#58 - Brandy Clark - Singer, Songwriter, Artist and Neat Person

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Speaker 1: All right, welcome to episode fifty Bobby Guys with Brandy Clark. I'm a big fan of glad you came in. Oh, thanks for having me. It's always at first a little weird when people come in and I'm a huge fan of because I'm always a little bit intimidated. So well, no need to be intimidated by this girl. Well, I appreciate you coming in, and we're the same because we just finished working out, so there's no shame in either one of us in our in our workout pants. I like that, That's what I mean. I love that's I love radio more than TV for that reason. Could you wear whatever you want? Yeah, and it's gotta be nice. I was gonna I was gonna ask you this before the podcast, but I'll ask on it. What time does your day start? Three am? So imagine if you had to be in hair and makeup like I mean, even though guys don't have to be in hair and makeup like girls, but if you were on a news guy. I have friends that do morning television and they have to be in hair and makeup, and they have together even earlier, and their clothes matter. You know, it's ready as much or a visual thing now because everything's online. But still it doesn't really matter for me that much, which is unfair because Amy and my co host, it does matter to her and she has to look a certain way in her mind or she just gets beat down. It's not a fair thing. It's is that because again I can go to work in sweats and in not shape for four days, and then if God forbid, she has put makeup on, people are just like they go after anyway. My high school English teacher I remember, asked, why do guys Why do girls look so bad when they don't wear makeup and and guys don't like guys look just fine? And I said, well, if guys weren't makeup every day and then they didn't, they wouldn't you know. I always wish the guys could wear makeup, or you guys didn't have to wear makeup at all. It would be an equal billing kind of thing, because if we were, how goold look and I would be whenever I go. Because I just did a festival and a TV show on Saturday and they put the cover me in my up, I look like Twilight. I look great. They have me had so much makeup. I was like, man, if I could look like this, The problem is if I wore that much makeup really and everybody else doesn't, then you know, yeah, you're you're the guy that wasn't you know, because Ryan Secrets was a lot of makeup all the time, and you can tell when you see him, you like, well, he weren't a low of makeup, but man, he looks good. Does look great? I'm gonna tell you, I don't. I look great a lot of makeup I think everybody does. Early on and living here, one of the first times I worked with a real hair and makeup team, I asked them, who's the most naturally beautiful woman you've ever worked on? Oh, that's a good question. And they looked at each other and said to me, Oh, hold on, I like to play this game, so is it an artist? Well, I'm just gonna tell you the answer. Oh, you're taking the game away, Okay, go ahead, there's no such thing. That's that's a cop out answer. Well, I agree, but it but it did. It does put things in perspective for you because there is a lot of pressure. Um, like you were saying about Amy feeling like she needs to look a certain way, and if you're on camera at all, you had you hopefully you have the benefit of a professional team that you know. I had to hire someone because again I was on camera. Yeah, and it ain't cheat. Nope. Sometimes don't you wish you would have gone into that? No? I don't. Yeah, I and I have friends to do that, and I think we all search for whatever fulfills us. That doesn't fulfill me. But but when I do put on makeup, I always go, man, I do look good, but it's a lot of work. Yeah. Well, they know how to make your eyes pop, and they can make you look ten pounds thin or real quick some of that heavy duty contouring. Do you travel with a makeup person at all? I don't you know. I've had to learn to do my own well enough to go on stage. I couldn't do it well enough for camera, but I can do it pretty well um on STAF just for my own shows. And makeup artists I work with a lot gave me a few lessons and he said to me, now, false eyelashes are tough, so don't don't get frustrated. I grabbed that false eyelash and I am not a hair and makeup girl. In total tomboy popped it on first go, and he says, he steps back, and he says, well, everybody's got a gift, we have found yours. So do you wish maybe you would have done that a little bit? Well, I don't love hair and makeup, but when I get the bills, let's see what they make a day. You know what's funny to me about you is that because I'm a big fan of your music. The way before I knew you, I was just like, well, I was drawn to your music because it's so like real life. It's like where I come from, a really tiny, poor, poverty driven town in Arkansas. It reminded me of home and my mom and my grandma. And I would hear your music and I would say, wow, she must be like like really sad all the time. You're so delightful, Like every time I've met you, Like I listened to your music and it like puts me in this emotional place. But you're so delightful as a person. Oh, Bob, how do your how are you both of these like how do you pull this out of you? Well? I think I am both of those things pretty equally, you know. I mean, I have a lot of sadness I always have, you know, I put on my Twitter Born a little broken Hearted. I've always been drawn to the broken hearted. All from the time I was a little kid, I loved a sad song. And you know, I think there are just some people that are a little sad, and I'm one of those. And I'm also a lot happy. You know, it is that balance. And and for me, I grew up in a real small town in Washington State and probably a lot like the town you're from in Arkansas, just different accent and and and saw a lot of a lot of hardships and and had tough things happened in my own family. And and I think the way for me to deal with those things is to channel them into my music. When I play this song, and I played this one one of the more recent ones from years that I that I really love. Ship, three kids, no husband, right, just was my mom like when you sing songs. And my mom died of drug abuse in or forties, but again, for a long period of time, it was me, my little sister, my mom and her struggling but raising two kids by herself. And maybe it's just that your music almost talked to my selfish brain she's got. It wasn't three kids, I was two, but it was like I was just it's like such a real story in your songs. And then when I meet you, you're always so awesome and I'm like, man, is that the same person? It's this like Wizard of Oz. Well I turned to I turned a corner as a songwriter. Um, and I still remember the day, you know, when Nashville there's so many songwriters and you want to impress your peers, you know, you just you you love the because because the same way you're talking about me and my what my songs due to you? There are lots of songwriters that they're did that for me, and I wanted to write songs that would impress them. Who did that to you? Well, oh man, just give me a couple to come off the top of your head, like who would you see and be like, wow, this is crazy that I am either writing with or spending time with. Well, you know Mark Sanders, who was at the same publishing company as me. But I hope you dance and that's to me, that's one of best songs ever. And I would hear the songs that Mark was turning in and mine were nowhere near that. And I wanted to write songs that that Mark would be impressed with. And um, and then you know people people like Hillary Lindsay. When before I had hits, Hillary Lindsay was having a ton of hits, and I remember thinking, man, I wish my songs were as good as Hillary Lindsay's. And I didn't even know her, you know, and and different, but you know Don Schlitz. I worked up above Don Schlitz in a building one time, and I just wanted him to love uh well, I would hope that he would love my songs one day. And and because a lot of those people wrote songs that made me want to write songs. And it hit me one day. I was I was going in to write, and I went through the bank to make a deposit and the girl that was the teller, I didn't know anything about her, but I thought, for some reason, I feel like it was like a god moment. I thought, what would she write a song about? If she were going to write a song, you know, what's her life? And I started to pay more attention to my friends that weren't songwriters, and even to my own self instead of trying to write something that was going to impress somebody, right, something that was that they were going to say, that's me, you know, like when you say you hear three kids and it makes you think of your mom. I wrote that with Lori McKenna. We did our job. If you feel that, and I have people you know, it moved me to tears when it happened. It might move me to tears to talk about it now. But I was playing a radio show in Jacksonville, Florida, and I came off the stage and I was walking back to the car to go to the hotel, and this young guy who was probably chase me down and he said, I just want you to know that that song you have three kids, no husband, that's my mom. And you know that's when I played that for her. You know, she cried and I could tell that. I mean, it meant everything to him, and and that wasn't my story growing up. But but it was like, God, we have hit something here that that hits people enough that this guy would take his would chase me down a come down to this little this little show I'm playing, and be chased me me down to the car I'm getting in to tell me this in tears when someone comes up to you and tells you that something that you have created has done something to their life. I mean, there's no greater compliment than that. No, there's not. And then you know, on the funny side, the funnier side of things, I'll have women come up to me and they'll say, how did you get into my diary? Like you know, with songs that are a little bit more tongue in cheek, you know, how did you how did you find that out about me? And both things, both things really hit me. But you know, since you mentioned three kids, I thought of that story and and just yeah, it's it's the power of human emotion. I think you have just such a great way to tell And again I heard song the first time, I was like, man, this is like my mom. And I think a lot of America, a lot of rural America, feels like this is their mom or their aunt ship cigarette out on the back. It's like a hundred degrees in here? Can we make it not a hundred degrees somehow? I don't know why it's hundred degrees in here? Game of Company because it's a hundred because you know, we got working out now we're sitting in the shower and the sun of the steamer and yeah, if that's what we want to call it, then then fair enough. When you say you wanted to write songs like the people to impress the people that you want to jumpress, what was the first song you wrote where you're like, man, this one is so good. I want them to hear it. Pooh, you know, I probably don't even remember it, and I'm sure it wasn't great, because what I realized is when you think something's great, it's it's usually not. It's when something's true for me. Now you know now that I've written songs for a long, long enough time and to know when I've a lot of times when I really have something, a lot of times it's when I don't want to play it for anybody because it's so vulnerable that if somebody doesn't like it, it's going to really hurt my feelings. That's usually when I've written something really good. Tell me a song that's really vulnerable that you were like, man, I'm so nervous about putting this out. Oh that there's a song on my record h called Since You've Gone to Heaven. My new record, Big danis Small town and and that one, to me is just real, real vulnerable for me because it came from I lost my dad right before nine eleven, and he was he was killed in a work accident and and and at the time, I remember it was in July, and then of course happened in September, and I remember watching the TV and still being really raw in my own grief and then the whole country's grieving and thinking, hand, since my dad has died, the world was gone to hell, and thinking that's a song, but it was too close to me to write it. And then many many years later, I met um a great friend and great collaborator, Shane mcinally, and he and I were driving home from a gambling trip to Tunica one night, and I said, I've always wanted to write this song called since You've Gone to Heaven the Whole World has Gone to Hell, and he just loved it. And I said, but it's just there's just no hope in it, and he said, I don't. I don't think it matters that there's no hope in it, Like I think we should just write it. And so we did. And and so even though not all of that's true, that you know, we drew from both of our experiences. It's very vulnerable to me and very you know it's sad, and you you know, it's hard to put yourself out in that sad sort of way. You're a sad kid. I've never been. I don't think I've ever been what people would say, oh she's sad, you know. I think people, I hope most people feel like you do, like, oh she's delightful. When I meet you, when I hear your music, I think she's me. I love sad songs like I'm in love with sad song, my favorite song, as You're Sad and when I and I think that's what draws me to you, not that they're sad, but that they're so vulnerable and authentic feeling. And a lot of life is sad. I always say life's a dark comedy, you know, and and um, you know when you say vulnerable. A great piece of advice I got from a great songwriter when I first moved to town was a guy named Richard Lee, and he wrote Don't Make My Brown Eyes Blue and many many, many hits. And he said to me, right what you don't want anybody to know about you? Because some everybody else feels that you know, and that's what it's crazy to hear you talk like that as a songwriter, because I tried to do in radio and I tried on my book. Was like when I wrote this this book right, and I was like, man, I'm really putting stuff in here that I don't think anyone will understand. Substance these problems that I went through my mom and her dying, and there's a lot in there, and I was like, no one's gonna relate to this, and nobody's gonna relate to this. And I found that so many people came up to me and we're like, man, that's exactly seven eight percent off, butw my life is. And I was stunned because I didn't think anybody I felt so alone, and by putting my soul alone out there, I never had felt more like a group as I grew up with something, If that makes sense totally. I think that's why singers like I mean, my favorite singer of all time is Patsy Klein, but I would compare Adele to her in that when you hear them sing and there's an ache in their voice, you feel less alone in whatever it is. It makes you ache, you know, And I think that's why we like to hear those things on repeat. Now, maybe not everybody as much as is as much of a glutton for punishment as you or me, I am sure, Like, what's your favorite sad song of all time? You think like I can put Everybody Hurts some r M on and just put it on a repeat. Oh yeah, and just just take it in and just lay there and take it. Makes me feel not good, but it makes me feel like somebody also understands sometimes. And I don't feel like I'm a sad person, like I've really seen that way, but you know, some people who are real sad are real happy. I feel like I find trying to find love in weird places. I don't think I got a lot of love from the traditional I didn't have a dad, and my mom was always in trouble, you know, jail or drugs, and so I use performance in order to find some sort of love. And so for me, look what you're doing to me? Now, what's happening? Why? What? Why are you doing this? This is not about me? Well know that you know another really really one of my mentors and people I looked up to two is a guy named Rory Burke and great songwriter. And I remember him telling me anybody who wants to do this that has they have a hole inside of them that will never be filled, and they think it's going to be filled by applause. And I think there's a lot of truth to that. And I feel like I had an idyllic childhood. You know, I had two parents who love I always say my parents were three percent parents And what does that mean, Like they gave it three you know, not a hundred, not even percent. I don't ever remember a game that they weren't there. They would take my brother and I to music lessons that were thirty five miles away one way. Um My dad would get up at three in the morning to go to work, but he never There was never time that I asked him to come out and shoot baskets with me that he didn't. And so I don't have I can't say that I had a a bad, like a hard childhood in that way. Um, I did have lost you know, I lost my dad and I lost both of my grandparents who were real important to me in a four year period. Um, but I was also a little bit older. But I still think that those kinds of things are deep hurts that don't that don't really go away. I think I played since You Having on my radio show because I just know it from something I came in and played it after after Orlando. That's what it is. Because I'm like, you're telling the story. I'm like, I know the song and telling me the story about it. But I'm like, no, I know this song came and played on the show. It was a somber day spoke. It was just walk in and play it. And there was this weird like deja vu that what you're talking about this song? And I'm because I'm trying to turn it up, and I was like, I know what this is, and now listen. I listened to the record a hundred time. If there was I love this song. Now now I know why I love love it because you can't have played it right in front of me. Yeah, this is really good, Brandy Clarks. Here, let me talk about one Flowers for a second. So Mother's Day is just around the corner and the countdown clock is ticking, and the Mother's Day one eight hundred flowers dot Com bouquets or guarantee to show you all, I'm just how much you appreciate her. 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How about I'll play a song. I'll do another one. No, you hold on a minute. That was our recorded By the way, how about better Dick two. The band Perry. There's this song he wrote this one right here, dark song, then a dark love flowers like you even make love songs dark. You know what's so funny is when we when we wrote this, I wrote that with Trevor Rosen and Shane McNally, and Trevor said we should title it. It was called put Me in the Ground. Originally the band Perry changed the name, which was really smart, but Trevor said we should call it put Me in the Ground and in parentheses a love songs. Well, I'm okay they changed the name of the song. They did, Yeah, they asked us first, I've never heard of that. So okay, you write the song, you give them uh whole what'd you call it? Originally? Um, put me in the Then you give them put Me in the Ground. They hear the who saying the demo, Casey Musgrave saying the demo. So they hear Casey sing the demo, They're like, we want the song. They come to you and say would it be okay? And if you say no, do they Well, I don't understand the process of changing the title of a song. You know, at the time None of us cared what it was called as long as they cut it, you know. Um. And they also asked Crazy to ask for an for a new verse the day before they went in to record it. They wanted, you guys right another verse and UM. I remember I was sitting at Cracker Barrel with Shane and we called Trevor and over the phone we wrote that last verse. And I'm really glad because it made it better and and they had the foresight to know that it would. Um, but yeah, we did. We we we jumped through a lot of hoops for that one. Whenever you cut the demo to this, was it as violent? It was? It was? Yeah, the records very close to the demo is it's pretty and it's a song. I mean, of course it wasn't you know. It was a demo, so she couldn't be quite what was probably more than dollars And it's been a long time, but uh, but it was pretty pretty aggressive, you feel like, Um, yes, I did. In fact, I fought really hard to keep holding it for the band Perry because other people wanted it and I felt like it was I did feel like it was a big song and I don't know, I don't know why I felt it. I just did. I thought it was really different. And it's a different way to tell a love story, which is it feels like every love song, every way you can tell a love story has been told until someone else held a new way. Isn't that crazy? Because you said, and you try to write something, love you if it's a poem, if it's a story, if it's a song, and you're like, man, every love song has ever been written. Then all of a sudden, someone comes out of nowhere with a brand new angle, and you're like, how did I not think of that? I know, and I remember thinking that. When I heard this song, I was like, Wow, darkest coolest love song ever. Dark is coolest love song ever. I love that. So you write a better dick too. And the first time you heard when when you heard their version of it, we're like, man, this is a jam, Like did you know it would be a single? They give you that thing like we want to cut it. Well, it was between that and a and a couple other songs for the single and the crazy thing. The first time I heard it was on the c M as Trevor and I got to go to the c M as that year are As cap Reps took us as their dates and so we got to hear it live that first time. Did They did not play play it for you first? They hadn't yet. No, I mean it was that new. It was one of those situations and they held it for man, I want to say, eighteen months. But then they held a song for a year and a half that I didn't drive you insane? Well it did, and it was through a couple of producers because it started out they were working with Frank Ladelle and they held it what's Miranda Frankly, Yes, Miranda Lambert's producer, great guy, and and so they were they were working with him. Then they cut a record with Rick rubinste everybody everybody, Yeah, and it wasn't cut with that. Well, then they were cutting they were gonna cut four singles with Dan huff is the way I remember it, and that was one of them. And so I didn't know, None of us knew if it would be the single or not. We found out it would be. They performed it on the c M as. I feel like it went for ads the next week. You know, something thrill to go watch your song for the first time at them. Yes, it was a huge thrill. There's a great picture of me and Trevor like and we just look like little kids hugging each other so excited over it. When you're watching them, do that, are you kind of like, Okay, I can pay my rent for a bit more? You get that feeling like for me, that was the That was the first hit I had, and I've had a lot of things that were supposed to be hits. I do remember thinking, for once, it's going to be easy, you know, because I would get songs on artists, a lot of newer artists, and my mom would call radio stations, you know, trying to get him to play at all that. And and I remember her telling me that she had looked on the media check ad list and couldn't find it because it was at the top of the you know. And she said, what do you think that means? Since I said, I think it means it's gonna be easy for once. But it almost wasn't because it was terrible. Um, the song came out so November, the song comes so released right around then. Well then we had that terrible Sandy Hook school shooting. It hurt the song, but it was Holidays in the charts frozen. The song was able to recover after the first of the year. But I thought, oh no, not only was this a terrible tragedy, but it's going to kill my song if something like that happens. And I guess I should know this because I work in radio, but I don't work in the programming side of it like I work in the Let me try to talk and say funny things or say things, but they just want to They'll stop doing songs about death. Period. They stopped. They stopped playing it for a couple of weeks. Anything that had to do with that, yeah, wow. And so and I had heard of songs getting getting you know, getting killed for lack of a better word, over things like the Oklahoma City bombing, and you know, things that were of a darker nature. Um, just because they don't want to offend anyone at that point. And I understand that I'm not on that decision level. I didn't even I didn't know that. I just remember seeing all of a sudden it was down four spins overnight, you know, like, oh no, because they just chopped it and that came back, came back with it. Yeah, So how about this one right here, Mom is broken heart. So yes with Kasey Musgraves and Shane mcinalan and him. You know, I'm seeing a theme here with with you and Shane. Yeah, you guys. You guys write last songs together. By the way, Shane's been in and Shane Shane, I've been on the road together. I love Shane. Shane's amazing. Shane is one of the most talented humans I've ever met. Why what what separates him? Well, I mean, just take away his talent as a singer and a writer, and you know, he's just he's got great commercial instinct A and but I think Shane, in my opinion, Shane's biggest talent. Why he's able to have so many hits with so many different people. I believe he brings out the best in everyone. You know, when you're in a room with Shane, you're you're gonna get the best you and I and I. That's not just me, that's that's a lot of people. And he's a very generous collaborator. You never feel stupid to say anything in front of him, you know. And and I think that's huge. And I think he can see talent in a very raw stage. And and I was just telling somebody the other day about Shane. One of my favorite things about him is it doesn't matter who doesn't believe, he keeps believing. You know, a lot of people are real fickle. They'll believe in something until they hear a lot of nose or you know, that's not gonna work. If Shane believes in it, he just believes in it. And I've been fortunate enough to be one of those people that he really believed in when I had nothing going on, and he he's just he just can see it. Tell me about the song, you guys, sit down, How does the idea come about? So that was an idea. Shane actually had that idea for a long time. He wanted to write a song called at your mom is Something. He didn't know what the something was, and I remember saying, man, hold that for me, please, because I get what that means. You know, I didn't know what the something was either, but I love that, like you know, an ancient mamas whatever. And uh So, he and Casey and I were writing one day and and Shane was talking about his sister going through this breakup and how she wasn't handling it. The way that her mom thought she ought to And I said, maybe that could be that anc your mama's whatever. And we just started throwing it around, and I do I don't remember who said broken heart, but I do remember everybody thinking that wasn't um it wasn't different enough. But we ended up on it and and it was a very you know as a We wrote it in a day, and it was remember it was a We really fought to make it as good as it could could be. And and I thought, you know, this good song, and I think Shane thought the same thing. And Casey really really felt something with that song. And she went home and she did some did like a two guitar tracks and some handclaps, and sent the the sent it to Shane and I and it it was then it sort of was like, oh wow, this is really something, and and she was going to she did record it for her first record, and then Miranda recorded it and she ended up singing on the Miranda version, and the rest is history. To sit in a room with people, is there something about actually having the idea. Okay, it's a co write or there are three of you, but if you come in with the idea and everyone's like, that's a great idea. Is there a little bit of like you feel pride that you were able to bring the idea in that everyone's working on. Oh I think so. Yeah. I mean, and it's you know, I'll tell you it's it's for me. It's hard to get to be as into somebody else's idea, conceptual ideas it is my own. And I think that's something that is pretty common. So when someone else says an idea that really hits you in the same way. For me, if I say an idea it really hit somebody. I know, it's good because it's like, Okay, it's it's good enough that whatever they whatever their ideas are, they want to jump on on this um. But it's also I mean, the idea. I think the idea is a huge portion of it. But the way somebody else sees the idea different from you can be what unlocks it. Have You got someone bringing an idea and the idea was great, and you finished the song and the two or three and you feel like, man, it wasn't idea And I didn't really think contribute as much as they did and we finished the song. Oh yeah, I mean, and you kind of feelt guilty because you're like, man, I know I'm a third of this song, but it wasn't my idea, nor did I really well the other way. Yeah, I've had days where I don't. I don't usually I don't feel guilty when that happens, because then there are days where where you know, I was talking about Rory Burke earlier, he told me some days your biggest job as a co writer is just to keep somebody in the room who's really on it that day. And so I've been both things. I've been somebody keeping somebody in the room, and then I've been that person who's really driving the train. And probably nine of the song is me. So I think it all equals out what I What I don't. What I do feel real bad about is when somebody throws out a great idea and you don't nail it. And I've been known to say to that person, look if it's just me, and then in fact it happened recently. I feel like I did not bring anything to this. If you want to take it and write it with somebody else, do it. And it happened in this guy. He then called me later on and said, are you sure, And I said, I'm sure because to me, that's karmically bad, you know. I mean, it's just some ideas are great and they need to be written as great as they are. And so if I'm not the right person, then by all means right it with someone else. So I'm gonna keep all names out of this story. And the artist isn't even in our format. But there's an artist and he cut a song by one of my buddies and he changed one word. I was like, I want to be a co writer because I'm changing one word. It seemed to me like the artist changed the word just to be a co writer of the song one word. If someone does or has done that, how do you react to that? Because he's he was like, he was like, you know what, Okay, it's a major artists. It's not a yeah, well yeah, I think you have to. I think it is. But if since we're since we're talking hypothetically, we'll use we'll use artists that are outside of country. If Adele did that to me, i'd let her cut it, you know. And you know what it was, somebody is so big that I think that had a factor into why now I'd probably lose a lot of respect, you know. I know, And I've always thought, man, she was brave. Is I've always heard that Elvis wanted to cut I Will Always Love You, but he wanted to be he wanted to be listed that he's either as a writer, or he wanted Dolly's publishing. I don't remember what it was. But she wouldn't do it, and I've I've always thought, man, that was a brave, brave move that Ellis like, how ballsy do? And that's why dollarsy Dolly. If you're that ballsy, you're either Dolly or you're just you end up not making it because it was the d that's crazy. So anyone done that to you or they're like, okay, that's code word and we want some some of this this song any credit. I really never I've never experienced that. I do think in Nashville that songwriters get a lot more respect than in some other towns. It's weird too, because songwriter friends of mine in California they split their percentages up a way differently than the Nashville split. Like generally speaking, if you write a song with three people, it's everybody gets a third of the song. It's not like that with anyone that writes. I have to get five percent of us. All. Well, and I was out, I went out before the Grammys, and I was in l A for a month and and had the opportunity to write with some people out there, and and one guy was explaining these song camps to me that they do where there might be fifteen people and they might be just for there might be three people in five different rooms, but everybody has everything of everything, not everything, but they split it up fifteen. Wait, that's why they're that's why I'm pop songs. You see so many writers, was he was. That's why he was explaining it to me. Now, I've never written for the pop market. And and that's just one one guy's version of it. But he's very successful, so I would guess that he knows what's going on. So I'm trying to picture this. There are fifteen people and they're all in these different rooms writting all these different songs, so when they leave, everybody's attached to every song. Yes, that's the way he explained it to me, Like heub lit a song camp. Okay, so like a writer's retreat, let's say in our format, Yeah, exactly. I can give you a fine example. At the time, I wish that would have been the case. So when when Casey Musgraves was making her first record, there were five of us that went on a retreat. It was myself, Shane, Josh Osborne, Luke Layard, and Casey and we decided the way we would do it as two people would write with Casey and then the other two would write while while three people were writing. So the first we drew we drew names in a hat. So the first the first trio was Aush and Shaney, Casey and Luke and I were stairs. So Luke and I write this fun song called I Drink to Get Drunk. We come downstairs and Shane and Casey and Josh have written Bear Go Around. So I mean, I would have loved to have had my name on that, just for being up there messing around with Luke write and Drink to Get Drunk. That's funny. I mean it stinks, that's awesome, It stinks in an awesome way. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. I mean we were blown away by what they had done. Did you want to have like when you're one of those retreats where it's off all you guys. You listen all the songs, even the ones you didn't write. Not always, I mean I think they were just really they knew they had something really cool, and so so they wanted to play it for us. We didn't play our song for them. He didn't play drink to get drunk for them? How about this? And I can remember, I'll play because you wrote this one, follow you my favorite song. I got in trouble because I played every hour one day, just did NonStop because nobody played ready just wouldn't play it. So I was like, okay, squirt, I'm gonna play every hour that it was. Listen. I can't in a little a little too rambunctious, but I was just I was playing it constantly, and I loved this song, and I hated that radio didn't embrace it. And it made me so upset that radio didn't embrace this song and it wasn't like this monster hit as a writer. Did you Were you angry at the establishment in any way for not accepting something that really was a fantastic in every way? Well, you know, I try not to get too angry. I get I can get angry every things. I when I kind of when I when I got angry, not angry, but when when I would just kind of throw my hands up. Is I can play songs I've had that are hits. You played a couple of them minute ago. When I play that, it's like I've written Bridge over Troubled Water, you know. And so there was I mean things to people like you who played it every hour somehow got out there and it's just a good song. I mean, thank you and uh so, I mean I was very disappointed, yeah that it that it wasn't a hit, but um but it did still reach people, so that's a that's a good thing. And it was CM a Song of the Year. I guess. I think it's the lowest charting song to ever be a Song of the Year. I was shocked by that, genuinely were shot shot shocked. Um had didn't expect at all. You know. Usually you sit there when you're nominated for something and I never get nervous until they read the nominees. And that's the one that's usually when I think, oh, wow, we could win. You know, I didn't think that. When I don't, I do not remember. Um wow, I can't remember when they say following your era, though, like you were just confused. It was just like what you know, I mean, jumped up and down and was excited. But yeah, it didn't hit me. It's still sometimes I forget, like I'll be talking about, well, you know they wrote see they wrote see him a song of the year, and then I'll think, oh, well, I mean, so did I you know, because it just doesn't seem real and it doesn't seem like to me, doesn't seem like a song of the year type song, you know, like Humble and Kind was. Except okay, let me I counterpoint that for a second. Why I think it does seem like a song of the year because it has a message. You're right, it does have that. So maybe sonically to you, I don't know why you would think it's that song because well, I mean, or the charting position. No, you know, what it was is I always think of song of the years as like Humble and Kind that was just song of the year. I drive your truck, girl crush. Yeah, it's they're usually ballads, That's really what it is because balance a lot of times the message they are able to get out because they're slower and you hear the words. Look, I'm glad it was a song of the Year. You know, congrats. That's awesome. I have a couple other cases songs that um and I'm like, as far as current artist, god in case is my favorite current artist, like period. So just so, you wrote this babies, and you wrote this with her and Shaney dandies. When you guys get together, they're like, okay, let's just put out, let's make another hit. Here we go together here a lot of idea throwing out, you know, and that came from follow your Arrow, came from something that was said while we were writing it. And this one, I'm sorry. I'm sorry to depart such a good song. Oh, Confetty, we're already falling into the I want to talk about some of your stuff now as an artist. So how about I have so many songs here that I just love. Let's just go, let's stay rety current. I forget how much like Till the Party. Oh it's such a I know, it's such a great song and it's dreaming, but it's like I get when you finally get it, you get it if that make it, like I think forever, I just didn't understand because I never had anybody that I was like but then once you finally find somebody that it doesn't matter, that song makes more sense. Yeah that's true, because you may not, because I don't think the first time I heard it, I was like, oh, that's a cool song. It's a nice love song. I met someone and I was like, I finally get it, like nothing else kind of matters, Like we're kind of the only thing that matters to us in this little circle right now. That's so that's a great feeling. And so yeah, there's something about like all your music is so real. I just wonder where it comes from. Love can go to hell, Love can go to him so angry, every sad and frustrate, isn't happy, And like I hear all of this coming about the song. You know, that's an interesting I was talking about how an interesting point back to what we were talking about earlier with collaboration, how that was my idea. But I heard it like love can go to hell, like hell in a handbasket, like fall apart. And I said it to Scott stepakof my co writer, and he loved it. He goes, yeah, it's like love can go to hell, like you tell him love off. I was like, man, I didn't hear it like that, and that's awesome, Like, let's do both of those things. And I think that's the beauty in it. And then you know, I have to have to tip my hat to Jay Joyce on that who produced it. He it was a straight up ballad and he he produced it in a way that made it move and it made it more interesting and made it sonically as as great as I think it is lyrically. Girl next Door. This was the first song on the new project came out. It was the first song I heard from the new project, was the first single, y'all Out, y'all favor Oh you Out? That's one to me when it came it sounded sounds like a different than other stuff that I heard you do before. Did you feel like it was? Well, see, it's funny. And I did have a few people that were like, oh, Brandy's gone pop and I never heard pop. Yeah, yeah I didn't. I mean, it doesn't sound pop to me either. But it had a few people, a few fans who were mad um, but they got they got over it. But it didn't feel that different to me. But it's probably because I had lived with it for a long time and I didn't think it was all that different from like Stripes off of my first record, But when I listened to it, it's like, oh, yeah it is. It is different, and but it was different when it was written. It wasn't like we went in and said, oh, let's make this, let's make it this, let's make it more aggressive for radio. It was that's also very close to the demo. Um it's just just what the song was talking about stripes, because I love stripes. That dragger not off anywhere. There's no crown fashion fashion. They only thanks saving is that I don't look good. I mean you smile Like I played it and you started smiling. Yeah, I love it because it's that it's tongue in cheek and and I always say, like, I think women there's there's a lot of talk about women not being represented enough on the radio and things like that. I feel like as women were lucky because we can paint with a female colors like a man could never even joke about that. I'm gonna shoot you no, you know, just wanted to be funny. But I think it's just I think about making the video, how fun that was, And it's still a fun song to play every night. People people love that song, so you're not right now with Charlie. So when you're playing, and do you play into the songs that you wrote and didn't record. I haven't been much on this tour, but I but I definitely do sometimes and if somebody really like I played a show in UM in Annapolis and my guitar player was sick, and so it was just me and so I came out and I played the first three songs and then I said, Okay, I'm on my own tonight. Whatever you all want to hear, I'm gonna play. And the first thing somebody said to swallow your arrow, So I played it um if somebody, If somebody really wants to hear something that I've written for someone else, I'll do it. But this tour has mostly been me playing the two records I have, and then also I placed a lot of songs that influenced me to write. We have a portion of the set. I always have Charlie come back out and he and I go back and forth and play we have a theme like the other night, and he'll call out the theme. Chest Hair Country was the theme, and so he played Conway Twitty song and then I played a Dolly song. I said, you know, she just doesn't happen. She doesn't have a chest. I don't think there's any hair on it, but you know, so we just start doing that kind of stuff. So it's a lot of that and then our own stuff because we've had Shane's sat therefore and Charlie sat there before, so and I and I know both of them relatively well, considering how I don't know really anybody. But how good is Charlie? Like, isn't he He's wonderful? You know. The other night he played Sweet Music Man and it made me cry. That's one of one of my favorite songs. And I told him when he was done, and I wasn't saying it for the audience's benefit. I mean I got lost in it, and I I said, that's one of my favorite renditions of that I've ever heard. I mean, he's just he's such a not I mean, he's not a great guitar player. He's a tasteful master guitar player in my opinion. You know what he chooses to play, it's beyond great. That wouldn't be a good adjective to describe his guitar playing and then his singing is like John Randall Vince Gill, like that high, pure vocal sound that that not a lot of men have. And it's just it's real special. Talk to me about because you asked me what day? What time my day started? Like your life, let's say, when you're in town. Well, hopefully it starts out at the gym. It doesn't always a little bit that like gym morning, gym today. It didn't because I I've been on the road so much and I haven't had a real day off in a long time. But I don't have a lot of time here. So when I'm here I like to write, and so I went and wrote. Um. I usually start writing it like ten eleven up, usually eight and and honestly, i'd wake up earlier, but I have to stay in some sort of a road rhythm because a lot of times I go on at like nine thirty and so you got your wine down after that. I'm sure you know about that. You're Oh, it kills me. My schedule flip flops because I'll go on at ten fifteen sometimes and I'll do an hour and fifteen minutes or so by the time i'm bed it's one m and I wake up at three am, So how do you do? You just start drinking coffee. Not I don't drink any coffee. Oh, I just hurt. I'm in a perpetual sleepiness. It's a fog and the only time it ever lifts during the entire years on vacation. I literally hit a wall today because I've been going NonStop since January. Want to say, may something I don't know and I just fele like from l A and so I hit a wall today for the first time, which is like, oh, because my schedule flips. Just like you're talking about, you have to get into your groove, so you try to time yourself to still wake up around the right time. Yeah, like tomorrow we're driving to Athens tonight. Bus calls at midnight, and tomorrow I'll get up at eight and I'll write, you know, because I try to write on the road. Sometimes I'll do skypewriting the protince with how do you feel about this? This skype writes? Do you feel like you can get good stuff out of that? Written? Anything? For you know, for a short time you know it's it's not. I've learned to treat it like um, like okay, we've got an hour versus the way you sit down and write in Nashville, where you have several hours and just get start sketching something out. But but I've also decided to take the road and force myself to write more by myself, because I used to do that more and even a lot of songs I've co written, I started out by getting down a road a little ways by myself. And and so I'm like, okay, you've got to this road thing you're you're in it now and if you want to live in both worlds, and because for me artistically, there's nothing for me without songwriting. And so it's like I've got to and I find myself I get a little depressed if I'm not writing. So okay, you just gotta make it work. If it's in the back of the bus, if it's in a dirty locker room, wherever it is, carve out the time and do that, and my head space is better. When why why do you feel like you have to write? I just think I need it. I feel like therapy because I spent a lot of time with therapy. Sime with therapy. Yeah, okay, So do you feel like it's another form of that I feel you know what I feel like. I feel like it's that, but more than that, I feel like it's exercise because I believe that we're all given a certain number of really great ideas a year, and it's kind of like you got to go to practice to play in the game, and if you're not, if you're if your chops aren't great, you'll mess up that idea. You won't give it what it needs. So to me, it's it's more like practice, like going to practice every day and staying sharp, because if I don't, I notice it when I come back into town and I write, I noticed that I'm not really on my game because I haven't been I haven't been doing it. But if I'm doing it every day, even if it's just for an hour, I notice the difference. Once the last time we walked into it right, and you're like, well, I'm kind of nervous to write with this person because I want to say something stupid. Oh man years, because if you know what, I quit, I quit walking in like that, because it's if if you can't say something stupid, you're not going to say something great. I mean, Bob Dupiro have at Boba pierro On. Yet, oh you should get him. I mean, he'll have you in stitches a But he's just he's just a genius and a master craftsman. And he always says, really stupid and really great are about quarter of a million dollars apart. And that's true. You know, if you can't say, hey, this is stupid, but and not even if you need to get to a point where you don't even have to say this is stupid, but you just say it. And then if you're in the right room, if you're in the room with the right person, they get it and they know how to turn it. And to me, now, if I'm afraid to say something, I'm in the I shouldn't be in that room. What about people when they come in with you. Let's get the first time writing with you, and you can see that there may be a little intimidated. I always just say, you know, don't be afraid to say anything to me. And because if they're if they're nervous, then I get nervous, like, oh, they expect me to be something that I'm not. And and anybody like I'm talking about all these talented people like we were talking about Shane it is eight, but also he shows up. I mean, that's really what it is is people who show up again and again. Harlan Howard, who's to me one of the best songwriters of all time. I saw an interview with him where he said I didn't write better songs, I just wrote more of them. And I think there's something to that, even I mean I'm not real fast, but just being in that that constant motion of output and input. You gotta input. I mean, you were sitting here talking about your book, and I'm like, I need to read his book because I get so many ideas from books. I constantly make myself read. And if I'm not um, if I feel like I have nothing during that time that I would spend writing, I'll make myself read. So you draw a lot of inspiration because I felt you're driving to the bank, like that's still resonating with me. You're thinking what song would she write? You do that with things you read and people in places, and you'll try to put yourself to where where they're thinking their perspective. Yeah, and I think. I mean my first publisher told me that, and at the time I didn't know how to take it, but it was such a compliment looking back, told me that, you know, most songwriters have either the gift of melody or the gift of lyric, and she said, your gift is empathy. She's like, you can empathize better than anyone I've ever known, Like you can when you write something, it's like you've lived it. And at the time, I thought, well, damn you want to I want to be a great melody writer, you know, a great lyric writer. And and she was right, and I think when I embraced that, the other things fell into placed. Yeah I wasn't like a genius, but yeah it was a good student. Were your hard working student? Mm, I wish I would have worked harder. So you're a pretty smart and pretty hard working, really hard working but I didn't. I didn't apply myself in I was an athlete in high school and I don't even really worked harder than me in that way. And and I worked I think, um, academics came easier, so I didn't work as hard as that at that But um, I've worked every bit as hard and harder at music than than I worked at either of those things. I mean, you're good a lot of things. You went on a basketball scholarship. You they paid for you to go to school and play ball. They did. Yeah, yeah, but you know, I'll tell you what. That was a situation where where the hard work ran out. Because I had always been great in high school because I worked hard, and so I could be better than some people who were more talented than me. I get into college and not only do all the other girls work as hard as me, but they're all taller and quicker than me. So the hard work eventually in that way, we're out now. Had my passion stayed there, I probably would have gone on to be a coach or something. Um, but my I was by the time I got to college, the music bug had bit me hard. And literally this is this is not this is not an exaggeration. The day I quit playing basketball where I had a scholarship, and I moved home and started going to the community college that freshman year, yeah, I didn't play long. Um, And I really when I looked back at why I quit, I was very homesick, you know, Like I said, my parents never missed a game, so looking up in the stands and then not being there was really hard for me. And and I wasn't ready to leave the nest. You know, I was such a mama and daddy's girl. I just didn't know. I didn't even understand what it meant to leave. So I moved home, and I start going to community college and it's like a thirty five mile drive every day and living at home and working in the coach at that at that school wanted me to play there, and so I started going to open gyms. It was in the off season, and I realized, like, you know, I was just wanting to go home and my mom played music, and my mom and I just sit there and play music. And so I remember going in and telling him I wasn't gonna play and that, you know, I just my heart wasn't in it. And he said, are you sure? And I said, oh, yeah, I know, I'm sure, And you know, I don't want to take a spot from someone who does want it. And I left and I went and bought a guitar literally on the way home, and just never looked back. I just transferred all that passion I used to have for that into music, because you just quit thinking about that's every minute when you know, and I had honestly quit thinking about it before then when I really looked back on it. I guess you know, at that time, I think they had the w n B A, which I would have never been good enough for it. But there wasn't anything really for for women's basketball beyond college and my goal. I also learned a real good lesson about goal setting. My goal had always just been to get a college scholarship. So once I got that, it was like, Okay, goal achieved. I didn't have goals. I didn't have aspirations beyond that. And so when I got into it and it was homesick, and you know all those things, I just didn't want it anymore, and and and I and I was playing a lot of music at that point, and so by the time I gave it up, I wasn't thinking about it much at all. Before I asked about your move to Nashville, I don't know how I get a high school player. Where to get a scholar you gotta be really good. So where are we averaging the game? I don't you know. I think I averaged about fifteen points a game. I was. I was a shooting guard, and I was a really good three point shooter before a lot of girls were. I graduated high school nine. So before a lot of girls were really good three point shooters because it was kind of it wasn't like super new, but it just wasn't something that was focused on. And my senior year, I I said, I remember I set a state record. I had ten three pointers in a game one time. And then at this remember that game, I do like, did you do you remember feeling in the zone like, yeah, it was as round as a cloth basket, couldn't miss, you know. And then um, in the state tournament, I set a couple of state tournament records for like three pointers in a game and in a in a tournament in a career. And so that got me a lot of attention because, like I said, at that point, that was there weren't a lot of girls that were really that wasn't the Now it's like girls shoot three pointers like guys did. But then I mean, I'm making it sound like it was in the dark ages, but it just wasn't as as common. Any records still hold, you know. I think my mom, I think my mom told me that like the last one got broken the last year or something. You know, that's so funny to think about, Like you are an All Star basketball player. Do you still ever grab basketball and it just kind of feels good? It just feels like, man, you know, it does feel good, and I don't do it enough, and I should. But whenever I like, like if I'm at the wire or something and and there's just balls out some every It's been a couple of years since I've done this, but I'll just start shooting and it comes back to you real quick and you can hustle people quick around here. Yeah. I mean, my mom used to say to me, you need to get in that Ben Scale basketball game. That would be that's your way into the music business. You would always tell me that. And because you'd be a ringer, like you'd be a ringer basketball play, you're legit music. Yeah, man, I remember this, dude. Next time we said, yeah, I would bring Brandy. Yeah about her ready set up from the elbow boo boo. That's crazy to think about. And I get you know, I don't and I'm not so I'm not so into the sport anymore. But like March madness, I don't miss it. Do you have a team? Well, ut of course and then whatever, like this year was Gonezegga because they're from Washington, State and uh, so I always root for UT, you know, football, basketball, whatever. I just when I moved here, I remember my dad telling me the football was like a religion in the South, and uh and why had all we'd always watched football and loved football. I didn't think, how could it be anymore? And then I get back here and I had some really good friends. Um they're still there, but they lived in North Carolina and I didn't know anybody. So I'd drive over and see them a lot of weekends and I'd always see the the white and orange pom poms hanging out of car windows, and I thought, I think I want to be a part of that. I had decided as gonna be Vandy or UT and so I chose YOUT and and I'm I'm real big about like not being a fickle fan. To me, that's a that's a character flaw. Like you get a team and you stick with them, and so I have stuck with you t through the thick and the thin, and there was something real thick. But because I'm a huge Arkansas fan, die hard. I mean, we went one game, we went nine or ten, but Tennessee was really good, and like, I mean, they want a national championship after Peyton Manning like, I'm a sports earner by I did a national sports show forever. So when you played ball in high school and then in college, I was like, holy cow, what can she not do? It's so irritating for us that like struggled everything and here you are just dominating well sports and music. You know what I had my talent, you know, I said, Shane's talent is bringing out the best and others. My talent is I just won't give up, you know. I just nobody will ever outwork me at anything. Um, I just because I wasn't a great athlete, and but I just made my I put I got myself into better shape than anybody because I just was not quick. I think you're either quicker or not, and I wasn't quick, and so I just was in such good shape that I could wear people down. Quickness is like, and you know, I take quickness over height. I really would. But I love you know I do. I love college football. I follow that more than basketball. And it's I mean, this is such a great part of the country to live in. For it, you buy a guitar on the way home, you say, I'm down with basketball. You buy a guitar from a pun shot? My first every one where'd you buy guitar from? I bought it from a music store, So you stopped and bought a real guitar. Yeah, and I had guitars, but it was the first electric guitar I had. And I'm not some kind of a shredder sort of player, but I was really interested in that at the time. So I bought the guitar and the AMP I remember A was a PV and M and just started playing and and then I formed a band with my mom and one of my best longest friends, and we started entering um like talent competitions. We had really great three part harmony and got a band and played a lot of fairs and festivals and you know, like everything I couldn't get in it just a little bit, you know, I had to get it a lot. And it wasn't long before I moved to Nashville after that. Okay, I was going to ask about that. But for me, I'm a all a nothing person, which is why I don't drink, because I know what I would do. I would Everything I do consumes me. Are you O C D? Kind of Yeah? I mean, I I it's it's hard for me to do anything a little bit. And I've never had any addiction problems. I'm real lucky that way, um. And you know I my dad was that way too, you know my um. I remember my grandmed said, it's a good thing your dad's on into drugs or alcohol, because as much as he he gets into everything else, he was like a fitness fanatic and um, just anything he did it was like all the way and I definitely got that from him. It was it would have it would have never been good enough for me internally to be to stay where I was and work a job I didn't like and being a band on the weekends. I had to chase it and no other parts of your life like again for me, I know if I drank, I've never had a drink because I just know I saw my mom do it too. But I would love to drink. It looks so fun. I would love to smoke weed. It looks so fun. But I just know that's all I would do. That's it, because all I do now is work, and it's all I want to do. My mind's focus. I'm writing this, I'm writing doing the show, I'm doing saying I'm on the road, but you're you can you can drink a little bit and be okay. I'll tell you what I can't do. I mean yeah, and I'm a workholic. I can get in trouble with gambling. I had. I had a gambling problem. I stopped playing poker. I mean I and I mean I, you know what, I kind of troubles like, just let me know more about this. I could just said, Tunic, that's like redneck Vegas. Many times. The problem me with gambling, I realized, is to me, the only thing slightly less fun than winning is losing. It's the thrill of not losing more than winning. That that's exactly an addicts feeling. It's and for me, I can't really win enough to excite me, but I can lose enough to hurt me. Man, that is very that you just hit the nail on the head. And that's why I stopped, because there was no happiness. There was only avoiding sadness and getting sad. That was it. And once I hit that point, because Bennie, I would go and I will play these tournaments and I would fly to BA just play poker, and I want a tournament for like, you know, thousand dollars. One time I won the whole thing. It was like a tournament. How many people were in it? Thirty or so. Wow. So you were a good poker player. Anybody but says they're a good poker players not it's a good golfer. I played a lot, and I had all every book on my shelf was a book about Doyle Brunson or a book about And I was good at math and odds, and so I just studied the game all the time. That's all I did. I would go to work and I would just study and read and learn. And and then I realized I want all this money and I come from nothing, and the money did not excite me. And I was like, I have a problem. Yeah it's not about the money. I mean. I but speaking of that and like have and being a little O C D. Like I've never had a credit card because because I know I would get in trouble. You've never had People are always shocked about that. I've never had a credit card. Um now, there are business credit cards like for my touring and stuff, but I don't have them because crazy, because I know I would get in trouble with a credit card. I've always known it. And have you ever used a credit card? Everyone one time? That's amazing. I love it. Never used it? You're nuts like me. I can just you know they're a little nuts. Yeah, I've never had a credit card. Um. And I get obsessed with things like you said, like you you would go home and read the poker books. I was watching that TV show this is what I do, and it's just I'm like, how sick am I? So I was watching that TV show Feud on FX at Joan Crawford and Betty Davis. I would stay up all night finding out anything I could about Joan Crawford and Betty Davis. Like I just would go down these rabbit holes. Oh, Betty Davis smoked five packs of cigarettes today up until she died at seven. Like just all these random facts, and I just I get obsessed with things like that. I feel like I'm looking in the mirror. I will watch a sitcom and I want Wikipedia or Google every character in the sitcom, even the people that are like the be characters. Like I want to know where Jeffrey the butler from Fresh Prince has been since Like every I must know yeah, did you ever watch Breaking Bad? Okay, well, this is how sick I am. I found out that there was a color chart for every character, and if you go back and watch it, you can see and they picked colors that the people were gonna wear, and they would change the colors as they as they don't move into darkness, like Skylar always wore blue until she got into Walt's world, and then the blue got darker until she started wearing black. The only character whose color never changed was Hank's wife. She was the one consistent. They always kept her in purple. Wit, How did you? How did you know? I realized this. I was just like going down the rabbit hole Breaking Bad and trying to find out facts about it, and I stumbled upon it and and it was something they decided. When I think it's Vince Gilligan create created that show. He decided that, and and I've it just blew my mind and I'll just go down. I could tell you almost everything about Jaws. Um you know, like you ever read it? No, Oh, it's a it's the it's the it's like podcasts, but for internet geeks. Whatever you want to know, there's a there's a thread there's a message board, there's a group for it. No matter what the topic is, you can go and nerd out on whatever it is that you want. Like I'll go and watch like a show on Netflix, like Whenever, Uh Stephen Avery, did you ever watch that? A couple of years ago, when that came out, I was on Reddit every day reading theories. People were like going through all the case files because the Freedom of Information Act they were going request and they were doing full reports themselves, and so read it. Don't even look at it because you'll never get off of it. It'll be a terrible place for you to go. I do. I was, this is real sick. But I was on a jury several years ago, and the person that was on trial was convicted of the crime and isn't up for parole. Tie, and I'll go. I'll go find the number, the prisoner number, and check up on her. Everyone to like, I wonder if she's I wonder if she's getting out on good But hey, here, you know those kinds of things were she at? Were you like a trivia nerd? No, I really wasn't. But anything I've ever been really interested in, I just I Country music was that way for me, you know. When I mean I grew up, that was what we listened to. But when I started to really pay attention to who wrote songs and who produced them, and I would just find out everything I could. When you decided to move to Nashville from Washington, was it to be a songwriter? Was it to be an artist? Like what in your mind was going to happen in your life? Um, it was to be both, you know, But I definitely at that point was more. I mean, I would say as seventy artist songwriter in my mind. And then I moved here, and but I think I was always more songwriter than I realized, you know. I was really driven by that. And and I moved here and I started to make friends and do open mic nights and that, and and the friends I had that were getting record deals are getting at the time, like artist development deals. They were really really into the things that were tough for me, Like we're talking about hair and makeup earlier, Like they would instead of going to writing point and they'd go tan. And I just started to see as the time went on, well that's just not me. I don't And and about the time that I had completely given up on it. I had the opportunity to make my first record, Twelve Stories, and I just was all always driven to the thing that always has driven me was to get better as a songwriter. That that was and I think part of it was because it felt like it was something I could control, like I can go in every day and and try to get it to be a better craftsman. I love Twelve Stories. I love both the records, and I think you're not in for two Grammies this past year and so album of the Year yes, and uh female performance and performance because they put them well, they put them all together in the Grammys. So is that frustrating to you to be up for, like you guys thought, bigger than the Grammys, but to not yet achieve the commercial success. Oh yeah, I would be lying if I said that. I wasn't, And I think anyone who says differently is lying to someone, probably mostly themselves. I mean, we all want to be super successful. It's I mean, now, I don't want to compromise my art for it. I always want to make make music that I feel proud of and that that I'm gonna want to And I don't know how you really know this, but that I'm gonna want to still perform in ten years, you know. Um, And so I've never compromised in that way, and I've never been asked to compromise in that way either, I must say. And so yeah, it's disappointing. And and sometimes, you know, if I'm just speaking just real honest terms, it's it hurts my feelings, you know, because you you want to be loved and you want to feel like, oh man, radio radio feels like I'm worth spending their their real estate on. And but you know, but also things like being Grammy nominated, they make you feel like, Okay, I'm doing something right here. How do I just get a few? How do I get more ears on this? That's always my um my motivation And and I think too for me, like with the radio, every artist that I loved and wanted to be like as a kid was on the radio. So to me, that was the pinnacle. And um, but people get their music all different ways now, you know. That's something that I've learned. And and an artist like myself, when I first came to town, the way that my record broke, my first record, it was on a small independent label. It was all publicity buzz and social media that would have never happened when I first moved here. It changes so fast. You know better than me. I mean you're you're in the middle of it more than I am. But but just the way that people get music changes. Yeah, it's changed so much that it's almost distracting. And it's almost to where you even records. And my thing is, I don't think you don't have full records in the next three to five years. Everybody keeps saying that because we're in such an a d D society of what you got next? What you got next is a new record, new new song, new record, new song, new that if you're not even songs are getting shorter because dada shows that people are gonna punch out faster, and if you're gonna put a five and a half minute song out, people just aren't gonna sit through it anymore. Our brains now are in this. Let me shut with phone, I'm a check my computer, let me check, let me check, let me check, let me check. And it's not right or wrong, it's just how we fund On Facebook, Twitter, songs are going what else is out their own new music you just popped up over here On I let new music, you know, so we have to always adjudge. Everyone's always had to adjust forever in the history. Be a format, be a technology, Everyone's always had to adjust. And that's what I'm finding now, is that even me and our references a few times John Marypott a record, but he put it out in three chunks and he put it and what I liked about it, what I really loved about it, because I'm a massive John Mayra fan, is that I was able to take four songs at a time and spend a month with these four songs and really appreciate them, rather than get twelve or thirteen and go here it is. You can't really take your time with twelve or thirteen because before you know, it's the next week or something else out or something. With four songs, I got to love them, I got to hear other things to come back to the four songs, and by the time it was over, it was like I know every song on the entire record now because of how it was put out. But then again, the hard copy didn't matter as much. In our format. It's still six hard I always I had this idea for my first record. I loved the way that Stephen King put out The Green Mile. He put it out three chapters at a time, and I remember how excited I was to go to a bookstore and get that. I think it was a month. And I remember when I did my first record, I was talking to my manager at the time, what if we put out a song, what if we put it out like The Green Mile, like in chapters since it's called twelve stories. Well, nobody knew me, so it wasn't a great plan. But somebody like John Mayer can do that. When he did that, it made me think of that, like, oh, it's like the Green Mile. There's and you know our a pre sale is a little bit like that, where you get a few songs. The problem with the pre you're gonna get me started to because I think rady. I think I think I can just fix all the radio and all records. Just give it to me and I'll fix it all. We can fix that. I am a disaster as a human and sometimes professionally that I can fix everything else. So I don't even know where I was going with that. Thank you. Here's the problem with the pre sell you not you, but people. You need to make the pre sell where you can't get the three songs unless you buy the whole record as a pre sale. Otherwise I'm just gonna buy one, two singles, three singles. See this is how how how dance I am? I didn't think you could. Oh yeah, oh I thought you hadn't You can go buy the three singles separately, two of the three. I didn't know that. Okay, So the pre sell goes up. It's the same thing. You's putting three songs up and going don't want to buy the rest of the record later, so pre sell. Okay, you can buy these three, you can buy the whole record and you get all three of these songs, and that's it. That's how to do it. But everybody's short terming it. Everybody sure we're looking at get the one or two songs old like if people were really investing in the album, which are not going to anymore. That's gonna die except for the real people that want an album to represent a piece of art. You're always going to have that kind of artist, but you're gonna see far less of them now just because of the money involved and making music. But let's say you put out three songs and it's the pre sell. I can buy two of them and never touched the record, or I could just buy just pre sung by the whole record and have all three of them. But I could have bought them separately. Anyway, it's a it's a weird system. It's it doesn't it's not correct. I should fix it. Yeah, I didn't know that. See, I had no idea. I thought they had to buy all of it to get it. And then streaming as a whole the wild West. Still yeah, and that's trying to figure that out. And I think about, you know, as a songwriter, I was so against streaming because you know, we just don't get paid. And when I was out on a radio tour, Um, we were coming home late one night. I've never even looked at Spotify at this point. Um, and the radio rep he's trying to stay awake and he's like, hey, would you play DJ? I said, okay. He hands me phone in Spotify and for something, and I thought, oh my god, this is like a candy store, you know, like for the consumer. Yeah, you can just you can get anything. If and I thought, if I didn't know what I know about how songwriters are and aren't being paid on it, this would be the way I would get my music. It's the new Napster, and that's what we're dealing with now, because back when we were younger, Napster existed and we got whatever we wanted free. You just picked a letter and downloaded every song that started with the L and look up with a thousand new songs and didn't pay anything for it. And we thought that it was just cool, and we were mad at Metallica for fighting it. Well, you know, I remember Jesse Joe Dillon, who's a who's a great friend and great collaborator of mine. Her dad, Dean Delon, legendary songwriters. She said, when she was in junior middle school she found Napster. It was all excited and said, Dad, look at I've got all these songs. And years she said, he just lost his mind and it makes sense now, but us, we were just like, oh, I remember, it was such a cool thing, and I was so upset. I was like, these artists want to take away our rightful free music, not knowing what we know now. Now, fast forward now and you have the streaming services and there aren't laws, just like there weren't for Napster then that was legal until it wasn't and then once it became illegal and land wire and they were all these and that slowly went away because it was illegal. Now you're having streaming and they're trying to figure out the wild West. And you know, I have a friend um that goes and testifies and is you know very much for he's a songwriter in town, Lee Thomas Miller. So it's one of my closest friends. And so he goes and he goes and testifies in front of the Congress and it's like, but it's gonna take another couple of years of the wild West being figured out, and then it's going to get figured out, and there's something else is gonna Then it's gonna be all of a sudden be Globotron. Then are you snap us? You know, it'll be something else. It's never going to end. The cycle is never going to end of figuring out what's new. But the money will come and streaming, just like Napster stopped, and some thing new will then pop up and we'll be getting will. I think the thing that always will be around no matter what is the live performance, because there's something about that that people are willing to pay money for and I think about in you know, there were court gestures like there's people like to be entertained in a live way. That's the one thing through all of it that I think will remain constant. But I could be wrong. No, I don't think you're wrong at all. It's almost to me it's like sports on television. Like you can put Netflix out there, you can go a a Hulu, you can go Amazon Prime. But if you want to watch sports, it needs to be live. And it's the only thing, and it's the reason television really is the cable is able to maintain sports is live events and a lot of that sports. Otherwise we'll just DVR or put everything. You would say that because I won't watch a recorded game. I want either. Yeah, I want either. Even I'm a die hard Razorback fan, I cannot watch a recorded game. I'll just look at the score if if I and I don't miss a game, at least watching it. And if I do, but what stinks if I do. If my band's playing, I'll have a monitor or TV with a screen on. And there have been times where Arkansas playing football and the game should be over, and it's in over. It's in overtime whatever, and I'll have whoever's opening. If I'm gonna stand up, um, I'll have my stage manager or my store manager going and say, hey, Bob, we need you to play an extra fifteen minutes like the Arkansas Tennessee game. Like, Bob, we need to playing extra. We were in St. Louis and then Nikita Karmen and she was like okay, So she was played for people and I watched the end of the game. But live television is what is sports is gonna keep live television a thing, just like the live performance is going to be the one stable thing in music. But it's never stay. It's never been stable except for the live performance, and and it's you know, it's just been real. I mean, I feel like things have changed so much in the last couple of years with the streaming, and it's always something and we don't take serious. And that's why it girls because we don't take it serious. If we took it serious, it wouldn't be out of control. We had hammered it down from the very beginning, and no and knew what we were getting into. Um Man, before you know what, You're an hour and to a conversation. Uh, Brandy is out right now with Charlie Washing. How long are you guys out until you know, mid June, I think, or maybe late June, and we're playing a lot. We're we're in the southeast this weekend. I don't know when this airs, but we're playing in Athens, Georgia tomorrow and um, Greensboro, North Carolina, somewhere in Virginia I can't remember. But then then we're here in Nashville. You guys should come to the show. We're playing the Winery. The Winery a week night. Well, don't you know what, Um on the road, it's a Friday night and a Sunday night because the first show sold out, so they added a Sunday night. Um, yeah, so you know, but I know what it's like to to get out. But anyways, the offers there, um and uh. And then we go out to the West coast for a couple of weeks. I hope everybody downloads or maybe even streams Big Day of Small Town depending on when you hear that. You know, podcast live forever. And I really, first of all, I'm a fan of your music. Before I ever met it was a year and a halfore I ever met you. From when I was just like, man, Brandy is awesome. I really enjoy being around you and has such a different experience and listening to music. I just thought you would come in and be it would be like the Graham Reaper, like Brandy was like, I'm here to make you sad. I know we started out real low um, but I enjoyed beating around you as well. You know you're a good You're a good energy. Well, thank you. And another thing is my girlfriend Lindsay l was on tour with you and Jennifer Nettles and just would say the greatest thing. She would saying brand It's like the greatest human ever. Oh that's I mean, she's she's just wonderful. She's a new single coming out of which is Yeah and Like, which is amazing. A couple three weeks or so, you know, And I said that that nobody all outworked me, but Lindsey would would. Lindsay works as hard as me. She worked hard. She's a hard worker. She's a grinder. Yeah. She deserves everything she gets in a good way, including you. I can tell you're a good dude. Brandy Clark, thank you for coming by the house. I really appreciate it. I always know it's gotta be weird because I like doing the show from my house because once people get in, it feels more like we're just hanging out, right. But I know it's weird to knock on the front door somebody's house and be like, I'm here for thing. Like, I know that's got to be. It was a weird driving the no but because I've done these kinds of things before, I mean, you know, I did, uh there. Melissa Ethridge has a show on XM called Melissa's Basement. That was a little weird, you know, because I remember I flew in and and it was in l a And and drove to her house. And you know, I've never met Melissa Ethridge and she was she was her first the first record she had that really was huge. I remember my best friend in high school loved it, and so I was thinking about all that going They're like, oh my god, like we want to Melissa Ethridge's house. So that was kind of weird. And there there was security and stuff. There was no security involved in your house, so and I've met you before, so it wasn't as weird. I think the house feels good it's way cooler than in the studio. Yeah, it feels like I've actually settled in and you don't realized you've been doing this for hour and whatever minutes. I met Melissa Etheridge about a month ago for the first time, and I wanted to take a picture whether and I couldn't get it. I didn't have the nerve to do it. I could, I was. She probably would have loved that. I just didn't want to. And the reason why Lindsay was playing a show with her, and I didn't want to be I want to wanna bearras Lindsay. And two I didn't want to be that guy. But I'm such a fan still in music and of her and of a couple of our records, you know. And I used to play her on the radio coming to my window, like played that ten thousand times, or I'm the only one, Oh great song. You know. It's crazy about you saying you didn't want to ask somebody for a picture. I'm real weird about that, Like I never want to ask anybody for a picture. But I was um playing the Bentonville, Arkansas Film Festival and Gina Davis is one of the the founders of that which Bettonville is such a great little town. And uh, I said to my tour manager, and he you know, there's a lot of times where I'll be out with somebody and they'll say this, Brandy want a picture with like Dwight yoakums verny wan a picture with Dwight. Now it's it's fine um and uh. In fact, this weekend I was out with why Nona I Digress and I wanted to see her puppy. I heard she had this puppy and and I walked over to her and I was like, hey, I'm Brandy. I played earlier and I was in pajamas at this point. She's like, you wanta picture or something? And I said no, actually I want to meet your doll. And she's like, wow, what a concept that you just want to hang out and I get a picture. So I kind of pride myself and never bothered anybody for a picture. But when we were at the Bentonville Film Festival, I said in my tour manager, I said, bart, if there's an opportunity for me to get picture with Gina Davis, take it. And you know what, this weekend, our cut your vestball happened and I was hosting it and Scott Foley who's in Who's in Scandal? I don't know if you watched Scandal it all, but he plays one of the Yeah, I know who that is. Okay, so he's like Jake and Scandal and he was standing there and it was me a little bit down in him. But he was in the middle of like Jimmy and Karen, Everybody's just talking and I'm like, and I know all the little big people, well, I don't know, but I was like, I just wished at Leaves I get a picture of Scott fol and I was too embarrassed to hop in and get and so riot As I was about to just take the nerve and be like, hey Scott, he was like, all right, it was super I'm gonna I'm gonna go see you guys later, and he walked away. And it's like I just didn't have the courage to do it. I felt so stupid. There are those people. I'll tell you. When I was at with Jennifer Nettles, one of Jennifer's biggest fans is Connie Chung, really yes, and we were playing somewhere on the East Coast and Connie Cheung was at the show, and I remember hearing that like earlier in the day, like, oh, Connie Chung is here, and I'm back in my bunk and somebody's like, hey, Connie Chung's on the bus and she wants to meet you. And I was like, no, you know that's not true. It's true. I walked the other she had a Brandy Clark T shirt on and and she got a few cocktails. You know, it's kind of funny to see this, this like anchor woman who's you know, broken all the big stories in my life, kind of tipsy with a with a Brandy Clark T shirt on. That's funny. We got a picture that night that was crazy. If I don't know if you know what's that she right to like Maripo Victor, she still is and he was not there because he was golfing. I remember that they're still together. Huh. That's crazy, man. We're going again. We're going on those rabbit holes so that you're talking about, we get we're rabbit holing it. Um, Brandy, thank you for coming by. Thank you, I really appreciate it. Mike White, episode is this alright? Episode fifty eight of the Bobby Cast. Thank you very much. Please, if Brandy's coming by wherever, if it's this tour with Charlie, or if you're he in this six months from now and she's coming by ghost see her. She really is fantastic life and it's fun to be around, and she loves taking pictures. Those pictures all time. Can't get enough pictures. We'll see you next time. Thank you, and thanks to one hundred flowers. All go bye,