Secure Attachment & Recognizing Secure States of Mind with Ann & Sue (208)

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For those of you out there that we were
trying to distinguish between feeling

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secure and being secure.

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This is a good one because if
you are just feeling secure,

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then you think I don't need influence.
I'm confident I know what I mean.

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I know what it I, I say what
I mean, and I mean what I say.

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And I don't need somebody
else telling me what to do.

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I don't need somebody else
telling me how to raise my child.

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I don't need somebody
else. Fill in the blank.

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If that's what you're saying to yourself,

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I want you to realize that
that is you in a protective,

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insecure state because a secure way
of relating and a secure attachment,

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Juan says, I need
influence. I need others.

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There are a lot of people smarter than
me and there's a lot of people that I can

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help. And that is a
secure way of connection.

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Welcome to Therapist Uncensored, building
on decades of professional experience.

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This podcast tackles neurobiology,

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modern attachment and more in an honest
way that's helpful in healing humans.

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Your session begins now with
Dr. Ann Kelly and Sue Marriott.

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That's athletic
greens.com/therapist uncensored.

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Hey everyone, welcome back to Therapist
Uncensored. I am Anne Kelly and.

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I'm Sue Marriott. And we.

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Realize that we have done an
episode on the different types

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of insecure attachment
protection strategies,

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but we've never actually talked directly
or done a whole one on what is secure

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attachment.

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I like to call it secure protective
strategies and connective strategies,

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but what does secure attachment look like?

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So we decided to dedicate a whole
episode to security, which is great.

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Yeah, 'cause it's all bad
news. Always. Constantly. Yeah,

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we're always talking
<laugh>. So this'll be a,

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this'll be a feel good episode
because this is true that when we talk

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about security, it primes
security. It's true.

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So.

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Let's feel good together.

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I like it. And as we think about what
creates security, it gives us something.

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Many of you out there probably came from
the kind of background where you have a

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secure background and you have a secure
attachment. And some of us, I don't.

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Think that's true. <laugh>.

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<Laugh>. Well more the majority.

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I think everybody listening to this
podcast probably has some color in their

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history. <laugh>.

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Well that's true,

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but we can have lots of color in our
backgrounds and still have a secure base,

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right?

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You can have a secure base with pockets
of insecurity or you could have a

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background where you kinda live
more in your protective red or your

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more protective blue or tie dye. But
let's talk about what security looks like.

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What is a secure attachment about?

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So when Anne's mentioning
the red and the blue,

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the way that we talk about attachment
is we're bringing in out of the research

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categories of insecure and
secure or anything that's a box

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because human beings are complex
and even if you fit in that box,

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it doesn't matter because you're not
always there. So if I'm dismissing,

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I'm not always dismissive. So we
like to talk about it on a continuum.

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And we use colors that sort of
represent the feel of the defense.

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So she mentioned red is the upregulated,
like more anxious. Preoccupied.

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Means that you've kind of
learned that you have to kind of,

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your nervous system learns. It has to
stay on alert and emotionally aware,

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kind of emotionally intense. That's
where your protective system goes.

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When you hit stress.

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You hyper activate on the red side
and then on blue you hypo activates

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your attachment system turns down. So
that's why we, it's blue, it's cool.

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<laugh>, <laugh>. So we've
done podcasts on both of those.

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So green she mentioned,
which is the secure,

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and then tie dye she also mentioned,

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which is the folks that don't
fit quite in those, the others.

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And that's such a complicated
conversation around what used to be called

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disorganized. It's the least understood
category. We call it tie eye.

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It's a mix of things. A mix of
strategies. And we don't live in tie eye,

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but sometimes we can
get disorganized. And.

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What's important about not
living, including secure 'cause.

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We're gonna talk about
green and secure today.

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And we call it green because
it's kind of a ghost state.

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It's more of our open state.

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But these parts of our systems
get activated mostly during stress

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and stress when our attachment
system feels at threat.

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So we don't typically live
there. So this is like,

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you might find yourself living
in more of a secure place,

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but when you get activated you
end up leaning red or blue.

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Or you might find that your history has
been such that you kind of primarily

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remain more in one color or the next.

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So that's what you're meaning when you
say we don't just live in one or the

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other and different relationships
bring out different things.

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Right.

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And that's one of the cool things about
the spectrum that we talk about is we've

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got the map on the spectrum,

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which is where we live kind of more in
concrete patterns. So let's say that I'm,

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I live quote or I rest,

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my nervous system rests more blue
where I'm a little bit more zipped up,

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a little bit more independent. But when
I get upset, it doesn't mean I go blue.

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I might go more blue, but I also
might go red, I might go tie D,

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hopefully I'm staying in the green.
So yeah, there's a lot of flexibility.

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There's states and traits.
So living in something,

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what we don't really live
in it, but like, um, our,

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our more persistent pattern is a
represented by a map on the spectrum.

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And then the spectrum
itself is the states.

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And so green as a map or
as a state looks like what?

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So that's when our early
learning and our early

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experiences have generally
led us to believe that our

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environment is gonna be there for us.

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The people that are caretaking us are
gonna be there. They're trustworthy.

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We can kind of rely on them.

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They're there enough for us to feel safe,

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but not so much that we don't develop
our own sense of our own self,

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our own being, our own agency over time.

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So a secure way of relating, a
secure way of attachment says, man,

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my world's pretty trustworthy and so am I.

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I mean I used to joke about that secure
attachment was like Bigfoot, you know,

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everybody reports about
it and stuff like that.

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But have you ever really seen
one? But that actually isn't true.

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Generally more than 50% of
people will test as secure.

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It's always so confusing to talk about
because the testing is so different,

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right? Self-report is one thing versus
the unconscious limbic, you know,

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developmental attachment. But
especially if you're not very blue,

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then generally you're probably
more secure than you think you are.

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And that pans out so that
if you tend to go red,

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you know that you get preoccupied,
you know that you're in distress,

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you know that you have issues and you
might even think it's worse than it is.

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And if you tend to lean green,

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you will probably be aware
that you dysregulate and
that you do dumb things and

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that you act like a jerk
sometimes and stuff like that.

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Sometimes it's hard for us to
see our greenness <laugh>. Right?

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Right.

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Then if you tend to lean blue,

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you will likely overestimate your
security <laugh> and your green zone.

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Those would be taken with a
little bit of a grain of salt.

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Well, and that's been shown by research
that's not just Ann and Schisms,

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that if you run in the blue that you're
more likely to idolize some of your

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childhood rearing and to
overestimate your sense of security.

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And so that's why in this episode,

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we want all of you to kinda listen
to what really constitutes a secure

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attachment.

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'cause it might surprise you because
having a secure attachment base is not the

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same thing as feeling secure. It's not
confidence, it's not thinking, you know,

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more than everybody else around you.
So that's what, it's not what it is.

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It's the ability to maintain
connections, deep fulfilling connections.

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So somebody has a secure base,

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they rely on other people and they
feel confidence in themselves.

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So if somebody feels so confident in
themselves that they can't rely on other

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people,

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that's likely means that their nervous
system is actually not in this place of

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trust. So a secure connection,
a secure attachment,

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trust other people,

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they trust themselves and they
feel comfortable having closeness.

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That's a real key.

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Yeah, that's a good one. You know,

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the word that comes to my mind with
security is the word integration.

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And Dan Siegel talks about this
from a neurological standpoint,

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but integration of thoughts and feelings,

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integration of brain and body integration
of top of the brain and bottom of the

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brain, left of the brain, left
hemisphere, right hemisphere, limbic,

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higher cortical. The idea
being that there's a balance.

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Anne and I have talked a lot about
the connection and protection systems,

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the connection system being the
green stuff that we're talking about,

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the protection system being
the other. We need both,

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but we need them to cooperate. <laugh>.
We don't want our protection system,

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you know,

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elbowing over our goodwill to
protect us when we don't want it

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overreacting. Or once we do get
safe after we're threatened,

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we want the green to come
back online pretty quickly.

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So basically security means that there's
a cooperation and integration between

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our protection system and our
connection system. How's that?

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That was great. I loved it. <laugh>.

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Look, I a, I asked for feedback.
<laugh> isn't that, isn't that secure?

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That's a sign of secure actually.

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And you gave and you gave a compliment.
<laugh>, that's also a sign of secure.

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<Laugh>. That's so true. Actually.

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That is literally a sign that you're
kind of in your protective state.

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If you can't tell somebody
you did a good job or well,

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let's put it in a sign of security. I
keep going to what's red and what's blue.

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I mean, I need to-ing I
know it's so easy to do.

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So let's say a sign of
security, a sign of a,

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a secure attachment is that the
connection to somebody else doesn't feel

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threatening. So that means being able
to give them a sense of yourself,

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giving them a compliment, being
able to join feels more natural.

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It's not threatening. Now,

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intellectually it can sound
like I like to join people,

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I go out and have beers with my
friends. Right? The question is,

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are you joining?

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Think about the idea of joining means
like somebody's in there having a,

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telling a success that they have.
What does it make you feel inside?

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It's natural sometimes to
feel a little bit of jealousy,

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but when you're in a
secure base of attachment,

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you can really feel joy for the other
person and you can join them. You can say,

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that is amazing. You did such a great job.

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It doesn't hit a threat button where
you're ready to tell your own story before

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they finish telling theirs.

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So a sign of integration is
that you can hold yourself,

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you own sense of self-worth while
somebody else is experiencing theirs.

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It's not a competition.

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Oh, I think you said
that so well, thank you.

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Like.

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<Laugh> <laugh>. I wasn't even joking.
I I actually really did mean that.

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I thought that came out really great.

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<Laugh>.

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What I would just add to that
is kind of the other way too.

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So I think this idea of joining is really
important because there is a way that

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you have to set yourself
aside for a second.

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So let's say you're telling me
about Covid. Oh my god, I got Covid.

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And you begin to talk about
it. And if I say, man,

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when I had covid da da da da or I've
never had covid or, or you know,

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John had covid and he like,

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if I command the attention
and pull it back to myself,

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that's not joining.

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But what would be joining would
be you're saying you have covid.

226
00:12:31,580 --> 00:12:35,270
And so then I stick with you and I
might say, oh my God, how do you feel?

227
00:12:35,530 --> 00:12:37,870
How do you think you got it? What
are you doing? What do you need?

228
00:12:37,870 --> 00:12:40,230
Like in other words, things keep
going back and keep going back.

229
00:12:40,230 --> 00:12:44,670
And I try to help and build out her
narrative, but I do that freely.

230
00:12:44,670 --> 00:12:48,750
Like it's not hurting me. Or even if I
can't wait to tell her how bad I had it,

231
00:12:49,130 --> 00:12:52,990
I'm able to hold that so that I've joined
her and given her the experience of

232
00:12:52,990 --> 00:12:54,830
feeling heard and feeling cared for.

233
00:12:55,010 --> 00:12:57,350
That's perfect. Let's talk
about that just for one second.

234
00:12:57,450 --> 00:13:01,230
In terms of neural integration, 'cause
you just mentioned the word integration.

235
00:13:01,460 --> 00:13:03,990
What does that have to do with
what you just said? And that is,

236
00:13:04,210 --> 00:13:06,430
for me to sit and hold your story,

237
00:13:07,350 --> 00:13:11,910
I have to hold what is might be active
in my body that if I don't have attention

238
00:13:12,050 --> 00:13:12,690
I'm dropped.

239
00:13:12,690 --> 00:13:17,030
Or if I don't ma like there's all sorts
of insecurity that could be coming up in

240
00:13:17,030 --> 00:13:18,150
me that I don't recognize,

241
00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:20,750
which makes me dominate and
take over and tell my own story.

242
00:13:21,250 --> 00:13:24,990
An integration of this is you exist
and I exist in the same light.

243
00:13:25,450 --> 00:13:27,790
So when you are talking, I actually,

244
00:13:27,790 --> 00:13:31,950
my body feels relaxed and able to join
you because I'm not in protection,

245
00:13:31,970 --> 00:13:32,803
I'm not in fear.

246
00:13:33,250 --> 00:13:36,390
And so I wanna help people feel that
in their body as they're talking.

247
00:13:36,650 --> 00:13:38,670
If somebody's talking,
do you feel activated?

248
00:13:38,690 --> 00:13:40,150
Do you feel distracted with your thoughts?

249
00:13:40,540 --> 00:13:43,870
Because if it's really hard to do that,

250
00:13:43,930 --> 00:13:47,790
it might be sign a sign that you're
having a hard time staying in your more

251
00:13:47,790 --> 00:13:49,390
secure related place.

252
00:13:50,380 --> 00:13:53,190
Like the other side of that
would be like you're, you know,

253
00:13:53,190 --> 00:13:54,110
we're talking about domination.

254
00:13:54,170 --> 00:13:57,270
The other would be that I'm gonna ask
questions and ask questions and ask

255
00:13:57,390 --> 00:13:58,270
questions and ask
questions. Oh, good point.

256
00:13:58,370 --> 00:14:01,270
So that I don't have to talk
about myself. And that when they,

257
00:14:01,340 --> 00:14:03,950
with the attention turns
and everyone, every,

258
00:14:03,970 --> 00:14:06,270
all eyes are on me and I'm
supposed to share something.

259
00:14:06,270 --> 00:14:07,270
Mm-hmm <affirmative> that,

260
00:14:07,270 --> 00:14:12,070
that's very frightening because
that I have learned to kind of get

261
00:14:12,070 --> 00:14:15,510
small and disappear and make other people
big and make other people feel good.

262
00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,470
Again, we're not trying to
say kind of how that that's,

263
00:14:18,970 --> 00:14:23,390
but the idea would be when the attention
turned to me going back to secure is

264
00:14:23,390 --> 00:14:24,270
that, you know,

265
00:14:24,270 --> 00:14:27,590
it's not like I'm not gonna feel
awkward or that I might not get squirmy,

266
00:14:27,730 --> 00:14:32,430
but the idea is that the feeling is more
manageable and then I can take the mic

267
00:14:32,530 --> 00:14:33,030
so to speak,

268
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:36,790
or I can take the time or I can take
the attention or I can take my turn.

269
00:14:37,290 --> 00:14:40,550
That's actually another good one is
turn taking that there's a natural turn

270
00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:41,630
taking in conversation.

271
00:14:42,130 --> 00:14:46,590
And the turn taking is about being able
to be sensitive and attuned. Right?

272
00:14:46,790 --> 00:14:51,720
A big sign of secure attachment is
the ability to be attuned to others,

273
00:14:51,910 --> 00:14:55,960
attuned to self and attuned to
others. So when you're turn taking,

274
00:14:56,460 --> 00:15:01,360
you're able to be attuned to their needs
and your body feels alive and alert

275
00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:04,560
for them. It's not just holding your
breath. 'cause sometimes in turn taking,

276
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,800
we're holding our breath, okay,
you take a turn, we're just.

277
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,000
Waiting for a turn. <laugh>. Exactly.

278
00:15:08,090 --> 00:15:11,560
We're turn taking, but if you're holding
your breath waiting for your turn,

279
00:15:11,820 --> 00:15:15,440
it probably means that you're
not sort of completely present.

280
00:15:15,540 --> 00:15:16,840
So a secure attachment,

281
00:15:17,180 --> 00:15:21,920
you're able to stay because
your body feels more trust,

282
00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:23,920
you're living more in
your connection system.

283
00:15:23,940 --> 00:15:27,240
That's what secure attachment's about.
So if I'm in my connection system,

284
00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:30,560
then I'm actually interested.
I'm not just turn taking,

285
00:15:30,780 --> 00:15:34,240
I'm actually interested in what
you're saying is lighting me up.

286
00:15:34,470 --> 00:15:38,040
It's making me think of things I've not
thought about or I'm learning about you.

287
00:15:38,460 --> 00:15:42,640
And so the desire to know somebody,
the desire to tune in without,

288
00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:43,473
like you said before,

289
00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:47,360
disappearing is a sign that we're
in our secure attached self.

290
00:15:48,170 --> 00:15:53,160
Let's say you're going on and on or
you're saying something really big and I

291
00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:57,250
notice that I begin to feel envy
or say I notice disinterest.

292
00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,610
Like I'm like, oh my god,
she's going on and on <laugh>.

293
00:16:01,150 --> 00:16:03,930
So I don't wanna make secure
like Pollyanna. Oh good point.

294
00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:05,130
Keep going. 'cause that's so.

295
00:16:05,130 --> 00:16:06,530
True, right? It's not Pollyanna.

296
00:16:06,530 --> 00:16:11,050
Because maybe you're the secure attached
one and I am going on and on and on and

297
00:16:11,230 --> 00:16:12,290
on. You're really aware of that.

298
00:16:13,430 --> 00:16:14,730
And and I'm aware and but,

299
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:19,750
but rather than either letting
myself get flooded or interrupting

300
00:16:19,770 --> 00:16:20,630
and just cutting, you know,

301
00:16:20,630 --> 00:16:24,470
just stopping the situation
basically I have more bandwidth.

302
00:16:24,950 --> 00:16:29,670
I can think God Anne's really excited
about this <laugh>, she's going on and on.

303
00:16:29,740 --> 00:16:30,590
What is going on?

304
00:16:30,780 --> 00:16:33,230
Like I can have that conversation
in my mind because you also have.

305
00:16:33,230 --> 00:16:33,750
Curiosity.

306
00:16:33,750 --> 00:16:35,990
Which would then Exactly,
which would help me amplify.

307
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:37,150
Like if you're really
excited about something,

308
00:16:37,150 --> 00:16:38,390
then I'm gonna ask you
even more questions. Like,

309
00:16:38,390 --> 00:16:41,670
I'm gonna help you show off this
beautiful thing that you're talking about.

310
00:16:42,130 --> 00:16:45,750
I'm paying attention to what's going on
with you that you're going on and on.

311
00:16:45,850 --> 00:16:49,150
But I'm also paying attention to
me like by being curious about you,

312
00:16:49,150 --> 00:16:50,670
that is taking care of me to some degree.

313
00:16:51,290 --> 00:16:54,070
Or let's just say you're just being
narcissistic and taking over the

314
00:16:54,070 --> 00:16:56,350
conversation <laugh>.
And I notice I'm like,

315
00:16:56,350 --> 00:16:59,390
oh she's really not tending
to me at all. Again,

316
00:16:59,390 --> 00:17:03,230
we wanna more talk about states. If
I'm in a more secure state of mind,

317
00:17:04,060 --> 00:17:08,750
then I'll be more likely to be able to
respond either by whatever I wanna do may

318
00:17:08,750 --> 00:17:11,750
do. I have the energy to
push in. Uh, let's see,

319
00:17:11,890 --> 00:17:15,070
I'm gonna insert myself and
really begin talking about myself.

320
00:17:15,070 --> 00:17:16,510
So it'll give her
something to ask me about.

321
00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:21,910
Basically I'll have a range of ways to
take up my fair share of the talking

322
00:17:21,910 --> 00:17:24,790
time and not expect her to, you know,

323
00:17:24,810 --> 00:17:27,590
not be waiting and keep going to the back
of the line. 'cause she keeps talking.

324
00:17:27,590 --> 00:17:31,230
Well that's allowing myself to be
dominated when I'm in a secure state.

325
00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:33,790
Maybe I even get mad, maybe I'm pissed,

326
00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:36,430
but that doesn't mean I'm
not in a secure state.

327
00:17:36,610 --> 00:17:40,670
It means I'm noticing my feelings and
then thinking about what to do about them

328
00:17:41,130 --> 00:17:43,310
and how to best respond rather than react.

329
00:17:43,490 --> 00:17:45,070
Oh, I love that. Well you know,

330
00:17:45,070 --> 00:17:48,430
you keep bringing up secure state and
we're talking about a secure attachment.

331
00:17:48,630 --> 00:17:51,520
I like that. Let's talk about
how those relate. Because

332
00:17:53,020 --> 00:17:57,680
we mentioned 50% more than 50% out
there likely have a secure attachment

333
00:17:57,790 --> 00:18:00,720
base and others don't.
But that doesn't mean.

334
00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:02,920
Right, depending on the population,
depending on the country,

335
00:18:02,980 --> 00:18:04,400
all the things but Right. Yeah,

336
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,320
there's a lot of securely attached
people that will score even on, you know,

337
00:18:08,420 --> 00:18:11,520
the AI and the ones that
look at the unconscious.

338
00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:13,680
So if I have a secure base,

339
00:18:13,680 --> 00:18:15,880
that doesn't mean I'm always
in a secure relating moment.

340
00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:19,680
I could like be having a really crappy
day or a month or I've been in a

341
00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,160
relationship for a period of time that
my body's completely activated in more of

342
00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:23,993
a blue red,

343
00:18:24,420 --> 00:18:28,920
or maybe I don't live
as much in the green,

344
00:18:29,180 --> 00:18:31,840
but I can be in a secure relating moment.

345
00:18:32,340 --> 00:18:34,480
So that's why we love to
talk about the continuum,

346
00:18:34,590 --> 00:18:39,440
both state and attachment
base because no matter

347
00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:43,440
where we live in our more
embedded attachment strategy,

348
00:18:44,730 --> 00:18:49,350
we can always work to relate in
a more secure way. Every day,

349
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:51,110
every moment. And as we do,

350
00:18:51,810 --> 00:18:55,750
we do actually light up our more
secure related attachment style.

351
00:18:55,770 --> 00:18:59,150
We can move it, we can
become less red, less blue,

352
00:18:59,210 --> 00:19:03,870
and more green in our overall
attachment strategies as we age.

353
00:19:04,090 --> 00:19:07,030
The more we engage in secure
relating ways of being.

354
00:19:07,490 --> 00:19:12,230
And you don't even need therapy. You
know, like really good relationships.

355
00:19:13,030 --> 00:19:16,640
There's lots of ways to move your
map towards green. Many, many ways.

356
00:19:17,460 --> 00:19:21,600
And another thing I was thinking
was just going back for a minute and

357
00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:24,800
some of the conditions
that promote security,

358
00:19:25,750 --> 00:19:29,320
that typically kids that
end up with a secure map,

359
00:19:29,780 --> 00:19:34,000
or we might call it internal working
model or a pattern of security in their

360
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,200
nervous system and integration,

361
00:19:35,390 --> 00:19:40,080
typically have had parents that often
are secure themselves or have done a lot

362
00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,880
of work to earn it to themselves
or that they've just learned the

363
00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,240
skills. 'cause you can have a secure
child even if you're not secure.

364
00:19:48,290 --> 00:19:49,320
Isn't that great news? That.

365
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:50,200
Is great news. Yeah.

366
00:19:50,750 --> 00:19:53,200
Yeah. But they typically
will be responsive.

367
00:19:53,650 --> 00:19:56,400
First thing is they'll be protective.
That's the very first thing.

368
00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:59,640
They'll be communicative,
they'll be available,

369
00:20:00,350 --> 00:20:01,800
they'll be attuned.

370
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,080
You're talking about the parenting,
um, promotes, I'm talking.

371
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,680
About the parent promotes, right?
That promotes right attunement,

372
00:20:07,810 --> 00:20:09,360
which means accurate attunement.

373
00:20:09,460 --> 00:20:13,240
So instead of the child picks
up a guitar and you know,

374
00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,000
I take the guitar to show them
how great of a guitar player I am.

375
00:20:16,180 --> 00:20:18,720
That's not attunement. Even
though you think, oh look,

376
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:20,360
I'm playing it with my
kid with the guitar.

377
00:20:20,380 --> 00:20:22,880
What's attunement is that the
kid wanted to play the guitar.

378
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,400
I remember when you were playing
the violin with our niece,

379
00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:31,560
our niece's niece, no, our niece's
child who, what would that be?

380
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,200
A second niece? Anyway,

381
00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:38,080
you were so good at meeting her where she
was, even though you knew how to play.

382
00:20:38,990 --> 00:20:42,250
And she would pick it up like I was
like cringing that like she's picking up

383
00:20:42,250 --> 00:20:44,690
this nice instrument and she
was young, you know what I mean?

384
00:20:44,690 --> 00:20:49,360
And like banging it around and stuff
and you were just letting her do it and

385
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:52,440
letting her kind of struggle with it
and letting her find the bow and letting

386
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,960
her find the strings. That's attunement.
What I was doing was not attunement,

387
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,680
<laugh> <laugh>, I was feeling more
protective of the, of the violin. Um, not,

388
00:21:01,880 --> 00:21:04,120
I mean, not really. I was so happy
that you were able to do that.

389
00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:07,120
Hopefully if I had been alone, I
would've been right there with you.

390
00:21:07,540 --> 00:21:11,560
But you already had that part down.
But anyways, uh, soothed, protected,

391
00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:13,810
being attuned. The, uh, oh,

392
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:18,450
the other really big part of
promoting security is promoting the

393
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:23,530
mind of the child separate from your
own. So it's not just closeness,

394
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,970
it's also when the child gets ready
to be put down, you put them down.

395
00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:31,050
Even when the infant looks away, you
don't force them to look at you. You,

396
00:21:31,150 --> 00:21:34,410
you let them take a break in their
eye with their eyes and their face.

397
00:21:35,030 --> 00:21:38,050
But the child is, you know,
wanting a little alone time.

398
00:21:38,110 --> 00:21:40,490
If you're lonely then you've gotta
just deal with your loneliness.

399
00:21:40,610 --> 00:21:44,570
I remember one time I looked over
the crib at my sleeping child

400
00:21:45,550 --> 00:21:50,410
and I literally thought he
wants me to pick him up <laugh>,

401
00:21:52,140 --> 00:21:55,050
which is re absurd, right?
Because he's asleep, he's happy,

402
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,170
like don't bother him. And so I was able
to catch, no, I want to pick him up.

403
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:03,770
This is my desire, not his desire. So
that's an example of, you know, like,

404
00:22:03,770 --> 00:22:06,650
okay, if I had just picked him up and
thought he needed to be picked up,

405
00:22:06,650 --> 00:22:07,850
you know, we can exaggerate that.

406
00:22:07,930 --> 00:22:11,130
I mean we could extrapolate that
into other ways that that manifests.

407
00:22:11,310 --> 00:22:15,730
But point being it's like whose need
is it and the attunement is actually

408
00:22:15,970 --> 00:22:20,010
accurate and that we're supporting the
child's exploration and they're going

409
00:22:20,010 --> 00:22:22,730
away and their separateness
as much as we're supporting,

410
00:22:22,730 --> 00:22:26,010
they're coming close and refueling
with us. That's a good way to say it.

411
00:22:38,620 --> 00:22:43,400
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412
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413
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414
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415
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416
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422
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423
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437
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438
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439
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440
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441
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442
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443
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478
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483
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493
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50 for 50% off plus free
shipping. Another way.

494
00:27:18,170 --> 00:27:19,610
Sometimes that attachment,

495
00:27:20,630 --> 00:27:24,970
the idea of attachment out there has
almost made parents nervous to set a

496
00:27:25,210 --> 00:27:26,650
boundary, to set a limit. It's like, oh,

497
00:27:26,750 --> 00:27:29,370
I'm supposed to be perfectly
attuned to this child and they need,

498
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,330
that is not attachment,
that is not security.

499
00:27:32,950 --> 00:27:37,250
The world is hard and we are helping
them develop a protection and connection

500
00:27:37,250 --> 00:27:39,730
system in the real world as it exists.

501
00:27:40,310 --> 00:27:44,330
Not in some ideal world that's perfectly
attuned to them because the world will

502
00:27:44,330 --> 00:27:47,210
not be perfectly attuned
to your child or to you.

503
00:27:47,830 --> 00:27:49,970
And if we think it's
supposed to be that way,

504
00:27:49,970 --> 00:27:52,690
then we chronically feel
a sense of being let down,

505
00:27:52,970 --> 00:27:55,130
a sense of being
disappointed. So ironically,

506
00:27:55,130 --> 00:27:59,690
sometimes we can create more
insecurity by having the child

507
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,730
believe that they should
never be disappointed or
that I need to be preoccupied

508
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,210
with all their needs and make sure
that they never have a disappointing

509
00:28:07,490 --> 00:28:08,570
vacation. Because if they do,

510
00:28:08,570 --> 00:28:11,810
they experience a feeling
of disappointment or loss.

511
00:28:12,470 --> 00:28:16,090
So part of securely relating to
that child is letting them have that

512
00:28:16,090 --> 00:28:20,170
disappointment, connecting with them
and being able to go, that is rough.

513
00:28:20,470 --> 00:28:23,290
You really did wanna do that. Ooh.
And we couldn't do that. That is hard.

514
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:24,473
It's.

515
00:28:24,790 --> 00:28:28,610
But when we say attunement, we don't
wanna have the message be, you know,

516
00:28:29,050 --> 00:28:29,850
matching mirrors. It's.

517
00:28:29,850 --> 00:28:31,610
Not merger. It is not merger.

518
00:28:31,780 --> 00:28:36,690
Which is also true. Now let's go back to
secure relating attachment as an adult.

519
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,330
That many of what we were just saying
about parenting is also true about your

520
00:28:42,330 --> 00:28:45,010
primary relationship. Obviously
there's some differences,

521
00:28:45,070 --> 00:28:47,530
but what are secure relating?

522
00:28:47,530 --> 00:28:50,410
Secure attachment is in
a primary relationship.

523
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,890
It's that you can hold yourself and
allow somebody to feel disappointment,

524
00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:59,820
but feel compassion and care for them
and stay connected to that rather

525
00:28:59,820 --> 00:29:03,660
than I have to disappear to meet their
needs or they have to disappear to meet

526
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:04,753
my needs.

527
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,580
So a secure attachment is we both
have needs and we can both deal

528
00:29:09,580 --> 00:29:13,020
with the, with the competition of needs
in a way that's loving and caring.

529
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,940
You know? And I think the
key to that is, is mutuality.

530
00:29:17,650 --> 00:29:22,580
Like neither relationship,
and again, this is a dyad,

531
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,860
it might be a sister or a friend or a,

532
00:29:26,940 --> 00:29:28,700
a polyamorous relationship.
It doesn't matter.

533
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:34,660
The idea being that there is
mutuality and even if you're,

534
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,060
you mutually agree to different roles
and things like that, that's fine.

535
00:29:38,060 --> 00:29:41,760
But still the base is
you have an equal voice,

536
00:29:42,290 --> 00:29:46,680
which means that we allow ourselves
to influence our partner or our close

537
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:47,513
person.

538
00:29:48,260 --> 00:29:53,080
And both we also allow ourselves
to be influenced and probably

539
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:56,160
most of us have, it's easier to do
one than the other <laugh>. Yeah.

540
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:57,800
Actually for, that's
a great way to put it.

541
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,440
So let's just take a second
out there and think about it.

542
00:30:01,750 --> 00:30:03,760
Like take a moment before we keep going.

543
00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:09,850
How comfortable are you being
influenced by somebody and how

544
00:30:09,850 --> 00:30:13,970
comfortable are you influencing?
Because that is a real sign of security.

545
00:30:14,030 --> 00:30:17,890
So those of you out there that like, I
need to take a committee all the time.

546
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,450
Like if I'm in the middle of
always needing to take a committee,

547
00:30:20,670 --> 00:30:24,730
I'm having a hard time knowing that I can
actually influence others and they can

548
00:30:24,730 --> 00:30:25,563
be let down.

549
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:26,690
Right?

550
00:30:26,690 --> 00:30:31,350
So take a committee you mean making a
decision and declaring yourself without a

551
00:30:31,350 --> 00:30:32,070
focus group, without.

552
00:30:32,070 --> 00:30:35,230
A focus group. How does everybody
else think of that? Right, exactly.

553
00:30:35,850 --> 00:30:40,830
And and so the opposite is also true
for those of you out there that we were

554
00:30:40,830 --> 00:30:44,470
trying to distinguish between
feeling secure and being secure.

555
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:47,750
This is a good one because if
you are just feeling secure,

556
00:30:47,750 --> 00:30:50,270
then you think I don't need influence.
I'm confident I know what I mean.

557
00:30:50,350 --> 00:30:50,990
I know what it I,

558
00:30:50,990 --> 00:30:54,630
I say what I mean and I mean what I say
and I don't need somebody else telling

559
00:30:54,630 --> 00:30:57,510
me what to do. I don't need somebody
else telling me how to raise my child.

560
00:30:58,030 --> 00:31:00,910
I don't need somebody
else. Fill in the blank.

561
00:31:01,730 --> 00:31:03,550
If that's what you're saying to yourself,

562
00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:07,910
I want you to realize that that is
you in a protective, insecure state.

563
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:12,690
Because a secure way of relating
and a secure attachment, Juan says,

564
00:31:12,730 --> 00:31:14,450
I need influence, I need others.

565
00:31:15,140 --> 00:31:18,850
There are a lot of people smarter than
me and there's a lot of people that I can

566
00:31:18,850 --> 00:31:21,920
help. And that is a
secure way of connection.

567
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:23,593
I love that. I,

568
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:28,760
I think that's great and and there's
even research showing that the less

569
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,880
influenced that you are, in other words,

570
00:31:32,020 --> 00:31:37,000
the more power that you have in a
organization or in a family anywhere,

571
00:31:37,420 --> 00:31:38,680
the more power you have,

572
00:31:39,740 --> 00:31:44,600
it causes changes in your brain
similar to a traumatic brain injury.

573
00:31:45,500 --> 00:31:49,880
And the reason is that when we're not
being given live feedback about how we're

574
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:50,540
coming across.

575
00:31:50,540 --> 00:31:54,120
You mean like, so if you're in a
position of power where people,

576
00:31:54,340 --> 00:31:55,520
you don't have to take influence,

577
00:31:55,540 --> 00:31:58,480
you get to give directions and you get
to tell people what to do. That's right.

578
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,680
But you don't really have to take any
feedback unless of course you pay for it

579
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,680
over there in a consultation. That's
kind of what you're speaking of.

580
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:06,480
I don't have to take influence. And.

581
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,320
It's a combination. It's not just
that people stop giving influence,

582
00:32:10,860 --> 00:32:14,280
but it's also that the person in
power, let's say if I'm the C E O,

583
00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:19,880
not only do I have fewer and
fewer people give me live feedback

584
00:32:20,110 --> 00:32:22,960
that is different than maybe
what I think, you know,

585
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,400
that's more challenging to me. But
that I need, that begins to reduce,

586
00:32:27,220 --> 00:32:30,960
but also my reading the room reduces.

587
00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:32,640
Your ability to read the room.

588
00:32:32,950 --> 00:32:36,200
Yeah, well the um, there's actual
changes in the mirror neuron systems.

589
00:32:37,060 --> 00:32:39,680
You know how like if I see someone cringe,

590
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,680
I know the feeling of that because
I can feel the internal cringe.

591
00:32:43,780 --> 00:32:46,120
The more power you have,
the less that you fire.

592
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:49,360
When you see emotion in
other people, you typically,

593
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:53,000
you begin to reduce requesting feedback,
you begin to reduce getting it.

594
00:32:53,060 --> 00:32:54,720
But then even just neurologically,

595
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:59,400
you begin to miss signs around
you that are being conveyed

596
00:32:59,980 --> 00:33:02,760
and that that is actually
really damaging you.

597
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:04,760
You begin to lose function basically.

598
00:33:05,180 --> 00:33:07,120
And you're much more prone
to make bad decisions.

599
00:33:07,630 --> 00:33:10,120
It's not like the higher
up you go the better it is.

600
00:33:10,150 --> 00:33:13,320
It's actually you're more and more
and more vulnerable to, you know,

601
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,560
we've talked about, we've talked
about close relationships.

602
00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:17,080
Buffering is from stress.

603
00:33:17,790 --> 00:33:20,400
Well the higher you go and if
you're not turning to people,

604
00:33:20,670 --> 00:33:24,240
just like you said earlier, if
I don't think I need anyone, I,

605
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:29,240
my body's gonna be actually in more
stress, I might bypass it, but you put uh,

606
00:33:29,390 --> 00:33:34,200
skin galvanizing response or if you look
at other physiological signs of stress,

607
00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:35,703
it's up there.

608
00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:39,280
So this notion of having influence and
being influenced is really important. So.

609
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,880
Is it's kind of like if you don't use it,
you lose it if you don't use it. Yeah.

610
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,040
And, and you think about that, so you
might feel that might feel good, right?

611
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,280
You don't ever have to take influence
on some level it can feel powerful and

612
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:50,200
that can be, you don't.

613
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:50,960
You don't care what they think.

614
00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:52,000
Right? And that's the,

615
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,240
the sense of us needing power instead
of connection is a sign of insecurity.

616
00:33:56,300 --> 00:34:00,560
So when we are thriving on
power at a cost of connection

617
00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:05,860
and empowerment, we are suffering
and our relationships are suffering.

618
00:34:05,860 --> 00:34:10,780
So take that exact person whose sense
of mere neurons have turned down

619
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,540
the ability to respond to the emotions
of others and put them in a relationship

620
00:34:15,540 --> 00:34:18,340
with somebody or a parent to somebody.

621
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:23,500
And you could see how that is gonna
really negatively impact those

622
00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:25,980
connections and how you relate.

623
00:34:26,210 --> 00:34:29,820
Yeah. And if you're not sure,
then check in with your kids.

624
00:34:30,130 --> 00:34:34,100
Like if you know that you kind of are
in a little bit of that more influential

625
00:34:34,390 --> 00:34:38,060
power position, there's two things.
One is check in with people,

626
00:34:38,210 --> 00:34:42,060
like really actively see how your kids
are feeling with you and don't accept

627
00:34:42,060 --> 00:34:44,860
their first thing. I'm fine, everything's
fine, it's good. Well I don't know,

628
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:45,760
you know what I mean?

629
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,380
But really see if you can get them to
open up and really let you know kind of

630
00:34:49,380 --> 00:34:51,220
what they need more of,
what they need less of.

631
00:34:51,220 --> 00:34:54,740
Like really try to grease those
wheels. So that's one thing.

632
00:34:54,740 --> 00:34:55,820
But the other thing would be,

633
00:34:55,830 --> 00:35:00,580
especially if you're just kind of
in that kind of unfair advantage

634
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,740
on top of a pile, like the
king of the hill sort of thing.

635
00:35:03,740 --> 00:35:08,260
If you're way up there from in
an entertainment or in your work,

636
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:14,060
be sure and keep people around you that
<laugh> will tell you how it really is.

637
00:35:14,450 --> 00:35:16,820
Like you need your gestures if you will.

638
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,820
You need the people who will be honest
with you and tune into them and you

639
00:35:20,820 --> 00:35:24,220
should really listen to them because
what they have to say is very valuable.

640
00:35:24,220 --> 00:35:25,700
Even if you don't agree with them,

641
00:35:26,410 --> 00:35:28,820
they're speaking for
larger group most likely.

642
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:30,260
And if you ha But.

643
00:35:30,260 --> 00:35:32,700
Anyway, here we, we've just
drifted into talking about, uh,

644
00:35:32,980 --> 00:35:36,300
<laugh> not secure relating
I I agree. I heard that.

645
00:35:36,300 --> 00:35:37,280
But I was gonna turn it.

646
00:35:37,580 --> 00:35:41,040
So if you're listening to this
podcast and you're relating to that,

647
00:35:41,460 --> 00:35:43,640
you're reflecting and you're thinking,

648
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,880
I really do need to ask some people about
this. I really need to check myself.

649
00:35:48,300 --> 00:35:52,120
The chances are you're probably in a
more secure relating way if you're out

650
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:56,040
there going, eh, forget it. Right? So
if you're out there going, oh my God,

651
00:35:56,140 --> 00:35:59,960
I'm really curious about whether
I do that. I'm really curious.

652
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:00,953
I wanna ask people,

653
00:36:00,980 --> 00:36:05,720
do you feel like you get to influence me
If you're willing to ask that question

654
00:36:06,380 --> 00:36:10,200
and you're willing to be curious
about the answer and open to it,

655
00:36:10,220 --> 00:36:12,160
you're already in a more green position.

656
00:36:13,020 --> 00:36:17,280
Rather than the yes no, I would
say on a scale of one to 10,

657
00:36:18,260 --> 00:36:23,120
how influenceable am I or something Or
how free do you feel to influence me

658
00:36:23,580 --> 00:36:25,360
so that you won't get the yes no. Right?

659
00:36:25,820 --> 00:36:28,760
And then the other thing is that
if you're in a partnership with,

660
00:36:28,940 --> 00:36:31,520
in whatever way that partnership,
you know, friend, whatever,

661
00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:35,160
if you're close with someone
who yields more power,

662
00:36:36,190 --> 00:36:39,960
then hear this. They need the
information you're holding.

663
00:36:40,580 --> 00:36:44,520
It does not help them for you to not
say and to not give them live feedback

664
00:36:44,890 --> 00:36:48,240
about how they spoke to the waiter or
whatever the thing is that you're not

665
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:51,840
saying like you're holding information
that really belongs to the both of you

666
00:36:52,110 --> 00:36:52,943
that they need.

667
00:36:53,180 --> 00:36:57,760
So we wanna really encourage you to take
your fair share of the influence and to

668
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,680
see if you can find your authentic
voice, your right sized voice,

669
00:37:00,820 --> 00:37:05,720
not on your tiptoes and not crunch
down, but just your voice. Say it,

670
00:37:05,740 --> 00:37:07,840
say it proud. I mean
this is security, right?

671
00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:12,240
And allow them to have their feelings and
talked about disappointment earlier or

672
00:37:12,430 --> 00:37:15,320
offense or whatever it is. Allow
them to have their feelings.

673
00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:18,600
It's not your responsibility, but
you're gonna stay connected to them.

674
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:20,320
Oh you know, it's a little
hard to get that feedback.

675
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,520
It was a little embarrassing for
them to get caught doing that.

676
00:37:23,220 --> 00:37:26,280
And you're connected to yourself,
which is, wow, that was hard to say.

677
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:28,480
Good job that you got it
out and you said it. Those.

678
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:31,400
Are all really clear signs
of being more in the green,

679
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,010
A more secure way of relating,
being able to hold that i,

680
00:37:35,130 --> 00:37:39,370
I was thinking of another one and
that is being in a relationship, we,

681
00:37:39,370 --> 00:37:43,130
we keep talking about being connected
to people and being able to receive

682
00:37:43,130 --> 00:37:44,490
influence and give influence.

683
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:49,350
There's this idea of also
feeling like I can be close with

684
00:37:49,670 --> 00:37:53,310
somebody and not lose my identity
or lose my sense of self.

685
00:37:53,410 --> 00:37:56,070
And I think that's a real
sign of secure relating.

686
00:37:56,070 --> 00:38:00,830
And that is I can feel close and I
don't feel threatened that my sense of

687
00:38:00,830 --> 00:38:02,350
independence is gonna be lost.

688
00:38:02,990 --> 00:38:05,870
I can be close and I don't give myself up.

689
00:38:06,070 --> 00:38:09,790
I don't fear engulfment and
I don't fear loss of self.

690
00:38:10,410 --> 00:38:12,310
And so a secure relating individual says,

691
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:14,230
oh I can be close to you
and I can really enjoy it.

692
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:16,670
But I also have my independence
though they both, it's an and.

693
00:38:17,350 --> 00:38:18,390
I love that. And you know,

694
00:38:18,390 --> 00:38:23,210
I was just thinking we should think
about it inside ourselves and by

695
00:38:23,210 --> 00:38:25,970
secure and by the green. We're
talking about ventral vagal.

696
00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:28,490
We're talking about our
higher functioning mind,

697
00:38:28,540 --> 00:38:32,970
we're talking about oxytocin and we've
talked in other podcasts about being able

698
00:38:32,970 --> 00:38:36,440
to identify are you in that
state or connection system
or our protection system.

699
00:38:36,780 --> 00:38:41,200
So for me, again, I mean and this is
like everybody, like I will assume,

700
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,840
I will think I'm in the green state
more than I probably am <laugh>.

701
00:38:45,380 --> 00:38:47,960
But when we're actually activated,
when we're actually activated,

702
00:38:47,980 --> 00:38:51,920
we often don't know that we're activated
because we have these distortions that

703
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:56,280
happen. So for me it's like
there really is like a physical,

704
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:58,040
I can feel, uh,

705
00:38:58,220 --> 00:39:03,120
my heart sometimes I even imagine like
a line that goes between my heart to the

706
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,280
other person's heart. That's a
really good sign for me, <laugh>.

707
00:39:06,740 --> 00:39:11,520
And another one for me is pace that
when I'm in a more secure state,

708
00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,160
like I'm back in my spinal
cord, like I'm further back.

709
00:39:15,350 --> 00:39:17,520
Like rather than like leaning
forward and going, going, going.

710
00:39:18,240 --> 00:39:20,880
I mean I can be in a secure
state and active like that,

711
00:39:21,020 --> 00:39:25,880
but being able to take deep
breaths and have a slower pace

712
00:39:26,220 --> 00:39:31,000
and have patience <laugh>
and have space for myself

713
00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:33,960
and my own thoughts and space for
you and your thoughts and others.

714
00:39:34,890 --> 00:39:38,240
Those are all to me signs of like, I
am doing pretty good here in the green.

715
00:39:38,590 --> 00:39:39,560
What about you? Yeah.

716
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:43,720
'Cause you don't have a sense of urgency.
When we're in our protection system,

717
00:39:43,740 --> 00:39:45,480
we have a sense of pressure,
a sense of urgency.

718
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,600
And so when you recognize that you're
not in a sense of urgency, you can tell.

719
00:39:50,110 --> 00:39:53,360
Yeah, because also like let's say I'm
urgently trying to get to the airport.

720
00:39:53,470 --> 00:39:54,240
Yeah.

721
00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:54,850
<Laugh>.

722
00:39:54,850 --> 00:39:56,360
Right? That there really
is something urgent.

723
00:39:56,940 --> 00:40:00,680
But it doesn't mean that I'm not in my
secure place actually that like I can be

724
00:40:00,740 --> 00:40:04,810
in an urgent place, but also like,
and, and if I miss the plane,

725
00:40:04,810 --> 00:40:06,850
it's not the end of the world,
but I'm gonna urgently get there.

726
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:08,930
It's like a differentiated thing.

727
00:40:08,930 --> 00:40:13,050
But also like if I'm just urgent because
I'm urgently trying to get something

728
00:40:13,690 --> 00:40:17,090
whatever, walk across the house
urgently, <laugh>, then yeah,

729
00:40:17,410 --> 00:40:20,170
probably in my protective zone,
that's a good one. But not know it.

730
00:40:20,170 --> 00:40:22,490
It's so weird. It's just gonna
be automatic. But that's.

731
00:40:22,490 --> 00:40:24,770
How, why we're, we're talking
about how, you know, the,

732
00:40:24,770 --> 00:40:28,730
the signs that you recognize you're in a
secure place. One of the ways is again,

733
00:40:28,730 --> 00:40:29,690
we bring up curiosity.

734
00:40:30,270 --> 00:40:34,330
It care if you're feeling a
lot of experience inside you,

735
00:40:34,330 --> 00:40:37,890
but you really don't care what
somebody else next to you is feeling,

736
00:40:38,310 --> 00:40:40,530
no matter what's going on for you,
no matter how, then you're not.

737
00:40:40,530 --> 00:40:41,210
That's a good sign.

738
00:40:41,210 --> 00:40:42,043
Right? That's a good sign.

739
00:40:42,190 --> 00:40:46,850
So one of the ways we know we're in a
secure place is that we have compassion

740
00:40:46,850 --> 00:40:50,290
for ourselves, but we can really
care and be sensitive to the other.

741
00:40:50,390 --> 00:40:51,370
And it's kind of like you were.

742
00:40:51,470 --> 00:40:52,170
So what's your.

743
00:40:52,170 --> 00:40:56,130
Tell my tell that I'm insecure?
That I'm in a secure place?

744
00:40:57,030 --> 00:40:59,490
Yes. That you're in a secure
zone. The green zone. I.

745
00:40:59,490 --> 00:41:04,140
Guess what we're talking about is what's
a sign that was typically that we are

746
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:08,020
in not our green zone and how do we know
when we're not activating it? <laugh>.

747
00:41:08,020 --> 00:41:12,700
And I guess mine is like if I'm
able to set a limit or a boundary

748
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:18,380
and I know that somebody
is going to feel some

749
00:41:19,150 --> 00:41:22,220
sense of loss or just,
you know, some sense of.

750
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:23,900
Or just be mad about it or yeah.

751
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:27,060
Not so much mad for some reason
that one doesn't get me so much,

752
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:30,340
but a sense of loss, a sense of like that,

753
00:41:30,340 --> 00:41:32,820
that that's disappointment
or activation, right?

754
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:38,000
I know that I'm in a really deep
secure space if I'm okay with that,

755
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:42,800
that I'm holding what I need and
what feels important to me in mind

756
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:43,580
enough that I,

757
00:41:43,580 --> 00:41:46,280
and I know that they can tolerate
that and that they're gonna be okay.

758
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:48,920
Like I don't have to be the one to take
that away from them. I can trust them,

759
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,360
I could be there for them, right? So
it's not like, oh well tough on you.

760
00:41:52,510 --> 00:41:55,720
It's like, oh I know that's hard
and I'm still here. So it's that.

761
00:41:55,860 --> 00:41:59,120
And I think for me the word
and is really important.

762
00:41:59,300 --> 00:42:03,650
If it's you or me then we're
probably not in our secure place.

763
00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:05,570
If it's you and me,
we're having a dilemma.

764
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,410
It's you and me how we're
gonna work this out.

765
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:12,890
Then we're able to show care and
concern and self-compassion and

766
00:42:13,230 --> 00:42:15,010
no matter whether, even
if we're angry, right?

767
00:42:15,010 --> 00:42:17,290
Like I like when you were
saying earlier, being in uh,

768
00:42:17,530 --> 00:42:22,050
a secure securely attached system doesn't
mean you're never getting pissed and

769
00:42:22,050 --> 00:42:26,330
petty and all of that. It's that
you have awareness of yourself or.

770
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:29,130
You are more quickly Yes.
Be able to catch it. Yes.

771
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,490
More and you're more
quickly able to repair. Yes.

772
00:42:32,670 --> 00:42:33,410
Oh that's a good one.

773
00:42:33,410 --> 00:42:37,890
We haven't mentioned that individuals
that have more secure attachment base feel

774
00:42:37,890 --> 00:42:41,170
more comfortable doing repair and
feel apologizing. Apologizing.

775
00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,490
It's not hard to say. If it's
really difficult for you to say,

776
00:42:44,670 --> 00:42:48,290
I'm sorry to say thank
you, those kinda things.

777
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:52,290
It's likely a sign that you're having
a hard time staying in a more secure

778
00:42:52,290 --> 00:42:56,490
place. For those that are live in a more
secure attachment place, they can say,

779
00:42:56,490 --> 00:42:59,330
oh, I'm so sorry I hurt
you. Let me repair.

780
00:42:59,630 --> 00:43:02,970
And the reason that shows security,
it's not just an intellectual decision,

781
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:04,810
is your body feels safe doing that.

782
00:43:05,310 --> 00:43:10,090
And safe hearing the impact that you've
had on the other person and safe being

783
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,250
able to hear and you know, how
was that for you? What did,

784
00:43:13,250 --> 00:43:16,850
what did it mean to you when I, we
had plans and I didn't come, you know,

785
00:43:16,850 --> 00:43:20,850
just whatever it is. What did it
mean to you? What was your story? Oh,

786
00:43:20,850 --> 00:43:23,330
I could totally see that.
That makes total sense to me.

787
00:43:23,330 --> 00:43:27,370
And it's not that you're
self-flagellating, you
are not losing yourself.

788
00:43:28,030 --> 00:43:32,850
You really are holding the other person's
experience and sort of bearing it so

789
00:43:32,850 --> 00:43:35,610
that you can, then the apology
is about what you actually did.

790
00:43:35,670 --> 00:43:39,050
Not what's in your mind that you
thought about, but I'm curious for you,

791
00:43:39,050 --> 00:43:39,883
the listener,

792
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:44,370
that we want you to begin to
really track your activation

793
00:43:45,070 --> 00:43:47,370
and hopefully in listening
to us, if you're,

794
00:43:47,370 --> 00:43:48,930
if you're sitting or walking or driving,

795
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:53,610
hopefully right now maybe you're in a
green zone, maybe you are in a open,

796
00:43:53,630 --> 00:43:57,330
you're reflecting on what we're saying,
you're curious about your own history,

797
00:43:57,510 --> 00:44:01,770
you're curious about close people.
So that's what it feels like.

798
00:44:01,870 --> 00:44:04,970
If that's the case, take a
picture, take a mental picture,

799
00:44:05,950 --> 00:44:10,730
notice your jaw, notice your
breath, your back, your arms.

800
00:44:11,550 --> 00:44:12,650
That's what it feels like.

801
00:44:13,310 --> 00:44:16,330
And the more that we can kind of memorize
what it feels like when we're open,

802
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,930
then we'll have some direction
when we are a little bit activated

803
00:44:22,230 --> 00:44:23,930
of where we wanna get back to, that's.

804
00:44:23,930 --> 00:44:27,690
A really good, some of us may live
there more than others. And for that,

805
00:44:27,720 --> 00:44:31,900
that means we encourage you when you're
around individuals that are struggling

806
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:35,120
with that to be a really
secure lifeline. Not a teacher,

807
00:44:35,260 --> 00:44:37,280
but an example to kind of help.

808
00:44:37,340 --> 00:44:40,920
And if for those of you that because
of your particular circumstances,

809
00:44:40,980 --> 00:44:42,640
you don't get to live
there as much as you want.

810
00:44:43,140 --> 00:44:47,840
Our goal is to help you realize by
keeping in touch with what it's like to be

811
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:48,040
there,

812
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:52,960
that you can continue to make decisions
to recognize when you're not and to

813
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:53,793
aim for it.

814
00:44:54,260 --> 00:44:58,800
And this transition and the
growth in this direction is almost

815
00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:02,520
always going to be interpersonal.
So look around you,

816
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:06,720
look at your close relationships. Where
can you deepen? Where can you reach out?

817
00:45:07,210 --> 00:45:09,480
Where do you need to set
boundaries? Like Anne said,

818
00:45:09,490 --> 00:45:13,280
where do you need to tighten up? Where
do you need to speak up that you haven't?

819
00:45:13,910 --> 00:45:17,600
Just make those little fine
tune adjustments and you're
gonna grow that secure

820
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:18,040
state.

821
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:19,120
I love that. And if you,

822
00:45:19,300 --> 00:45:23,000
if you can't think of reaching out
like I don't really need to reach out,

823
00:45:23,020 --> 00:45:27,240
I'm just gonna do it. Tell your body
like, oh actually I do. They're,

824
00:45:27,240 --> 00:45:30,360
they're suggesting that I do need to
reach out. It doesn't feel natural to me.

825
00:45:30,980 --> 00:45:32,920
It doesn't feel like a natural instinct,

826
00:45:33,500 --> 00:45:37,080
but just being aware that it's not a
natural instinct moves you towards agree.

827
00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:41,640
We appreciate you sticking with
us and if you are still listening,

828
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,040
hopefully that means you have found value.

829
00:45:43,300 --> 00:45:45,880
We encourage you to share this with
anyone you think might be interested.

830
00:45:46,570 --> 00:45:47,800
Leave us a rating review.

831
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,920
That's one of the best things you can do
for us because it helps discoverability

832
00:45:52,060 --> 00:45:56,200
and helps other people find it. And
then also visiting our sponsors,

833
00:45:56,220 --> 00:45:58,200
if you'll look at who sponsored this show,

834
00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,200
they're the ones making it
free and available for all.

835
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:04,640
And by taking care of them,
you're taking care of us.

836
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,160
Absolutely. Alright, thanks for joining
us and we'll see you around the bid.

837
00:46:15,870 --> 00:46:16,480
Therapist.

838
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,680
Uncensored is Anne Kelly and Sue Marriott.

839
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:21,320
This podcast is edited by Jack Anderson.