Geoff Shackelford on the Byron Nelson and the PGA Tour Schedule

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

00:00:05
Speaker 2: And when I find my.

00:00:05
Speaker 3: Ball in a bride egg Friday Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, Frida Egg, Frida Egg.

00:00:11
Speaker 1: Bride Egg, Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the.

00:00:39
Speaker 4: Ladies and gentlemen.

00:00:40
Speaker 5: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today, I'm joined by Jeff Shackelford, contributing writer for Golf Week and also a Golf Channel analyst. I guess you would say, Jeff, how's it going good?

00:00:56
Speaker 2: How are you?

00:00:57
Speaker 5: I hope that interview or that introduction served you well.

00:01:02
Speaker 2: You know that that did the job.

00:01:04
Speaker 5: Big week on the PGA Tour with the Byron Nelson heading to Trinity Forest, I think you and I are in the same boat with our affinity for minimalist golf design. Wanted to see what your thoughts were on the golf course, tournament and all things else at and t Byron.

00:01:26
Speaker 3: Well, the golf course was sensational, and you know, you and I sat next to each other in the press center there and argued and they probably the guy in front of us only turned around like four times and gave us a look. I don't know if that was our swearing or if that was our bickering, but it was a huge week for the School of Golf.

00:01:46
Speaker 2: Course Design that that that.

00:01:48
Speaker 3: I've subscribed to and you do and and have practiced a little bit too, And so I was very nervous knowing what I had seen going into the the tournament and not seeing anything that made me feel like, oh boy, they're going to love this course. I just didn't see the visuals well once you got on the ground. It's just not a course that is going to photograph that well to most people. And gosh, when I'm still thinking about some of the holes and the greens, and it just is the I think a case can be made. It's the best thing that designed that Ben and Bill and the boys have done with a sight that that didn't give them a lot, and it's there, i'd say their boldest in terms of the greens and strategy, and I just everything about.

00:02:47
Speaker 2: It really blew me away.

00:02:49
Speaker 3: I mean, there's only one hole I'm kind of iffy on that. I'd like to hit some shots too, but just watching play, I didn't think maybe quite worked. But other than that, I thought it had something special, different, interesting, It had different ways to play. It looked like based on different whole locations and different wins. So uh that said, you know, I know how you feel the golf course should have been firmer and faster, and it probably should have been. But I just I've seen enough of the Chambers Bays of the world to know that this could have really backfired. And we can get into I think how Aaron Wise validated the design despite the softness, But to me, they had to do with what they did, and it was it was. It was very successful from the tournament and golf point of view. I don't know about the spectator side, but certainly from the architecture and PGA tour side, I thought it was a home run.

00:03:46
Speaker 4: Yeah I was.

00:03:47
Speaker 5: I was going to ask you, am I crazy or is it crazy that the world's best players came to a golf course and played it slower than regular members see it day and day out.

00:04:02
Speaker 3: It's a little crazy, but but I think we just have too many examples in recent years of set up being a little too shocking for a golf tournament or pay you know, remember their pace of play issues with with tour golf, and I just think that they had to air on the side of that of greener, a little greener, softer to prevent the players saying, well, that was a freak show.

00:04:32
Speaker 2: We're never going back.

00:04:34
Speaker 3: And so that was why I thought it was the right move. And I think they were a little nervous about some of the wind that was in the forecast. Some of it materialized one day and another day it didn't. And and then the rain, of course, I mean, how many times do we hear that no rain this week and that happened on Sunday. But yeah, it's very unusual. And and I think next year the course will be allowed to be moan a little bit tighter than it was this year, would be my guess, now that the setup staff knows how things function and speed, pace of play, how it functions, and where there are backups and what holes played. Maybe a little too easy because they were the ball hooks are running out, But.

00:05:24
Speaker 2: Other than that, I think it was the right move.

00:05:26
Speaker 3: They were very nervous about this venue on a lot of fronts. You just can't underestimate how much AT and T is an important part of the PGA Tour and not wanting to have them have some sort of an embarrassment I think was really at the forefront of their minds.

00:05:43
Speaker 2: And I understand that.

00:05:46
Speaker 5: A lot of golf fans are kind of obsessed with this concept of score to part. So the people in that school have thought kind of look at the tournament and say, they lit it up. What would be your response to them defending, you know, kind of in defensive Trinity Forrest as a test of the world's best.

00:06:10
Speaker 3: Well one no player left there, I guarantee you Sunday night and said, well, that was a.

00:06:17
Speaker 2: Waste of a week. That was too easy. I was I I just didn't I don't feel tested. I'm not coming back.

00:06:25
Speaker 3: If you could see the golf course in person, you know that, yes, they scored well.

00:06:31
Speaker 2: But they earned it.

00:06:33
Speaker 3: It required a lot of thought, a lot of precision and creativity at times. I mean, how fun was it yesterday to watch Aaron Wise just putting on this unbelievable ball striking and putting display. But then there was there was Brandon Grace, and there were Mark Leishman playing a little bit more like veterans, and I mean Leishman out of four iron around of green he used and and also using some ingenuity and there was a little more shot shaping, and so there were multiple ways to play the course, and multiple people played it very well, but the numbers are staggering. From whys the shot Link people sent out something this morning, I finally got to I was kind of hoping to get it last night.

00:07:18
Speaker 2: And it just is astounding that he His ninety one point.

00:07:23
Speaker 3: Sixty seven percent on greens and regulation is the highest four round stroke play number by a winner since nineteen ninety seven, So that, I mean, that's just an astounding number.

00:07:39
Speaker 2: I know the greens are big, and I know.

00:07:41
Speaker 3: He's hitting iron off a bunch of teas because he hits it so bloody far, but it's just still, you know, it was so impressive watching him down the stretch.

00:07:51
Speaker 2: He just kept waiting.

00:07:52
Speaker 3: For him to crack a little, and every time he kind of that. Last night, he had a couple of shots he didn't like can he missed him in the right spot, And so you have to just admire that so much that not only was he so consistent, but then when he did miss, he missed on the right spot and the run avoided the short sighting himself or whatever you want to call it. Putting himself in the wrong place, and for a twenty one year old that is just, uh, that's just so impressive. So I would say that ultimately the players will walk away having been having been sort of entertained by the course. I don't know if it if it fit because of the setup. What Jeff Ogilvey said to us there in the press conference earlier in the week that that that players will want to come there because it'll make him a better golfer. I think that, uh, when it gets ratcheted up, you know a little bit, and the setup that that forecast of as well, we'll come true. But certainly nobody left there feeling cheated. I actually I've never heard of Have you ever heard of a player leaving a tournament saying, well, they're not coming back because it was too easy. I've never I've never heard that myself. I mean, maybe I've heard of players say I don't go to that tournament because I can't shoot twenty.

00:09:18
Speaker 5: Five hunder never heard Coucher might not be back.

00:09:22
Speaker 3: Well, he may not be back, but that's okay. He'll he's got he plays.

00:09:28
Speaker 2: Every other week anyway. So but other than that, yeah, nobody, nobody spoke. I don't know if there was some other report.

00:09:36
Speaker 3: Was there somebody else besides Coucher, because Jordan Speeth in his final round press conference noted twice kind of took a little jab at the media sort of about reporting and make sure you report that a certain way. It was kind of an odd ultimatum. And I'm guessing he read somebody being critical or somebody's comments taken a certain way, and and they they had said something the opposite to him in person.

00:10:01
Speaker 2: It might have been Coocher.

00:10:02
Speaker 3: I don't know, and I'll be honest with you, I'm a little shocked that Coucher said what he said because he's somebody who goes to the Scottish Open and loves this.

00:10:11
Speaker 2: Kind of golf and uh maybe he just loved the four seasons there.

00:10:16
Speaker 3: I don't know, but it seemed it surprised me of all people that he spoke.

00:10:20
Speaker 4: So that it shocked me.

00:10:22
Speaker 5: I picked Coucher in my like one and done leagues because I'm like, you know, walking I said this to you, I would walking around the golf course. God, this place is perfect for Coocher. Yeah, you know, like I think one of the things with the with the rain that happened was that the rain and the softer conditions made it more of a bomber's paradise on on Sunday as you know you would expect with wide faraways and soft conditions. I think Adam Scott said it in his in his post round interview with Amanda Balllyonis. It's like she was like, well, and he was like, well, it's I mean, ninety yard fairways and soft conditions, nobody's going to really make a big number.

00:10:59
Speaker 4: I think on Saturday it was just so fascinating.

00:11:02
Speaker 5: Because you had Wyse and you had a leashman, but then you also had Kevin Nah and Brian Gay. You know, Brian Gay competing with Wise, who's one of the longest players on tour, Like, you don't get to see that very often.

00:11:16
Speaker 4: And I think with golf we fall into.

00:11:19
Speaker 5: This trap in the social media era of golf that everybody becomes obsessed with these four hundred yard drives. But like, if everybody hits at four hundred yards, it's not nearly as interesting as watching Aaron Wise hit a three hundred and sixty yards and Brian Gay hitting at two to eighty, competing at an equal level.

00:11:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, the variety was incredible, and I think that just speaks to the that has to be a statement about the architecture. There's just no other way to put it. I was I was amazed, of course, as I always am, how far they were hitting it, and you know, they were getting good run on the ball. Of course, certain CBS broadcasters had to note that note the role because of course it's not the players who hit the ball along way. Well, it's a links golf course, so fifty yards a roll should should not be a shock.

00:12:12
Speaker 5: It's not that the ball the ball isn't spinning, because it's everything's just perfectly optimized to generate fifty yards a role.

00:12:21
Speaker 3: But yeah, it was. It was really interesting to look at some of the names and look at the people who played well, and but that last day the scoring was kind of astonishing. I mean, to see some people shoot sixty nine and get passed by a lot of people just suggest that they saved some pretty simple whole locations. And then obviously the rain just did render the course pretty defenseless. But the ball was rolling out pretty nice. I mean I watched every minute it up to the end, and the ball was still running in the fairways nicely after the rain to length.

00:12:54
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think where the fire wasn't. I was even a little disappointed. On Saturday, you have this hot and windy day and having played the golf course spend a ton of time on it in November, I watching guys spin back webshots. Yeah, down wind, you know that's where to me the PGA Tour and got a little stop.

00:13:16
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:13:17
Speaker 3: I think though we discussed this and I don't want to go down an equipment rat hole. But my biggest takeaway from watching tour golf this year and walking out on a couple of greens is just how much the guys are able to control the ball to firm greens, those greens of sawgrass Andy where I was out. I actually got to hit some plutts. I went out with the guys doing set up on Saturday and a little bit on Sunday, and.

00:13:43
Speaker 2: I dropped a plotter, you know, just gently to kind of and the thump sound was like.

00:13:48
Speaker 3: Wow, these things have got nice firmness to them. And then you go and watch the telecast and you see.

00:13:53
Speaker 2: The way they spin the ball.

00:13:54
Speaker 3: And I saw the Riviera this year, I was just just floored by how much spin guys can put them on the ball out of what was very light, rough but two greens that were if the average golfer tried to play a shot to them, they they they'd probably be running the ball right through the green. And so I don't want to say that the grooves are needing to be looked at, but it is. It is really hard to set up a golf course now with as much spin as the players put on their approaches. And then you, I mean, the fairways at Sawgrass were incredible. These fairways were very good, although as you noted, they would have been amazing just cut just a bit tighter, and the amount of spin guys can put on the ball with a tight lie. I think it also speaks to how much that fairway, that longer fairway grass that Augusta probably impacts things because the guys don't seem to quite spin the ball as much.

00:14:52
Speaker 2: When they when they land the ball in the green there from the fairway. But so anyway, I I what what what? Yes?

00:15:00
Speaker 3: What goes for a firm green on the tour is actually rather soft for them, but for the rest of us it would we'd be pretty shocked at how firm some of them are these days.

00:15:14
Speaker 5: Since everybody agrees that the game's changed, whether whichever side of the distance debate you're on, everybody says, well, the game's changed, Why is it that our society still holds on to par as the same number.

00:15:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's been something that is always an issue in this discussion, and it's just it's hard to it's hard for people, I guess, to kind of go a little bit deeper. And thankfully we have more stats now that and I think just more people have come to realize it's not sacred. I think I wrote at least one chapter in my Future Golf book about this, which is now fifteen years ago. But this absurd sanctity of par nonsense. It's just there's just so much more to looking at a golf tournament and a golf hole in the way of course plays than how it plays to par as. We saw this week just with the with the change in weather and wind and and it's so boring too. Who cares if if parr is protected? Uh, it's more about did you since that that the best players were able to play shots and be rewarded for them and if they make birdies, they make birdies.

00:16:32
Speaker 2: And then of course, the other thing that makes.

00:16:33
Speaker 3: It all so ridiculous is that conditioning has never been better. I mean the golf course conditioning this year, at every tourament I have been to, has just been astounding how.

00:16:47
Speaker 2: Good it is.

00:16:48
Speaker 3: And uh, you give good players the kind of green smoothness and fair way lies and even bunker lies, uh that they're getting and you just you're not. You can't protect park, give it up. It's stupid. And that that just does not get factored in enough. How much conditioning allows players to score and and freeze them up to worry about other stuff or or to put another way, it doesn't distract them the way it used to when you used to get more spike marks and bumpy poa greens. And I mean they still say the poe is bumpy, and I guess it is compared to some of the grasses.

00:17:32
Speaker 2: But they don't know pump bumpy poa on the PGA tour anymore.

00:17:36
Speaker 3: I mean, it is a it is a beautiful, beautiful poa strain.

00:17:40
Speaker 2: That they get to face.

00:17:41
Speaker 3: So yeah, the par Is it's it's a it's a silly thing, and it's funny. All the people who like to mention that scoring hasn't changed, and defending the distance argument were very quiet around the players other than to say, wow, look a guy who doesn't hit it very far one. But otherwise they torched that place. And and I'm telling you the greens were not soft firm, they just but they had perfect fairways and perfect conditions to clip.

00:18:09
Speaker 2: A ball off and control the ball.

00:18:14
Speaker 4: Yeah, I.

00:18:16
Speaker 5: Can't think this is the steroid era of golf. And you know, if you compare it to the steroid era of baseball, you know not players are not taking steroids.

00:18:27
Speaker 4: Just to be very clear, I'm talking about the equipment.

00:18:31
Speaker 5: But if you compare it to the steroid era of baseball, all of a sudden, games got unbelievably long and record long standing records were just being shattered left and right. And if you look at golf right now, like the rounds are getting egregiously long, and you know, scoring records are falling left and right, and you're seeing more and more young players that you're losing.

00:18:56
Speaker 4: The variety in the game.

00:18:58
Speaker 5: And I think like that's the core of the problem is that if you look at baseball during the steroid era, it became so power oriented. Everybody was just trying to play. The strategy of the game changed, where people were just waiting for home runs. Take the steroids away, and all of a sudden, you're seeing the baseball that everybody loves with like hit and runs. You know, they're stealing bases, like pitchers are all of a sudden, like you know, you don't have to be just a power pitcher.

00:19:27
Speaker 4: Like the games are shorter now.

00:19:30
Speaker 5: Also, like the game got better by taking the steroids away, even though everybody believed in this. Chicks dig the long ball.

00:19:38
Speaker 4: And I feel like golf's in the exact same place right now.

00:19:42
Speaker 3: It most certainly is, and it's been obviously evolving this way.

00:19:47
Speaker 2: And that's why last week was a nice reminder.

00:19:50
Speaker 3: As you noted the variety on the leader board the golf course did. It didn't discriminate against the long hitter, but it also allowed some people who play a little bit different kind of game to contend.

00:20:01
Speaker 2: And was I thought that was a great thing.

00:20:05
Speaker 3: But I since that we're probably the minority on that. Certainly, the PGA tourist position now is to promote distance, and they're going to resist any effort to do anything about it, despite the fact that it's it's as you know, I mean, the pace of play is the thing is just astonishing. Riviera this year had no rough and beautiful weather and they could not break five point twenty as a threesome Trinity forests, no rough, perfect condition, mild weather and for the most part, and they also could not really break that barrier until Sunday.

00:20:47
Speaker 2: When they needed to finish.

00:20:50
Speaker 3: And although Kevin not really tried to really tried to send it in a Monday there, but.

00:20:55
Speaker 2: They Oh and by the way, they're all shooting six, they're making everything and taking.

00:21:02
Speaker 3: As few shots as possible yesterday and they just barely finished in that window they had, which was really tight, and so it's really fascinating. I mean, I talked to some players last week. We just kind of had an accidental forty five minutes together in a van while a thunderstorm passed, and they asked Mike. They didn't know that I'd like written a whole book about this and obsessed about the topic, so I prefaced some of my comments, but they asked about the bifurcation concept, and I started taking them through Riviera and the number of playing opportunities that will be lost there when they reduce the field because you can't finish the first two rounds, and it just doesn't work that time of year with a one hundred and forty four player field. And you know, when they finally hear the twenty four playing spots are going to go away at a great golf course like that, they start to get some understanding.

00:21:58
Speaker 2: And so I don't know where it's going to go.

00:22:02
Speaker 3: But the tour certainly thinks that people tune in to watch long hitting, and of course they don't. They love to watch players control the ball, spin the ball. I mean that was the only thing I felt depride of a little bit this week at Trinity Forest was and I think you did too.

00:22:19
Speaker 2: We want to see more balls land and feed.

00:22:21
Speaker 3: I mean Zach blair shot on Sunday on seventeen where he took the flag out and he chipped it way up the slope and then brought it back after he hit his t shot long was so cool. I thought we'd see a little bit more of that, and I think the softness and the slowing down of the course deprived of a few more of those moments, right, wouldn't you agree?

00:22:45
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd agree.

00:22:46
Speaker 5: I think Leishman hit that low chaser on Saturday into the eighteenth where you know, it was a backish pin and he hit you know, a flighted six iron in there that landed on the front edge and ran right back there. He was one of like, you know, six or seven players that got the ball within twelve feet because he hit the proper shot.

00:23:06
Speaker 4: And I think that's something.

00:23:07
Speaker 5: That sticks with me always with uh. I had a conversation about a year ago with Jeff Ogilvie and he said, you know, the biggest crime to golf fans is the fact that they don't get to see Rory McElroy hit all of the shots that he's capable of because the golf courses don't ask them of him, so he doesn't practice them.

00:23:29
Speaker 2: Nope.

00:23:30
Speaker 3: And you know we saw with Bubba this year at Riviera, people were ooing and aweing watching the ball move in the air, and you just go to you go to any golf tournament and you just don't hear ooing and aweing on a t shot. Maybe if somebody drives the green on a short part four, but otherwise you hear it.

00:23:48
Speaker 2: When you see spin.

00:23:50
Speaker 3: You see, you know, when fans recognize that somebody hits a recovery shot that's really good, or when they when they when they land a ball and feed it. It's just so much more fun to watch. And so that's something that we do get deprived of too much. And we got a little bit this week and we got it obviously like normal and Augusta and people respond to it there.

00:24:17
Speaker 2: So you know, it's one of those things.

00:24:18
Speaker 3: Where if I were commissioner for a day, I would commission a focus group to.

00:24:23
Speaker 2: Kind of look at all that stuff.

00:24:25
Speaker 3: And I think you'd find that if you ask people to watch shots and what they respond to most that that the people who are really living under par are loving the the stuff around the greens that goes on where these guys show they're on.

00:24:42
Speaker 2: Another level even maybe on another.

00:24:45
Speaker 3: Level from from really good amateur golfers even you know, we're just the stuff they can do with controlling the ball.

00:24:53
Speaker 5: You know, the idea of par three's or part three's are generally the most photographed than the most you know, popular hole for the regular golfer because it levels the playing field. Anybody on a par three can any golfer could hit a better shot than Tiger Woods in his prime on a par three if you know, if the probability's right, and I think something with that is like a regular golfer watching Dustin Johnson hit it three hundred and eighty yards, that's not relatable. No, that's not a shot they ever think about, ever see themselves hitting. But watching Dustin Johnson hit a shot from around the green all of a sudden, that becomes much more relatable and it's more like the game they play, and it's something they can actually tangibly take and try, you know, like the shot Zach Blair hit is something that if somebody's playing an interesting golf course could all of a sudden look at the backside of a contour and say, hey, I'm going to try and hit it away from the floor to get it close to the flag as a And that's so cool is that that is a relatable shot. And that's why it's I mean, I think about it all the time. Is if you go back, say fifteen years, and look at the ten greatest shots of the last decade from let's just say two thousand to nineteen eighty five, how many of them would be drives or missile straight iron shots close to flags like maybe.

00:26:31
Speaker 2: One I was trying to think of one.

00:26:34
Speaker 3: The only one I first came to mind was Andrew McGee driving and making it the the albatross at TPC.

00:26:41
Speaker 2: Scott said, but we don't have video of that, so yeah, I'll think of one. I'm sure there's one. Ricky Fowler. Well, no, that one.

00:26:47
Speaker 3: They always show the ones on seventeen at the players, but really the one he hit, the drives he hit on eighteen were the ones that were so impressive. But again, yeah, no, I can't think of any.

00:26:55
Speaker 2: Of the moment.

00:26:56
Speaker 5: But if you think about the recent time, like, one of the things that would stick in my mind is one of the most famous shots is Dustin Johnson hitting a dead straight laser t shot on eighteen at Oakmont and a laser iron shot balls.

00:27:10
Speaker 4: That didn't move an inch, you know.

00:27:12
Speaker 5: And if you think back, like I always think about tigers like cut six iron at the Canadian Open or tigers, you know that shot he hit at Olympia Fields where he bended it like you know, fifty yards left to right out of the rough, and those shots just don't exist anymore.

00:27:33
Speaker 3: No, no, they don't very often, but when they do, people love it and they talk about it.

00:27:39
Speaker 2: So it's just it's imperative that people in charge of the sport.

00:27:45
Speaker 3: I mean, that's what I guess where I scratch my head is you think they would study these things and know what viewers respond to. I mean, look at tracer. Look there's a reason tracer has become popular and demanded.

00:28:00
Speaker 2: By the viewer.

00:28:01
Speaker 3: Part of it is to have instant feedback. Part of is it just looks cool if you're sitting around in or where it's going. And then then when you see a player move the ball either in a in a bad way or a good way.

00:28:15
Speaker 2: It's it's sort of it's it's it's.

00:28:17
Speaker 3: Just visually it's interesting and it gets your attention so that the signs are there. But the concern is that the people in charge think that, you know, it's just all the usual stuff that young young people want to see. These guys be athletes and respond to distance.

00:28:39
Speaker 2: And on and on and and I.

00:28:42
Speaker 3: Just don't think that logically that case can be validated. I mean, I would love to see the numbers if they did some study on this. But we're impressed with somebody's stats, but we're not really Visually, it doesn't it doesn't do anything for us when we're watching.

00:29:00
Speaker 5: Yeah, I also think like set up wise, like firm and fast is so so important. I think about last year like two of the the best maintained venue, like they stick out in my mind, Like I don't like TPC Potomac from an architecture standpoint, but that tournament last year was so crispy, so firm and fast that it was.

00:29:22
Speaker 4: It was fascinating.

00:29:23
Speaker 5: But what it does is it when it's firm and fast, it brings variety into the game. It devalues the driver, which sounds so counterintuitive, but it's like golf, like within anything, when the ball rolls that that brings more players into the mix than just the power hitters because it decreases their margin for.

00:29:43
Speaker 3: Er sure, and that's what will we'll hopefully be on display at Chinakak Kills in a few weeks. I don't I don't know, And it's so weather dependent. It's it's been a rough year. But I'm about to start going through for for Golf Week to do the ten plays to watch and it's kind of a tough one when you don't have when when most of the field has never been there, but you kind of have to assume that they'll try to get it that way. Like the year Corey paven won it got to that point. It also got to that point in two thousand and four, but it went too far. And by the way, that's one thing I've been not to go off into that, but you know, Shinnecock people are are kind of fascinated by the widening and the numbers versus last time, and how could they possibly be wider even though they just narrowed it and this that was like you have to remember, they're just like with Aaron Hills, They're they're expecting when and getting it really firm and fast, and they're accounting for that, and guess what, sometimes that doesn't those two things don't happen, and so when isn't it better though to air on the side of players being able to attack and they just when the weather's down or the firmness doesn't happen, they score and and they're still playing a very hard golf course. I just don't understand the idea of people not quite understanding that. You just it's very hard to get it all dialed in, and obviously, especially when you have no control over the weather, so sometimes it's just not going to be perfect. There are there is an ideal, and you have to account for the ideal with the width of the course.

00:31:19
Speaker 2: And they did that at Aaron Hills. It didn't happen. They're gonna they did. They really did it at Sennacock And although now I've heard they're.

00:31:26
Speaker 3: Rewindening, so I in a couple spots, I maybe we'll get some reports from the media day today on that.

00:31:33
Speaker 5: Yeah, it sticks with me, is what Jeff Ogilvy said on that State of the Game last week is you know, the great golf holes are ones that a tour pro if they want to make a par, can almost always make a par. But all of a sudden, they get so hard when they try and make birdie. And to me, that is like the core of golf is like, if you want to play safe and make a par, it's pretty simple for that tour pro, But when they have to really get aggressive and make that birdie, that's when they bring six or seven into play.

00:32:13
Speaker 4: And that it is just such a simple concept.

00:32:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it requires good design and it requires a setup the matches, and I know that's where your beef with with Trinity was. I think it could have had exactly that last week and and they'll know, no doubt, sit back and realize.

00:32:32
Speaker 2: That as they after they evaluate it.

00:32:34
Speaker 3: But I also think that, you know, year one, they had to make sure they didn't they didn't mess that up and go too far the other way and then make guys watching go, well, that was goofy and we don't need to see that. So where That's why we have something to look forward to next year when they returned to Trinity.

00:32:54
Speaker 4: For us, where would you rank Trinity Forest in your say, PG eight regular PGA tour stops.

00:33:03
Speaker 3: Wow, well, I mean it's again, I mean, I'm the wrong person to asking that.

00:33:07
Speaker 2: I'm looking at peer design. But that's an interesting question.

00:33:11
Speaker 3: Because peer design wise, you know, to me on the tour, it's Pebble and Riviera are kind of in another area, another sphere. Really, Augusta to me has been just too too mangled and too many spots to be and even Riviera has been even Pebble has been. But if we're match playing holes and all that, those two generally are always near the top. And I mean, to me, Trendy Forrest is already in the top, easily in the top five. I'm struggling to I mean, I'm not a Harbortown fan, So you have to remember that I'm not one of those who thinks small greens and trees overhanging and all that is just that that great. So I mean, peer design wise, if we got into a match play tournament, I think Trinity Forest would would hold up really well. I mean, you just and again a lot of people sent sent messages like what what do you tell this course is just I don't get it, and I'm just like, you just have to see it on the ground. CBS just didn't quite capture. But every hole has some twist to it and and so many interesting elements and such beautiful construction, and I think the thing there just there just wasn't a there is a feeling of randomness to all the contours out there. But then I just could tell early on that it's a kind of course and why Speed has has grown to love it as he's played it, that there is meaning to all of the contours, and that that they gave you elements to workshots off of to certain holes. And you know, to me, the great random designs like that seemingly random actually have things that as a player you learn and you you can remember key features and you know, when you hit it in the wrong side, you're screwed, and that kind of thing.

00:35:04
Speaker 2: So it was just had a lot going on. It's really sensational.

00:35:08
Speaker 5: One of the best things that happened, I think was that that delay let people see the front nine more so than they would have seen had it not been delayed on Sunday. But like the seventh, the seventh hole, that par five is one of the most fun holes to watch guys hit second shots. It's reachable for every player in the field, and they you know, Bill and Ben leave that right side. They're seventy yards of short grass right of the green, just wide open. You can bail out right all day. And these guys started to figure out that that was dead over there, but they didn't want to take on that the hazard line which the greens pressed right up against. And you could just see them the agony in their face when they watched their ball starting to go right because they just couldn't get it over to the left, like and you could just tell from their facial expressions they're like, Uh, there's no way I can make Bertie from over there, you know, or I'd have to hit a miraculous shot to make Bertie from over there. Yeah, and that is so great, you know, from a design standpoint of forcing people into discomfort if they want to get the reward of a birdie.

00:36:19
Speaker 3: Well, especially with all the short grass and the width and and and yeah, you're right. As they went they started to know the nuances of the design. And Matt Jones almost made an incredible up and down by the way when he bailed out right there.

00:36:34
Speaker 4: Believable chip shot here.

00:36:36
Speaker 3: But yeah, I and the other thing on that too, what I loved was there was there was a great shot.

00:36:41
Speaker 2: It was probably accidental, but.

00:36:44
Speaker 3: Of the players on eight green and you saw the players in seven in the distance right there kind of and both were watching each other. Again, that was very That was just a cool little links like touch that was That was just there were just so many elements like that I thought were fascinating. I eight never really quite played from what I grasped to your point on the front nine.

00:37:07
Speaker 2: Coverage is the way I hoped.

00:37:09
Speaker 3: Because I saw so much of a PGA tour live seemed to have a lot of front nine coverage. And I don't know if that was just the green softness, but it didn't quite.

00:37:22
Speaker 5: I think they were pretty concious with pins too. Yeah, the whole locations were left a little bit to be desired.

00:37:32
Speaker 4: And teas.

00:37:33
Speaker 5: I think they moved so many te's up that golf course was playing about two three hundred yards shorter than it could And I think that, especially when you look at like seventeen, having that tea like twenty thirty yards up kind of diminishes what was built with the contouring.

00:37:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that one's on speech. I think he kind of issued a statement there early in the week. I don't think he likes that hole at two hundred yards, And it sounded to me like he had he had been when they asked his thoughts. That was probably it sounded just, yeah, just picking a party's comments. That sounded to me like the one. I don't want to say ultimatum, But the one piece of input he gave him was that that hole just plays better to him in the one fifty to one seventy range.

00:38:29
Speaker 2: And I would agree with you.

00:38:30
Speaker 3: I it would have been fun just see one day, then play seventeen longer and see what happens, you know, maybe Sunday.

00:38:38
Speaker 5: It's it's an epidemic of this soliciting player feedback for changes, like, of coursepcially.

00:38:48
Speaker 3: Since two hundred yards is a it's a seven or six iron. Now it seems like, so come on, guys, you can you can do it. You can hit a six iron.

00:38:58
Speaker 2: I know you can. You're really talented. Come on.

00:39:00
Speaker 5: I think I think there's like a George Low quote that's like, you know, it's the it's the job of equipment manufacturers and instructors to continue to make players better and figure things out. And then it's the job of the architect to combat this with thoughtful design.

00:39:17
Speaker 4: And that's a perfect example of it.

00:39:20
Speaker 5: Is like combat the high trajectory shot with contours that require a low running shot to get it close.

00:39:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, And and I just I was amazed how wigged out guys were by that hole. And I think that was also a product of just how little they practiced the course and played.

00:39:40
Speaker 2: Well. First of all, there was there was so clearly last year the.

00:39:44
Speaker 3: Feedback and Speed touched on this in his post Round with press conference yesterday. The feedback from the caddies on that caddy day was awful, and it was the course was really firm and fast, and it was having new green firmness, and obviously some of the veteran caddy understood that that there's a different there's firm and then there's that new turf firmness where where you just can't hold any.

00:40:08
Speaker 2: Kind of shot. And so some of them, obviously I took that into account.

00:40:13
Speaker 3: But that hole may have been the one that that freaked them out the most from that word of mouth element. But that said, uh, it's it should have been one where they adjusted or ignored them. But I can't remember where were we going down? Which which rat hole were we about to go do?

00:40:32
Speaker 4: So what, uh, we'll change the subject.

00:40:35
Speaker 2: What Okay?

00:40:37
Speaker 4: What did you feel I think?

00:40:40
Speaker 5: I mean watching the CBS coverage, I just don't really think they did much to showcase the course. They talked a lot about options, but yeah, there wasn't anything that I feel like they dropped it really dropped the ball when it comes to having an opportunity to inform and educate viewers about this different style of golf. And I read, you know, you read replies to you know, different big outlets, tweets about the course being so cool, and you see so many people that are like, what it looks like a cow pasture? So I mean, what would you have done if you were running the broadcast differently.

00:41:18
Speaker 3: Well, I mean for starters, you have the plane, thank god that started flying when CBS went on the air, so that the PGA Tour live and Golf Channel coverage literally was like watching a golf tournament from about thirty years ago. I mean just just ground camera shots. I still don't even remember seeing a shot from that crane camera they had out there, which would have been really nice to see more of, especially you had so many spots on the course, we had intersections where where that should have been more useful. I mean, give us a shot of seventeen of speed shots what Tommy Roy calls for NBC of that ball flying and then landing if somebody was landing.

00:42:00
Speaker 2: It short of the part three green.

00:42:01
Speaker 3: But for instance, I mean, it's how hard is it?

00:42:05
Speaker 2: You have the airplane, okay, and I know.

00:42:07
Speaker 3: It's moving at a decent clip, but you can pause above the third hole. You can you can freeze a shot that that. If you can't, if you don't want to use the digital graphics, just give us an aerial view of the third hole and use a telestrator to say, okay, when the pin's over here in the back right you do want to drive it past this fairway bunker to get the better angle in And Zach Blair and Joel Domen are having a nice little friendly back and forth on that right now on Twitter.

00:42:39
Speaker 2: But show that strategy.

00:42:41
Speaker 3: Use the telestrator to say, Okay, Saturday, today's pen. You know you've got to get a pass this bunker. So far this week, everybody's just automatically laid up. Give us just the basic strategy there. Give us some sense of some of the things you're talking about with the fifth hole or on the back, I mean fourteen, there were.

00:43:01
Speaker 2: So many little elements they could have pointed out eighteen with the telestrator. I don't even know if there was a telestrator on the property. It just it was it. If Fox would have done a great job.

00:43:15
Speaker 3: They're the ones who've been the most interested in golf course design of just getting a few camera views, maybe up behind the tee a little bit and getting up twenty yards or twenty feet in the air, just to give us that better sense of what the players looking at. But this was one that really needed either digital renderings of the greens or somebody, you know, like Johnny Miller does with a telestrator showing you just some basic basic arrows and lines what the issues are because the camera just flattened those contours out. I mean, people, you watched the tenth Green on television and you had no concept of about how wicked that green is and what's going on there, and a couple of little lines would would give you that sense. Why was that the second hardest hole for the week? Well, you know the best something.

00:44:05
Speaker 4: The best was on Saturday.

00:44:07
Speaker 5: I think Faldo said, well, you've moved on to That's a nothing hole.

00:44:11
Speaker 4: It's just a four hundred yard hole. It's like, oh my, if.

00:44:14
Speaker 5: You if you walk that golf course, if you saw that golf course at all and understood like what that green, you know how it was hitting a shot into that green. It's like, that is a terrifying golf shot. And and I think, like I think back to like those those Ogilvy videos that at and T the tournament. Yeah, I mean low production costs, Like those things costs nothing to do.

00:44:39
Speaker 4: And you know if they would have just even shown one of.

00:44:42
Speaker 3: Those, yeah, exactly, just play those Yeah it's going to and front commercial.

00:44:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like, you.

00:44:48
Speaker 5: Know, it's a they did a disservice to the tournament and the and the golf course and the way they covered the event. It's it's absolutely mind blowing, how like, you know, you've got this is your one job and you can't figure out at a very basic level, like how can we you know? I mean, that's the job of a telecast is to explain and feel like somebody sitting on their couch is there right?

00:45:14
Speaker 4: And this was the one story at this tournament. It wasn't the field, you.

00:45:19
Speaker 3: Know, no, no, In fact, it was a great way to get away from discussing that that there were people who surfaced in the field that we didn't have still played professional golf. And it requires a little bit of planning. It requires caring about architecture, and as you know, it's always a fight to convince broadcasters that the course is a big part of the story. Fox has embraced that more than NBC and CBS for sure. And then it requires I think a lot of the announced crew to arrive early or at some point and get out and watch some of the golf and and Ben the ears of Bill and Ben, and I'm sure that they.

00:46:07
Speaker 2: Did have discovery.

00:46:09
Speaker 3: But on the production side, you've got to kind of want to to make that venue a protagonist, and you know, generally, over and over again, they don't. And it's something that that is perplexing to me that the feeling is just keep showing shots and showing somebody putting for PARR. I mean, watching Kevin nauputt for PARR can take a minute and a half and you could have shown one of those Ogilvy videos.

00:46:36
Speaker 2: In that time and the viewer would have been fascinated by it and they wouldn't have changed the channel.

00:46:43
Speaker 5: I guarantee you that I think the you know, I've never looked at individual event ratings, but my general feel is that the most popular tour stops year to year are are Riviera and the you know, if you ask somebody to refer to the event in LA, they usually say Riviera. I would say another one is Sawgrass, which is architecturally interested, Pebble Beach, you know, like the best golf courses put on the best events.

00:47:14
Speaker 3: Also, sure, they're they're old friends that we we like to tune into and see how they've changed or not changed, and we recognize them and there's a comfort level there that that that certainly attracts people and it's just like with baseball stadiums.

00:47:32
Speaker 2: You're just more prone to watch.

00:47:34
Speaker 3: A game at Wrigley Field or Fenway Park or Yankee Stadium versus a game at the juice is that the Devil Rays play or the Rays play at or.

00:47:49
Speaker 5: What about the Astro Stadium where remember that when they came out they had the hill and the flag poles and play.

00:47:56
Speaker 2: Don't don't get me going on that pile of garbage.

00:48:00
Speaker 4: That was like a big water fall behind the eighteenth green.

00:48:08
Speaker 2: Oh well there, uh pretty much. Yeah. I mean they have the train. Do the train still go? I think it does when they hit a home run? I can't. I've tried. I try not to think about that.

00:48:18
Speaker 3: That that stupid park costs the Dodgers a World championship, and I it just it's just a noise to hell. I mean, well, they have the hill in center field, they got rid of that, but that rinking ink left field that you know, it's a little pitching wedge out of there and anyway.

00:48:33
Speaker 2: But yeah, So the point.

00:48:34
Speaker 3: Is though, that that there's an ambiance and whether people recognize it or not, they just kind of.

00:48:40
Speaker 2: Know it's there's certain places that are.

00:48:42
Speaker 3: Just more interesting to watch, and it really should be up to television to tell us a little bit more.

00:48:48
Speaker 2: I mean, that's another thing that's also lost is.

00:48:52
Speaker 3: Golf turn of telecasts used to have a little bit of a travelogue element, whether it was just blimp shots or Bob Drum or some little ferette that would kind of show you what's going on in that town. And Dallas has a lot of interesting stuff going on golf wise, but.

00:49:07
Speaker 2: You know, it's tough. They've got a lot of bills to pay and promost to run, and so all those things.

00:49:14
Speaker 3: Kind of chip away at at the ability to do some of these features too. But still, yeah, this is a year where I mean AT and T is a big sponsor, and they they they deserved I thought I thought they deserve better coverage.

00:49:33
Speaker 5: I'd say that, you know, I think you're in agreeance that it was a success, and say, say it opens the door to maybe some more interesting golf courses. What would be a few golf courses that you'd highlight that would be a feasible you know, everybody always said, oh Cyprus Point, like that's not gonna yeah, but a feasible golf courses, feasible golf courses that could host PGA tour events around the country that are unique and offer different challenges from you know, the monotonous rough line, tree lined water hazard right golf we generally see.

00:50:13
Speaker 3: Do you have any nominations because I'm I'm struggling. I mean, it's just there's so many elements that go into hosting a tour event. From space wise and I mean Trinity Forrest, frankly is right on the edge of not space being capable. So and I you know, I haven't talked to fans. I got a couple of tweet responses saying, you know, the fan experience was a disaster, and I don't. I don't know the specifics that that was heat related or shuttle related, so I do want to find that out. But it was right on the edge of not being workable and in a lot of different ways, and I thought they made parts of the work. But I mean, like I'm looking at at a couple of lists right now, and now there are I'm not seeing any places that currently, uh are our places you'd love to see a tourament at. Not I'm not seeing any of those being functional, mostly geographically.

00:51:10
Speaker 2: I mean most of them are just in remote locations.

00:51:13
Speaker 5: One that jumps to my mind, and I don't know if the membership would ever want this or allow it.

00:51:20
Speaker 3: The answer is no, oh, but go ahead. It's whenever you preface it that way.

00:51:24
Speaker 5: Well, it comes with Steph Curry looking at at doing a event where he's the host col Club Cal Club.

00:51:32
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I looked at Cal Club one time on some aerials and I think it's a great choice. It's a fall event, it'd be more of a boutique tour event. I think that's a great nomination.

00:51:45
Speaker 4: There's some space too that you got there.

00:51:47
Speaker 2: There's a couple of schools nearby, as I recall, which helps.

00:51:51
Speaker 5: That it's close to there. And how cool would it be to see golf in San Francisco. That's something that bugs me is there's no regular tour event in Chicago or San Francisco.

00:52:05
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:52:06
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty amazing. Now, I mean San Francisco is gonna have a PGA championship.

00:52:12
Speaker 2: The Chicago. Does Chicago have a major? Nothing on Wow? Nothing on the schedule. That's amazing.

00:52:19
Speaker 3: Really, I mean that's probably a story that that needs to be hammered home a little bit more of the playoff event the Western Open becoming this sort of scatterbrain wrote a thing and then no majors to go to one of the arguably the best golf market in terms of at least support for tournaments in my lifetime, and certainly if you read the history, going back to Western Open was such a vital event.

00:52:49
Speaker 2: And when you think about all the other things going on, they.

00:52:51
Speaker 3: Haven't scholars and just the public golf scene and the number of great clubs. It's really astonishing what golf has done to that so that, uh, how New York obsessed it got, and how it's just just dropped Chicago for I can't really even I don't even know the reason.

00:53:09
Speaker 5: I think about, like, think about some of the cities that don't have regular tour stops. You've got Minneapolis, You've got Chicago, You've got Philadelphia, you have San Francisco, you have uh, I guess Cleveland. That's a pretty crazy golf area. Like the bid, you know, you they've taken away all the you know, and then you've got you've got a World Golf Championship in Memphis. And I know that this was a business move, but the World Golf Championships to me is maybe the the biggest failure in golf from providing, Like you know, you only get the best players in the world together eight times a year, four of them at the majors, and then you know the other four you play at at Now it will be Firestone to TPC south Wind, you play Austin Country Club, which it's a nice little course, but like I mean, you get the best players in the world together play premier golf courses.

00:54:16
Speaker 3: Well, and that that is an a venue that gives you an example of some of the dilemmas involved with trying to find good venues for a tour event. I mean, Austin Country Club gets paid probably better than any venue on the tour to host, and visually it looks great and it works for match play, so I have no beef with it. But it does show you that there are some places where the members don't want it, or they just the place doesn't fit for television or for spectators, and so there it is tricky. But now you did in the tours defense, you reeled off some cities there where they are making an effort to try to get there's somebody who really wants to host a tour event in Minneapolis to convert that champions event. San Francisco clearly is a market.

00:55:01
Speaker 2: That I'm in.

00:55:02
Speaker 3: The PGA of America's got two PGAs going there, the only two West Coast PGAs, by the way, in the next ten years on the schedule, and they have this possible STEPH Curry event. And you mentioned one other city I'm drawing a blank now on that has something in the works.

00:55:21
Speaker 2: Oh, Philadelphia.

00:55:22
Speaker 3: I think there's definitely an interest by various organizations. I mean, I think Ironomic is going to get a PGA Philadelphia Cricket Club is going to get more attention.

00:55:33
Speaker 4: Something more events. They're going to lose Boston though probably with the Dell.

00:55:37
Speaker 2: Right, they're gonna lose what I'm sorry, Boston.

00:55:40
Speaker 4: The Boston event.

00:55:42
Speaker 2: Ah.

00:55:43
Speaker 3: Yeah, although I'm having I'm having some some I'm just sensing that there's going to be an effort to say that. I just don't think that because if you if you release a new tour schedule and not to go down the rat hole of markets, because most people probably could care less about the business side. But if you go ahead with the schedule they're talking about, you say goodbye to Boston. You've turned New York and or you turn New York into a ROTA that includes Boston every four years, so you kind of arguably you can make a case you've diluted that, although there's so many majors in New York for the next eight years that it doesn't probably matter. You've said basically goodbye to Chicago in this new concept that's just getting into some that's just really not making sense. And I just have a hard time visualizing the amount of money they've put into TPC Boston, Jay Monahan's ties there, the success of that event at a place that's not even that well located theoretically, and what that event has done in short time. I just can't believe that that's one that they're going to be able to say goodbye to that easily. And I kind of wonder if some of this stuff going on with the scheduling is is also quietly related to that if a sponsor has has stepped up, even if that event went to a non playoff event, because of course most of us could care less, uh and and and maybe finished and was played a week earlier. In that that stretch between the playoffs and and the last and the Open Championship, I don't know just seems like that's a that's one that it will be really.

00:57:21
Speaker 2: Odd to say goodbye to.

00:57:23
Speaker 3: That's a that's a big golf area as well, and a beautiful time of year.

00:57:26
Speaker 2: And so we'll see.

00:57:29
Speaker 3: They have a lot of tough questions right now to deal with and not much time.

00:57:34
Speaker 4: Now, what's what's the latest with the weather in New York this time of year for those PGAs that not only the beth Page next year, but uh, how's Rochester looking these days?

00:57:44
Speaker 2: Yeah?

00:57:45
Speaker 3: Actually Rochester had nicer weather last week than beth Page. I was I was monitoring, uh several of the local or several of the sites. I had them on my weather app and it wasn't very pretty for uh for future PGAs at a few plays is. But kels Fornia was super little fog.

00:58:05
Speaker 2: If you don't mind them. The May gray.

00:58:07
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, beth Page was that was that was gonna be a rough one. That was not going to be a pleasant tournament. And as the Preakness showed, the mid Atlantic wasn't real hot, and Kiowa had some some issues and on on down the list. So I I just I'm really curious to see how this May thing works. And with only two West Coast venues in there.

00:58:31
Speaker 4: But I'm wondering what will be worse Saint Louis in August, or or New York and May.

00:58:39
Speaker 3: Well, Yeah, it just depends on what you like. But I certainly not looking forward to Saint Louis in August. However, I think there's a good chance it'll finish on time. And I'm wondering about the May stops finishing on Sundays, as we just saw this this week.

00:58:56
Speaker 5: So what are you, you know, looking ahead to here? We've got kind of an interesting stretch. We've got Colonial, We've got Memorial, We've got TPC south Wind. Personally, I find the most riveting.

00:59:10
Speaker 2: I don't know how that's fit, but yes, go ahead.

00:59:13
Speaker 5: My most riveting thing is is Monday qualifying for the Air Sectional, qualifying for the US Open.

00:59:19
Speaker 3: In this stretch, yeah, if I had the list, I mean in the next month, what I'm most interested in is probably on on US Open qualifying.

00:59:29
Speaker 2: I'd say number two.

00:59:30
Speaker 3: The n c A Golf, both the men and the women. I just you know, I love match play and I love the dynamics that go on there.

00:59:39
Speaker 2: Then I'd probably ranked the Memorial and then the Colonial and.

00:59:43
Speaker 3: Then I'd probably ranked the the LA City Minamateur ahead of the TPC south Wind week. That just doesn't That just doesn't excite me much. So, But in terms of you know, good competition or golf courses, yeah, I think that the I'm speaking of weather, I hope the NCAA's get some good weather.

01:00:04
Speaker 2: That's kind of a tough time year there too.

01:00:06
Speaker 3: And then obviously Shinnecock's just utterly fascinating on every level setup wise, Architecturally, I'm anxious to see how it looks with the I've only peered through the trees from the National a few years ago during the Walker Cup to see the tree removal.

01:00:22
Speaker 2: It looks great.

01:00:23
Speaker 3: Seventh Green hasn't changed since two thousand and four, so I'm anxious to see that.

01:00:29
Speaker 2: So it's gonna be great.

01:00:31
Speaker 3: And then and then we have a right after that, We've got We've got the Scottish Open at Gullin and the Open Championship at Carnoussie, so a couple of really fun venues on that front too.

01:00:44
Speaker 5: That's one of the things with it, go back to the schedule that kind of boggles my mind is that you know, the PGA Tour obviously they wanted to.

01:00:53
Speaker 4: Avoid the the.

01:00:56
Speaker 5: NFL season, but yeah, you know, like the European Tour kind of owned between the US Open and Open Championship, and I think we still will and then you just you just hand it over the prime prime golf month.

01:01:12
Speaker 4: In the in the country to own.

01:01:15
Speaker 5: Also with the with the September on is going to be you know, premiere event after premier event at a great time of year to play golf.

01:01:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, in the US.

01:01:25
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, So that's a head scratcher to me. I think the year from the big from the schedule changes, I think the European Tour is going to be the biggest winner.

01:01:34
Speaker 2: It seems that way.

01:01:36
Speaker 3: The BMW PGA has just not been great in May and it'll be phenomenal in September.

01:01:41
Speaker 2: I think. You know.

01:01:43
Speaker 3: The question though, is that they have to deliver eyeballs for a sponsor to be happy, and the fall events just don't get great ratings. The question I guess though, that I would pose is is, well, one, the NFL are dropping a little bit, so Sundays are a little more competitive for a variety of reasons.

01:02:06
Speaker 2: They're still ridiculously good.

01:02:08
Speaker 3: But the other question that I have is you know that time of year is so great. It looks great on TV, but nobody really never toyed with the idea of a tournament that that's played and finishes on a on a Friday. And I guess, you know, the volunteer wise.

01:02:26
Speaker 2: And and all that good stuff, that.

01:02:29
Speaker 3: It's just really hard to convince a sponsor to to play a tournament Tuesday through Friday to avoid college football and the NFL. But I uh, I also just I'm of the belief that that September is tough, and but but by by October, the before the days get too short, that.

01:02:54
Speaker 2: By then people know what their football.

01:02:57
Speaker 3: Team's doing, and they might actually they've gotten the euphoria of the first few games and they might be more into watching playoff golf in October. But obviously that theory was not subscribed to by the PGA Tour. And so yeah, we're looking at all these compromises, changes, moves designed all around this finish, and you throw in the WGC events and it's a nightmare, and you know, it's it's a mess, and you just have to wonder if all this is worth making this whole playoff thing work. And obviously it is financially because the FedEx Cup pays these guys a lot of money and the tour's job is to give them playing opportunities for money.

01:03:45
Speaker 5: So yeah, it just seems like the you know, with the consolidation, the events that get hurt the most are the non WGC non majors.

01:03:55
Speaker 4: Yeah.

01:03:55
Speaker 3: No, if you took away the WGCs tomorrow, suddenly Houston probably gets a sponsor and you get events that have been weakened get stronger again. I mean, they've really just done. They are number one on my list of the problem. The playoffs, Fine.

01:04:12
Speaker 2: I get it.

01:04:13
Speaker 3: Whatever, if that works, it works, maybe better format, but the w GC's have just they're just I mean, look look what the Mexico City one does to the Florida Swing and just taking away some players who would who would play Florida events. It's usually good for the event the week before or in the vicinity usually.

01:04:38
Speaker 2: But they're they're they're just dreadful there.

01:04:40
Speaker 3: I mean, this one and now they're going to find one a spot for the one and that that's gonna be in Memphis, and I don't see how there's there's just no way it's going to be in the slot between the the the Open Championship, and the first playoff event. No one will play I don't care how much, Uh they tell the guys that it's FedEx, they just won't. They're not gonna play Memphis in August, so that one's gonna move somewhere to a spot that's that's better.

01:05:09
Speaker 2: For it and there and then it'll it'll hurt some other events.

01:05:13
Speaker 3: So they're just the wgc's and then they're just just generally not.

01:05:19
Speaker 2: Guaranteed to be great excitement.

01:05:21
Speaker 3: There have certainly been good ones, but then the small fields also mean that that there are gonna be some real duds.

01:05:28
Speaker 5: If you if you are going to redesign, renovate, or restore one, two or course, which one would you pick? You could completely blow it up if you really liked the land and building.

01:05:42
Speaker 3: So the so it's an existing venue, uh I think, I mean, I guess I hate calling Pebble Beach a tour course, but to me, it's the one that most screens out when you look at what it used to be, uh needing to be to be restored, to kind of join the movement of what's gone on at Wingfoot or l a country club. I mean, go down the list of the places that have had the really great restorations and where you just say, you know, National Golf Links and I think now Shintacock's probably in that that category where you just look at it and you go, well, that's just that's just perfection that that place is as good as it could possibly be. It's just all it's like a painting that was dusty and they've they've just brought it all back. And Pebble's the one that that stands out. I mean, Riviera They've they've made a mess up too, obviously, but Pebble's the one where it would just make an incredible statement. And uh, but they have no incentive to to do anything. It's just the financial cost of shutting it down for the period of time and uh, you know, economic impact on the on the area would be.

01:06:53
Speaker 5: It'd be fascinating to see if if there was any data with like pine number two undergoing the restoration and you know they shut down obviously, but before and after, and if it made a financial impact, because like I looked at Pinehurst number two and that's got to be one of the most important restorations, maybe the most important restoration that that golf had in the last thirty years.

01:07:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, I would say the difference there is their play had really started to fall off because people would go there, and so why am I paying four hundred dollars to play someplace that looks like other than the greens, looks like a lot of other courses around. You know, there's nothing special here, whereas Pebble's always had no matter what, even in the years when it wasn't in great shape, it's always had the setting and the history, and so it was able to get by on that, and then the lodge and the area and the lodge has generally been a great operation. So it's it's been able to overcome things, whereas I don't think Pinehurst was it was it had reached a point where it really couldn't overcome those deficiencies. So yeah, so I think, I mean, I'm just I can't really think of any other golf course it quite screams out the need for a full rejuvenation like Pebble Beach.

01:08:26
Speaker 2: Again.

01:08:27
Speaker 3: I mean, it's great if you went there tomorrow and played, you'd have a blast, But when you know that, what's kind of been lost in some of the holes and some of the nuances and the look, the visual it it could be amazing.

01:08:42
Speaker 4: All right, let's get to overrated underrated here, track Man.

01:08:51
Speaker 3: Underrated in every regard I think, except by players, good players they know.

01:08:58
Speaker 2: But I've had the chat a few.

01:09:02
Speaker 3: Times recently with people on the distance topic or on the on the ball striking topic, and and even people who really know the game, I'm not sure they've really delved into, uh what a profound impact it's having on players, and in so many different ways. You know, some guys that make some practice more. Some it's just a fitting thing.

01:09:22
Speaker 2: Some it's just a legitimate tool to make little adjustments. Uh, that's what's fascinating about it, is it? It? It?

01:09:29
Speaker 3: It's impacting players in many different ways. Is that what you've had it as an underrated I.

01:09:34
Speaker 5: Presume by your Yeah, I think I think it's underrated in this whole distance debate. Is the whole idea of like people figured out how to optimize the launch and everything, and I mean it's it's an interesting you can never take that away, and that's that makes the ball needing to be rolled back all the more important.

01:10:01
Speaker 3: Yep, you're not going you know you're not getting a disagreement from me.

01:10:04
Speaker 4: On that all right, is UH is with overrated or underrated?

01:10:13
Speaker 3: UH, it's it's certainly underrated if the design.

01:10:18
Speaker 2: Is UH one where you could use the with UH, so it's it's misunderstood.

01:10:27
Speaker 3: But I, like I said earlier in the show, the way the guys are able to control the ball with irons now to firm greens, it's it's becoming it's becoming very hard to.

01:10:39
Speaker 2: To UH to design in a way that makes good use of the width, and also how far they can hit a ball down a hole. You know they're not hitting I mean, they're just not hitting long iron.

01:10:51
Speaker 3: So with this great when you also have a hole where they have a long iron and the smart guy can Brian gaik and or Web Simpson can hit their little little cut high from the left side because they wisely hit a nice little draw down the left to give themselves the best angle to that far right pin and be able to play with Dustin Johnson who hit her down the right side but has a has an eight iron but a crappy angle. But now, if Dustin Johnson can hold that green even when it's a little firm with eight iron, the width becomes kind of I don't want to say overrated, but it just it's just as muted.

01:11:29
Speaker 4: It just becomes I think I think that with uh.

01:11:32
Speaker 5: I think the thing people focus on is like how wide it is, But like I think what you hit on is for the variety of players. With is so important because that with allows shorter guys a chance. And if it's narrow with thick rough, like you know, everybody's gonna miss fairways, you know, And it with allows a shorter hitter who's a little bit more tactical, tactical, tactical and and accurate to really play a different style of golf and use their strength versus when it's when it's long and narrow, they just have no chance.

01:12:09
Speaker 3: No, no, especially when you read the comments of guys like I mean female and there was adult Wall Street journal piece last week where he just you know, bomb and Gouage is back. It's just there is unless the rough is lost ball rough. It's just stupid for him to ever think about playing back when he can advance the ball and have a sand sandwich and versus a sixth hron just doesn't make sense. Yeah, that's not a good place to be for competitive golf.

01:12:38
Speaker 4: So last one a good caddy.

01:12:42
Speaker 3: Oh, definitely underrated, you know, I mean, whether it's a recreational round where they just a good one just knows how to to, knows when to speak and when not to. And then obviously on the tour, just watch you know last week how important the caddy was because of course nobody apparently could play eighteen holes anymore in practice for whatever reason, So the caddies were just so heavily relied on last week. And you know, I don't know what Aaron Wise's caddy did for him. It may not have mattered the way he hit the ball, but there were certainly other guys who I guarantee you if you went back and talked to him about the effort that caddy made to scope out the course on Monday and or even the year before, it would be really interesting to hear where they can kind of now look back and go, well, he saved me a couple of shots because he just said, do not go at that pen kind of thing. So I would I would let you know, but that's kind of that's going deep in the areas that and now, of course, if you want to ask those questions of players and caddies, it's a top secret information that. I mean, I try to follow up. Were you there when Billy Hurley was talking about course stats? Billy Hurley, one of my touchies, horse Billy Horshall, was in uh and and he started talking about his analysis, and you know he's turned that over to his caddy and his stat person, and I tried to ask a follow up, saying so and not.

01:14:19
Speaker 2: I just thought it was fascinating. But of course he's.

01:14:21
Speaker 3: You know, he thinks I'm out to get him and and all that. I don't know why, but he he uh let it out there that you kind of touched around it. But they basically would look at the golf course after thirty six holes and adjust their game plan based on some of the shot link data. And I think that's just I just think that's fascinating.

01:14:40
Speaker 2: I mean, you.

01:14:41
Speaker 3: Imagine players of the past would love to be able to do that. And he was like, I don't want to give any any secrets. Yeah, I like, I don't want your secrets. I just want to confirm. So you're gonna know there's a good chance you'll take that data. You guys will say, well, everybody driving the fifth Green is averaging three point nine, whereas the guy's laying up are averaging three point five, So why aren't we just laying up that kind of thing?

01:15:06
Speaker 2: Is that's cool?

01:15:07
Speaker 3: I think that's fascinating, And but most of the players don't ever want to talk about that.

01:15:11
Speaker 2: I want.

01:15:11
Speaker 3: I tried to do a story on that, and they just I that's that's sort of between me and my stack guy, like it's a doctor patient privileged situation. Like, guys, you please calm down now, one, these are not these are not important matters. It's okay, there are people who would find this interesting. It's it's you're not going to give away the secret sauce.

01:15:34
Speaker 5: I think you're missing the most valuable caddy of the weekend, guy that beats up your competitor.

01:15:41
Speaker 3: Well okay, yeah, now that's another that's another dynamic that you know a good caddy does he waits in the parking lot and sucker punches somebody, maybe after a couple of drinks, maybe not, I don't know.

01:15:56
Speaker 2: Allegedly, it's all this is all alleged.

01:16:00
Speaker 4: Front for those not picking up. This is the the Odds story to story of the Florida mid An this this week, so hopefully.

01:16:09
Speaker 2: Details in Florida.

01:16:11
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's as you put it, Uh, you know, the stream soeng caddy shack must be an interesting Wow.

01:16:17
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're both they're both employed there, and I think, thankfully the caddy shacks a little quieter in the summertime, so maybe they're not there, maybe they moved on to the cooler climates. But yeah, I having worked in a caddy shack a little bit in my my youth, I.

01:16:34
Speaker 2: Can imagine that that dynamic is awkward.

01:16:39
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's the good news is that if you're playing a stream song, they've got you the player in their best interests.

01:16:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know.

01:16:49
Speaker 2: If you want to suffer a bunch of resort yests. I don't know if that's going to work for you.

01:16:54
Speaker 3: Allegedly allegedly, Yeah, there were signs on the inside of his mouth of of bleeding.

01:17:02
Speaker 4: Yeah, concussion like symptoms.

01:17:04
Speaker 3: Trying like the story twice. So it's very confusing and it kind of needs I mean, it's not that Ryan Lamberdean did a great job writing it. It's just it's just, uh there you gotta know the names, and it's a little tricky to follow, but it's it's it is Uh, it certainly is is taking things to a different level.

01:17:20
Speaker 5: Yeah, we got to go to uh our our friend of the pod, Kyle and sometimes co host Kyle Nathan.

01:17:26
Speaker 4: He's gonna he's gonna give us the dirt.

01:17:28
Speaker 5: He was on the ground, so uh but uh, hey, Jeff, thanks for coming on, Thanks for the time. Always enjoy uh enjoy the banter and uh for listeners. You can find Jeff at his website Jeffshackle for dot Com. Uh writing also on Golf Week and on Morning Drive. You got anything exciting coming up?

01:17:50
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I'm doing a couple of things for Golf Week for US Open preview, kind of recapping the two thousand and four debacle, and we are working on a feature for the coverage during the US Open on that course set up thing and kind of the things that have come out of it that allowed the USGA to basically not repeat what happened in that setup. So it was this zainy event. You know, I going back and reading all that, so it's I think it's going to be interesting to kind of rehash that. And you know what makes it interesting in is that the last US Open at Chinnacock two thousand and four followed Olympia Fields where there was a sense the year before the course was pretty easy and the players kind of had their way with it, and here we are again.

01:18:44
Speaker 2: Deja vu all over again.

01:18:45
Speaker 3: There was that sense that Aaron Hill's players had their way with it, and we tightened some fairways at Chinnacock apparently, and now we're even maybe nudging a few of them out from a couple of reports I got. But the same dynamic this that that occurred last time. The difference is, you know, the U s g A has better step mean readings, better weather forecasting, true firm to to measure firmness, and then of course moisture readings to to track all that. So they have no excuse theoretically. But if you've ever seen the seventh Green at Shinnecak Hills.

01:19:21
Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what green speed that green works at. So it's gotta be a lot of fun.

01:19:27
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's uh, because we don't have to play it.

01:19:29
Speaker 2: We don't have to set it up.

01:19:31
Speaker 4: Yeah, very true.

01:19:33
Speaker 2: We just watch.

01:19:34
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the nice thing about being a viewer. And I forgot shack House, you know, So yes, podcast.

01:19:41
Speaker 3: We got a couple of interesting guests possibly coming up, so all us open preview related so I'm excited about that too.

01:19:50
Speaker 5: Awesome, awesome, Well, thanks for coming on again and we'll talk to you soon.

01:19:55
Speaker 2: All right.

01:19:56
Speaker 3: I enjoyed the enjoyed the chatting today and and last week, and don't worry, it'll be farmer and faster next to you.

01:20:01
Speaker 4: All right. Hopefully you've been listening to the fried Egg Podcast. We do the digging for you.