Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep37 - Puppies That Shiver After First Solid Foods: Are They Cold or Calibrating?

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist.

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And this is a Puppy Culture
Potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,

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we bring the conversation.

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This episode's topic is about puppies

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that shiver after new big sensory

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experiences, particularly after eating.

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And I'm not going
to read the original post

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because the topic came up
in the comments on the post.

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But what I'll say generally is that
the post was

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a video of a three and a half week
old puppy

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that had just eaten a meal
and was vocalizing.

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And the puppy also happened to be sort

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of trembling or shivering.

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And a number of people wrote in, well,
you know, the puppy's too cold.

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He needs look, he's shivering.

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He needs a heat source.

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And the original poster
replied, it's 75°F in the room.

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Should be warm enough. It was not a breed

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that was extremely small or tended to run
cold.

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In fact, it's a breed
that probably runs hot.

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So I mentioned that shivering is common
when puppies are first

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consuming food on their own,
or even just drinking milk on their own.

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And I used to think that it was

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because the food was too cold
or the room was too cold.

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But no matter how
I adjusted those variables,

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no matter how warm I made the room,
no matter how warm I made the food,

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even if I added like a snuggle safe
or a heat source,

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nothing seemed to make a difference,

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at least not with those first few meals.

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Meanwhile, I started noticing

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in our discussion groups that

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breeders were writing in and reporting

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that their puppies were shaking
or shivering with other kinds

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of new big sensory experiences, things
like being carried into new room,

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placed on a new surface, given some sort
of new tactile object or toy.

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And of course,

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often also in response to first foods.

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The thing is,

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these events were happening

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generally
before the initial fear response,

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and they did not appear to have any

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noticeable emotion component
other than maybe the discomfort

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of the the shaking or trembling.

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And I've come to believe
that this is just a sensory

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integration response, especially

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because these breeders,
these other breeders have reported

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similar responses
around this age to any new big

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sensory experience.

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The discussion around
this was super interesting.

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And I want to share some of these comments
with you.

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Here's one we have always referred to this

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as the meat shakes,
as it consistently happens

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after the first few meals
of meat milk slurry.

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And then someone else said, yup, this.

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We see it in neonatal kittens
around the same age from the same thing.

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Meat shakes.

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Yeah.

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A few
people mentioned seeing it in kittens,

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and at least one other member reported

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seeing it in goats as well.

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Here's another.

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Never saw it in our first 23 letters,
but in current litter,

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two of them did that during the first week
when I started to give them food,

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they shivered after eating
maybe 15 minutes, then slept peacefully.

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Always the same. Two pups.

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Normally I give puppies their first meal
when they're 3.5 or 4 weeks old,

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but this time the litter was big
and mama didn't have much milk,

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so I started warmed starter moose
plus goat milk

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when the pups were two
and a half weeks old.

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I didn't see it any more after
the puppies were three and a half weeks.

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Me talking again.

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Let's put a pin in that.

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Could there be an age differential?

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Here's another one.

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I suspect it's a physiological response
to increased blood

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flow to the GI
tract to aid digestion of the new food.

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At this age, the puppies have an immature
system, to mean consistent

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or adequate hemostatic pressure
in response to altered blood flow demands.

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So they shiver as they have changed
peripheral or other blood flow.

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That's just my theory.

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I don't know if there's any truth to it,
but it makes sense to me.

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And then somebody responded.

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That was my take as well.

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I also noticed that their feet felt cold.

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So me again, interesting

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blood being diverted for digestion

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and the immature system
for maintaining hemostatic pressure.

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Interesting. Yeah.

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Could be.

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Especially with the sort of
smoking gun of the cold feet.

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Here's another one.

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I'm not a breeder,
but I did use Puppy Culture

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because my breeder used it
and recommended it.

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So I read and learn and learn and read.

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I do have an adult autistic child

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and she had the same phenomenon
as a young girl.

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Her clinicians explained it to me
and forgive me if I do not use

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the most technical terminology,
but here's the summary.

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When nervous systems are in the middle
of a major growth phase called

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the transitional period,
during this window, sensory pathways

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touch and smell, proprioception,

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are rapidly turning on.

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The brain is shifting
from primitive reflexes

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to early conscious processing.

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The nervous system is still learning how

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to integrate new information smoothly.

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A brief shiver is the nervous systems way
of calibrating itself

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when something new enters
the sensory world.

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This is often called
a transient sensory integration tremor.

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The brainstem,

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thalamus, cortex
handoff is still stabilizing.

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The shiver is the bridge.

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The process is galvanizing the pathways
that give rise to being open

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to a world of wonderment.

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Yeah.

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I mean, it makes a lot of sense.

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Sensory integration tremor.

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It it does seem like a match.

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But note that in humans at least,

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the sensory integration
tremors are brief and transitory.

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Puppies tend to shake for a good stretch

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after eating or having a big experience,

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but I definitely think
that this is describing

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at least a component of what's going on.

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You know,
there's also this concept of frisson

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which is the chills and tremors
that you get with tremendous

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emotional experience,
like listening to music

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or just having any kind of like
watching a movie that is very emotional.

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The goosebumps that you get.

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In any event,

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when the parasympathetic
nervous system is activated,

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it can cause this kind of release
that causes the body to shake.

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And eating something good

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and pleasurable,
especially if it's never happened to you

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before, definitely could activate
the parasympathetic nervous system.

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That's
why training with food rewards has such

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a strong positive effect.

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In human babies,
I've heard this called the want shiver.

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If you give a baby something new,
especially something they like.

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It can definitely elicit
a shaking or shivering response.

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But again, in humans at least,

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these are usually very short duration,
just like that.

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As she described it,
that sort of little bridge.

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In puppies.

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It tends to be of a longer duration,
but I'm just going to say,

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let's add sensory integration tremor
to this list of things

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that could it could either be
or could be contributing factors.

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Here's another comment.

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After food makes sense,

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need to be in a parasympathetic state

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to quote rest and digest, unquote.

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And then she put up a quote here.

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Parasympathetic shaking refers
to the natural body mechanism

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of shaking to release tension
and restore the nervous system to a calm

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rest and digest state
after a stressful event.

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It's an involuntary response, also known
as neurogenic tremory, that helps the body

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return to a parasympathetic state
by releasing stored sympathetic energy.

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Me again.

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Essentially, it's an adrenaline dump.

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And also just an adjacent topic that I'm
not going to go way down this rabbit hole.

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But just because something is pleasurable
does not mean it's not stressful.

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Big emotional events,
even if it's positive emotional events,

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it it's stressful for the body

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to integrate all of this amazing knowledge
that's coming in that,

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wow, there's this stuff
I can put in my mouth,

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and then it goes down on my stomach
and it does, oh, wow.

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This is amazing.

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It's still stress in the sense
of taxing the nervous system.

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And the body.

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Okay.

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And here's a different take
from another member.

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Could be.

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Interesting topic.

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However, shivering
can definitely be caused

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by different physiologic pathways.

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Thermogenesis or sympathetic

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nervous system activation.

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One pathway is just trying
to regulate body temperature.

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The other is responding to fear
or excitement.

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If puppies are shaking while
eating or anticipation of eating,

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I'd say that's maybe the same thing
as integrating new experiences.

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Mine shiver after meals,

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which sounds like a common thing,
based on the comments.

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I think that even in a warm room,

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their system just needs to shiver

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like someone with a fever will shiver.

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Their core body
temperature drops when they eat food

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other than milk the first few times.

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Is it possible
that their thermoregulation system

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is just coming online fully at the age
when they start eating food?

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This is a

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really interesting comment,
because this ties

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back to the earlier comment
that someone made

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about younger puppies
being more likely to shake,

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because by this theory,
the younger puppies

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would have less
well developed thermoregulation

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and be more likely to actually get cold
when they eat.

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It's a really interesting

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and appealing argument,
but I do have to say,

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the puppies that have done it,
that I've had, that have done it,

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have done it,
even when I make their formula

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that they're lapping
very warm, warmer than body temperature.

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So you kind of have to wonder
if this were true,

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you know, why wouldn't
they get the shakes when they nurse?

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Why is it when transition to food.

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Well, here's another theory
this breeder writes in and I quote.

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It's called gluttony.

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This is why pups should have a dish each.

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So not to overeat.

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Slow and steady.

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It doesn't happen.

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Yeah.

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At least 4 or 5 breeders wrote in
and said they felt the shaking was caused

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by overeating.

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And interestingly, all of those breeders
were bull terrier breeders.

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I mean,
there were a couple hundred responses,

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and it's not like it was mostly bull
terrier people.

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It was proportionately
probably the same amount of bull terrier

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people as there are bull
terrier breeders to other breeders.

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So it's not like the bull terrier
people were overrepresented,

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so we got a lot of differing
points of view from them.

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I mean, it seems like this is a phenomenon

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definitely recognized in our breed.

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Overeating is not something
that I have controlled for,

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so I do wonder if it's possible
that once they're eating on their own,

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they're capable of
just getting more food down

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their gullet more quickly,
than would be possible while nursing.

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The last few litters I've had

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have been less eager
to take food early in general

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and been less, I would say
gluttonous than my previous litters.

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So there's that.

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Maybe. Maybe there is something to this.

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Maybe those puppies

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were self-regulating in a way
that some of my other litters didn't.

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I also have become a lot more methodical
about my weaning process

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and how I introduce food,

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and I tend to build it up
much more slowly than I used to,

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instead of just throwing a plate of slop
at the puppies, I'm

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adding small amounts of different foods
over time,

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so it's possible
that that's a contributing reason

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why I haven't seen it
in my most recent litters.

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It's not something I've tracked
in the past this over eating, but

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it's an interesting theory and I'm going
to pay more attention to it in the future.

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I was so fascinated by this conversation

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that I put up a poll
to see how prevalent the phenomenon was.

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Now, if I had been clever,
I would have given a choice

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00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:53,120
for no, I've never seen this phenomenon,

249
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,360
but I didn't make that one of the choices,

250
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,360
so I didn't capture that data.

251
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,320
I can say just from the comments
that were made that many,

252
00:15:04,320 --> 00:15:08,840
if not most, of the total litters
in the world do not do this.

253
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:12,240
And for sure not every litter will do it.

254
00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:15,960
I would say I've seen it
in about 25% of my own litters.

255
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,880
So a total of 232
people answered this poll.

256
00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,000
And here's what they said:

257
00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,760
131 breeders, 56% said

258
00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:33,360
that they had seen this phenomenon
after eating, 43 breeders,

259
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,360
19% said they had seen it

260
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,680
when putting the
puppy in a new room or space,

261
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,920
40 breeders, 17%

262
00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,000
said they had seen it
when placing a puppy on a new surface,

263
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,360
nine breeders, 4%

264
00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:54,960
had seen it when a puppies lifted, six

265
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,040
breeders, 3% noticed it
when meeting new people.

266
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,120
And then two breeders, 1% of the total

267
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,840
saw it, when giving puppies
a new toy or sensory object.

268
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,480
So this was a really interesting
discussion.

269
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,040
If you're on any of our Facebook
discussion groups,

270
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,640
please do stop by
and share your experience.

271
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,760
If you're not already part
of our discussion groups,

272
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,840
you can go to our fan
page, Puppy Culture on Facebook.

273
00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,840
We did have this discussion there as well,

274
00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:32,560
but I can't recommend enough that you join
one of our discussion groups.

275
00:16:32,800 --> 00:16:34,440
You don't need to be part of our courses

276
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,000
to join the Puppy Culture
discussion group on Facebook.

277
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,320
And if you ask anybody who's part of
these groups, they're going to tell you,

278
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,840
these are great, safe spaces
for intelligent

279
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:48,840
conversation about dogs.

280
00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:53,160
If you liked this podcast,
you'll love our breeder discounts.

281
00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:54,560
Breeders.

282
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,480
You can get your puppy owners off
to the right start,

283
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,560
and also get a nice discount
when you buy four or more copies

284
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,920
of our Puppy Course
or any of our Puppy Owner bundles.

285
00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,400
Check them out at puppyculture.com.

286
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,720
Well, that's it for this time.

287
00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:12,760
Thanks for listening. Bye bye.