When Harry Met Sally with Naomi Ekperigin

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Speaker 1: On the Beck Dol Cast. The questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef invest start changing it with the Beck Del Cast. Hello and welcome to the Beck Dol Cast. My name is Caitlin Jamie, and we are here to talk about movies and how women are portrayed in movies per usual. As per usual, we are inspired, were so inspired by the Bechdel test, which requires that a movie has two women, they have to have names, they have to have a conversation. Their conversation has to be about something other than a man. Does it ever happen? Almost never. We tried. We tried to crunch the numbers of episodes we've done so far, not too long ago, and we get too frustrated, and especially because so many of them I couldn't even remember. Forthcoming. Yeah, we should shell out some hot stats. Love a love a good chart, Give me a graph, give me the data, give me the meta data. So this is about to be an interesting episode. It's my fault because don't worry. I'm not here to shame you. Don't shame yourself. I am but why I was born. We were recording this intro post the recording of the episode post certainly, so we're recording this intro post recording of the episode because we had a situation, yeah, where Jamie had to be somewhere else that I have a bunch of pictures of me dancing with a redheaded child, honestly evidence of how I spent my time. So we had to record without you. So the episode you were about to hear is just a hero's journey, right. It's me Caitlin, and it's our guest. But we still have things to say. You and I. We have unfinished. We have unfinished. So yeah, Jamie and I will check back in towards the end, but for now, enjoy this episode with Caitlin. And she has a Comedy Central half hour. She's been on Late Night with Seth Myers. She was a writer for a broad City and currently writes on Great News. Naomiic Paragan, Hi, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, so we're pretending right now as though Jamie's here. She's not surprised. Why did you go blow up the spot? Because I was like totally no, But then people would notice because she is not chiming in. People will be like, well, why isn't Jamie saying anything? What if it was just like, oh, we tied her up, but we wanted her to be here. Would we do tie people up? It's only the men guests we have on the show, because, of course, you know, we're here to talk about women in movies. If a man dares to enter our podcast, premises they can, but they have to pay a price, and we do have to tie them up. I do notice that your producer is a submissive, so that does make a lot of sense, you know. Shout out to Aristotle, the most wonderful man in the world. He's so sweet and he's the greatest. He's sitting blushing in the corner, shaking his head like a real power Battom, there we go. Oh man, anyway, thank you so much for being here. We're here to talk about the movie When Harry met Sally. Yes, so you said, this is a movie you've seen dozens of times, a bunch of times, so many own it on DVD, love it nice. When did you first see it? I was probably in eighth or ninth grade. I saw it, so, you know, like I was like, I feel like I just found I need to Franco. I was having a lot of feelings. I was like a very naturally romantic child, you know, really into all the bron Jay sisters and just like longing as a concept. Emily, We've got Charlotte, Charlotte, We've got Samantha, We've got carry a sorry wrong group of women. We've got Raphael, We've got Michaelendelo. Oh no, that's not even women or humans. Fuck anyway, So you saw it early on, and you've seen it is one of your favorite movies. It's definitely like a comfort movie, you know. I think as I've gotten older, of course it is dated. You know, it feels a little cheesy, but I really love it. What I also love you know, I'm from New York and it's a New York movie. You know, the settings are really shoot New York really well, and it's so pretty and stuff like that, you know, when it kind of captures New York on all four seasons, like the lovely Moan of Them in the Fall and fucking Central Park and it's just like Foliage, Hello, the Foliage alone, The Follige alone is worth rewinding. Yeah, So I think I saw this movie for the first time, probably in college. I was a bit older when I saw most of the movies I saw because surprised. I went to film school, and then I went and got a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. Crag, I love it. I almost want to get I was going to do a PhD in film studies. I majored in film in English and my thesis was a screenplay. But then yeah, and then I was like, oh, maybe I'll be like a professor or like, you know, like an academic, you know, and really like race and fail and get really gritty. And then like after a couple of years of college, I was like, I don't want to go back to homework. And there goes that life. Joe, Hey, there's still time girl plays. I am too old to be listening to anybody, true, I mean no, what did I say? I just feel like I would just reach the age like you want me to do? What I mean? Why? Exactly? I have cats to feed. You know? What I mean is you don't have to listen to anyone. You're not too old to do anything, Thank you so much. That's wait, do you have cats? I do have two cat children. Oh my god, I just flew them here. Just oh my god, you should come by. We just flew them here from New York. It was the first time with them in a plane. Who it was very stressful that they made it through. I would like to remind everyone that cats do have eight nipples and they can see ghosts, as we learned from the movie Ghost. Do they have eight? I mean, do boys have eight? I have male cats and I'm never feeling you will never felt eight. Count them there there. They might not be as prominent. They're not. But are you maybe you only seeing pregnant cats? No? I mean, I'm not like investigating every cat. But if you google how many nipples does a cat have? The answers eight with both men and women cats, men and women, men and women, game male and male cats, they all have eight nips, even the boycats, even the males. Wow. So this has been another episode of Facts, Cat Facts with Caitlin. Anyway, So let's talk about the movie. So you went to film schooling or you major film in English, right, So you're a great guest to have on you know all about all the stuff. Um, I'll go into my recap. When Harry met Sally is the story of Harry and Sally. They meet on a drive a road trip from Chicago to New York when they're I think I've both graduated college and they don't like each other. Their personalities just like don't mesh very well. In their trip, they have a discussion. Harry's like, men and women can't be friends because the sex always gets in the way. Men are always gonna want to fuck no woman, even if he doesn't think she's hot, he's still gonna want to fucker. And she's like, well that's pish posh, and well that's pitch posh. Correct. They had that conversation and he kind of He's like, well, you're attractive. She's like, you can't come on to me. I'm uptight and I'm delicate and I like to spend forty minutes ordering apple pie, which, by the way, what monster orders strawberry ice cream on apple pie pie. I know she's disgusting, it's disgusting, truly awful, truly awful. I'm with you on that. So he's like, oh, man, you're you're kind of cute, and she's like, you're dating my friend. You can't come on to me. And then they had the whole discussion where men and women can't be friends, and then they kind of part ways. Can we fast forward? Fast forward five years? Five years they meet again on an airplane. She's got a new guy. He's like supposed to be eighties hot, but it's pretty basics, like a very deep part and it's like the eighties there are certain guys where was like, did you do too much cocaine? Like you could be four to you could be twenty two. And he's kind of in that world, you know what I mean. But he's supposed to be the perfect guy. His name is Joe, Joe these one syllable names. No thanks Joe anyway, So stands Caitlin coming out here. So they reconnect on an airplane and they have the conversation again ken men and women be friends because at this point they're now in relationships both of them, and maybe we can. And then I'm like, I don't know, And then they part ways again, and then flash forward another five years. They meet up again. I'm blinking on where. They meet at a bookstore. Yes, they're in the bookstore. He's now going through a divorce. She's still with the guy with the blond side prod. She has broken up with him as well. They broke and broke up. Oh right, because then they start okay, now, yes they Right now they're both saying like, let's be friends. We both have broken hearts that are both feeling bad for ourselves, so let's be friends. Alongside all of this, you have Debbie Reynolds. No that's not her name. Harry Fisher, thank you so much for that. I was literally thinking Carrie Fisher, and then I was like, that's wrong. I love this movie and you probably don't think so, based on the bed that I can't remember anyone's names because all I all I think of is like short hair girl, because it's like for me, I don't know, I I think I'm thirteen in my mind whenever I watched that movie, and it doesn't carry Fisher. Her character's name is Marie. Marie is like again, she's kind of like a runner along the whole movie, Like she's thirsty. She's with this married man that she cannot let go of. So Sally and Marie are in the bookstore. They spot Harry and like, I love the world in which Billy crystals like hot, you know, so like I love Marie's Like, oh, who's he like by the self help books and it's like, Crystal, did you write this for yourself? But they reconnect in the bookstore and then they are like, maybe it's time that we can be friends. And they developed this close bond. It's a very tender bond. I'm like, I'm obsessed with their bond. It's a lot of just like long shots of them walking through New York and he's basically telling her to loosen up, and she's telling him to have emotions and you're just like a Christmas tree, Christmas tree shop. I love it, do you know? I know that tree shop? And right next to it was a pet store. It was like the plant shed and the pet shed. And I would always go to the pet shed to pick up gold feed or fish for my turtles. You've got turtles back. This is back in my youth. It you know, I'm a real turtle head. I'm glad to hear it. Turtles don't have any nipples. Agree. I agree with that scientific fact. I'm like the fact that you just like I was like, I have cats and she's like, they have eight nipples, and I was like, what are you talking about? I want you to go home tonight. And count your male cat. Will not do it, will not do it. I cannot feel like I've only felt too and that's all I need to feel well. For listeners out there at home who have cats, male or female, please count the nipples at us. Nipples play a prominent role in this podcast because we rate every movie on our nipple scale. Nipples we towards the end, okay, so get ready for that, but until then, we have a lot more important cat nipples to talk about. Just kidding, we're talking about when Harry met Sally. So I'm still halfway through this right, okay. So then so they're like friends. He there's a big moment when Sally finds out the Joe blonde side part is engaged. Yes, now their whole relationship. He was like, I don't want to be married. Lie. He then called her to tell her. He's like, I started seeing someone else and we're getting married. Sally can't even okay, she cannot even, she cannot even. What I love is that she like listen to or Ashley dream Home. It's like all you know, like like flower prints, and even though she's been sobbing, her hair is perfectly coiled and she calls Harry, because you know, they have a lot of phone calls late at night. They're very they're always watching Casablanca. Is it the only thing on TV late at night? And when you're lonely and cancelate, you turn on Casablanca. So she calls him to come over. Am My running is like, this is your something you're supposed to do, Like I'm a guest when he took over the podcast, but it's because I'm like, let us gets in a part because we're about to hit the turn turn. So he comes over because she's like, I'm Zoza Jo's getting married, throwing around tissues everywhere all willie nilly. She's throwing around tissues, she's hiccuping, she can't even she can't take anything, like the most beautiful crier I've ever seen. And then, in her sadness, her loneliness, she doesn't for a kiss. She goes in for a kiss, and Harry's male thirst he accepts this kiss and they have the set I've heard of it, are you familiar? I hear about it every now and then, but I don't like to get into details. So they have it the next morning. Now it's two people who've been friends at this point where like who've known each other for fifteen years, who've been friends for years, you naturally assume that once you engage in the coit is, it's going to be like on like Donkey Kong, like we're about to be a thing. Now, I don't Harry miss Sally. The next day he fucking ghosts her Ala swazy, and it's like, I gotta go. You're familiar with the concept of ghosting from the movie Ghost, you know, when you disappear and then come back and stalk someone, right, And so he like kind of like not blows her off, but he really he treats her like he treats it like a random like very withholding that's your homegirl, y'all was sitting and watched Cassa Blanc over the phone together And now you guys feel like you don't know nobody. Now as this all happens, Thirsty Marie has finally left the Merry Guy and is now in a relationship with Harry's best friend. And so of course Harry and Sally can't get rid of each other their best ends or a couple, you know, So they go to into they like meet up later to game night they're well seeing new people. They're trying to act like they don't care about the new people, but they totally do. And then it is New Year's Eve. That's when it really comes because basically he's been trying to call her. There's a one ful montage of him just constantly loving messages that she's not picking up because she's like girl bye. Finally they're at this fancy New Year's Eve party. She's dolled up in like a perfect eighties like Emerald Green with a giant bow, like her best life, and he's at home alone. And then finally one of the greatest running scenes of any movie, he runs through the streets of New York to get to this New Year's Eve party and he finds her. He's like, why did you come here here? And he's like, because when you know you want to spend the rest of your life with someone, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as boss one of the best. And then Meg Ryan does the lip quiver that is just really her claim to fame in the and she's like, this is why you, Harry. I can't stay mad at you. Hello. Cut to them being married, because the second best part of this movie is that the interstitials of old couples. There's like these standalone interstitials of old couples who have been together, you know, for years, like probably one two minute vignette of them just talking about like how they met or when they got married, and they're all like old and hilarious and my mostly white but mostly why. But then my favorite is the Asian couple where the where the Asian lady doesn't say a word, right, she does not speak sound. I almost don't even know if she's paying attention. And he's telling this story being like she was beautifult so I decided to marry her, and she's just like I'll co sign that. So that's like my favorite. So the end you see that they're married, and so it's like really really tender, and it's like all I ever wanted when I was little. And like Sally, I'm a very difficult orderer. Oh are you? I would never put ice cream and apple pie. But like, here's my thing about restaurants. I considered a menu to be a jumping off point for negotiations. Okay, I'm looking at that menu. That's basically you telling me what's in the kitchen. Huh okay. So most of the time to see what you got, and I'm like, let's see how we can juge it up. Let's say we can make it my thing. I just am very difficult. So like when you know, and I wonder sometimes if I got that from Sally, maybe I wonder if I got from Marins. You're like, she can do it? Why can't I? Why can't I? And it's funny because get away I do have my my hairy you know, my juwbu he did he does say, He's like, it's cute the way you order, and I was like, I did it. I found someone to brainwash. I thought this was acceptable. But the thing is, I'm really nice about it, Caitlin. When the server comes like a hey girl, I'm about to be a pain and ass I try to set it up so they're not so angry at me. That's very considerate you. I want to point out that in the scene where we first see her ordering, when she does the Devil's work and orders strawberry ice cream on an apple pie. Towards the end of that scene, she's like doing the math to figure out the tip and you find out that she's only tipping really, this makes my share six ninety or something like that, And it's like, uh, what, you were a pain in the fucking asshole. You need to tip at least twenty standard. But because she's so annoying about it, she should have gone the extra mile. But she totally cheaped out on that pre waitress. Well, one of the few people in the whole movie that's said in New York, I guess one of those fun versions of New York where there's I guess only white people live here, But there are a lot of people who live in that version of New York true, like in real life, you know, Like I went to private school in the Upper East Side and it was like unreal, Like, oh, the only brown person you know is you're nanny. That's weird. But it's doable if you, like, don't leave Park Avenue, you can make it work good for you. I used to live in Spanish Harlem and was one of only a few white people my neighborhood. So were you proud of yourself? I wouldn't go so far as well. You have come from Boston, right, I didn't grow up there. I grew up in rural western Pennsylvania, which is a very White clan country, right, kind of like the grand Wizard of the clan sector. I don't know how it works. I am proud to not know. I am proud of that. But he lived in the next town over cool, so cool, yep, and I was like, hey, maybe I shouldn't live here anymore. And I got the funk out as soon as I could. Yeah, yeah, Katagata. But yeah, so when Harry met Sally, Very White movie, it's true. It's funny because again, looking back, I think for me it was so eighties. It really exemplifies the eighties to me, you know what I mean, between their style and then like just that kind of romantic comedy because really the way it's made, you know, it's I'm like, oh, this could be a play, do you know what I mean? Because it's really just a serious talking head series of conversations, just a series of conversations against backdrops. And they do well to like make New York like it does look pretty at times, but so much of it is just like Okay, now we're gonna go talk over here, now we're gonna talk in here. And it's really a movie that relies on timing and like that, like witty banter like I feel like you couldn't make that movie now, but if you did it, we would not be in many theaters at all, you know what I mean? You know in movies how you need so many set pieces and big dance sequence at the end, I'll train wreckord stuff like that. But um, I'm going to take this opportunity now to say that I don't think I like this movie very much. It is annoying to me. How sure it's about like interpersonal relationships and stuff like that, I find it kind of boring. I think for rom com there's not that much column comedy in it. And you know, Billy Crystal, I suppose, is a charming slash annoying character, and you know there's always charming annoying. But she I don't find her an inherently funny person, right. She might have funny lines that she tries to deliver in a funny way. That's the problem. I won't get into it how they should cast female comics in comedy movies and not actresses who don't know how to But that's only you actually want the woman to be funny. Mag RAN's character is pretty much like a shrew or she's like this uptight, frigid woman, right, Like she's not really funny the whole idea or not whole idea, but it feels like what happens is Billy Crystals supposed to loosen her up, right, Like he gets to be the funny one, and she's like, but that's such an annoying trope that keeps happening in rom comes, Like why can't a woman be one of the funny people in the movie. It's so that's what bothers me about a lot of wrong coms where it's like this uptight woman and she has to be kind of broken down by this guy who comes in and I'd rather And I think this is a symptom of one of the things we talked about on this podcast, where women are just often pigeonholed into these like specific roles or troops or archetypes where they're like, I'm not this type of person. So I really like in a movie where a woman character is funny and like has funny lines to say and makes me laugh, because you don't see that that often. Yeah, no, definitely, but sorry to go on a rant, No that was not right. You keep you know, no it's not a rant if you talk for more than thirty seconds. It's a rant if you yell for more than five minutes. Should you see the difference? I see. I think ranting really requires a level of yelling and intensity. I can all yell because I feel like we say we're ranting like to apologize for having an opinion that we want to explain. Now, you're fine, I get it. I have a problem with manic pixie dream girls. I can't take a white girl with a bang running around like I can't and especially like it can only be like white women who get to have whimsy in general. And then also just the idea of that woman who's just like I am so free coming to my world and it's like, bitch, how do you pay bills? You know what I'm saying, and like, and that's one of the I I feel like that's a newer one. That's like I feel like it's of the two thousands. Yes, if you think about like a lot of nineties route, he tended to be a woman who was more like tough or it was like ten things I hate about you know, it's a tough girl and like and then some guy comes along and teaches her to let love in, you know, and then it became an uptight guy and then like a whimsical girl who like sleeps on angels wing right. Yes, I find that troupe very annoying. Would you like some we're examining the wine that I brought. Let me point out that it is in a plastic bottle. Yep, I am drinking crane like chardon Ay. Except it's not crane like chardon Ay. This is Trader Joe's Tubuck Chuck that I put inside the classic bottle that I saved because it's a great amount for a podcast Get drunk? Oh man, what were we talking about? Let's yeah. So I don't think it's terrible. I'd like that a woman wrote it. Nor Efron, she's always having a good time. But I think the problem with this movie for me is that it's for starters, very heteronormative to the point where like, which of course most romcoms are, but this movie is heteronormative to the point where it's like, men and women can't be friends because I've never heard of a gay person, and there's no such thing as relationships between a gay man and a straight woman or vice versa, like discounting that relationship dynamic entirely. Also just the idea that even two hetero people, a hetero guy and girl, can't be friends, because this movie is sort of at least popularized the idea that men and women can't have a platonic relationship because they're just gonna want to funk each other, which I don't know, maybe I'm being naive, but also I have no a bunch of platonic It's just like a very and maybe it was like, well it is a thing of nine when this movie came out, But I just, I mean, it is very dated, and I think, I mean definitely you know, dated conservative. I think it was of its time in that sense of like what can you think of any mainstream movie that didn't take like a really basic hard ciss that ere not mainstream? No, you know exactly. I feel like, well, this is gonna get made. And again I'm like, did it start as a play down in the West village? You know? I mean it's also it's also a movie to me where the audience is the characters the audience are white people, and they're like thirties or forties who are upwardly mobile, liberal issue, you know what I mean, Like it is with that tribe and yet like I've like when I was like thirteen or four team, when I couldn't be friends with boys like any guy I was like near, I was like, oh, I want, I want you to be my boyfriend like that. It made sense to me at the time, definitely, do you know what I mean, Because it was like I just crushes all the time. I was so thirsty and this is like a movie about thirst, you know, And it really spoke to me as a team. That's funny because I watched it recently with my fiance who had never seen it, and we watched it and I was just like, god, a lot of it. I was just like, it is so cheesy, but it takes me back to this time in my life where like it was the most romantic, cutest, sweetest thing, you know what I mean. It's one of the quintessential rom coms to this day. It's got some witty, it's got some pithy banter. Like they do have a good rhythm because again, it is a stage play, so like the only way it's gonna work is if they kind of have a little something going. And I think they do to keep you going. There's a moment you know, it's like, but it's very I did find when I was watching it this last time it did feel like it didn't nothing happen, Like, okay, so what are they going to get together? So when is it gonna happen? And maybe it's just because we live in two thousand seventeen right now as we are recording this, I know listeners are going to keep going back to this right now. It might be two thousand, might be twenty one sixty eight right now, and this podcast has stood the test of time. It's survived the singularity certainly. Right, So, all of you machine slash robots who have human consciousness uploaded into your micro chip in your all of you guys listening out there, things were a bit different in nineteen eighty nine, right right right. There were genders, they weren't fluid, There was no spectrum. Everything was very binary, very binary. So yeah, like we mentioned, this movie is not necessarily aging, well, but I think it's also I think it's also for me to I think it's the New York with me, right, Like those cute little like pretty shots and what were like, I know that place I know that place, you know what I mean, Like, Oh, I can't wait till I'm in adult New York and I'm working around with my boyfriend and then we're doing Edish and dad the other you know, and then I have had a Jewish man who won't bring a Christmas tree into our house so that you dreamed. Let's talk about the fake orgasm scene, the famous fake orgasm. Yeah, maybe it's because Meg Ryan isn't particularly sexualized that much throughout this movie, which is a thing that I like about it. You know, a lot of movies are like, oh, we have a woman character in this better put her in a middrift top and make sure she's got giant tits and have her not say anything. Um So, at least they didn't do that to our little Meg Ryan. But for her to like fake an orgasm in a diner in like a pretty non sexy way, like she's just like I feel like she has there's something like weird guttural like yes, well it's so funny to me. Well to me? What also made no sense that her character would do that total uptight woman like her, who like I'm like, suddenly you're making orgasm sounds in public. That's the type of thing a manic pixie dream girl would do, but not like uptight, no, not her, no, Sally alright, wuld never Yeah. So I was kind of like, what are you doing? What's become of you? And then the way she just goes back to eating all smug, I'll have it cheese having And wasn't that Rob Browner's mom? Oh was it? And it's like the most famous line in the movie, Like apparently overseas it was the most popular thing to ever happen. So okay, so we have a few female characters to talk about. By the way, Jamie's still not here. We've been talking for a good how long has it been Aristotle forty minutes. Jamie, for some reason double book a thing where I think she's it's not a photo shoot, but she needs to have photos taken of her. I'm not sure she's helping out a friend. Great for her. I'm having a great time with you so far. In fact, if Jamie comes in, I'm going to be like, you know what, stay out, stay out. You missed it. We don't need Jamie, although I missed you feel like you need Jamie? Do you feel like because she's really protesting too much. You know, she's really saying how she doesn't need Jamie, which leads me to believe she needs ja Hey, there's some subtext there maybe, But so we've got Marie, which is Carrie Fisher, not mother. What did you do? The Internet is going to rip me apart. No, it's okay. So in terms of like the portrayal of the women characters in this movie, they're only ever. I mean, we'll get into this later about whether or not the movie passes the Bechtel test, but there are a number of women characters, and they do talk to each other. That's great, But the whole thing, and this is a out this what this movie is about. It's about romance. It's about hetero romantic relationships, specifically between Harry and Sally. So it makes sense that they would be talking like if women are talking, that they'd be talking about men, but only but right, and even when Sally and like her friend Marie or her friend Alice are talking every every single thing, it's just frustrating to have a portrayal of women where basically the only thing that's important to them, at least as far as we can tell, is their relationship to men, like what does Sally do for to live? Exactly? Like we see her in what looks? At one point, I'm like, are you a stewardess? She hasn't like this outfit with like a like an ask and an ascot and not a time scarf. I was like, are you a stewardess? Is like no, like you're some a business lady. She's a very nice apartments like what do you do? Right? Okay, so she is a journalist. She says she is a journalists, but we don't We don't know what kind what sort of things she covers. She did in the opening scene, she's like, I'm gonna go be a journy journalist. And then when they meet again on the plane, he's like, did you oh, you're going to be a gymnast and she said she's like a journalists and he's like, yeah, that's what I said, which is I guess a funny joke, but no, it's not sorry nor ever. But she, I guess, had a goal and set out to do it and did it. But then we don't know anything about her job. Granted, we don't know anything about the other guy, Like Harry is a political analyst or consultant or something like. I would have loved to just see anyone at their job. Right. We have Marie and Jess talk about writing, right like he gets like we talked about his work, and then of course that she loves his work. But talk you know, But then what else is anyone ever doing? Are you pursuing anything with your time? Right? It's all about getting that d'e about thirst? Yeah, totally. That scene where they're on like the double date, when they're trying to set each other up with Sally trying to set up Harry with Marie and Harry is trying to set up Sally with Jess. But Marie and Jess have it. They've got the same haircut, they can share all sorts of product. It makes sense they do have and Jamie isn't here to corroborate this. But Jamie loftist has the loftiest test or the loftest rule where the baldest woman is in charge. Carrie Fisher in this movie is thea She has the shortest hair, but I wouldn't say she's in charge. So this movie does not pass the loftest test. But that scene drives me crazy, where she's like, first of all, she says a quote that makes no sense at least to me, where she's like, restaurants are in the eighties, what to what theater is in the sixties or something right, And I'm like, what do you mean by that? She's like, I read that in at least have her be like, that's a thing that I thought on my own. And then if they have parallel thinking, then it's not so much of like a jerk off moment for him. And he's like, I wrote that and you liked what. I've never had someone quote back to me article before, oh love, So just a moment like that where like it could be more like they just have the same opinion about something, where it's actually her regurgitating and he's just like, well, I'm coming. It's so annoying that like that dynamic isn't more equal where they just like, oh, I'm a woman with my own thoughts and here's the thing that I think, and I'm a man with my own thoughts and we happen to agree on this. It's just annoying to me. And then it's just like, what does Marie do? We have no fucking idea. What does Alice do? No clue. This is what I'm talking about. What they do is thirst for men. They sit around out. My favorite Marie has a Rollo deck, which I was like, again, it's like so eighties, like the fact that there was even a physical rolodex. And then when it was like he's married, she like takes the name and just folds the corner down, like married, he's not gone from the rolodex. She believes he will be a viable option later because she's all into married men. Yeah, she's just like I gotta she probably, Yeah, she's got that system, fold the corner down. This one will just be a little harder HERX just carrying a rollods into your purse with just all your information. I just thought that was so funny. It was again of a time when that was what you did. She could have just had a date book, No, she had a physical giants that she is so funny because it lasts probably five minutes and they literally only talk about four or five different men right in the scene. But kind of harkening back to the conversation about what are these people do for a living? Specifically, it just would have been nice to have them. I mean, sure, the movie is about their relationship, but throwing a fucking few subplots about anything a career aspiration she has, or a relationship with her mom or something like that, just something where it's just not all about thirsty people trying to fuck. I want to see her or them be good at something. That's That's the other thing too, because it feels like she is like an uptight woman. They only pretty much, I don't know, they're very interior and it's kind of like, do you do anything for anybody else? Do you have any interest? Are you good at anything? Because to me, she is so type A that I need to see where that helps her anywhere? Do you know what I mean? Because I'm like, you're just like this is not serving you in life, and then you somehow then just like do a fake orgasm and a diner. So what right, Like is she an investigative journalists where she has to like go and really sort of be like, yeah, that would make sense for her character and then also like show a different side of her, show a little dimension for her. But we really only see these pretty one dimensional characters. To be fair, both the men and the women are presented is pretty yeah, So that's just sort of a problem with your writing in general. Again, sorry Nora Efron, But am I gonna write it script with my master's degree in screenwriting that shows people with a little more dimension? Yes, yes, I am excellent. I just have to get the motivation to do that. It's hard. If you can save a crane Lake bottle and refill it with three buck chuck for later, you can sit down and write in this screen like you're a motivated woman. Thank you. I really needed that, pep talk. Do you have any final thoughts about the movie, how it portrays women, anything at all? You know, as you said, though, you know, everyone is pretty much like two dimensional. They really are archetypes. For me is like comfort is the wrong word. But it's like one of those things you can always have on the background, you know what I mean, Like movies or TV shows where you're like, oh, yeah, that's happening, and then you just turn around, you're like, oh, foliage and they were like fun chunky sweaters and then you're done, you know. And those little interstitials with the couples are like my favorite thing. Someone told me recently that they're not real. They were actors, and I thought they were real couples that they interviewed, and like, if that's true that their actors, like the movies did to me so listeners they were actors. See, I assumed that she, like, you know, put out an give me old couples with fun stories. Well like none of them. Half of the couples, Like again, the woman's not talking or like they're not looking at people, Like they look so regular that I just could just be because there were eighty years old, and like if they at one point were hot, they're now eighty. No, but I'm just slight anyway. If they're actors, then I think that I mean, I think their stories, their scenes were a little too rehearsed and tidy to have been real people actually recounting real stories. Maybe the stories were real, maybe like you just roll it a few times and you edit. I mean, because Laura knows an old person knows how to repeat themselves. You know what I'm saying. They don't tell a story from like fifty years ago, sure the same way every time and tell it to you like you've never heard it before. Yeah, that is true. Not to say that all old people have hashtag people. It's not about Demendra. I'm just look, Oh my god, you can't say a word. You can't say a word anymore less dementia, more dimension. How about that Hollywood that makes no sense? I loved it. I loved it. It was great. You know, it's like restaurants are the people in the eighties with eater exactly. I know exactly what you mean when you say that. So we've checked in with Jamie. Doesn't appear as though she will make it in time to do the things we do on this episode, which is to determine whether or not it passes the Bechdel test. Rate the movie, So well, do those things without her. So let's talk about whether or not the movie passes the Bechdel test. We've already sort of hinted at a number of scenes where women are talking. I have detailed every single one. I went through and made notes about every scene where a woman talks to another woman. So I'm just gonna kind of go through each one and we'll be like, Hey, does this pass or no. So it happens right away when uh Sally talks to her friend, who we later learned is named Amanda. She's like the college friend whenever they were about to embark on their road trip. She's making out with Harry. Sally sitting in the car and she's just like and then Amanda goes, oh, hi, Sally, Sally, this is Harry Burns Harry, this is Sally. All right. That does not pass. The test's introducing a man, introducing a man, and Sally doesn't really respond to that or say anything. That's not a conversation. That one does not pass. Then the next scene is they're like on the road trip, they stop at a diner. This is when Sally orders disgusting bullshit strawberry ice cream on her again, vomiting, I'm frothing at the mouth in disgust. But you know she's being a chef salad and ambled pie on the monin I'm in privileged piggy betchles everything my way. So she's talking to the waitress ordering this, but that waitress does not have a name, and she just says, okay, yeah, he's just like they're talking about food. So if we knew the waitress's name, because they have an exchange, but because we don't the waitress's name, and that's one of the caveats of the version of the backtel test that we adhere to on the Bechtel cast. I say, it does not pass, right. So next one, the airplane scene, Sally is ordering again from a flight attendant and she's like, bloody Mary mix, do you have it? Just kidding? I barely want any of it. I went mostly tomato, like a raw tomato, muddled with a slash of soda. Get a mortar and pistol and crash up the tomato and then put some vodka in it. And that's the bloody Mary I want. So that obviously does not pass because we don't know the flight attendant's name, even though there's a tiny little bit of an interaction there. Next scene, the hilarious scene where they're at lunched Sally, Marie and Alice, And that's the one we already talked about where they talked about like six different men, literally nothing else. They don't talk about a single other. There's no other conversation topics. But Joe, the guy that Marie is trying to funk even though he's married. Alice says, some ship, it's about men, and then Marie pulls on her roll index for more men, for more men, So obviously does not pass. At least we know those characters names, I guess. And then the next scene is Sally Marie in the bookstore when Harry comes into her life again. Marie's like, my married boyfriend just but a nighty again talking about him, and then they talk about Harry and then Marie immediately runs out of the scene. Than the scene where they're on the double date. Even before that, Marie's talking about the dude who won't leave his wife, talking about a man. Then on the date they don't even talk to each other, and after the day they talk about whether or not to go home with the men. Yeah, Maria, do you mind if I do? Kind of like that scene because they're both like Harry and Sally are both like are He's in a fragile place and Sally is sad about her breakup and so maybe you don't reject them right now. And then Jess is like, I'm gonna get a cab and She's like, I'm coming with you. So that's funny that one attempted a joke. I like, Caitly will allow it, will allow it. I permit it. That we've got the wagon wheel table scene, Marie asks Sally if she likes the table. Sally does not respond she shakes her head, so there's no verbal communication there. So far we're at none of these scenes passed the test. Let's there's a few more fingers crossed. Let's see there's the party where they play pictionary. Sally's apparently not good at anything, because she sucks at drawing. Someone says, we don't know who it is, but someone's like, where's the bathroom? And Marie says, down the hall. I love these recreets. But we don't know who says that because we don't even and see her speak on screen. And then afterwards, Sally and Marie are talking about Harry's date, which, okay, right, it's not about a man. It's not about a man, but it's about the man's new girlfriend. So I'm not really sure how to handle this because she's like Emily, she's young, she makes desserts. She's Emily that Emily's famous for her dessert so you know what she does for a living, and she's successful. I didn't say anything, right, so I'm not really sure this one might be a pass because they talk about a woman. But again, if you really dig deeper, they're only talking about her because they're talking about what Harry's up to and who he's dating, so it's still sort of about him, So that one's a shrug hard to say. Let's go back to it, because this happens a few more times where Sally is at Marie's wedding dress fitting hideous, adis dress so bad? And they're talking about Harry, and then they're talking about another of Harry's new girlfriends, and then Marie says, oh, she's thin, pretty big tits basic nightmare, which, okay, why do you have to shame her for how she looks? For no reason? Why do we need to talk about women that way? We don't. I'm yelling now, it's a rant. And then they talk about her dress and she's like do you think and she's like, oh, Marie, she's so beautiful. She cries and it's literally one of the ugly and she's like, tell the truth, it's just beautiful. So I guess we'll give that one a pass, although we're talking about the dress that she's going to get married to a man in Okay, Well, I don't know about all this, but I'm gonna say that it seems like why they don't pass though, for both the like girlfriend Emily thing in the dress, thing that they're those are just moments in a larger conversation, Like so they're never having one single scene that does not include the guy is subject. Yep, that's a good point. There's a few after this. At Marie's wedding, Sally and Alice are talking and they're talking about Marie. I've never seen her so happy. Oh yeah, she's so happy. It's great. And then well, what are you going to do about you? And that's a conversation, and then a guy immediately comes and pulls Alice away, like let's dance. So I suppose again because they're talking about Marie and no men are mentioned in that comment, a man does swoop in and literally drag Alice away. Alice's husband one sort of dance says that one's also a pass question mark. Then there at the New Year's Eve party, Sally says to Marie, I'm going home, and Marie says, you'll never get a taxi, And then she turns back her conversation she's having with a dude and keeps fake laughing at his stupid joke. Take a scheduling class, Learn how to tell a fucking joke. Dude. And then later on Sally's like, I'm going to go and where He's like, but it's almost midnight, and she's like, but the thought of not kissing someone is just that to me, does not pass because she's like, I'm leaving because there's no one for me to kiss, there's no man for me to kiss. Here a failure. So of these what did I say, eight or more conversations throughout the movie between women, only like one of them is one or two of them is just like a sort of maybe kind of question mark. It's upsetting that they couldn't have done a better job with this or made it more as it was written by a woman, right, So I think that's the other issue. Although who knows how many writers out there are writing movies with the Bechdel test in mind? Well, in ninety eight nine, probably no one, because this was barely a thing back then. It's not surprising. It's just frustrating that there were so there were a bunch of conversations between women, but because they almost exclusively talk about men, or if their conversation is about a woman, it's in the context of right, So I'm gonna give it a like a barely pass. I'm gonna say no, but okayon, let's go with no, let's do it. This movie does not pass the Bechdel test the end. You heard it here first. I think we've made a good case for it not passing. So I think you really broke it down. Thank you. So let's rate the movie on our nipple scale. All right, we rate the movie on a scale of zero to five nipples. They are generally human nipples, but if you want them to be cat nipples, that's okay, to the right. We rate it based on the portrayal of men. I'm gonna give it a one. Yeah, Yeah, I mean I get it, I get it. I think I'm gonna have to agree with you for going back a portrayal. Yeah one, because and again, like this is what this movie is about. But also, there are plenty of rom coms out there where the pursuit of a romantic interest or a romantic relationship is the main plot. But there's still other things. There's other things a steak, there's subplots where the character has a career thing, a career goal, or a friendship where they don't just talk about the man like it's just because every single moment in this movie is sort of framed in how a woman is gonna try to suck a man and a man's gonna try to suck a woman and can they be friends? And no, because that's not the thing according to this movie. Even though I could name twenty men who my friends with who I don't want to have sex with, and I don't know whether or not they want to have sex with me, but probably not. I'm a wretched person, okay, lind but I think that this movie made up a rule that is horseshit and it's problematic. But anyway, do you have any final thoughts about the movie? Anything you wanna say? I mean, no, it's definitely like ruined, like a great part of my childhood for me, So I appreciate that. Thank you very much. Um really sobering, you know, but it is. It's just really great to know this there's someone else who's also disgusted by a strawberr ice cream and apple pie, So thank you for that. I cannot get over it. But Naomi, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Where can people follow you online? Holler at me on Twitter at black dress? Hell yeah, thanks for taking the time to be here. It was such a treasure to talk to you about When Harry met Sally. Our whole conversation pretty much past the actal test here today. So for us, you're talking about a movie we did. All right, thank you, Bye the Bedel Cast. It's me Caitlin and Jamie. I'm just poking my head in, poking head and poking my head and saying, hey, wait a second, I was dancing with a kid when I should have been doing the podcast. It's okay, I forgive you entirely. We've got busy lives. So we talked about when Harry met Sally, but you and I have not talked about it, So let's do that now, Okay. So I first saw When Harry Met Sally a year and a half ago, pretty recent, pretty recent, And it was at the insistence of a guy I was dating who insisted it was just my kind of movie. Turned out it wasn't, and he was not the kind of person I wanted to be spending my time with. So a lot of hard lessons learned in this journey we call life. But I hadn't seen it, but I did when I saw it, already know a lot about and really loved Nora Ephron, so I'd be like a tricky I know, I'm inclined to want to give this movie more breaks than it deserves because I love her so much. Yeah. Well, I spend a few different moments of the episode saying something mean about her writing, and then that's I mean, you're apologizing to her. Hey, speaking of goes, that was a fun one. Yeah, we actually mentioned it a bit on this episode. Hell yeah, So go back and listen. Okay, well, do what were your thoughts about the portrayal of women and Harry met Sally? Okay, I, hey, Harry, Harry is the worst. I love Billy Crystal by Harry and um Sally. I feel like, I don't think that she's a bad character, but I think she's fucked over in every conceivable way by the plot and by all the powers that be in the movie. Um, she's fucked over in every single way, and half of the time it's made out to look like they're doing her a favor when they're actually sucking her up. Can you give it an example? Well, like, okay, so one of the examples is like they set the precedent right at the top with the documentary like old couples talking and women don't even talk in half of those. It's very passive. And so we're set up at the top of like this is true love. So whoever the female counterpart is in this movie is going to be, you know, forced into that thing that they set up at the top. It's weird because it's like, Sally has a life, she has a job, she writes for like New York magazine. Right, well, we don't know. That's one of the things we talked about. We hardly know anything about her life outside of her relationship with Harry, right right, right, And it's I do I she's a professional writer of she's a journalist, but that's pretty much all we know, right, And then there's the what's the guy who's not Harry, who's also a ournalist who yes, who never shuts the funk up about his job, and so we know all about his journalism, and it's like, but we can't know, like what is Sally working on kind of journalist issue? What's her beat? Like we don't know, you know, and she's made out to be like a bitchy professional, but we barely know what she does. So that pisces me off. Even though it's like I trust that the character is doing the job and is self sufficient, but it's just like the story does not seem to care to let us into anything outside of Harry. Harry is a toxic piece of garbage. Obviously they shouldn't end up together. Well, and then then there's just like the big theme of like men and women can't be friends, which is wrong. I spent a lot of time talking about that, how it's a very like outdated, heter normative, wrong notion when I was rewatching, and then I was reading a little bit. There's a great piece that came out over five years ago now on Split Sider, by a great writer who I think is at the New Yorker. Now we know what she does. Her name is Blithe Robertson, and she's great, and she wrote this pretty comprehensive piece on a number of the reasons why it's not a feminist masterpiece. But one thing I learned from reading that was that in the original ending, Nora Fron and Rob Ryner had them just stay friends, that would have been a toxic friendship. Well, I would have liked that ending so much more because and that's another problem with Sally, for me, it's like she, the version of Sally I have in my head wouldn't end up with him. I think the version of Sally and my head would stay his friend. But even then stop answering texts after a while, ghost on him kind of fired by the movie. Well, we were talking about this kind of recently, about like how do you remove yourself from a friendship that is just like, oh, this is like a very negative thing in my life. Like that seems like the more realistic problem for them to have to deal with of Like, clearly they have a connection, they have history. I get that their friends. Even then I'm like the friendship that's got to end at some point or change because it too is very toxic. Well, like with a lot of Hollywood movies, there's a huge emphasis placed on the romantic relationship and making sure it works out, so they have to end up together at the end, and even if it doesn't make sense for the story or the characters. And I would have loved for it to have them not end up at the end because it would have proved his theory wrong because it's wrong. It's confusing to me because it's like I have to feel to keep my world afloat. I have to feel that Nora fron knew this, knew that this message is a commercial message and not true to anything, because she nor Everyone's fucking cool and she she was subtweeting before Twitter existed. She's the most passive aggressive person in the entire history of the world. But so god because she was married to Carl Bernstein of Woodward and Bernstein. He completely fucked her over, you know, cheated on her all this horrible stuff, and then she spent years just subtweeting him via very high grossing movies and like it's great and I love it. Like her, like core Tenant is that everything is copied, and so she, you know, a bit bit of a bridge burner in terms of like, well, if you fuck me over, go to the movie theater in a year and a half and you can see how much I hate you. But that to me, I'm like, that's cool. That's nor A fron in a in a crew cut lady kind of way. It was very punk rock. I didn't know that much about her, so I like, yeah, it's a great documentary. Better on if you if you can convince your little brother to give you his HBO go password check it out. That's my advice to blanket advice. Hey, you don't have a little brother too bad, get one brow up, make sure he gets an HBO Go password, and then steal it from him. Yeah, your little brother probably has student discounts that my little brother has. Well. This movie also sort of perpetuates this idea that sex is going to complicate everything in a friendship, which sure, I'm sure it does in some cases, and I'm sure in other cases it doesn't. I know this from experience where I've had friendships or like sort of butting romantic relationships where we've had sex. Mom, I've had sex before. She sorry, We're so sorry, but no. Um. I've had like you know, budding romantic situations where I have had sexual ill intercourse with that person sex and we ended up not continuing to date, but we kept as friends, like we didn't keep having sex. I have a number of people I can say this about. Also, my best friend of twelve or more years is a man who I've never had sex with. Is it because he's gay? To say it's not because he's not handsome? Because JT is so handsome. Check out his episode about Twilight Hot Babe, on the loose lookout. Yeah, it's just this movie's operating by these like very archaic standards and and and it's like, there's no excuse for it, but I'm gonna try and make one like even if they acknowledged inside of that very narrow minded ideology. But we're not saying that that no man and woman can ever be friends. But sometimes it can blow up a friendship, which is not as fun a thesis statement to make, so you can't do it. But it's like, you know, obviously we've all had friendships that have been obliterated by by making an a mean sexual intercourse. But then there's other friendships where you're just like, oh, that was weird. Let's let's go back to never doing that anymore. Spoken from life right, ripped from the pages of my own life. Hey, coming, coming from coming to don't come with your friends or do whatever you want. I mean, my most of my problems with the movie are in like the first and last ten minutes, where it sets you up to a in this very narrow minded, completely not true to reality. You know, men be these women be this, and then at the end they're like, well, in spite of men be this women be this, men be this, and women be this, and now they are fucking and it's just like, well they get married like four months later some worship. No way does that marriage work out or it does, and they're fucking miserable, like there's no way that marriage works out well in context this movie came out. What that's I guess people. I mean, people are still getting married for dumb, dumb fucking reasons today, but more so than I don't know, Yeah, I just feel like this movie it's weird because Nora Efron is everything that this movie is not communicating. I mean, I don't know a whole lot about the influence of the studio kind of thing about this movie. But you know, sometimes there's like, well they have to end up together because Hollywood. I think that's why the ending changed. Yeah, but that's still there's there's still like what they set you up with at the beginning, Like I didn't remember how weird the documentary part is like with that, you're just like, oh, women, but they're just they they're not really participants in this often not at all. Right, Uh, did we talk about Carrie Fisher at all? We did, Yes, We mostly just talked about how her entire existence is framed around the men that she's involved with, first the guy who won't leave his wife for her, and then Jess. Oh, and I had a real problem with the scene where she bonds with Jess because she read and quoted back to him something he had written. It makes no sense about theater and restaurants, and yeah, I was annoyed that, Like, it would be great if she came up with an opinion on her own and then he had also the same opinion, and that's how they bond did. But she was just like, here's the thing I'm going to say. I read it in a magazine. He's like, I wrote that in that magazine. She's like, let me come for you. Right. Everyone in this movie could be doing much better, except for Harry, who should have died at some point in Act one and then we could have experienced something less toxic. And Harry is such a horrible character, and it's not even worth discussing all the ways in which he's horrible. They're not compatible. It drives me nuts. In their where there's a woman and then there's a man near her, and they're long enough, he literally wears her down, and they're like, isn't this romantic and you're just like no. So often, you see, you have no idea why two characters like or love each other, apart from the fact that they both want to suck each other and they just happened to be near each other quite a bit. Like well, their names are in the time, so it's just so often that no time is spent developing their relationship and why they might be compatible. To me, Harry and Sally they make no sense together. They have widely different personalities and takes on life, and it makes no sense why they'd somehow be soulmates or whatever. I think Harry needs to be passed away in Act one, but I also think that, you know, realistically, it's like that's someone that you've got. He's got to find like a really like aggressive partner who will just fucking steamroll him and put him in his place, because otherwise he's just going to be an asshole all the time like he is to Sally. Sally needs someone who I don't know what is she Well, we don't know anything about it, really, so right to say, well, who she should be with. A better version of this movie would be if Harry, if they met thus the title Act one, Harry dies in a tragic choking accident. Maybe he tries some of her apple pie with strawberry ice cream on it, and he's like, oh god, it's so just and then chokes and dies. And then someone's like, I'll have what he's having. And then she's like, oh, I'm a journalist. Let me pursue this career. And then the whole movie is about her life as a journalist. I just ya trying to about her, to uncover who Deep Throat is or who the whole Nixon's I know it's not the right era, listen, but talking about Nixon is gonna be triggering for Nora Avron because she was married to Carl Bernstein. That's what I'm saying. That you got to leave Nixon out of unless unless she felt But I'm actually prepared to write what you wrote. You would know about what if she You would be great if Nora Evron hated Carl Bernstein so much that she wrote a whole screenplay that was like Nixon was good and what word of Burnsney never should have done those things that they did. Karl Bursney sucks. I'll do that for her, yeah, Pour one out for Hey, do you want to write the movie? Yeah, I'm gonna give it to I know, I know, I know, I'm gonna give it too because I love Nora Efron so much. I think that Sally has potential, like extreme potential as a character that we should know more about, and has all the you know, she's like a rough outline of a good female character with no shading or color or other art metaphors. So I'll give it to uh Carrie Fisher rest in Paradise. Her character stinks though, and like Crystal, is a toxic a piece of garbage. But boy, can the man host an oscar ceremony? I give it to They are Nora friends, dead nipples. I didn't assign my nipples to anyone. Wait, um, now is my chance? You just got the one though? Right? I gave it one nipple. It belongs to Alice, who gets almost no screen time. We barely even know who she is. Why is she even there? I mean great that there's another female character. Does she only ever talk about men? Yes? Like literally only. Also, we concluded that the movie does not pass the Bechdel tests. It doesn't. I have no argument. Yeah, I was a few scenes where I was like, well they talk about her wedding dress or they talk about I don't know. I was so like frustrated by the time, I was like, it's a head or a wedding all right, Well that has been our episode in that was when barely met Naomi, right, and then when when Jamie showed up an hour late in this one. But even though we didn't really intersect, we still had a great time. I've had a great time here today. I look forward to listening to it. Yeah, you can follow us the Betel Cast on social media at backtel Cast, on Twitter, on Instagram. And if you like our episodes, if you want to really alleviate some of our production costs for the episodes that you listen to for free, you could. If you want to donate us some money on our PayPal, it would really help us out. We'd really appreciate it. You can go to PayPal, dot me, backslash, becktel Cast. Give us a couple of dollars, give us eight thousand dollars, those are your choices. Anywhere between a couple and eight thousand would really do a lot for us. No, but we we appreciate it. Thank you to everyone who has donated to set up a recurring donation and thanks for your little notes. We've gotten a little notes from people who have been like I love the cats, keep it up. Yeah, So thank you all right, Jamie, thanks for being here. Oh my god. We'll see you next time. By