Patrick King

Speaker 1 (
00:00:08
):
You're listening to the journey on podcast with Warwick Schiller. Warwick is a horseman trainer, international clinician and author, whose mission is to help people achieve a deeper connection with their horses through his transformational training program.
Warwick (
00:00:35
):
Welcome back to the journey on podcast. I'm your host Warwick Schiller. And this week I'm going to be chatting to a horseman named Patrick King. And I first met Patrick, I think was at a horse expo in Canada, a number of years ago. And then since then, I've kind of followed him a little bit been on several of his podcasts. He's been doing podcasts for quite a long time now. And through being on his podcast, I came to realize that Patrick is not just a horseman. He's on the, I think he's on the journey that most of my other guests have been on. I know that the first time I was on Patrick's podcast, we talked for two hours and then after we stopped recording, we talked for another two hours and we had a lot of, a lot of books in common and just a lot of the same things in common on our journeys. So you know, it's been been quite a while since I had a chat with Patrick. So I'm interested to see what he's up to. Let's get Patrick on the line and we'll say good day
Patrick (
00:01:47
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Morning, Patrick. Good morning.
Patrick (
00:01:49
):
Thank you so much for asking me to come on here and chat with you.
Warwick (
00:01:52
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I, no problem at all. It's been a couple of years since I've been in your podcast, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah,
Patrick (
00:01:58
):
Yeah. And what we did a couple of them, didn't we, and we chatted a little bit earlier this year when the whole world kind of shut down for a piece,
Warwick (
00:02:08
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We do two podcasts or did we do a podcast that went for two hours and then we turned record off and then we talked for another two hours. Yeah. So we did that several months.
Patrick (
00:02:21
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You know, the only thing I regret with all of those podcasts that I've done is stopping the record button when, when we weren't live anymore. And I feel like everybody that I've talked to on the podcast is that way it's like after the podcast ends, then there's so much more that we talk about. I'm like, God it. I wish I would have recorded all of that too.
Warwick (
00:02:38
):
I I was supposed to do a podcast with Steve Peters here a while ago. And when we got on, for some reason his his computer wouldn't work with this software I'm using right now that you and I are on and I called him on the phone to, to, to check out the tech parts and we couldn't get it working, but then we talked for two hours and I wish that was a podcast because it was really, really, really cool. It was a completely different conversation than we had when we finally got him on the podcast. But yeah, it was, it was pretty darn fascinating. So you said, we talked earlier on this year before the world went crazy. What have you been doing since the world's gone crazy?
Patrick (
00:03:21
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Oh, going crazy with it. I guess I'm just trying to play catch up. Actually, it was a, it was a nice opportunity when the world went crazy for me to sit still in one place for awhile. I've been keeping a pretty crazy schedule for about eight years now. And this was the, with that whole shutdown for what was it? Two months, two and a half months. It's the longest, I've sat still in one town for more than 20 years. So it was, it was nice to be able to sit still, but then once things lifted it was kind of like the tail wagging the dog. I've been full on traveling again since then. Then now with the holidays, I've got the chance to sit still a little bit as well. Another time here, but yeah. So since, since things have picked up, I've been full on with the clinic schedule again.
Warwick (
00:04:03
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Yeah. I think you are the biggest road warrior. I know. I don't, I don't know anybody that does more traveling, constant traveling than you do. So how, how many clinics would you say you do a year?
Patrick (
00:04:19
):
Oh gosh. Well, until the pandemic hit for the last eight years I've been on the road 350 days a year. So there's, there's definitely quite a few that happened in there and to give a number. I don't know that I could say how many, if we were to call them individual clinics, because I do everything from a one day to a three or a four day stint, depending on where I go. But pretty much I have time that I visit my daughter and we block out three to four days where that's all we do is visit. And then aside from that, I'm full on teaching and traveling. So it's, I think I figured out once that I get the opportunity to work with over 300 different courses and people a month. But I've never tried to figure out exactly how many of those are individual clinics.
Warwick (
00:05:08
):
So are you are these trains, planes and automobiles
Patrick (
00:05:14
):
Mostly by car? I do fly a little bit. Yeah. I drive most a bit. And the way that my schedule is usually set is I'll book say the weekends in places where I've had established clinic hosts and that sort of thing. And then from one weekend to the next I'll teach almost every day driving say four or five hours after I finished teaching to get to the next place. And then I teach for the day and then drive another four or five hours. That's kind of the average for me. So I'll be teaching seven days a week, most of the time.
Warwick (
00:05:47
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Wow. You are a road warrior. So let's, let's talk about, okay, let's just talk about this. What, what exactly do you teach?
Patrick (
00:05:54
):
I guess we could say I teach. Yeah. all of the primary focus of what I what I teach now is dressage and in hand work, but there's a lot of horsemanship that comes with it. So to say that I focus on one specific thing, I guess I would say I teach whatever seems necessary in the moment to help the horses and the riders. Most of them I would say probably 70% of them are dressage horses. A lot of my students are professionals also. So I work with a lot of trainers in their client, horses, that sort of thing I'm working on. Just getting more clarity, more relaxation, more understanding, you know, whether that's in a dressage saddle or a stock saddle or a jumping saddle, just kind of whatever they need.
Warwick (
00:06:41
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Yeah. I know. You're really into the classical dressage. So are they, these are the people you're helping. Are they like competition, dressage people? Are they focusing on the classical dressage?
Patrick (
00:06:51
):
Kind of all across the map? Really? the ones, I would say a lot of the ones that I work with that are the competitive dressage they call me into, I don't want to say fix all the problems, but to really help bring more clarity and relaxation through the body. I don't want to, I don't want to just lump anything into a category, but a lot of the time when we see somebody focusing on strictly the competition side of dressage, it's we do this movement at this letter, we do this thing, this figure, this, you know, that sort of thing. And sometimes I find that the psychology and the physiology get a little bit lost in the shuffle in the focus of doing the thing, if that makes sense.
Warwick (
00:07:35
):
Yeah. it tends to be you know, different disciplines tend to, I don't know that I'm not, I'm not, so I'm not looking for is dogma. But like, for instance, if, if, if I was hoping to massage person, and this is not nothing against massage people, but that's just because the rural basically not taught the same way, but maybe they are. If someone was going around the arena to the left and as they got to the corner, I said, turn right. They would turn left. Everything's related to the, where everything's related to the rail and you never turned to the outside. And, you know, I really think that a huge part of having a horse balanced is having a horse be present where they are in body and mind and ready to do something different other than what they're doing. But I see a lot of that, like say dressage horses that, you know, they get on the long side and they see the corner coming and they start getting ready to make a left turn on. The broad has got a hold of it when they're inside ligament ground. Cause the horse knows it's going to turn left.
Patrick (
00:08:41
):
Right. They're kind of going on rope rather than actually being with the rider. Yeah.
Warwick (
00:08:46
):
Well, you know, yeah. It's just about it's just anticipation of every time you get to the corner, you go around the corner. Pretty soon, you don't have to tell him to go around the corner. They're going the corner before you get there.
Patrick (
00:08:57
):
And that's, you know, I love that word anticipation. That was something that Ray hunt used to talk about quite a bit. Whenever I got the chance to spend the time with him, as he say, you know a lot of people talk about anticipation or horse anticipating. And he says, I want my horse anticipating because anticipating is always being prepared for what might or might not happen. And he said, what really has a problem is when the horse actually takes over and that's not really anticipation.
Warwick (
00:09:22
):
Yeah. Well, a few years ago I did a TV show called the principles of training and one of the principles was anticipations or best friend or your worst enemy, depending on how you use it all that time, the whole time, the short title in this patient, your best friend or your worst enemy. And so, and I really think a lot of people, you know, if you think about how you build anticipation, you build anticipation by doing the same thing, the same way every time. And a lot of people I think, would the horses do certain things the same way every time without knowing they're doing it. So they actually build anticipation of something they don't want them to do, as opposed to building anticipation of something. They do want him to do, you know, like just horses say banging at the stole door, when they go to feed them, that's anticipation, you know, you show up at five o'clock and you start banging, you know, trashcan leads around or whatever. And pretty soon they, they know what's what's coming next. [inaudible] Conditioning. It is. So you mentioned right-hand a second ago and you're a bit of an odd person in the world to where you have the, I believe you have the classical dressage background, but you also spent time with rye hunt. Tell me about your time with Ryan.
Patrick (
00:10:33
):
Gosh. yeah, so in my former life, maybe we'll call it when I was, when I was growing up learning things about horses and horsemanship and that sort of thing. I actually grew up competing with horses and showing hunt seat as well as Western disciplines. And
Warwick (
00:10:55
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Just through [inaudible] as well as hot seat, as well as wisdom disciplines. So that sounds like, so I'm guessing what breed
Patrick (
00:11:09
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You guessed it quarter versus,
Warwick (
00:11:12
):
Okay. Okay. That's not what I was guessing.
Patrick (
00:11:16
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Oh, what were you guessing?
Warwick (
00:11:17
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I was guessing like a Saddlebred or a one of those sorts of things.
Patrick (
00:11:22
):
Okay. So when I was a young kid and just got starting to get into horses I got started with Arabs. Yeah. Yeah. My stepmother had an Arab and I joked that I grew up with Egyptian Arabs and I came out of it straight. But growing up those Egyptian horses. So we had a lot of the halter horses and the Western performance horses, that sort of thing. But then my father was interested in horses and he wanted to get into the quarter horses. So we had quarter horses, we had paints, we had that sort of stuff. So I did a little bit the English and the Western kind of the Western pleasure stuff. Growing up in four H and local horse show organizations, that's pretty much what there was. So that was kind of all that I saw.
Patrick (
00:12:07
):
And then we had mini horses. So I did the driving and the obstacles with them and stuff like that. So I've got a lot of, just a lot of experience with different stuff. You know, I got our start with starting young horses under saddle, and that, you know, primarily in the area that I was, was for Western horses, regardless of, kind of really where they were going to go, you know, the idea. And it was, if you were a cult starter, you wrote in a Western saddle. And so I spent quite a bit of my time doing that and I did, I got the chance to ride with Ray hunt. I had hosted a clinic. I I'd read Ray's book, read the books by Tom Dorrance and build the warrants and had always wanted to ride with Tom actually Tom Dorrance. And he passed away.
Patrick (
00:12:53
):
And so I said, well, that's gotta get me that that's kind of the kick in the butt for me to get out there and ride with Ray and where he was teaching. I was in Western Pennsylvania at the time and where he was teaching. He really wasn't anywhere close. So the way that I got to ride with him is I coordinated a clinic for him which was fantastic. And after that, they, I got a an email from them saying that they were inviting me to come out and spend some extended time with him. So I guess he must have seen that I needed a lot of help to get an invitation like that, but so I got the chance to spend a couple months with him. And that was to me, like I thought I had things figured out, you know, when you talk about timing and footfall and that sort of thing, and man, I could tell you where every foot was at every moment in every gate, you know, and I thought that I had that figured out and then Ray really helped me.
Patrick (
00:13:47
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I feel like, kind of dig deeper on that, you know? And I feel like that's the case with everything that we work with with our horsemanship. When you think you understand it, then you get a little deeper and you realize you didn't have a clue and then you get a little deeper and you realize you still didn't have a clue, you know, and it's just an always evolving process that way. But getting the chance to wake up in the morning and have coffee with Ray and chat about what the day was going to be, and then ride all day and, you know, have lunch with Amun ride the rest of the afternoon and have dinner with him and that sort of thing. It was, it was pretty awesome. And where was that? When was that? I knew you were going to ask me that aware. I'm sorry. That was in a little town called era, Texas just South of Gainesville.
Warwick (
00:14:31
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Okay. So tell me about, you have quite interested in the classical dressage. Where did that come from?
Patrick (
00:14:38
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You know, it's interesting. That was always something that intrigued me. And actually when I was younger I had an aunt who gave me a copy of Charles to countries training strategies, the horse and rider. And I remember opening it up and looking at it and I think I must've been, I don't know, 14, 15, and I looked at it. I thought, I don't understand a word this guy's saying. And for some reason I kept the book, you know but I always kept cracking it open and trying to read it, didn't understand it. And when I was starting the young horses, I would have a lot of dressage horses get sent to me or jumping horses. And so I started just kind of digging a little bit more into that. And then when I went to spend the time with Ray on really bad weather days, we might watch videos which was really cool where we we'd be watching somebody's training video and Ray would pause the video and then we'd talk about what he saw and what was going to happen and that sort of thing.
Patrick (
00:15:37
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And he had a strong appreciation for dressage horses. He, he would talk about how a cutting horse or a barrel horse, their job is a little easier because they can see their job so they can, to an extent, ignore the rider right. And ignore the writer's errors. Whereas he would talk about the reining horse or the dressage horse had to be with the rider the whole time where they couldn't just look at what their job was. And so he had a strong appreciation for that. And there was he had a video set of Walters settles a matter of trust videos. And so on occasion we would pop those in as well. And so, you know, seeing that come from Ray, who was in my mind at that moment, God, right. You know, hearing him talk about through massage.
Patrick (
00:16:25
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I thought, man, I need to, I need to dig a little bit deeper into it. And coming from, coming from having Ray as a mentor, I wanted to dig as deep as I could with the best I could find of the dressage influence. And so as I got more and more clients sending me their young horses to start for dressage careers I got the opportunities to ride with other dressage clinicians because you know, these folks weren't confident maybe riding their young horse with the clinician right away when they've got, you know, 30 days, 60 days under saddle. So I was afforded the opportunity to ride with [inaudible] clinicians that way. And that just honestly just kept spiraling me on this path where now that's, that's the majority of the focus. And then, you know, getting the chance to work with chat, with ride with folks like Charles Dickens. See, now I read his book and I'm like, Oh yeah, I understand it. And now there's highlighted marks all through it and little notes written in the sidebars and things like that. It's, it's pretty cool to, in my mind kind of come full circle with that again.
Warwick (
00:17:35
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So once a year you take a group of people to Portugal, to, to ride with some classical dressage people there. Can you tell me more about that?
Patrick (
00:17:48
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Yeah, so we started doing that a few years ago, I guess what four or five years ago now in the winters we traveled to Portugal and we have, as you said, these groups of riders that come with us and we ride with master Louis Valensa, who was the assistant to Nuno Olivera, which is a name that most dressage riders know a lot of, you know, academic horseman, I would say no of Nuno. Louise Valensa was his principal apprentice for quite a few years. Something like 30 years maybe. So we ride with him and his family there. They have quite a school there. They have quite a, an operation with something like 70 grand Prix horses. A half of them are usually on tour throughout Europe with some of the shows that they do and that sort of thing like exhibition shows.
Patrick (
00:18:37
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And then he keeps a barn full where folks can just come and ride and learn about what the movements feel like, learn about the in-hand work from basic stuff up through advanced long reining and the high score, the air's above the ground high schoolwork. It's, it's pretty awesome to be able to do that. And then last year when all this pandemic was just getting started senior Lewis had coordinated for me to go to Spain, to ride at the Royal and delusion school with a question in art, in Horez. So I was was there and had the opportunity to do that. And that's something that we're going to be continuing also once, once we can all travel again, internationally without troubles we'll be returning there as well. So it's, it's pretty awesome. Like I said, to kinda to go to the source, you know,
Warwick (
00:19:27
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That's gotta to be pretty amazing. So I don't know much about any of that stuff, but the, that the little bit, I do know, it seems to me that a big part of all that stuff that Nuno all area was on about, and maybe everybody who's written with him was this correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm out of the total wrong idea, but the other day, you and I were actually chatting on Facebook messenger about you coming out here and maybe go to ride with Dominic Bobby air. And so I've got his book, the alchemy of whiteness, which is basically about the molecular connection between horse and rider. So it's, it's about the it's, it's, it's getting into the woo and I'm into woo these days, which is what it intrigues me. And it's, is there a lot of that? You know, so what I'm getting at here, it's, it's basically the way your thoughts become their actions sort of thing where you can influence horses with just things you think, the pictures you haven't heard, that sort of thing. How much of that? I mean, am I on the right track here and how much of that is involved in riding with these guys? Cause it's just to me it's just fascinating.
Patrick (
00:20:45
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Yeah. I, that's a little bit tricky. I wouldn't say that that's spoken about a whole lot now. I don't know. I'm, I'm really looking forward to riding with Dominique and seeing, you know, hearing his take on things and visiting with him. And I've heard that about his book. I haven't yet read that because I spent so much time on the road. I don't get much time for reading. But when, when we're in Portugal, when we're in Spain, there's a lot a lot of education on the technical aspects of the rider seat and how influential that is when we talk about equitation, to me, there's, there's a big part of how our equitation will build into the woo side of things, right? When the body's in perfect alignment, you can't, you can't think of thought without your body making a change.
Patrick (
00:21:36
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Right. And that's you know, the way I understand that that's what they refer to as the Iddio motor response. So going kind of the science of the will is when you have that thought there's a, there's a subtle or a significant change in your body that when you're connected to the horse in this way, they feel that change. Right. And if the horse is in balance, if the horse is really Ian, what I would refer to as athletic relaxation, where they're prepared, right. Kind of the positive anticipation, then they'll feel that change and they'll know what you're coming up against or what your going to be asking for. And I think that goes a lot into the, kind of the, the thoughts of, you know, Oh, well, you know, my horse didn't wait for me. I was thinking about asking for a canter and he went into the cancer.
Patrick (
00:22:23
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Right. Well, yeah, you did ask him, you just don't realize that you did. Right. So be careful what you're thinking. When I find when things are in alignment and things are in balance, those Wu moments feel so natural. Because you can, again, you can think that thought and your body makes that change with, or without your awareness. And the horse feels that, and is right there with you, you know? But, and so I guess that kind of takes us down a little bit of a different trail here, but is that specifically focused on when we're in Portugal, when we're in Spain? I wouldn't say that it is specifically focused on that. But I think that's where, that's where the art of it comes in. And that's where I think when you get to a different level, that's where the focus comes in.
Patrick (
00:23:14
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Right. And, and I describe it to my students all the time is the two things that horses have to go by. Primarily when they're communicating with each other beyond body language is energy and intention, and that your body language can be completely off. And yet the horse can understand the energy and the intention or your body language can be completely on, but your energy and intention isn't right. And so then you get a response that you would call incorrect, or you would call wrong, or the horse is playing up or whatever because they're feeding off of the energy. And the intention I find though with the human species, the two things that we are most inept in our understanding and development of is energy and intention, right. And horses seem to know this. So for the most part, they tune us out in that way until we've been able to prove to them that we're we can be in alignment with that.
Warwick (
00:24:10
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You know, I think that's the Holy grail right there. And, you know, I don't do as many clinics as you do, but I do quite a few. And over the years there's been, you know, quite a few people you can help. And then there's some people I used to think, ah, you need to get a cat. You know, like this is not for you because horses just don't work for you. And now I realize what it is is that they're there in congruent, their actions and their energy and intention don't lie, don't line up. And so they can do all the physical things correctly, but, you know, they're, they're in their inner world. They're, they're the, the mental outlook, their thoughts in their energy and their intention, all that stuff does not line up with what they're asking. And so these days, you know, I've really changed how I do a lot of things, but like these days on the ground, I make sure that controlling your energy and your intention is part of the ask.
Warwick (
00:25:16
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And I kind of, I kind of teach people to do stuff that way so that you, you know, you need to have a bit of a somatic experience. You need to know what's going on inside of you. And I found it's made a huge difference and I, you know, and I've found that I can me personally, I can get to where I can maybe look at a part of a horses body and without to the naked eye changing anything physically I can get horses to move body parts just by looking at them and changing my energy and intention. And I never, ever could do that before, but it's you know, I just built it in as like I talked before about the TV show had called the principles of training. One of the, one of the episodes, one of the principles is called the application of your aides.
Warwick (
00:26:07
):
And it's what order you do things in. And these days I'm trying to have energy and intention first before I actually do the physical thing. And a lot of times he forces, I've been around people a lot. They they've learned to ignore her in his unit and our intention because it's only in congruent and it's just a mess. So they just basically block it out. So you kind of have to re re not necessarily trying it cause they already know it, but you have to reestablish that your energy and your intention are connected relative to the physical things that you do. And so it'd be just like, you know, a dressage rider would add their seat
Warwick (
00:26:50
):
Aid first
Warwick (
00:26:52
):
And then they'd add their Lego shade. And if that didn't work, I might back it up with whip whip. And if you do that, those steps are enough times eventually when you use your seat, the horse goes, Oh, I know what the answer to this is. Exactly. Well, yeah. So I've been
Warwick (
00:27:09
):
Yeah, I've really been incorporating that. And I think it serves,
Warwick (
00:27:13
):
I really think it serves two functions.
Warwick (
00:27:16
):
One is I think that's how horses communicate
Warwick (
00:27:20
):
With each other. I think there are any junior intention changes before they pin the or whatever it is they do. So it's, it's better communication that way. But I think that most people, these days spend too much time on this thing. And right now I'm holding my phone up to the screen. So Patrick can see it. We're in our head so much. We don't have somatic experience. We're not in our own bodies. And so it kind of,
Warwick (
00:27:48
):
It kind of gets that bit working, you know?
Warwick (
00:27:52
):
So I think it helps the human and I think it helps the horse or the spent time.
Warwick (
00:27:56
):
I am, I saw something a few
Warwick (
00:27:59
):
Years ago that, Oh, it's about five years ago now I think, and it kind of sat there in my brain for a couple of years, but I was at I was in Canada doing some stuff and I had to,
Warwick (
00:28:10
):
And to be
Warwick (
00:28:14
):
Near Jonathan Fields place and I had contacted him and said, Hey, I've got a day off. Can I come say hi? I says, yeah, come over. And I was, I was not going there to pick Jonathan's brains about horses. I was just going there to, to hang with John. You've met
Warwick (
00:28:28
):
Jonathan Jimenez. Jonathan
Warwick (
00:28:30
):
Has this energy that comes off him that I just, I just love, I feel like better human being for being around Jonathan anyway. So I was just going to hang out for the day. But he said, you want to get to play with the horses? And I'm like, yeah, that's good. So we went at, from his house out to his ranch and he's got a horse name Howe who he's done a lot of Liberty stuff with. And I think how it's actually a Brian model
Warwick (
00:28:54
):
Horse now that
Warwick (
00:28:56
):
Okay. He became a Briar host last year, I think.
Warwick (
00:28:59
):
And he was missing with
Warwick (
00:29:01
):
Hell in the arena. And Hal was probably standing,
Warwick (
00:29:05
):
I don't know, 30 or 40 feet from him.
Warwick (
00:29:08
):
Well, we were standing side onto us and he was probably 20 feet from the fence. So he was parallel to the fence. So he's 20 feet off the fence. And about 30, 40 feet from us and Jonathan was talking about, he was showing me some stuff and he said, now, if I look at hell's line, if I look at how's line and I put some energy and intention that might've been the words you used, I can't remember, but put some energy and intention into that spot right there. And you had a head of training stick in his hand and he, he wiggled it about an inch or two. So not very much from 40 feet. He said, if I do that, I can get how to side pass over and hell does move us away from us. Okay. And Jonathan basically doesn't do anything does very right.
Warwick (
00:29:53
):
And I was thinking, and when he does it, it's like a leg yield. So he's bent away from the direction of travel. And so he's like a seat for you guys that listening, he's like a C shape towards us, but he's moving away from this. And that's because Jonathan's focus and his energy and his intention is all going towards health loin area. We've caged loin area. And I th and when he did that, I thought, yeah, that's pretty cool. But if I wanted to get my horse to do that, I think I could do that. I didn't say that, but that's what I'm thinking. And then Jonathan says, but now watch this. If I look at that post to that post pasties head, if I look at that post over there and I direct my energy and my intention in the same place on his body, but my focus is over there. See what happens. And he gets that who was in the host half passes away from us, which means the shade
Speaker 5 (
00:30:55
):
Is bent. The other Durham artist is going in the direction. Yeah.
Warwick (
00:31:00
):
See shape away from us now. And he's moving away from us. Yeah, that's right. Then I went, I give up,
Speaker 5 (
00:31:07
):
I have no idea. I
Warwick (
00:31:09
):
Actually posted a person in my Facebook group that night. Some, you know, some footage from the, from that day just, or recorded on my phone. And I said, you know, what I do with horses is basic meth. This guy does quantum physics. What's funny is that's before I actually knew what quantum physics was. Gotcha. Yeah. And now I know actually he was
Speaker 5 (
00:31:35
):
Doing anyway
Warwick (
00:31:37
):
That the, what he did with hell that day set in my mind for a couple of years, and I had no idea what he was doing, how he did it, but I knew it was possible. And I don't know that it, it just planted a seed, but at the time I really, you know, personally, I basically was shut down and had no somatic experiencing anyway. So I wasn't even in my own body you know, and riding horses, it was just all basically basically physical cues. There was no energy, no intention, none of that. That's, that's where I was at and how he was working. So I thought it was cool.
Speaker 5 (
00:32:16
):
Yeah. And that's what it was to work it really well.
Warwick (
00:32:20
):
Yeah. Look, it's funny. Yesterday, you know, Amy Skinner, well, I don't know her personally, but she posted on Facebook yesterday. Something about, I wouldn't let them meet from two years ago, ride my horse now.
Speaker 5 (
00:32:34
):
Right. And yeah, that's, that's a very wise thing to, to think. So when said it was working quite
Warwick (
00:32:40
):
Well, it was like, yeah. Well that, at my level of understanding at the time it was working quite well. Exactly. but saying Jonathan, do that really? I planted the seed and what's funny. He had me doing some Liberty work with hell and I had held, he was instructing me and I had hell going around me and he's just a little bit too close. And so Jonathan said, just move and you had a little bit, and I just lent forward, slightly move my feet, but lean forward slightly and help. He's like now 40 minutes away. And he's like, Oh, he's too far away. Bring them back. So I kind of lean back and maybe take a step back a little bit to draw him back in. Whoa, he's on top of me. And it was like driving a Ferrari, but what I didn't realize was I had no energy and intention in my.
Warwick (
00:33:24
):
I was just pushing physically and, and the physical pushes the last thing. And it was my first and only then it was, it was varying levels of, of physical pressure, but there was no, no energy and intention. And, and so of course, how was it all over the place he was on top of me, he was away away from you talk to me. He was way away. And you know, I was like, Whoa, I, you know, I was thinking, I can't my God brightness horse. It's a, it's a bit more subtle than I'm doing. And how do you get any more settled in? And like, I'm not moving very much. And so for me, you said about the, the classical just mash guys that you've been riding with, that's in third, but not spoken about. And, and it's the same with, you know, like the Darren says, you know, that, I think like the, Oh, that, that feels stuff they talk about. As I've gone down this path and got into this stuff, I mean, to now I've had a lot of people who were around the dawns and say, darn it. Yeah, that's, that's kind of what we're talking about is like and I've always been, I wish they'd speak bloody English.
Warwick (
00:34:43
):
And I, and I think, you know, I've, you know, I've taken the Oh one, it's a deep dive, but a dive into, you know, being in some old sorts of weed, we were stuff and breathing techniques and, and things like that. And learning all that stuff is real. I think it's really helped me become a more aware of what's going on inside me. And I found that doing it, all that stuff has made the horses respond better so much better to me. But, but for me, it's, it's we made it easy for me to explain to people, you know, I think some of the best horsemen can't tell you what they do. So it kind of be, it remains a mystery because they just so intuitive. Like I just do it that they don't have to quantify it. And Oh, I said for me that none of this stuff with came very naturally to me and I've had to learn it like inside out before I could actually do it, which means I can actually teach it. And this is back in the day of when I'm talking about just physical cues and then I've had this deep dive about getting back in my own body and getting connected to it and then starting to go, okay, starting to use that energy and intention with the horses. And then I can explain it to people because it,
Warwick (
00:36:06
):
Because you have to go through it. Yeah.
Warwick (
00:36:09
):
And I think some people are, you know, just have that. I think they just have it in them naturally. Actually, I think I personally, I think we're all born with that and just trauma and stuff can make that go away. But what I, you know, taking a deep dive into the whole somatic stuff, you know, I mean the therapy world of somatic stuff like getting in touch with your own body has made me realize there's a pandemic of that. So many people don't, aren't in touch with that. And I think that's what holds them back with their horses. And, and so it's the, these days I'm probably more, I wouldn't say, I don't know if the word is interested, but, but helping people with their horses, the first thing I'm trying to do is make them aware of that stuff because I was unaware of that stuff. And a lot of people are unaware of that stuff. And I think I've actually got to help some people in the last couple of years that four years ago, I would have suggested they get a cat.
Warwick (
00:37:20
):
I can now
Warwick (
00:37:21
):
It's near the unquantifiable part that you can't see. What's the part that makes it all work. Oh yeah. Surely it does. Yeah. So it's, it's, it's and I'm not, I'm no therapist or anything, but I, I, what I try to do is get people to be aware of just aware of that stuff and they can, they can do their own you know, do their own searching stuff. And, you know, a lot of that stuff I think has come to me through books, I've read. And I know one of the conversations we've had before we have a waiver, a long list of very similar books that we've read.
Warwick (
00:38:02
):
Yeah. For sure. And see that something
Warwick (
00:38:05
):
In your, you know, things you post and stuff like that. I didn't, I didn't, I was so surprised when we, like, we did our, I did a podcast with you and we chat for two hours and then we turn the podcast off and keep chatting. And that's when we really got into that stuff about those books. And I'm like, Whoa, that's pretty interesting. What, what would you say, so I've given you some questions to, to tell me, to ask you as my, as everybody listening probably knows, I have a list, 20 questions that I
Warwick (
00:38:36
):
Send out to my guests and I haven't picked out four or five or six of them that they'd be interested in answering. And this one you didn't pick up a safe it's, it's, it's, it's pretty safe. So I'm going to go there. Do you have a a favorite book? And I don't mean it, the, the favorite, your favorite book, like the favorite book you've read, but one that you suggest to people the most, like, if someone said, Hey, you're gonna need a suggestion for a good book. And you say, you're probably really should read this one.
Patrick (
00:39:10
):
Mm Hmm. Gosh. Yeah. And so when I read that question, the reason I didn't pick it is because I thought Jesus, I've got like 42 books that I'm constantly recommending. Top 10, there you go. So I think honestly number one, and number two, number two would be the Alchemist. And Lisa actually introduced me to that one. And I think it's a, it's a fantastic book. But one of the ones that I read, I've probably read this book 10 times now. So I would say it's one of my favorite. And I first read it when I was in high school, actually a book called MODOK. And I think you and I might've chatted about that. I may have sent you a copy of I've sent copies of that book to lots of people. He didn't send me. I didn't need to then, cause I think you'll love it.
Patrick (
00:40:01
):
It's I feel like it's, it's one of those safe, soft entries into the Woolworths stuff. The book is called MODOK the true story of the greatest elephant that ever lived. And it's basically it's a Chronicle of the life of this boy and an elephant that were born at the same time on a farm in Germany. And it's a true story. Bronco interesting is the name of the fellow that was born. And they were born into a circus family and it talks about their connection growing up and how they were on a ship somewhere traveling for, I believe it was for the circus. There was a storm ship, went down and ended up in India. And so then they were working in teak forests in India and all these other things. And they ended up in the, through the course of the story.
Patrick (
00:40:49
):
They ended up migrating to the States and they got separated at some point. The elephant went on to be in several movies, worked with like Sonny and Cher and, you know, lots of big Hollywood kind of stuff quite a while ago. And then they ended up reconnecting at some point throughout their lives. It was just a fascinating book, but they talk about in the book, they talk about the experiences and particularly when they were in India, the connection that they gained working through the teak forests and that was beyond the connection that they had already developed growing up together, working together, performing together, that sort of thing. And you know, this is the story of, of an elephant and a person that's spend their entire lives together. You'd think they know each other inside and out. And then in India and all these other places, they, they get that journey so much deeper and they become so much more aware.
Patrick (
00:41:47
):
And to me, it's a story about horsemanship and it's a story about life. It's a story about everything which is why I go back to it so often. And yeah, it's, it's definitely I'll have to, I'll have to bring you a copy of it. Because it's one, I gift a lot. It, I, like I said, it's, it's like a safe entry into the it's. I don't read very many novels anymore. Because I feel like that one might be spoiled me a little bit in putting me on a path. And that sent me down a path of researching lots of different books and lots of different avenues of things. But that's what I go back to frequently.
Warwick (
00:42:24
):
Yeah. Okay. What else you got in your top 10 list?
Patrick (
00:42:30
):
Oh my goodness. You know a lot of the others that I go to Mark Russell's book lessons in lightness a lot of the, there are several books that have been written about time. People have spent with Nuno Olivera books written by the classical masters gymnasium of the horse by Steinbrecher. Yeah, a lot of them are the kind of the old, the old boring ones.
Warwick (
00:42:54
):
Okay. Have you ever read a book called illusions by Richard Bach? Not
Patrick (
00:43:00
):
Yet, but now I'm going to have it's
Warwick (
00:43:02
):
A bit like the Alchemist. Okay. And what's funny. He recently, I'd never, I'd never, I'd not been aware of the book. And someone on my Facebook group recently asked, have asked me, but not in a private message, but on my Facebook group, have you ever heard of this book? I'm like, no, I haven't. I'll actually have to I'll actually have to look into that. Okay. That was on, I dunno, it's Tuesday, Thursday. I get two packages in the mail. One from the UK, one from the U S the one from the U S was mailed on Monday. The one from the UK was mailed the week before I opened both of these packages up. They like hand addressed. So it's not a business or whatever, open both of these packages up. And both of them are a copy of illusions. And we have a little note says, thought that you might, I thought you might need to read this book. Wow.
Patrick (
00:44:15
):
Well, that's the universe telling you, you need to read it
Warwick (
00:44:18
):
Both on the same day, two days after the first time I ever heard of the book. Wow. That was like,
Patrick (
00:44:29
):
Right, right. Speaking of quantum physics and opening yourself up to the field, right?
Warwick (
00:44:35
):
Yes. Do you ever, like, that's one of those coincidence things, do you ha do you find you have those coincidence things happen? We had coincidence things.
Patrick (
00:44:44
):
Yeah. I do. I do. A lot of times I try to pay attention to little things. Like some random name comes up several times in a week. I'm like, okay, I got to meet this person, you know, or I've got to, I've got to look a little bit deeper into this. Yeah. It's definitely, those are the moments where the universe says, you gotta, you gotta take notice.
Warwick (
00:45:09
):
Yeah. It was one of the, I, I, it just flabbergasted me because I've had some pretty weed coincidence he stuff happened, but that one, there was it wasn't like, you know, like, think about, so I, what I did was I researched how many books have ever been written. Okay. After that came, I looked up how many books have ever been written? And I forget who he was, but it was a huge number. And I might've posted, it said, you know, the, so there's been certain, you know, however many million books written. And so the odds of me getting one in the mile randomly two days after the first time I ever heard of that book is astronomic
Patrick (
00:45:51
):
One in however many millions.
Warwick (
00:45:53
):
But then the odds of me getting the same book. Yeah. From two different parts of the world, the same day, two days after I first became aware of the book, we're just like, that's just, that's just crazy to me.
Patrick (
00:46:15
):
Yeah. That's enough to make the hairs on the back of your neck. Stand up.
Warwick (
00:46:18
):
Yes. It is doing it right now. Just talking about it again. Yeah. You'll have to, you'll have to read that. So I'm gonna, I might get into your questions now, cause I, I think you'll know the answers to your questions might might lead us down a few rabbit holes. And so the first one, I really like this one is what was your biggest failure and how has it helped you?
Patrick (
00:46:42
):
And, you know, so I chose that one because I have a bit of a twist on that. I feel like, and excuse me for twisting the questions. I feel like failure is a decision. Right. And when I, when I look back, when I, I was reading your questions to Lisa and she's like, Oh, that's a great one. I said, well, I can't think of any failures. I can think a lot of things I might've messed up or gotten sidetracked on that have caused growth and changed the trajectory of things. But I can't think of anything that I would really call an ultimate failure, you know? I think it's about the learning from experiences that comes from that. You know, I don't think there necessarily is such a thing as a failure until you decided, right. It's, what's that quote about, there's not winning or losing there's winning or learning.
Warwick (
00:47:48
):
You just failed to look at you just not fail to you just refuse to look at them as failures.
Patrick (
00:47:55
):
Yeah, I think so. I think so. And I think that's, you know, that's the stubborn German in me
Warwick (
00:48:00
):
Now you have some stuff in Germany.
Patrick (
00:48:03
):
Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, I think about myself a lot of times, like the tennis ball addicted border Collie, you know, it's like he brings it to your feet and says, you want to throw it and you say, no, he says, okay, fine. How about now? No. Okay. Fine change mine yet. No. Okay. Fine. How about now? You know, it's like, again, that failure is the decision, you know, it's the decision that you make it's and sometimes I certainly don't want to compare myself to anybody smart, but you know, it's kind of like Edison, how many times did he fail with the light bulb? Right. You know, it's and he wouldn't have, he would tell you that that wasn't a failure. It was just whatever it was 10,000 times that it didn't work or, or whatever. There's times when we can change our mind about a path we're headed down.
Patrick (
00:48:45
):
But I don't think that that's failure there's times when something might not work, but that's not necessarily failure that's feedback. Right. I heard that somewhere, somebody smart said that, you know, there's, there is no failure, there's only feedback. And I think that's a really cool way to think about it. You know, there's a lot of ways that things might work. There's a lot of ways that things might not know a friend of mine, Richard winners says you know, everything works sometimes. But when you, when you think of things that way it's not necessarily failure, you know, that's kind of how I think about it. So when we talk about, you know, what was my biggest failure, I guess I can't really name one. There's been lots of meaningful moments. But I wouldn't, I wouldn't consider them to be failures
Warwick (
00:49:31
):
And that's that's a great way to look at it, the world. Okay. So I'm going to hit you up with another one of your questions here. Okay. What's, what's the most worthwhile thing that you've put your time into something that you've done that changed the course of your life?
Patrick (
00:49:44
):
Oh gosh. And there's a few things in there. I think one of them is, is figuring me out a little more. And that's a path that I'm on and trying to dive deeper in, but that's, that's been definitely a changing thing, looking at, looking at situations and thinking, what is that reflect of in me rather than what's happening in the situation. Right. that other thing that I think has been really influential for me is, you know, when, when we talk about learning and we talk about needing to know, or not being maybe natural with some of these things and really struggling to learn through things a big thing for me is I'm a why guy, I want to know why everything works. I want to know if it's this, if this happens this way, why, what makes it happen that way? And I feel like diving deeper into that with the physiology of the horse and the psychology of the horse. I feel like that's been a really helpful for me in explaining that to students, you know, and much like what you talked about with, you know, the person that four years ago, you might've told to get a cat. Now you have a better way of helping them get on that path. You know, I find I'm constantly trying to learn the deeper why behind things, whether it's the woo side of things, whether it's the, the scientific side of things or, you know, whatever. And how do those things work together as well.
Warwick (
00:51:15
):
Yeah. I, you know what, you just made me think of another question. This is not a question that's on there. You know, a minute ago, you, in, in one sense, and I'm going to put you on the spot right here, live on the podcast. I'm going to go two separate times. You said, I don't want to compare myself with anybody smart. And I, I struggle with, I want to ask you if you struggle with this too, I struggle with the, the vacillation between, I know what I'm talking about. And I dunno what I'm talking about. Like, you, you, you you're, you know where we are educators of other people. And so we have to, we have to know what we're talking about, but there's also the part of us that says, I, I dunno what I'm talking about. And it's, it's like this self-deprecating sort of a thing. And it's kind of like, you, you beat yourself up, you know, you subconsciously beat yourself up and put yourself down. But then the other side of that, if I don't do that, then I'm too considered to have too much hubris. And, and, and, and there's this fine line to walk in the middle of the night. I don't know. Do you, do you struggle with it? Oh, no, no.
Warwick (
00:52:38
):
Have you been talking to my therapist's work? Well, it's just, you know, I had someone a few years ago because I've always said at clinics I'm not very talented, but I have a process. And if I can, if I can do all the steps in the process, I can get some stuff done, but I'm not very talented. And I had someone several times told me, Hey, you got to stop saying that about yourself. And you know, some of the work I've done, you know, at, at it has to do with, with your, you know, that negative self-talk. And, and, and I, I really struggle with, I kind of struggle with with, if I, if I'm not myself, I'm not good
Warwick (
00:53:26
):
Enough. I'm telling myself I'm too good.
Warwick (
00:53:28
):
You know what I mean? Where's the mill, right? Yeah.
Warwick (
00:53:32
):
It's just, when you said that thing twice, like, Oh, I don't want to compare myself with anybody smart, but you know, how many times
Warwick (
00:53:40
):
Edison, you know, the light bulb and yeah, I just, I find that for
Warwick (
00:53:46
):
Me, I don't know about you, but I find
Warwick (
00:53:48
):
That's, that's something
Warwick (
00:53:50
):
I struggle with. You know, I grew up in Australia and Australia has this thing called tall poppy syndrome. You've had a tall puppies. Yeah,
Warwick (
00:53:58
):
No, I don't think so. It's like,
Warwick (
00:54:00
):
You know, when the puppies grow, the tallest one gets cut off when you mow the lawn sort of thing
Warwick (
00:54:05
):
And, and Australians Australia,
Warwick (
00:54:10
):
Or you know, we have this thing called tall poppy. So we don't Australians tend not to idolize their heroes. They tend to cut them down sort of thing, you know, when you, like, if you're successful in Australia, but he hates you sort of thing when everybody does. And I think it's changing, but, and I didn't ever realize why it was there until the 2000 Olympics. I was here. I was here in the U S when the 2000 Olympics were in Sydney. And so only the American journalists go to Australia to cover the Olympics. And they caught onto this whole tall poppy syndrome thing. And I read a really good article, which explained where it came from. And it came from so Australia was settled by mostly by cotton.
Warwick (
00:54:52
):
Okay. And for you
Warwick (
00:54:55
):
Convicts, so after, you know, after you'd served your prison sentence, you where you would turn loose. Well, at the time
Warwick (
00:55:00
):
The, the police state was quite oppressive. Okay. And you didn't have to do much wrong to get arrested
Warwick (
00:55:09
):
And, you know, like public floggings, you know, tired to the triangle and, you know, 30 lashes or whatever, that was pretty common.
Warwick (
00:55:16
):
Okay. And so people learned to blend in not, yeah.
Warwick (
00:55:22
):
Yeah. Like if you think about the Australian national costume, what's the Australian national costume, a, you know, a dry as a bone, you know, what you would call it, an Outback duster or whatever, you know,
Warwick (
00:55:33
):
And what color is it? It's Brown. Yep. Yep. Like it, it blends in and sorry, I'm always cool.
Warwick (
00:55:46
):
Definitely came out in Australia because you like came out with a lot of green stuff. Australia is pretty,
Warwick (
00:55:51
):
Pretty brand. Right. It's funny. Kangaroos
Warwick (
00:55:53
):
Are very good at camouflage. There's a, there's a gray kangaroo in Australia that looks like if you look out there, you'd think it was a, a dead tree stump because it goes, it's exactly the same gray color is a dead trace
Warwick (
00:56:07
):
Now. Yeah. And so
Warwick (
00:56:09
):
I learnt from reading that article that, Oh, that's where that tall poppy syndrome thing came from is not wanting to stand out. You want to, you want to blend in. So anybody, you know, when, at least in my generation growing up, anybody who was
Warwick (
00:56:24
):
Maybe flame buoyant or, you know, whatever, I mean, sporting prowess, there's one thing that's not, that's not trying to draw attention to yourself, but if, if there was any other ways you were doing that, it's, it was very much frowned upon. And so, yeah, I think that's a huge part of a lot of people in Australia. So I keep it a part of mine, but yeah, it just comes back to that whole, you know, negative self-talk, but then you can't like, well, I couldn't, I couldn't say nice things about myself, because then I'd be as a, would say up yourself, you know?
Patrick (
00:57:02
):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Then your record or your yeah, yeah,
Warwick (
00:57:05
):
Yeah, yeah. Straight under, I don't think we'd use such a fancy term as bragging, but yeah, they'd have, because if you're like in, like, in your situation, in my situation, you have a large number of people who, you know, it's not like you're an elementary school teacher, so you've got, you know, a bunch of six year olds think you're really smart. And, you know, we tend to have a lot of people think that we have all the answers sort of thing and expect you to be able to give them the answers. And it's, I don't know. I just, I just, I struggle with that a bit, you know? Yeah. Yeah.
Patrick (
00:57:44
):
I, I find myself thinking about that when I give lectures and things like that, like I give a lot of kind of the, I referred to it as the anatomy of collection and things like that. I give a lot of different lectures, but we get into the science-y side of things and then, you know, I'll get the frequently, I want to say in most of the lectures that I give I'll have like a veterinarian or a, you know, a doctor or something like that in there. And I'm like, I know I'm going to screw this word up. I'm going to feel like an idiot. I'm going to look like a dummy, you know, all these things. And it never happens that way, you know, or at least they haven't called me out on it. But yeah, there's always that little bit of, maybe it's not quite right. You know, maybe I don't have the answers.
Warwick (
00:58:28
):
Right. Yeah. Interesting stuff to think about, you know, at a I presented the horse expo in Canada a few years ago. I didn't think it was the one where I met you because I met you in red deer, I think. Yes. In red deer. Now this is the other, the other one is Chilliwack. Sign people run it, its its main event run it. And when they contacted me to, to go up there, they said, we want you to do a thing on the flying. One of the sessions on the flying lead change. I'm like, Oh no, I'm done. I'm flying lead change. Like now we'd really like you to do it in the flying lead change. A lot of people are interested in that. And I said, yes, but most people who think their horse is ready for a flying lead change is not ready for a flying lead change.
Warwick (
00:59:25
):
And then when we figured out which part of it doesn't work and we go back and we spend all the time working on that thing and then there's, you know, 300 people sitting in the stands who came to see a flying lead change. You don't get to see a flight may change. And I think that just comes back to my people pleasing thing. I wouldn't want anybody to walk away disappointed or think bad water. And so I said, no, I don't want to do the flying late change thing. And I said, yes, we want you to do on the following link change thing. So here I go, I agree to do the flying late change thing. And so when I go, when I'm at that expo and I go over, you know, 15 minutes before the end of the previous session, you know, to talk to the sound guy, make sure I can get the headset and all that sort of stuff.
Warwick (
01:00:05
):
And the session before me is a lady named Charlotte. Brendale who's the us dressage rider. She's Olympic bronze medalist in the dressage. So I think she probably knows what she's talking about and I get there and they're doing, and the, her session is on fourth level dressage, third level desire, sorry. And case what they're doing. I made changes. Oh, well there's a bunch of other stuff. And so then I, you know, Charlotte comes out and I get the microphone off her and thank you very much, whatever. So then I go in and I start explaining that I don't really want to do the flying leech. I've got the microphone and I'm talking to the crowd of people. I'm saying I really don't want to do the flying lead change because a lot of times, once I say what the horses are doing, we don't even get to the flying late change. Cause like you'll, you're, you're, you're haunches in is all over the place, you know, or whatever, all the parts of it or maybe the leg
Patrick (
01:01:07
):
Ingredients aren't
Warwick (
01:01:07
):
They? So I'm trying to, I'm basically trying to explain to the crowd that you might not see if language. So I'm explaining to them that I didn't want to do the flying late giants because a lot of times people aren't ready and then I say, but then I had to do it. They said, I've got to do it. So then I come out of here 15 minutes before and there's real flying, lead changes going on. And so when I see this quite a few people still sitting here who saw the last session. So now I feel even more pressure. And even worse than that, the person who taught the last session is an Olympic bronze medalist in the dressage. And even worse than that, she's sitting in the front row now and she's going to watch the session,
Patrick (
01:01:47
):
No
Warwick (
01:01:49
):
Pressure. And so I said, sorry, Charlotte, if you know, if I do anything stupid, just put your hand up and come out here and straighten these guys out. Cause I'm only, I'm only teaching what I, I know. Right. They don't want to know like that was that. Okay, Charlotte. She goes, yeah.
Patrick (
01:02:02
):
That's okay. That's okay. Yeah. It's a bit like it's a bit like that, isn't it? Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, it's, it's interesting because that's one of the things that I've always really admired about you is, is the way to say, look, this is what I know right now. And next week when I know a little more, I'll be able to share a little bit. And I think that's so important. You know, one of your questions on there also was what do you admire most in people? And that genuineness, I think is one of the things that I admire the most in people and you know, being in the public and being around a lot of people in the public, one of the things that drives me the most nuts is when somebody turns on a microphone and they're a different person. I value the reality, I guess, in the, in the person. If, if you're a different person on the microphone than you are off the microphone, I probably won't have a whole lot of respect for you, you know? But when you're consistent like that, even if you're not perfect, right. If you're consistent and you're growing and that sort of thing to me, that's, that's the Mark of somebody I want to hang around, you know, that's, that's the, the camp I want to travel with.
Warwick (
01:03:15
):
Great answer. Okay. So did we get off track? I asked you what's the most worthwhile thing to put your time into? What was your answer to that? Sorry,
Patrick (
01:03:25
):
The worthwhile thing. Discovering a little bit more about myself and digging into the, the anatomy and the psychology. Yeah.
Warwick (
01:03:33
):
Very good. Yeah. That's right. We got a little off track then. Okay. So what, what have you changed in the past five years? That's helped shape who you have become, and this sounds like it's going to be more of this.
Patrick (
01:03:43
):
Yeah. And it honestly is. It's, it's very much more of the same. It's it's about going from the physical AIDS, right? Like we've already talked about to the feeling, the energy or the intention behind those things and to digging deeper in that Mark Russell was one of the first ones that really got me thinking deeper about the in-hand work and the connection through the horse's spine and you know, feeling all of those things. And I know recently you went to a Masterson seminar. One of the, I don't have a ton of experience with the Masterson work, but enough, I feel like to get the gist. And one of the things that I've been saying to riders for several years is use your aides as though you're doing a Masterson session, right? Can you, when you apply your AIDS, can you release it a horse's body to your AIDS?
Patrick (
01:04:39
):
Can you get the horse to accept? You know, I talk a lot now about acceptance instead of obedience, right? Because there's a lot of ways you can get obedience, but that can often look very different than from an acceptance. Can we, can we help the horse to feel okay with everything that we do? And I get to talking about kind of the primary and the secondary function of our AIDS, right. I think of our primary function of our aides is to relax the horse and release tension. The secondary function of our aides is to direct educator shape. So if the horse is, you know, you apply your aides and there's tension that comes up in the body, or there's a bracing, or there's a worry, then there's a philosophical challenge with the horses, understanding of the AIDS or our understanding and application of the AIDS.
Warwick (
01:05:30
):
Okay.
Patrick (
01:05:31
):
So it's just that digging a little deeper.
Warwick (
01:05:34
):
All right. Yeah. It is a bit of a rabbit hole. Once you start digging down there. There's there's there's no yeah, there's, there's no into it. So here's another question for you. What do you do to relieve stress or recharge your batteries or where do you find motivation or inspiration for what you do?
Patrick (
01:05:58
):
So I can go with both of those actually. What do I do to recharge my batteries? I'm big on taking me time for the gym. That's a big thing to me is being able to go into the gym and workout kind of let go of some of that stuff, whatever is kind of built up in there. So going in physically working out is, is a big thing for me. And I can tell kind of psychologically when I've gotten too many days without getting the chance to go to the gym, which with this whole pandemic thing, that's been a challenge. But so for me, it's as much calisthenics as it is actual weightlifting or things like that. But then the meditation is, is a big thing taking the time to meditate and just kind of be, you know, find that center. A friend of mine said once that the biggest problem is that most of us are human doings instead of human beings. And you know, finding that time to meditate and really just be is, is really helpful for me for recharging.
Warwick (
01:07:02
):
What what sort of meditation do you do?
Patrick (
01:07:08
):
I kind of dabble with a lot of guided meditations recently. I've gotten more invested into Joe Dispenza and the medications that he offers. Yeah. So I've been digging a lot deeper with those and it's, to me, to me, those at the moment on my journey are the ones that I find to be the most effective. I feel very much like a better person when I get up from those.
Warwick (
01:07:30
):
So do you do like the 45 minute blessing your, the energy centers meditation? Yep. I've had, I had some profound experiences doing that, that one early on, and that I'll tell you what I, you know, I, I was we see that the medic somatic experiencing therapist, cause it was on zoom, but I was seeing a somatic experiencing therapist for wall. And I probably got more out of that meditation because I, it got to where, because it really gets you in touch with your body. Like, I don't know about you, but I would get these tingling sensations all over my body when I do that meditation. And now if I, I could probably even do it right now, if I just close my eyes and sit, yeah, my legs start tingling. Like I get these like the hair on the back of your neck, standing up all over my like my legs and not, yeah, that's, that's a, that's a very, very, yeah, that's a very, very cool meditation. I absolutely, I should get back to doing that one, doing that one more. Do you sit in a chair when you do them? Do you sit cross legged?
Speaker 5 (
01:08:49
):
I have a a cushion that I use. Sometimes I'm in a chair sometimes I'm on the cushion. Sometimes I'm standing in line at the grocery store, but when I'm, when I'm focusing on, on actually actively doing those it's usually sitting on the cushion on the floor. I find sitting cross legged. I don't yet have the hip flexibility for that. So yoga is one of those other things I try to do to recharge. But I find that the, the meditation cushion is super helpful for me with that. And I do a lot, like recently I've been doing a little bit more flying. So during my long flights, I'll do several meditations there. So just in the chair,
Warwick (
01:09:29
):
You know, I found, so I was, do you know what a muse is?
Speaker 5 (
01:09:36
):
Amused? Oh yeah. The, the meditation, yeah,
Warwick (
01:09:39
):
The headband thing. I'd been doing it. I'd got up to where I was doing half an hour of it every day. And, but I was always doing it sitting and then I started doing it on a cushion and it just exponentially increased the difficulty of it because just sitting for that long cross-legged on the cushion, it was a it was a challenge just to stay seated for that long because like things get painful and you've just got to breathe breathe through them. And, and I found, I found it was a different experience, you know, like say Dr. Joe's meditation, just supposed to be doing, I'm sitting in a chair, you know, to sit in a chair with your back. Correct. but the, the, the, the meditation sitting on the, on the cushion, it was something different because it's this it's a, it's a mental challenge. So the, just the sitting itself is the meditation staying in that position is the meditation itself. You really got to stay connected. Have you ever tried any Kundalini yoga? I've not, no Robin's been doing it and I've done it a bit too. And there's quite a bit of stuff in that too, where it is just a practice of breathing through discomfort or pain. And
Warwick (
01:11:14
):
Yeah, it's, there's something about, I think there's something about that. It's that putting yourself in a situation that, that is painful and just accepting
Speaker 5 (
01:11:28
):
The pain? Yeah. Yeah. Well, the first thing we always tend to do right is hold our breath and get protective, which, you know, if we want to talk about the nervous system that just puts us in the sympathetic state and now we can't get anything accomplished anyway, as far as the meditation goes. So yeah.
Warwick (
01:11:43
):
Yeah. Good stuff. Okay. You're I think I've asked you most of your questions. Oh, okay. So second part of that question, the first part was what do you do to relieve stress? But this one is fascinating for me about you. Where do you find motivation or inspiration for what you do? You know, like being on the road 350 days a year? I think I would go
Speaker 5 (
01:12:06
):
Crazy. I think that about being home
Warwick (
01:12:12
):
Well, I've been home for a while this year and I think it might be going a little crazy, but yeah.
Speaker 5 (
01:12:17
):
Right. I don't, I don't think I've got a far journey in any direction for the going crazy part. You know, one of the things that, that I find for the motivation is keeping in touch, honestly, with colleagues, with friends, people like you, you know, when, when we started, when I started my podcast, it was, it was a selfish kind of an idea to just connect with friends. I find when I get the rare moments to do it, listening to podcasts that other people are doing or reading, catching up on, like the posts that you've got on social media and other people are doing, or watching videos of the old masters or things like that. It's, I think there's, there's probably a label for my addiction to just constantly getting better with the horses and, and kind of being somewhat single-mindedly focused on that.
Speaker 5 (
01:13:11
):
But the horses themselves really are a huge motivator for me. And I find, and I'm sure everybody that teaches probably feels this way, but I find when I'm teaching a clinic, it can be the 10th hour or the 12th hour. And when somebody gets it, whether it's the horse or the rider, right. When somebody really gets it, man, to me, it's like, bring on six more riders, you know, bring on six more hours of lessons. I could go all day there's to me, such a high in helping that process to come through and feeling somebody else understand, or seeing the light bulb go off for somebody. That to me is incredibly motivating.
Warwick (
01:13:55
):
Yeah. I think there's a lot of, I think it's, you know, like musicians, one of the reasons musicians like to play music is that the feedback they get from the audience that, that energy you get back from the audience. And I find that, yeah. Like when people are getting it, that energy, you get back,
Warwick (
01:14:12
):
It's, it's so much you know, it's, it's almost like it's almost selfish sort of thing, but you're doing it because you get that. But I, I really, I like helping people, but yeah, that, that, that energy you get back from, and for me, when I'm doing clinics, I, I go in a bit of a time warp, like I've no idea what time of the day it is. I don't get hungry. I don't get, I can use the, I just go all day without it. I don't even stop for lunch. Yeah. But I don't, I'm not hungry. I'm not tired. It's like, I'm in the, I think there's something for me about being when you when I'm working with the hopes of working with people in the horses, in front of a crowd of people, and I'm explaining every little thing that's going on in the moment you're present, you're not thinking about five minutes ago.
Warwick (
01:15:04
):
You're not thinking about five minutes ahead. You right there with what's going on. And I ha I struggled being present. And so I think that's why I can do the clinics is because it's, it's almost like I get in, in the zone. You know, it's not, it's not tiring, it's actually energizing, but, and this is where I dunno how you do it is when I'm done. You're spent spent like usually on the plane on the way home, I'm just, I'm just kind of done. And so I need that, that recharge Tom, a few years ago, Robin had me a couple of times during the year I went on month long trips overseas. So I was gone for a month. And then I, you know, I come back and then I was gone for another month. And at the end of that year, I didn't, I kind of didn't want to go out again. And I said to Robin, I would rather go for two weeks, come home for 10 days and go for two weeks, then go for a month. And so I think I think that the year after that, I went to Australia in November, December, January, February, and March for two weeks, came back, went, came back, went, came back, went, came back. But if I, you know, I just find that if I have, you know, over two weeks, so I kind of get a bit fraud.
Speaker 5 (
01:16:33
):
Yeah. And you felt like that was, that was good for you? The, the going, coming back.
Warwick (
01:16:37
):
Oh yeah. I, I, I sleep on planes, but I didn't sleep on planes at might not be good, but I sleep pretty well on planes. And so, yeah, the plane is just the big old sleep. Sometimes the best sleeps I have are on planes. The trip to Australia can be 14 hours. For sure. You know, sometimes I, you know, sometimes the best sleeps I have around.
Speaker 5 (
01:17:00
):
Yeah. It was, it was was it two years ago? I think I had a, had dinner with a friend of ours. Kevin Burney. Oh yeah, yeah. Great guy. And we were somehow or another in the conversation we got to talking about sleep and travel and he was talking about how, when you're away from home, when you sleep, your brain sleeps similar to how it does when you're drunk, which is only half of your brain sleeps. The other half is on protective mode, right? Because the situation, the area is unfamiliar, then he said that that basically explains why when you go away for a vacation and you have a great time, you come home and you feel like you didn't sleep. You feel, you know, doggy after your vacation that you need to rest and recharge because your brain didn't actually sleep while you were on vacation. Even if your body did because you were somewhere new. And I said, well, you know, the challenge with me is that when I come home, I struggle to sleep because I'm on the road so much home is the
Warwick (
01:18:00
):
Familiar, right. I'm in hotel.
Speaker 5 (
01:18:03
):
I was like, I've got this whole routine. I feel like for me, it's easier being on the road full time, because I'm always packed. If you leave for two weeks and then you come back for a month, you're always packing. You know what I mean? You're always getting ready either to be home or to be away where I'm just fairly standard on the road. And the hotel is my normal and the road is my routine, you know, that kind of thing. And I have like essential oils that I'll splash in the heater and the air conditioner. So that every room, the area is,
Warwick (
01:18:32
):
I
Speaker 5 (
01:18:32
):
Don't know how much I'm gaining value from the essential oils themselves, but from the consistency of the ecosystem, right. My brain gains a lot of value from that. So I can sleep really well in a hotel. Whereas at home I don't sleep very well. Now with the pandemic, I'm finally getting to where I can sleep better at home, which is great. But yeah, so for me, the consistency of being on the road is that that's the homeostasis for me.
Warwick (
01:19:03
):
You are the ultimate road warrior, right?
Speaker 5 (
01:19:07
):
Right. Yeah. It used to be for quite a while, until the pandemic, if I was home for more than three days, I would get itchy. I would start going nuts because I was almost never in one place for more than three days, you know? So my what do they call it that your circadian rhythm or whatever, you know, my, my body's rhythm just completely got knocked out of balance if I was in one place for more than three days,
Warwick (
01:19:31
):
Rarely. And so you you'd like to work out to recharge. So do you you use the gyms now?
Speaker 5 (
01:19:38
):
I do. As much as I can. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And now with the, you know, with the pandemic, that's been challenging, but ironically enough, the first one, the first gym I found open in a hotel since going back on the road was just outside New York city.
Warwick (
01:19:52
):
No, I don't think I want to go in that gym yet.
Speaker 5 (
01:19:57
):
Any more pushups in the hotel room. Thank you. Did you work out this morning? I did. Absolutely. Yeah. And a half in the gym. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we have a gym. We live in an apartment complex here. And it has a, there's a gym in the clubhouse. So I had the chance to go in there actually, since being home for the holidays. I've been in the gym at least once every day, which has been fantastic.
Warwick (
01:20:23
):
So does it, does it okay. So let me ask you about the gym. Do you like this is always amazing. Do you like working out or do you like the feeling after working yet
Speaker 5 (
01:20:38
):
More the working out more than the after? Yeah. Yeah. And not that I, you know, I don't mind the feeling after, but it's the actual intensity of the working out part that really does it for me. It's, it's that releasing of the tension or, you know, whatever it is. It's the actual activity in itself that really gets me.
Warwick (
01:21:00
):
Okay. cause Robin, I don't know if you know, but I take I spots, I have a chest freezer full of water here and I take iceberg. I was talking to Robin about it yesterday and she said, now we're talking about it. And I said, you know, I still, I still don't like getting in it. Yeah. Okay. But the feeling you get when you get out, then like right now I had an ice bath, not long before we started on podcast here and my legs are still, I can still feel the aftereffects of the ice bath in my legs now. And it's been well, I've been out of it for about two hours now, I think. Yeah. And yeah, it's, it's, it's the thing about the ice bath is, you know, you have that, your body has that. Yes, no, yes, no, yes, no.
Warwick (
01:21:54
):
Do it. No, don't do it every time you go for the most part, every time you go to get in. I don't think I struggle with it as much anymore. Like thinking about the sporting. I just, I have this, I have a Spotify playlist. That's native American flute music. Oh, okay. Yeah. And the only time I listen to it is when I get in that ice bath. So as soon as I hear that music, I'm kind of in the air, in my eye, my breath changes to way my Brett's a lot longer because that's what I do, you know, in there is like info for out from six or seven or eight sort of Kenyans. So as soon as they hear that native American flute music, I just kind of go into, into, to that. And actually lately it's been getting to where I don't even mind being in there. And for the most part, the, the it's the feeling after you get out, that's, that's good for the longest time. It was not funny in there. It's almost getting now to where I'm in there and it's like, yeah, I can just chill here. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (
01:22:57
):
Yeah. You're a better man than I am. I can't do that hours. And I still, I still try to do them. Honestly. I do the cold showers more when I'm teaching in the cold, because I find that it's, it just kind of sets the stage. It's easier to go out and teach in the cold if I've done the cold showers. I hate them. You know, you want to hear all the language, a drunken sailor trucker might use you. Do you hang around when I'm taking a cold shower? Cause I make up all sorts of fun words.
Warwick (
01:23:26
):
Okay. Okay. Let me give you, can I help you out? He, Oh yeah. If you if you are swearing at the Coachella, you are fighting the culture. Absolutely. And child showers are like horses. Okay. If you want to have an argument go right ahead. You can have an argument. It's a bad, except that really the code show is about acceptance. If, if you don't fight it, it is so much less cold than if you, if you reject the co-chair it's, it's, it's painful. You've got to, you've got to, you've got to accept it.
Speaker 5 (
01:24:14
):
That's it. That's it. I don't know. That's why I go to Spain and Portugal in the winter. I just don't like,
Warwick (
01:24:18
):
Oh, but you know, I, I never used to like being cold in the slightest bit. Yeah. But for me, I really think not liking being cold is because it's a somatic experience. You are in your body when you're cold. And I used to, you know, being in my head so much, I didn't like being cold and I try to make it go away because I don't want to be my buddy. I want to be in my head. So, and I think the cold showers and the ice spots have really helped that, you know, I've been doing cold showers for almost two years now. I think I started January 12th or something or other two years ago. And the ice bath, I've only been doing them for about a year, I think. But yeah, it seems to be, it's getting it's, it's, it's getting easier.
Warwick (
01:25:06
):
And I was just listening to a good audio book for Christmas called what doesn't kill us when I'm Scott Carney. And a lot of it's about his time with Wim Hoff and some of the benefits of cold exposure and Brown anthropos fat and the whole bit the Brown fat instead of white fat and all that. And it's yeah, it was a fascinating, fascinating book. And just listening to it. I I don't know. Maybe I thought my ice bath was this morning was different than any one I've had before more. It was more acceptance and it was more peaceful, more serene. And I think it was because of that, that book I got for Christmas yesterday, I spent most of the afternoon on the tractor moving piles of gravel with my noise, canceling headphones on listening to that book. And yeah, I really think that some of the stuff he said in there made me even be more motivated to get back in that in the ice bath this morning. So
Speaker 5 (
01:26:08
):
That's cool. Very cool. Yeah. I think right now my equivalent of the ice baths is walking back and forth to the gym because we've got to, I've got to leave this building and it's a little bit of a Trek to the other. And right now this morning, I think it was about five degrees Fahrenheit. So, you know, going out, so it's so funny, the acceptance part, right. Because I'm not yet at the point where I'm okay. Accepting the cold shower, I'll fight it. But I've found myself recently walking back and forth to, and from the gym and intentionally slowing down rather than, you know, the brisk walk to get there really just slowing down. And because I'm in the, you know, the workout outfit, the shorts and the t-shirt or whatever slowing down and just being in it on my way, you know, rather than getting through it, the whole being in it part. That's about as close as I've gotten to the acceptance so far.
Warwick (
01:26:59
):
That's that's definitely acceptance. That's that's yeah. That's accepting it. Not rejecting it. The scurrying from one building to the others that rejecting it. Yeah,
Speaker 5 (
01:27:07
):
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Warwick (
01:27:10
):
Good stuff. Okay. One last question for you actually, before I get to that question, there's one question that everybody has answered except you,
Speaker 5 (
01:27:19
):
Oh, the spotlight's getting brighter now.
Warwick (
01:27:22
):
Yes. And I don't want you to answer this question now. I'm not even going to yeah, I'll go there. I'll go there. The question you didn't choose was what is your relationship with fear? And you don't have to answer that one, but that's the one that what's funny out of 20 questions and you, you know, I, I tell people to choose between four and six and most people have chosen four, you chose six. So you had a big range of questions, but you didn't choose that one. And this is not, you don't have to go into what is your relationship with fear? And it may just because these questions, it wasn't, you, it's not, you rejected that question. You just accept that these weren't, these were higher on your list, but it's interesting that everybody else has chosen that one question. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (
01:28:10
):
It's super interesting. And Lisa and I had a conversation and she got a good laugh at me about that, that question. Because I say we struggle because I'm fearful of even sitting in a rocking chair because of control issues. But I I would usually say that the three things I'm afraid of are spiders Heights and at least the, when she's angry the fear not necessarily
Warwick (
01:28:36
):
In that order,
Speaker 5 (
01:28:39
):
But it it's interesting because I, I find myself in a lot of ways going after that and trying to push into it. But then there's a lot of cases where I, I will kind of hang out, wait in the corner, you know, sort of the, the percolating on things like that. But like, you know, the idea of you know, for years I've been pretty arachnophobia. And many years ago, my daughter had a petting zoo was insistent that I hold this tarantula. And when I did, it was a completely changing experience, you know, I thought, well, I can't let it think she was two or three. I can't let a two or three-year-old kid see me scared. See me worried, you know, here's dad. Right. and when I did that, it completely changed things for me, you know, as far as looking that way. So that fear, I would say, you know, it's, it has completely gone because of a perspective change. Right. And I find a lot of times our fears is a perspective that maybe needs to be changed. The Heights and Lisa, when she's angry, I'm still pretty worried about those two things. So
Warwick (
01:29:44
):
That's it doesn't sound like you had true arachnephobia cause I think real retina phobics like the body shuts down when they say a spotter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a lady, a lady on now in Australia who was arachnephobia and she told me how the therapist had her get over her arachnophobia. And it's so much like training horses, not funny. And so many things that therapists do, like exposure therapy. But what the, so the, she does like digital advertising, stuff like that. And so the therapist said, so you work at a desk and she said yes. And they said, okay, because she doesn't even, she won't even look at a picture of a spotter, real spider, like she'll hyperventilate and pass out and things like that. And the therapist said, I want you to print out a picture of like a tarantula on a sheet of paper.
Warwick (
01:30:44
):
And if you can't print it out, have someone else print it out and then put it face down on your disk, on the corner of your desk and then put five other pieces of [inaudible] paper on top of it. So under the pile of paper, there's a picture of a spider that's face down. Yeah. That's your starting point. If you're comfortable that if that freaks you out, you may have to put it in an, in a a folder and put it in your bottom drawer and stop there. So, so what's that about the same as training horses, finding a starting point. Exactly. You got to find a starting point that's below threshold way below a place they're comfortable and work there, but let's say you put it face down on the desk, beside you with five pieces of paper on top of it, you will be aware that there's a picture of a spider there, and you'll have a little bit of apprehension, but it's not enough to make you have a full-blown meltdown. Leave it, leave it there for as long as it takes until one day you kind of go, so this might be a month. You kind of go, huh? I haven't thought about that picture of a spider for, I don't know how long then take one sheet of paper off the top. So now you have four sheets of paper away from a face down picture of a spider center and you a little bit and just leave there until
Warwick (
01:32:00
):
One day you kind of go, huh? I'm not concerned about that anymore. Then take another sheet of paper off and then do the same thing. And the same with training horses is any point in time, you get to where, if you take a sheet of paper off, it's too much for you, I'm going to go to meet clothes. You got to put all five pieces of paper back on and start from the beginning and work your way down again. And it's, it's what I think the technical people might call successive approximation. But it's, it's, it's trying to go, it's funny. A good starting point. Start working towards your thing. And if it falls to pieces, go all the way back to your starting point and static then. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. I was recently probably not recently, sometime this year, listening to a, I think it was a podcast by Jordan Peterson. Okay.
Speaker 5 (
01:32:57
):
I do. Yeah. Yeah.
Warwick (
01:32:59
):
From what I can tell people either love him or they hate him. There is no way
Speaker 5 (
01:33:02
):
In between it doesn't seem to be a middle ground. Yeah.
Warwick (
01:33:05
):
The only reason I was listening to him cause my son and I went to Mongolia last year, early this year in January and cross 300 kilometers of the Gobi desert on camels in the dead of winter. And one of the other travelers, there was 12 of us. I think one of the other people on the trip was Jordan Peterson, sister. Oh, right.
Speaker 5 (
01:33:26
):
I remember you talking about that. Yeah. And
Warwick (
01:33:28
):
So that's how I got look into him anyway, but he was so he's a clinical psychiatrist, but he was saying if someone has agoraphobia, which is fear of being outside he start talking about that. But then he started, he got onto elevators. So, but anyway, since let's say someone comes and sees me and she's, they're afraid of elevators and my office is on the fifth floor and she takes the stairs up. He said, what you don't do is you don't try to shove them in an elevator. You, you tell them. So outside my office, down at the end of the hole, about a hundred feet down the hole, there is an elevator. You think we could open my office door and peek around the corner at the elevator.
Warwick (
01:34:16
):
That's your starting point is peeking around the corner at the elevator. Yeah. Okay. Then if you can do that, maybe you can stand in the hallway and look down the hallway at the elevator. If that's good, maybe you can move two steps forward down the hallway towards the elevator, but there's always the opportunity to come back in here. So if you freak out, we can always come back in here. And, and, and that's, I think that's over the years, like doing clinics, I've had like mental health workers and stuff at clinics watching NABI and like at lunchtime, they'll come up and they go, Hey, what you're doing right there. That's called success at approximation or that's titration. Well that's. And so I, I really tend to count from the science from the back end. I, you know, I count from the empiric and you figuring out what works and what doesn't, and then you end up finding out that as a scientific reason it works or it doesn't. And they got all these technical names for it. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting stuff. So yeah,
Speaker 5 (
01:35:13
):
Really lost in those right. In the terms. And I, you know, I, I, I have several clients that are, you know, really smart that way. I have one clinic I teach in West Virginia, it's usually really small clinic, but I love it because there's like somebody that's got a doctorate in behavior modification and, you know, th there's like, these guys are really smart, you know, and they're, they're professors at the colleges have all these behavioral theories. And so when we're working with the horses, they still have all the same problems that everybody else has. Right. But when we're working with the horses, they can tell you what each of these things are and how they work and how they relate and that sort of thing. But even having the knowledge, of course, they still run into the same problems that everybody does, you know? So
Warwick (
01:36:02
):
Yeah. I, I tend to find that a bit from the scientific community that a lot of times they don't have any real world experience with horses. It can be, and it can get, I think it can get in the way of, I think it can actually get in the way of their experiments. I saw an experiment one time that they were trying that we're trying to prove, do horses, like positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement. And so they set up a T shaped shoot, whereas the horse goes down that, so that comes from the bottom of the T and they go up and they could either turn left or they could turn right. Okay. Get out of the chute. Okay. And what they would do with a block off one side of the shoot. So the horse can only go up and turn left or look at the other side.
Warwick (
01:36:51
):
So I'm going to go up and turn. Right. And what that would do is when the host went up, when they blocked off the right side, the horse would go up and go way out and it would find a food reward. So the left side with the food reward and they block the right side up. And then what they did after a while is the block to the left side off. And when the host went up that as he started going around the corner to go at that right side, there's a blast of air on the whole. He went out on the blast Bay went away. So that's the negative reinforcement. And I did that a number of times. And then what they did was they opened it up to where the horse didn't go to the left or to the right, whichever one they choose. Okay. And this is a video I'm watching. Okay. So the horse goes up and it turns left. Okay. So thereby we approved that horses horses would rather choose positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement. Okay. That's what the song, that's what the experiment proved. Okay. The horse goes up, turns left, and this is in a fully enclosed arena
Warwick (
01:37:57
):
Pathway. The host goes up tons left and walk straight down the end of the arena to the gate.
Speaker 5 (
01:38:05
):
Hmm.
Warwick (
01:38:06
):
Which any horse, you put a horse in a fully enclosed arena with an open gate, it will go and stand and look over the gate. They didn't realize that horses will do that anyway. And the way they set the experiment up was that the positive reinforcement was on the gate into the arena and the negative reinforcements on the other. I'm pretty sure if that had been flipped around, they would have went up. We thought that we'd like positive reinforcement. They actually like negative reinforcement because when we gave them the choice, they went that way. You're right at the experiment, not knowing that if you put a horse in a, in a fully enclosed arena where he can't see any other horses and there's an open doorway, he's going to go and hang his head over the door.
Speaker 5 (
01:38:46
):
Exactly. Which goes into the nation addiction kind of idea, a little bit in that he's getting back to where the safety is to whether the space feels better. Anyway,
Warwick (
01:38:54
):
That's not understanding the night shot of the creature that you were doing scientific experiments on. And I, I I'm really I really loved scientists doing experiments. But behavioral experiments with horses I find is I don't think they always get the right answer. And especially like we talked about before, what you're thinking, what you're feeling, what your intention, what your energy is affects, the horse
Speaker 5 (
01:39:23
):
Absolutely changes everything.
Warwick (
01:39:26
):
Yeah. And so whoever's working with the horse, you know, that's, it's quantum physics at the observer effect, but whoever is working with the horse is, is, is you know, changing that. So anyway, yeah. Sometimes think that some scientific stuff on horses is not that scientific. Okay. One more question for you here that you chose, what, what do you think it means to be a leader and a follower? So what does leadership followership look like to you?
Speaker 5 (
01:39:58
):
Oh boy. What does it look like to me? You know, I think that's, that's a great question. I think it's super interesting in, in the introspection of it, you know, to me, the great leader would be somebody that I would say has the plan but is capable and willing to deviate as necessary. And being the good follower is someone who's willing to follow the plan, but capable of making decisions also along the way, you know, and I find that that's where people get into trouble with their horses is that they often don't allow them the opportunity to make decisions. You know, they just want the thing to happen. You know, Susie just wants the horse to walk down the trail, right? Well, maybe there's 27 other things that need to be adjusted for on the way to the trail or down the trail, you know, and I feel like the allows for those adjustments as necessary. And the follower speaks up about needing those adjustments.
Warwick (
01:41:02
):
Very, very, very good answer. You know, that's almost quite similar to Steve Peters, his response to that. And I think Steve's was really good too, but it was, it was very, very similar great, great answer. So I think we probably should wrap this up for this time. Cause otherwise we'll be here for like six hours and this thing will be the world's longest
Speaker 5 (
01:41:25
):
Podcasts might be our shortest discussion yet.
Warwick (
01:41:28
):
Hey so how do people, if they aren't aware of Patrick King and who he is and what he does what's the best way to learn more about you contact you all those sorts of
Speaker 5 (
01:41:40
):
That's the way to find out more about me? Oh, I think right now the best way to find out more about me is through social media, my Facebook page, Patrick King horsemanship. I had the website PK, horsemanship.com for anybody who might be interested in the in hand work that we focus on in the course that we have there's balance in hand.com. It gives you information about that. I'm on Facebook and Instagram and a YouTube. I do a lot of videos that I put out there on YouTube. I need to get those updated. But yeah, and then they can always reach out to me the old fashioned way through the telephone and those or the email that's on all of my social media as well.
Warwick (
01:42:20
):
So how does someone who travels 350 days a year, get time to make videos
Speaker 5 (
01:42:28
):
In the hotel room? Actually, that's how the podcasts got started because I would have so many people sending in questions that I was doing. I called them my almost daily, Q and a, where it would just be me sitting at the desk in a hotel, or even sitting in the car, answering somebody's question and figuring that, you know, if one person has this question, chances are a hundred people have this question. They just haven't asked it yet. And so then I would put that out there as a live Facebook feed and people started saying, you know, what I really love about your videos is that I don't have to watch them and to begin with, I thought, well, that's kind of a backend like, Oh man, that guy he's got a face for newspaper, right. Or a face for radio. Isn't that how that goes, but a face for radio and a voice for newspaper.
Speaker 5 (
01:43:11
):
But you know, then they clarify, they're like, look, it's always the same picture. It doesn't matter what it looks like, but I could be cooking dinner and I can listen to what you're doing. And that's what I thought, you know, that's really cool. We could make a podcast out of that. So that's how the podcast got started. Yeah. But so the videos and sometimes in a clinic, I'll say, Hey, can I borrow your horse for five minutes? And we'll do this little quick demo clip or something like that. But yeah, most of the time it's, it's just the boring video of me in the hotel room or in the car answering a question.
Warwick (
01:43:41
):
You know, it's interesting, you, you mentioned earlier about, you would sometimes see 300 horses a month in clinics.
Speaker 5 (
01:43:49
):
That's my average. Yeah. And I
Warwick (
01:43:52
):
Think, I think I've been quite lucky being able to do a lot of clinics because when you have a new idea, instead of trying that new idea on one horse, you get to try that new idea on a lot of horses
Speaker 5 (
01:44:07
):
And the horses are pretty
Warwick (
01:44:09
):
Honest, the bad, if something's a good idea or not
Speaker 5 (
01:44:12
):
Exactly, you know,
Warwick (
01:44:14
):
It's, it's kinda like with like with scientists, with a study, they will, you know, they've got to have a number of horses, but they, a lot of times it'll be 24 horses or 16 horses or whatever. It's not rubbish. They don't have the time to interact with how many horses in a year, you know, like, you know, a thousand horses or more, you know, you, you get a lot of great information from that. Something that was, so I have found, I was going to mention earlier, before we go, something else I've found is that when I'm teaching, sometimes I will explain something in such a way in the moment and I'll kind of go, huh? I just, I just let a deeper truth about that, that I didn't know. And I probably wouldn't have discovered if I wasn't explaining in real time what I'm doing and how it's affecting them. You find that
Speaker 5 (
01:45:14
):
I, I tell people all the time, there is no one who will learn more at a clinic than I will.
Warwick (
01:45:20
):
It's pretty, it's pretty crazy. And especially, it's not an especially doing clinics to where you are not just demonstrating what you can do. So it's not just you working with the horse, it's explaining what you were doing while you were doing it. Exactly.
Speaker 5 (
01:45:38
):
A lot of what I'm doing too is you know, my clinics, aren't like the group sessions, you know, like a lot of one-on-one, you know, lesson for the most part, I do have some group sessions here and there. But it's the not only explaining what you're doing, but then explaining what someone else needs to do. Right. And coaching that other person and finding the 487 different ways to say, you know, do this or feel that, or try to get this happen, you know? Yeah. That, that can be challenging. And that's, I think that's where you really learn about how the process works is when your, the word puppeting maybe sounds negative, but when you're puppeting someone else to get these things to happen that's where, you know, there's a much deeper, I think, understanding that needs to happen there.
Warwick (
01:46:29
):
Yeah. So I've found that a lot. Now we will, we'll try to wrap up and then we went down another rabbit hole. It didn't mean we weren't do that. Becka said, Patrick, thank you so much for joining me. You're going to be out here in California soon and hopefully we will get to catch up.
Speaker 5 (
01:46:45
):
Yeah. I'm looking forward to that. Absolutely. Thank you. Work for inviting me on here. This been fun as always,
Warwick (
01:46:50
):
Always great fun chatting with you. Yes. I can't wait till next time. So everybody listening. Thank you so much for joining us on the journey on podcast and we'll catch you on the next episode.
Patrick (
01:47:02
):
Thanks for listening to the journey on podcast with work Schiller Warrick has over 650 full length training videos on his online video library at videos dot Wark, schiller.com. Be sure to follow Warrick on YouTube, Facebook, and Instagram, to see his latest training advice and insight.