MADDIE HAMANN: PACHA / BURNING MAN TO BUCKWHEAT

[SPEAKER_01]: Welcome everybody to another episode of the fell into food podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: I am your host, Chef Jeff Fell.
[SPEAKER_01]: My guest today, Maddie Heyman.
[SPEAKER_01]: She is a PhD trained ocean scientist to earn food product co-founder and mom.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maddie left academia to help build Pacha, a two ingredient sprouted buckwheat brand, rooted in regenerative agriculture and radical ingredient simplicity.
[SPEAKER_01]: She now speaks candidly about career pivots, identity shifts, mental load, and building a life in business
[SPEAKER_01]: welcome.
[SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for having me and happy to be here.
[SPEAKER_01]: So you've got a pretty wild resume, civil engineering, oceanography PhD, art installations, burning man, and now bread.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my first question, when you look back, what's the common thread that connects all of that?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, definitely for me, I have I've always been guided by a connection to the earth and wanting to care for the
[SPEAKER_00]: I grew up in the Midwest, so I didn't have a ton of education in the realm of climate science.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was kind of like we learned about global warming in like sophomore year of high school and then kind of you know.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was always something that peaked my attention and I went into civil engineering in part because my grandfather was a civil engineer but also because I knew that civil engineering
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, and just kind of as I moved through the different phases of my life, I realized like, okay, I want to work on, I want to work on climate science, okay, I want to work on climate solutions.
[SPEAKER_00]: And part of the reason that I pivoted into food was because as I was studying for my PhD, I realized that
[SPEAKER_00]: we know a lot about climate science actually like there's still so much to learn but um we know enough to be making changes that we are not making and uh so I wanted to be part of a solution yeah awesome was there version of yourself that didn't make it through that transition you know what did you have to leave behind going from academia over to food
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So this was another part of my identity.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I don't, I wasn't as a young person.
[SPEAKER_00]: I always, I just envisioned myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: being in a job, like working a position and being with my family and the evening is kind of like having that rhythm that's more like, yeah, just nine to five.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because that's what my parents did and most of the people in my life that I was exposed to as a young person
[SPEAKER_00]: When I met my husband, both of his parents actually are entrepreneurs of their own kind, and he just had a totally different mindset about the the marriage of work and life that happens when you're when you are an entrepreneur.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like
[SPEAKER_00]: uh there's not a separation between the two in the way that there is when you're you know at work versus at home.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's definitely something that I left behind and and I would say it was like
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a growth for me that felt like, oh, I don't have to just work the jobs that like other people are making and creating out in the world like I can create like I can actually create the world that I want.
[SPEAKER_00]: Bye.
[SPEAKER_00]: writing my own business.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, how did it change your sense of self-worth?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was the same way going like same thing, thinking nine to five, corporate job, come home, but you know you did all that and then you stepped away.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how did that change your sense of self-worth after you left it?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's a really interesting question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I haven't thought about that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would definitely say that my sense of self-worth has gone up dramatically.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, like full disclosure, I as a student and into grad school, I actually had like a very severe eating disorder,
[SPEAKER_00]: a little bit purposeless and a little bit, um, yeah, just like, like it was easy to hide and so I did, um, like I just hid parts of myself from other people and, um, yeah, becoming a business owner and becoming a mom, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: has really shifted the way that I feel like every single thing I do is important.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like every single thing I do has an impact on my family, my community and my and my business is that I'm running so it's just like there's no more like yeah working working for somebody else working it in a job where you're like well like I can kind of not be working right now and it doesn't really matter like someone will do this stuff it's like nope I'm the one who's got to do it and like it really makes me feel.
[SPEAKER_00]: like every moment at my time is valuable.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's so is and the accountability on yourself that you put, again, having sub-sub-very similar and now it's, if I don't provide or work or put in systems until you could get a business big enough, it's all on you at the end of the day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that's, you know, I know that's what you guys are working on is building this brand.
[SPEAKER_01]: But during your time in academia, like was there a specific time moment that you just knew that you were going to jump into like creating a brand or go into food or or is it just kind of a slow drift along the path.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, like kind of both, um, so I would say that there were, there was a time, it was probably about three years into my, uh, tenure as a PhD student, um, so about halfway.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I just like, I was just looking at the path before me, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, what it is to be a scientist and be an academia and be a professor or a researcher or, um, you know, primary investigator.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was just like, I don't really think this is like the thing for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know what the thing is.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at that same time, I was also investigating going into more like a communication science communications or something at the intersection of art and science, which was like a lot of my burning band experience was related to that art science intersection.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but then like, as far as starting a food brand, that kind, it kind of crept up on me.
[SPEAKER_00]: So our brand, um, we started in 2020, um, with some of the planning, like the, the initial phases of getting together, the founding team, um, in 2019,
[SPEAKER_00]: And I had, I was, I mean, Adam and I, my co-founder Adam Heiner, we were maybe a year into our relationship, which is like a little bit early in my opinion to like jump off the cliff and start a brand together.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, why not why not why not and so it was kind of like we were baking the bread in our community house and The bread had like changed my life from my relationship to Bread format food like it was the only kind of bread I can eat and it feels amazing and it was like
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it just had done such amazing things for me, um, that when Adam started working on, okay, I'm going to like, he had founded multiple other brands, including bootstraft, which is the most recent, most recent project.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: He had kind of hired himself out of positions and was like, all right, I'm gonna do the next thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And people were asking us to make the bread for events and for their person, you know, like, hey, can you make me a loaf?
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'll buy it from you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it just felt like the world was asking for this bread to come forward.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he was at a moment where he was like, okay, I'm ready to take on another project.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think I'm gonna do this bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: I wasn't like in the very initial,
[SPEAKER_00]: stages of planning, but I was working my job.
[SPEAKER_00]: At that point, I was a postdoc.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was working for the Navy actually doing classified submarine research.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm not super aligned with my values.
[SPEAKER_00]: At some point, I was standing in my kitchen with him.
[SPEAKER_00]: And like...
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know what the larger context of the conversation was, but I just kind of like, I remember just blurting out, like, I want to work on the bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to do this with you.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I kind of kind of took me off guard, and I was like, oh, okay, yeah, that's actually, that's true.
[SPEAKER_00]: I want to do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it is really aligned with what I wear, why I want my energy to go in my life.
[SPEAKER_00]: And it was scary.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was also like holy crap.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like I just got a Ph.D.
[SPEAKER_00]: I just spent all this time learning this thing that has nothing to do with bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay, or starting a CPG business like yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, that moment kind of it happened and Adam also thought that it was a little early to start a brand with his girlfriend, but yeah, he also was like, I think in that moment could feel the trust of just like that I think there's
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't say no to her, but I feel like the, all the, all the training, all the academia, I think, I feel like that teaches you like to get ready, right, because it teaches structure and that things have to get done.
[SPEAKER_01]: It just is that inner gut feeling of, this isn't right.
[SPEAKER_01]: This isn't where I'm supposed to be and it takes sometimes to find what that is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I went through that same progression of,
[SPEAKER_01]: I hit this position and I hit that position and I was like, is this it?
[SPEAKER_01]: Is this this is all I meant to do for the rest for the next 30, 40 years?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was like, I don't I don't think I could do that for another 40 years and you really start to turn the wheels of what's going to make me feel fulfilled and want to continue to have a purpose, you know, through through everything, you know, with the name Hacha, you know, what does that name mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: And why does that feel right for this brand?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we, the name Pacha comes from South America, the person who originally gave us the recipe, which has changed dramatically.
[SPEAKER_00]: Since he handed it off to us, he's from Argentina.
[SPEAKER_00]: And the Pacha comes from the Inken language and essentially like,
[SPEAKER_00]: It really, it means like everything that exists, like everything that creates our reality, but a more simplistic way of looking at that is like our Earth, like everything that we have here on our planet, and for us,
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, starting this CPG brand, like my reason for starting the CPG brand was not because I was like, I'm gonna make up a bunch of money like selling a product.
[SPEAKER_00]: I was on board because our mission is totally to help farmers transition to regenerative practices.
[SPEAKER_00]: So to be able to sequester carbon and
[SPEAKER_00]: help with water cycles and water retention and build healthy ecosystems through our farm land and our farming practices and just like returning to a way of stewarding the planet so that the planet can be here for us and can continue to be like patcha for us.
[SPEAKER_00]: a fun fact though, um, later down the line I actually did a podcast interview with somebody who's from India and he asked me, do you know what, um, Pacham means in Sanskrit?
[SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, no, he was like, oh, I totally thought that you would know this because it's just crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: It means to digest.
[SPEAKER_00]: really.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, which is just wild because because like as I mentioned, like I couldn't eat any other type of gluten free bread before Adam shared this recipe with me and it is like it is just it's sprouted, it's fermented, it's like it feels so good and the gut it really is truly like the most digestible food and yeah it was just like wow okay I guess we picked the right name
[SPEAKER_01]: it's it's funny how things again the universe has a way of coming back around to tell you that it almost validates the decision that you made or even with little things of naming it can always be starting a brand what do we what what is the name and what is the logo and what are you know all the corporate types stuff that you
[SPEAKER_01]: You kind of have to have, you want to have, but in reality, you just want to create and build, but if you don't put some of that foundation down, down the road, it turns into a nightmare because now it's a scale and to get a brand out to actually make a business out of it can be very very difficult.
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about a little bit about it.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's it's for minute buckwheat and Cecil which to me when I saw that I was like how are they making bread out of that so maybe let's talk about the fermentation process as I'm big.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean more on the meat side, but I do a lot of fermentation aging, but how does it pertain with buckwheat and how does how does the recipe evolve when there's two ingredients.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, so the recipe actually, the original recipe had sunflower flacks and buckwheat and the people who were making it were also doing like they were more like seasoned breads.
[SPEAKER_00]: They had like a care way bread and they had like an herb bread.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like it almost felt more like a meal when you like I'm going to prepare meatloaf, which is a terrible comparison to make, but like just kind of that vibe of like, wow, this is like this could be like,
[SPEAKER_00]: the main part of my meal here.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we ended up evolving it.
[SPEAKER_00]: We thought in the beginning, we thought that you needed the flacks as the binder.
[SPEAKER_00]: There's so many gluten-free or vegan recipes that use flacks as a binding agent.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: In during COVID, we were having really, like, I mean, just supply chain issues were rampant.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so we were doing some testing and some researching, just to see if it would be possible to simplify our supply chain.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, we realize that the buckwheat itself is self-binding.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it makes that same kind of like new salagines compound that the flacks makes.
[SPEAKER_00]: That will hold things together.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, we always fermented it from the beginning.
[SPEAKER_00]: It was always a sourdough, but it's a wild yeast.
[SPEAKER_00]: We actually don't add any culture yeast to our product because we use whole buckwheat grotes.
[SPEAKER_00]: The first thing we do is we sprout the, we soak and sprout the buckwheat.
[SPEAKER_00]: Just like they're not, not a lot of sprout.
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't want a lot of sprout otherwise it tastes like grass.
[SPEAKER_00]: don't do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and uh, and then that gets blended.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the grotes themselves have wild east on them, that that accomplish the fermentation.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, and I, yeah, like, I don't think you can do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think one of the things that happens when you grind the any grain into a flower
[SPEAKER_00]: too dramatically shifted for them to survive in the same numbers.
[SPEAKER_00]: So using the whole growth is key.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, so then we ferment for 24 hours and that's not, we ferment from somewhere between 12 to 24 hours depending on the temperature and our facility.
[SPEAKER_00]: And
[SPEAKER_00]: flavor.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I got some samples of it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the first thing I noticed, the texture was spot on, which that was probably the most surprising thing to me, because usually it's the texture that is one of the most difficult things to kind of really dial in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, wow, this really has like a...
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't want to use sort of dense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It had the right consistency.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how I'll explain it when I tried it and I was like, wow, this is interesting and different than what I was expecting.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was not expecting what I got out of it and then reading it was like toast it, you know, do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I could double toast on it.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, just it held shape.
[SPEAKER_01]: held together.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: It really just surprised me when I got it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the other thing that I noticed was, and this is probably going to go back into the sustainability piece of it, but the the container that it's in is cardboard.
[SPEAKER_01]: The little tie around the the to keep it
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: How does that even function on a day-to-day basis knowing that it's made out of like that type of recycling, I'm assuming a recycled material?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so actually all of our packaging is 100% home compostable.
[SPEAKER_00]: So the clip and the trade at the bread are in are also recyclable, but you could also throw them in your compost.
[SPEAKER_00]: The composable packaging, that's another, it's just like a foundational piece of our business where we were like, if we're going to start a CBG brand.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the biggest issues with packaged goods is waste and just like wrappers and plastic and multi layer foils going into our landfills and we're like we don't really want to be a part of that so.
[SPEAKER_00]: We have a commitment to use the very best cutting ahead of compostable technology that we can use for our product.
[SPEAKER_00]: One thing that makes it possible, I think, for us to use that compostable film, is that our bread actually is different and has a higher moisture content than most.
[SPEAKER_00]: white bread, glutinous breads, or even gluten-free breads that are trying to mimic white breads, has a higher moisture content.
[SPEAKER_00]: So it actually is kind of good for the bread to breathe a little bit.
[SPEAKER_00]: It lasts longer once you open the package up.
[SPEAKER_00]: And one of the challenges with compostable films is that they don't have a
[SPEAKER_00]: airtight vapor layer most of the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: So products that are trying to stay crispy like crackers, they can get stale and composable packaging.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but our bread looks just works.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was just a really cool like touch of of your whole story as I started digging in that you're living breathing it and putting it to all facets of the product not just the thing that you're eating, but every piece that touches it.
[SPEAKER_01]: Back you said like COVID was kind of a nightmare and I know you guys were pointed like kind of groceries retail to walk me through what you guys had to do to pivot and like what that looks like from the inside.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, COVID times.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we started, um, we started the business.
[SPEAKER_00]: We started in like 300 square foot test kitchen and we had signed the lease for that space before the COVID things started happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, uh, we were, we were on the hook and we were like, all right.
[SPEAKER_00]: And some ways starting in COVID was good because, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we just, all the problems were just there from the beginning rather than not being there and then all of a sudden having all this wild change to like interrupt the train that was moving down the tracks and just like, oh, okay, I guess we're climbing a mountain, let's build a different train.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we in the beginning, what was most challenging was that we, we were intending to go into retail and I mean, we're a frozen bread brand like,
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, not exactly the ideal product for shipping out in a direct consumer fashion, but we at the time like a lot of the buyers and the grocery stores were just not reviewing the doors like they had so many things to deal with that they just kept pushing their reviews back.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think the other thing we ran into is that the reviews that we did submit for we weren't slicing our bread in part because of our size like it was just like we didn't have the equipment to slice the bread and so we would send it out as whole those people would thought and slice it themselves.
[SPEAKER_00]: and yeah, the grocery buyers were just like, I don't understand this.
[SPEAKER_00]: So what ended up happening was that we had a friend of ours who had a lot of experience with e-commerce.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think he sold like green screens or something, so not food, but e-commerce in general, he was like, this might sound weird, but I think that your product is like different enough, and like there's a
[SPEAKER_00]: dedicated customer pool that's available and I think it could work for e-commerce and so we're like well it's not working for retail so let's give it a shot.
[SPEAKER_00]: Why not?
[SPEAKER_00]: and yeah, that's what ended up happening.
[SPEAKER_00]: We launched on, um, we launched a Shopify website and I think 2022 or early 2022 and grew from, you know, a couple thousand dollars and a month
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and, um, yeah, grew our primary customer base, like we've had a lot of exposure just through running meta ads and, um, yeah, people found our brand and we'll wanted allergen free gluten bread that was made for real food.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's you'd be surprised how many people need because of dietary restrictions or want it for their lifestyle.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you go and you try to find the options, but everyone has, I'd say it corporatized, a lot of the things that are supposed to be healthy for you, and no longer, you know, you look at the ingredients and you're like, hey, wait, that now has like four more things.
[SPEAKER_01]: I won't mention a brand that just sold, but there's been claims of
[SPEAKER_01]: products that are you know they look at it and they're like this was originally five ingredients now it's nine and there's other things and and if you know anything about food those are fillers they're they're there to cheap in the product make it easier produced longer preservatives keep the shelf life longer um and so it just makes it hard to keep something going when again it gets corporatized in that space you know did the customers the amount of customers
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, did that was the the the need for it so heavy that you were able to like approach a whole food to be like, you need to have this and then like what what does that look like and what do you have to be willing to like give up to get that shelf space at a whole food.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, actually with whole foods what happened it did definitely help that we had a brand and we like in our conversation with the buyer we were like, yeah, you know, we're selling like.
[SPEAKER_00]: $100,000 with a bread a month online like people do want this.
[SPEAKER_00]: But the thing actually that sold us to Whole Foods was our compostable packaging.
[SPEAKER_01]: Really?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we had a meeting.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, most brands will start, we'll go region by region, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: They'll like open up California, like, um,
[SPEAKER_00]: And then do kind of a slow rollout of the brand.
[SPEAKER_00]: We went straight to global and in our meeting with the buyer who said, yes, to Pacha, we spent 10 minutes talking about the compostful packaging.
[SPEAKER_00]: She was like, well, all right, so lay it out for me.
[SPEAKER_00]: I have 10 other brands in my frozen bread set who say that they can't do compostful packaging.
[SPEAKER_00]: and you say it works and like so what's what's the deal here and yeah so we we've went through like how it's all working and what we're doing and the compostful packaging is more expensive and like yeah it's if you're going to change you're packaging over from traditional like petrol based plastic to biobased like you're going
[SPEAKER_00]: then most brands are not either not able or not willing to do that, um, but because it was just something that was built into our brand DNA, like we were just figuring out how to make it work with that and the the whole food spires.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like this is what this is what we need brands to be doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And so yeah, bringing you in.
[SPEAKER_01]: And you also had said that getting into it, you, the original goal wasn't to make a bazillion dollars, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think you already had that pre, like in your back of your head, like, I'm not here to become a billionaire, so my margins, you're willing to stick to who you are, the roots of what the brand was and what you're trying to accomplish.
[SPEAKER_01]: more so than just hate say let's make our increase our margins let's really do what's right and then ultimately led you to old foods because if you didn't you probably wouldn't have gotten in to the deal right if you were who you who you guys were yeah yeah and I mean in some ways it's like
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it's not that we don't want it like we do want to build a healthy business that's like profitable and that someone would want to buy like we yeah that's we want our we want the the business to be healthy at the same time it's it feels like it's a it's a long game and like
[SPEAKER_00]: For me, I see that what is needed from CPG and order for CPG and our like national scale food system to survive is like, yeah, like we have to move towards sustainable regenerative practices, like otherwise it's just going to collapse.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that the consumer awareness, like in this very moment, having composable packaging and regenerative ingredients is like a nice bonus.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's not what is changing consumer behavior right now.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I, but I believe that in the future, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: It is going to it's going to be the thing that makes her break friends, and I think that as people learn more and as people are just looking out of the world and realizing like Holy crap like we're gonna enter another dust bowl This is where we're going they're that like yeah
[SPEAKER_00]: having a brand that's already rooted in doing what's right is going to it does create that consumer loyalty and the like that long game of.
[SPEAKER_00]: this this brand is built to survive what's what's coming for us.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do we prevent the word regenerative becoming another buzzword?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I I also work with a farm in that space.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're they're on on the beef side, but they they do it the right way.
[SPEAKER_01]: Like said water conservation.
[SPEAKER_01]: soil conservation, carbon sequestering, like those they actually do it right, and I'm so afraid that it's going to get commercialized and that you're going to have to pay for that term, like a lot of other things that, oh, it's organic or it's this.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when you look at some of the practices, you're like, well, that's great, but you're really not doing a whole lot.
[SPEAKER_01]: You pay a lot of money for a term.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how do we keep the word regenerative?
[SPEAKER_01]: What it actually is in means and not into a corporate or paid term.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, that's a great question because like on the on the one hand, it's like, okay, if we come up with like a really a really good definition of what regenerative has to be and then we regulate around that it like it gets to that similar.
[SPEAKER_00]: situation with organic where it's like, okay, it's highly regulated.
[SPEAKER_00]: People are in some ways like in order to meet the standards.
[SPEAKER_00]: They do things that are actually not as good for the soil or your system because they're like, well, for going to be organic, and that's why it's so.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you want to avoid that at the same time.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you want to avoid the situation where it's just like completely green washed were like,
[SPEAKER_00]: yeah, people say a natural.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, this is natural.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, that doesn't mean, that doesn't make sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, but, and at the same, like, there's all of the definitions and regulation side of things, and then there's also just like the, the, the real need for
[SPEAKER_00]: farmers to be able to make the transition like now, like a year ago, ideally, actually, ten years ago.
[SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, I think for a lot of farmers, 99% of the farmland in the United States is not organic.
[SPEAKER_00]: So, to have organic as a baseline for regenerative,
[SPEAKER_00]: One, I don't really think is the right thing because of what organic actually is, but it, you know, it just prevents 99% of farmers from eating, even having the ability to start working towards farming like practices that are better for the planet.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the biggest dangers are like the biggest.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, one of the, one of the cesspools that I can see or foresee happening would be around like pesticide use and the term regenerative like right now since it's unregulated, you can still use pesticides on a regenerative farm like a farm that's doing 99% of the practices and like
[SPEAKER_00]: not telling, not rotating animals into the field, they're taking care of the soil, but then at the end of the season, they can spray pesticides.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that that particular practice is one that will really road consumer trust in the term regenerative.
[SPEAKER_00]: So,
[SPEAKER_00]: answer your question.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't have the answer.
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think anybody actually has the answer to your question.
[SPEAKER_00]: What I would say is that like to me, it feels really important that the term regenerative.
[SPEAKER_00]: not be so, so narrowly defined that people that farmers can't do the right thing to wiggle around and meet a standard.
[SPEAKER_00]: And at the same time, I think there are some really important pieces that should be required for a regenerative certification for one.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would think that like pesticide and herbicide use should be disallowed for any kind of regenerative certification.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the other pieces like on the side of the retailers, there are retailers right now, who are very selective and I wanted to say discerning, they they review closely any verbage around regenerative language.
[SPEAKER_00]: So like at Whole Foods, for example, you have to have.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the qualifying certifications standards in order to put the word regenerative on the front of your pack.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then any language that's on any side of your packaging that's refers to regenerative is reviewed by a team for approval.
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_00]: having, having retailers as gatekeepers is actually like a really, really, really good thing because any brand that wants to get on the shelf set Whole Foods has to be impeccable with their packaging.
[SPEAKER_00]: But other brands like there are other,
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't really think we're in danger of this at this very moment, but there are other brands who are probably not targeting Whole Foods as one of their first customers that they're going straight to target or Walmart who don't have those same review standards.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that's where we could run into problems where like, okay, there's a, um, I don't know, let's just say, like Pepsi is going to launch a healthy soda and they're just going to slap the word regenerative
[SPEAKER_00]: every 7-11 in the country.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then people are starting to be like, oh, we're tired of.
[SPEAKER_00]: What is this?
[SPEAKER_00]: What is this thing?
[SPEAKER_00]: And they're associating it with something that's like, not healthy, not good for the planet.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's in the start to take away from what the whole practice and purpose is supposed to be.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think that it's a right step.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't know that they had like a review committee.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think it allows for the farmer or the the person trying to build
[SPEAKER_01]: To really like pitch their case like here's what we're doing here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Here's where we're at and here's what we're continuing to do because you can't just like flip the switch overnight and just go 100% regenerative You know if you especially if you already have a farm and some of your practices it takes time to build the soil up and those those crop covers and and the way that you're doing it and it takes a little bit of science Well, not a little bit a lot of bit of science to do that and understand it
[SPEAKER_01]: to allow the soil to get better.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay, what do you need to plant to actually pull carbon?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is your product that you're harvesting?
[SPEAKER_01]: What is it actually?
[SPEAKER_01]: What are the negatives that are coming from that product, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you think of like cattle, belching in and farting, you know, that's all you hear is methamethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymethymeth
[SPEAKER_01]: reduce those amounts, you know, so farmers are actually introducing red kelp into their diet because it actually helps with just the natural thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's little things like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like, you're never going to make a cow not fart or not burp, but how do we put a practice in place that starts to reduce the negatives of the practices that are or the negatives that happen with agriculture as a whole.
[SPEAKER_01]: And
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know, maybe it does give some leeway to some of these brands to start wanting to because maybe, you know, review team says, hey, if you can get this in this in place, then we can start knowing that you're going to end here, but have like a, I don't know some sort of timeline that says, by this point, you have to otherwise we're going to pull your product because then it forces the farmer or the the brand, the CPG brand to actually hold true to what they say, you know, how many times do you hear, we have this standard in place and we'll be there by 2030.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then 20 30 hits and they're like, we push that goal to 20 40 and it just keeps going and going and going because there's no actual accountability from for anyone and I hate to say it that consumer at the end of the day in today's world is they're just trying to survive.
[SPEAKER_01]: They want to put food on the table for their their their kids.
[SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, or their family, and it just makes it really, really hard sometimes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I do like hearing that there's committees or groups, because again, I don't want to become a commercialized term that you hear or get like eggs, you know, you hear free range, passure, you know, and it's like, what do these terms even mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: And then you get to scale and then what does pasture raise even mean?
[SPEAKER_01]: That they have access to a pasture, but doesn't mean they've been actually going to a pasture.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it versus a farmer, let's say an omnifarmer, who he called him free range, but you know they're probably doing a better job of letting those chickens kind of just roam and be free.
[SPEAKER_01]: And yes, they might have to supplement some of the diet because, you know, when you have that many chickens, they're just going to eat up the ground and you got to have a lot of land to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: So they may need to supplement in other ways that is still not terrible.
[SPEAKER_01]: But that's my soapbox on
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, totally.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm kind of shifting over to like back to like the business side.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you said you founded your business with your partner.
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, what is running a business founding a business with your partner look like, you know, especially when it's been a hard day.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there's a this side and there's the personal side.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Um, well, I will just say like,
[SPEAKER_00]: my husband is amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we've both done a lot of a lot of personal work.
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the most foundational pieces of us being able to function as a founder couple is that...
[SPEAKER_00]: we the like when something is happening when there's something going wrong or not is planned or just that doesn't feel good.
[SPEAKER_00]: The the inclination is to first reflect on how we are contributing to that like
[SPEAKER_00]: rather than first being like, oh my god, Adam's doing this thing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like, I'm so annoyed to first reflect on my piece and whether it is actually something that I just need to resolve within myself.
[SPEAKER_00]: And he does the same.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then if it is actually something that like, it's like actually no,
[SPEAKER_00]: I, it didn't feel good that this happened, then we actually like, we set up a container to address that specifically, not just like in like a random meeting, you know, like.
[SPEAKER_00]: When we meet, we have very clear like boundaries and containers for the types of conversations that we're having.
[SPEAKER_00]: I would like to say that we have really clear boundaries and containers around all talk about business, but that is not true.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, driving out to the desert, talking about work.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, that's happening for sure.
[SPEAKER_00]: The other piece, I think, is just like we have a lot of trust that the other one is really, really capable, and so that if they are doing something, they're
[SPEAKER_00]: There's a good reason for it, like neither one of us is just doing things without having some forethought and some
[SPEAKER_00]: some thought about like what the implications of our actions could be.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, a lot of trust and a lot of self reflection is really supportive in that journey.
[SPEAKER_00]: But aside from that, I love working with my husband like he is so capable and
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we both definitely have like a go-getter temperament in like we just have a lot of capacity to like make things happen and
[SPEAKER_00]: It's look at timelines and make sure that everything is on course and so yeah it helps that we're not like really really different and how we approach things.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah that could make things a little little little little difficult if there was a very you know black and white on the spectrum of making getting decisions done.
[SPEAKER_01]: You talk openly about mental load and decision fatigue.
[SPEAKER_01]: What's the one thing that finally broke the cycle for you or at least made it more manageable?
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: I've got a really good answer for this.
[SPEAKER_00]: I recently actually I started calendaring my to-dos.
[SPEAKER_00]: which means that I so I have a to-do list, which I have always had and it is never going to get done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, the thing is I now call that a to-be scheduled list.
[SPEAKER_00]: And once a week I go into my go into my calendar and my to-do list and I prioritize the most important things that need to be done.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I put them, I have time block them, and I say, I think this is going to take an hour and I'm going to do it at this time, and my whole week is planned out, including like, when I'm cooking, when I'm driving, when I'm going to appointments, when I'm having meetings, when I'm going to meditate in the morning, like it's all in my calendar, and people look at it and they're like, oh my god, like,
[SPEAKER_00]: shoot me.
[SPEAKER_00]: That looks so overwhelming and it looks overwhelming but the thing is now I don't have to think about what I should be doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I made a plan for myself and I'd just need to execute it and that like the the the stress of going in and looking at that infinite to do list,
[SPEAKER_00]: 50 times a day like it gets to you and yeah it has like I can it has lightened my mental load.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, so much.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's so helpful.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I would recommend it to anyone who is running any type of business, but especially a high.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you handle, though, when shit comes up happens, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: Life happens, stuff happens.
[SPEAKER_01]: How do you handle, though, when you have time blocks at for certain things?
[SPEAKER_01]: And something that has to be addressed comes up.
[SPEAKER_01]: Does it just go kind of back to the top of the
[SPEAKER_01]: You just moved the time.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know.
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't tap them, so I'm just going to move it.
[SPEAKER_00]: And if I need to move it into the next week when I reprioritize my weekly thing, I will.
[SPEAKER_00]: The plan can change and it does frequently.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it's just, it's like having those things in my calendar and at all times being like, OK, the plan is laid out.
[SPEAKER_00]: and not need to go into that to do list.
[SPEAKER_01]: And how well do you handle, you know, keeping distractions out because I know that's one thing that pops up for me and it's something I've been trying to work on is something comes through or, you know, the phone goes off and it's trying to keep it put away or if you put it on due not to disturb, you know, how well can you keep yourself staying on task and not being distracted from things that are just noise.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, again, like I feel like the calendaring piece helps with that because it's like I have I have things in my calendar that are like respond to emails and text messages like so when I turn I always have my phone on do not disturb unless I'm like expecting an important call that's not coming at a specific time.
[SPEAKER_00]: always undo not disturb and then like, yeah, if I notice something that comes through my phone, like cool, I'll get to that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I think the other, yeah, I used to feel like I had to look at my text messages as soon as they came through because it was like,
[SPEAKER_00]: what's priority right now?
[SPEAKER_00]: Maybe this text message is priority, and then it was just so easy to get distracted by that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Whereas now, I'm like, I can look at my calendar and I'm like, oh, the thing I'm supposed to be doing, right, that's priority.
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna do that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Rather than look at what's coming through my phone because I have a different time than I'm gonna do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I mean, it makes total sense.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just something that I still struggle with trying to, again, my last previous, you know, corporate life was always like, at the needs and the mercies of whoever needed something.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I felt like that was my worth.
[SPEAKER_01]: And like, if I don't respond, even though I, you know, when you look back, it's like that wasn't important or that wasn't a do or die.
[SPEAKER_01]: And there were times where there was other really pressing things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it was like, that just had to kind of get pushed off.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then,
[SPEAKER_01]: either resolved itself or it really wasn't that big of a deal, but it's just something that I think a lot of people struggle with that both corporate and, you know, people who have their own businesses of not being distracted because there's just so many ways in today's society to get distracted on anything, you know, family life, whatever it is, but staying focused on what you need to get done.
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: So a couple of kind of final questions.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maddie, what are you most afraid of getting wrong?
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, yeah, I guess the thing that comes up for me is just like, I'm afraid that we are wrong about
[SPEAKER_00]: how we can grow the business and the strategy that we're, you know, like whether the strategy that we are pursuing is actually the one that's going to make the business totally successful.
[SPEAKER_00]: Because, yeah, there's worlds where it could just fail and all the farmers that are growing buckwheat for us and like all the supply chain that we built is just like, oh okay,
[SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I'm worried, I'm worried about choosing the right strategy and worried that I'm going to get around.
[SPEAKER_01]: Great answer.
[SPEAKER_01]: Where's Pasha headed?
[SPEAKER_01]: And what do you need the food world to understand about what you're building?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Pasha is headed.
[SPEAKER_00]: deeply into the natural channel, like full penetration of those who are shopping at your natural stores, your sprouts, your whole foods, your independence.
[SPEAKER_00]: And then like we have a few products that we are planning to launch into conventional.
[SPEAKER_00]: And I think what we need the food world to understand
[SPEAKER_00]: We are we're designing a product that meets the needs of American consumers as its primary objective, right?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I think the other thing that I need the world that I need the food world to realize is that.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, or I just need people to realize in general is that the some of the problems that they're experiencing and they're brought to you are related to their diets, they're figuring it out.
[SPEAKER_00]: So.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think AI is helping slowly.
[SPEAKER_01]: People say if they put in their medical history, it's starting to uncover some stuff for people, and they realize, oh, you mean if I didn't drink Coke every day that I wouldn't feel a certain way?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you probably wouldn't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, people tell me all the time, like, what do you eat?
[SPEAKER_01]: And they tell me, and I instantly, I'm like, well, I could tell you probably right now why you feel the way you feel.
[SPEAKER_01]: And the times that you eat and your sleep site, like all the just physiological things and biological things of a person's body, it's just fascinating to me,
[SPEAKER_01]: 7 o'clock.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't want to eat because I'm I'm in bed by 930.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I need my body to be able to process and digest my caffeine consumption is cut off by one PM because I know if I have something and it slips time to time if I have something at three or four Forget about the sleep cycle because my circadian rhythm is completely thrown off and it's just crazy when you
[SPEAKER_01]: When you can stick to something, you can start to actually tell what is affecting you by just the simple insert.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of like what a lot of moms do, right?
[SPEAKER_01]: When they're trying to figure out if their kid has a natural reaction when they're feeding, what you slowly introduce, you pull out and then you slowly introduce and then you figure out what is causing them to react a certain way or be fussy.
[SPEAKER_01]: Um, and I think the, if an adult would take a little bit more time to kind of food journal, if you will, and realize what they're eating, they would be hard pressed to figure out what's going on, and then they wouldn't need necessarily medications and treatments that, that everyone thinks they need to be on.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's just, it's crazy.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: You guys are what?
[SPEAKER_00]: Good.
[SPEAKER_00]: Sorry, I was going to.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's like, I, another, like, level is like, you can heal your body if you're putting the right things into it.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you have the ability.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's right there.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's at your fingertips.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just what you select.
[SPEAKER_01]: You guys are launching tortillas, correct?
[SPEAKER_01]: Or they already currently out?
[SPEAKER_00]: That's correct.
[SPEAKER_00]: They should, yep, they hit the shelves in West Coast target super centers, like last week.
[SPEAKER_00]: And they will be hitting the shelves at moms on the East Coast.
[SPEAKER_00]: And we're working on getting other accounts to carry the tortillas ASAP.
[SPEAKER_01]: And are those are those in the frozen section too?
[SPEAKER_01]: Because I'm a very similar.
[SPEAKER_00]: No, those would ideally be in the refrigerated set most natural food stores have like a refrigerated tortilla selection.
[SPEAKER_00]: So they would be in there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Every once in a while they put those in the frozen section.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like their whole tortilla set is in the frozen section.
[SPEAKER_00]: The loss of these are not great.
[SPEAKER_00]: So yeah, refrigerated section.
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome love it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I want to I want to be able to get some of those because I would love to be able.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm a tortilla for you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So tortillas or are my jam.
[SPEAKER_00]: Oh, they're so good too, like, like we just added.
[SPEAKER_00]: So we added Celium husk to the tortilla.
[SPEAKER_00]: So those are buckwheat sea salt and Celium husk, which is like an amazing fiber supplement.
[SPEAKER_00]: But it also just like it create, like makes them so pliable and durable.
[SPEAKER_00]: Like it is not quite the stretch factor of a gluten
[SPEAKER_00]: There's hearty and the flavor is just amazing.
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, you've had the bread so you know it's very similar about like a nutty sourdough.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's they're so good.
[SPEAKER_01]: Awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maddy word of people go hit them up with all the socials.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they want to check out what you guys are doing.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, you can follow us on Instagram at LivePatcha and then our website, you can purchase product and read more about our company LivePatcha.com and yeah, those are the best places.
[SPEAKER_01]: awesome.
[SPEAKER_01]: Maddie, this has been a phenomenal conversation.
[SPEAKER_01]: I can't thank you enough for taking the time to come on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I know is a busy founder and mom trying to get through the day to take some time out to have this conversation isn't always the easiest so I really appreciate you you taking that time.
[SPEAKER_01]: And for everybody listening we'll put all this into the show notes where to find the products, all those great things because I said I did get a chance to try it myself
[SPEAKER_01]: it will surprise you.
[SPEAKER_01]: I let me just say that it will surprise you.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we'll put on a Joe notes and be sure to always like, follow, subscribe, all those great things for the podcast.
[SPEAKER_01]: And until next time, we'll catch you on the Sunday side.