10,000 Joys & 10,000 Sorrows: DEAD Serious Practice to Abundant Enoughness | James Baraz Q&A

Welcome to Wednesday evening with the
Clear Mountain Monastery community. This
evening we're very happy to have James
Beerez with us. James, thanks so much
for joining us.
>> A real pleasure.
>> Yeah.
>> So, I'll read James biography. So, James
Bez is a founding member of the Spirit
Rock Meditation Center. He started the
community dharma leader program, the
Kyana Mitta Network, the spirit rock
family program, and helped create the
heavenly messengers training program.
James serves as a guiding teacher to One
Earth Sana, a virtual ecoharma center
devoted to Buddhist responses to climate
change. He co-authored Awakening Joy and
Awakening Joy for Kids and also leads I
think yearly online courses uh on
Awakening Joy since 2003. So um James,
we're really happy to have you here and
as people can hear if they don't yet
know you, this theme of joy is one which
has been a a throughine it seems in your
your dharma life. But just reading
actually the the preface, the intro to
awakening joy, it sounded like there was
maybe a somewhat long significant period
in your practice when joy was not there.
I think you talk about being dead all
caps d a d serious about meditation and
that joy was not really a part of your
uh meditation life, your Buddhist life,
your contemplative life. Can you talk a
bit maybe about that period before we go
deeper into joy and maybe curious also
what changed?
>> Sure.
>> Um Oh, I'm getting an echo. Oh, no. I
now I got it. That's good. Um
yeah, first just want to say it's a real
pleasure to be here and to hang out with
uh with the two of you. I've been really
enjoying
um getting to know you through your
through your recordings. I love your
10-minute Majima and um and all the uh
all the other beautiful work that you've
been doing. So, um just so happy to
spend the time.
>> Uh as far as uh joy, yeah, it it it was
a bit of a a trajectory. Um
I I came to the to Buddha Dharma first
from um well
Where I really got into the dharma was
um through a bakti vehicle um reading be
here now in the
early 70s. It came out in 71 and it was
like my Bible for uh for a few for it's
always been my Bible in in a way but for
those first few years and then uh got uh
went out to Colorado and uh when Nuropa
was first starting and asked Ramdas who
was one of my two teachers about uh
about meditation because I'd been doing
transcendental meditation and and he
said okay check this guy Goldstein out
Joseph Goldstein, he's pretty good. And
Joseph had just come back from Asia. And
uh when I heard the Dharma in that
summer of 74, it was like coming home.
>> And it was I had found what I was
looking for. And for quite a while, I
had um a pretty long um honeymoon
period, as people sometimes when they
discover the dharma and they say, "This
is it." and just
screaming down the the streets, you just
have to be mindful. You just have to be
mindful. And you know, I was uh I love
to turn people on to things that I
believe in. So, um that was the best
thing I could think of that that lasted
for probably about 10 years in that that
level. And I also I started I was
teaching uh at some point during that
time. Uh then at some point I um I did
lose my joy and um for me
and it can happen in many ways but uh I
became very serious about my practice as
you quote me dead serious. I think
actually Ajun Sumed was the one who uh I
I might have lifted that from him in
somewhere in in my my brain cells. But
um I took on a more
strict
uh Burmese style approach to practice
practicing with some really great
masters. uh one of whom is sitting a
three-month retreat and every evening at
the end of his his dharma talk he'd say
as I recall uh may you attain nibbana
and speedily escape from the woes of
this world
>> and the message was get out of here as
fast as you can
and um
there I was having a very deep retreat
actually but getting that message that
it's not okay to
delight in life and celebrate life
>> which had been a very big part of my
nature so um it was a little confusing
it was very confusing and um I
even though and I was teaching even
though I I unders I understood on a
conceptual level otherwise wise uh there
was something
somatically that felt
um out of sync uh because I was getting
this subtle message no it's it's not
okay to enjoy life and and I do enjoy
life whether it's music or sports or you
know loving life uh I do have a bakti
nature
Um
and then uh but hanging in there and you
know believing in the dharma and
believing in in in practice and it
wasn't really until um actually what
what brought me back. A few things
brought me back. One it was seeing okay
this is this can't be what the Buddha
spoke about uh was talking about because
he was called the happy one. He wasn't
called the the joyless one. uh and he
talked a lot about joy. So
>> um actually it wasn't until
I met a teacher, another teacher, not a
Buddhist teacher. Maybe I'll I'll hold
this up. This is another one of my
teachers.
>> Punj
HWL Punja. uh Papa G, an advited
teacher, a disciple of Ra Ramana
Maharashi
um or Dharma heir of Ramana Maharshi and
uh and he
helped me break the spell and in fact um
I just saw somebody just sent me a a
video of the of the conversation at the
end of being there for three weeks that
did it. I never realized there was a
video that existed, but they they put
something out, a compilation of a number
of different dialogues. And in that
dialogue, I asked Punji, I said, you
know, you talk about emptiness all the
time. It was his favorite word. And I
said, I have one last question. Because
you say, give me your questions. Give me
all your questions.
I have one last question. Give me your
question. And I said, when you
when Buddhists speak about emptiness and
Buddhist teachers,
there's this somnity, this
mysteriousness,
the just the profound understanding of
emptiness.
You talk about emptiness and you're
laughing and you're having just a great
time. Why is your emptiness so much more
fun than
than mine? What I'm going what I've been
going through or what what I think
Buddhists often present. Terraodan
Buddhists, Terraodan Burmese Buddhists.
Um
and in that I was exposed to not all of
them but that was what I was exposed to.
And um and he
he said, you know, if you have
if you've touched emptiness from the
stillness of a meditation cushion, it
can easily be um misunderstood that that
is that is the real access to emptiness.
uh and that appearances
are
less
less noble, less less refined. That's
that's just a distraction. And he said,
"My emptiness, my emptiness, nothing is
rejected from my emptiness. My joy, my
sorrow, my uh love, my anger, nothing is
rejected." And then he would laugh
and it it it it it help it break broke
the spell to see oh
samsara and nirvana are one and you know
it's like yeah or there all these
teachings if you're if you hang out with
the Tibetans or you hang out with Ajan
Cha who laughed a lot um then um it
brought me back to myself. So, um that
was when I decided, okay, where did I
where did I miss the point here and um I
want to see just what the Buddha did say
about joy, not just the quiet joy on the
cushion, but
>> being alive and and and being fully
engaged in life.
>> That started me on that that other
direction in my practice.
Thank you, James. Your trajectory is one
that I think mirrors many of ours. Uh
the Buddhist speaks about the chtokila
in the Majimakaya, like these
barrennesses of the heart, like you
know, land that hasn't been rained on
for months at a time. And you know, so
many of the words you're right, he
speaks about joy all the time, but
there's all these words he uses. There's
pity, you know, rapture, refreshment in
meditation, or suka, pleasure compared
to water. And you speak about that
visceral sense. Uh there's pimoja. Um
there's muda rejoicing. There's
gratitude which you speak of. Um and you
know I'm curious like these stories have
an impact because they symbolize a
turning point but also they're not
enough. You know for you you then really
moved your at least as far as I
understand much of your intention
towards drawing out these modes of of
joy and um awakening joy. you know,
these fundamentals of 10 ways that
people are accessing that well-being and
even in the midst of a very difficult
world um and the woe, you know, the
woefilled world or whatever the the
teacher was referencing there. So, what
what practical means would you give
people in terms of finding that joy in
their life when their practice had
become dry or
>> uh you know where they really were up
against that same barrenness of heart?
Um yeah that that that's the question um
that I asked myself too and um
when I was looking at this in at the
teachings I wanted this all to be really
based on the the teachings or I didn't
have a plan. Oh I'm going to write a
book and do a course. I was like I was
finding it for myself. Um and um
one teaching
that was actually there were three
teachings that that the whole thing uh
the whole course and the book was based
on one is um on uh wise effort uh which
there's four as you know I'll just share
with those listening um there are four
components to wise effort guarding
against the unh wholesome
overcoming the unh wholesome when it
when it arises. Cultivating the
wholesome.
>> And the fourth that doesn't get a whole
lot of airplay
maintaining and in some
translations maintaining and increasing
wholesome states when they arise.
What is that about maintaining and
increasing a wholesome state? How do you
do that?
And then I came across
another lesserk known suta. I'm sure you
know it. You'll be getting to it
probably in another couple of months.
It's mima 99
>> suba
>> tuba.
>> Yeah.
>> Where he talks about equipment of mind
and just getting shivers as I remember.
uh he says
there is a gladness connected with what
is wholesome.
There is, and I take that to mean,
there's a feeling of uplift that is
experienced. And in that suta, he says,
if you're in the middle of a generous
act, it's good to think to yourself, oh,
I'm being generous now.
Not, hey, check it out and look how
generous I am, but just, oh, how good it
feels for generosity to move through me.
And then in the suta
uh he says that gladness connected with
the wholesome I call an equipment of
mind to overcome all ill will and
hostility. One gains inspiration in the
in the meaning inspiration in the
dharma. Uh one delights in the dharma.
So
that was a key because
um that gladness is more than just an
idea. It's a it's a somatic experience.
And it's shown in neuroscience when you
pay attention to a feeling of uplift
with mindful awareness,
it deepens it and increases it. And
that's how you maintain and increase the
wholesome state, not by grasping. As
soon as you grasp it, it's turned into
an unh wholesome state because
unh wholesome states are states of
contraction. And cusala, wholesome
states are states of expansion. So for
me, that's that's the whole game right
there. And so when you're having a state
of expansion, even if it's just a slight
shift from contraction to expansion,
that's good enough. Then just pay
attention to it. So all of awakening joy
sometimes is distilled by people and I
say now in three words, don't miss it
>> because it's so easy to miss it. But to
take it in,
marinate in it, savor it without
grasping and that's how you deepen it.
Which goes to the the the third
principle where in Majima 19 whatever
the practitioner frequently thinks and
ponders upon that will become the
inclination of the mind. So I thought,
okay, there are all of these wholesome
states.
We can cultivate them over time and keep
on paying attention when they arise and
over time they start to become your
default setting
>> because you start to be on the lookout
for the good, which counteracts a very
strong negative confirmation bias of
looking for what's wrong. So that's when
I put these different 10 states
together. So to in in that long-winded
way to answer your your question, when
you're experiencing
a moment of goodness, of wholesome
happiness or well-being,
don't miss it.
>> Really be with it. Marinate in it. Just
take it in. It's and instead of
thinking, oh, feeling good right now,
oh, this is what it feels like to feel
good. And just those few moments make
all the difference.
>> Yeah, really really appreciate that,
James. And uh a lot of resonance you
know as a young man in my early 20s
thinking about monastic life seeing
these old photos of Mahasi Siad or uh
Pandita you know just so stern and I
thought that was you know the mo the
serious practitioners the ones who were
really doing it right are the ones who
are basically never smiling and I think
it was a great good fortune maybe for
both of us but certainly for me to come
to these ajancha monasteries and meet
Ajan Pasnau, a direct student of Ajan
Cha, who you know had seen people
picking up Buddhism uh and especially
monastic Buddhism, but also just Burmese
flavored Buddhism in the the ways that
we pick it up in the West. Um he's seen
people try to do that hardcore way, like
super serious, I'm the most serious
because I don't smile mode of things.
And one of his teachings which I really
took to heart uh and was so good for me
was he says you know people in America
they think that uh once I get my
meditation together then I'll be happy.
But you find this pattern in the sutas
where the Buddha says it's actually the
other way around. It's once you get your
happiness together then the meditation
will start clicking into place. and he
was referring to something which I've
come to call the well-being cascade
which is
>> it it it's pointed to in that suba suta
uh from a number of different entrances
one when doing an act of generosity or
recollecting I'm someone who tells the
truth it gives rise to pamoa well-being
connected to the dharma connected to the
meaning
>> which leads to pity or rapture which
leads to tranquility which leads to suka
or happiness which then leads to
concentration
And there's all sorts of sutas where
that kind of pattern comes comes in. And
what one of the things I appreciate
appreciated about your book was that the
first step um was all about intention.
And I think just a meta recognition that
yeah, you have to pay attention. You
have to pay attention to it and really
intend in the direction of of well-being
and joy. Um could you say more about
that that first step?
>> Yeah. Yeah. By the way and just uh want
to mention a very brief anecdote on what
you're saying. When I went to I I I
shared with you a picture uh last week
or this week of visiting Ajan Cha in
that in 1977. We went to first visit
Mahasi Sadawa who and we had this
two-year-old very this cute kid that
made everybody laugh. And when when
Mahasi when Mahasi Sai was there and he
started to laugh he put or smile he put
his fan up because it was unseammly for
a monk to smile and I was saying wow if
this is where it's going I don't know
if I'm ready to dive into this
>> fortunately then we visited Ajancha
right after that and Ajenta was laughing
and just so light and Jeep and I said,
"Okay, if this is where it leads, I'm
in." So, um, but I forgot about that
part when I got into that very serious
stuff after being with the brain. But,
um, so, um, yeah. So, the
So, just reframe the question one more
time as far as the
>> if you could. Yeah. No, thank you for
that anecdote. I was wondering um I
would love at some point if you could
flesh out that that scene of meeting
Ajan Cha. I think I've heard about the
different um Dharma teachers that went
there in 1977 um but wasn't exactly who
who all went and how long you stayed and
if Ajan Babakaro or Ajan Sumido were
translating. So would like to hear more
about that. But also the question was
about intention in general.
>> Yeah, intention
it all starts with intention. Uh that's
you know the Buddha said intending I
tell you is karma you know through body
speech and mind or that the Tibetans say
um everything rests on the tip of one's
motivation.
So
uh that makes complete sense to me. It's
one thing to know the teachings and to
um to be inspired by them, but to
connect it with
a decision
uh to
it's one thing to have the idea, but it
the power comes from deciding
to place well-being in the center of
your life, which is a radical kind of a
thing because you know, oh, I should be
last or it's not okay for me to be happy
when everyone else is when there's so
much suffering in the world or oh, if I
really let myself feel good, then the
shoe's going to drop on the other foot
and I'll be so disappointed and all and
or we just postpone it or when I when I
find the right partner, when I get the
right job, when I retire, then I'll be
happy. Uh and as the Buddha is saying,
no. Okay. Right here, right now,
have the intention
not out of selfishness, but actually out
of
a generosity because everybody
gets the benefit of your well-being.
um that uh to um to cultivate and see
your own well-being uh is what unlocks
all the beautiful qualities uh for
everyone to share. So um it all starts
with that decision.
>> James, the uh following um steps include
one called joy in difficult times.
And I know this is something you really
grappled with uh confronting the climate
crisis which led to wonder and
>> I think it's on a lot of people's minds
right now with the current situation in
the world um
>> uh which you know people can have
different opinions about but certainly a
lot of people have a lot of fear and
anger.
How what advice would you give people?
What kind of practical steps um or or
really concrete movements of heart and
uh mind and and you know life life would
you give them for holding well-being and
their center in the midst of you know
the deluge. Yeah,
that that is the um
that's the question facing every
practitioner and probably every uh every
person who cares about kindness and
inclusivity and um and understands
interconnectedness.
um how to not just stay sane,
uh not be overwhelmed, but how to bring
out the best in the middle of all of
this
ignorance, confusion. Um,
and for me, one of a simple a simple
way, well, it's it's kind of it's right
out of the Buddha's teachings, but um
I'm very inspired by Joanna Macy, who I
was fortunate enough to have a a
friendship with, who just passed away uh
this past year. She lived right here in
Berkeley. And in her spiral, it says it
very well. I don't know if you're
familiar with her spiral in the work
that reconnects.
Um, and it's
this is what I do in Awakening Joy,
although I hadn't actually been familiar
with her spiral when I first read it.
But, uh, her spiral starts out with
gratitude.
First, you open up to all the good in
life
because
it's so easy to miss it by tuning into
whatever headline is going on and go, I
can't believe it today. Oh my god. And
every day it's it can seem to get
crazier and you forget and miss out on
all the goodness in life. So, it starts
with that perspective.
And in my
my book in my course after intention and
mindfulness being the key then is
gratitude opening up to all the good
that creates a container
to process all the sorrow.
Um, one Tibetan teacher, uh, Sokni
Rimpresh talks about
gratitude
both to the lineage and to life as kind
of like putting out your satellite dish
where you're saying thank you. And when
you say thank you, then all the
blessings of life can be received. But
if you're going around, oh, we're doomed
and oh, there's no hope and oh, there's
this wrong and that wrong, you can't
even receive the blessings of life. So,
you keep in mind all the good. And in my
mind, there's many more people who
love goodness than love
mean-spiritedness.
Um, so it's in there, I think. And I
think all of us just want to be loved
and uh and feel safe. Uh, but that's a
big part to not miss when there is
wholesomeness when you do have a
a toilet that flushes. That's what's
just coming up in my mind right now. I'm
not censoring myself. or or food that
that that is healthy or medical care or
access to, you know, there's so much to
tune into.
And that bigger container helps you then
honestly process all the pain
>> and and it you you can't bypass that. If
you if you do, you're just living in
denial. And that's why the Buddha said
started out with the first noble truth.
Yet you the more you understand and can
can not be afraid of suffering, the more
you come to the end of suffering. So to
then feel all the pain
in a in a skillful way where you know
your window of tolerance
>> but feel it, process it, honor it, honor
the sadness. It's what deepens your
compassion. Then every moment counts
when when things are are difficult, when
it's the unpleasant va. Okay, I learn
patience and courage and compassion.
when it's a pleasant vna, I learn
gratitude
>> and uh and and and joy and delight. So,
every moment counts. Uh and that's what
I think the curriculum here is for
humans on the planet earth. 10,000 joys
and 10,000 sorrows. And they both make
us fully human. So then you're
processing that but not getting stuck
there. That's the thing. You don't want
to get stuck there and you need to
remind yourself all that's good uh from
time to time or as much as can bring you
balance and a big enough container to uh
to hold and not be overwhelmed by all
the sorrow.
I'm I'm struck the first two items on
the list intention and mindfulness uh
compose one of this triad that the
Buddha motions to in Majimmini 117 of
right view right intention and right
mindfulness which circle around every
path factor and make it transcendent so
you're talking about those as the
creation of the crucible that suffering
can sit in and be joy held and
>> you know often I I reference as a metric
for people's practice flourishing
normaly and warmth and I just see in you
this kind of you see it kind of coming
through you and James one kind of
follow-up question to the previous one
for me would be um you know I you may
have some skillful means for people to
cultivate that gratitude that fourth uh
right effort of you know amplifying uh
wholesome states in daily life like a
gratitude journal or something but in
meditation
um how do you how do you tap into that
joy if someone's been th following the
breath and it's dry or trying to use the
metaphrase but it just stopped working
two weeks ago. What instruction do you
give a meditator for finding pity pamoja
and suka?
Uh well first kind of what I was
pointing to before you can't force it.
Uh if you
people say I'm trying so hard to be
joyful it just doesn't work.
So you start with as Pematan wrote, you
start where you are
and you just
um hold whatever is here.
If it's dry,
you hold the dryness with um with
interest, investigation. That's for me a
a key
um you know this second factor of of of
enlightenment investigation where you're
just curious.
You're curious about
boredom
or dryness
or sorrow or so
you you can't
you know if there was a way I could
magically turn the switch on for
somebody I I would. But that's where it
comes back to intention. Okay. the
intention that whatever is here I'm
going to use to wake up. And that means
being interested enough to meet this
moment
with grace,
with um courage, with patience and with
curiosity.
Just for me having um having a sense of
wonder that has always been
one of my it's my bent that uh you know
that it's the same one that loves
you know loved astronomy when I was a
kid and saying wow or
loves dancing or uh or music I should
say and singing and uh that just that
thinking now Jesus saying unless you
become like children you will not know
the kingdom of heaven
that really rings true for me so there's
a curiosity about whatever it is
not trying to
uh force anything
but in that
in that letting go of agenda
from even if it's a curiosity around a
contracted state
if I can meet it with tenderness
and with compassion. I'm big on
self-compassion and with interest in the
moment that you're saying, "Okay, let me
see you."
You're counteracting the aversion that
says, "I don't want this."
And in that curiosity and that that
tender relationship
right there, you're you're relaxing the
grip, the contraction.
And as you start to notice
the softening,
that's all you need to do. Not you can't
be greedy about it. Oh. Oh, good. Now
I'm getting Uh-uh. No.
just pay attention and noticing, oh,
it's oh, it's it's much better to pay
attention here and to see what's going
on and to to meet it with friendliness,
you know. And sometimes people get
impatient and say, you know, I'm feeling
so lousy. I I want to just open my heart
and love the world. And, you know, I
say, don't go for a gusher.
Just just go for the slightest softening
and relaxing of that
aversion.
And then pay attention to how good that
feels to not be caught in aversion and
to just
um enjoy it and and to be right where
you are. And in that if you can be right
where you are with with kindness and
patience and interest
everything changes. We know that. Uh and
then you just um
surrender or trust that the awareness
can meet this moment wisely.
>> And then when you do start feeling, oh,
I'm feeling better now,
don't miss it.
James, you mentioned uh curiosity and a
lot of people who are moving into
Buddhism certainly in America are
they're not yet Buddhists. They're just
budo curious and it's just one curiosity
among many. you know they will a lot
there is a high overlap in the vin
diagram of uh American Buddhist
interests in activism as well and you
have that aspect of yourself as well
work with the one earth sa and it's
interesting when when people are kind of
balancing their heads trying to work out
these different realms of their
seemingly outward focused interests and
their internal focused interests there's
a particular outside voice which can be
internalized ized, which actually argues
one out of going to a meditation
retreat. You've got a great name for
that, which I think you call the kumbaya
factor. Could could you speak about the
kumbaya factor and how to kind of
overcome that that roadblock to
potentially entering into a a retreat
and taking the time to, you know, have
this more internal sense of solid joy?
>> Yeah. you know, um
it's not
that one way is better than the other.
They're in my mind, they're both vital
because it's so easy to get spun out
with the stimuli
and just keeping up with with life, let
alone the news. um that we need to take
a break from the
is that there was that place stop the
world I want to get off um and to to
take a break and just go inside and
reconnect instead of all out there to
reconnect with what's in here so that
you
um feel fully alive,
but not to stop there, you know, unless
well, even even the Buddha set up, you
can't go off by yourself and say, "Okay,
goodbye world. You've got a begging bowl
to to have to put out every day."
Because he said, "No, you this this
being out in the world is is is a an
essential piece in this. So you go
inside
you know if for some it might be going
inside for a long time to go very deep
and I've been fortunate enough to have a
number of periods that were transforming
for me but
if it's only that that's half half the
story and I
if if you put in
later on uh for me I read most every
retreat at the end of the retreat I read
um an excerpt from Bikubod's essay a
challenge to Buddhists
>> where he says if you think this is a
private journey uh just for those
fortunate enough to uh to meditate
you're missing the Buddha's message uh
and and it's it's only half of the the
um uh of the
the task but it's to
care for all the suffering in the world.
You are connected to it all. So you
don't want to be just going inside
and you don't want to just be going out
outside. Uh there's that balance that
that really nourishes the inner world.
So you come from a much more balanced
place and a much more centered place and
a much more effective place uh in your
engagement. And for me engagement is a
is a very key key piece of this all. I
can share you again another story that
that might uh might be useful for
people. when um when I first got into
um understanding about the climate
crisis emergency now and then it was
just a crisis and it was like whoa I
read uh Bill McKibben's book earth
with two A's because it's kind of like
the uh uh the faximile of how earth has
been where we're headed Right. It's and
I read that book and it really shook me
uh and just saying, "Whoa, I've been,
you know, teaching about joy and like I
knew that it was bad, but that it, you
know, sometimes you read something and
it just hits in a whole other level
where it's not just here, it's here all
all through me." And um and I was
fortunate enough to connect with this
friend uh Lou Leonard, one of the
co-founders of One Earth SA at that time
before One Earth SA existed and he was
the climate manager for World Wildlife
Fund and also a very dedicated
practitioner and he was at Spirit Rock.
Uh, and and I
I got him. We were in the council house
together, just the two of us, and I
said, "Lou,
whoops, I get it." Uh, well, is that
that's the dharma saying, "Okay."
Um,
uh, I said, "I get it. Uh, we're really
in trouble
>> and
I don't know what to do here. All I've
been doing is sharing the dharma and
teaching awakening joy.
Tell me what I I can do that will really
make a difference.
And he said,
"James,
joy might be one of the most important
things we need to remember."
So you go on teaching about joy.
And I said, "Whoa,
okay, I can do that."
And that's been my co-an for these last
15,
17, however many years. Oh, okay. I want
to teach about or share about all the
good in life. And this is about showing
up in this time of need. I just uh
I visited Joanna Macy in March. She
passed away in July and I asked for her
blessing on um this program. Spirit Rock
has been given a grant to uh create a
climate program, a robust climate
program for three years. We're in the
first year of it now. And it might go
for 10 years if we do it right these
first three years. Um and I visited
Joanna Macy and I said, "Could you give
a blessing on on this program?"
and uh I have it on on I've recorded on
my phone. It's one of the most precious
things. There two and a half mill
minutes of brilliance. And she said,
"I'm you're talking about being alive.
>> I'm I'm so glad
I can when she say click my heels and
toss my hat." Thought of you're talking
about being alive right now. I'm so glad
to be alive right now. It's so wonderful
that here we are
to listen to the earth and to know this
is a time for us to link arms
together
and do something fantastic
in a time of great need.
She says it a whole lot more eloquently
than I can. And that's the transmission
to not come from gloom and doom,
although to know that that that's an
understandable response, but to
come from love and come from care and
come from joy. You protect what you
love. So,
it's important to remember why you love
life and why
what happens out there affects me and
what I do here affects everything out
there. And the more one
links arms together with others
to do something fantastic that is just
doing what you can do from a place of
joy. It's not up to you to fix the
world, but to just come from your own
love of life. That is magnetizing. Then
people say, "Hey, I want to join your
party."
It it's it's a whole lot different than,
you know, we are
we're doomed. We're we're in trouble. I
got to watch my myself here. Uh and um
and uh you got to let go of the
conclusions. Let go of all conclusions
and know that my motto for quite some
time now is impermanence rules.
>> You know, so whatever is happening now,
this is not the end. And the pendulum
swings from insanity to awakening and uh
so I want to be part of that.
>> Yeah. No, appreciate that. And it it's
interesting to read your biography, read
your book. Uh one other concept you have
um in Awakening Joy is the bottom
compartment talking about that nasty
bottom compartment of the refrigerator
which you know things get lost in there
and then they just start decaying and
decomposing. and um you know two aspects
of your life you know in addition to
having this uh inclination to link hands
with others you were a big part of the
creation of spirit rock which is one of
not necessarily delinking but at least
temporarily okay just sitting and taking
time away and it's interesting you know
we've all got our bottom uh compartment
and you know I think the it's the
minority of Americans who meditate or
who take 10 days or 7 days or even 3
days out of their year to actually sit
for a period of time. And um I'm curious
if you could talk about that that side
of things like the the bottom
compartment where someone might be
everything else all the other shelves of
the refrigerator are doing great things.
There's a lot of freshness and you know
providing nourishment to the world. Uh
but also the kind of innermost um yeah
things are things are putrifying down on
that bottom shelf and um yeah curious if
you could also speak about the value of
stepping back giving people that
permission um the weaker of the world.
>> Yeah. And and uh I I I
uh want to give credit to Anam Tuptton
uh Anam Tuptton uh a a dear friend who I
teach with and who came to the joy class
and I asked him to to talk about CILA
about living with integrity and that and
he came up with that uh that image. I
said I'm going to use that in the book.
Um yeah, you know, we all have
until you're fully enlightened,
there's stuff to work through
and
shining a light of awareness
is the best way.
That's what purification is about. You
know, it's either putrification or
purification. Mhm.
>> So, uh I go for the purification which
takes some courage to say, "Okay, let's
look at all this stuff in here. There's
this.
There's all of these things that I did
when I didn't know better. Oh my god,
you know, I can't believe I did that."
That's that's part of the process to
to look at it all and to forgive
yourself
for
not knowing any better
>> and to and to make that commitment once
you do know better.
You know, the Buddha says it's one of my
favorite sutas. You've covered it
already in your Majima. I recommend to
everybody
do the mission majima the 10-minute ma
majima number 61
uh where he says it's never too late. So
if you've if you've done something that
you regret and just see you know wise
remorse just see
how what you've done. Acknowledge the
pain.
Don't keep beating yourself up. I know
that one. He does. I'm paraphrasing him
now. You know, I'm I'm something of an
expert on guilt. You know, I come from a
lineage of guilt. Um,
don't beat yourself up, but see, oh,
what can I learn from this? And
I'm reborn in some way, you know, like
Anguli Mala was reborn. Okay. From here
on in,
I've learned as as one of my teachers
says, um,
as long as you're learning, there are no
mistakes.
And when I look back and I cringe and I
say, "Oh, I can't believe I did that."
Cringing is a good sign. It means you're
no longer that person.
>> Yeah.
>> Sorry. Yeah. Go ahead.
One one thing I wanted to um yeah is
it's been a while since we've had fridge
refrigerators with lower shelves, but I
I do recall the the aniche of avocados.
um with one question I wanted to ask
James is we'd before we started the the
conversation here we were talking a bit
about the creation of clear mountain and
then you're kind of navigating the
creation of Spirit Rock and just this
sense of I think the way you put it was
it was clear we weren't writing the
script
>> speaking of yourself and how um you know
my my father says this project is
impossible and inevitable at the same
time like there's
that that really feels quite profound in
that and one aspect of this brightness
that holds the heart. Um uh I find
that's not spoken about in the west at
all is the realm you know of uh davas
and the supernatural and these deep
karmic currents which I know the first
generation of dharma teachers was quite
hesitant to teach to or to speak to and
perhaps some including yourself I don't
know you know what where your belief
lies in those things but
>> if I could what is your relationship to
those hidden brighter elements which um
the Buddhist spoke about um and whether
do you believe them you know literally
or h if you do
>> you have any stories for us James
>> recollection of Davis is one of the
paths to pomoia our well-being so
>> well um yeah and first I just want to um
acknowledge you you you just um
discovered this piece of land or or uh
are now committed to building a
monastery on this piece of land uh not
that far from Seattle. Uh and that's so
exciting. And so I I have some some real
muda for you. Um, and going back to when
we were first looking for land at Spirit
Rock, um,
in in that same way as you're pointing
out before I get to the Davis, um, it w
it wasn't like, oh, can we really do
this? It this is honestly my internal
experience. It was,
of course, this is going to happen. M
>> uh that might have been it wasn't hubris
because it clearly it wasn't us. It it
was just I mean retreats they we would
be renting places and they'd fill up you
know and have waiting lists and all and
it was inevitable. Uh it didn't seem
impossible. It just seemed like, okay,
we just show up and do our part and the
dharma
I I did have this belief the dharma
wants to do this.
>> Mhm. Now whether you know I I don't know
if I could say the Davis but I do
believe in something
much bigger than us
>> and
to
to trust that
there
I've had some uh have had some um
discussions with Joseph Goldstein about
this. I believe
uh there is a benevolence to the
universe.
Albert Einstein said uh the perhaps the
most important question a human being
can ask is it the is the universe
friendly or not?
I choose to believe that it's friendly
because underneath all the the sorrow
and joy there's peace. Um so I
feel that there's a force of goodness
that wants to express itself.
Um, and that we just really need to be
aligned with that goodness, that good
energy, be a channel for it, and um, and
let ourselves be used well. And when
when we at one point in Spirit Rock, it
it changed from, you know, oh gosh, can
we do all of this to, oh, we are
midwives to a process.
And that
that just changed everything. Oh, of
course. We just cut keep on doing our
part and um and trust and it it's always
worked out. Always that I've seen. I
mean if you take a a small and if you
take a small sample a slice of life it
doesn't work out. But in the bigger
picture,
if I'm facing towards the direction of
goodness and love and clarity,
I think I'm doing okay. That's all I
need to do. That's my job. And just
trust that life is supporting me in
that. That's what I try to communicate
with others.
>> Well, James, thank you so much. We're
getting close to the hour mark. The time
has really flown by. Um, you talk about
another I'm really moved by some of the
concepts you bring up in your books. One
of them is the elevation response. And I
think just being around you is kind of
elevating and I can understand why
people would take the um awakening joy
course. I think it opens up in a couple
weeks. People can still join that.
>> Yes. Yes. I love I love sharing that. So
I welcome everyone to join. Yeah. No one
kept away because of finances but uh so
check it out.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Thank you for that. And yeah, just
one final concept um at least for me is
just that of abundant enoughness, which
>> um yeah, is one which I think
>> I I feel like the project of uh Spirit
Rock, the way it was started and how
we're hoping to start Clear Mountain,
you know, you know, it it does seem as
Ajanisa's dad says, um inevitable um
impossible and inevitable. Uh, but you
know, it seems like it'll happen and
once we get it, you know, there's not
really much there. So, we're just gonna
have to be forced into our uh
enoughness, but I think it'll feel very
abundant. So, yeah,
>> blessings on on that project. It's it's
really exciting and I hope to come up
and and visit sometime. That would mean
a lot, James, and for what you've given
the Dharmic landscape in North America
and kind of bringing this aspect of joy
that's so missing. Um, and not an a joy
that
ignores the difficulties, but you
really, you know, having spoken to this
race between consciousness and fear. And
when you say, "Let's do something
marvelous," I I believe it. Um, so yeah,
please come and visit us soon.
>> Go team. Yeah.
And for those who want, actually James
is going to stick with us for Zoom. So I
just pasted the link into the chat for
those who want to join for a more
intimate uh 45 minutes or so. And we'll
just uh get to do that. And we'll see
you over there, James. And please come
visit us soon. And thank you so much for
joining us.
>> Thanks so much for having me.