The Rocky Horror Picture Show with Joan Haley Ford

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Speaker 1: On the beck Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have wenen inum? Are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands? Do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the beck del Cast. Hello listeners, you're about to hear an episode that we recorded live at the Ruby in Los Angeles on the movie Rocky Horror Picture Show. And speaking of episodes recorded live at the Ruby in Los Angeles, we are doing another one on November nine pm and we're covering Home Alone. And this is a show you don't want to miss because it's our last show at that location because the Ruby is moving to a different spot in l A. But that location has been our home for live l A shows for over a year, so it's very special to us and we want you to come hang out with us there one last time. Tickets and details are at Bechtel cast dot com. Click on the live tab and we'll see you there. Enjoy the episode. Hello, thank you for coming to the life Stow. This is the Bechtel Cast. Welcome, Welcome, you recome to see I see some T shirts in the crowd. I wait, I need to get I have too many you all use situate. I'll talk. Hello, Um, I'm dressed as Brad Brad Majors from tonight's film. I'm dresses I don't know. I was like, it's Halloween where black, and then I didn't have time to go to CVS to get fishnets. But if I had, you would have been like, oh, I get it right. So just imagine I would run that errand I was supposed to run. Yeah, I mean you've got lipstick on. I think that's great. That's more effort than I would normally demonstrate at this event. Uh so, yeah, but I love you, Bradfit. It's incredible. Thank you. The jacket the Bradfit. The jacket isn't quite right, and I apologize for that, but don't apologize. That's right. Women apologize too much. And yeah, we're putting it. I've been saying it for years. Women need to stop apologizing for their Brad cosplay. They really do. You're doing great. Thank you anyway. My name is Caitlin Dronte, my name is Jamie Loftus, and we thank you. We are the Bechtel Cast. We talk about the representation of women in film and how it's usually pretty abysmal. We use the Bechtel test as a jumping off point, and that is a media metric also sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, that requires that two female identifying characters with names talk to each other about something other than a man. Does it normally have an in movie three to one? No, we've got a doozy tonight. You know, there's a real like shaky hand. Hard to say because I think the things that I mean. And spoiler alert too if anyone is a new listener on this episode. Uh, this show has very little to do with the actual Bechdel test, but in terms of determining it for this movie, it's very hard because there's molt there's I think three or four layers into determining, and then there's also like a consent question that has nothing to do with gender that you're just like there watching, So it's unclear. This is a wild one where we're very excited and we've been getting this request forever. Um and tonight's tonight. Tonight's the night on it by round of applause. Who has seen the movie Rocky Horror Picture Show? Wow, I think it's done your homework alright, looking carefully, Uh, this is anyone not seen it. Clap clap, Yes, Okay, we are not going to do what Rocky Horror does, which is humiliate you if you've never seen the movie. It's fine. Not everyone can see every movie. Isn't that a fun community aspect where if you haven't done what everyone else has done, you're absolutely humiliated, Uh, in front of strangers. I think that's a very chill entry point to a community. Definitely, that's great, and I think it's brave of you to to show up to an event about a movie you have not seen. Yes, good enough, Yes, we love that. Okay. So we are talking about Rocky Horror Picture Show tonight and we have a guest with us, returning guest to the show. We love her. Yes, you might remember her from our Scream episode. She is a comedian and a writer for Nurdist and ThunderCats Roar on Cartoon Network. It's Joan Ford. Hi. I've always wanted to be a Halloween tradition and now I am one. Yes, Yes, welcome back, Thanks for having me. So. I mean, since we're commenting unfits an incredible seemed Halloween fit, I feel like, yeah, I decided, I'm like, I'm I'm backstage decided, I'm like Halloween, Janet. I feel like this is what Janet. She wouldn't get a full costume, but she'd wear like a cute dress with like skeletons on it. Like, yeah, I know native, I'm getting the spirit of it. So, John, what's your history relationship with this iconic film? Okay? I was growing up, like I was like in my like early like ten eleven years, um, you know, the early, the early, the tens and eleven, whatever you call it. That was the early ones when like I think it was, this was just hitting its twentieth anniversary. I remember like Fox was like playing it. It was like Fox is making like a big deal of like after Herman's Head, It's time for where the first network broadcast of of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, And like I did not know what this thing was. I had kind of heard inklings of it like as a as a like cult movie, but I didn't really know what it was. And I remember seeing it for the first time like on that broadcast and being kind of like transfixed by it but not quite knowing why. Like I remember going back to my like Catholic grade school the next day and telling everyone about like and there's this he's like a transvestite. And I didn't know quite what I was saying, but it got me in trouble um. But yeah, I was just like this is so I was like, I was like, this is very cool. Like I thought this I had discovered a cool thing, which I had, but not many people everyone agreed, but I was like, this is cool, Like he's a transdestite. It's a cool thing, right, And everyone's like and uh and yes, that was like my first memory of it. And then it kind of like it's a thing that I mean, you know, I was a closeted, queer, white theater kid in suburban America, so it kept creeping up in my life. I remember once like I got home from like a thing and my dad was like, hey, like I taped Rocky Horror Picture Show for you off of Comedy Central, and like by that time, I like internalized that it wasn't something I was supposed to like. So I was like, I don't like that thing. I don't want to watch that thing. Why did you take that for me? And I think that's when my dad like stopped being like, well, no longer am I going to like try to involve myself in their queer identity. That's it. I'm giving up. I turned them off to it and strike and it was one strike yes, um, and then yeah and then I I went to the shadow cast in like high school, and then in college and again when I moved out here. So it's just a thing that's been like ever a present thing in my life, like from a very early age. The tens in the eleven Yes, the tens and elevens. Yes, a bottle of them, Jamie, how about you. I got into Rocky Horror. I think around high school. I know the first time I went. I was like it was my freshman year in high school. My mom was very into Rocky Horror. Um the there everyone's laughing because maybe some people have already seen the pick. But she tweeted at the betel Cast account of her, at age seventeen, wearing really not many clothes. That was her. That was my mom. I thought that was you maybe No, no, no, I there the pictures of me are far less cool than the ones that were tweeted. I'm wearing far more clothes. No, they're my mom like in because you know, I grew up in like a suburban area as well, where queer community was kind of scant to be found. And my my mom when she was younger, like loved going. She went every single month. She was a stand She was there, she knew it all, she loved wearing Leo tarts in public. She just was there. So she was like really encouraging me to go. When I was a young teen and I went, I went with my cousin. I think we went maybe like once a year when I was in high school to the West Bridgewater showing. I mean, if all my Westbridgewater heads listening to this, it's a very small theater, but a lot of enthusiasm. And then I think I went like once or twice more in college and then when I lived here. But I've I've been like I didn't want to say, like five or six times. Okay, very good. What about you, Caitlin. I've never been to a live screening. I've seen this movie probably only a handful of times. I saw it for the first time in college when I was getting one of two film degrees that I would eventually have. But I I like, I thought it was like cool and campy and subversive. But you you may know this about me. I'm not a huge fan of musicals, although this is one that I tolerate quite a bit more than than others. But for me, it comes down to story and the story of the because again, I do have a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University that I simply hate to mention. It's not what one would call yeah, not a not a classic three act structure. I think that there's because all three of us have watched it multiple times in preparation for this, and between the three of us we really tried to place together like, oh, I think that they maybe thought they were foreshadowing there, yeah, yeah, like when do we find out these characters are aliens? Um. This was the first time I watched in and completely realized Brad and Janet have absolutely no bearing on the actual like plot of the film. They could be a raised from the story and the film every the film would end the exact same way it ended. Yes, if they had never arrived, they had never arrived them even like them arriving as an inciting incident. If we're talking your degree and thank you so much, makes it doesn't incite. It used to incite what was going to happen anyway, Yes, yes, it incites nothing like the party was going to happen, the brutal murder of famous rock star meat Load was going to happen. And they're not even in that they are audience circuits in the most literal way, and that they are just audience members who I get to have sex with the with the main character at one point. Yes, that's the best audience circuits. I like to think that Brad and Janet inspire riff Raff and Magenta to rise up against their bourgeois oppressor and take over. Right the end, well, here's Mike. But I was getting a lot of like Cerce and Jamie Lanister energy from them because they keeping like, we're siblings, but we're kissing and you're like, let's not go here, like but then at the end they're like, no, we are still siblings who are fucking. But the twist is we're alien siblings who are fucking. You're like, all right, I guess that's a twist. I don't know who you get who you was right? Well with that? Should we get into the story that the words story and plot loosely for this movie, but here it is the three of us will we'll do our fare at Truly, if anyone in the crowd has exposition some little seedling that was planted that we totally missed, let us know. It's very possible. Maybe we're bad viewers. Yeah, you guys, educate us. We're blaming ourselves. I know we just talked about it. But I apologize for what I what's about to happen. I'm already sorry for it. I think this is gonna go great. Okay, okay, okay, thank you, Brat, you're welcome. So Janet which is Susan Surrandon's character, and Brad played by Barry Boss. He was on Spin City Brave. I've never seen it, but he say break camp. Yes. They are at their friend's wedding and the two of them get engaged after the wedding. It's unclear whether they want to get engaged. They definitely think they should get engaged right right, and then they sing a song about being engaged or the best songs in it. I mean, damnit, Janet, good stuff. This is when it's revealed that Susan Sarandon has a serviceable high school soprano. Bad they're not helping her, like it's just not her it's clear that she's an alto. Then we cut to a scene where they are driving in the dark and stormy night to visit their friend Dr. Everett Scott, as as we all do right after we get engaged. The first thing, the first people you tell after you get engage, you're a high school science teacher, not your parents. That's a fun thing to imagine, like, oh, what if I just went to Mr grinds Head. And they're traveling on what turns out to be a dead end road, and then they get a flat tire, so they get out of the car and walk to this castle that they had passed a few miles back, and the light is on in the castle, so they figure they can go in and use their phone to call for help, and then a spooky looking person answers the door. The writer of the movie Riff, rafted by Richard O'Brien. Richard O'Brien, who comes back time and time again, is a person who wants to be taken very seriously as an actor, but he created Rocky Horror Picture Show and he plays riff Raff and he answers the door and Janet Brad here's some commotion and Riff Raff tells them about a social event that the Master is hosting que the iconic time warp song which Joan mentioned last night everyone from their youth, yes, yes, oh yes, I mean my sense memory of that scene is that there's literally like a hundred people at dance hall and we watched last night and when there's like maybe twelve, I was like, why memorial asked, memories are so fall Memories are memories are lies? There's twelve l a casting people like stumbling their way into they've all kind of learned the dances. They clearly like, yeah, they had a day for rehearsal. Yeah, they have closed shots on like the three or four who learned it, and then the rest there you just have fun, do something and does move to the music. It later becomes clear that there were days that they could have award for those same extras to come back, and days where they clearly couldn't afford not to jumphead but the floor show, like there's no audience for the floor show, and it's like you've written like people who have the whole job in the movie is just to watch what's going on, and they're not there for the like big finale show. It wasn't in the budget, but the song does slap and that's what's good lap. And yeah, so there's all these like suddenly there's a bunch of like cookie people and they're all singing and dancing, and among them are Magenta and Colombia. Uh. And then Janet is like, let's get out of here. It's weird and scary, and just then Dr Frankenforter shows up Tim Curry and the role of a lifetime. Yes, I want to take I want to take elocution lessons from him from this movie, like just pronounce everywhere the way he does. So I did some Tim Curry diving on this one. And Terry Gross I mean an icon and her own right, Uh, Terry, Like she asked him, like, you know, how did you develop this party? He's like, well, I was trying to figure out, like I guess that, like Frankenfurter was American accented for a while, Cockney accented for a while. And then Tim Curry was like, but what if Frankenfurter sounded like the Queen? And that was that was why why the credre sounds that way? And it's terrific. It's a great choice, and Frank Confurter sings a song about uh and I feel weird using these words, but being a sweet transvestite from trans sexual Transylvania. And that song also slaps. Yes, it absolutely dies and the performances incredible. Oh yes, And then Janet and Brad are invited upstairs and there was the castle has an la vater. Yes, the castle has an elevator. They're wet, clothes are removed, so now they're just in their underwear for a little while. And Dr Frankenfurter, who is Jenna ever get her clothes back? I think they get robes. They get very silky, definitely gets her clothes back less so than Brad. She's in her underwear for I would say the majority of the yes is correct. But Frankenfurter is a mad scientist and he unveils his latest creation, which is a person named Rocky Horror. Get it and Rockies bandages are removed, and then he sings a song. I mean like they're just song after so many songs, I would say that Rocky Horror, the actor playing Rocky Horror tries to sing a song in this they hired a model. Yes, it's a lot of like screen singing. Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of high school energy. Dr Frankenfurter is very pleased with how Rocky turned out because he's very muscular and very diplomatic way to put that. Yet, well, he seems to have created Rocky mostly so that he can have sex with Rocky. Yes, and then Eddie meat Loaf shows up, and then we're like, hold on meat Loaf, and then we pause and we're like pre Bad out of Hell or a post Bad out of Hell, pre pre he's not famous yet this one because I was just trying to figure out, well, we were all trying to figure out where's the majority of this budget coming from. Yes, and it seems like it was post Bad out of Hell. A lot of it will be going towards meat Low, but it's pre so we just don't know. Yeah, if anyone knows, like what you had to pay for it from meat Loaf cameo in n let us know. I don't think it was super high. I was like Tim Curry, Susan Surrandon and meat Loaf, we're all like pre being very famous in this movie. So we just corners were cut unclear wild the budget was only a little over a million dollars, right, right, So I mean it's a billion dollars. I don't know, I'm just like a million dollar. Frank Confreter's makeup alone cost five hundred thousand dollars big, probably big, like Sequin budget too. Okay. So then Eddie is there. He's a biker. He's a biker, He's got a big gash on his head. He sings a song. He's Mr. Lobotomy. It took me forever to figure out what was happening there, but he loves rock and roll. He sings a song about it, and then seemingly out of nowhere, Frank Confreter chops him with an axe and kills him. And we're like, oh, surely this will come back, and and for a long time it doesn't. And then Frank Conferter goes off to have sex with his creation, Rocky, And meanwhile, Brad and Janet are shown to separate rooms to sleep him. And then someone who Janet thinks is Brad comes in and starts kissing her, but it's actually Frankenfurter, in a scene that we will talk about, don't you worry. And then Frankenfurter does the same thing to Brad in another scene when we will also talk about and then meanwhile Rocky has gotten loose from his chains because well because in that Rocky is a prisoner of Frankenfurter. But then the reason that he is I still haven't made heads retails with this is because he's taunted by a candelabra, yes, being held by riff Raff, and Riff is like, hey, candle labra and Rockie's like, no, candle labra, and then he is scay. I was like, that is what breaks him? Well, yeah, he's being killed prisoner gothic lighting. No thank you. He's like, I'm out of here, and he shimmies down the fire pole. It was like, why was why was riff Raff taunting him with that candelabra. I simply don't know. I don't know. Well, everyone pour into our d m is telling us why we're so dumb. Realizing the candelabra taunt. Rocky does not get very far and then Janet finds him and she is extremely horny now, so she sings a song about how she wants him to have sex with her, and then they have sex, and I'm gonna say I that's my most that that song slaps, that's my favorite song. Yes, and we get to see the ever so rare female orgasm on screen. Oh, is that what happens? Caitlyn will unpack this at a letter. I think it's implied that that's what happened at the end, and then the red silk sheet is pulled over her, like don't look at it, you know. It's like, oh, that's why we're here. Okay, good to know. Yeah. Then Dr Everett Scott shows up and Frankenfurter considers Doctor's got to be a rival mad signed like a rival scientist, classic, right, Yeah, And Frankenfurter thinks that Dr Scott sent Brad to the castle to spy on Frankenfurter, but the reason he actually come was to find his nephew Eddie, who saw nephew and now he's dead. It's ti together very naturally. We're like, this is not German scientist never love ah. Yes, And then Frankenfurter and Brad discovered Janet and Rocky post coitus and I guess po orgasm and they're not happy about. But then they all have dinner together and during the tense dinner, it's tense during dinner, we find out that Frankenfurter and company are aliens. Over an hour into the movie. By the way, everyone who lives in this castle is an alien. Also the castles of Spaceship Yeah. And then Dr Scott finds out that his nephew Eddie was killed and like the reason that Eddie had a gash on his head. We find out eventually that Frankenfurter removed part of Eddie's brain to put into Rocky's head. So now we understand meat Love's head scar clue shadow foreshadowing for a payoff that never comes, or it's like, oh, okay, so his brain was cut in half. Does that have bury on future events? It's just stated and you're like, oh, that sucks for meat Love. Oh he's dead, I guess yeah, And and they ate him, so he has bigger fish to fry in this situation. Really, it's so confusing. And then Frank Confurter turns Brad Janet, Doctor Scott, Columbia, and Rocky into stone statues because he's had enough of them. I guess, I'm not, I don't know. And then he puts on a show featuring the statues, which then turned back into the people, and then riff Raff and Magenta show up and they're like, hey, Frankenfurter, we're going back home to our home planet. They're in space outfits now, yes, yeah, and they're going back to their home planet in the Transylvania Galaxy. And then Frankenfurter sings a song about how happy he is to be going home, but riff Raff is like, you misunderstood. It's only me and Magenta who are going back, and then he shoots Cerci and Jamie and they're like, no one is any thing. We're gonna kill everyone who isn't directly related to us. Because then frankin Fur gets shot with a laser gun and Rocky tries to save him, but they both die. And then riff Half is like, hey, Brad and Janet and Dr Scott, you should get out of here now because we're about to leave on our castle spaceship. And then they leave and the castle blasts off into space and that's everyone's like the weird night. Also the story that like, there are cuts to the narrator who is like, uh something, he's I don't know who he is. The narrator I believe in the is like build is like the criminologist or something. So yeah, this is like a it was the first true crime podcast. It was like it was just recount. He was recounting the story this true crime that happened. So that's the story of Rocky Horror Picture Show. Yeah, that's so fun. I feel like even the biggest fans of this movie would struggle to explain the plot. I think they're like, the first half hour is amazing, and then by then, hopefully you're drunk. So there's a lot to unpack here. Yes, let's let's get into it. Where shall we start? Gosh, well do we want to start? I suppose was like the cultural impact this movie has had. Yeah, I mean there, I've done a lot of a lot of research outside because I mean, there's a lot to talk about about what happens in plot, but the main legacy of this movie is the subculture that has popped up around it. And so I did a fairer amount of research because I've gone to see Rocky Horror Picture Show in theaters and number of times, but never I was yeah, of a like so young when I started seeing it that I didn't really question the culture around it, and then continue to not do. So, Yeah, it's like I probably the last time I went to a a stage show or a shadow cast of it was maybe like eight or nine years ago, and um, yeah, I guess I didn't. I didn't know back then the shouting slut a hundred times at the screen, which was bad, right, So so that is like the main thing that people take issue with. So if you're not familiar with the culture that surrounds live screenings at the Rocky Hard Picture Show, there's a very well documented and kind of like unchanging sequence of things that people yell at the screen, props that they bring, There's like stuff that like there's forks thrown at one point, there's water that's sprayed, and it's like a very ritualistic thing. And some of the rituals are very like cookie and fun, and other of the rituals have not aged very well, such as any time that and Its character is on screen, you're supposed to scream slut at the screen, even though she has sex no more than anyone else in the movie, like Brad. She and Brad stray about from each other from each other and about equal announce like, and yet he is not referred to as a slot never Yeah, and and so there is some interesting, I think conversation that I will just admittedly just scratch the surface here on the conversation around this culture because it is like an interesting, complicated legacy for a movie that I mean, certainly in my area, and I think a lot of areas in America in particular are an entry way into queer culture and a very clear place to go that if you are if you want to be involved, like it's a good place to start. Yeah, it's it's just kind of a like it's it's a very like almost like Mickey Mouse version of like of like queer culture, which is appropriate. Disney owns it now, Um right yeah yeah, yeah, um think about that. Um but um, Columbia Ware is making Mouse years halfway through it, so like so they are they knew what's gonna happen four years later? Um, but yeah, it is like I mean the fact, like I think back on like that story told the fact that my dad was like, you know, hey, like I recorded this off TV for you tells me that you know, it is like and I knew he knew what it was, but it's just like it's just this very like safe like it's still like challenges you and is inviting you into a kind of like new, weird, fun world, but it's like this it's kind of like it's the safety version of that. Right. It seems to be a lot of people like step one into like like I have questions about my sexuality or this is just something that is this is a community that is cool and interesting to me and like let's explore it. It's a lot of people step one because it's accessible to younger people as well, And so I don't want to neg this community on the whole because there's a lot about it that is absolutely wonderful and like necessary, especially in places where queer communities aren't as accessible. Um, I mean there's a there's a lot of value in like having media like like this movie that's like palatable for you know young well Urban Night it's like, well it's very you know like and will will hollow the word well it's very problematic, let's say. Um, it is a lot of people's like first exposure to queer community, and it was I think one of my first involvement like and just it was like there was literally the g s A at my high school and you could go to Rocky Horror, and that was really all you could do, and so it was like it was important. But that said, there is a lot in the community that has been challenged and questioned over the years that I think is very interesting. The yelling slut at Janet, I think it is the most obvious, but there's also I mean there's like lines I looked through just kind of the stuff I'd forgotten about what people yell at the screen of when Janet says, oh, I was saving myself, and the audience will reply for what a rainy day, Look outside, bitch, it's pouring, Like they're just constantly yelling ship at Janet um And so I I was researching there was some great stuff written about because another component of the Rocky Horror experience is that there's a shadow cast acting out the movie in front of you. So there's like local actors and they often have like a pretty cult following. They become like celebrities within this like small niche community. I mean, I had the biggest crush on whomever was playing Rocky Horror in West Bridgewater in the late two thousands. I was like, I loved them, but it was I was they were like a local celeb, and I was like, I can't approach, you know. And so there is like this untouchable, like kind of cool quality UM. And there's been a lot written and and interviewed about people like this. So I I first wanted to share a few quotes from a former director and cast member from the eighties and nineties who was involved in Rocky Horror in the Houston area. UM. His name is Jeff Rowner. This was written a couple of years ago, just kind of reflecting on his experience and the Rocky Horror cast. He's a siss head man, and he sort of wrote a column about UM reflecting on it years later. So a few quotes from there. He says, quote, it's not as fun as it used to be watching Rocky after years of being a media critic has definitely worn the shine off the film and the cold experience that grew up around it isn't really much better. Take screaming slit whenever anyone says Janet's name is arguably the single most basic call line in Rocky Horror history, alongside screaming asshole. When anyone says Brad, it's basically Rocky one on one for divergence, which we'll get to. Uh, so they can get used to the whole talking of the screen thing. I remember when I was a cast director, we got a complaint letter sent to the theater. The main gist was that having hundreds of people screaming slut was kind of funked up, kind of uh I with the righteous indignation only a twenty year old white dude can muster through a fit. How dare they besmirge a traditional part of the experience. How they no appreciation for the culture of the thing? How they know respect for the unique cinematic experience that was rocky Looking back at it now, I sounded like a fucking gamer gator. I sounded like every other aggrieved son of privilege beating his chest because his toys made other people uncomfortable. It's a weirdly conservative mindset for something that was supposed to be about breaking boundaries. A lot of the people I ran with considered offense to be the whole point of the enterprise, which is kind of bizarre for a film whose main tagline is don't dream it, be it. So that was one one perspective on Just like someone who was very deeply involved in the culture and then was questioning his own attitudes towards it. Oh, and then he goes on to say, and then I have a please bear with me, anyone there's this is a very deeply in trance community. So he goes on to say, quote, a friend of mine once said that Rocky was LGBT cosplayed for straight people. And that is definitely a sentiment I understand now. It's less of a boundary breaker and more of a chance for the comfortable to dip their toes in their perception of gay culture. Don't get me wrong, I loved being there. Hell, the first LGBT people I ever met were there, which is not surprising since I got my start back in when Houston was still sporting anti gave vice laws, and there weren't there. There just weren't a lot of places LGBT people could go and be themselves. It feels like an artifact to be appreciated for its historical value more for than its continued cultural relevance. It's basically the South Park of Holt Films, and that what it had to say has long since been said by better voices. So that was one perspective of a former cast member. Um and then there was a writer, Lindsay King Miller, who interviewed a number of current Rocky Horror Picture Show cast members just last year who first shared their own experience that I'd be curious. I mean when when I was going to and we were just talking about this backstage, Like I look back on going to the Rocky Horror Picture Show generally positively, and it's like a fun experience. But even so, there is that culture around the idea of like if you're a quote unquote virgin going to the show, or if it's your first time going, there is a lot of pressure put on you too. I mean, there were accounts in this story which was published by them last year about people in certain areas who were asked to flash the audience because it was their first time going to Rocky Horror. I remember when I went for the first time, they were trying to convince people to kiss on stage if they were virgins, you know, virgins. But also I was fourteen, and I remember telling the person I was like, oh, this is my cousin, and you know, like I was there with my cousin and being fourteen, and and it just wasn't even something I even thought about until I was reading these other accounts of like, oh yeah, I remember having to like, you know, kind of hang on to my cousin and be like, oh, we gotta, you know, look at for each other. And so I just want to share a little bit from Lindsay's story. They didn't interview One of the most quote sorry journalism, okay quote. One of the most visible faces of the movement for a safer Rocky Horror Picture Show is New York City cast member Jackson Tory Bart, aged twenty three, who started attending shadow cast performances at the Rocky Horror as a teenager, and Jackson says, quote, what I found there was a place to explore and express my non binary gender as it began to take shape, and lived truer in my queer identity. And then Jackson later joins the New York City Rocky Horror Picture Show cast and says that quote, upon interacting with the wider community, I was surprised to find leadership dominated by siss gender straight people, most often men. Unquote. They realized quickly that the Rocky Horror subculture was far from immune to the homophobia and transphobia from which it was supposed to be a refuge. Jackson says, quote, I will never forget being told that my gender was fake and invalid by a middle aged sciss man and of course at heels and garters unquote. Lindsay also interviews another cast member named Cassia, who is a member of the r k O Army cast alongside Jackson in New York. Cassia goes on to say, quote, I had people calling me a cunt, saying I was oblit to society, threatening to sue me, threatening to try to get me kicked off my cast, spreading gossip about me unquote when they attended a Rocky Horror convention, and so whenever an allegation would come forward about a Rocky Horror cast member, uh quote, Cassia, already familiar with potential repercussions, was ready to support them and help call out their abusers. Although Jackson and Cassia say they have faced backlash from name calling to threats of legal action for turning a spotlight on predators who use Rocky Horror as a hunting ground, they have also been met with gratitude and support from the community. Quote. Not everyone in the cast is as loud about this as we are Cis Cassia, but everyone cares a lot about this issue and what we are trying to do unquote. So even within the Rocky horror community, there has been of a fair amount of pushback in recent years to be more accepting. And I think that a lot of this comes up in the seventies nous that this move be as routed in in terms of just like seeking consent and considering the age of audience members and and and homophobia and transphobia that just spiral out. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I think that we are the three of us watched it last night, and I think, I mean, we were all pretty taking it because I would say, like this is last night was probably one of the first times I like watched watched the just the movie as a movie and you know, um, and not that I would have been making this call like ten years ago, but seeing the scene where like the two scenes in a row where Frankenfort just kind of like you know, pulls a like Revenge of the Nerds to like be with both of them is like really like gross, Like it's really gross. And I mean, I think you're right, it's that kind of you know, it's it's a. It's there's something like a little bully ish to it, like like everything you're describing like just it's just these like bully undertones and then I don't know that they're I think you're right, and seeing like those things they exist like within the film to an extent. Right, Yeah, it's interesting. I mean it's like I think there's definitely a lot of discussion to be had, and it is such a vast cult following that it's like from region to region. I'm sure that the like the following around it differs, but but it is. It was interesting too. I mean I feel like it is generally painted as like such a friendly and all encompassing, you know, open space and then to hear that of course, like as we've found out so many times that even these spaces that were supposedly designed with openness in mind have this insidious nature to them. Yeah, that's the thing. Well, speaking of the director or the creator, yes, let's talk about creator, Richard O'Brien, Yes, um, yeah, I mean Richard O'Brien was like on record fairly recently, i think, like within the last like two months as saying that he, uh, he does not believe that like he does trans women are not women. This essentially it was the extent of a sentiment that a trans woman will always be like a man in address, like it's it's all what I'm I don't have to write down because it's all like the best the you know, the turkey best of um um. But it's and it's and and and he does say, you know, like I consider myself like a third like the third gender. I think that's a real thing, but like transit trans people are not a real thing. And it's like wow, way to like like gender is just as fluid as you needed to be and goes no further. Yeah, like I and like I don't know, but it's it was like genuinely dishearm. It was genuinely sad, like because not a huge part, but Rocky Horror was definitely a part of my you know, kind of figuring myself, that journey of figuring myself out. And I think, you know, I was watching Laver Cox talk about her because she played frankn Furder in the Two Sons two sixteen version, and she talked about how, you know, she she's known a lot of people who Yeah, Rocky Horror was the start of their journey into you know, to figure out who they were. Uh So, so I don't know, Like I think of it as like it's like fucking like Santa Claus telling you there's no Santa Claus. It's like it's like Santa Claus like shows up and he's like, I'm not real and then he disappears, and you're like, what the fuss what my brains to think about this? Um? But yeah, I don't know. It's it's it's it's confusing because I didn't realize this until very recently when I started doing some research about Richard O'Brien. But I pulled some quotes from a BBC article. Is from this yea from me? And in the article, he uh speaks, well, I don't know pronouns, I don't know, but O'Brien speaks about their gender identity and fluidity, saying, it's my book quote journalism, thank you new bit quote. It's my belief that we are on a tenuum between male and female. There are people who are hardwired male, and there are people who are hardwired female, but most of us are on that continuum. And I believe myself probably to be about se male female O'Brien has also and this is me talking now unquote is what you say, right? Um? Journalism, yes, journalism. O'Brien has also identified Joan, as you said, as being a third sex and has taken estrogen. So we're like, okay, he's he's gender fluid. But and then he's like, but trans women aren't women, And you're like, what, Richard, what? So it's confusing. Yeah, I mean to me, it just you know, it speaks to this like intense inability to look like kind of look outside yourself like all, I like literally all. And I read in the interview. I read that he's still that it's still he still us mail pronounce. That's what I was. So that's where I was going with. But like he's still, um, you know you understand it's like lack of empathy, like he understands what's going on inside of him, and but he can't like extend that to like anybody, which you know, like tracks with just like other things I've learned about him, and like namely like you know, he's just like his distaste for like how like popular his thing has become. The thing is like with Richard O'Brien, outside of his very messy views on gender and identification. In general, he just seems like a pretty bitter person about like I mean and but I'm sorry if there's stands in the audience, but like but but in general, like he does come off as like you're ruining my creation. And he's always like why didn't people appreciate me as riff rap? And you're like, I'm sorry, Yeah, there's a and I would recommend why because I think the production itself is fun On YouTube there is a like two fifteen stage production. It's a lot of fun. Like Stephen Fry is the narrator, but like they like interview Richard O'Brien like halfway through and like it's just clear that he's like disgusted with this, with this and he's people and he's like yeah, it's just his vibe of like why, like these people are ruining my my brilliantly crafted script, and it's like yeah, yeah, or is your sophomore triumph? It was Shock Treatment, that was his fault. That was his sequel to Rocky Horror. It did not make an impact, as that reaction will tell you. I have not I haven't seen it, but but people it seems like people have generally argued that it is a more cohesive piece than Rocky Horror. Yes, I would say it's a more cohesive piece, I would say, and none of the songs slap. Well, then what's the point. Um. So that's a little bit of background I had about the the state of the subculture. Uh, and then too to everyone listening to everyone here the show, and I mean I'm very interested in and we were talking about this in last night of just like what is the current uh state of Rocky Horror fandom? Because it does seem like in some cases it does skew older and where there are more options for many for queer community. Now like where yeah, where does that fandom stand? Because I mean, like we have the new art one which I think is the lot the one of the new art o Santa Manicas. Yeah, let's all go afterwards, let's uh who can get it? Like a fifty person left? Um, it's a um, it's still it's been going for like pretty much for you, like since has been going for almost consistently every Saturday night since since eighty six. I believe they took some time off in the early two thousands to repo the genetic opera. Remember that referencing I have movies everybody remembers. Um. But yeah, they've been doing it for like like thirty five years or something, right, I mean, so it's and it's like really the only movie of its kind that has this kind of following, which which is like a gigantic accomplishment for the piece and for the community around it. But yeah, I just I haven't been in several years myself, and I'm just like, yeah, where does it stand, especially our young younger people still interested in going? Like is this still an entry point for younger people? Because I don't know if a fourteen year old today would be like, oh, here's here's the best option in my area, you know what I mean. Uh, we don't know. We'll find out, we'll get we'll take some questions at the end. Let's talk about the actual female characters in the phone. Okay, um, well, unbelievable that you suggest that. I'm sorry, y'all go home. Let's start with Janet. I suppose, as we already hinted at, she is basically inconsequential to the plot, if you can call it that, but love she does faint once during time war she fainted. She shrieked, and then she faints again when Frank conferred her first appear because say it with me, now women fainting, And there's also when she doesn't faint in something dramatic happens. She then shrieks and rushes into the arms of the most recent person she's had sex with. Yes, so that is another quality, right she She's written as a fairly timid, like, oh Brad, I'm so scared protect me type of female character, but she does have an arc. She doesn't definitely. She starts by saying she doesn't like men with muscles, and then she does yes, and then has sex with a man with muscles who might be a baby. We'll talk about it. Yes, here's what we know. He has muscles. But then she's only like sexually liberated after she gets raped by Frankenfurter, so that we'll get to that. There are a few I mean, and this is in no way defending the two consecutive rape scenes that are played for jokes, but there are a few things I thought that were like planted for Janet, planeted for Janet, damn it uh, and where there are a few moments where Janet is starting to have fun, like at the party and at the time where I think it's during the time where she goes like, oh, this is fun and Brad's like, no, it isn't and she's like okay. But there there are a few times where Janet wants to participate and her fiance, but where her fiance is like, we don't like this, and Janet kind of you calibrates and it's like, okay, okay, I'm not allowed. Does that mean that Brad is basically cal Hockley and that Rocky is Leonardo DiCaprio slash Jack Dawstin's is Titanic? Yes it does. We both have red hair and there's a ship there's either sinks or blast off into space. I'm willing to explore this, yes, but but yeah, like it is hinted at a few times that Janet is more receptive and like, is I mean hornier. She also insists on going with Brad when their car breaks down. He's like stay here, I'll go find help, and she's like, no, I'm coming with you. She pushes against him in very subtle ways, but she does push against what he wants a few times. But at the beginning when he says no, we don't do that, she obeys, and I would also say, like, you know, I don't necessarily want to give like the movie too much at it in this direction, but I mean, I do think we are kind of supposed to be watching parodies of nineteen fifties b movie like cute team Couple, So you know, I don't the reason I don't want to give it too much credit in that direction because I feel like at the end of the day that it doesn't have much to say about them. It just kind of like it presents them and it's like these like I don't know, it does not he to say, but like it's like, I do think we are watching like, you know, archetypes of like characters and not not necessarily like but no fans for Geno Brian maybe not the most like well developed predimensional characters logging in right now like how dare you? Yeah? I was reading some similar an analysis. There was a visa reference later by a queer writer named Ronnie Baker, who did a fair amount of research into the references this movie is making, uh, most of which have not survived the test of time that we would be able to pick up on them. But basically the queer coded sci fi movies that came out in the fifties and sixties and into the seventies that kind of influenced and made this movie what it was in some ways, um that are kind of left out. And I think that the meat loaf character is also supposed to be a reference to like fifties like you know, James Dean biker boys right right, and then him getting like killed so abruptly. It's supposed to be, but we don't know, but it's a metaphor. It's like basically like if you're watching like like date movie, like it's in thirty years, you're just gonna not know where all these references are. Yeah, you're like, oh, reference equals comments, got it? Uh what you were saying about the Oh that that was all I had to say on on it for the moment. But yeah, there's there's there's more to come with that one. But basically that there in b movies specifically, there were some characters that made more explicit challenge to je Under that seemed to have influenced Frankenfurter's character that have just kind of been because they were the movies or kind of like forgotten comic books lost to time, but there is a clear history of like influence that like, like this movie didn't come out of nowhere. Y gotta got it. Should we talk about those rapes scene? I mean we've got it in some must Thanks for coming out tonight, everybody. I love to just get a room of people and just be like, let's talk about those rape scenes. But we must, we must, we must. Um. So what happens here in this narrative is that first we see Janet in bed, someone who she thinks is her fielce say comes in and starting kissing her, and then suddenly it turns out to be Frankenfurter in disc eyes. She freaks out, She tells him to stop, screams for help, says, you tricked me. I wouldn't have and then Frank Confreter says, stop it. Do you want Brad to see you like this in a compromising sexual position, because he basically grabs her legs and like kind of thrust his pelvis into yes, um without doubt, placing the blame on her. And then she says, like, what it's your fault, You're to blame. I was saving myself. And then Frank Confreter responds by saying, well, I'm sure you're not spent yet, and then suddenly her attitude changes and then he is like kissing her again, and then she's like, promise you won't tell Brad, and then they presumably have sex. And this is supposed to be for is a funny moment, yeah, And second, a moment that is supposed to indicate, like you were saying, Caitlin, a liberation in the character where this like pretty explicit assault, very it's supposed to mean. And now she is open to sexual experience because she was raped, which is pretty clearly the opposite of what that is. A similar thing happens in Cruel Intentions with the Selma Blair character. But yeah, basically, I mean to break down this scene, she is assaulted just by the mere fact of she thinks that Frank Conforter is someone else, and then it's like the revenge of the Nerds thing, and then she says no, no, no, like denying consent, and then Frank Conforter is like, come on, though, you'll like it, and then she's like contenticating that you can be talked out, persuaded, and then he's like gas lighting her and then suddenly she's into it, question Mark, It's just kind of like this like idea of like you know, like a like a no is just like a yes that needs a little more negotiate. Like she just you know, she doesn't know what she wants. She's just waiting for like the right like guy to come along and and and show her right. And the same thing happens to Britten. And I think that like both Janet and Brad are victimized by these scenes. And the way that Frankenfurter's character is written is enforcing all these negative, negative, negative stereotypes yes about you know, and it's it's hot. I don't know exactly how we should be classifying Frekenfurter specifically, but you know, just I say, will call him queer and like, yes, just like all these like negative like you know, negative stereotypes that exist about that have existed about queer people in like you know sci fi and horror movie is like really up until like very recently yesterday and still but just yeah, like implying that by I mean and again it's like not made explicitly clear, but that by challenging the gender binary in any way that Frank converter, is a predator, is a cannibal, is like is a murderer, and and then conflating it with anyone who challenges the gender binary at which is like a problem that comes up again and again and again, and even in this extremely iconic movie, it's very present. Oh no, but I mean, I mean, like it extends to like, you know, it's Buffalo Bill, This is like, yeah, yeah, it's It's also that these scenes are like campy rape scenes in a campy movie. I know, they're like it's right, but it's fine, But like is it that makes it all the more dangerous because the whole the scenes are played for humor and for laughs, and it's like disguising full assault in camp and which I sort of am of the mind of. Like that is almost like the most insidious dangerous way to do it. That If you can play a scene like that and make people laugh with it, that's a very potent dangerous thing we co do for sure. Um and is not something that has been challenged as much as I mean it was genuine. I mean I think that the first time I saw that when I was fourteen, I didn't know what to make of it. But everyone was laughing, and so you recalibrate to be like, Okay, I guess that's funny. I mean, yeah, I mean I saw it as a like I think I saw that scene in a very like you know, tens of levens. I saw it pretty young age, and yeah, it just it just kind of like gave me this idea of like, Okay, this is like a normal, acceptable excemple thing. My parents did not only let me watch Fox at such a young age, but yeah, yeah, yeah, so so that I mean, no one comes out of those scenes. I mean it's just like it's on every level it does not hold up. No, no, uh. The most that it does, I guess is like sort of solidifies Frankenfurter as like by or maybe even pan sexual. So it's not good representation of queerness on screen, but it's there. So that's confusing to grapple with. Yeah, well, I mean I feel like that sort of goes into the the larger conversation about Frankenfurter in general. So let's good, let's get into that. I mean, there's truly where to begin. Um, yeah, I guess I'll start on the lighter side of the conversation and UH, talk a little bit about Tim Curry, who plays part who kind of I mean, it's it's we're we're in an era where so few people hold up as people, much less people worth admiring, and Tim Curry it seems to generally hold up as a person, which is great, Um, Tim Curry. So, what I wasn't aware of prior to like researching for this episode was that Rocky Horror was a stage show first. So Tim Curry had already been playing the party originated the part of Frankenfurter Uh in UH nineteen seventy three, played it in London, played it on Broadway, and then was one of the few cast members that also played it in the movie. UM, and so had a good understanding of this piece based on my research. This was not the first time that Tim Curry had played around with gender in his uber. He had also been in a play called The Maids in nineteen seventy one, where he played a sado massochistic female maid named Solange would Love to See Sho. So Tim Curry already had a history of having an interest in playing with gender UH and his performances and is still very much stands by the legacy of Rocky Horror. And so this is a quote from OH five in an interview with Terry Grows where he says that he views Rocky Horror to be quote a rite of passage and adds the film is quote a guaranteed weekend party to which you can go with or without a date and probably find one if you don't have one. And it's also a chance for people to try on a few roles for sides, you know, figure it out, help them maybe figure out their own sexuality unquote. Um. And he's remained pretty involved in the Rocky Horror community to the point where he was the narrator in the Laverne Cox stage adaptation that was on Fox in So uh yeah, Tim Curry, Now let's get into the harder stuff A well. I I thought that because the only real serious attempted update at this material, because it is in some in a lot of ways kind of un updatedble yah. A real example against reboot culture because it's like some material it's just like it's so in the DNA of it. But this was rebroadcast is one of the like broadcast Broadway shows in sixteen, and Frankenfurter was played by Liver and Cox And I know you've done some research into this as well. I have some quotes from her that I thought were really interesting. Well, I think and I think this might be what you're getting too, but like at least in terms of what she had to say about like, you know, Frankenfurter and their identity. Um, she talked a lot about it. The fact that you know, she as a character as a person identifying as like a like you know, a quote unquote like trans sexual, transvestite like that. That was like of the language and the level of the language a person a person like that would have like at the time, at the time the playteam, at the time the movie came out. So you know, it was kind of like with frankin fur you're kind of looking at a character like bumping up against the walls of you know, just of understanding that the culture had at that time, and that's how they were defining themselves. Um. And you know, it would probably be a you know, a very different character if they were written today. But I think there's still kind of the idea that you know, you honor how they saw themselves back then, because that's you know, we still want to honor that and observe it, and I guess if that makes sense. Yeah, so I totally agree. I I it's so like what served to me because I tried to go through a little bit of the because it seemed like people like it wasn't like a huge event, but people enjoyed it. It was generally well regarded. Victoria Justice Victor Jealousy plays Janet, you know, like we love it. Tim Curry plays a Narator, the Verne Cox is Frank Conforter. You know, it's like, I feel like, as far as an attempt at an update, they did, but they're good. But what I thought was interesting was when Laverne Cox was doing interviews about this project, Um, she was talking a lot about, I mean, when we've talked about this in the on the podcast, a fair amount of pressure on a specific actor to represent their entire community in every part they play. And Laverne Cox kind of spoken on this to an extent when she was talking about this, because she recognizes in interviews that this is not the most up to date of the moment park at play, but she's acting and and and sort of the pressure that she is one of the only prominent trends of actors. Working to always be representing not just her own work but just of everyone is an enormous pressure. So a few quotes from her that she that she said when this came out was quote to call a trans woman a transstite in is very offensive. But as an actor, I don't play roles based on politics. This is just acting. I think of all the male identified actors who have played Dr Frankenfurter on stage over the years, I don't think any of them identified as transvestites either. People are confused about trans identity anyways, but hopefully we can have a discussion about it. Um. So that was just like the little bit of what she said when she played this role that I thought was interesting, And I think that's I mean, you know, kind of like what I get from Like the heart of that is, you know, like why this is like Frankfurter, you know stuff aside, like is like a fun like role to get to play, Like it's a fun like character to live in, especially for like that the big number, and it's you know, it's I understand the desire to be like I don't constantly want to be like defined by the politics surrounding my identity. Some times, and I just want to like have fun in a role sometimes I just want to you know, like act and seeing and like have play a big, campy character. And I think she has that. I totally think she has that right as a performer. Absolutely. Yeah. So that that was like one thing that was just like, like, what what an extreme pressure put under? That would be put on very few other working actors to represent everybody at once. Um so so yeah, I mean, and and then there's the troops we were discussing earlier, which was just Frankfurter presenting a queer identifying character as literally every negative stereotype I can think of, down to cannibal, which I don't even normally think about. It also took me a few views of this movie to be like, oh, they're eating meat. Loof, like I'm not the meat. Then that would have been way chiller. But they were eating the famous musician. Did they but catch up on him? Though? That's how you eat meat love. I believe, Yes, I actually believe Frankenfunter puts me catch up on him. Yes, it's so it is very as well as like portraying Frankenfurter is very very spiteful and jealous and vengeful and violent and just really everything in the book. But but what the arc that was pointed out by the writer Ronnie Baker that I wanted to point out that was sort of pulled from that legacy of B movies and comic books with characters challenging gender that came before it. And this also sort of ties into and I haven't done the deep research necessary, so dragged me a few must. But the where the place that movie codes were at in the nineteen seventies, we're at a very in between place where the extremely rigid codes of like Doris Day end up being a wife and wifeing rules like that has fallen away, and now there's more room for for more challenging material but still with restrictions. And Rocky Horror is kind of a good bottle example of that, where we are allowed to love enjoy in spite of the fact that there's a lot of negative stereotypes being portrayed. But but people love Dr Frank Confer there like he's the center of the movie. He's the most remembered character, and so we're allowed to have this character front and center as long as as the movie plays out. This character is punished for their transgression at the end, which is what happens when riff Raff and Magenta come back and they zapp him and he dies and it's very tragic. And that was sort of where where the narratives stood in terms of how queer characters can be portrayed. Yes, and uh and also like you know, I think, like, um, I bring this zap Columbia. Columbia dies too in that scene. And you know, I feel like lot of the kind of the way like trans like specifically like trans women are portrayed in in media in general, but specifically in horror films, they are you know classically like the Kill like you know, the Villain Sleepway, Sleepaway Cam, like uh, the Brian, the Brian to Palmer movie with Mike Caine, Dead Kill, Kill, Sleepaway Camp, the Seed of Chucky like um, and my God. But like all those things kind of like come down to I feel like it's like it's not just the trend. It's not just like specifically like trans women are villains. It's that there's something I feel like if there's something innately like duplicitous and villainous about like women, and that's and what and then and therefore like what could be like more like band that wants to take on those qualities because like if you like watch like like I'm gonna use a seed of Chucky at dress to kill as my two private examples, but there's a lot of examples of this of where it's like presented is very binary, Like the character has a male side and a female side, and it's always in those movies, it's always like the female side is the one that is like doing the killing. Um, so, you know, and I think that like plays out in the mote in in Here where it's it's not just like Frankenfurter that is, you know, it is kind of villainized for kind of messing with the gender binary a little bit. But you know, like Columbia is a you know, it's kind of like a hysterical, like very like jealous woman. Like she's like driven pretty much entirely by jealousy throughout the entire film, you know that, and no one like you know, like it's kind of hard to keep track of what her relationships are because just like there's like multiple times where she bursts out and she's like I was in love with you, and you're like who are you, um, but like she's another I feel like, you know, she is punished for that as well. At the end. Something that because I always think about at least like transphobia specifically towards like trans women trans women, is that it's it's just a it's also just you know, massa, it's just it's just misogyny in another form. Yeah. And and then I mean, just even based off of you talking about that, I mean, there's really not anyone who presents in traditional men's clothing who has made out to be remotely bad in this movie where they're mostly victimized. Where with the meat Load character coming out in the like traditional mancho James dean biker outfit, hacked a death immediately he's victimized. The scientist is also the rival scientist is victimized, Brad is victimized. Where and then it's made out that Frank Conferter, like the characters that present female like whether that be Frank Conferter, or that the Janet being like feeling welcome to have sex well in audience full of people thirty years later screaming sled her like they are more are aggressively punished by the narratives that makes a lot of sense. Oh boy. I mean, just to touch on a few of the other female characters, not that there are many, but um comb Magenta is riff Raff's sister slash lover question Mark um Like that whole storyline is she's pretty sidelined. Like there's a few scenes where she's like talking to Columbia and then like but never really doing anything. Or the only scene where she's talking to Columbia is the scene that is the Bectel test mind funk of this movie, where it's Columbia and Magenta talking to each other as they're watching a TV screen of with that clearly without consented Janet Janet and Rocky is a baby is a born sexy yesterday? But yeah it's true, which is a subversion that I like sometimes that people like I'm subverting the troupe. I'm like, okay, so you're just hurting someone else, cool, good for you. But like they're they like Columbia Magenta are watching and you know, unconsented twitch stream of Susan Saranda during her high school soprano like catch me. So they're watching people funk without their consent and making fun of them, and it is the it doesn't but we'll get there. But yeah, I mean, I guess my point is like Magenta truly doesn't really matter to this story at all. I mean, I'm sure she's a beloved character, but like even when like mostly it seems like riff Raff has decided like I'm going to overthrow this mad scientist and you know, kill him and then take oh like fly this ship out of here. You know, Magenta is very sidelined in that scene, which I think is partially because Richard O'Brien is like film me, I'm ready for my close to an actor. But yeah, I mean, I think overall the movie doesn't care very much about its female characters. And I also viewed Colombia being another person who sort of falls dead at the end of the movie to be that the only people were I mean, Frankenfurter's character. I would say, it's like kind of inconsistent towards the end. Where towards the end, I think that Frankenfurter's song has become very sympathetic, where uh, you know, he's singing don't dream it be It and is singing about you know, like challenging things. Oh yeah, I mean I will say like as a kid, like no, like very few like lines and songs spoke to me as much as like whatever happened to Fayray that delicate satin drape frame as I something like I started to cry because I wanted to be dressed just the same, and like that lyric means like I'm not gonna hear but that, but that like lyric, like that is so sympathetic towards like what I felt like myself going through at that time, and like to hear it has expressed very lovely. I think that it is such a lovely expression of of what I felt and what that character is feeling. And like I don't know, I just I yeah, it gets very he gets very sympathetic at the end. Yeah, he really doesn't. In those last songs, they're very beautiful and they're very honest, and they are not the cannibal murderer of forty five minutes ago, certainly, And it's only then that Frank Inverter is killed, when when he's expressing his most like concise truth, as well as Colombia, who I think is a reference to a movie company, uh being being the only one too. I mean female character, so shriek out in his defense. But she's the only person besides Rocky who expresses upset at his being killed, and so she's killed and Rocky's killed. And because Janet and Brad and Dr Scott are the bystanders who said nothing, they get to go on and live their lives. And that feels like kind of sending a I don't know how intentional it would have been at the time, but it does sort of seem to send a message of like, the people who stood up for the one character that expressed their truth at least at the very end, Uh, go down with that character. And that my academic So yeah, that those are those are my thoughts on Frankenfurter. Yeah, Wow, there's there's just so much. So I think that there's a little bit to be said about Brad here where I mean, I think one of the few things that I am like, yeah sure about the live culture of the movie is shouting asshole at Brad because he is an asshole. Uh we're at the beginning. I like that they're kind of satirizing the expectations of like the traditional like sis Head, White couple of this time where there it does it does seem like it's trying to be implied at the beginning that they're only getting engaged because they feel like that's what they're supposed to do. They're at a marriage they you know, Janet is like, oh, I need to get married next, and then Brad like, okay, like his that's the whole vibe damage and she's like, um, well, even like the choreography, it's just like he's like saying it, but he's like physically like removing himself from it. It's like it's a darting away. Yeah, and and and so I mean, and I'm going to just kind of remove the assault scenes from this analysis because those seem to be kind of a thing unto themselves that aren't dealt well well within this movie. But in general, uh, Brad seems to be this character that is acting on what he thinks he is supposed to be doing. He is completely almost acting on like what the expectations of a quote unquote man at this time should be doing. And then we see him and Janet at the end when they're unstatuified question mark um, you know, and they're all they're all wearing the frank confurter um. Why can't I think of the word. Yeah, they're all wearing the uniform basically at this point, and they sing about how they feel liberated, and that leads into dunk dream it be it, And I do like the idea of where that arc goes. I truly detest that a jokey rape scene is part as one of the main plot points that helps them again to that place. But taking I mean, one of the I thought the more effective commentaries of this movie is taking that that very trope couple that's like, I guess we're getting married. I guess we love each other, and then taking them on this journey and ending them with like Janet saying that she has all this new sexual confidence and that she feels like a new person, and Brad doing that really kick that made me horny when I was little, the very spinny yeah, not full kick, and then the shutter is it okay? But like but again, that also implies that the queer characters are there to further the straight character's narratives. So there, there's there's just there's truly every problem. Indeed, Yeah, Brad is an interesting underwritten character, much like every character in this true I don't know if I have that much else. Does anyone else have any other final thoughts? Not really, I mean I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure that there's stuff we're missing here. Uh you know, uh, we're all watching this together. Last night I was like, I love meat loaf, and then I googled meat loaf politics, and now I don't. Yeah, yeah, sorry, I propose we can all still listen A bad out of Hell. But yeah, I don't google meat loaf politics. He is addicted to Mitt Romney. Yeah, yeah, to him, the main Romney. Yeah, it's it's nasty and boring. So yeah, there we go. Shall we take a few moments for some audience questions comments? Story? But oh well, actually I have a I have a friend here. Uh and she was like a pretty active part of like a Rocky You were in the Rocky Horror scene, right, Kate, my friend Kate Rap Hi, everyone to give my friend Kate wrapped a hand like you have like a bicoastal like Rocky Horror story. Rights. Yes, yes, yea Kate rap my righting partner comes to our show at some point. Yeah, it's at some point. Okay, so I'll make this really quick. But I did go to the like the new art shows in high school because I grew up in the South Bay not too far from here, and I remember being like seventeen and thinking that Rocky was super hot. I mean, like the guy who plays Rocky is just like an icon in any Rocky Horror performance, like, and I saw him after the show, and I don't know how it happened, because I did get like probably black out drunk, which is also like a weird part of the Rocky Horror live show culture, like they like want young children to get very drunk. It's very weird, like you're back. Yeah. So I was like very drunk, and I made out with Rocky, like I think, just in front of the theater like at the New York Like we didn't go to a bar or anything afterwards. So I was like, this was the highlight of my life. I was like seventeen. I got to make out with Rocky and then he takes his wig off and he looks very different, and I was just like, this is strange, Like I'm feeling something different now. I was, You're a real human, this is not the same anyway. Um fast forward, I go to college in New York like a year later, and he's like doing a guest slot at the like Chelsea in New York like version of Rocky Horror. And I made out with him again, So I mean I with Rocky twice. It's the height of my sexual conquest. And I think he's like a Trump supporter now, so he like sucks. What is I think he's like, really he's really be it might have been meat load. Oh my god, thank you for sho you feel slightly guilty because like when I when I asked, you, like, come tell the story. It's gonna be really fun, and then I was I did not also say like we're gonna be talking about rap scenes for like minutes. Build enough to the questions comments, any thoughts from from anyone? Yeah, oh yes, and the person who has not seen Rocky Horror before, I just want to know which role Alfred mull Thank you so much. Drasing Well, I think if we're under selling his talents, which we never should, uh, he would play an excellent Brad. It would bring you know, not to not to downplay Berry or his kicks, but you know, couldn't bring a lot more. But you know, he could have brought a lot more to that role, I think. But Ultimately, I think that we should have had him playing Rocky Horror, Like we really need a British beefcake in that role. Um, and not an American model. Is there anyone? I mean he also could have play River. I mean he could have played literally anyone in the movie nowadays. He could be like, like, well, I think I could see him as the criminologist. Obviously he's in Frozen two. He is. Yeah, another reason to see Frozen two. I know, well, Alfred Billio is in it. He I mean, as usual, any role will do, But I feel like Tim Curry has to play Frank Confurter. That's the only like normally I will displace any actor in favor of Alfread Billina. But I do think that Tim Curry will stay h and Alfred Billina would not be like I mean, as we know, he's our friend. He's our friend, he's not a diva. He won't be like I can't believe he would say, I'm just thrilled to be here. Yeah that's true. Um yeah, but started going off of what he was saying about the pressure to get teens drunk. That is one thing that I didn't mention in my discussion of the community of there have been issues with the upside of the community is that everyone is welcome regardless of age, so you have young teens coming into the community. The downside of that is that there are pictures posted of scantily clad teenagers without their consent, alcohol being passed around to them, and a lot of sexual pressure being put on young people without any regard for their age. So just a fun thing me love, Yes, he's alive or do we have any other com questions or commute? Jumping off from the discussion of trans women being the villains also psycho yes, yes, drasticill is, terror is terrible and the complete something changed. I'm sorry, but spirit Halloween. Um, I think it should be discussed whether or not Frank comes scaps. I no one has ever wanted to bring this up before. People are usually upsetting, horrified. Okay, so let's open the floor here Frankenfurter. When Frankenfurter comes, we usually have this conversation and regards to Beetle'll just pull let's up in it up to Frankenfurter. What the material that has come with it? I think it would be like, no, well, well we're not the thing that bothers me is that people are like, it's not scaps. It's for sure scaps. But even for even for Frankenfurter Halloween characters comes scaps. Okay, it's cannon. Okay, it's cannon. But the question where or dry he's well, he's an a like you know, he's an alien, so like we don't know what his internal internal like biology is like you know what kind of what organs he does or doesn't have, So like, yeah, I think like I think he comes from a race where anybody comes scabs. Yes, okay, but are they are they dry? Um, they're wet? Yeah, team wet scat, you're dry the wet they're usual. I am always team dry scap. Imagine the card of the deck of cards literally beetle juice comes dry scabs like yeah, yeah, yeah, just like like like a machine gun, yes yeah, just a one scab after another and then wet scabs. I can't say it enough. Is a laser jab printer printing a full color? Okay, we had some other we got to change something, other questions, other comments, Yes, come come on down. Just another quick thing. At the beginning of the film, when at the wedding scene, where the car drives up and on the side of the car it says like just married and like shaving cream, and right below that it says she just got hers. Now tonight he's gonna get his, which is very iggy. Yes, yes, thank you for pointing that out. I guess that's like commentary on how like, oh, this is how straight people be, but I don't even know I think that. Yeah, like it has a comment on like women want marriage, men want to just that you know that bridal party. Don't put that much on the car, right yeah, your friend's relationship, that's not your jobs per funcing on the bride's friends friends. To make no mistake, this couple is problematic and all the expected we are going is goodbye. We're gonna use this in the chance to sub tweet them. But I also feel like that opening sequence with like the wedding and everything is like, oh, look look at these fucking normies and their heteronormativity. Wait till you get to the castle and that's when things get cool and fun and you get hosted and then also you will be assaulted. Um so than you know, problems winning. Uh, well, does the movie pass the Bechdel test? No, no, it does. It does. There we was there, we was so there was a there's the one question mark scene where we were all sort of like, might it yes? The question is is it saying someone's dialogue back to them or in a mimicking tone countess dialogue? Like it's it's like being like that is that that kind of dialogue? And that's the Magenta Columbia scene that we have alluded to you before, but ultimately for me because in this scene it is two women with names talking to each other about surveilling a heterosexual couple without their consented and making fun of them. I say it doesn't pass right. I mean the line goes because they're watching Janets sing a song too Rocky about how she just had sex with Frankenfurter, and Magenta says do you mean she, and Columbie says uh huh. And that's the only scene I clocked where women interact. Later, they do sing refrained like a touch of touch me I wanted to dirty back and forth to each other. That is then like just sn't like yeah, which like passes I guess on paper. But the context is like they're talking about the kind of hetero sex with a man and just like, regardless the fact that there, I mean, that would be maybe our wildest pass yet that like watching people fucking without their consent and making fun of them somehow passes. The still tasks like almost regardless of what they're saying, Like even if they're watching an unconsented feed of people having sex and being like, so have you read the latest Roxanne Gay, I'd still be like, I don't know that this passes. They're still doing something that's very illegal, so I don't Yeah, I I I don't think it passes from me. Yeah. Well, Times have rated on our nipple scale um zeroified nipples based on its representation of women, but all things considered based on our entire discussion because there's value in this movie like being kind of, you know, a gateway for people who might be questioning their sexuality or gender to kind of have exposure to something. This might have been more true in decades past because now there is more content available the focuses on queer narratives, but because it does have such a big cultural impact. Um. But then also the movie truly doesn't really have any vested interest in any of its female characters. They impacted the plot almost none, and I'm getting there. The prologue is, um, I have to say like one and a half, I was gonna say, is that too how low? Or too high? Too high? The audience? O, my god? Stand thank you? Okay, fine, I'll apologize again and I'll stand by my decisions. Okay, thank you, thank you. I'm so like Coodness you're yelling at her. There you guys. I'm also everyone is I'm still dressed as brad Um. Okay, one and a half nipples and I will give one of them to Tim Curry and my half nimble to Susan Surrandon, but for Thelma and Louise and not this movie. I'm also going to go one and a half. I don't want any comments, thank you. No, I'm gonna go one and a half. I appreciate and still, you know, like I mean, it's it's I'm glad that the Rocky horror cultural legacy exists. I think that it has a ton of value, especially in its time, and I think that it is like more of a region to region influence than most of the movies that we cover were Like I mean, yeah, I mean in in some reasons, I would imagine that Rocky Horror is still an extremely valuable resource of community for people who are questioning or want to be involved in the queer community to go to. UM. So I am very grateful for its legacy. In terms of content, as we you said, it's all fucking over the place. Uh. It does not have a lot of regard for its female characters. It is not a very thoughtful representation of really anybody at all. UM very white movie as well, extremely white movie. You only see people of color in background shots, and they can't afford to bring the extras back in every scene, so it is just it is a mess. I am glad that it was successful. I think this is a great example of a movie we've covered that paved the way for better perspectives. Because this movie had a one point four million dollar budget and made one hundred times its budget at the box office. It was extraordinarily successful and so for all of its many, many many faults that we've discussed, a movie being that successful and presenting queer culture in any way I feel like does pave the way for uh, more qualified voices and more progressive voices to take the lead. Because with when it comes to you know, the capitalistic night where we live in. If something makes money, people will give those types of narratives more of an opportunity with different writers. So I'm glad it exists. And uh and and one and a half nippies for that and that alone. I will give one to Tim Curry and I'm going to give a half e too, Rocky because he was a baby. He was a baby, and we didn't talk about that enough. Born Sexy yesterday. Look up the trope. This is the only male example we've recovered of it. Um. I think both of what you said was stating very elegantly about you know, the cult of the importance of the cultural impact of the film and uh, you know, speaking to someone who can relate to that, you know, to some extent, it wasn't the most important or influential piece of you know, queer media in my in my youth, um, but it was still like it was still important to me there for me at certain points that I agree with all that. Um, But I do think, you know, it really seems like this is a subculture for you know that I'd love to sit to see stick around, but also like a lot of subcult like you know, subcultures right now need to be like reevaluated, you know, yes updated, you know, we can find a better thing to what's the progressive thing we can Yet, like Janet every time she comes on screen, does exactly watch the Videl the Vicdel's cat. Um they should all be pluns for your for your powers. Um but um so yeah so I and I think I like that their their voices within the space now sticking up, trying to find the trying to find ways to you know, bring bring you know, Rocky Horror for as you know, messy and uh complicated a piece of entertainment. It is, bring that culture, bring that community into you know, into nineteen and beyond. And that's something you know, because it would it wouldn't make me sad. It would make me sad to think that like Rocky Horror just like stopped existing because you know, I did a lot of you know, this morning, I did a lot of research, you know or not am I read like three wikipe I read like three articles online. I did a ton of research. Um but I like you know, found like like um articles from you know, like little like colleges like in the middle of the country and for them like you know, like from like literally like this, like this October, like a couple like a week or two ago talking about you know, like you know, Rocky Horror. You know, coming to campus is like this big deal and it is like you know, they like one of one of like two or three, like you know, queer focused events they have every they have every year, some pieces not even every year. So you know, I think there is still like an importance and a you know outside of maybe where we are, outside of our bubble, like there's still a lot of like good community can do. So long as it a key, it evolves, and you know, um yeah, and I guess I would say I'm gonna stay on the one and a half stars training and say I'll give I'm gonna give a half a star to Tim Curry and then I'll give one half to the Magagina and one half Columbia. And for the very cool normal activity of painting each other's toe nails. Yes, which does so? I think we're talking to painting to like painting your friend's house is a form of communication. It is, yes, yes, we think about Oh goodness, well, John, thank you so much for being here. Give it up for John Ford. John Buss where can people follow you? What would you like to plug? Tell us everything? Oh gosh, um, I'm on Twitter and Instagram. Is Joan Hailey Ford I have a If you're in l a uh Me and Kate have a show coming up December twelve at the UCB Theater. It's our two person sketch team Red and Yellow. So please come, please come see that eight thirty UCB K Which which theater? Is it? Sun Sat? You see sun Sat? There you go? Yeah? Yeah, Scot, Joan and thank you too, so so much for coming. Thank you to the Ruby Theater. Thank you to Aristotle, all staff of the Ruby is Thank you Jamie than you can. Thank you for coming. Have a good night. There you have it our live Rocky Horror Picture Show show. Thanks again to everyone who came out. Thanks again to the Ruby for having us. Don't forget about our final live l A show at that location at the Ruby on November nine, We're covering Home Alone. Don't miss it. Details for that and other live shows that we do in various locations can be found on places like bechtel cast dot com, Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook. You can follow us on those platforms at bechtel Cast also don't forget to check out our Patreon a k a Matreon at patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast. A subscription gets you to bonus episodes a month for only five dollars per month. You can also visit our merch store at t public dot com slash the Bechtel Cast for all of your merchandizing needs, including some spooky designs like feminist icon Beetlejuice, Team dry Scabs, Team wet Scabs, and his Wife. Other than that, just go and do the time warp again by