Puppy Culture Potluck: Ep12 - What’s the Best Age to Place Puppies?

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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,

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and this is a Puppy Culture
potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics,
we bring the conversation.

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This week's question is about

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optimal age for placing puppies.

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And here it goes. This is the question.

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I'm not a breeder,
but I have a good friend who is and uses

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Puppy Culture.

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And I've helped her whelp
and raise a couple of litters.

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So I like to learn all I can.

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I have my own Puppy
Culture raised pup and I love him.

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But I have an honestly curious question.

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I've known breeders who keep their puppies
till eight weeks

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and some till ten weeks,
some even until 12.

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What are the deciding factors

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for how long pups stay with the breeder?

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Does it depend on breed,
the specific litter,

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or does it just come down to breeder
preference?

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I'm honestly just curious.

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And to me, there is no wrong answer.

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My dog's breeder keeps them till ten.

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But my good friend that I've worked
with on her pups keeps them till eight.

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Two different breeds.

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So I'm just curious
what other breeders thoughts are on this.

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Great question.

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And it hits all the high points.

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I'm going to zoom out.

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Okay, and give you the big picture
direct answer, which is that

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if you are a Puppy Culture breeder
or doing a program

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similar to Puppy Culture,

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where you're really working
with the puppies as a breeder,

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the optimal

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time to place those puppies

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splits the last part

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of the critical socialization period

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so that the breeder has

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two weeks
and the puppy owner has two weeks,

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so the last month
of the critical socialization period

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is split
between the breeder and the puppy owner.

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So just taking it as the, let's

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just say, very average breed.

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That would probably mean
the critical socialization

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period, best practice figure,
it ends at 12 weeks old.

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And that means that the breeder would be
sending the puppy home at ten weeks.

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So that puppy owner has that last
two weeks in the critical socialization

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period
to customize the socialization experience.

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But why do we recommend this?

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We recommend this
because in our experience,

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and this is what Puppy Culture
is, advocates, I should say,

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breeders being more experienced

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are generally in a better position

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to navigate the puppy

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through all those firsts
in the socialization period.

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So first outing away from home,

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first playdates with outside dogs,

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first vet visits,
first walk in an urban area,

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walk in a country area,
first intros to livestock, first anything.

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You know, there's just a lot of ways
that you can go wrong.

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Okay.

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With all these first experiences
and again, the breeders being more

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experienced are going to be quicker
to read the puppies,

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quicker to know,
you know, when to go and when to hold,

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and if the breeder can just lay in

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those first impressions with the puppies.

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It just paves the way for the puppy owner.

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Similarly, there's a lot of things

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like house
training and crate and confinement

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training that puppy owners
just really struggle with.

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And we breeders can do this
like breathing air.

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Okay, so the difference between placing

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an eight week
old completely on house trained

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and never been introduced to a crate
or confinement away from its littermates.

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The difference between and placing
a puppy like that and placing a puppy

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at ten weeks that has had two weeks
of learning to sleep in its own crate

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and learning to be in a room by itself
and with its other litter mates.

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It's night and day, okay, Night and day

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and again, breeders just it's easy for us
and it's hard for the puppy owners.

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Things like

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grooming, leash walking, you know,
there are things that puppy owners

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just struggle with
and we find second nature.

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So when you're looking at this

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end of the critical socialization period,

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you know, as a breeder, you don't want
to hold them for the whole thing

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because then, you know,
if the puppy owner,

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let's say, has a boat
and you don't have access to a boat,

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that the puppy is not going to be
acclimated and customized,

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the socialization

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is not going to be customized
to what the puppy owner's lifestyle is.

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So I do think it's very important
that the puppy owner has the puppy

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for some of the critical socialization
period.

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So splitting those last four weeks
to me is the best of both worlds.

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Another reason

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I like to keep my puppies
until ten weeks old

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is that typically my puppies are going
to have a fear period somewhere between

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eight and nine and a half weeks,
sometimes as early as seven and a half.

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So let's say seven and a half to nine
and a half weeks.

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It's you know, it's a pretty big range.

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And again, as a breeder, I'm experienced.

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I can see it.

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I recognize the signs.

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I know what to do. Okay.

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I think it's asking the puppy owner
a lot to recognize the fear period

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and to recognize how to shepherd the puppy
through that.

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So, again, I think that the puppy
is probably going to do better

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in an experienced breeders, or at least

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a motivated breeders
hands during a fear period.

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Now. I'm going to circle back a little bit
because again, I touched

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on, well, why not just have the breeder
keep the puppies

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through the entire,
you know, critical socialization period?

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And, you know, the answer is,

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first of all, the customization
of the socialization experience, but also

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those last four weeks, I mean,

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they're really changing from

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babies who are almost don't
really have an identity.

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Okay?
They're they're just part of this litter.

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And a litter is an organism
and they're really morphing from that

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to individuals that really need one on one

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individual attention and a lot of it.

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And so it comes to a point,
especially if you have a large litter

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where you have to start
making decisions about physically,

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how many hours, you know, do
you actually have in a day

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as a breeder
to spend individually with each puppy?

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And it becomes a point of diminishing
returns as as the puppies get older.

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And at some point, especially if you have

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an experienced home or,

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and also a home,
I should say, with a good,

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what we call a lead pony,
an adult dog that can act

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as sort of a role model,
something for the puppy to model on.

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You know, I mean, that can be a good bet
if you have a large litter

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to start moving some of those puppies
maybe a little bit earlier than others,

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but in any event,

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it does reach a critical point
where you just literally as a breeder,

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don't have the hours in a day to devote to

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a nine puppy litter to really do them
justice.

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And again, so at that point, the puppies
really need to go to their homes.

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Now. That sounds great.

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And you may all be thinking, “Well,
there it is,

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you keep the puppies until ten weeks.”
But it's not that easy.

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Not that easy at all,
because a couple of things.

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First of all, developmentally,
you know, puppies are at least

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two weeks different average by breed.

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And I talk about that study
all the time where they found

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a sixteen day difference in average time
between breeds

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that the puppies
showed an initial fear response.

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So that would be around
the five week fear response.

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And at the risk of being boring,
I'm also going to mention the study

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that showed that 95% of German Shepherd
puppies had a fear

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response
at five weeks and only 5% of Labradors.

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So you have to take

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into account breeder expertise here.

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Like my my friend
that breeds Norwich Terriers

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at 12 weeks old, they're still nursing,
whereas my friends that breed German

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Shepherds at nine weeks old,
they are seriously taking

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on their other littermates
and starting to mistrust novelty.

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So those puppies are approaching
the end of their critical socialization

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period, you know, at nine, ten weeks,
whereas the Norwich Terriers

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are still very neotenous,
they're still babies at 12 weeks.

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So you
so there's just no answer to the question.

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Okay.

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Except for your expertise
as a breeder to clear the fear period

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and then split that time between you
and the puppy owner

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in those last four weeks
of the critical socialization period.

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So the puppy owner gets a crack
at customizing

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critical social socialization
and also gets the puppy

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when it's in need of intense individual
training and attention.

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And you have already had a chance
to lay in all those foundations and first

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experiences that can be stumbling blocks

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for the average puppy owner.

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Now, all that having been said,

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I just want to pause here and say
there is no magic

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in warehousing puppies
for an extended period of time.

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Okay.

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So if if you're a breeder
that for whatever

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reason, you're either unable or unwilling

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to do active socialization of the puppies
and you know, it happens.

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We have crises in our community where,

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you know, some a breeder will fall ill
or a breeder spouse will fall

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ill or there's some other calamity
and the breeder just can't do the work,

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just holding on to the puppies for,
you know, two more weeks

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than you normally would
is it's not doing the puppies any service.

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Okay. So

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I'm not going to lie to you,

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keeping the puppies for me from, you know,

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8 to 10 weeks, there are times really
where you just feel like,

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okay, I'm broken, I can't do this anymore.

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It's intense. It's a lot.

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You get up every day.

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I mean, keeping those puppies
on a schedule, doing things,

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enrichment, training, it's
it's like a full time job.

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But it is so fantastic at the same.,

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by the same token, it is such
an exhilarating, wonderful time.

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But it is nerve wracking and you always
feel like you're not getting enough done.

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So, you know,
that's a different conversation. But

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the bigger point

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is if for any reason you can't do that,
okay,

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or you don't want to, or you just
you just sure you can't.

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Even if it's just like,
I don't know, I don't have the expertise.

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I can't do it.

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The puppies, you know,
are probably going to be better off

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going to their homes a little bit earlier
where at least they're going to get some

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individual attention
and puppy class and training.

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So looking at this
from a slightly different perspective,

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from the puppy buyer's perspective.

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So you're a puppy buyer and you're looking
at this breeder and you're wondering,

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you know, what is the responsible
age to place puppies?

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What's the best age to place puppies?

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And is this breeder following
that responsible ethical placement age?

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And the operant question is not so much

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specifically what age
the breeder is placing the puppies as

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what is the breeder doing with the puppies
while they have them?

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Are they keeping them long enough
to complete

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important protocols,
or are they just warehousing them?

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Are they actually doing the work

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or are they just throwing toys in a pen
and leaving them to be?

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Are they being careful
to keep them through their fear, period?

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So these are the kinds of questions
that as a puppy owner,

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when you're looking at a breeder,
you want to ask yourself basically,

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what are they doing with these puppies
while they have them?

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Okay.

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Now, there are some outside
limits to this.

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I think it's safe to say that a breeder

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who's looking to place puppies
at six weeks old is not doing

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what needs to be done with those puppies,
at least in terms

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of what we at Puppy Culture
believe should be done with puppies.

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And when I say

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Puppy Culture,
I just always hasten to add, listen,

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there's lots of good breeders,
great breeders who don't do Puppy Culture

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or never heard of Puppy Culture,
but they do essentially similar protocols.

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It's not that I made up the protocols
and Puppy Culture.

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I mean, there are things that breeders
have been doing,

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you know, forever that were taught to me
by other breeders. So

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the point is six weeks.

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I'm just saying you can't be responsibly
placing those puppies

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because you could not possibly
have been doing what you need

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to do with those puppies
in that amount of time.

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So all that having been said,
there are occasions

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where I would place a puppy

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at a younger age than ten weeks.

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For instance,

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if I had a giant breed

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puppy, okay, If I was breeding
giant breed puppies and I was sending

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a puppy home with someone
that had to fly the puppy home

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and the puppy at seven weeks
was small enough to fit in to a Sherpa

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that could fit under the seat
in the airplane

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so the owner could take
the puppy home in the cabin.

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But if we waited till ten weeks,
the puppy would be too big

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and would have to go in cargo in a crate.

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I mean, I'm sending the puppy home
at seven weeks.

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I'm not waiting until ten weeks.

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I'm not giving a puppy
that experience at ten weeks old.

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Again, you know, then it comes down
to ethically placing the puppy right?

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So I'm not going to send a seven week
old puppy home to a first time puppy

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owner that doesn't have another puppy in
the house or a dog in the house, rather.

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But, you know, an experienced dog owner,
maybe even a professional dog trainer

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that has, you know, two really good lead

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pony, shaper dogs at home, heck, yeah,
I'm going to send that puppy home

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in seven weeks, over ten weeks to save it
that experience of going in cargo

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and, you know, it comes up frequently
that people

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say, well, they shouldn't be separated
from their littermates so young. And

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it is true that

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I would not separate six weeks old.

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I wouldn't place a six week old puppies,
but just, you know,

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breeders, we do split the litters up
frequently when we co-breed litters.

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If we have a big litter, we frequently
will split litters at six weeks old.

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So it's not like
they have to stay with their mother.

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I mean, normally, again, for us
the dams are done with them at five weeks.

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So by six weeks
we do some cut times, share

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the workload just so that we can do more
with the puppies.

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Because if you split them
between two breeders, you know,

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if there's just that many more hands
to work with the puppies.

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And the reason I mention it is
because I want to distinguish being placed

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as an individual puppy,
like taken out of the litter

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and just that one puppy taken away
and put in a home versus

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splitting up litters,
which we do all the time.

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You know,
as a closing statement on this, I'm

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just going to say I get
I get how frustrating this is.

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Okay.

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As as a puppy seeker, I understand

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you have a specific breed in mind
and you're looking for a breeder

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that's doing all these best practices
as far as you know,

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what they're doing with the puppies.

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And when they're placing the puppies,
it it's frustrating

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because it's hard to find it
all in one package.

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You know, it's it's hard to find a breeder
that has puppies available

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that's in the breed that you want,
that's doing all the right things. And

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I have experienced this myself recently.

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I was trying to help my sister
find a kitten of a certain breed and,

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you know, finding one

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that of that breed, that

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all the correct health testing
was being done,

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that they appeared
to have good temperaments

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and that the breeder was doing more
than just warehousing the kittens

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and then shipping them off
at a certain date.

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I mean, it's not easy.

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So unless you're flexible about breed,
in which case I recommend

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you just get on the Puppy Culture
discussion group and look at what people

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are posting and go for those breeders
and or rescue foster people

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that are really doing a good job
in doing the work and showing you

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they're doing a good job
and doing the work in the group.

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You know, it's difficult.

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I get it. It's difficult.

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Also, as a breeder, I

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understand how frustrating this answer
is because,

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you know, we all just want to be told
what to do, right?

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I mean, we all want to be told,
you place the puppies at ten,

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you know, place puppies at ten weeks.
That's what you do.

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And this is your list of things that
you do each day going up to ten weeks.

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And this is how you do it.

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But, you know, I'm
just telling you it's it's not that easy.

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I mean, you can certainly how shall I say,

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you can put together a program
and do it that way and do it the same way

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every time. Right?

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You can put together a program and say,
I don't care, This is how you do it.

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You know, if you have X breed,
this is how you do it.

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And you do it this way
and you do it every time.

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Or you could just come up with a universal
program and hand out sheets and say,

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This is what you do on day 27.

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That's what you do on day 28.

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And you know what I mean?

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You'll be right probably 80% of the time.

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But you know that other 20% of the time,
if you don't use your judgment

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and if you're not nimble about
switching it up and flexible,

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you know, you can wind up

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doing damage to those puppies.

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You know, to the point
I just had this situation recently

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where I was placing a puppy with someone
who was going to have to fly the puppy.

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And I told her

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she needed to buy a flexible ticket
because things can change.

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You just don't know when that puppy

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is going to go in or out of a fear period
or what's going to happen.

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And it's so happens
with this particular puppy.

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He wound up growing so fast,
so early, like way bigger,

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and it was a repeat breeding
and these puppies in this litter were like

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25% bigger than the puppies

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in the first breeding
for no reason at all.

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So I called her and I said,
You're going to have to change your ticket

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and come five days earlier because
this puppy is going to outgrow his Sherpa.

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He's not going to be able
to fly in the cabin.

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If we wait until,

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you know, when we were going to do it,
which was ten and a half weeks old.

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So there you go.

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That's a final tip, not necessarily
about when to place your puppies,

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but if you're ever having people fly
in to get puppies,

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make sure they get a flexible ticket.

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00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,080
If you like this podcast,
you'll love our puppy

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00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,400
course available at madcapuniversity.com.

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00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:15,200
Breeders, we have a course for

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00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:20,360
you too at madcapuniversity.com com
and if you're interested in sending home

349
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:23,960
a copy of our puppy course
with your puppy owners,

350
00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,200
we offer a nice breeder discount on four

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00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,520
or more copies of the course.

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00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:32,280
Well, that's it for this time.

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Thanks for listening.

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00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:48,440
Bye bye.