Morning Routines + Much More with Liz Plosser

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Speaker 1: Hi. This is Laura Vandercamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist, and speaker. And this is Sarah Hartunger. I'm a mother of three, a practicing physician and blogger. On the side, we are two working parents who love our careers and our families. Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about how real women manage work, family, and time for fun. From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals. We want you to get the most out of life. Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This is episode two hundred and fourteen, which is first airing in early September of twenty twenty one. I will be interviewing Liz Baker Plosser, who is the editor in chief of Women's Health magazine, on the topic of how to own your Morning. Liz has a new book out called in Fact, Own Your Morning, and she shares with us some of her wisdom and how to make our mornings better. So as longtime listeners know, Sarah is the old to own your morning kind of person. Sarah, you can tell remind people a little bit about your morning routine, but also how it's changed now that your kids are back in school. Yeah, so the personal parts that I do for me haven't changed too much. But I will briefly go through a typical morning with the caveat that I would say one out of four mornings, I just scrap it all and sleep until the last possible second because I'm tired, and I think that is just reality, all right. So normally I'm up at four forty five, which means I kind of get downstairs by just before five. I've set the coffee up the night before, so that's there, and brood, and then I basically start with reading. I usually that is when I read nonfiction. Right now, I am reading Smart but Scattered, which is about executive functioning kids. You might imagine why I'm reading that anyway, So and then I'll read for like ten fifteen minutes, and then I will do headspace for ten minutes. I usually just do their meditation of the day so I just don't have to think or anything. And then I will sit down and plan my day. I look at my planner to figure out like what's going on, and I basically write out my daily layout and figure out what my priorities are. And then I usually write a quick blog post, and then usually by that point it's right around six am, and I start my workout and I try to be done my workout by like six forty five because that is when the kids need to get up, and either Josh gets them up while I shower. It kind of depends on what's happening from there, but six forty five is when kid time begins, so I guess I have about two full hours for my own stuff, which includes my workout, and then the kid part of the morning starts. And it depends who takes the kids to school, but we do only have one drop off currently. It's either myself, Josh, or our nanny, and we've usually put that on calendar the week before so you kind of know what day it is, and we get the kids up. They're up for a total of a it's about like forty five minutes from them waking up to them leaving the house. Their uniforms are kind of out to make that easy. We give them breakfast, and that next forty five minutes as a whirlwind of poking and prodding children, and then we try to get out the door by about seven thirty five to do drop off and then I'm either dropping off on the way to work, or Josh is dropping off or our nanny. Some mornings I do have to leave earlier for work, so that changes things a little bit. But yeah, it's pretty solid, and by the way, I do almost none of these on weekends. The only exception is that if my husband is on call and I feel like I'm going to have very little time, I do try to get up and work out if I'm not overly tired. Yeah, it's an impressive morning routine two hours before the kids are up. I cannot even fathom waking up two hours before my children are up. But I would put out that you have sort of not done as much like adult me time at night then, like you don't stay up later after the kids go to bed, because that wouldn't work with waking up at four forty five am. Correct, I'm usually like asleep by like nine fifteen, nine thirty. Yeah, so that's the seven and a half hours past that you would need even to seven and a half. Yeah, that comes out exactly in fact, which is smart. As many people get the idea like, oh, I'm going to wake up bright and early, and then they don't go to bed at a time that enables them to get up bright and early, and it's just asking for trouble. Yeah, my morning routine looks nothing like that my current and has been basically for the past twenty months, not coincidentally, as I wake up with Henry and feed him and then deal with him for the first little bit, so he has got a lot better. Also, as I discuss in Our Love of the Week later, there are a great many nights where I am sleeping in the guest room so that I do not hear him. My husband is capable of sleeping through small baby noises in a way that I am not. Henry still sleeps in our closet until we move to the new house, so I am in the guest room and I can sleep all night when that happens, and Michael just doesn't wake up. But anyway, more on that in Our Love of the Week. But he usually brings to me when he does wake up in the morning, that tends to be six to six thirty. I feed Henry, play with him for a bit, hand him back to Michael seven seven fifteen, whatever point I get tired of him, and then we trade off showers. Michael's taking Henry outside with the dog to go do the dog's morning routine. Then we have breakfast with the kids, usually as they get up, in various orders depending on who has camp and who does not. But this is all going to change as I'm as this is airing. The kids are still not back in school. We don't start till September nine. Everything is going to change with that. We have three different start times, we'll have three different bus pickups. I have no idea what times those will be. We get that information later in this week when we're recording this in late August. So really my mornings will be determined by that. I assume that I will generally try to get up. I mean, I'll still wake up with her. I assume that the wake up will still be six to six thirty, get kids going a little earlier in the morning routine rather than later in the morning routine. I don't know, Sarah, is there any hope for doing anything other than baby feeding and kid getting ready during the mornings. I think it depends on what that bus schedule looks like. But I'm not sure. I mean, I was just thinking about it, like I think my need for a morning routine and your need for a morning routine are different because you are you have a more flexible work day and can incorporate some of those tasks into your regular day, whereas I most of the time really can't. Some days I can, but most of the time I can't. So that's I don't know if you need to pressure yourself, although I know this episode is all about the value of a great morning routine, so I certainly don't want to ruin any inspiration that you've gotten from that discussion. Yeah, well, now it's just that. Yeah, I mean, I've written books about how morning routines are great. People want to check out what the most successful people do before breakfast, which is a click bait title if I've ever written one. But I, yeah, it's not really happening in my life. But that's also because, as you said, I don't particularly need it. If I want to run later in the day, I generally can. I often like to run mid afternoon, not when it's ninety degrees as it is right now, but during nine ten months of the year, it's possible to run in mid afternoon and not have it be ridiculous. I can also if I wanted to meditate for ten minutes during the day. I'm sure I could meditate for ten minutes today, no one's you know, I control my own schedule and so I could could do that. And same with things like creative writing or blogging. I mean, I consider that part of my actual job, as opposed to a sideline to the job, so that can also be done during the workday, and that's probably something for many of our listeners to think about too. Like the reason to use a morning is if there are things that are important to you that life has a way of crowding out. If you do them first, you are more likely to get to them. If life isn't crowding those out for you, then there's no real reason to wake up unless you really particularly enjoy that morning quiet and want to have it to yourself. But if that's not the case, then you know, you wake up when you wake up. But Liz is definitely a morning person. We're going to hear all about her mornings, her very specific wake up that she did pre pandemic. But this is great, so we'll just get right to that interview. Well, I'm so excited to be here with Liz Plosser, who is going to talk about mornings with us. So, Liz, could you introduce yourself to our listeners. Yes, hello, Laura and everybody. My name is Liz Plosser, and I'm the editor in chief of Women Self and you are also a mom of several kids, right, Yes, I have three young children, Charlie and Lucy who are ten. They are boy girl twins, and a little guy, Georgie, who is six. Yeah. So a full house there. And so you decided to write this book called Own Your Morning, and we are a big fan of morning routines here at best of both worlds. What drew you to this topic? Yes, well, mornings have always been something special to me. I love starting the day with things that fill me up and make me feel ready to tackle all the twists and turns that are in front of me. So it's always been a bit of a personal passion. But when I started as the editor in chief of Women's Healf a little over three and a half years ago now, we introduced a franchise called Own Your Morning, where we followed a different woman every month in a page of the magazine, sort of itinerary style. She would take us through what time her morning alarm went off, what she drank or ate to fuel herself up, did she exercise or meditate, did she read a book? And our audience just loved it, loved hearing about all the different rituals and routines that women from all over the world, from all different types of professions, all different backgrounds, were doing to power themselves up for their day. So it just has taken on a life of its own over the last few years, living on our Instagram, in video series, always making an appearance and cover stories, and now it is a book that I've written. Yeah, and for our listeners should know, it's it's kind of styled like Women's Health, right, it's a book, but it's got a lot of the sort of visual appeal of Women's Health magazine as well. Yes, definitely there's a lot of like saturated happy colors. We are big fans of emojis of Women's Health, so you'll see lightning bolts and twinkling stars and musical notes, those sorts of things. But yeah, a lot of the different rubrics that pop up in our magazine and in our digital stories make appearances throughout this book. And even some of the editors of Women's Health wrote different essays throughout and a lot of the women who are luminaries in the wellness space, whether they are advisory board members to Women's Health, are just women we've featured throughout our pages make appearances as well, sharing their morning routines their essays. So it's a whole giant Women's health slash Liz LoveFest exactly. So tell us about your morning routine and how it has evolved over the years. Maybe you can tell us what you're doing currently and then give us sort of a tour of times in the past. Definitely, this is a bit of a strange time as we are preparing for fall to come. You know, it's still summer days, my children are out of school. I'm not commuting into Hearst Tower right now, which is where the Women's Health offices are. It's a little bit wonky, which I actually find to be a challenge in some ways without that structure and routine of like got to get the kids to the bus at eight o four am, got to be at my desk by nine to fifteen am. On the upside, it does allow me to sleep a little bit more since I don't have to squeeze in so so many things before you know, the tornado of getting the kids and myself out the door begins. But I'm still an early riser. I'm up most mornings by six am, partially because I love seeing the sunrise, partially because I have no choice because I have a nine month old Bernice Mountain dog puppy named Willa who is up and at him and once her walk in the morning. But my morning always begins with coffee. That makes lots of appearances in this book. And I always like to sweat in the morning, So even if it's just stretching or some yoga moves, or if it's a run or a more hardcore kettlebell kind of like weightlifting type of workout, I find that when I move my body in the morning, I am just much more confident, calm, and clear headed and ready for the rest of the day. So those are kind of my non negotiables. And I would say whether it's now or you know, rewind to pre pandemic, when my mornings were incredibly busy and I was up at five seventeen and you know, in the gym and home and showered by seven am, or even rewinding further back to when I was a kid and could barely pull my head off the pillow in the morning. My dad would often pull me out of bed on Saturday and Sunday mornings. We would go play tennis or go for a jog together. It would always end in coffee home. So yeah, those are kind of the staples of a Liz Mourning and it just the alarm clock has varied, and as I've added more children and animals to the mix, it has become a little crazier and more chaotic as the years have gone by. I was gonna say, I wonder if you could help our listeners out who are dealing with very young children right now who may wake unpredictably. Because there was a time when Liz's Morning featured infant twins, for instance, I imagine it looked a little bit different then. Yes, no, for sure. I mean, when you have babies or puppies who are getting you up at all hours, you're just in survival mode. It's constant sleep deprivation. I would say that the ethos of this book, which is very much about finding your core values and knowing what are the non negotiables that help you feel like a more fulfilled, happy human, whether that's you know, nutrition, or family time or taking time to write or meditate. I would encourage you, as challenging as it is, to build even the microist of those moments into your morning, even when you are in like oh my gosh, you know, I can barely keep my eyes open. If you know food and healthy living and nutrition are important to you, it could be as simple as having a bowl of green apples on your kitchen counter that you sort of glance at while you're up with your baby nursing him or her. If family time is super important to you, that doesn't mean you have to call your mom or your sister and have like a forty five minute long FaceTime or conversation. It could just be sending a quick text, you know, with a kissy emoji and saying I love you, I'm thinking about you, or even just giving your sleeping child a quick hug. So I'm all about making sure that you create a nod to those things that are super important to you, but don't guilt yourself or turn them into some you know, just like mammoths, huge undertaking that become overwhelming and not fun and sort of defeats the whole purpose exactly, Well, we're going to take a real quick break and we'll be right back with Liz Plosser. So I am here with Liz Plosser, who is the editor in chief of Women's Health magazine and is the author of the brand new book Own Your Morning. Are talking all about morning routines here. You said something earlier about waking up precisely at five seventeen. Back in the day before the pandemic, had a lot of people, including you, working from home, so you arrived at five seventeen somehow. Why don't you talk through the process of coming up with that time, because I think what it's getting at and the idea of how you map out the morning could be very helpful to our listeners who are trying to figure out how to make a morning schedule as well. Yes, I'm so glad you asked about five, Steve. This is a funny one. People are always so curious to know what the big deal is with five seventeen, and so it's really it's quite simple. Seven is my favorite number. I was born on April seven. Growing up playing sports, I always had a seven on the back of my basketball and soccer jerseys. Seven lucky charms hanging on necklaces and that sort of thing. And so I realized years back that putting us seven into my alarm just like felt good. You know, that number brings me so much joy and hope and good vibes. It's like, why not begin your day with a number that powers you up like that? So it's all about the energy for me. And then secondly, and this is just a psychological thing, but I firmly believe that if you set your alarm to an odd number, it makes it feel more urgent and it makes me less likely to press this snooze button. So if I set it for five fifteen or five twenty or five point thirty, I really feel like there's something just like a mental thing that would enable me to press the snooze button one more time. But there's just like an urgency and a like, okay, this is happening five point seventeen. Let's go so full disclosure, Laura, because I know you love science just as much as I do. I have yet to find a study that has looked at this carefully and confirms it. But give it a try and see if you don't agree with me. Well, I'm sure we have a lot of people who do struggle in fact with the snooze button. You mentioned that when you were a little kid, you know, didn't necessarily want to get up, So it's not that you've been a natural morning person your whole life. How can people start to get more of this sense of mourning energy and loving mornings. I think we have a lot of people who are like, well, I'm not that kind of person. My co host wakes up at four fifty every morning to do amazing things I do not voluntarily. So why didn't you talk a little bit about conquering the snooze button and sort of getting more excited about mournings. What is that tape? Yes? So I love sharing that I was not always a morning person because I feel like I'm the example of someone who can make it happen. It is a big joke in my family with my parents that I love to sleep in, And I mentioned how my dad would like knock on my door over and over saying come on, Liz Boo, time to go for you know, you said you'd hit tennis balls with me or whatever it was, and I was like, no, no, no. And I see that in my kids too. I have a couple who like to stay glued to the pillow till the last possible second, and then my little guy, Charlie is very much an early bird. So the cool thing is that you can definitely train yourself to rise earlier if that is something that's important to you. I talked to all sorts of experts for this book, and for starters, you can begin by incrementally setting your alarm clock for ten minutes earlier at a time to slowly adjust yourself to that earlier rise time. There's also a chapter in the book all about sleep, which felt kind of funny to write a book about nighttime routines because this is a morning book. But the truth is that what happens the night before that is what sets you up to have a great morning and to be able to rise early and not be exhausted and actually get up and tackle your day. So there's lots of great information about how to wind down and some different rituals and tricks that experts and women in the wellness space have put into practice in their own lives to make sure that they are ready to go the next morning. And then to your question about how to make it exciting, I mean, for me, number one is coffee. I will often think about coffee as I'm putting myself to bed the night before. So I know not everybody is into caffeine or coffee, but find something that fires you up. If it's a green smoothie that you're really excited about, or a new cereal you want to try. Maybe you're into macha or hot water with lemon, just something that you know you're excited to get up and and drink or eat. I would even take it a step further and maybe you have a really cute mug with a cute little saying on it, or picture of your kids or your nieces or nephews, something that makes you smile in the morning. Those are tiny little things, but they definitely do add up when you're groggy and you're tempted to press the snooze button. And then lastly, I would say there's a lot of science about exposing yourself to sunlight as quickly as you can, so there's a lot of benefits from that just to sort of wake up your circadian rhythm. There's also some really cool research about how the world literally looks more beautiful in sunlight. So it's not a surprise that we're all we all like ooh and awe over them and love to take pictures of them. So, yeah, get yourself a few things to look forward to, whether it's a caffeinated beverage or some a great music playlist, and then definitely some sunlight and outdoors time. And how do you wind down at night? Like what time do you go to bed? And how do you make sure that you get in bed on time? Because I know a lot of people struggle with having good intentions for going to bed on time, but then you know, it's quiet, the kids are asleep. It's like the one time you have for yourself, so it's hard to end that and go to bed. So what time do you go to bed? And how do you get yourself wound down for the evening? Yeah, you're so right, And full disclosure, I am not perfect at this by any means, but I have gotten better at it over the years and sort of think of my nighttime routine as like a superpower of mine. In many ways, I just know when it's time to go to bed that I got to get myself into the bed tucked in as quickly as possible. So for me, because I'm rising so early and I will unabashedly tell you that I am one of those people who wants to sleep eight hours a night. I know many people who are like thriving on four or five hours. They're amazing, They defy science and all the odds. That is not me. Most people need about seven. Quite honestly, I would prefer if I could get nine. So for me, that means that I'm tucking myself into bed by nine point thirty in the evening. I recently have become much better at logging off from my phone. So as tempting as it is to scroll Instagram one last time or do you know, one last read through Apple News to see the headlines of the day, I have learned that that stuff like hypes me up and gets my heart rate going. You know, you can wait till tomorrow, after you've gotten through your morning routine to see what the latest is with the coronavirus or the political world, or climate change, or you know whatever TV show that you're interested in right now and want to look up. So try your hardest to not get into that stuff and actually pick up a print book if possible, to wind down with when you're in your bed, and then just to back up a quick second. I also what I have what I call a sleep hygiene routine, which is I like to take a hot shower before bed, just like a rents off. I think of it as like rinsing the day off of my body, if you want to take it a step further. And I didn't get into this in the book though maybe my second book, but I do have a ritual of looking in the mirror and sort of thinking about the powerful interactions I had that day with different people, whether positive or negative or even not necessarily one of the other, and taking a moment to like close my eyes, think of that person, thank them for that interaction, and then say, I'm letting that go. And I know this sounds a little new agy, but for me, it kind of it just helps clean off my side of the street before bed and feel like, you know, I don't have people, places and things swirling around, things left unsaid. I'm just sort of letting go, letting the good stuff, the bad stuff, the whatever stuff, letting it all go so that I can relax into my bed at night. That is awesome. It's probably something we should all look into doing. But we're also you know, we love mornings here but we're also very curious always about people with big, demanding careers, a lot of responsibilities, and who do have larger families like you do. Any strategies that you have found particularly useful or helpful, like help you with sanity, Like I'm just imagining over the last year, you're attempting to run a magazine remotely from while your kids are at home. You know, how did you get through that? What strategies helped you come out of it? Sounding still fairly positive to me? Oh, this is this is an amazing question. I don't know how we all got through it. It has been a wild adventure, right, But no, I mean, first of all, I feel incredibly, incredibly fortunate because I have an amazing partner, my husband Matt. He also has a big, full time job. And when we're both working remote from our apartment in Brooklyn, you know, our desks are like three feet apart and our kids are running around in our zoom backgrounds. But it's like a teamwork thing, honestly that we're like right now, he is on a call for his work and I'm chatting with you, and so it's sort of a divide and conquer, And hey, I have this really important thing happening at this time. Can you be the one to manage the kids, because we're both on calls right now. Now we've put our kids into action and the older ones are sort of taking watch over the little guy and our puppy. But yeah, I mean it's a big adventure every day. That's the only way I can describe it. I think one benefit, and something that I never could have imagined pre pandemic, is being more open about my family life with my coworkers and my managers and even external people I work with at Women's Health. You know, they see my puppy running around in the background, or my kids. I vividly remember when my son George came up and was pulling on me to approve him more roadblocks time while I was like leading this incredibly important meeting with the president of my company. So I feel grateful to have had those peaks into my coworkers and colleagues universes. And I don't think I could have made this all happen unless I had just gotten what's the word, I had just embraced that that, like, you know what, I'm not hiding the fact that I have a crazy, chaotic life happening in the background, and thank goodness, because I don't think I could have survived it without that. And then the last thing I'll say is, you know, I mentioned this a few minutes back, but it truly does go back to my morning. When I do the things that set me up to have a good day, such as getting in a workout, having some quiet time to meditate and journal for a few minutes, I can just handle all the craziness that undoubtedly will unfold throughout the day. So that is why, especially as where many of us are starting to go back to our offices, this ball and school is gearing up again. I'm hoping that this book is kind of hitting at the perfect time as people are like, oh my goodness, they are you know, it's a new season. It's kind of like the new year of our professional and academic careers. It's a great time to really think hard about our mornings and how can I make that work harder for me so that I can manage the big job and the big family and all the other unknowns that will pop up throughout the day. Yes, it could be a year with a lot of unknowns. We'll see how how schooling happens and hopefully keeps happening and doesn't stop happening for random weeks here and there. We're all going back, Yes, exactly, well, Lizen. We always end with what we call our love of the week, which is something that's you know, working really well for us right now. And I can go first to give you a minute or two to think just anything that's you know you're enjoying, could be book, podcast, song, product thing. For me, it's a concept which is, you know, laugh at this. Sleeping in the guest room. So my toddler sleeps in the master bedroom closet it and miraculously I seem to be the one who hears him first if he makes noise in the middle of the night, and so when I go sleep in another room he sleeped. If he wakes up, my husband either just like won't hear him for the first few minutes and then he'll usually quiet himself back town, whereas you know I would have heard him. So I'm like, hey, if I go sleep in the guest room, I actually sleep all night. So that has been making my mornings a lot better lately. How about you? That is genius, Laura. I love that I am as you. As you're speaking, I'm my wheels are turning, and I'm trying to imagine how we could hack that for our dog Willa, who is our version of a toga, because you're the one who hears me as well. Right, what is it I wish I had, like the male ability to sleep? Yeah, yeah, it's not in our DNA. Noing that I will add one that I've been doing for about the past month, so surprise, surprise, it's a little bonus mourning ritual that I've added. I write in the book about the power of meditation and give some journaling prompts and some meditation prompts, And one I didn't include in the book, which I just learned and I'm loving, is to start the day. When I begin that, when I open up my journal and do my writing, to pick three adjectives that are positive that I believe describe me, but more importantly, that I want to bring to life that day. So you know, it could be because of a big presentation I have later that day. Maybe I want power or strength or those types of things. Maybe something hard is happening, like I'm about to do a travel day with my family, so maybe i want patience or flexibility, or it could be curiosity or willingness. You know, the sky's the limit. And it's a bit of a riff on setting an intention for the day, but I find just picking three positive adjectives is very simple. It takes a minute to think about you know what describes me, but more you know what do I want to exemplify that day? And it has been a total game changer in my life. Well, that was awesome. Just a side note for our listeners. Liz and I were talking while she was off in a cabin in the woods. Her internet had a few issues, although the recording is great. Thank you Squadcast for creating local tracks so we don't have the connection issues that we've had with some other recording software. But before Liz was cut off, I mean she she did want to share one more thing with our listeners, which is that you can find her book Own Your Morning on Amazon and in bookstores today which is September seven, when this is first airing. You can connect with Women's Health that's her magazine, at Women's healthmag dot com and also at Women's Health Mag on all social platforms. You can also connect with Liz personally. She really wanted people to do that at Liz Ploser so l I Z P L O S S E R. And if you tag own your morning, she's going to be really excited and share your morning winds. So please take advantage of that and connect with Liz because she is lovely. So now moving to our question. This is from a listener who says that she's paid there's a lot of attention paid, in particular by me to the benefits of working from home, but our listener dislikes it. She knows that some people don't feel that way. Obviously, there's a lot of people would like to keep working from home, even post pandemic, but she really wants to go back to work. In person, she finds herself distracted by being at home, even when she has childcare or an empty house. She brings her own lunch to the office and snacks less when the kitchen isn't four feet from her desk. She does a run commute she goes to the office, so it's like she's got this exercise built in really great mutine. She likes dressing up and going to different neighborhoods. She also likes feeling as though work and home wives are separate, and during the pandemic, she has felt like she is constantly toggling back and forth. So do you guys want to talk a little bit about the benefits of coming back to the office. Are there benefits to in person work? So, Sarah, you have mixed feelings on this right you talk about You know, though, the more that I have done a mix, the more that I am convinced I would not want to be one hundred percent remote. I do feel that I if I'm by myself too many days in a row it work, I don't know. I crave the structure and the imposed structure, and the seeing of other people and the leaving the house. So I one hundred percent get what you're saying for me right now, the sweet spot is usually three days two to three days at work, although lately it's been more three and two days at home. And I also, yeah, you mentioned that you'd even dislike it when the kids are when the house is empty. I really dislike it when the house is not empty because I just find it incredibly distracting. I think you have to look for ways to bring some of those things that separate your work life and also bring those rituals you enjoy into remote work if you're forced to say at home for longer, such as either working another location replicating your run commute, maybe you're going to run to a park and back or something like that. You could do a like a walking meeting with somebody where you're both on a phone and you walk together, so you feel like you have that togetherness and that being out and about kind of a feeling. So I think there are ways to bring some of the aspects of the benefits of being in the office to the home environment so you can get the best of both worlds. Sorry I had to, but if you're just looking for us, for someone to say, yes, you're right, Working remotely is not the end all be all for everyone. I am right there with you, so I see you. Yeah. I mean, there's obviously some nice aspects of the office, and we often feel more professional if we are put together and if we have gone somewhere creating that separation. So you know, I think a lot of people will discover that a hybrid approach, which is the best of both worlds. That you know, there are upsides to seeing your colleagues in person. There are certainly nice things about having that structured environment five days a week maybe overkill for a great many jobs, and so finding a way to do it. Sarah's doing three days in two days home really could be a great option for many people, and ideally, coming out of the pandemic, a lot of organizations will move to something like that. But we shall see how this plays out. And if you want to go in five days a week beause I guess this listener wants to, then she can be there by herself two days a week where all other people are gone. I don't know. We'll see how that plays out. I was also just going to mention since she mentioned separation, that shut down rituals of some kind can help. So think about what steps you might want to just officially open and close your workday. Mine is very unelaborate right now. I tend to just slam, not slam, but shut my laptop and scream down the stairs I'm gone. So it could be simple as that, but maybe you want something more elaborate to quick All right, Well, this has been best of both worlds. I have been interviewing Liz Baker Plasar on how to own your morning. We will be back with more next week. On how to make work and life fit together. Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us next time for more on making work and life work together.