Raw with Vanessa Guerrero

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Speaker 1: On the dol Cast, the questions asked if movies have women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef and best start changing it with the bec del Cast. So, Kitlyn, we're basically podcast sisters, right, Oh yeah, of course. Okay, So, uh, I can tell you anything, right, Yeah, that's what podcast sisters are to each other. Okay, so I have to tell you that the other night when you give me that Brazilian I did eat your finger? Are we still cool? I do remember my finger getting cut off. I know you like came to and you're like issiating my finger, and I was like, you're dreaming, but I did do it, and I just kind of wanted to like check into your people are feeling about that. I'm glad you felt comfortable enough divulging that to me. Sisters, right, yeah, yeah, of course. Now is my turn to tell you that I didn't eat your finger, but I ate the finger and the other body parts of a lot of people. You know what, I actually forgive you because that makes me feel better about what I did, which is not comparatively as I think we're good. Our mom probably did it. I'm assuming it's somewhere in the bloodline. Like I'm not even worried about it. I love you, Love you too, Jamie Enjoyed Jail. Welcome to the Bechtel Cast, Jamie Lawfus. My name is Caitlin Durante and this is our show in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Using the Bechtel test simply is a jumping off point, that being, of course, a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes called the Bechtel Wallace test, that requires, for our purposes, two people of any marginalized gender with names have to speak to each other about something other than a man. Ideally that conversation is meaningful to the narrative right, which you would think would be hard to do. For many movies, it is hard to do, but guess what, Baby, Today we're covering a movie where it is not hard to do, because there is so much to talk about in this movie between characters who are not men, and they're doing all manner of fucked up, funked up stuff. I am so excited to be where first of all, I wanted to just give us kind of a little ribbon and say. The movie today is from Frost. It is a Lesma to movie. So I felt like a genius watching this movie because we are socially conditioned to think that French equals sophisticated. I felt very chic today as I was preparing for this episode, and I could not be more excited to talk about the movie. It is tens Raw, directed by Julia Ducorno, and we have an incredible returning guest who brought this movie to us, and I could not be more grateful. Yes, she is a host of Kicking and Screaming podcast. She will soon be on Behind the Monsters on Shutter and do you remember her from our episodes on Maide in Manhattan and Atomic Blonde. It's Vanessa Guerrero. Yeah, wellcome back, welcome back. Thank you for freaking us this movie. Thank you for watching this movie. Because pitching to people a movie that is like minutes of Cannibalism, is it the easiest thing to do in the world. And the fact that we're all this hype to talk about it, I am thrilled, so excited. I also would argue that when a woman eats another woman's finger, that does pass the Bechdel test. That's true. I mean that is an intimate communication of the mind and body. I mean it's kind of transcends the Bechtel cast in many ways. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, So let's talk. Let's get get into it. It's a it's a pretty recent movie, came out five years ago. Vanessa. What is your connection to this movie? How did it come into your life? Um? So the way, I have a lot of fondness for this movie because it also kind of started with like my relationship and my husband who I'm married to now. So it's one of like the weirder First Few Days movies. But basically when we had met, I was working on an article about sex and horror and how for some people kind of an entryway into like safely figuring out for themselves like something off kilter that they might be into. And at the time we met as friends, and he came over and recommended a movie called um Southbound, and it's an anthology series, but one of it includes like a medical horror moment um and it has a lot of like specifically, it's like a lot of like sound and sensation. And I proceeded to get too breathy on a couch next to a man that I just brought into my house for the first time that we were definitely not dating, like embarrassingly breathy about it, literally blushing talking about it now, and uh, he was super chill about it. It was just like, that's weird. I just learned something that I like right there. And immediately he was like, have you seen the movie Raw, because he's basically like knocking on people's doors, being like, this is my Lord and xavior Julia Dick right now, and he's like, this is so like perfect for the piece that you're working on. And so he'd been waiting for her to watch it with me, and we finally watched it together, and then the entire time I kept looking at him and I was like, this is the closest thing that has ever felt both terrifying and right to like my experiences with sexual awakening, especially like growing up in a very repressed household in school system, so like this became so valuable. Like the last time I felt like this watching a movie was American Psycho, when I was like, Oh, this is what it looks like when a woman does something terrifying. This is what it looks like when a woman like examines something like this and like this where the intimacies changed based on who's behind the camera. The last time I felt that way was like seeing Mary har And do something. And now I'm just like all about whatever Julia Dickerno does. She could she could just do like a weird TikTok accidentally, and I'm like perfect art cinema. Yeah, we were talking about the new movie of hers that is either already has come out depending on when this episode drops or is about to come out. It's like the releases like right around this time. Uh, we're not sure of the pronunciation. It could be. We kept saying type tannic pane. Yeah, we're not exactly sure, but it is her new movie and it looks pretty cool. It really does. Yeah, yeah, this this movie is I just I'm so thrilled about it. I had never I had heard of this movie. I had heard of Julia Ducornet, and it was just like not something that I and this is I feel like, especially in the past year or so, this has been like changing pretty rapidly. But I never thought of myself as a horror fan or someone who is naturally drawn to horror. But seeing a movie like this. It is absolutely a horror movie, but it's also like a coming of age movie, which is very much something that give almost any coming of age movie a fair shot. And I was pleasantly taken off guard by how much I loved this movie from almost every alex. I'm just I'm so excited to talk about it. I'm so glad that it exists, and I'm so glad that directors like Julia Ducarno are working at such a high level. I wish that like this had I was happy that. I mean, this movie is pretty accessible, like you can watch it for free a number of places to be I believe is one of the ones. Yeah, yeah, I was. I for one was a to be head for this. I watched five tied commercials in a row and then continue to watch raw whatever by any means, but I hope that this, as time goes on, becomes like a horror classic that is like not out of left field to say that you've seen because I just thought it was wonderful. Thank you Vanessa for bringing it. I truly can't thank you enough. It's so good. I also love that you specifically brought like coming of age because horror is such a perfect vehicle for that, Like you've seen it used with both like um, I mean as literal as like werewolf stuff where it's like suddenly I'm getting hair everywhere and it's awkward to like more horrifying, visceral things. And I feel like we have this collective amnesia about how awful and gross and terrifying but also exhilarating puberty was, and oftentimes when we like examine it, it's usually with like a ukulele and like butterfly knesses, and it's it's something that kind of takes away this like feral nature that we all kind of adopt as we're learning all of the weird things our bodies do and how we want to interact with other people. And I feel like there truly should be more horror coming of age things, because I cannot tell you how many times I'd like pull down my pants or look in the mirror and be like what is as a teenager? And it's the scariest thing I've ever seen. My life was a horror movie once a month when I got my period, because I've never been in more pain than every time I get my period. Yeah, So I grew up. I didn't get sex said in school, and so I thought I was shipping myself for a while because it feels like you do because your internal organs are just like flexing and unflexing. If you pull down your pants and it's brown. I just felt like it was a reasonable I'm like, that's so bizarre because I don't remember shipping myself, but I guess that that's just what's been happening. They don't prepare us for clots, No, they don't at all prepare you for blood clots or the fact that some days you might just have a jellyfish in your panties. Like they were like, it's just like a little bit of blood every month, and we are all wholly unprepared for the first time it gets nearly. And also it's like, if you don't have someone on the ground to let you know what's going on, all you see on TV is it's blue. It's not even the color is done weird blue stuff onto pads, and it's like, in what world is this helpful? This kool aid jammer fell into your panties? What do you do? Like cool? Not to pull out the kool Aid jammer reference, but that was at thirteen, I knew more about kool Aid Jammer than I did about my own body. Um good grief. Um. I had seen this movie before a couple of years ago. I remember it. It has gotten kind of more and more buzz since it came out, so I wanted to say I saw it in like en ish. I was surprised by how much I remember it, because usually if I see a movie once and then a few years passed, it's I might as well have never seen the movie because I simply remember nothing. But as I was rewatching it for this episode, I was like, oh, yeah, and I remember that, and I remember that I remember, was like so much had made an impression. I was like, oh cool, there's a lot of perspectives you don't see enough of so that when you do see it, it's just in your brain forever. Yeah, it really like leaves a lasting impression. So yeah, I was excited to rewatch it for this and yeah, we've got a lot to talk about. By that same token, though, I Jamie, we were talking about this where we're like, I like kind of don't. I didn't write down any notes for this because I'm just like, yeah, it was good. It was handled well, end of note, and it really is. It's like I feel like it's rare to find a movie that so like sucks you in. Yeah. That I found it hard to like pause to take note because I was like, I don't really want I really want to. I'm having too much fun. It's very fluid. There aren't really any moments that like slow down or like maybe that the pacing is like, oh here, I can like look at my phone for a second. Because I think this is just like another benefit of having a woman behind the camera. The main character has always looked at with like curiosity instead of like judgment or like what is this small delicate creature? Uh, to where it feels like a very intense nature documentary about a person. Yeah, yeah, Oh my gosh. I felt like there was a lot of camera choices that were so I mean, we're so like every time you see Justine, she's hunched over and if she's like she looks like she's the subject of a nature documentary. The entire movie. It's. Yeah, the first time you see like Alexis in the intro and she like runs into the street and you know, causes the car accident. She sprints like a dog or an animal that's like running into traffic. She's like on all fours and it's so deliberate, Like it feels like the way an animal hunts for something and you see her from far away, and it does have that like far enough removed thing to where by stripping all of these characters of humanity and treating them like animals, it just makes it feel all the more human it was. Yeah, this movie in particular just feels like you can just feel that it is like women perceiving other women. Yes, like in a way that it doesn't feel like it's bopping you over the head with a mallet, but it just like intuitively feels that way. Like if I saw this movie knew nothing about it would be like this movie had to have been made by someone who intuitively understood Justine's experience and like where she would be coming from, because I don't know, like you can just feel it. I had that thought when I watched the peeing standing up scene. Yeah, oh my gosh, because I knew never in a million years would a dude ever include something like that. And that's like a very specific kind of camaraderie that would be considered gross that like men would be like that's too gross, and they don't really understand how down to be disgusting. We are like quote unquote disgusting, but like I also like deeply like as somebody that like has a vagina wanted to learn how to pee standing up so bad when because I was like, it's cool, like anyone of the penis can just like run off and then like piss in the bushes and then come back and keep playing. I want to pee standing up. So like when I saw that scene, it felt so close to like similar experiences of like other girls being like you want to see what this does? That it like I was like, I've never seen anything like this that scene. What I really enjoyed that scene, and I thought that the way that it was shot was perfect. It's like I don't know, I mean, and for a movie that is about cannibal ism, it feels bizarre to be like, oh, you know, it didn't feel exploitatively shot at all, but it really didn't like it was. It felt like you got what you needed there, which is the sisterhood at and also just like how many people are you going to be that comfortable enough around to be like, let's peace standing up even though it's going to be messy. I don't know. I every time I pee it sounds like a helicopter is landing and it's like all over the place. But I certainly did try at different points in my life. I never realized how powerful my stream is until I pee outside, Like I'm so used to hearing it in the bowl, and then the first time it hits dirt, I'm like, I'm doing that. If you're just like, wow, I'm so let's bring that strength to other areas of my body and life. We're going to get those muscles everywhere, because my god, that's forceful. I'm just like, this could knock someone out. But I don't know who knows. Wow. Anyways, when we're talking about that's so excited about talking about peeing outside forceful peas, Yeah, I love a good forceful pe Uh. Let me let me just not on the recap mp in take a little bite out of the recap. Shall we look at her? Go? Um? So, the movie starts on an open road where we see a woman running into the road and seems to be deliberately causing a car to crash into a tree, and then we see her approach the crash, and then it cuts to a young woman, Justine. She's dining with her parents. We learned that they are all strict vegetarians. Then they drop her off at her first day of veterinary school, and the first night there, she and the other like freshman students get hazed by the upperclassmen and they're brought to this big party. There she meets her roommate Adrian. Adrian Audrian, I don't know the French France there, I was. I It made me laugh a little bit, and we talked about we we recorded an episode earlier today about Revenge of the Nerds, so there's been this like related but deeply unrelated through line of hazing to what we've been talking about all day. But I just thought it was so like, not unbelievable, because it's like I certainly haven't been to veterinary school, but I was like, wow, is hazing that intense among vets? Fuck? Yeah, it seems intense. Where I was just like, I don't know anything about the world, so I'm just going to have to believe you. I guess I know. I was looking for I literally I was seeking out vet insight because I was just like, is it that intense. They're like, are you Are you all okay? Should I bring my cocker spaniel to the likes of you if you're dumping blood on each other? Like, we don't know? Yeah, hard to say, Yeah, I could not speak from experience, believe it or not. Wait, Caitlin, are you not a betted yourself to me? I did not go to a French veterinary school. This is the foremost French veterinary feminist podcast. So that's interesting. I don't have a master's degree in veterinary study then from France University where you can only work on French horses and French dogs. Yes, very very they're they're wearing hats. It's nice. Um, okay. So Justine's older sister, Alex also goes to this school. She's an upper classman or an upper class woman. I did write that in my recap, by the way, in case anyone was curious. That was brave of you to say thank you. They catch up with each other if we find out that their parents also went to this vet school. They kind of don't totally see eye to eye on things, but they're excited to see each other. And then Justine starts classes the hazing continues throughout the week. They all have to eat a raw rabbit kidney as part of their hazing. Are the vets of the world doing this like, it's not It didn't bump me at all. I was. I'm just genuinely curious if there's hazing in veterinary school. Vet's sound off in the comments. I didn't go to college, so that's what I'm assuming all colleges like I went to loser college, and so I don't know anyway. So she's presented with having to eat this raw rabbit kidney, and Justine is like, I can't eat that. I'm a vegetarian. But her sister is like, no, just eat it, be cool, So Justine does. Uh. Then she seems to have a reaction to having eaten the rabbit kidney. She develops a severe rash all over her body. She goes to see a doctor about it, who tells her it's probably food poisoning and that she should fast for a day. But Justine's like, well, except I'm very hungry. And then we see her steal a burger patty from the dining hall and we're like, wait a minute, is isn't she a vegetarian, what's going on? And then her roommate Adrian takes Justine off campus to like eat her first meat meal. On the way, they see the scene of that car accident from the beginning of the movie. They passed that, and then they get their food, and justin gas station food representation, I feel like there's not enough gas station food in movies for how prevalent it is in the real world. I mean, as a frequenter of both sheets and Wahwas in my days in Pennsylvania, Wow Mayra vastown over here at the Wahwa. I grew up in mostly sheets territory, so I've been to many more sheets than Wahwas. But Vanessa, what was your what was your go to gas station food? Growing up? Man, I didn't really experience like full on gas like actual like meal meals that weren't chip bags until I was like an adult in Los Angeles. But many of the ones by my high school would do like literally open any chip and you can just dump it under the chili and cheese, and so those with hot cheetos and pickled Hallo pengos and then a bunch of Chilian cheese, and then I would just eat it with chop sticks, and now I wonder why I have ulcers all the time. Oh, I'm sure this is completely unrelated. No, that's completely unrelated. It has to be. But it was like the popular like get that and then walk home from school. And then because we also like went to a private school, we were like dying to eat garbage by the time school got out. So then we were just like double down on those. Hell yeah, Jamie, what's your go to meal or experience? It's improved over time, but in uh, at least in I don't even know if it's all of New England, but there's Cumberland Farms is the gas station of note and you go to Compies, you get a slushy, you get they have really good hot dogs, which is like part part of my early adoption to hot dogs was Cumbies hot dogs. They actually kept them sort of hot, which felt very chic and novel because they did cost seventy nine cents. So I love Cumbies food to this day. I was getting like a lot of like they because I feel like the gas stations in the last ten years have been trying to like make their food at least appear more healthy. Because now when I go to combies, when I visit home, they're like, would you like a grilled chicken wrap? I was like, there's no way, there's no way. But it's like hot dog as like, I don't come here for the grilled chicken wrap, but I appreciate a for effort. Anyways, anyway, gas station hot dogs and same thing. So she we see her hungrily eat a bunch of meat, and then later back at her dorm, we see her eat some raw chicken. We're like, Wow, something's really happening to Justine. And then she coughs up a bunch of her own hair that she chewed on, which was gross. Got that scene. I loved the audio mixing on that scene had me skin crawling the entire time. Yeah, there's a I got really into this. Not into but I read a book about It's. I guess it's a type of like ulcer tumor like thing I'm not a doctor, called a teratoma that can form inside of people. I read a memoir of someone who had something like this that her body just started acting ways that she didn't recognize, and it's just this kind of like it sounds like a horror movie. It is a combination of like hair and half grown teeth and just like my aunt had one of those. Yes, yeah, like and it's like it's filled the teeth. Yeah, it's a hairball full of teeth that grows inside of people. And it's like it is I don't know, it's very it's very visually fast and he but it also was like so under discussed that when it happens to someone, they're like, this doesn't sound real, Like how was what? Yeah, it reminded me of that Tara Toomas. If you want to fun google rabbit hole, Wow is your Did it work out okay for your aunt? And it got removed and everything? Yeah, she got that one removed. And then I was just like obsessed with Tara Toomas. I didn't know that's what it, but like the idea of like hair and stuff like that growing and like that's seen especially yes nails. And then I had a hat a pe teacher where she grew an extra road teeth in her mouth. She said that that I can't remember. She said that her doctor said it was like she had like a pregnancy or something and like the extra hormones went a little crazy before like she like lost the baby without realizing that she did, because she wasn't even trying to get pregnant, and so she just like had a quick influx of hormones and then she just woke up one day and found like three little teeth coming out of like the bottom of her mouth, like behind her bottom jaw. And the second I heard that, I like checked my mouth in the mirror every day and I was just like, do I have teeth now? And like do you never really think about how much body horror happens just because of hormones? Right? Like It's just I love body horror so much and it's there couldn't be more grounds for it to exist, Like it is such a real thing. It's wow. Yeah, my birth control makes my mouth bleed spontaneously. Oh, I love that. I didn't know that it was a thing until one day I just tasted copper and they're like, yeah, some people protest their own. Birth control just makes their mouth, their gums just start bleeding bleeding. My birth control made my libido go away for like five years. That was that was body horror. That is I've ever heard it. Bodies are horrible and that is where rock comes in. Oh, does it want to tell you that, right, And I'm just pulling a hairball like it's a shower in your throat. God. Yeah, everyone listening, google Taratoma if you want to have some wild dreams for the next two to three months. Pass hard, pass for me. Um. Okay. So, then Justine hangs out with her sister Alex. They bond a bit. This is when we get I think the peeing standing up scene. Alex also gives Justine a bikini wax, which goes wrong. Scissors have to be involved, and then there's a mishap with the scissors which leads to one of Alex's fingers getting cut off. Alex passes out, and as Justine waits for the paramedics to arrive, she starts to lick the blood off of the severed finger and then whips it daisy. She eats the finger. Also, the music that's happening in this scene is mesmerizing. Yeah. Yeah, the score for this movie is so good. Yeah. There's an actual sex scene later, and it's not played the same like it was. It was weirdly sensual the way she like shot the eating of the finger more than like actual sex scenes later to where it was like This is the awakening moment. This is the moment like in most movies where a girl was like I feel tingles, and now it's this, except she's eating a finger. That feeling when you eat a finger for the first time. You know who can relate that? Yeah, that whole scene, The way that that scene is executed on every level was like in the hands of someone less competent would have been So I mean, I guess it still is can't be in a way, but it doesn't feel like you're so like you know that she's probably going to eat the finger, but it still feels so shocking when she does it because the actress is doing such an incredible job. That direction is so good. The reaction when the sister wakes up is so fucked like it's just so good. The score like, yeah, I was literally like pulling my sheets the entire time because I knew it was going to happen. But like, she very much does the thing where it's like taking the little bites and like the little tastes before and you're like, I know she's gonna fucking do it, but the tension, I know, it's so good, it's so good. So yeah, then then Alex wakes up and sees Justine eating her finger and gives her this like, what the funk are you doing? Look? And then we cat to the hospital. The parents have shown up, Alex's taken care of, and then she blames her missing finger on their dog Quickie, having eaten it, even though she knows it was Justine. Because Alex has a secret of her own. I know. At first, I was like, Alex, you're just gonna kill a dog over this, that's me, But then but she has her reasons. It's because she's protecting this family secret where she has also developed a taste for human flesh. It turns out she was the woman at the beginning of the movie who had caused that car crash, because she does this again and brings Justine with her, and she she causes another car to crash and then kind of goes over to eat the people. But Justine's like, no, that this is not what I want for myself and she storms off um. But then she notices how hungry and or horny, but mostly hungry she is for her roommate Adrian, and later at a party she's making out with this guy, she bites part of his lip off, he freaks out about it, and then she hooks up with Adrian and the whole time she's trying to bite at him and eat him, and he's like stop that. So then she bites her own arm and draws blood by gnawing on her own arm. Then Justine goes to this party and she gets really dry sunk, and she kind of again like surprise kisses, slash bites, surprise bites a few people, and then Alex finds her and takes her out of the situation. And then the next day at class, everyone's looking at Justine all weird, and it turns out the night before someone had taken a video of Alex kind of taunting a very drunk Justine with a cadaver. That's one way to describe that video that that video is so dark and again so well composed because it's so fucked up to watch, because Alex is basically like, here, eat it, eat the dead body, and Justine, who was like kind of too drunk to really do anything, is still like trying to like lunge at it and bite it and like eat it, but she's like just way too drunk to do anything. But there's a whole crowd of people watching this, and now everyone thinks that Justine is a is a week, so she confronts Alex about having done this to her, and they get in this big fight on campus. They're biting at each other, Alex bite a chunk out of Justine's face, but eventually they stopped fighting and then they kind of make up and Alex tends to Justine's face bite, and then the next morning, Justine wakes up in bed with Adrian, who turns out to be dead a huge chunk of his leg has been eaten. That reveal was also so devastating. You've really you can guess that Adrian's probably fucked, but I was still I was still folding out hope for him. Yeah, it's really gross to look at, really gross. And it turns out he's been He was spiked in the abdomen by a ski pool and then eaten, and Justine at first thinks that she did it, but apparently it was Alex who had stabbed him and eaten him, and then Alex goes to prison for murder. Then we cut to Justine visiting her parents, and her dad reveals that what happened isn't her fault. Nor was it Alex's fault. Their hunger for human flesh is something their mother passed down to them, because he opens his shirt and reveals a bunch of scarring from when their mother had eaten chunks out of him, and he's like, don't worry, Justine, I'm sure you'll find a solution to your cannibal problem. The end cut to title amazing ending because the dad's literally just sitting there like kind of calm, looking like, Yeah, I love your mother, so she could just take hunks out of me whenever she wants, I guess. So let's take a quick break and then we'll come right back to discuss. And we're back. So is this like a reverse Twilight situation? What's going on here? I was truly shocked at the reveal at the end that again, the first time I watched it, I did not see like so stark a reveal made and realizing how much it had been like seated in the beginning with their like interpersonal family relationships and you just kind of like view it as like, I don't know their parents that are kind of intense, I guess, And it tracks the entire time, but like side swipes you to where it's just like, oh, we all have to do this. She did it, I did it. We just have to do this in order to become like a fully formed adult, we have to go through this period. It makes me wonder like, would they have ever developed this hunger for human flesh had they not eaten the rabbit kidney? In which case, why do their parents insist on sending their daughters to this place where they know they'll eat this and then like that's like a hazing technique, yeah, and then they will develop these cannibalistic tendencies. I did have some questions walking away from the movie, but I do feel like I mean something that I because when when this movie ended, I was like, Okay, this is the kind of movie where like you have to just like go to the source and figure out. Okay, what was the writer director thinking when she made this? What has she publicly said this movie is about. I'm just I was so curious about her perspective on it. And I know that all of us have have spent some time. I mean, I think I've probably spent the least out of everybody. But but I as I was watching interviews with her about this movie, I really appreciated and thought it was very fucking cool how she would engage with questions like that to an extent but would not give the yes or no answers that she was being asked. And as that kind of pertains to gender, it like challenged some stuff that I had gone into these interviews kind of assuming that she was trying to say. And I felt very challenged by Julia Ducarnov of how she responded to those questions because I don't know, I felt a little silly by the end where she was asked, you know, like is this a women's horror movie essentially? And which is like if you flipped that question for almost any profession, it's uh, pretty insulting. And I was just like, oh, yeah, how many times have any of us been asked like, so, what is it like to be a woman comedy? And you're like, well, that's a shitty I object to the premise of the question, and I realized that I was sort of asking myself that question as a viewer of a horror movie, and she was sort of like, well, I don't you know, I don't really want to say either way. I don't think that will ask this question two men. I think that, you know, the protagonists of this movie could be a man potentially, and the movie could play out the same way. But this is the movie I wrote, so interpreted as you will, and I don't know. I just thought her attitude towards I think the very and current questions that are asked of filmmakers who are not white guys was very like punk rock and cool. I loved it. Yeah, It's something I love too, because, like I feel like in horror, especially when like marginalized people do manage to obtain the funding that they want to make something. Oftentimes, if you're like if you're a woman, or you're queer, or your trans or your POC, you're kind of expected to like sell your tragedy once you get the foot in the door, and you can't just tell a story to where it's just like I'm going to tell a horror story. But it's like, because horror is such a good vehicle for empathy, it's gonna be like I want you to like see what my experience is. But half the time that isn't even the stories they're trying to sell. It's the stories that they're being asked to sell. And because if you go back to the eighties and nineties. In the early two thousand's, you have these examples of like I've brought her up before, but Mary Hearn working on an American psycho, Or you have pet cemetery, you have like slumber party massacre, or where they're like just directed by women that want to tell stories. And there's almost this like sinister turn by like men in horror that hold the keys to the money towards like, oh, I'm implying that I want to like encourage more voices, but it's only a certain kind and like I want you to reaffirm that I'm a great human, and I'm like, I'm giving you these the money, but it's only to be like, look, how great of a human I am. I'm letting women tell their stories, but it's only like the stories I want them to tell, but only if they're talking about the worst thing that's ever happened to them. Yeah, Yeah, I totally agree with you. And that's something that I feel like I've I've been trying to like check and challenge and myself as a viewer to where it's like, yeah, is wouldn't it just be the actual equal approach would be like here's money to make the movie you want to make. Exactly. It doesn't need to be a one to one analogy for something you have lived through, Like that is such an absurd qualifier. If that were true, sci fi wouldn't exist, like just most horror movies wouldn't exist. And yeah, I don't know, Julia, do Karna put me in my place and if I loved every second of it, it was great. She also speaks to how she's not like I'm a female director making female movie. She's like, I'm a filmmaker making movies that could speak to any audience member. And she's like, I don't want to genderize my audience or my movie. And then she kind of equates people's tendency to like put female directors into boxes like that and like, oh, well, you're a woman and you're making movies for women, and only women are going to connect to this because woman's can only like women things, and she like equates it to like how ridiculous it is for like razors marketed to women have to be pink and have to like cost more, and like pens that are marketed to women that are pink, and like she's like, no, like I'm not. I'm just making a movie that happens to focus on a woman and be about that young woman's experience. But it's a movie that literally any audience member could see and see humanity in and be compelled by in some way. Yeah, And like I noticed a lot of the criticism for raw usually for men. Um We're critiques that I see only when it's a woman directing, because I see men do the same thing and they're usually praised for it. There's a lot where it's like I felt like hyper stylized for no reason. It felt like, you know, very like colorful and poppy for no reason. And that's like something that you hear them say to like Sofia Coppola, or it's like why is it so fim? Because it's pretty? And I love self indulgence in filmmakers. I love it when you give me something that might be like a little bit unaccessible or like, you know, very flashy for the sake of flashy, because you get to you're behind the helm. But when it's like David Lynch making something an eternity long, or like gas bar Noa making something that looks the same fucking way their geniuses but for women, it's like too stylish. Yeah, right, And then also people were saying like, oh, it's so nice to have a woman director brought to this genre because it adds like a softness to the industry, And she was like, what are you talking about? Have you even seen my movie? Like this movie soft toilet paper is soft. I'm not soft. This is a direct quote from her, which is amazing. That's an amazing one, like T shirt, She's so good. I love her. Yeah, I really appreciated how like and and also this is like an unfair thing, like if she were a male director, this would not be a problem that she would be having, Like there wouldn't be this level of loaded question lodged to her every which way about what she's making. And so yeah, I mean I hate that she has to do it, but she navigates these questions and issues. I thought, like, so in a way that made me want to be better. Like she's she's just awesome. She's intimidatingly French. Yes, she's so. I was like, even though I know, like I don't think I actually saw an interview where she was smoking a cigarette, but I felt like spiritually she was smoking a cigarette every time I saw her like long drags and like, yeah, there's so many points in this movie in which oftentimes I call something ugly and people think it's a negative, but like I love a lot of ugly things. Like my favor show as a kid was Couraged with The Cowardly Dog because all of the characters were like pretty ugly in Michieven looking such a massive fan of it, So like anything that's kind of ugly, and I feel like puberty tends to, like we brought it up earlier, have such a lens to it that when she shows those ugly moments, I have more of a wistful romance for my childhood than if I had watched something like The sand Lot to where I remember the last time I was free enough and felt safe enough to explore these things. Because there's a specific scene that felt like a literal one to one of a childhood experience I had, and I know it wasn't on purpose, It was just a very fun coincidence. Um it's that scene where she's like covered in blue paint and the guy that she's making out with his covered in yellow paint and they're essentially doing like the seven minutes in heaven and they're like, don't come out until you're green, and the guy runs out screaming. So because I had like a very religious upbringing, I did everything very differently. And it was also like measured with like excitement for the new, but also like this weird sense of like guilt and morning for like what I deemed the quote unquote innocent parts of me, because again I was like reckoning with that. And I remembered there was a class in Bible class where we came in and there was three lumps of plato on the desk, and he started the class by saying, like, you know, you're getting older and you're getting urges and even if you're like not acting on them when you have a partner, and he like mushed the two platos together and it was like purple and yellow. He was like, you like mix your colors in each other, but when you separate, you leave little bits of color in each other, and then eventually you start to lose your original color as you end up with your person. And so it was like, let's say, like you like end up with blue and then you've got all these bits in you and like a lot of the kids in class because like galaxy, it's galaxy brain charifying projection. It's massive shame projection. And like a lot of the I was mostly there because my parents had no idea what the school's deal was. They were just like, it's a private school, and we're from a developing nation, so it feels like it's a good deal. And a lot of them were kids whose like parents, very much like believed that kind of thing, and so they were very much like, yes, of course. And I got this terrifying, like intrusive thought the entire time where I was like, I want to be a rainbow. I want all the colors. I want to mix with all the colors, but I shouldn't because that's bad. And the next weekend, I was at a pool party and I noticed that there was this new kid in school that was staring at my chest. But I liked it, and we were alone in the pool later because everyone went inside, and he was like, can I like touch him? And I was like sure, and then he was like can we make out and maybe I can see him? And I was like, you know what, I'm good And then I left because I had gotten exactly what I wanted because I was like I just want to see what this is like and if that's cool, then I'm done. And he was utterly flabbergasted. And then in my mind, I just went on this mission where it's like I'm going to get the experience that I want and if I don't want it, and then I'm fucking walking away. And it was just the rest of high school, the amount of stuff that I did because I was curious. Before I actually had a first kiss, I like never I was talking to my husband about it, but I was like, I had most things that you would like try much later before I even let someone kiss me on the mouth, because I was just curious and like I saw that there. Yeah, yeah, I feel like this movie speaks to a lot of that, just like coming of age curiosity, and that's what I like really, and especially like after hearing the director speak about it, it was like, oh, yeah, this is a very skillfully told, like body horror coming of age movie that yes, there is a woman at the center of but like there's no mission statement related to the gender of the protagonist. It just like I don't know, like I just thought it was so because it it felt like at its core. The more I watched it, and the where I was sitting with it, it was like, whatever, this is a character who is going back and forth with a very eighteen year old problem, which is like who is the image that I have constructed of myself? And who am I becoming? And like where am I? Like what directions am I being pulled in? And what compromises am I willing to make as I become an adult? And like what am I actually very naive about that I'm afraid to admit And how does that relate to my family and how I grew up? And just all this ship that is very universal and to see that I've it made me just I don't know, like think about how rarely we see a very universal message channeled through a woman as a protagonist, which I feel like might be some of the cognitive dissonance I was experiencing of like, well, surely she must be trying to say something about woman and when what what happened to women? When women become women? But it's like, no, it's a very human experience. But I feel like we're conditioned to see these very human relatable heroes or I mean whatever, just need it's not a hero necessarily, but the person at the center of the story as usually men, and we're kind of expected to meet them where they're at with their experience, and the opposite is kind of rarely asked of people. But it's it's it's easy to do with this movie. Yeah, it's it's one of those things where it's so much better to aim for specificity than trying to please everyone and automatically like be for everyone for the sake of being for everyone, instead of like telling us specific as of a story as you want. I for how much I disagree with like many, many, many reviews, all of his horror reviews and his thoughts on The Lake House, which were mostly positive, which is bizarre. There's a Rogerty review that like lives in my brain all the time, and it was a review for Brokeback Mountain, and he was talking about why telling a specific story will resonate with more people because you're telling something that is detailed and authentic versus something that's like trying to be for every experience, even once you don't fucking know. And he was like a lot of filmmakers try and like tell a queer story by being like, here's a little bit for everyone, even though I don't actually know the experience. And then it doesn't even like land with queer people, and so it's just like vague. It's just vague. And he's like, Brokeback Mountain was such a specific story about these two people, but he's like, you're watching like straight guys call people that they haven't called in years, as like the ones that got away. You're watching like women do the same thing. And it's like, because it was so specific, it resonated harder with like the idea of lost love that everyone knows versus something that's just like I don't know what, what do analytics say? Everyone will like right right right? Oh that is yeah. Also hate to hand it to him, but that right, that hit because he's got a lot of opinions I do not agree with. But but yeah, you're you're totally. I mean, I feel like this movie kind of does scratch that same itches, Like if if Justine's story was less specific, the story wouldn't work the way that it does. Yeah, which, speaking of scratching itches, the sound design, Oh my god, oh my god, that rash that she develops, and like the scene where it's like getting peeled off, like it's a lot I I also really I wanted to just kind of shout out the scene between her and the doctor who is spoking at the appointment, which I was like, hilarious. I was hilarious to me because I am such an American du fist that I'm like, is this a joke or like, is this just what French doctors are like? I don't know, but that scene I thought was so that was like one of those scenes where it's like, oh, there was points were made in that scene, but it wasn't in a way that was I don't know that felt preachy or overwritten or anything like that. But the scene where Justine is going to get her rash looked at after it breaks out and she goes to a doctor or a nurse and has it looked at, she's not diagnosed correctly. They have a conversation and they have basically a conversation about how women are not taken seriously by doctors and specifically fat women in the context of the conversation, and it seems like Justine's take away from that conversation is like, well, this is a broken system. So this is not where I'm going to get the answers that I need and I thought that the way that Julia, I mean, I would be curious what other listeners think. I thought that the way that Julia Dukerno like illustrated that point by the doctor saying that she had had a fat woman as a patient who had been repeatedly not just misdiagnosed, but like refused medical care based on a like an issue that had nothing to do with the size of her body, and having that be sort of a wake up call for Justine of like, well, this isn't a system that's going to serve me or like treat me fairly basically. I just, yeah, I thought that was like such a cool, effective way to make that point. It's truly mind blowing. Like some people, I think, I like blew a few minds when I told a few friends that there's a weight limit for Plan b OH, I did not realize that either. Yeah, it's only effective up until I think two pounds. And then like I saw that scene and I've like watched it. I watched it with my husband and I brought it up to him and he's like seen it himself. From like it took me a very long time to get diagnosed with a combination of like endometriosis and PCOS because I would go to the doctors all the time and they're just like, well, you're fat, lose weight and that's why you're having a bad period. And I'm like, this feels significantly worse than what you're describing. I'm like this, this feels like I need some medical intervention soon because I'm like now dealing with chronic anemia. And it wasn't until an e R doctor was like, have you never been tested for either of these things? Like has nobody ever considered it? I'm like, I've never even heard of it. I've been having these symptoms since I was like eleven years old, and I think I was like nineteen at the time, and it was like the first time I gained diagnosis. And now to this day, I will like go to doctors and get the same answer and I'm like, no, actually, I have these two things and my ovaries looked like a bunch of grape clusters, so if we can get that taken care of, and they're just like no, no, no, it's fat. To where I was just like whole, it just doesn't work. It's just like it just doesn't work. I did a lot of research on this topic for a podcast that I have abandoned Sludge an American healthcare story. It ended, you don't need to abandoned it because I'm done hiatus. Yeah we'll say that. Um, but yeah, I started to examine all the ways in which particularly marginalized people have been completely failed by the American health care system on the basis that they are fat, or they are trans, or they are a person of color, or any number of things. Yeah, it's a real bias that a lot of healthcare professionals harbor and people die as a result. So absolutely, and that doesn't even begin to bring in the insurance component of it, and how discriminatory that is on top of everything, Like it's even if you can find a doctor who's going to give you a proper diagnosis, can you will you be quote unquote allowed to have the issue treated? And I mean Justine's character is a sis white girl from a family of veterinary doctors, like she is very privileged and even so, I mean it was like the frustration and futility of that scene just like I don't know it it really hit for me because it was just like, oh, this is just a zero sum game. Where even though Justine is talking to a doctor who fully was outraged and recognized like why would a fat woman be refused medical treatment? Like that's absolutely ridiculous. But even so, the doctor who is saying that is also dismissing Justine's concerns that she has about her own and is misdiagnosing her. So it's like, well, even the doctor that quote unquote gets it is fucking up and not listening to their patient and taking their issue seriously. So like, who the fund do you turn to? In that scene, Justine does not get diagnosed with cannibalism, and that's up. You need to start letting smoking doctors tell us where cannibals is. It's also like why she runs into Alexis arms. Yeah, for sure you're gonna go to anyone that's like, hey, this is what I think is going on with your and like, I guess you know more than me. I don't know. Yeah, that scene I thought like that scene was so I just have never seen a scene like that before that made a very legitimate and impactful point about something and also advanced the protagonist story in doing so. It feels weirdly rare that that happens in the way that it does in this movie deeply, so I hadn't like already in a series of things that I hadn't quite seen anything like. It was yet another one, and especially that in her her dynamic with her roommate is another one that I keep bringing up American Psycho. But like, I love it when women shoot men the way men shoot women because it feels so fucking rare that you're just like I have stumbled upon something, because you never see them shot in like the same like slow pan down examinations, and like the best part is every time you watch Justine watching him, she looks like Jack Torrence in the Shining. Yeah, She's got like eyes low and she's just like kind of scoping him out and nose starts bleeding, yes, like very intently looking at him. And then like the possessiveness that she gets between her and her sister about him to where she doesn't even register any information. It's like, don't talk to him. I called him. It's mine now. Like it's always interesting when you get to see like the lens of objectivity moved in a different direction. Right, Oh, I just thought of this, And it might be because we talked about this also on the other episode we did with you recently, Vanessa, where we talked about the kill your Gaze trope. But I was like, oh, wait a minute, that does happen in this movie too, because even though Adrian and Justine have sex, he identifies as gay and he like tells her several times. Yeah, so he's kind of, as far as I could tell, he's the only identifiably queer character in the movie with any kind of narrative significance. And he also dies at the end, so part of it fell up very like. I watched that scene a few times, and then the thing that I found the most interesting about it is it made me think about puberty and that very scary moment that I think everyone has either like experienced or is afraid to admit that they've experienced, in which they turned someone into an into not not even object, into a tool for exploration and don't really give any regard to like how that person is affected by that, to where it's just like, I'm gonna engage in something really intense with you and then I'm going to disappear completely, Because that was my intent the entire time, and I just wanted to see what that felt like, or like I want you because I decided I want you even though he's mostly just the one time he was into it was because he was like kind of fucked up in horny and like not into her the entire time, but like she decided that he was something that she wanted, so she was going to take it anyway. And it's this very uncomfortable but human look into like the inherent selfishness that springs up during puberty that we kind of either learn to reel in or let it spin out of control in terrifying ways and become awful adults. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. Yeah, I I I had that sort of bookmarked as just something that I wanted to to talk about because yeah, Adrian is the only identifiably queer character. I do feel like the writing takes care to tell us who he is. He certainly has a lot like his His impact on the plot extends beyond his sexuality by a lot, because he's, you know, to an extent, the only person who is like quote unquote onto her and like but also very much cares about her and is trying Like, Yeah, I was kind of I was kind of stuck on his character because it didn't feel like a cut and dry, kill your gaze trope. But he is certainly I mean, he is a queer character who is dead by the end of the movie. Yeah, it's It's definitely one where like I keep wondering to myself, like is it deliberate? Is it deliberate? And what is that deliberate action trying to say, because there's so many elements to this that are like thoughtful enough that I'm like, either this was like something included and that was just like the trajectory for him, or there was a deliberate reason for that, right. Yeah. Yeah, I also had I was just like I'm not sure. I'm not sure exactly what the intent is here. Nothing struck me as so like, oh my god, I can't believe the director made this choice and I'm offended by it or anything like that. It was more just like, oh I did notice that, but it's quizzical. Yeah, I just it's like I wonder how much yeah, like like you're saying that, how much thought and like what the decision making was behind that? Because I felt like ultimately what was important about Audreyan's character was that he which we see in that awful scene where Justine realizes that he's dead and he's not just her the person closest to her who isn't accountable, that's like laying next to her. And it felt like the most impactful thing about his character was that he was someone who was close to her, who gave a ship about her and cared about her. And it felt it felt like the significance of his character was, you know, just unrelated to his identity. It was like, this is the person who matters to me the most, who is not my family and accountable, like and so you feel you like feel that loss when she and also the I mean the performance from um Garant Marallier very French, very French, but like her performance in that scene I thought was just so like gut wrenching, lee awful when you realize that he's dead and she thinks that she's done it and like all this ship and yeah, I just I I ended that character's arc with with just question marks. I don't know, I think this could be. This is just this is a new thought that I'm just having right now. But I've been trying to figure out what his character like reminds me of and what it echoes of, And it kind of reminds in terms of like when I've felt like that. He reminds me of any time I've told a man that I've been wholly uninterested in him, but I was kind to him, and that was a green light enough, Like it makes me think of every time I've been like, there is no sexual appeal here. You're a friend and roommate or you're like schoolmate or co worker that I'm kind of nice too, but like me looking out for you no matter how much I say I'm not interested in you, is the green light to be like, but we're into each other, right, you mean as far as like how Justine, Like she's the one who's like, oh, I've I've got this green Is that we mean? Yeah, because I noticed, like even after they have sex, he's like, I'm fucking gay, and even before that, everyone else is telling her like she knew that, and she knew that, and everyone else is telling her like, this will not end the way you wanted to with him, like because she looks at him very like dreamy eyed, and even when he first pulls her into the bathroom, he has made it so fucking clear I am gay. I do not want you this way. We are friends, but when he first pulls into the bathroom, he's trying to show her a video of her on the phone that like uncomfortable video, but she literally looks at him and smiles and even raises an eyebrow and is like what are you doing and is like, oh, maybe he's trying again. And it's like he has made it so clear to you that he's not into you, but she's still like maybe now. The entire time also just emblematic of the confusing nature of coming of age sexually and how we like to say, as someone who has been in love with a gay man before, you're just like, oh, yea, no, he told you. He told you, Like stop stop. I've definitely had like a boyfriend who's been like I'm fucking gay, and I'm like, does this mean we're not going to prom? And it's not registering. Oh, I'm glad. That's such a universal experience. Ye yeah, And and that is like that is a I mean, I guess even that conversation alone is like that is such a messy aspect of being for both of them, of like being a young person figuring your sexuality out and like Adrian does have it figured out and he's clear, and also like Justine is like but like you know, and it's I don't know. I mean again, I want to know what our our listeners think is it's a pretty like gutsy dynamic for the writer to take on because it's I mean, just based on the last two minutes of discussion, it is like certainly a thing that happens and exists and can be confusing to navigate, you know, like some whatever. Like in the situation, in my personal experience, we were able to get through it. It's all good, We're still friends, it's like fine. And then other situations and differently, it's a real life dynamic that exists, but it's not one that I've seen attempted in movies very often, and I kind of get why because it's a like risky, messy thing to attempt in a story. It's a fucking mine field that doesn't really have enough discussion or examination to like figure out how to approach and what those dynamics are. Because I can I feel like anyone that's ever been in that situation, it's like the first time you truly realize what a big spectrum gender and sexuality is to where you're just like, I don't know where my rigidity is and I'm still figuring it out and maybe it's like kind of solidly somewhere, but I'm still not sure, and the language doesn't exist for it, and my birds in the Bees conversation is so heteronormative and for baby making that I have literally no guide for this. Like I remember sitting down with my mother and being like, were you at all prepared for two of your daughters to be queer when you're giving us the sex talk? And she's like, I just learned about dental damns from your thirty three year old sister a year ago. I was not fucking ready for any of that. Nothing prepared me for it. And so when that's like one of your first formative romances and society isn't advanced enough to help you navigate it, everyone is messy and everyone makes the wrong choice. Well, that's what's so cool to me about this movie, or at least one of the things where the character that we are watching and identifying with because she's the protagonist, is someone who is like fucking up a lot and like making mistakes and like not behaving very well to the point where she's eating people. But this movie has this rooting for a cannibal, Like that's like the writing if you, as a writer can get us to root for a cannibal like your good writer period, especially because like the cannibalism can easily be seen as an allegory for things that are perhaps more relatable to your average person who isn't engaging in cannibalism, where, you know, a lot of people have discussed how this movie is allegorical for, you know, just a coming of age, sexual awakening, just the kind of general idea of discovering your identity. Some people are even like it's about experimenting with drugs, probably other things that you could see it as an allegory for. To me, the main one was like the coming into your own as a sexual person, and like starting to mature sexually and the whole kind of like sexual metaphor, where that is a messy thing to now the gate as basically any person, especially because of the culture we live in and how we are all products of our environments and how culture does not adequately prepare really anyone to especially like when we were coming of age sexually and everyone in generations before us like, yeah, the boomers were not read. I mean, it's like van Efa, you just like said it very cular. It's like the boomers were not ready, right, So it's just yah, it's a very interesting thing to explore. So it's not as though like the movies and being like the movie, we're not like, oh wow, look at Justine. What a model character, what a role model I can look up to kind of thing in that way. But it's more just like, let's examine how messy and complicated and often confusing and sometimes shameful this processes for everybody, and especially because again our culture where sex is still kind of taboo, especially in certain contexts, and rape culture is still pervasive, and a lot of people's understanding of consent is still pretty murky, and there's very little emphasis on female pleasure and women's sexual autonomy, and any sex that isn't sis heterosex has historically been demonized, and people are shamed for having kinks and just like all this stuff that makes navigating your own sexuality a difficult and again messy thing that again a lot of people are conditioned to feel shame about, and cultural expectations make it so a lot of people, like we see Justine doing in the movie, funk up and make mistakes and push other people's boundaries and comfort levels. And yeah, so I just think that it's really cool that this movie explores this awakening process for this young woman and that you can see it in all these allegorical and symbolic ways. And yeah, I mean the idea of shame where I was just thinking about, like I was trying to just like think through I was like, Okay, why cannibalism for this story specifically? And I feel like shame is the key there where there's so few things that to everyone essentially is like you would be ashamed if you ate another person, Like that would be a universal feeling of shame minus a very very very very very small fraction of people who exist. And I I liked how it's like not liked. I mean, it's very difficult to watch, but how it in the context of a coming of age story. It's like, how can you make anyone watching this movie if the feeling of shame And it's like, oh yeah, like evoking the feeling of doing the most shameful thing that no person is ever supposed to do. Of course that's going to like bring a universality to this character. That is like such a smart use of the idea of cannibalism. Like it's just so good. It's so smart because it's one of like the last taboos. It's one of like the last things that's like we don't talk about this, and if we do, like the person choice, we like looked at a certain type of way, like sex is far from like the last one, but it certainly still is one. And by like merging the two and like piggy backing it together, you end up I was going to say odd, but I'm not going to say odd. Um, it's fucking beautiful that a movie about cannibalism makes me like feel a little bit more in awe of humanity by the end of it, towards like, oh, this is such a collective experience we pretend isn't real, that we're all like completely united by that by the end of it, I'm just like humans or something else. I would recommend if you haven't already read it. Vanessa and listeners. Um. There's a Guardian interview with the director Julia Duquneau entitled Cannibalism is Part of humanity because she rocks this is what her whole thing. She's like, Yeah, I made this movie because like, cannibalism is extremely a part of humanity, and that's what I'm going for with this movie. I desperately want to know her thoughts on like meat consumption and farming now that is I would be hilarious if she is like like militant vegan right where she's like, it's not, We're not that far from it. Like, I desperately want to know where she thinks, because she shows it in the movie as well, Like where do those lines blur for her? Yeah, right, let's take another quick break and then we will come right back and we're back. There are two other things that stuck out to me about this movie. I guess I'll go for the more obscure one first. And maybe this is like it's like hit for me personally. I don't know, but the ending of the movie took me off guard plot wise, because it is such a good ending to the movie to be like, oh, this is like the idea that it's like this isn't your specifically's fault. This is something that was passed down to you, and I'm sure like you can make the argument for like a generation, like it's a generational trauma in this family that women eat people um or or even just the offspring this bloodline eats people. We don't know, because the two siblings in this family are are girls. It could it could be you don't know, but it is the generational inherited trauma. And so in a way, it's like Justine can feel relief that it's like this is not an individual shame or flaw. It is coming from somewhere. There's a context for it. And I thought that was cool. But then also the idea of like the last line of the movie is her father basically saying, but you're smart, you'll figure it out. And so it's like, now there's this context for this huge like shame and humiliation and sadness in her life, and she's also being told by the person providing that context, who she loves and trusts, good fucking luck. Like you know, I just thought that was such a just again, just like a very human frustration and experience to be like, oh no, no, no, our whole family is fucked up. But like, uh, I don't know, like good luck, hope you figure that out, Like it I just I loved it. Maybe it'll be you, right, Like, maybe you'll be the one to resolve general like who knows how far back this goes, like you would assume further and he's like, no, Justine, you're a smart kid, good luck whatever, brutle. It made me think of every time an older cousin would like, note something funked up in our family and then be like, but we're betting on you, kid, And I'm like, that's a lot of weird bloodlines to depend on me to rectify. It's a lot of pressure. You're like, oh, yeah, I've got like taking a Like it just felt so like in and out and in of like, oh, this is a generational issue, it's not an individual problem. But then her dad is also taking the extra step to make it an individual problem for her and say so you should probably figure this out or this is just going to keep happening. It's such a I don't know, It's like every family has their version of whatever that is. It's also like this terrifying moment when you find out this very intimate thing about like your parents relationship dynamic because like her mom is so aloof the entire time that I'm sure in her mind that she's like the colder one that leaves a lot of things up to Dad, and then finding out that Dad is just kind of a midnight snack for mom sometimes, Like, yeah, it's that moment where you're like, oh, there's just stuff behind the curtains the entire time that I haven't been privy too because everyone decided that I couldn't handle it, right, Yeah, I do. I think it's kind of interesting the choice to really not include her mom very much in the movie and then the reveal it comes from the dad, and like there's another earlier conversation where she talks to her dad outside the hospital after she's eating her sister's finger, and I guess that like more effectively sets up this big reveal that it's like and it was her mother who is responded like she passed down the annibulism gene whatever. But um, yeah, it definitely made the reveal more shocking because I guess we don't don't really know that much about her mom, if anything, so at first I was sort of like, what is that? But then also it's like, oh, it's good. I mean they have to withhold that from you. And then in red and then when you walk it back the second time, you're like, oh, that was like absolutely the right choice and you understand it. Watching a second time, it makes me want a like prequel to Raw that we where we focus on her mom and like, I want to focus on her mom. And I'm also like fascinated by the dad because I feel like the dad could be such a fascinating exploration into like kink as well to where it's like what what in him? That like? Because he was like, I pursued her and then we finally kissed, and then you find out that that scar on his lip came from their first kiss in which she bit him. But he was like I want more. I know this, and I want more and I want to be around for more. So I'm like what in him was like not only like this is something that I can like love her in spite of it. To have a relationship that long and have it be like something that happened that young and adolescents, it can't be in spite of He's there has to be an additional appeal. He's got to be into it. Yes, yeah, You're not in a relationship for decades for nothing. Getting eaten actively eaten by your spouse if you're not kind of like this is hot, right, Another just like familial relationship thing I wanted to talk about was the relationship between the two sisters. Yes, yes, that was the other thing. Yeah, where I'm realizing like how rare it is to see a relationship dynamic between two sisters be at the center of a movie. And it was just like, first, just like refreshing to se you that because of the lack of that relationship dynamic that we don't get that much of um. And then on top of that, I just thought it was really well written. It felt like a very authentic dynamic to me, where sometimes we see them getting along and bonding and getting closer, and then other times we see that they're pissing each other off. The like kind of older sister thing of like her being overly critical of her younger sister is something that like I very tragically identified with because I'm like, oops, this reminds me of of all the times that I was really critical and mean to my younger sister. Sorry a movie too, yes, like because it really like it's I this again felt like I God, damnit, Roger Ebert, Like I feel like it connects back to what you were saying earlier than I of like the specificity of this is a relationship between sisters, and the fact that it doesn't shy away in vague ify that relationship strengthens the universal connection that people are going to take away from it, because I was thinking about my little brother when I was watching this, and it was like, well, obviously, like we're not you know, like both like let's pe together because that's just not what our relationship is. But but the dynamics and the you know, fierce loyalty that many people feel towards their siblings and the like that's such a like Justine fox up so bad and Alex welcomes her back and Alex murders just a best friend, and like, you know, that's an individual journey of can I forgive and forget? But like the whole like concept of like the thing that binds them and the reason that they're fucking up is this generational problem that they both have. And they're both individuals, they have different personalities, they have this very sibling e dynamic, but they're kind of like haunted by this same generational issue in different ways. And it seems like that's that, and also like the just intense bond that a lot of siblings have is what makes them able to forgive each other and navigate things. I just I thought it was so again, just like making cannibalism, the generational trauma is such a weird, cool creative decision right down to like I really love the detail of when they're saying bye to each other, when Alex is in jail and Alex flips off Justine and you see the stump of her finger and then Justine like pushes the scar like against the window, and it's so intimate, and then they're like having this little interaction even if it's like uncomfortable and the rely eving, but also that they're deliberately like showing each other like you did this to me, ha ha. That I think only exists the amount of times I've like waxed poetic with my brother about the like dangerous ship that they used to do with my tiny young body because they were like ten years older than me, and they would like stuff me into toy boxes and push me down the stairs or like let's go sledding. Oops, Vanessa slid into the road, and then now we're like ha, ha ha, you almost killed me, And I'm like, yeah, because we were weird children around each other. We're so fucked up, we like love each other fiercely and put each other through the wringer because like we're getting our baby brains cooked up into adult brains and then just acting out on each other because we in our heads default to like they're going to be there forever. They can't unsibling me, so they will be far more forgiving of my worst moments than anyone else. But instead that means we put each other through more hell than we put anyone else with the right, like, yeah, the the highs are higher, the lows are lower, and it's just so siblings, Like siblings are inherently fucked up in the way they treat each other throughout their lives. Like, show me a healthy sibling dynamic, you just like it doesn't exist, and then birth order makes hierarchy. Yeah, oh yeah, that's just built in, so you just have this little cast system coated into you in your house where it's just like, all right, Louise got cheerios before me, so that clearly means fuck me. I guess this is why I was just like God, the idea of parenting is so stressful because it's just a small, perceived slight that sends your children on a careening like freight train of emotional distress because it's like, well, but yeah, I mean it was and and the betrayals that Alex and Justine make to each other are severe. But again, I feel like it just like speaks to the writing of the movie that I never questioned why would they still defend each other in this situation? Like it's so obvious why they would. And it doesn't mean that it's morally right or that it's but it's like, of course they're going to be there for each other. Who else are they going to talk to about this awful thing that exists in both of them? And who else do you have that kind of intense bond and loyalty and love for in their lot? Like it's it's them. So yeah. Again, It's like another thing that I feel like is not really explored in many movies this effectively. Yeah, for sure, it's it's usually far more traveling pansy Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, wow. I love that as an adjective. Traveling panty, traveling pansy. Um, does anyone have anything else they want to talk about. I do want to say the soundtrack is amazing, great soundtrack rate, score, the music is incredible. I wanted to share a quote from Julia from this Guardian article slash interview that I referenced before, in which she says, quote, I didn't want to glamorize anything, especially with the girl's bodies. A body is a body, and every movie we see women have to be beautiful and fit or whatever the hell, and they have to fit a certain box. And no women fart, poop, pe burp. This is why you can relate to them, because they are not these heavenly creatures. They are real people with real feelings. And when they go down, they go down. This is something we don't see enough of. Always in movies, when people cry, they cry like this. And then apparently she uh, Julia mimes a sorrowful weep um saying like St Mary crying, We're all equals with our bodies. So fun golf. I love her, Oh my God, like that she wonderful. That said, like I wish that there was like more. It's it's interesting for a movie that acknowledges medical issues as it pertains to fatness in the size of your body. It is like still very very like generally white thin movie, which again I wonder what the because it seems like Julia Ducurno is very aware of these issues and very conscious that feels strongly about them. So I do under like kind of what the casting stuff is. It does seem like particularly with the lead, this is like a longstanding working relationship between the actress and the director. But I mean that was like kind of the only thing in this like the only thing in this movie that I was like, is this a France thing? Like, but there's diversity in France like that, it's not a France thing. So I was curious about that, and I'm I'm really curious to see more of what Julia Ducarno does and how she like what do you do after raw? Like that's get it get pregnant by a car? I'm so excited to see it. Is that what titan Nick is about? So the premise is a young girl who gets into a horrific car accident and instead of like you know, growing closer to her parents and seeking comfort there um, she has like this crazy scarner head and instead becomes obsessed with cars with a desire to romance them. Um becomes an erotic car dancer and gets pregnant by one and then breaks the law and has to run on the lamb by dressing up as a pre pubescent boy and convincing a man that she is his long lost son. Like she takes big swings and people love this movie. Like all the early reviews of this movie where like, Wow, she pulled it off. I'm like she did that? How that concept? Oh do you execute that? And here we are talking about a movie in which a girl plucks fat from a lip out of her teeth and eats it, and we're like, remember when we all got our periods? So now I'm like I have to see whatever this is. Right. By the way, the actor who plays Adrian is Arab, Yes, but I think he comply. I mean, it's not it's not. I'm not saying it's a completely white cast, but it is a close to whitecast. Yeah, that is true, but just wanted to acknowledge that. Yeah, does anyone have anything else to mention? I'm also sorry I'm on the Wikipedia because I've been trying to not spoil Titan Titane for myself, like even pre knowing we were doing raw for this episode. It just the premise was so intriguing to me. The I'm like, I don't want to know anything, I just want to see it. But I'm on the Wikipedia page, so turn off the podcast. But Garant Marillier, who played Justine, is credited on the Wikipedia page for Titan as a character named Justine. What so this might be an expanded universe thing, like I don't know, the Chrono extended universe. How fucking cool would that be if this is like, oh my building out an outour freaky universe. Oh, I would be so excited. I'm very excited to see this movie. Now. Sorry, I didn't mean to like, but yeah, she's credited as Justine again. What I'm going to look out for that. I'm going to look out for that. That's so exciting. I'm very health Okay, So that was all I had to say about this movie. I love it so much. The movie, of course, passes the Bechdel test. Justine talks to Alex quite a lot, as well as to her mother, and many, if not most of those conversations past. They do talk about Audrean sometimes, but they're mostly talking about vet school and eating people cannibalism, so at a passes as far as our nipple scales zero to five nipples. Based on examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens um, I would give this like a four and a half. I think there's just like a few little things that pinned for me that we mentioned throughout the episode, But by and large, I appreciate a movie is not afraid to explore via cannibalism slash cannibalism as a metaphor, a movie that is not afraid to explore parts of her life and body and sexuality that feel extremely authentic to that experience, even if a lot of what she's doing is like fucking up and making mistakes and like being gross and like surprise, biting people and you know, stuff like that, Because even though that that's a new one, um, Because even though that behavior is not okay, and kissing and biting people without their consent and pushing people past their comfort level are all wrong, we relate to the humanity of her experience in a way that most movies don't even attempt to do or couldn't do, because they're made by people who simply don't understand. So it's just very refreshing too to watch a movie written and directed by a woman that is not afraid to explore the messier side of life. And cannibalis, Yeah, the messy side of cannibalism. That's a good that's a good elevator pitch for this as a like a rob com cannibalism, it gets messy. What a great tagline. Um. So yeah. I think that there's a lot of cool things happening in the movie as far as like what it's examining, and you know, different interpretations, as far as like symbolic allegorical stuff. And I think it's really cool. And I will give the movie four and a half nipples. I'll give uh one to Julia Ducarno, one to each Justine, Alex and their mother, and then I'll give my half nipple to the poor dog Quickie who had to be put down. I'm really sad about that, poor Quickie. I was sad about Quickie to forgot, although it led to one of my favorite interactions, which was her reading the text from Quickie and not even responding to the dog dying and immediately going, why does my sister have your number? Loved it. It's this movie is wonderful. Okay, I'll meet you at four and a half. It's like the rare one that it's like it extremely passes the vectil test, and it's also like very near a movie that is like I just would watch this a million times. I want to show this movie to everybody. I'm very excited to preach the gospel of Julia Ducarno. I wish, I mean, there are certain things that I just was like curious about I wish were explored a little more. I do wish that there was more diversity in terms of race and body in the movie. But this movie fucking rocks, Like it's just so good, and I feel like it's for so many reasons that we've described. I think it's so wonderful and cool and should not feel this rare or unique to find a woman at the center of a story who is very you know, specific in her experience, like in this, like it's very like she couldn't be anyone else but who she is. She's not a like, you know, focus tested, vague ified protagonists that I think we see very very often when we see female protagonists. Right now, I think that like it would be whatever however you feel about it, It's like it would be naive to say that Black Widow wasn't focused, tested to relate to as many people as hugely possible. This is a character who is who she is, but because of how skillful and thoughtful and risky and cool the writing is, anyone can put themselves in her place because what she's feeling is becoming an adult struggling with her relationship with her family, and like, we've all done eating a person here and there, so it's great. I just I'm so excited about this movie. I'm so happy that's in my life now. Four and a half nipples, I'm going to give all of them to Julia Ducarno. I'm so excited to see her next movie, Vanessa, what say you? I'm also going to do the four and a half because I love this movie. I love this movie and I am so happy that it exists and just exist as like a testament to like, why you want to diversify who's behind the lens because the stories are just more interesting and the perspectives are rare. The half star is for pretty much the same reasons as y'all, and that um I would like especially like to see both more diversity and body diversity, because like, if you're going to mention like a fat person and a fat person's plate, I'd like to see one. It's it's Chekhov's fat person at this point, like let let me, let me have one. Um. But at the same time, it's such a concise, well told story that doesn't really waste any time, but like luxuriate's where it needs to. And I love this movie and I love how specific and odd and real this character is, which, by the way, if that's the kind of character that interests you. On HBO, Max Soon is a movie called We're All Going to the World's Fair that has a teenage girl that is the closest to any teenager that I've ever felt familiarity with. I feel more like her than any like glistening hair teen and anything that's ever existed. And it's one of my favorite horror movies of last year. Um I literally cried because I was just so excited at something like it existed. And that's how I felt the first time I saw ras so like definitely for a half stars. Yes, love it. Vanessa, Thank you for joining us truly, Fripple, thank you for bringing us one of our new favorite movies. Thank you. I love being on here. Yell are amazing. You are tell us where people can check out your stuff. Um, you can find me. I've recently changed my Twitter handles, so you can find me under An E. S. S. Guerrero on Twitter and S and S. Guerrero on Instagram, and starting October you can find me on shutters Behind the Monsters. Um, yeah, I think us about it. Amazing. Thank you again for being here. Come back anytime. Oh I have a podcast. Oh my god, I'm so sorry. I was like both like, wait, hold on, I'm literally about it. Edit right now. Um, I have a podcast. It's called Kicking and Screaming. It's you can find it under kick Screen Pod and it's where I specifically talk about horror and martial arts because they're my two favorite genres and I think they're very frequently discredited and are also one of the few industries in which marginalized people can get their foot in the door. So I love talking about it and if you like about those like those genres, definitely check it out when you get a chance. Yes. Absolutely. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram. At Bechtel Cast you can subscribe to our Matreon at Patreon dot com slash Bechtel Cast where you get to bonus episodes every month plus access to the back catalog, and that is five dollars a month. You can also get our merch on t public dot com. At t public dot com, slash the beck Doel Cast for all of your merchandising needs. And if we don't see you on the merch store, well we're going to eat you. Yeah bye,