> 00:03:06,949
I'm not sure what your schedule is like in the schools

92
00:03:06,949 --> 00:03:09,100
and for those of you that are not in private practice,

93
00:03:09,190 --> 00:03:11,949
I don't know what the governance is over how

94
00:03:11,949 --> 00:03:13,979
long you have and what your turnaround time is.

95
00:03:14,229 --> 00:03:17,500
If you have any control over that whatsoever and or

96
00:03:17,750 --> 00:03:19,750
maybe a more helpful thing to say is.

97
00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,690
You need to ensure that you have governance

98
00:03:22,690 --> 00:03:25,229
over some of these things in any environment

99
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:26,610
in which you work.

100
00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,490
You need to have built in decompression

101
00:03:29,759 --> 00:03:30,509
turnaround.

102
00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:31,679
In other words,

103
00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:33,029
what can you do

104
00:03:33,279 --> 00:03:35,429
that will engage some senses

105
00:03:35,759 --> 00:03:38,990
that will take the child out of their deep feelings,

106
00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,429
that will give them some time and space,

107
00:03:41,759 --> 00:03:44,270
that will allow them to kind of recalibrate,

108
00:03:44,919 --> 00:03:47,669
potentially take care of some of the somatic stuff that's going on.

109
00:03:47,919 --> 00:03:49,110
And if you think about it,

110
00:03:49,309 --> 00:03:50,339
if a child

111
00:03:50,710 --> 00:03:51,809
walks somewhere,

112
00:03:52,149 --> 00:03:53,300
washes hands,

113
00:03:53,710 --> 00:03:54,940
walks somewhere else,

114
00:03:55,309 --> 00:03:56,380
chooses a snack.

115
00:03:57,350 --> 00:03:58,190
Consumes,

116
00:03:58,330 --> 00:03:59,199
said snack.

117
00:04:00,009 --> 00:04:01,720
And then goes out to the lobby.

118
00:04:02,770 --> 00:04:05,059
Now all of a sudden there's some built in

119
00:04:05,789 --> 00:04:08,220
time for the child to kind of come down

120
00:04:08,789 --> 00:04:14,669
and now the body is engaging in other senses and other experiences we've

121
00:04:14,669 --> 00:04:17,149
changed environments we've focused on several

122
00:04:17,149 --> 00:04:19,309
different things we've made some choices.

123
00:04:19,630 --> 00:04:20,820
Now all of a sudden

124
00:04:21,190 --> 00:04:23,459
we're kind of getting out of therapy,

125
00:04:24,109 --> 00:04:29,940
internalized stuff and we're into more decision making and externalizing things.

126
00:04:30,559 --> 00:04:32,559
That is the goal of the turnaround.

127
00:04:32,859 --> 00:04:33,410
So Crystal,

128
00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:33,899
for you,

129
00:04:33,940 --> 00:04:36,029
I don't know if you maybe you're on.

130
00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:38,769
I know a lot of times school-based people have 30 minutes,

131
00:04:39,140 --> 00:04:42,519
so I don't know if maybe that means that you have a 25 minute

132
00:04:42,809 --> 00:04:47,549
therapeutic hour and then you use that 5 minute turnaround time to work this out.

133
00:04:48,059 --> 00:04:49,149
That's very important.

134
00:04:49,339 --> 00:04:50,640
Another component is

135
00:04:50,929 --> 00:04:54,130
there are times when you have to make a clinical judgment call.

136
00:04:54,709 --> 00:04:55,230
That

137
00:04:55,510 --> 00:04:55,970
you

138
00:04:56,390 --> 00:04:58,660
allow the child to remain with you a little bit longer,

139
00:04:58,779 --> 00:05:01,480
even if that means that you go over time a little bit.

140
00:05:02,660 --> 00:05:04,320
So we have the work in

141
00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,809
where we have the snack and the hand washing and then walking out to the lobby.

142
00:05:09,799 --> 00:05:11,079
Sometimes that isn't even enough.

143
00:05:11,170 --> 00:05:12,260
So sometimes

144
00:05:12,559 --> 00:05:14,440
we have an extra 2 or 3 minutes.

145
00:05:15,529 --> 00:05:17,079
Before we even leave the playroom,

146
00:05:17,459 --> 00:05:18,200
time is up,

147
00:05:18,369 --> 00:05:20,690
but we kind of give that extra pause

148
00:05:21,010 --> 00:05:22,600
for kids to really kind of

149
00:05:23,049 --> 00:05:25,200
come back down from whatever it is they're working on.

150
00:05:25,690 --> 00:05:26,480
Sometimes we

151
00:05:26,700 --> 00:05:31,859
take an extra few minutes in the snack area before we go out to mom or dad or whomever

152
00:05:32,489 --> 00:05:34,359
because we need to make that clinical

153
00:05:34,359 --> 00:05:37,850
decision of does this child seem regulated enough

154
00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,649
to be able to handle going back into a different

155
00:05:41,649 --> 00:05:43,890
environment that's going to be a shock to the system.

156
00:05:45,019 --> 00:05:47,519
And whether they go back to a classroom in a school,

157
00:05:47,690 --> 00:05:49,929
whether they go back to caregiver in the lobby.

158
00:05:50,779 --> 00:05:52,600
The people that have been waiting,

159
00:05:52,929 --> 00:05:55,279
so teacher and and peers in the classroom,

160
00:05:55,489 --> 00:05:56,890
parent and siblings in the lobby,

161
00:05:56,929 --> 00:05:58,720
whoever has been waiting for the child,

162
00:05:59,170 --> 00:06:00,369
they are oblivious

163
00:06:00,809 --> 00:06:03,959
to the depth and the burden and the heaviness

164
00:06:04,459 --> 00:06:06,579
of what that child has just been processing.

165
00:06:06,890 --> 00:06:08,480
So inevitably what happens,

166
00:06:08,649 --> 00:06:11,320
they go out and they're still carrying the weight of it.

167
00:06:11,329 --> 00:06:13,119
They still feel the burden of that,

168
00:06:13,369 --> 00:06:14,850
and whoever greets them.

169
00:06:15,549 --> 00:06:15,980
It's like,

170
00:06:16,140 --> 00:06:16,299
hey,

171
00:06:16,380 --> 00:06:17,350
did you have fun?

172
00:06:17,660 --> 00:06:17,820
Oh,

173
00:06:17,859 --> 00:06:18,290
you're back.

174
00:06:18,339 --> 00:06:18,619
OK,

175
00:06:18,660 --> 00:06:19,959
let's jump into math.

176
00:06:20,579 --> 00:06:21,540
And it's,

177
00:06:21,660 --> 00:06:22,929
it's oblivion,

178
00:06:23,269 --> 00:06:23,809
not

179
00:06:24,100 --> 00:06:25,489
in any kind of critical way,

180
00:06:25,700 --> 00:06:29,489
but there's like a lack of awareness and there's oblivion and ignorance

181
00:06:29,899 --> 00:06:30,369
to

182
00:06:30,660 --> 00:06:32,769
what that kid has just been put through

183
00:06:33,179 --> 00:06:34,380
during that play session.

184
00:06:35,299 --> 00:06:39,320
And so sometimes it's also a psychoeducation aspect

185
00:06:39,529 --> 00:06:40,570
of helping parents,

186
00:06:40,730 --> 00:06:41,570
teachers,

187
00:06:41,769 --> 00:06:42,489
whomever

188
00:06:43,209 --> 00:06:43,839
understand

189
00:06:44,329 --> 00:06:45,720
what expectations are.

190
00:06:46,290 --> 00:06:46,420
Look,

191
00:06:46,489 --> 00:06:49,040
there's going to be times when your child comes out

192
00:06:49,410 --> 00:06:50,880
and they just,

193
00:06:51,010 --> 00:06:51,679
they're quiet,

194
00:06:52,049 --> 00:06:53,200
they're just regulated,

195
00:06:53,489 --> 00:06:55,369
they're a little bit disengaged,

196
00:06:55,459 --> 00:06:56,679
they're a little bit withdrawn.

197
00:06:57,119 --> 00:06:57,940
And

198
00:06:58,109 --> 00:06:59,750
we have to be sensitive to that.

199
00:06:59,950 --> 00:07:02,299
We don't want to respond in certain ways.

200
00:07:02,309 --> 00:07:04,149
We don't want to ask if they had fun.

201
00:07:04,470 --> 00:07:05,940
We don't wanna ask what they did.

202
00:07:06,029 --> 00:07:09,459
We don't want them to have to dive right into something real fast.

203
00:07:10,230 --> 00:07:12,149
We kind of need to honor their process.

204
00:07:12,190 --> 00:07:13,899
We need to respect where they are

205
00:07:14,549 --> 00:07:16,380
and sometimes it's gonna take a little while

206
00:07:16,670 --> 00:07:18,510
for them to recalibrate.

207
00:07:18,950 --> 00:07:21,600
So often it's conversations with teachers,

208
00:07:21,649 --> 00:07:23,010
with school counselors,

209
00:07:23,130 --> 00:07:24,440
with parents,

210
00:07:24,619 --> 00:07:25,320
caregivers,

211
00:07:25,489 --> 00:07:26,040
whomever.

212
00:07:26,209 --> 00:07:26,450
Why?

213
00:07:26,670 --> 00:07:27,700
Because they don't know,

214
00:07:27,850 --> 00:07:29,279
you don't know what you don't know,

215
00:07:29,809 --> 00:07:33,250
but we can see it and so we have to advocate on behalf of the child.

216
00:07:34,019 --> 00:07:37,230
That allows us to help parents and other people

217
00:07:37,540 --> 00:07:40,410
have expectations of what is normal and appropriate

218
00:07:40,410 --> 00:07:42,670
and therefore how they can respond differently.

219
00:07:43,709 --> 00:07:47,239
So when you said that he was willing to leave but reluctant,

220
00:07:47,769 --> 00:07:49,959
that is a clinical awareness that we had,

221
00:07:50,049 --> 00:07:50,279
oh,

222
00:07:50,290 --> 00:07:51,519
he's probably not

223
00:07:51,869 --> 00:07:52,640
fully capable of,

224
00:07:52,690 --> 00:07:54,239
of heading back yet.

225
00:07:54,649 --> 00:07:57,089
So I'm wondering if in your scenario if you can

226
00:07:57,850 --> 00:07:59,239
walk the

227
00:07:59,489 --> 00:08:01,010
long way to the classroom.

228
00:08:01,579 --> 00:08:03,880
I wonder if you could have him go on an errand with you.

229
00:08:04,010 --> 00:08:06,410
I need to go drop this off at Miss So and So's office,

230
00:08:06,489 --> 00:08:08,079
so I wonder if you'd like to come with me,

231
00:08:08,290 --> 00:08:10,880
and that'll kill an extra 2 minutes before he's actually

232
00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,200
engaging in the hallway with peers and other children.

233
00:08:14,850 --> 00:08:17,390
You have the luxury and the ability

234
00:08:17,970 --> 00:08:18,519
to

235
00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:20,760
make decisions on behalf of the child.

236
00:08:20,850 --> 00:08:22,559
That's the whole premise of CCPT.

237
00:08:22,730 --> 00:08:23,839
It's child led.

238
00:08:24,209 --> 00:08:26,920
We recognize where the child is and we meet them where they are.

239
00:08:27,250 --> 00:08:28,410
We sit in the pocket

240
00:08:28,649 --> 00:08:30,160
of whatever it is that they're going through.

241
00:08:30,779 --> 00:08:33,619
And so when he goes into the hallway and pushes other kids,

242
00:08:33,690 --> 00:08:34,479
it's no wonder.

243
00:08:35,130 --> 00:08:39,830
And so maybe it's about accommodating that and coming up with an alternative

244
00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:43,308
that will still allow him to transition back to class,

245
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:45,150
but in a more favorable way.

246
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:45,640
And again,

247
00:08:45,719 --> 00:08:46,929
this is about setting

248
00:08:47,119 --> 00:08:48,669
the scenario up for success.

249
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:50,989
We want the child to be successful.

250
00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:51,710
We want

251
00:08:51,989 --> 00:08:53,640
the adults to be the stakeholders,

252
00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:53,840
right,

253
00:08:53,919 --> 00:08:54,320
the parents,

254
00:08:54,330 --> 00:08:54,919
the caregivers,

255
00:08:54,950 --> 00:08:55,400
the teachers,

256
00:08:55,479 --> 00:08:55,919
the principal,

257
00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:56,650
whomever.

258
00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:58,909
We want them to feel that it's successful.

259
00:08:59,059 --> 00:09:01,070
We want to feel that things are successful

260
00:09:01,239 --> 00:09:05,609
and sometimes it's setting expectations and providing different alternatives

261
00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,320
to accommodate the need and it's not an every week thing.

262
00:09:09,140 --> 00:09:10,469
There are going to be some weeks,

263
00:09:10,619 --> 00:09:12,250
actually probably most weeks,

264
00:09:12,619 --> 00:09:16,929
where he is fully capable of transitioning back with the regular process,

265
00:09:17,580 --> 00:09:18,900
but every once in a while

266
00:09:19,179 --> 00:09:21,739
we make that clinical call where we realize,

267
00:09:21,780 --> 00:09:22,090
you know what,

268
00:09:22,099 --> 00:09:24,450
I probably need to give this kid an extra couple of minutes.

269
00:09:25,190 --> 00:09:27,849
And that is justified clinically.

270
00:09:28,239 --> 00:09:31,090
That is a professional instinctive reaction

271
00:09:31,419 --> 00:09:34,690
that we are able to implement as a result of knowing kids

272
00:09:34,859 --> 00:09:37,179
and knowing where they are and knowing what's happening for them.

273
00:09:38,229 --> 00:09:38,940
So

274
00:09:39,109 --> 00:09:41,210
I'm actually very happy to hear that you

275
00:09:41,210 --> 00:09:44,700
have abandoned your breathing and rhythmic movement process

276
00:09:45,270 --> 00:09:46,349
and I understand the why,

277
00:09:46,390 --> 00:09:48,739
I understand what the intention was behind that,

278
00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:50,719
but we have to recognize that

279
00:09:51,049 --> 00:09:53,250
children learn to self regulate,

280
00:09:53,630 --> 00:09:55,380
children learn to self control,

281
00:09:55,869 --> 00:09:58,460
children learn to recalibrate themselves.

282
00:09:59,070 --> 00:09:59,570
And

283
00:09:59,710 --> 00:10:03,549
if they're learning it themselves instead of being told to do an activity.

284
00:10:03,940 --> 00:10:06,929
That serves them long term in every scenario

285
00:10:07,219 --> 00:10:09,450
rather than just here and now in this moment,

286
00:10:09,619 --> 00:10:10,989
I'm breathing to calm down.

287
00:10:11,580 --> 00:10:14,820
That does not give them the longitudinal outcome

288
00:10:15,059 --> 00:10:20,250
of I know how to get myself under control and I know how to regulate when I get upset.

289
00:10:20,859 --> 00:10:22,419
That's the goal and through the four

290
00:10:22,419 --> 00:10:24,690
universal outcomes through all of our interactions,

291
00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:25,349
obviously

292
00:10:25,780 --> 00:10:27,929
that is the facilitation of

293
00:10:28,099 --> 00:10:28,820
those outcomes.

294
00:10:28,859 --> 00:10:29,179
So.

295
00:10:29,789 --> 00:10:30,130
Crystal,

296
00:10:30,190 --> 00:10:30,859
thank you so much.

297
00:10:30,909 --> 00:10:32,510
I hope that that's helpful and

298
00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:34,979
struggle across the board for us

299
00:10:35,270 --> 00:10:38,849
when we know a kid is in the thick of stuff and time is up.

300
00:10:39,099 --> 00:10:39,309
I mean,

301
00:10:39,349 --> 00:10:40,390
it's almost like we,

302
00:10:40,409 --> 00:10:41,869
we feel it with them,

303
00:10:41,950 --> 00:10:42,070
like,

304
00:10:42,179 --> 00:10:42,780
oh gosh,

305
00:10:42,869 --> 00:10:44,609
like they need to be in here longer.

306
00:10:45,190 --> 00:10:45,619
So we,

307
00:10:45,630 --> 00:10:49,130
we make little tweaks along the way to do our best to accommodate that.

308
00:10:49,510 --> 00:10:49,989
All right y'all,

309
00:10:50,130 --> 00:10:50,559
I love you.

310
00:10:50,630 --> 00:10:51,390
Hope you have a great week.

311
00:10:51,419 --> 00:10:52,280
We'll talk again soon.

312
00:10:52,469 --> 00:10:52,669
Bye.

313
00:10:53,789 --> 00:10:56,590
Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.

314
00:10:56,750 --> 00:10:57,669
Brenna Hicks.

315
00:10:57,830 --> 00:10:59,789
For more episodes and resources,

316
00:10:59,909 --> 00:11:04,669
please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.