Braveheart vs Gladiator: Part 2

<v Speaker 1>Hello everybody, and welcome to the Surely You Can't Be
<v Speaker 1>Serious Podcast, discussing and debating the iconic and the forgotten
<v Speaker 1>of eighties and nineties pop.
<v Speaker 2>Culture with your co hosts James D.
<v Speaker 1>Graves and Jason Coliban.
<v Speaker 3>All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Surely
<v Speaker 3>you Can't Be Serious Podcast. Please give it a ground
<v Speaker 3>of applause for my co host and friend of all ages,
<v Speaker 3>mister Jason Colvin.
<v Speaker 2>How's our VideA and good to see it.
<v Speaker 3>Thanks for joining us.
<v Speaker 2>We're so glad to this.
<v Speaker 3>We are here today to talk again about Gladiator and Braveheart.
<v Speaker 3>Brave Heart. Yes, I'm not to start pointing at you.
<v Speaker 2>Wait, I've got a question for you before we go
<v Speaker 2>any further. Okay, yes, do you like movies about gladiators?
<v Speaker 4>Oh?
<v Speaker 3>Very good. Okay, so we left off we left off
<v Speaker 3>last time. We were talking about the composers. As far
<v Speaker 3>as composers go. We they're both great.
<v Speaker 2>They're both great.
<v Speaker 3>They're both great. But my but my film score is
<v Speaker 3>better than your film score.
<v Speaker 2>I don't think so. I really don't think it really is. Okay,
<v Speaker 2>if you like bagpipes, then you can stick with.
<v Speaker 3>The I do like bagpipes.
<v Speaker 2>Crazy.
<v Speaker 3>Anybody watching Braveheart who doesn't like bagpipes, it's probably not
<v Speaker 3>gonna like that.
<v Speaker 2>I like James Horner.
<v Speaker 3>I'm not a big bagpipes guy. Well, then I can
<v Speaker 3>see what you don't like the movie, because that's like
<v Speaker 3>the first thing that happens is the bagpipes start playing.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I'm ready to kind of dive in.
<v Speaker 2>I've got I've got a few things that I want
<v Speaker 2>to talk about as far as interesting tidbits before we
<v Speaker 2>dive into sort of final opinion.
<v Speaker 3>Sure, yeah, I mean, let's let's do it. Let's just
<v Speaker 3>kind of do a film comparison. I think, you know,
<v Speaker 3>probably what we should do is make an attempt to
<v Speaker 3>say something nice about the film that we don't like.
<v Speaker 2>Right, Let's do that.
<v Speaker 3>Okay. So, so my nice thing to say is this
<v Speaker 3>film was pretty.
<v Speaker 2>It was pretty.
<v Speaker 3>Your Gladiator movie was pretty. That's the best you got, Okay. So,
<v Speaker 3>I mean, honestly, I like Marcus Aurelius by Richard Harris.
<v Speaker 3>I like Comedists by Joaquin Phoenix. I think they both
<v Speaker 3>did a fantastic job. I like Lucilla Connie Nielsen did
<v Speaker 3>a fantastic job with that part those supporting cast members
<v Speaker 3>killed it.
<v Speaker 2>That's similar to what I'm going to say. Okay, I
<v Speaker 2>mean I really enjoyed the actress who plays Muran. They
<v Speaker 2>plucked her right out of college.
<v Speaker 3>Basically, Catherine mccarmack had just finished up with drama school,
<v Speaker 3>had done one really low budget film, and then was
<v Speaker 3>cast in this.
<v Speaker 2>She does a lot with her eyes and sort of
<v Speaker 2>she has that quiet grace. I can see why Mel
<v Speaker 2>Gibson sort of we talked about how he fell in
<v Speaker 2>love with her a little bit, right, So she does
<v Speaker 2>a great job.
<v Speaker 3>I think.
<v Speaker 2>I think the actor who played Steven, the guy that
<v Speaker 2>you really like, he does a great job steal scenes,
<v Speaker 2>has great lines, is really funny. And then the guy
<v Speaker 2>who played Robert, the Bruce, I thought did a great
<v Speaker 2>job of being conflicted, right, I want to believe.
<v Speaker 3>I want to believe, right, Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>You can tell it's just tearing him up inside. I
<v Speaker 2>think he did a fantastic all men betray I think
<v Speaker 2>for me the movie is compelling, right, the story is compelling.
<v Speaker 2>I'm interested in how the Scotts won their freedom. William
<v Speaker 2>Wallace is an interesting character. It's a great storage of
<v Speaker 2>courage and leadership.
<v Speaker 3>You know, and people probably can't tell from our voices
<v Speaker 3>which one of us are which like, if they've seen
<v Speaker 3>our pictures out there, you are. You are the one
<v Speaker 3>that looks like you have more of the Scottish and
<v Speaker 3>Irish heritage, that's right than I do. I look, I
<v Speaker 3>look more Southern European and you look more Northern European.
<v Speaker 3>But you're You're finding favored with the Italian movie and
<v Speaker 3>I'm with the UK movie.
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting. We did talk about that the other day.
<v Speaker 2>I definitely, I mean, I've read hair. If you haven't
<v Speaker 2>seen me, I look Irish Ish, you know, yeah, And
<v Speaker 2>you definitely look more Mediterranean Ish European from the clan
<v Speaker 2>of Maculvn. But uh yeah. So I think both films
<v Speaker 2>are skillfully made for me. The stories are compelling. I
<v Speaker 2>think they're filmed well. I think they look good on
<v Speaker 2>the screen.
<v Speaker 3>I do have some problems with let's stop pretending to
<v Speaker 3>like movies that we don't really like and let's just
<v Speaker 3>get on. Let's get on with. Your movie is pretty good,
<v Speaker 3>Your movie is okay, okay.
<v Speaker 2>Ish, Okay, I'm gonna I really, I really feel like
<v Speaker 2>you're way off based on this.
<v Speaker 3>I feel like you're completely aspect. I mean really, when
<v Speaker 3>you told me that, I was just like, I cannot
<v Speaker 3>I cannot fathom that you like Gladiator better than Braveheart.
<v Speaker 3>It just doesn't. It doesn't. I don't even understand it. Okay,
<v Speaker 3>So let's let's do this. Let's just kind of bounce
<v Speaker 3>back and forth. Let's talk about let's just talk about first,
<v Speaker 3>let's talk about the main character. Okay, we'll talk about
<v Speaker 3>William Wallace. Then we can talk about Maximus. Okay, Maximus.
<v Speaker 3>The rest of us could Covinamus.
<v Speaker 2>Maximus, Decimus, Meridius, yes, whatever, father to a murrid son.
<v Speaker 3>Okay. So I don't want to I don't want to
<v Speaker 3>get into the personal lives of the actors. I mean
<v Speaker 3>we can, we can pokeholes all of that all day long,
<v Speaker 3>and can do that with any actors. But if you
<v Speaker 3>if we look at actually the performance here, I mean
<v Speaker 3>I believed everything that was happening with William Wallace. I mean,
<v Speaker 3>he his emotions, his humor, all of those things came
<v Speaker 3>through so clearly, and he was a character that I
<v Speaker 3>identified with. And then I was just like, yeah, I
<v Speaker 3>want to I want to be like that. I want
<v Speaker 3>to believe, right, Yeah, I mean that's that I felt
<v Speaker 3>the same way. I felt like Robert the Bruce. I
<v Speaker 3>felt like I was less of a man than this
<v Speaker 3>guy was and and wanted to be more like him.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, all right, so I mean this is kind of
<v Speaker 2>the crux of my position. But I mean, Gladier is
<v Speaker 2>the story of Maximus. You have to like this guy
<v Speaker 2>for it to work right. And for me, He's loved
<v Speaker 2>by the Emperor Marcus Relius. Yeah, He's loved by his
<v Speaker 2>wife and family. He's loved and respected by his men.
<v Speaker 2>He is a servant leader, a loving father, a good husband.
<v Speaker 2>He is good at his job. He is the man
<v Speaker 2>that I aspire to be loved appreciated.
<v Speaker 3>I'm over here shaking my head.
<v Speaker 2>Literally, You're the only male I've ever met who doesn't
<v Speaker 2>love this character.
<v Speaker 3>No, because to me, he's Poudy through the whole movie.
<v Speaker 3>Like this is all just I'm frustrated that I got
<v Speaker 3>asked to do something that I didn't want to do.
<v Speaker 3>You know, for me, I got asked to lead Rome,
<v Speaker 3>and then for me, I'm.
<v Speaker 2>Because he wants to go home to his family.
<v Speaker 3>Right, But but come on, man, I mean, and then
<v Speaker 3>once even once everything goes bad, now I refuse to fight,
<v Speaker 3>I throw this. He just seems powdy the whole movie.
<v Speaker 3>When I found out later on that Russell Crowe was
<v Speaker 3>getting really frustrated as they tried to make this movie
<v Speaker 3>with no script, and then he would walk off the
<v Speaker 3>sets the set, I was like, Yeah, that's the vibe
<v Speaker 3>I got from the character, like he's just irritated and
<v Speaker 3>unky all the time. I know, are way off base
<v Speaker 3>on this, so but but are you going to tell
<v Speaker 3>me that you didn't identify with William Walls?
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So here's my problem with William Walls. It's not
<v Speaker 2>that I didn't identify with him. I am a Mel
<v Speaker 2>Gibson fan. The roots of my fanhood are based in
<v Speaker 2>lethal weapon.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so me too.
<v Speaker 2>I mean I've seen a lot of I mean, I'm
<v Speaker 2>not gonna pretend like I haven't seen a lot of
<v Speaker 2>his movies. But he is pretty much Martin Riggs for
<v Speaker 2>me all the time. Okay, So when he goes to fight,
<v Speaker 2>when you know, when he's circling the English and he's
<v Speaker 2>going to go pick a fight, right right, I really
<v Speaker 2>expected him to do a three stooges, pokem in the eye,
<v Speaker 2>slap him in the face.
<v Speaker 3>And but I mean he does. I mean, as far
<v Speaker 3>as ancient Scotland goes, he does that kind of you know,
<v Speaker 3>let's flash him our front and then moon him on
<v Speaker 3>our back, and.
<v Speaker 2>I want to believe I want to like him. Yeah.
<v Speaker 3>And when I when I went to go see Gladiater,
<v Speaker 3>I was just like, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna buy
<v Speaker 3>into this movie.
<v Speaker 2>But it was just huh you literally, you're the only
<v Speaker 2>man I know that doesn't love this movie.
<v Speaker 3>I've never met somebody who thought that Gladiator was better
<v Speaker 3>than Brave Art that.
<v Speaker 2>I okay, Well, well, I mean we're gonna find out hopefully, Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>if you are out there, I mean, because we are
<v Speaker 2>definitely on opposite side of this deal. Yah, Who's right
<v Speaker 2>and who's wrong?
<v Speaker 3>So that's main character. Let's move on, Let's go to villain, right, Okay, Okay,
<v Speaker 3>so I've already said I loved Waquin Phoenix's performance in
<v Speaker 3>this right. There are times that I was just like, why,
<v Speaker 3>he seems like he's kind of doing a high school Shakespeare,
<v Speaker 3>But those moments were very brief, and overall the performance
<v Speaker 3>was really really solid. I think we mentioned it last time.
<v Speaker 3>He was incredibly nervous about this performance, but ended up
<v Speaker 3>getting the nod for the Best Supporting Actor. I didn't win,
<v Speaker 3>but we got the nomination. But he was he was
<v Speaker 3>having to be imbibed by Russell Crowe and Richard Harris
<v Speaker 3>to get him over the anxiety.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was still a young guy.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, yeah, he's really yeah.
<v Speaker 2>I mean I really don't know what his age was
<v Speaker 2>when he filmed this.
<v Speaker 3>I think is in the neighborhood at twenty six.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, okay, and he's out there with Richard Harris.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right, Oliver Reed, yep, Russell Crowe, who's the next Superstar.
<v Speaker 2>I really like the performance by him. I'm not necessarily
<v Speaker 2>a walking Phoenix fand but he does a good job.
<v Speaker 2>And his character is everything that Maximus is not. He
<v Speaker 2>wants power, he wants respect, he wants love, and he
<v Speaker 2>can't get it and he can't get it right.
<v Speaker 3>And I also say this about him, you know, as
<v Speaker 3>far as villains go, most of time, most of the time,
<v Speaker 3>I would prefer to kind of understand where my villain
<v Speaker 3>is coming from. Like, like I like the idea of seeing, oh, hey,
<v Speaker 3>you know, he had a bad he had this bad
<v Speaker 3>experience and that's what's made him the man that he
<v Speaker 3>is right.
<v Speaker 2>Now, just a bad guy.
<v Speaker 3>Well with with him, he has this anticipation that suddenly
<v Speaker 3>gets soured. Are you ready to do your duty for room? Yes, father,
<v Speaker 3>you will not be emperor like really he was caught
<v Speaker 3>off guard, and so I can see how he's frustrated
<v Speaker 3>at the event and kind of turned the way that
<v Speaker 3>he does. He even appreciates his own shortcoming.
<v Speaker 2>He wrote to me once.
<v Speaker 5>Listing the forty virtues wisdom, justice, fortitude, telperence. As I
<v Speaker 5>read the list, I knew I had none of them.
<v Speaker 3>Father, virtues, you wanted these things, but you didn't appreciate
<v Speaker 3>these other things that I do have. And I didn't
<v Speaker 3>have those things, And so he just felt unloved, you know.
<v Speaker 3>And as a dad, you always fear that you're not
<v Speaker 3>giving your kid the right up whatever the right upbringing is,
<v Speaker 3>whether it's love or discipline or whatever. Right. So I
<v Speaker 3>actually enjoyed that you could see that from the villain
<v Speaker 3>and Gladiator.
<v Speaker 2>Right, Well, so the villain from Brave Heart, Yeah, the
<v Speaker 2>King Edward Lunchanks, yes, right, yeah, good bad guy Darth
<v Speaker 2>vade or Esque. I mean he's yeah, he's smart, he's
<v Speaker 2>in charge. Yes, he is strategic and sort of outthinks
<v Speaker 2>him down down the line a couple of times, right,
<v Speaker 2>And I think he's doing bad things, but he's he's
<v Speaker 2>doing his job as a king and takes his job
<v Speaker 2>very serious, which for me, a good bad guy is
<v Speaker 2>somebody who believes what they're doing is right right. It's
<v Speaker 2>just in contrast to what you believe right right.
<v Speaker 3>Well, he wasn't conniving in any way. He's evil through
<v Speaker 3>and through, Like there's you're not getting a oh, I
<v Speaker 3>can see how maybe he came to this path. No,
<v Speaker 3>you just get bad guy, bad guy, bad get bad
<v Speaker 3>guy evil, evil. But he sells it like somehow, and
<v Speaker 3>I think it goes to the chops of the actor
<v Speaker 3>in the age of the actor. He's selling something because
<v Speaker 3>he's a good actor. I mean, he's he is pure bad.
<v Speaker 3>But you're just still you're still like you believe it.
<v Speaker 4>I just patched them before, I said to your wife,
<v Speaker 4>so little rules succeeded, thank you. And while this upstart
<v Speaker 4>wits my arrival, my forces would have arrived.
<v Speaker 2>Well, and you have to be ruthless to protect your kingdom.
<v Speaker 2>I understand all that.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so he does a good job, Yeah, fantastic job.
<v Speaker 2>I didn't like that Wallace and him were never face
<v Speaker 2>to face. Okay, good guy, bad guy Mono Imano. You
<v Speaker 2>at least get that at the end of Gladiator.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and see honestly that that doesn't bother me as much.
<v Speaker 2>I know.
<v Speaker 3>That was Another big problem with me for this movie
<v Speaker 3>is that Maximus's story seemed to only be about I'm
<v Speaker 3>gonna get revenge on commtists. There was no other motivation
<v Speaker 3>for what he was doing. It's just I'm gonna go
<v Speaker 3>get revenge on commerce.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well that's interesting because that's exactly my problem with
<v Speaker 2>Brave Heart. Mel Gibson. His wife gets killed, yes by
<v Speaker 2>Joe Deputy. Yeah, the Garrison right, who promptly exacts revenge
<v Speaker 2>on quickly and severely. Yes, And then all of a
<v Speaker 2>sudden he's like leading the freedom fighters.
<v Speaker 3>There's more to the story. It's a bigger cause.
<v Speaker 2>I mean kind of, but not really. He wasn't really
<v Speaker 2>interested in that initially. He wasn't Oh my gosh. Now,
<v Speaker 2>all he wanted to do is raise a family and
<v Speaker 2>live in peace.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, So let's talk about the beginning of the movie
<v Speaker 3>real quick. Okay. He's a little kid, his father and
<v Speaker 3>brother narrowly escape murder, from Longshanks because they go to
<v Speaker 3>go to peace talks and they're late to the meeting, right, right,
<v Speaker 3>what happens to all of those other guys. They were
<v Speaker 3>there to talk about peace talks with England and the
<v Speaker 3>freedom of Scotland. Right from the beginning of the movie.
<v Speaker 3>That's what's going on, and that's what's is the inspiration
<v Speaker 3>for him as a child.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and he wants to go fight, fight, he wants
<v Speaker 2>to go fight. When he comes back home, yep, they
<v Speaker 2>invite him to go to the meeting, he's like, no, thanks,
<v Speaker 2>not interested.
<v Speaker 3>Right, because he's been educated. He is changed from the
<v Speaker 3>juggernaut let's just drive this kamikaze into war, to a
<v Speaker 3>man who's grown to appreciate using his wits before he
<v Speaker 3>uses his sword. And so he has he has an education.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, that's what I love about it is you've
<v Speaker 3>got you've got an educated guy here. You're in the
<v Speaker 3>midst of old Scotland where you live in rock mud huts,
<v Speaker 3>and right, not for me, right, I mean, it's just
<v Speaker 3>but you have a guy who speaks Latin and French
<v Speaker 3>and who understands the mechanics of war because he's been
<v Speaker 3>traveling for the last twenty years with his uncle Argyle
<v Speaker 3>and learning all of these things, and his decision after
<v Speaker 3>all of that is it is better to have a quiet,
<v Speaker 3>simple life than to go into these exploits. And it's
<v Speaker 3>only once he's forced into the situation that.
<v Speaker 2>He understand I understand. I like the simple revenge story
<v Speaker 2>of Gladiator. It's his soul pursuit. Right now. He does
<v Speaker 2>have the side deal, his duty to give run back
<v Speaker 2>to the people. That's not even it doesn't even come
<v Speaker 2>up it does.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, like there's one scene or is he at
<v Speaker 3>the top of the stairs He's like, this is.
<v Speaker 2>What I want.
<v Speaker 3>I'm like, dude, you can't sell that three quarters into
<v Speaker 3>the movie now.
<v Speaker 2>His no, his, I mean that's a side thing. He
<v Speaker 2>wants to kill convenists. Yeah, that's his thing. Yes, I'm
<v Speaker 2>here to kill commodists. Yes, And how do I do that.
<v Speaker 2>I got to be the best gladder in the world
<v Speaker 2>so I can stand right next to him.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>It's a compelling story. Yeah, and that's what I appreciated
<v Speaker 2>about Gladder Brave.
<v Speaker 3>Heck gets a little convoluted on it's a more interesting story.
<v Speaker 2>Well, his wife and then and then he sleeps with
<v Speaker 2>the Queen of France.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so just satisfying, but I'm confusing. I kind of
<v Speaker 3>questioned the decision to have him sleep with her and
<v Speaker 3>watching with my ten year old, he was like, what
<v Speaker 3>is he doing? Like he was.
<v Speaker 2>Outraged, But did you say, look at her? Do you
<v Speaker 2>see her?
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I'm teaching my child to be a pig.
<v Speaker 2>That's Sophie Marceau Son.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so, but I mean this is this is something
<v Speaker 3>that starts in a twelve eighty, so he comes back
<v Speaker 3>about thirteen hundred, and this is over in thirteen fourteen.
<v Speaker 3>This is fourteen years. I mean, yes, he loved his
<v Speaker 3>original bride, but I mean where he's still a human man,
<v Speaker 3>you know, Okay, and she's still a human woman who
<v Speaker 3>has a man who's not.
<v Speaker 2>That part of the story was satisfying because you know,
<v Speaker 2>he gets a pregnant Yeah, and that's sticking it to
<v Speaker 2>the king.
<v Speaker 3>You know, he's into the end and that's really the
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I get it.
<v Speaker 2>I did. I didn't like, clearly Maximus, his son and
<v Speaker 2>wife were murdered unjustly. Yeah, later on he does share
<v Speaker 2>a kiss with Lucilla, his former lover.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, right, but.
<v Speaker 2>Really Scott was very careful not to make that too sexual.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Ka didn't. He didn't want it to be.
<v Speaker 2>I stay on point, right, You are seeking revenge for
<v Speaker 2>your wife and child.
<v Speaker 3>If only JJ Abrams had made that decision with the
<v Speaker 3>most recent Star Wars spoiler alert, spoiler alert, we've given
<v Speaker 3>you no spoiler alerts, but we think you're smart enough
<v Speaker 3>to have anticipated that movies that are going to be
<v Speaker 3>this old, we're gonna spoil when we're talking about but
<v Speaker 3>at this moment, about to talk about a movie that's
<v Speaker 3>still out in theaters. So if you have not seen
<v Speaker 3>the Rise of Skywalker, turn the volume down and wait
<v Speaker 3>for a minute or so and turn the volume back
<v Speaker 3>up top. Yeah right, so just real quick, Rise of Skywalker.
<v Speaker 3>The kiss should never have happened. I just have to
<v Speaker 3>say that right now. The kiss at the end should
<v Speaker 3>never have happened. It doesn't make any sense.
<v Speaker 2>Of the hour before and after. The kiss shouldn't have happened.
<v Speaker 3>To agreed. I thought you liked the movie more than
<v Speaker 3>I did, But I did.
<v Speaker 2>That's only because I hated Last Jedi. Okay, we actually
<v Speaker 2>Star Wars fans, Yeah, before we get all the hate mail.
<v Speaker 3>On that, Yeah no, no, no, no, I mean, obviously we're
<v Speaker 3>Star Wars fans, or we wouldn't be so passionate about
<v Speaker 3>that's right, the messing of it up. And if you
<v Speaker 3>loved it, you loved it. There are a lot of
<v Speaker 3>people that I admire out there who just said I
<v Speaker 3>loved it, I loved all the action, and I didn't.
<v Speaker 3>But that's okay. We have difference of opinion. And I
<v Speaker 3>enjoyed debating on the qualities of movies obviously.
<v Speaker 2>Right, because we love movies.
<v Speaker 3>Right. So anyway, back to our movie, Let's talk a
<v Speaker 3>little bit just about the setup, just the introduction and
<v Speaker 3>how things go on each of these because that I
<v Speaker 3>think is a big problem for me with Gladiator. All right,
<v Speaker 3>so I'm going to talk about I'm just going to
<v Speaker 3>do a quick bullet point. Here's the setup for.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, now wait a second, Yeah, what for those who
<v Speaker 2>don't know you are a lawyer, your lawyer, You're about
<v Speaker 2>to give me some of your lawyer juju right here.
<v Speaker 2>I'm just a Joe blow movie guy.
<v Speaker 3>Listen, I am not presenting evidence. Okay, I have got
<v Speaker 3>my wife. I shared this with you. My wife when
<v Speaker 3>we're having an argument and all of a sudden, she
<v Speaker 3>feels like she doesn't know how to respond to me.
<v Speaker 3>She's like, you're just using those lawyer tricks on me.
<v Speaker 3>And I'm like, if by tricks you mean logic and reason, yes,
<v Speaker 3>but I had those before I ever went to law school.
<v Speaker 3>But let's just let I'm really we're talking about opinions here,
<v Speaker 3>but I'm gonna I'm gonna try to give you why
<v Speaker 3>I feel the way that I feel. Okay, good, Okay.
<v Speaker 3>So the beginning of Braveheart, you've got that scene that
<v Speaker 3>I talked about where the Scottish nobles are all murdered
<v Speaker 3>and he walks in and is face to face with
<v Speaker 3>these bodies. Then you have you know, his father and
<v Speaker 3>his brother are gonna go pick a fight, just like
<v Speaker 3>he does later on in the movie, and it's not
<v Speaker 3>about winning, it's about letting them know that they're there, right,
<v Speaker 3>And you can see this important aspect in his upbringing
<v Speaker 3>of I know, I know you can fight.
<v Speaker 2>But it's on what that make us men?
<v Speaker 3>Yes, So that's that's a huge deal to me, and
<v Speaker 3>then that impacts how he feels about things later on.
<v Speaker 3>To have those inspirational characters. It's obviously a good dad.
<v Speaker 3>And then just before he leaves, he gets the thistle
<v Speaker 3>by Murraan. It's setting up that love story early. It's
<v Speaker 3>his good education from Uncle Argyle. We see the marriage
<v Speaker 3>of Prince Edward and Isabella, so we've got the setup
<v Speaker 3>of why she is longing for love. Later on in
<v Speaker 3>the movie as well, then we get our villain who
<v Speaker 3>who establishes when the when the princess walks in when
<v Speaker 3>the prince should have walked in, we get that kind
<v Speaker 3>of oh, you're gonna you're going to rule. Then let's
<v Speaker 3>see if you can handle what I'm about to say.
<v Speaker 3>We're going to reinstate the prema noctra doctor. And so
<v Speaker 3>William Wallace, after his twenty years of education, comes back.
<v Speaker 3>He knows Latin, he knows French, and he's obviously an
<v Speaker 3>educated man, but he just wants to be a dirt farmer.
<v Speaker 3>Is a mud farmer?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah kind of like.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, right, And I'm going to come back to that
<v Speaker 3>a little bit when we talk about Gladiator and then
<v Speaker 3>he courts Mured and you get this beautiful love story.
<v Speaker 3>You get the setup, and it's great. You have this
<v Speaker 3>escape in the rain and it's and they're they're totally
<v Speaker 3>jabbing at each other like am I supposed to be
<v Speaker 3>impressed and he then he says something in French to
<v Speaker 3>her and she's like, you know, stand on your head
<v Speaker 3>and he's like, ooh, my kilt might fly out. But
<v Speaker 3>that's the funny stuff. It's a funny porting. They're really
<v Speaker 3>in love, and you get that story. And then Muran
<v Speaker 3>gets murdered and then he comes back into the village.
<v Speaker 3>You know, he's he had thought that she was safe
<v Speaker 3>and was going to the place for them to meet,
<v Speaker 3>but it doesn't happen. And then you see him after
<v Speaker 3>her murder. You see him riding back into the village.
<v Speaker 3>And both my son and my wife were like, does
<v Speaker 3>he know what's happened? And I was like yes, and
<v Speaker 3>my wife's like, well you don't. There's no way you
<v Speaker 3>can know from what's as I understand that this movie's
<v Speaker 3>already three hours long, you just have to get it,
<v Speaker 3>and you're about to get it. And you see him
<v Speaker 3>with cold steel eyes come in there and act revenge.
<v Speaker 3>But that seems really cool. For an intelligent man. He
<v Speaker 3>knows that revenge isn't going to be the end of it.
<v Speaker 3>I understand there will be there will be a reckoning,
<v Speaker 3>and so he has to he has.
<v Speaker 2>To not going to overlook what I'm about to do.
<v Speaker 3>Right, So that is the that's the setup for my movie,
<v Speaker 3>and I think the best setup that we've got. Now,
<v Speaker 3>I want you to tell me what you didn't like
<v Speaker 3>about that setup.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, the romance that it works, Yeah, but they only
<v Speaker 2>spend about five minutes together before he's ready to go
<v Speaker 2>kill everybody.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I understand the anger's she's all he ever
<v Speaker 3>thought about.
<v Speaker 2>You know, and she's beautiful and I and it works
<v Speaker 2>for me. That romance works for me. But I mean,
<v Speaker 2>one minute, hey, we're getting married in secret, you know,
<v Speaker 2>and again he's supposed to be in his early twenties.
<v Speaker 2>The next minute, let's go, We're going to take down England.
<v Speaker 3>It's the next logical step.
<v Speaker 2>It just seemed like the romance was a little it rushed.
<v Speaker 2>The actress did such a good job, and I did
<v Speaker 2>buy it. I did buy the love story, right, But
<v Speaker 2>he exacted his revenge. He did it. I mean, he
<v Speaker 2>he slipped the dude's throat, right.
<v Speaker 3>But the idea is it never would have happened in
<v Speaker 3>the first place had England not been in Scotland doing
<v Speaker 3>what it was doing. And that's why the rest of
<v Speaker 3>the story is necessary.
<v Speaker 2>Okay. Well, as a general idea, I think the movie
<v Speaker 2>is a little bit long, and I think that beginning part, well,
<v Speaker 2>is it necessary.
<v Speaker 3>If you've gotten if you've got a somewhat complicated plot,
<v Speaker 3>it needs to be a little bit longer to be
<v Speaker 3>fleshed out. Now you have a movie that's the exact
<v Speaker 3>same length, and all it is is a revenge story.
<v Speaker 2>It's that the same length.
<v Speaker 3>It's shorter, oh but by ten minutes. Oh my gosh.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, so let's let's let's flip that back.
<v Speaker 3>To the Gladiator. Okay, so you fought in by the
<v Speaker 3>time that nothing happens, tell me about it.
<v Speaker 2>Okay. So when the movie starts, you immediately see Maximus
<v Speaker 2>clearly has charisma. He's well respected, he's good at his job.
<v Speaker 2>He's leading this battle onto the field against the Germania barbarians. Right, yeah,
<v Speaker 2>he is brave. Because the guy says, hey, the catapults
<v Speaker 2>are too close. He's like, nope, the risk is acceptable.
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be leading the charge. We got to
<v Speaker 2>do it. And he leads the charge and has this
<v Speaker 2>great victory. He meets with Marcus Relius, who is the
<v Speaker 2>emperor who tells him, Look, you're so good at what
<v Speaker 2>you do, my son is not worthy. I'm giving it
<v Speaker 2>to you. I'm giving in Rome to you so you
<v Speaker 2>can make sure that you get this back to the
<v Speaker 2>people where the power belongs.
<v Speaker 3>Well, don't forget his big speech to the guys in
<v Speaker 3>the middle of it, because that was before he was
<v Speaker 3>going to give it was at the end of the battle.
<v Speaker 3>They've had their battle. So don't forget Maximus's speech to
<v Speaker 3>is meant did you?
<v Speaker 2>Yes? Absolutely, yes.
<v Speaker 3>Let you keep talking. I'm not gonna you did a
<v Speaker 3>very good job of not interrupting my introduction. I'm I'll
<v Speaker 3>let you keep going.
<v Speaker 2>The one where he's like, what we do in life
<v Speaker 2>echoes an eternity, and if you find yourself with sun
<v Speaker 2>on your face, don't be trouble because you're an elysium
<v Speaker 2>and you're already dead. Right, stay with me, hold the line,
<v Speaker 2>all this stuff.
<v Speaker 3>If you've seen the movie that came out afterward called Elysium,
<v Speaker 3>that makes that line really fack.
<v Speaker 2>No, I that speech to me works. I'm ready to
<v Speaker 2>stand and take a sword and wet my pants and
<v Speaker 2>go do this thing. Yeah right, okay, so yeah, I
<v Speaker 2>think it works. Great. I'm ready to ride horses with
<v Speaker 2>this guy, and I'm ready to go to Elysium if
<v Speaker 2>necessary when he gets this charge by Marcus Aurelius. He
<v Speaker 2>is the only one who knows what has happened.
<v Speaker 3>He's the only one who knows that Marcus.
<v Speaker 2>Raelis once Marcusralis is murdered.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he's the only one that knows that the power
<v Speaker 3>was supposed to go to him and not communists, right
<v Speaker 3>except commonists accept commonists, well, right, right, So the easy
<v Speaker 3>thing would be, I mean, what's the righteous thing to
<v Speaker 3>do in that instance?
<v Speaker 2>You know that he's been the emperor has been slain somehow,
<v Speaker 2>I have the responsibility. He gave it to me, and
<v Speaker 2>you killed him before we could tell anybody.
<v Speaker 3>About this, but you turned it down.
<v Speaker 2>Well yeah, but then it was taken from him. It
<v Speaker 2>would be very easy. Look at what Quintus did. Quintus
<v Speaker 2>look and saw, Okay, I can stick with my buddy Maximus,
<v Speaker 2>who is in big trouble, or I can stick with
<v Speaker 2>the emperor now the heir apparent, and he takes the
<v Speaker 2>easy way out. Maximus could easily take the easy way out.
<v Speaker 2>Take his hand, right, take my hand, I offered only
<v Speaker 2>once yep, yeah, I see, you're kind of the guy
<v Speaker 2>in charge. Now, all right, what does Lucilla do basically
<v Speaker 2>the same thing.
<v Speaker 3>He's the She slaps him first, though.
<v Speaker 2>Well, she makes it known that she doesn't approve of
<v Speaker 2>his choice to kill her father.
<v Speaker 3>How does she know? You keep going?
<v Speaker 2>I keep going anyway, Maximus has the courage to do
<v Speaker 2>the right thing despite the extreme odds against him.
<v Speaker 3>Right, well, that's unquestionably true about both of these movies, right,
<v Speaker 3>keep going because you got to get to you got
<v Speaker 3>to get to the point of the driving force, which
<v Speaker 3>is the revenge. Right. He's not going to get revenge
<v Speaker 3>for the attempted execution, but go ahead and talk about that.
<v Speaker 2>So, so at that point Maximus is captured, communist says, look,
<v Speaker 2>you get a chance to join me, you turn me down.
<v Speaker 2>That's it. So Maximus says, hey, Quince's look at for
<v Speaker 2>my family. Make sure you take care of my family.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, you guy who's betraying me right now? Right?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Quincess, his best buddy makes sense, says, your family
<v Speaker 2>will meet you in the afterlife. Yeah what yeah, I
<v Speaker 2>mean he flips like that. Yeah, So instantly we know
<v Speaker 2>Maximus's family is big trouble. Right, Maximus is a big trouble.
<v Speaker 2>They take him out to executing he asked for a
<v Speaker 2>soldier's death. Yeah, and the three stooges are in charge,
<v Speaker 2>you know, and takes them out rides fifteen hundred miles
<v Speaker 2>back to Spain. Can't get there fast enough, and his
<v Speaker 2>wife and child have been burned and crucified.
<v Speaker 3>Right, Okay, yes.
<v Speaker 2>That is his now one goal in life. Before I mean,
<v Speaker 2>he's briefly suicidal, I would say, he's captured by this
<v Speaker 2>roaming guy who picks up gladators, which that is the
<v Speaker 2>major problem I have.
<v Speaker 3>With It's a huge problem. But okay, so just so,
<v Speaker 3>but that gets us to that same point, right, Yeah,
<v Speaker 3>we've got that basically, it's the same point in the movie. Right,
<v Speaker 3>We've established this is the driving motivator for the remainder
<v Speaker 3>of the movie. Yes, the murder of his family, right,
<v Speaker 3>and say, like for William Wallace, it was the murder
<v Speaker 3>of his wife wife, and then as an after effect,
<v Speaker 3>it has to be getting England out of Scotland, Okay,
<v Speaker 3>because that was I mean, that was the cause, that
<v Speaker 3>was the underlying.
<v Speaker 2>Both are very manly, very worthy causes.
<v Speaker 3>Right. So Gladiator starts off and Even before the movie starts,
<v Speaker 3>you get this Yellow Dreams Works, and I was just like,
<v Speaker 3>why is is this movie going to be in CPA Town?
<v Speaker 3>What is going on here? And so okay, yeah, sure
<v Speaker 3>it was cool, but it prepares you for Hey, we're
<v Speaker 3>either going to be yellow or we're gonna be blue.
<v Speaker 3>I was immediately distracted by Okay, it's blue, No, it's yellow.
<v Speaker 3>Oh it's blue again? Yellow blue? What the heck is
<v Speaker 3>going there?
<v Speaker 2>They did play with the filters, and I was just like,
<v Speaker 2>why are you doing this?
<v Speaker 3>And so then you get this, You get this introduction
<v Speaker 3>to the dog and you're like, oh, this is good.
<v Speaker 3>The dog's going to be involved. No not okay, the
<v Speaker 3>dog's not involved.
<v Speaker 2>Oh and there's about the dog for one second.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, but well there's a bird, but then the bird's
<v Speaker 3>not involved. What are we looking at here?
<v Speaker 2>The dog good? Even the dog loves Maximus. How do
<v Speaker 2>you win a dog's affection? You love the dog?
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so because everybody else loves him, I'm supposed to
<v Speaker 3>love him. I don't like that you.
<v Speaker 2>Don't like Maximus. This movie doesn't work for you?
<v Speaker 3>Well, no, I just want to understand. I want to
<v Speaker 3>have the movie give me the story that makes me
<v Speaker 3>like Maximus. We're presented with him giving this speech to
<v Speaker 3>these guys, which I think is probably the worst motivational
<v Speaker 3>speech I've ever heard. Oh my gosh, hey, good news.
<v Speaker 3>If you have the sun in your face, you're dead.
<v Speaker 3>And if you think about where you want to be,
<v Speaker 3>and that's where you be. You know, except for those
<v Speaker 3>guys who are about to go die because obviously that's
<v Speaker 3>not what they.
<v Speaker 2>Want either, you'll be where you want to be and
<v Speaker 2>you'll be dead either way.
<v Speaker 3>It's okay, rights, that's a great motivational speech.
<v Speaker 2>You'll be out of this mud pit in Germany.
<v Speaker 3>Right. So then it's the headless guys coming in. How
<v Speaker 3>the crap did that guy not fall off the horse?
<v Speaker 3>I mean, not only did he not fall off the horse,
<v Speaker 3>but he made it back to camp with no head.
<v Speaker 2>They say, no, it's ridiculous.
<v Speaker 3>And then the barbarians it's not ridiculous, it is dramatic.
<v Speaker 3>It's stupid, okay, and hey, the good the good news
<v Speaker 3>is that's like one of the one few funny lines
<v Speaker 3>in this movie. As they said no, that one, I mean,
<v Speaker 3>at least, I'm like, okay, I mean, it's ridiculous. But
<v Speaker 3>at least he's making it funny. And then you get
<v Speaker 3>the bad motivational speech. Then the Germanians stand there and
<v Speaker 3>chant for five minutes while the Romans prepare with their
<v Speaker 3>tar and they're flaming arrows and all of this.
<v Speaker 2>It's absurd. It is just absurd, dude, Yeah, you are
<v Speaker 2>digging your own grave. I'm not.
<v Speaker 3>And then you get bad shaky camp in the battles,
<v Speaker 3>and then without I just he's not a moral man.
<v Speaker 3>Give me some backstory on why he's not a moral man.
<v Speaker 3>You know, he's not a moral man. You have everything
<v Speaker 3>you need already, No, he's not even he's twenty years
<v Speaker 3>late through the battle. Twenty years yeah, yeah, so he
<v Speaker 3>shows up, Hey, have I missed the battle?
<v Speaker 2>You missed the war?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?
<v Speaker 2>Right, right, you have everything you need. And then and
<v Speaker 2>then he kills his dad.
<v Speaker 3>Right, and then Marcus Aurelius says he will accept my decision. Yeah.
<v Speaker 3>He really is not in touch with what commonist is
<v Speaker 3>going to do. And the surgeon said he didn't suffer surgeons?
<v Speaker 3>Really did they do surgery? Right there in the in
<v Speaker 3>the tent with all of the candles burning there, you know,
<v Speaker 3>in the very yellow tent, tent. That's double and tender
<v Speaker 3>right there, yellow tant, yellow tent.
<v Speaker 2>Your way off base. You're way off base.
<v Speaker 3>And then what happens Quincus is betraying and when when
<v Speaker 3>Maximus asks for help, he's not only like, not only
<v Speaker 3>going to betray you, but I'm gonna give you the
<v Speaker 3>middle finger. He does. That guy should have gotten it.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, if I'm gonna hate a guy, it's that guy,
<v Speaker 3>right right. And he doesn't get it. He's not through
<v Speaker 3>the whole movie. Does he have any repercussions, and he
<v Speaker 3>should on both sides. But what does he say? He says,
<v Speaker 3>ride until dawn and then execute him, and then gives
<v Speaker 3>the what everyone seems to think is the greatest warrior
<v Speaker 3>of the army to the three stooges, as you so
<v Speaker 3>accurately pointed out.
<v Speaker 2>And so Mo Larry, currently, get on out there, get
<v Speaker 2>on your horse.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, yeah, give me a soldier's death. How about no,
<v Speaker 3>that would have been the end of that one.
<v Speaker 2>And then he guys, they knew this. He was like
<v Speaker 2>a celebrity. And so he's there, he's their commandian officer.
<v Speaker 3>Right okay, And so they put him in a position
<v Speaker 3>where he can grab the blade of the sword and
<v Speaker 3>swing it like a bat and still have his fingers left.
<v Speaker 2>I could see.
<v Speaker 3>I'm I'm like, I can see. Is this going to
<v Speaker 3>be a superhuman man? Is this what this is? Does
<v Speaker 3>he have? Is he iron hands?
<v Speaker 2>I can see where that might cost some trouble?
<v Speaker 3>And then does he kill them all? Yes? Every single
<v Speaker 3>one of them? Right?
<v Speaker 2>Yes?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? And then later on the movie, comodist says, they
<v Speaker 3>told me he is dead. Who the crap told you
<v Speaker 3>he was dead? Quintus, because he's the only guy who
<v Speaker 3>could have said that, right. He was the guy that
<v Speaker 3>sent those guys off. So Quintus, knowing those guys didn't
<v Speaker 3>show back up, God, knowing what would have happened, didn't
<v Speaker 3>say Jack Squatt. So when Thomas finds out later on, hey,
<v Speaker 3>guess what, Maximus isn't actually dead, the first guy he
<v Speaker 3>should be talking to is Quintus going, Hey, what the crap, dude.
<v Speaker 2>You're thinking too much. I do agree logically that somebody
<v Speaker 2>would have missed Millarry and Curly Okay, yes, their commanding officer. Hey,
<v Speaker 2>where's Mullanyker? Okay, Hey wait a minute, weren't they supposed
<v Speaker 2>to kill Maximus?
<v Speaker 3>Right? Where are those guys.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I understand that, but you're thinking too much. We
<v Speaker 2>need to get on with the story, okay.
<v Speaker 3>So then the next the next scene is him writing
<v Speaker 3>as hard as he can with no stopping, and somehow
<v Speaker 3>he hasn't been home in two and a half years,
<v Speaker 3>three years, whatever he said, and somehow the guys who've
<v Speaker 3>never been to his house beat him there.
<v Speaker 2>That's because I don't know why I did it, but
<v Speaker 2>I don't know how they did it any But they
<v Speaker 2>think he's dead, but they go ahead and crucify the
<v Speaker 2>kid and the wife.
<v Speaker 3>So why why would they do that? What would be
<v Speaker 3>the point? The only reason to do that is if
<v Speaker 3>they think he's alive, which obviously they don't.
<v Speaker 2>No, that's the Emperor ordered them to take care well, Quintus, sure,
<v Speaker 2>kill him, kill him?
<v Speaker 3>Get that? Yeah, yes, crucify them. That's a lot of
<v Speaker 3>extra work for nobody who you think is alive to see.
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and the sun squealed like a girl.
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and the wife mowned like a wharp and so
<v Speaker 3>and that again, that brings me to what you've just
<v Speaker 3>talked about. You get a very short romance story with
<v Speaker 3>I mean, honest, it's like you're thirty minutes into the
<v Speaker 3>movie by the time this happens. But you get no
<v Speaker 3>romance story with Maximus and his wife and child. If
<v Speaker 3>we had moments, if we had something more than a
<v Speaker 3>description later on, see his son get trampled by horses.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, is that enough? Yeah, that's enough.
<v Speaker 3>Absolutely horrible, And I understand logically how we don't need
<v Speaker 3>to get a father is going to want to revenge
<v Speaker 3>the murder of his family. It's a movie. I'm supposed
<v Speaker 3>to get that backstory.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, all right, Speaking of his wife and family. The
<v Speaker 2>actress who plays Maximus's wife, Yeah, she's a model. She's
<v Speaker 2>actually Ridley Scott's wife. He married her in twenty ten.
<v Speaker 2>She did White Squall with him.
<v Speaker 3>White Squaw that was nineties, right six?
<v Speaker 5>Yeah?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? Have you seen that?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?
<v Speaker 3>Was she a major part of that movie?
<v Speaker 2>Mmm? I can't remember.
<v Speaker 3>Okay. So then Maximus shows up, sees his burning family,
<v Speaker 3>and then tells be Wan Kenobe that he has no
<v Speaker 3>reason to stay here anymore. Wait a minute, No, that's
<v Speaker 3>a different movie. Isn't different Burning Family?
<v Speaker 2>Sorry, there is a Star Wars connection in this movie.
<v Speaker 6>Then he is picked up by the jawas I mean
<v Speaker 6>not the jawas a guy who's gathering gladiators out of nowhere.
<v Speaker 3>Whose whose medicinal expertise is let the maggots clean the
<v Speaker 3>wound and then I'm a stuff some sand in it.
<v Speaker 2>They would clean it through the seat. Okay.
<v Speaker 3>And as you've pointed out, what a gigantic what the
<v Speaker 3>crap moment is that where he's laying down exhausted at
<v Speaker 3>the burning, crucified bodies of his family and then slave
<v Speaker 3>traders come and steal him. I mean, that's what I
<v Speaker 3>would do if I was a guy picking up slaves,
<v Speaker 3>as I'd go over to the Roman general's house, look
<v Speaker 3>for some over there.
<v Speaker 2>The guy living in Tuscany, So quick star Wars reference
<v Speaker 2>for you, the guy Robert, the Bruce's dad. Yeah, the
<v Speaker 2>guy who's kind of the wizard behind the Yeah, the leper, Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>the leper. His face looks just like the guy from
<v Speaker 2>Star Wars who taps Luke Skywalker on the shoulder and
<v Speaker 2>the canteena and says, I don't like you, right, Marris
<v Speaker 2>Man's buddy. I'm like, hey, those two guys are the
<v Speaker 2>same guy.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's not the same Guy's not the same anchor,
<v Speaker 3>So okay, So there, I mean, they're the they're the
<v Speaker 3>two beginnings. There's the setup for the story, and I'm
<v Speaker 3>already hopelessly lost. You're giving me blue and yellow filters.
<v Speaker 3>You're making no sense at all with any of this stuff,
<v Speaker 3>and I'm not inspired to go fight with you.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, here's a couple of things I just want
<v Speaker 2>to throw in kind of in the middle of our
<v Speaker 2>argument here. I mean, clearly we've drawn the lines in
<v Speaker 2>the sand. But when really Scott as it did the
<v Speaker 2>Roman Colosseum, people kind of beat up, beat up both
<v Speaker 2>movies right for being historically inaccurate. Brave Heart takes it
<v Speaker 2>on the chin because William Wallace, and you know, he's
<v Speaker 2>a man, he's a historical character, King of England, He's
<v Speaker 2>a historical character. Maximus is fictional, right, So when when
<v Speaker 2>Ridley Scott went to the Room Coliseum, he said, he
<v Speaker 2>looked at it and said.
<v Speaker 3>It's too small.
<v Speaker 2>I need to make this jack this thing up right. Also, Maxim,
<v Speaker 2>I thought this was really interesting. When Maximus meets Lucius
<v Speaker 2>right Lustilla's son through the bars, He's talking to Lucius,
<v Speaker 2>and Lucius says, hey, are those horses on your chest?
<v Speaker 3>Right?
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?
<v Speaker 3>Yeah? In the in the movie, does it seem onto
<v Speaker 3>you at all that they're going to let the nephew
<v Speaker 3>of Caesar within arms distance of the gladiator.
<v Speaker 2>I don't have a problem with that at all. So
<v Speaker 2>he asked him about the horses on his armor. Yes,
<v Speaker 2>and Maximus points and he says, this is our gento
<v Speaker 2>and this is Scartar, right, okay, And I know we're
<v Speaker 2>talking about this.
<v Speaker 3>Are you Italian speakers out there?
<v Speaker 2>That was probably a terrible pronunciation of your words.
<v Speaker 3>No, that's not That's not where it was going. The
<v Speaker 3>translation is.
<v Speaker 2>One horse's name is silver and the other's name is trigger.
<v Speaker 3>Right. And for people who may not be familiar with
<v Speaker 3>the Lone Ranger and Roy Rodgers, those were the name
<v Speaker 3>of their horses cowboys obviously that lived much later in life.
<v Speaker 3>But it was a hey, Russell Crowe, Hey how about
<v Speaker 3>we do this? And Ridley Scott said, yeah, go for it.
<v Speaker 2>He's like, you don't think anybody knows He's like, no silvergger.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, except for people who spoke Italian and also were
<v Speaker 3>familiar with the Lone Ranger and Roy.
<v Speaker 2>Rodgers and people who dive into movies for podcasts.
<v Speaker 3>Correct, call me Roy.
<v Speaker 2>That's right. One more thing I did want to mention
<v Speaker 2>Oliver Reid, who plays Proximo. Yeah, he died on May
<v Speaker 2>the second in nineteen ninety nine, which is in the
<v Speaker 2>middle of filming Class, right.
<v Speaker 3>I still had some vital scenes to record.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, and so the insurance company came to
<v Speaker 2>release Scott and said, listen, this is part of the
<v Speaker 2>insurance deal. You can reshoot those scenes and we'll pay
<v Speaker 2>for it. Right really, Scott says, no, that's okay, We'll
<v Speaker 2>just make it work, right yep. So they changed the script.
<v Speaker 2>They actually put a CGI mask on a stun double.
<v Speaker 2>The CGI mask is Oliver Reid at his house and
<v Speaker 2>you can tell, I mean, you can see it.
<v Speaker 3>Yes, See what's the line, are you in danger of
<v Speaker 3>becoming a good man?
<v Speaker 2>Yes?
<v Speaker 3>And he just responds yeah, which is an easy if
<v Speaker 3>I'm going to do an Oliver read impression.
<v Speaker 2>So anyway, he was dead by that point. They had
<v Speaker 2>to film that scene. If you look at it closely,
<v Speaker 2>it's clearly a CGI mask.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. The original storyline, Maximus fights the undefeated gladiator that
<v Speaker 3>was supposed to be Proximum.
<v Speaker 2>I think you talked about the accidental drip. Yeah, I
<v Speaker 2>don't think that that's as good. No, I think the
<v Speaker 2>fact that Oliver Reid's death caused them to write out proximum.
<v Speaker 2>It made the story better.
<v Speaker 3>It did make the story. It turns out to be
<v Speaker 3>a good character.
<v Speaker 2>He does.
<v Speaker 3>He doesn't make it again. He doesn't make much sense
<v Speaker 3>in the movie because he's talking about these guys like
<v Speaker 3>they're all dead and useless, and then he's given them
<v Speaker 3>inspirational speech.
<v Speaker 2>Is about shadows and dust Maximus.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, okay, when the crowd whin your freedom's right, you
<v Speaker 3>know I own you and I could give you your
<v Speaker 3>freedom right now. But go ahead win that crowd and
<v Speaker 3>then we'll talk about it.
<v Speaker 2>Okay. So here's one more thing. I wanted to mention.
<v Speaker 2>The real live commtist, the actual historical figure, when he
<v Speaker 2>would have these gladiator events. Yes, they would throw bread
<v Speaker 2>into the crowd, right, which they show that in the movie.
<v Speaker 3>Right.
<v Speaker 2>He would also throw snakes, Yeah, which was like.
<v Speaker 3>What Yeah, he was he was a bad guy. There's
<v Speaker 3>no question he was a bad guy. That that is
<v Speaker 3>historically accurate. I don't think that long Shanks was as
<v Speaker 3>bad as they portrayed him in Brave Heart, but commedists,
<v Speaker 3>the real comedist was not a good man. Interestingly, he
<v Speaker 3>was killed by a gladiator. It wasn't out in the arena, though.
<v Speaker 3>Do you know this? Do you know how the story
<v Speaker 3>of his death?
<v Speaker 2>I know the guy's name. Okay, you know the guy's name.
<v Speaker 3>I don't know his name now narcissistia Okay, so narcissist
<v Speaker 3>was a gladiator, but comtists. He had a list of
<v Speaker 3>people that he wanted dead. I'm thinking of Billy Madison
<v Speaker 3>right now and Steve with his lipstick on. But he
<v Speaker 3>would make lists of people that needed to be killed
<v Speaker 3>because he had dislike for them for one reason or another.
<v Speaker 3>And one of the people that was a mistress of
<v Speaker 3>his came across the list and saw her own name
<v Speaker 3>on the list, and she was the one that was like, hey,
<v Speaker 3>gladiator over here, let's see what we can do about this.
<v Speaker 3>And he went and strangled him in his bath.
<v Speaker 5>Though.
<v Speaker 3>Wow, yeah I.
<v Speaker 2>Never heard that story. That's really cool.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>I did have one interesting fact about the Brave Farm.
<v Speaker 4>Good.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So the end scene, right, the disemballement scene, Yes,
<v Speaker 2>very famous, very dramatic, very moving scene, very moving scene,
<v Speaker 2>and really it's the highlight of the movie the Prisoner,
<v Speaker 2>which is to say, oh what.
<v Speaker 3>That when he cries freedom. That's that is certainly that
<v Speaker 3>moment for sure. Okay.
<v Speaker 2>So when they actually we've talked a little bit about
<v Speaker 2>how people were leaving the movie and they were going
<v Speaker 2>to use all the tools and it was scary and
<v Speaker 2>people walked out. So the actual William Wallace before he
<v Speaker 2>got there, right, so they castrated him in his jail
<v Speaker 2>cell and drug him three miles and then he had
<v Speaker 2>that to look forward to.
<v Speaker 3>And they then then they did do the They drew
<v Speaker 3>and quartered him and took his various body parts to north, like.
<v Speaker 2>His head on London Bridge, right yep.
<v Speaker 3>On a spike in London Bridge. Ship. So it did
<v Speaker 3>not have the effect that they intended.
<v Speaker 2>I guess not.
<v Speaker 3>There's I mean, these movies. We could go on and
<v Speaker 3>on about these movies, the battle scenes which were from
<v Speaker 3>my perspective, much better in Brave Heart, much more realistic.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So I like Braveheart. The battle scenes were good.
<v Speaker 2>I was interested, I was the story was compelling, the
<v Speaker 2>romance was there. Everything works. It's just a little bit
<v Speaker 2>long and a little bit convoluted for me, okay, okay,
<v Speaker 2>and just me in general, I don't like big battle
<v Speaker 2>scenes because it just kind of all smears together for me,
<v Speaker 2>so like, I mean, I'm going to really hang myself here.
<v Speaker 2>But like the Fellowship of the King or you.
<v Speaker 3>Know, Fellowship of the Ring, The Ring, Yes, Return of
<v Speaker 3>the King.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, those movies just a whole big miss the CGI battle.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, So on that point, just to touch on that
<v Speaker 3>with Brave Heart, there wasn't a great deal of CGI
<v Speaker 3>to be had at that time. But I mean I
<v Speaker 3>say that, I mean Jurassic Park was coming out of
<v Speaker 3>the in this time period as well. Sure, so obviously
<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of CGI that could have been done,
<v Speaker 3>but they didn't do it. They did they did a
<v Speaker 3>very limited amount of CGI, and to me that was huge,
<v Speaker 3>Like I can't detect it they used that looked realistic
<v Speaker 3>except for that one scene where he's jumping into the
<v Speaker 3>water and you're like, is that a Barbie horse? The
<v Speaker 3>CGI to me in Gladiator, I could see it, like
<v Speaker 3>I couldn't always see it. They obviously did a bunch
<v Speaker 3>of stuff that I didn't.
<v Speaker 2>Notice, but they were little, but it was noticeable. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>I mean when the tiger takes a swipe of that guy. Yeah,
<v Speaker 2>but I don't care because tigers are Tiger's in fighting
<v Speaker 2>are interesting.
<v Speaker 3>Right, but I mean the giant colisseum and all of
<v Speaker 3>those things. It just didn't I was like, oh, here's
<v Speaker 3>a computer generated thing. And I am not against CGI.
<v Speaker 3>I just don't want to know that it's there. I
<v Speaker 3>want it to be so good that I don't realize
<v Speaker 3>that it's there. Okay, And I realized it was there.
<v Speaker 2>Well, just just kind of wrap up.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.
<v Speaker 2>I think both stories are good. They're both compelled. Obviously
<v Speaker 2>they're good. They're both Best Picture winners, right, we talked
<v Speaker 2>about that. Ninety five for Brave Heart, two thousand for Gladiator.
<v Speaker 2>These are well loved, well respected movies. I just find
<v Speaker 2>the Gladiator story for me, the character of Maximus is
<v Speaker 2>somebody I identify with I aspire to be.
<v Speaker 3>Okay, so to me it is it's the opposite. I
<v Speaker 3>want some complication. I want to be surprised and intrigued.
<v Speaker 3>With Gladiator, there wasn't anything in the movie that I
<v Speaker 3>didn't see coming, Like, there were no surprises to me
<v Speaker 3>at all. It was like, oh, here's that scene where
<v Speaker 3>he's about to wipe out the guys that are supposed
<v Speaker 3>to execute him. I know that it's about to happen.
<v Speaker 3>With Brave Heart, I got surprised after surprise after surprise,
<v Speaker 3>the betrayal that happens, the tactical things that happened. It
<v Speaker 3>was not foretelling the movie to me. It was, oh, hey,
<v Speaker 3>I'm experiencing this as happening, and I'm living in the moment.
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's fair.
<v Speaker 3>Stayed ahead of me, That's that's I guess what I
<v Speaker 3>was the short way to say. It's stayed ahead of me.
<v Speaker 2>And that's fine because and I'm okay with that because
<v Speaker 2>Gladiator is a straightforward revenge story. I did read online
<v Speaker 2>people are like, this is just a steven Sagall movie.
<v Speaker 2>It's the same story of revenge. I don't care. The
<v Speaker 2>story is compelling, the setting's compelling, it's well made. I'm
<v Speaker 2>on board. I don't care.
<v Speaker 3>And we didn't really get to go into the soundtracks.
<v Speaker 3>But obviously you love the Hans zimmercenttra absolutely, I don't.
<v Speaker 3>I love the James Horner I mean you can. You
<v Speaker 3>will walk away from Brave Heart and the tune will
<v Speaker 3>be in your head. There's no tune on the Hans
<v Speaker 3>Zimmer I mean there's there's. His style of music is
<v Speaker 3>not really one to give you a tune most of
<v Speaker 3>the time. But if I've got a hero. I want
<v Speaker 3>the hero to have a theme.
<v Speaker 2>Well, it is a little bit frustrating that, like Indiana
<v Speaker 2>Jones has the Raiders March, I can whistle it right now, right,
<v Speaker 2>but this is just just moves through.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. I mean the movies that we really love people
<v Speaker 3>had themes. Even Marty had a theme.
<v Speaker 2>But I don't care because the music in this movie
<v Speaker 2>is so good. I got the soundtrack at home and
<v Speaker 2>it's awesome.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Grit, I mean, yes, they were mud farmers, but
<v Speaker 3>they were dirty and it was real dirt, like this
<v Speaker 3>was an a an effect of being in Scotland where
<v Speaker 3>it rained nine days out of ten. They were actually muddy.
<v Speaker 3>Everybody was so clean, like even the slaves were clean.
<v Speaker 3>And in Gladiator I didn't have that grit. I wanted
<v Speaker 3>grit that I didn't get. I wanted it to be dirtier,
<v Speaker 3>and it was, like I said at the beginning, my
<v Speaker 3>compliment was it was dusty, but it was not dirty.
<v Speaker 3>It was a pretty picture. And if I'm talking about
<v Speaker 3>guys hacking each other to death in the Ring, I
<v Speaker 3>don't want pretty picture. I want some grit and I
<v Speaker 3>didn't have it in Gladiator. Okay, and then last thing. No,
<v Speaker 3>two last things. First, last thing, and I've already said it.
<v Speaker 3>William Wallace had a cause and the cause was freedom.
<v Speaker 3>It wasn't just a revenge story. That's a more compelling
<v Speaker 3>plot line. You want simple revenge story. I want not
<v Speaker 3>just a simple revenge story. Let's talk about freedom. His
<v Speaker 3>speech to his troops, after you've been following him for
<v Speaker 3>a full hour and you see what he's done. You've
<v Speaker 3>gone through battles with him, you've gone through his loss,
<v Speaker 3>you've gone through all of that. That's a moving speech.
<v Speaker 3>And he takes it right out of Henry the Fifth.
<v Speaker 3>I fight, and you may die.
<v Speaker 5>Run and your love.
<v Speaker 3>At least a while.
<v Speaker 5>I'm dying in your beds many years from now. Would
<v Speaker 5>you be willing the trade all the day from this
<v Speaker 5>day to that for one chut, just one chunt. Don't
<v Speaker 5>come back here and tell all right, then they may
<v Speaker 5>take our life.
<v Speaker 3>No fact.
<v Speaker 2>And it was cool A mel Gibson talks about how
<v Speaker 2>every time he yelled, his horse would trot. Yeah, and
<v Speaker 2>that's why he's back and forth and moving around, and it.
<v Speaker 3>Pumps that intensity up. It pumps that intensity up to
<v Speaker 3>see and fighting with that horse and having to yell
<v Speaker 3>his line.
<v Speaker 2>It's cool, man, it's cool.
<v Speaker 3>It's all cool, Okay. And then finally, yeah, last thing.
<v Speaker 3>And I said this about the Rise of Skywalker. I've
<v Speaker 3>said it about other movies. Gladiator had no comedy.
<v Speaker 2>It didn't have any comedy.
<v Speaker 3>I can't have a movie with no comedy in it.
<v Speaker 3>I mean, even Schindler's List had funny moments. Yes, Braveheart
<v Speaker 3>has a ton of funny moments that have to break
<v Speaker 3>up that intensity of the fact that they're hacking each
<v Speaker 3>other to death. And by the way, I don't remember
<v Speaker 3>if we mentioned this, the extras in this movie were
<v Speaker 3>the Irish Reserve Army and they had companies and they
<v Speaker 3>were local I mean, he's kind of like, you know,
<v Speaker 3>local soccer teams. They had it in for each other
<v Speaker 3>a little bit. There was a lot of competition going on,
<v Speaker 3>so the scenes were as realistic as they are because
<v Speaker 3>those guys really trying, were trying to beat the crap
<v Speaker 3>out of each other.
<v Speaker 2>Right, I think that's cool too.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so I gotta have Steven in there saying a lot.
<v Speaker 5>Tells me he can get me out of this match,
<v Speaker 5>but he's pretty sure your.
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, I'm okay with Maximus being super pissed
<v Speaker 2>and working his way for one single cause it's super
<v Speaker 2>satisfying to me. Yeah when he sticks that knife and
<v Speaker 2>commence's throat at the end, Yeah, I'm like sweet anyway,
<v Speaker 2>all right, So that about doesn't.
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that's it. I mean, we we've covered it. Yeah,
<v Speaker 3>we're going to convince you and you're not going to
<v Speaker 3>convince me. But hopefully the folks out there will see.
<v Speaker 2>The flaws in your movie. Side with me, all right,
<v Speaker 2>Please wait in on this and social media. Yeah, hit
<v Speaker 2>us up on Facebook and Twitter, at Shirley Podcast, at
<v Speaker 2>Shirley Cup Podcast on both of them. You can find
<v Speaker 2>us also on YouTube. We have the Surely you Can't
<v Speaker 2>Be serious YouTube channel.
<v Speaker 3>And I just would like to go ahead and give
<v Speaker 3>a shout out to our buddies over the Thirty Somethings podcast.
<v Speaker 3>We love them. They continue to they continue to give
<v Speaker 3>us a great podcast, and they continue to promote us
<v Speaker 3>on their podcast, and we just.
<v Speaker 2>We love you guys. That's right, The Illinois Contingent super
<v Speaker 2>appreciate you guys. Yeah, we like you, Spaniard. We show
<v Speaker 2>cheer for you, all right, signing off, all right, thanks
<v Speaker 2>good CD.
<v Speaker 3>Good CT Jason. AllMusic, images and movie clips are used
<v Speaker 3>for the purposes of commentary and education in conjunction with
<v Speaker 3>the fair Use agreement under the US copyright law.