Saltburn: Antisocial Personality Disorder & Dysfunctional Families

Welcome to Popcorn Psychology, the podcast where we watch blockbuster movies and psychoanalyze them.
My name is Brittany Brownfield and I'm a child therapist and I'm joined by
Ben Stover, individual therapist, Hannah Espinozo, marriage and family therapists. We're
all licensed clinical professional counselors also known as therapists, who practice out of Chicago.
Even though we are licensed mental health professionals, this podcast is purely for
entertainment purposes and to fulfill our love of dissecting pop culture and all forms.
Please remember that, even though we are all licensed therapists, we aren't your
therapist. If you are struggling with mental health symptoms, please find a local
mental health provider. Hello everybody, there's been a murder on the dance floor
because the day we were finally talking about Saltburn. So Saltburn we made sure
to do early this season of our our podcast because it has been requested.
I think as soon as it hit the screens. As soon as it hit
the screens, people have been asking us to do Saltburn. Right at the
top, I think we should do a content warning and that Ben does not
like this movie. That's very important. To point that out at this juncture.
I'm just going to point out that I didn't point that out. Well,
I just we needed to get ahead of it. We did. I
did say we already said barf. Yes exactly, we heard you. I
mean the bathtub scene. This is barf and that's it, just full context
bar So in talking about Saltburn, we will be talking about Oliver obviously,
and antisocial personality disorder. We will also be talking about the family he invades
conquers, and we'll be talking about family systems. Saltburn is about a young
man named Oliver Quick who enters Oxford and slowly ingratiates him into the life of
his very rich like ancestral wealth friend, Yes Felix, who eventually takes him
home to Saltburne, the estate of which he lives, for the summer,
and by the end of that summer that family has been cut in half.
So I assume that everyone wants us to talk about Oliver when they want us
to talk about saltburn I think that makes a lot of sense. I think
that's part of the reason why people have been requesting it so much. Yes,
I assume everyone wants us to answer the question what's wrong with Oliver Quick?
H Of course they do, because this is essentially a joker origin story.
So so I mean, I think there's only really one answer to what's
quote unquote wrong with Oliver Quick, which is that he displaying all of the
classic traits of antisocial personality disorder. Ding. Ding absolutely couldn't be more correct.
And typically when people say things like sociopaths, psychopast like that, as
we've said in many podcasts before, what they're actually usually talking about is someone
with antisocial personality disorder traits and tendencies. Yes, correct, Neither your psychopath
nor sociopath are any longer used as diagnostic terms. I am not sure at
what point sociopath got removed from the DSM, but it is absolutely not a
real term. What people used to use it for is that they used to
differentiate that a psychopath with someone who would kill coldly and show no reactions,
whereas a sociopath with someone who would only act out strongly once angry, and
then the bad things would happen. However, neither of those terms are real
or used, so any of that data is historical use only and no longer
considered accurate. It's not it's not clinical language that we use in any way,
shape or form, And honestly, it's basically a slur. Yeah,
I mean that's the way it's used. Is never used in like a clinically
helpful appropriate yeah, which obviously in our line of work with every diagnosis,
I hope everyone's using those diagnosis in consider it thoughtful ways. Yes, I
mean, I guess is basically one of the tenets of why this podcast exists
is to help people be more thoughtful about the terms they like to throw around.
Agreed. Yeah, And while we're speaking of being thoughtful, if you
guys could take a second real quick and leave us a review or add a
like to our social media pages, we'd really appreciate it. And when you
do use those reviews, please know that we thoughtfully also read them. So
anti social personal disorder, here's a quick psycho education corner for anyone interested.
So the symptoms of antisocial as per the Cleveland Clinic is the website I'm currently
looking at for reference. Physical aggression, hostility or violence towards others. Check
reckless or impulsive behavior. Check breaking the law or disregarding rules and social norms.
Check feeling angry, more powerful are better than others. So superiority check
using wit, flattery, and charm to manipulate, lie, or deceive others
for personal gain or enjoyment. Checkity check. Not taking responsibility for actions or
behaviors. Check not showing remorse, regret, or concern for behaviors. And
that's a check, y'all. Yeah, yeah, So, I think going
down the line, little mister Oliver hits every single beat. And I think
one thing that we need to point out here that we don't know about Oliver
is that most of the time when someone maybe all of the time. Actually
I could be wrong about that, people are diagnosed with conduct disorder as children.
I don't know if that's a criteria portion or not, though. Mm.
Yeah, it's important to recognize that oftentimes these behaviors start displaying themselves from
a very young age. Yes, yes, they don't always, but they
really do show up quite often, and it's usually a long standing pattern of
complete disregard for societal norms. Yeah, it's very ends justify the means not
really getting hung up on what you and I would get hung up on morally,
you know, not having sort of the social norms barriers between themselves and
what they want, yes, correct, The human beings frequently are seen as
a means to an end, and there's very little consideration for consequences. And
it's important to know that it's called anti social not because these people who live
with this diagnosis tend to avoid human contact that can happen, but they can
also be quite gregarious and charming and persuasive, persuasive. It could be very
charismatic. I guess that's the word I'm looking for. It doesn't mean they
want to hide away under the covers, away from everyone in the cave somewhere.
Oh. People have to say this a lot about like cereal codes,
right, that you should be able to feel them almost when they come upon
you. But that's not really how it goes. Like Ted Bundy real life
person, had a lot of charisma. It seemed to the point that like
one of his closest friends, Anne Rule, who was like a true crime
person, worked beside him during a lot of his stuff and never caught on
Yeah until I think some time after the fact, Yeah, or until there
were a lot of clues that made it undeniable that it was Ted. Yeah.
So Oliver is one of those people that is he can be charming,
and I think that's a good distinction. He can turn on charm when he
wants to. I think something I noticed, especially the first time I watched
the movie is there's this definite shift that occurs with an Oliver when he decides
to put on more of a sexual undertone in his conversations with the mom Elizabeth
and Venetia. It's like halfway through the movie he switches into this more sexual,
domineering, provocative person, like a cat like feline almost in nature.
And before that he presents as a typical kind of like nerd, like a
fish out of water at Oxford. Yeah, like shy and maybe looks a
little insure of himself. He's very observant, yes, but he hides it
really well when he is more in this like innocent guy. I'm just like
trying to be like everybody else. Yeah, but you can see when he
first shows up to Oxford that he's wearing what he assumes is like the uniform.
Like he's wearing he gets made fun of. He's wearing the scarf.
I think someone says, I don't know if it's Farley, but someone off
handedly says, like, oh, he's even wearing the scarf like kind of
making fun of him and passing because he definitely is dressed, like when he
goes to the first dinner and he's wearing the sweater over his shoulders. Yes,
like he is dressed like he thinks an Ivy League student dresses. And
because that's coming from a persona and not from an authentic place, it immediately
ironically not ostracizes him, but it keeps him separate. He just makes him
look like a dork. He looks, you know what, he feels like
a try hard, Absolutely, like a try hard from jump. Which is
interesting because as I'm sitting here thinking about it, his family house that we
end up seeing is quite large, and it doesn't seem like his family has
trouble with money, clearly not the way that he describes it, of course.
Oh they're comfortably middle class, Yeah, very comfortably. Yeah, they're
living out in the English suburbs doing just fine. Yeah exactly. And so
again this idea that he didn't know what it was like, or he wouldn't
know how to draw on what to be like here, I think is interesting
because it's clearly just a part of his This is how he was always going
to go to Oxford. Yeah, which could I guess if we're going to
pull in the symptoms of antisocial I mean, one thing we say a lot
on this podcast is all of our stays for a movie that where he's the
main character, he stays in enigma for the whole of the movie. Yes,
other than the glimpse we see of his actual family when he goes home,
he still remains a mystery in the sense of like, we don't know
what he was like as a kid. We don't really know the dynamic with
him and his parents other than they seem I don't know. They seem so
somewhat aware of his behavior, yes, but it's hard to gauge their comfort
level with him. They seem frustrated, Well, the dad seems frustrated,
but his mom seems kind of like on edge a little bit. I think
they've been aware he's dangerous for his whole life. And if we go with
the theory that most of them start displaying these behaviors since childhood, they know
he's extraordinarily smart because they don't have legacy lineage for him to get into Oxford,
true, and they know that he has anger streaks and likely runs hot
and cold and they know he lies. They know he lies, and he
engages only when he wants to. I'm sure. So he has likely been
extraordinarily manipulative and can flip up and down into his manipulative or angry states are
possibly even destructive, is my guess. And so why we're all detecting that
there's some kind of very disquieted discomfort with the family, I think it's probably
because they know about the things he does when he's unhappy. Yeah, because
I think we do definitely do get a feel from the parents that he's probably,
like you were saying, like we talk without antisocial. Usually there's stuff
that are happening prior to eighteen. Yes, if it's if it's severe enough,
it will get labeled conduct diagnosis conduct. He strikes me as someone who
probably hasn't that's maybe fined under the radar. Because what I will notice with
his mom is she seems to deal with him by not YEP. I could
tell even from that one scene and the fact that she because if I showed
up at my mom's house and she hasn't heard from me, and I even
con home for the summer or whatever, she'd be like, where have you
been? Like there would be some sense of that power dynamic where she feels
like she's allowed to question me and kind of get up in my grill a
little bit. And his mom doesn't do any of that. No, And
as soon as Oliver's like I should just go's she what's what I'm looking for?
She backs down very quickly, let him cool if he wants to go,
And his dad's the one that steps in is like, no, your
mom made a cake, your mom made lunch, don't like be thoughtful about
your mom. But she's like, I don't want it. It's like she's
scared of conflict. So she feels like someone who may be engaged with Oliver
by denial. Mm hmm. I mean I think there's a strong component of
that, and I think also it's likely that he is in firm control,
and that your sense of like they they learned to deal with him by not
probably came through trial and error where when they tried to clamp down on him
he turned up. Or even that maybe he's embarrassing in the sense that like,
he lies and they've caught him lying, but it's so uncomfortable to confront
the fact that he's being like weird like that that they're just like, oh,
you know, Oliver is Like I could also see them as just writing
him off as eccentric instead of really recognizing, like that's not typical behavior to
be that dishonest. Like it seems like they work to maintain the fantasy that
Oliver is selling because they both recognize that he will tell stories or whatever,
but then at the same time be like, and he's the top scholar,
like repeating the lies he's told them that are so audaciously big. Which is
also part of the superiority, right that so antisocial is that when he's telling
his parents about school, it can't just be like good enough that he's at
Oxford. He has to be the top scholar at Oxford, which is wild
and easy probably to disprove. And I wonder if a part of that is
knowing that they have to stroke his ego in order to deal with him,
Like maybe a part of the reason why they bring those things up is because
they know they have to appease him in some way in order to keep it
peaceful or maybe and maybe things are easier when he's not around. Yeah,
that's that's some of these siblings. That's what I was thinking too. I
wonder as he says that they had two sisters, my mind just went like,
yikes, yikes. Yeah, it's not uncommon for families to kind of
adjust to a life without someone that has caused chaos and be not necessarily the
most upset when they retreat from the dynamic. And also like, what a
nice situation for them that they can just brag to all their neighbors and family
that their sons at Oxford and they can just leave it at that, right,
Yeah, Because I think if something is true about Oliver is he can
be very off putting at times. Yeah, a lot of moments in the
movie where he's trying to fit in, especially in the beginning, and he's
not quite pulling it off right. He's trying. He's almost like trying different
angles with Felix, Like the being very like parental with him and like being
his little lap dog didn't work and it actually put Felix off. And I
think he figured out that Felix is a helper. Felix likes to help people,
and so he got him with the money thing, and then when everything
blew up with the cleaning and he gets pissed off and then doesn't invite him
to the pub, he gets him with my dad died and then he was
in yep. Yeah, it took him a lot to figure Felix out.
It did, it did, and then once he got it, he got
it. And I think another thing I saw that really caught my attention was
how fast he dropped that friend. Oh, that friend was is only his
friend because nobody else was his friend. And to be all all over side
a little bit, that friend sucked. Yeah, he wasn't great. He's
definitely the friend you only have because no one else wants to get drinks and
so I could definitely see you dropping that friend eventually. But the way he
drops it is so wild, like literally like I can't see you yeah,
yeah, moments. Well, and that's what I mean. How how coldly
he drops I mean, this guy, It's notable how quickly he dismissed him,
dismisses him very quickly, like yeah, that's was sad. I mean
he was sitting at a table with him and got up and went over and
then ignored it and then acted like he didn't exist right after I went to
the bathroom. Brutal. Yeah, And I think the movie does a good
job of post that of how you see Oliver like slowly change aesthetically behaviorally Like
I really like the shot in the movie when he gets offered cigarettes and he
says, I don't smell, and then the very next shot it's in most
lighting up a cigarette to smoke with Felix. That this movie does show very
quickly that Oliver has no problem slowly more thing into someone else to get his
needs met. And honestly, when that friend that he had that he ditched
confronts him later, I really don't think Oliver cared that he got called a
boot liquor. I don't think he cared either. I don't think I don't
think he cared because I think he'll do anything he has to. It's a
means to an end. He'll do anything he has to do, has to
to be friends with Felix, and he doesn't give a shit what that looks
like to other people. No, he doesn't. He's on a mission.
Yeah, I mean, this doesn't eat the Rich movie, Let's be honest.
Yeah mm hmm. He's an idyllic serial killer, is what he is.
He has an ideal in his head and he's going to destroy this family.
He is on an entire mission the whole time. He is said in
his about what he's going to do. He has a whole mission and nothing
is going to deter him from it. Yeah, and I think once you
kind of know the end of the movie, right, that he's been engineering
things since the whole Pike incident. Yeah, when you watch it again,
you can see how he picks Felix early, Like that's a kid that has
everyone around him. Like, clearly he's a lot of people go to Oxford,
right because it's one of the best. And I think him going to
Oxford is a sign of how much he wants and feels like he deserves a
bigger life, because I honestly, I think the worst thing that's ever happened
Oliver is the fact that he is a boring life, you know what I
mean. Like that's why the like the biggest crime to the rich in this
movie is being boring. So you can be poor, but you better be
reality TV poor, Like you better be like the way he sells himself drug
dealing parents, having to make your mom vomit, and so he learns very
early how to give people's attention. And like I said, I think the
worst thing therebn Oliver is that he is a very vanilla, whitebread story.
Yeah, it is just boring it And I think that's also interesting how quickly
he figures out that he needs to be entertaining and that he will do whatever
he has to do to be entertaining. He lies so easily and will grow
from those lies. There's nothing audacious enough for him to say about his background,
especially when you know it's all fake. But yeah, like he comes
to Oxford because he wants a certain version of his life right, and I
think, like I said, it feels like he deserves it. He picks
Felix as the boy. And then as we see now that we know how
the movie, like the flashbacks at the end, that he engineers his way
into Felix, And what I did notice watching at this time, and I've
watched it several times, that he his plan goes into effect once he gets
excluded from that Christmas party. I think that felt like the final proof to
him that he is not included, and that that night, during the Christmas
party, what does he choose to do. He chooses to play pool right
next to the party where you can hear it, he can pretty much see
it, but he's not a part of it, and I think that drives
him berserk, not berserk berserk, but I think it bothers the hell out
of him, right, Yeah, that that's I think that is to him,
Like I said, is like the final nail on the coffin of like
I am not included and all I want is to be in there with them.
And so he starts the bike plane happens like the next week or the
next day. Yeah, yeah, he's he's stocking prey. Mm. Just
straight up, he has a predator stalking prey. Yeah, And it is
terrifying of thought he places into how thoroughly he's going to ingratiate himself into this
group and create opportunities for himself to do whatever the hell he wants. And
he he starts making out with that girl that was excluded also from Felix's group.
Like I think that I was wondering when I watch it with you this
time, Hannah, like is this revenge? Like him almost sleeping with her
and then saying I don't even think philical notice? Is that him getting back
at her for talking shit about the way he dresses and trying to keep him
out like she didn't want him to come to that party thing, So I
think that was him also maybe trying to like eliminate her a little bit,
Like when you look at it more from this lens, like the Macavelian lens,
like you can kind of see more of these moves he's making because I
think on like the first watch of this or like the first assumption I made
when I first saw it because of the discussion around it about like is this
movie about a boy who's obsessed with another boy like and wants to be with
him? So from that lens, it was like, is he trying to
like fuck Felix through this girl? You know what I mean? Yeah,
And I think that's how I thought it was the first time. But then
now this time watching it through the more therapy lens, I was like,
I think he's just using her, like good old fashion using her, yeah,
and then trying to make her feel bad, and that's it. No
pseudo sexual thing under that. No, I think he was weaponizing access to
her to learn what she knew and also striking revenge on both her and Felix.
Everything is he does is calculated. There's nothing that's happening by accident.
Yeah, And he never looks like when he's watching Felix have sex with that
girl outside whilsoking a cigarette like. He never looks like he's worried about getting
caught. He's cool as a cucumber. It feels like we're starting to lead
right into this dark triad. Well, maybe maybe we should take a little
break here and then we'll come back and we'll talk about what the dark triad
is and we'll go from there. So when we talk about the dark triad
personality, it's typically one that can get assigned to the examination of a serial
murderer, which Felix is without question. These are ritualistic, planned, specific
murders that he is undertaking. And so the dark triad is a three component
part of a personality which contains narcissism, machiavellianism, and psychopathy. And when
psychopathy is defined in more of this forensic landscape, it's different than the clinical
one in which we work. And it's important that the we talk about that
because that is a term that is used by the FBI and other places when
they're doing assessments and they have Psychopathy Checklist Revised in which they run through these
tests that these measure a what they identify as a distinct cluster of personality traits
and socially deviant behaviors of an imavid individual, which fall into four factors interpersonal,
affective, lifestyle, and antisocial. These traits include glibness, superficial charm,
a grandiose sense of self worth, pathological lying, and the manipulation of
others. Now doesn't this sound just a little bit like our boy here,
Yeah, mister quick, Yes, definitely, just a little bit. And
then the affective traits. So when we say affect, we're looking at people's
facial and bodily reactions, their tone of voice, their eye contact, et
cetera. We see a lack of remorse and or guilt, a shallow affect,
a lack of empathy, failure to accept responsibility for behavior, kind of
like what we talked about in antisocial personality disorder. Now, yet again,
when we watch Oliver, do we see an ounce of remorse for a goddamn
thing in him? No? No, not one time. No. The
only time he showed fear was when he thought he was going to be caught
when he got taken home. But beyond that, Oliver shows zero concern for
anybody, and his affect is quite generally very flat. Yeah, he shows
very little facial expressions. He doesn't react to stuff. He's just kind of
stonefaced all the time. Yeah, which was I'm sure very deliberate acting.
Right. And when you see people display this dark triad personality type, you're
looking at this manipulative goal directed I'm better than everybody else, and then you
see this psychopathy where they don't feel remorse, empathy, guilt. They just
are enabled to do whatever they want when they want to, and they are
completely detached from the norms of social impact. I can't think of a single
way Oliver would not fit that. Yeah, I am curious what you guys
think about. And I think this could just be the fact that this is
a movie and a trictional character. I think where people might want to push
back on us about what you just said about. Like the remorse part then,
is how distraught he is after Felix dies. The crying and the weeping
and then the sexual behavior with the grave, but the agony he is demonstrating
post Felix's death, I think people do read as remorse, like is he
regretting Felix dying? Like what's he sad about? I think would be a
question I would want to ask us listening to us talk about this, I
don't think he was said about Oliver dying Felix human, right, Felix.
I don't think Oliver was sad about Felix dying at all. I think he
was celebrating a kill. Oh and the only thing perhaps that he was sad
about would be sadness in the way that Joker would be said if he actually
killed Batman. Whatever. I think about the speech Joker gives Batman in Dark
Knight, though, he's telling him like, I'd be bored without you.
I don't know what I would do. You complete me? Yeah, I
think this is I don't think that this may be Oliver's first killed of a
human. I think he's probably killed animals before, but I don't know that
he's killed humans. I feel like he knows a little bit too much about
how to all the different ways that he kills people in the film. That's
true. I think that he knows a little bit too much about it for
to be his first time dabbling with what he's doing. He's very good at
killing people on it looking like an accident. Yeah, So if we know
that to be true, Yeah, then he's figured that out somehow. You
know, this is two thousand and six, so he could just do good
old fashioned research where that's not traceable, right, like not have a paper
trail via the Google. Right, Well, what do you think in Hannah?
So I was so that's really interesting, Ben that you bring that up.
I was thinking how he was he's not remorseful of killing him. I
definitely agree with that. I don't think he's remorseful about that at all.
I think I thought that it's more of that he can never possess Oliver,
right, Gaskin exactly, Like he can never He'll never have a chance to
get at him in any other way. He'll never be able, which is
why it kind of feels like why he's like, I mean, this is
gonna sound really dramatic, but why is kind of like sexually assaulting the dirt,
like because he can't because he never got to. He never got Felix
in the way that he wanted him. Yeah, vulnerable and like drooling,
which is what feels like is what he wanted Felix right as part of his
ritual. Yes, because everybody else he goes through something sexual with before they
die. That's a good point. So yeah, and I did mention to
Hannah when we're watching it this time together that with both Felix and Venetia,
it's like he gives them a chance to fall into a sexual romantic relationship with
them, but when they pull back, when they don't engage with that,
he then decides to kill them. Like with Felix, he goes in for
a kiss in the maze. When Felix pulls away, he's like, well,
then in his mind, I'm thinking him of him going like, well,
then find fuck it, and he lets him drink the champagne rite and
then he pukes so that he doesn't ingest the poison. And then with Venetia,
he also goes in for the kill to try to like manage her by
kissing her because they have a you know, they already have like a sexual
history, and when she rejects him, he's like, well then fine.
So it's almost like he gives them the opportunity to be managed by him in
a relationship, for in a romantic sexual relationship, and then once that is
obviously not gonna work, he gets rid of them. Yeah, so once
they don't fit what he could get from them, he will discard them.
Yep, And It makes me wonder. I know, one thing that I
wondered about the film in general was why did he never try to have sex
with the mom? We don't know that he didn't when he moves in.
Well, and that's what I was later and if so, part of me
is curious if a part of what happened is that he did attempt that.
Mmm. I mean I think and she said no, and then this is
what she got Mmmm that like she could have He was going to be the
air no matter what. Yeah, well he's going to be the air through
Mayorge or like a romantic thing, or he was going to be the air
through death. Yeah. And yeah they went to death route because I don't
Yeah, because he definitely was flirting with her. It's almost like he was
practicing on her, and then he threw it full force at Venetia and then
Farley. Yeah. You can almost like see him gaining practice and like confidence
as the movie goes on with these specific skills and yeah, mining Elsbeth for
information on Venetia, immediately weaponizing that information on Venetia, which is Machia.
Yeah. And I think what I noticed, too, is when he does
it with Venetia, when he's like, you're so beautiful, and he's whispering
behind her ear. He doesn't sound he sounds fake. Yes, like he
sounds like he's putting on a persona. And that felt interesting to notice,
Like I could feel him working her in a way that I hadn't I knew
he was doing, but like I really felt at this time of like he's
being He sounds fake. He sounds weird and different than he sounds in other
settings. He's playing a role. He's very aware of how he's morphing himself
into what will work on her. Yeah, it's predator versus prey behavior of
I'm going to win this interaction mm hmm. And it doesn't matter what gets
me off, because what gets me off is beating you. Yeah. So
I think he's very self satisfied when that scene where he's in the bathtub and
he's washing the blood off after his interaction with her, he seems like a
cat that's got the cream. Yeah, he does, like that's the reward
for him. It is interesting his need to like imbibe fluids. PA also
want to know why we think he like drank the bath water. I don't
know some of the choices in the script about stuff like that feel like more
like movie choices, Yes, And I don't know, like shock value,
like shock value that he's doing these disturbing things. I think the bathwater thing
really goes back to him wanting to possess Felix in some kind of way and
not being able to get close he wants to be. I mean, he
wants to be him, and so he can't get and he can't get as
close as he as he wants, and so this is the only way that
he could do it by doing some like really odd yeah things. But it
also but at the same time, I think you're right. I mean some
of it just feels like shock value, truly, And I guess you could
argue the whole movie. He is also is kind of testing limits. Yeah,
Like what happens if I smash a mirror? What happens if I do
this? What happens if I say the eggs are too running? Yeah,
and make them take him back? You know. I think he does a
lot of like testing his own limits and testing the limits of those around him,
Yeah, and doing so in a slow, deliberate manner. He's testing
the fences like a velociraptor. Yeah, Like with Farley. That's very clear
because he knows he's a contentious relationship with Farley when they're at the karaoke.
When they're in karaoke, yeah, you can see him feeling him out.
Yeah, you could just fuck me instead, and like waiting to see if
Felix. Well, Farley's gonna play and Farley's more savvy than anyone else in
the family. Well, Farley's playing his own game. Yes, yeah,
so's he's eyeing his competitors exactly, exactly. I think he's really noticing and
picking up on all the different little odd things that Oliver does that don't quite
add up to the persona he's trying to portray. Yeah, well, Farley
is not rich blind like the others are. True, he's not privileged blind.
I guess he's not. He's doing his own version of morphing into whatever
the family demands of him from their narcissism to be allowed to stay. And
what was the the friend's name? The the mom's friend, Pamela, Pamela,
so rip Pamela and Farley were foils of each other. Pamela existed in
the story as a warning to what happened to Farley if he fucks up if
it doesn't get a shit together to create tension for us as the audience to
look at that and say, Farley better be on his p's and q's and
know his place, like be the lap dog, be around, but don't
have opinions other than supportive, and you know, playing whatever needs or presented
to you. But you stay in your lane. And then once Oliver starts
doing this testing behavior, that's when Farley starts elevating and starts, you know,
having those conversations with him and trying to destroy him ultimately because he's like,
I see you, I know what you don't think I haven't seen what
you're doing. Don't think I don't know. Yeah, because Farley has to
play a version of that game to get his needs met. Yes, correct,
And so he smells it and he's like this shit stinks, and I
can swell you from a mile away. I would say, yeah, my
only bugaboo with Oliver's presentation, which I think is just the emerald the director
and writer choosing story like moving the story forward versus staying true to like the
character of Oliver is how anxious he is going on the drive to his parents'
house and then how anxious and kind of meek he acts in their house.
I think with how he's shown himself any other part of the movie, I
think he would have done something on the way to the house to prevent them
from getting there, and or he would have spun something. It just feels
weird that he didn't have a contingency plan for that, or that he wasn't
willing to do something. Really, because what I was selling Hannah was is
I think what he would really do on the way to the house is fake
a panic attack and then make Felix pull over, and then once he calmed
down, switched on Felix and be like, I can't believe that you were
gonna take me to this triggering environment and put Felix on his back feet in
that helper role that Felix likes to be, in the savior role, and
make Felix feel bad, and then they would just drive back to Sulburn.
Yeah, Like, I feel like Oliver would have been able to prevent that
situation, and I think, but I think that she needed that to happen
for the plot of the movie. Yeah, it's a mcguffin, no doubt,
And it makes me think about an example of him reacting quickly, I
feel like is when Felix brings up him messing around with Venetia. Yeah,
and he just turns that right around almost immediately, so for him to not
and maybe he was already playing on doing that, like maybe that was always
the goal. But it really feels like if he could do that, why
couldn't he change something before he got to his parents' house? Like that doesn't
quite match up, but I think I think it is because it's just a
movie choice. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's also possible he read the
situation that there was no deterring Felix. I think you're right, Brittany.
I think in reality we would have seen an extraordinary effort, Like I think
it would have faked a car. I think he would have made a car
crash happen before he would have let Felix get to his house, like grab
the wheel maybe, but that would be if you remember, he's on a
goal, though, and he can probably manipulate his way out of his family,
and he can lie and he can say they're they're full of shit,
They're like I lied because whatever, and make up something and he'll probably trust
that before he trustes us the randomness of a car accident. He's too smart
for that, I think faking a panic attack any that are valid theories,
we probably would see that, but I don't think it would reach the point
that he would cause harm to himself if he hasn't completed his mission yet,
because he is. He wants that house, he wants that life, and
he wants none of them in it, because I think the undertone of this
movie is that he knows that that level of wealth is not attainable. No,
that's ancestral wealth, like you have to be born into that class.
I mean, that's a level of like classism that we don't understand in America
because we worship it here well. And also like that there's lords like you
know what I mean, that you can be part of the government like right,
I mean, I know we have a version of that like the bushes
for example, But this idea that you can live in a house that existed
in like the fifteen hundreds, right, and your family's always live there,
and that like a king has slept in one of your bedrooms and that's just
part of it. Yeah, and your family always will live there, and
the money that exists will be protected for you through hundreds of years of knowledge
and effort and education and people you employ to protect it. Hmm, like
Alfred the daddy Butler m they're duncan. Yes, yes, So is there
anything more we want to say about Oliver before we take another break and switch
to the family. No. I think we covered it all right, So
let's take a break here and we'll be right back. Okay, the family,
the prey, that's what we've been discussing. They aren't on paper like
quote unquote good people themselves, right. I think the movie does a good
job of demonstrating how like everyone kind of sucks in different ways, and so
I think it is one of those things where at the end of the movie,
you do there is no clear winner or loser. I mean, I
guess Oliver is the winner, but in the sense of, like, do
we really feel bad for this family, like that mom sucks, the dad
is whatever? Like what is so disconnected? He's so I mean, he
feels like a classic like much older father who's just doing his thing and everyone
else can come along if they want. I mean, when he said about
coming to the birthday party that he thought he'd put on his suit of armor,
and then he did, and then he did fancy dress, fancy dress
like you know, go ahead, bun no. Just I think that was
brilliant writing to illustrate just exactly what kind of character they wanted Richardie granted to
portray. With that he was so aloof and disconnected and disquieted, disconcerned with
anybody else. He's just like, eh, I don't think. I just
wear my armor because it's the thing we do here and I'm pretty cool,
and you just trying to have fun. He's just like doing exactly his thing.
Yeah, he's probably retired and never actually really worked today in his life.
Yeah, exactly, exactly. Yeah. I think, you know,
I was thinking about the Family after watching it today, and I think what
I noticed is we have a kind of specific set up for a dysfunctional family.
Part of that is, besides the mom maybe having some of her own
personality disorder things, I think that we have two parents who don't talk about
anything serious, and who don't talk about anything bad or anything ugly, anything
uncomfortable or anything uncomfortable. And I think when you have a family where nobody
talks about anything real, that what can end up happening is you end up,
can end up with a kid who's a scapegoat, who who embodies all
of the pain that the family is ignoring, which I think is Venetia.
I think we know that she has an eating disorder. We can tell that
in some ways, we can tell that she doesn't seem to quite be herself,
or doesn't seem to be comfortable in her skin. I guess is a
better way to say it. Yeah, well, I mean we're introduced to
her because she's what does her mom say, She's been like pouring herself over
all the furniture or something to try to get Oliver's attention for when he comes
across her. Yes, yes, yeah, her mother is a model.
Yes, her mother is a model exactly, and Venetia is quite obviously not
well, Venisia's just a regular girl. I think what's interesting too, is
she dyes her hair blonde. It's very obvious it's dyed because her roots are
always showing like crazy, which was a thing back then, you know,
like horrible yellow blonde hair, bad extensions was the look, even when you
were rich and famous, like Paris Hiltan, right, Like, it's very
specific to the time period, and I remember watching this time being like I
wonder if she dies her hair blonde to try to feel closer to her mother,
because she's clearly a brunette, yeah, and trying to because when you
have a parent who has more just demonstrates more narcissism, like Elizabeth clearly does.
She makes every conversation about herself. Like there's a funny beat in the
movie when she comes and sits next, like sits down when the kids are
at the lake, the pond or whatever in the yard and she starts talking
about how the song that's playing is about her, and you can see this
look, yeah, you can see this look kind of good exchange between like
Felix and either like Venetia or Oliver of like here she goes again, Like
they've heard the story. Every time the song comes on the radio, they
know their mom is going to talk about how the song was about her,
but she's not cheap enough for the song to actually like she felt offended by
the song because it insinuated that she was like cheap and cultured in a way
that she doesn't want to be associated with. And so when you have a
parent who everything comes back to them, like she has no boundaries. She
wants to be entertained. As soon as Pamela becomes boring, she kicks her
out, but she she literally admits to that. She goes. You think
she'd be interesting with how she looks, and she's not, So she has
to go that. You, as a kid wanting validation for your parent,
like Venesia, you have to try to be like them. They have to
see themselves in you to give you validation. And so Venetia having une disorder,
Venesha dyeing her hair blonde. You know, these are all things that
I think can happen organically when you have a parent who won't give you the
time of day unless you're entertaining them or reminding them of themselves. And yeah,
she does become the scapegoat. The way her mom talks about her is
so disgusting. I think that's a clip that a lot of people remember.
Like if people want to talk about Rosamund Pike's performance in this movie, she
was like the standout actor from it this movie. And when she is talking,
she calls her daughter like sexually impotent. What she say, sexually incontinent?
What a way to call your daughter a slut? So crazy like that,
those two words together and instead of showing any sort of sympathy empathy towards
Venetia, so callous, so rude, and just like you're saying, like
a scapegoat, like writing, venesha off, is this just like slutty fat,
crazy girl with a useless eating disorder? And I don't know how she
got that way. And I think in this kind of dysfunctional family, you
need someone like Venezia to be the scapegoat, because for Elsbeth to really acknowledge
that Vonicia's doing stuff that's harmful, she would also have to acknowledge why is
my daughter doing this? Because she was to be curious about why Venezia's doing
these things, then she'd have to recognize, like, oh, is she
not getting enough attention? Is she upset? Is she having a hard time?
Then that means something about my parenting. And I can't hear that because
that crumbles my ego. So I just have to decide that Venetia is like
a piece of shit, She's just something's wrong with her that has nothing to
do with me. I'm perfect, And so kids like Veneisha gets scape gooded
because it protects the problematic parents ego. Yes, and then we have Felix
who is the peacekeeper, Yeah, which makes a lot of sense with his
helper mentality makes a lot of sense when people who are peacekeepers they also try
to be peacekeeping in other ways because it's a role that they feel really comfortable
in, and that makes a lot of sense. And so I think it
makes a lot of sense because as you notice throughout the film, Oliver is
not the only boy that Felix has ever brought home. Nope, Like he
probably collects and brings them home home because he wants to help them or or
whatever version of helping he thinks he can give them. Well, he's bringing
home people who are from more modest, yes lifestyles and trying to let them
kind of live the saltburn lifestyle for a summer. Yeah, yeah, like
enjoy yourself. That's going to save them or something that's very naive and very
young idea of saving someone. But I think it makes a lot of sense
because we kind of see him be a peacekeeper not only in his family,
but also like he also sucks up all of the positive energy in the family.
He's very much the golden child in a lot of different ways, And
so I think that that's a part of I think that's a part of why
he becomes the peacekeeper in the family, because it certainly cannot be Venetia,
and it's certainly not the dad, because he is so disconnected from the family
that he's not even we don't even know if he knows what fuck day it
is, let alone what's going on with this family. And then we know
that the mom again, you know, has a lot of characteristics of somebody
who's who has narcissistic personality disorder, and in the ways that we see her
see her presented in the film, correct is a means to an end for
her lifestyle. Yeah, she married into his money, and I think they
work because she understands that and has no problem with it, Like she actually
seems very happy married to him, she does, and appeasing him like she's
good. Yeah, she's fine because he stays out of her way exactly.
And I think you're right that Felix. Felix has such a role in the
family because he learned very well that giving Mom whatever it is she wants and
needs and being the way Mom wants makes everything go well. Yep. And
Venetia couldn't do that and resents him because of it, because he's a boy,
and Mom never saw herself in him, but as someone that she can
mold. All he had to do was be molded, whereas Venetia had to
be Mom and but not replicate Mom. Will not be competing with Mom,
not be competing in money, compete with her. But then as she would
enter a sexual age, she would be therefore competing with mom, and Mom
would crush her, which she did. And nothing Venetia could ever do could
be as thin or as powerful, as popular, or as modelrific as Mom.
And so Mom is also eternally disappointed and perfectly happy to keep her right
there under her thumb. Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. And I think
and I think that makes a lot of sense because when people I just feel
like it makes a lot of sense for the mom to only see Veneisha as
competition and is not to see her as a human or a child or someone
that she should love and take care of. Also, I don't we don't
know if the mom even has that capability. I mean, they seem very
loving towards Felix, but who knows how much of that is is real.
I bet it switched when she became older. I think Mom probably always was
really hard on her, but like wanting her to be beautiful, little pageant
child or presentable child, and that she probably was when she was pre sexual,
pre pubescent, but once puberty hit. I suspect that that changed and
she became competition. Yeah, which would make a lot of sense because Oliver's
little friends or not Oliver, Felix's little friends would have been like, so,
uh, suck with Venetia. How's she doing? And what is the
one thing the one that what's the other kid's name, Felix? No,
not the cousin Farley. Farley strongly warned, do not mess around with Venetia.
Mm hmm. That's the fastest way to get thrown out of this house.
But everyone of every person that's come into this house that has fallen into
Venetia's lap or trap or whatever words he used, it was gone. Yeah.
Well Farley really knew what he was doing. He would have encouraged the
Phoenicia and Oliver relationship. He just happens to catch them in the act and
weaponize it immediately. I think he encouraged her as he attacked. He manipulated
in his own way. He did something behind the scenes to think he alludes
to it. It was quick, but he like basically allude because that's that's
when like the big blow up because happens with you the two of them.
He's like he knew that he was fucking around and like manipulating him into stuff
or manipulating the situation. Okay, he's planning seeds. But I do think
you bringing up Felix as the Golden Child. I think one thing I just
want to touch upon with that is I think something that is so surprising about
this movie that feels like it goes against the stereotype is how nice Felix is.
I think in a lot of movies like this, Felix might be well
be mannered and like charming and friendly in his own way. But for Felix
to be so considerate when it comes to Oliver's place in the world, like
before Oliver even like that pretends to not have enough money, Felix is aware
and he calls Farley on on it, right that like that's dude, like
he doesn't have money like we have, Like, don't be a dickhead,
Like he can't afford to buy a round of drinks leave him alone. And
then which I think you brought up or you made mention of Hannah. Is
the scene when he does show up Oliver to Salburn for the first day,
and Felix says, I got you a dinner jacket just so you didn't have
to deal with the pain in the ass of bringing one with you. That
he's very aware of how to say that in a way that doesn't make Oliver
feel bad, Like he's so thoughtful and almost like hypervigilant about making sure that
Oliver specifically doesn't feel othered within their friend group and even in his home.
And I think that I never thought of it in the context of what you
just brought up, which is like him as like a peacekeeper and things like
that, that when you are a peacekeeper with an dysfunctional family, how that
can present is also having like what can appear as like heightened empathy, as
like a hypervigilant response. Yeah, because I think a part of what I'm
kind of postulating right now is that Felix might have had to fawn for his
mother ya time exactly so also when you have somebody who has to be in
fawn a lot, I think and maybe this is just maybe a little bit
this is just like my own experience. But I've been told a lot about
how nice and kind and whatever I am for a really really long time,
like since I was a kid, and with what we know about my background,
right, like that doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense. But I
think if you have to fawn a lot, you still have some awareness of
what people are really feeling and what things can really feel like. And so
I kind of feel like it makes it's like a natural response for him to
for him to be that kind and that nice based on him have to and
also being able to distinguish that his mother is being being aware that she is
mean and that she does do unkind things and that she does do mean things,
and that he definitely has an awareness of that how she makes other people
feel exactly. Oh, yeah, he's hyper empathic. Yeah, and he's
had to be. Yeah. You can't manage other people if you don't give
a shit. Yeah, if you are focused on getting your needs matter going
like this is war, motherfucker, I don't care how you feel like And
I think where Oliver and Felix are foils for each other is my hypothesis is
Oliver would be that to his family whereas Felix was the opposite. And that's
why that Oliver is such an effective predator to Felix is because he knows exactly
how to press that button and throw Felix into the state that he naturally takes
to and was conditioned into, whereas Oliver has learned, I will crush you,
yeah, and I will do so in whatever way I need to.
And that's a really important difference to Reki to highlight. When you look at
two characters that are opposing each other, is the one that's praying on the
other must be intelligent enough to see the part of the prey the prey can't
resist, and I think you're dead on. He's constantly fawning and constantly attending
and doing it like that part of him, that caretaker part he's developed,
has kept him so safe that he defaults to it. I would say that's
what shows up when he drives Oliver to his house, Yeah, to Oliver's
actual house, and how well he's able to adapt to that situation, being
very well mannered, like not wanting them to leave. I think he didn't
want them to leave because he wanted Oliver to be able to face it.
But I think also he was probably paying attention to how he was making his
mom and dad feel m hm. And I think in that moment too,
I think Felix was like, stay and be nice to your parents. They
invited us here, they prepared a whole lunch. We're gonna eat this fucking
lunch because that's what nice people do. And then we're gonna get in this
car. And like, I think what is also so sad about Felix is
he gives him so many opportunities. He really lets Oliver save face. He
couldn't be nicer in the way that he like kinder in the way that he
handles Oliver's deceit. Yeah, and that he's like, I'm still gonna let
you have your party. I'm not gonna embarrass you in front of other people.
Like he's a little shitty at the party itself, but that's because Oliver's
driving him nuts, yeah, and pestering the hell out of him, right,
And I and even at the end, like I felso said, like
even when Felix has drank the champagne which is gonna kill him, and he
hears Oliver throw up, even though he knows Oliver is on another level scary.
He says, are you do you feel better? It's like he can't.
Felix can't help himself, yeah, to fall into that role when he's
around someone at all, but when he's around someone in distress, Like I
think that scene at the end with him and Oliver, I don't think he
has it in him to really fight Oliver. He doesn't like him being like,
can you just leave me alone? I can tell that you're fucked.
Maybe you need to go therapy. He is like really trying, which is
like the sad part and interesting part of this movie is that Felix is like
this and not just like some schwarmy talents of mister Ripley type like Pond that
you're kind of like, ah, this fucking guy. Yeah he can eat
shit, you know, right, And he wasn't and they humanized him and
that's what makes it so effective to show how deep the callous evil runs in
Oliver and how much of a game he is playing. I saw through this
movie right away with that point, Like at this point of the film,
it became clear like once you put those antlers on m like the true beast
inside of him was coming out and he's he's now free to play. So
we'll take another break here and we'll be back with treatment. All right,
So we're all gonna work with Oliver. Right, What are we gonna do
about all over? Guys? I mean, something I guess we can say
is that antisocial is very hard to treat, you know, because people with
antisocial rarely seek out treatment voluntarily. It's usually more of a consequence of prison
time, criminal behavior, or like a means to an end, like couples
therapy stuff like I'll go to couples therapy to save my marriage, but I
don't believe in it. Right, So we're not gonna talk about Oliver.
Sorry, everybody, Oliver is running around naked and his castle. Oliver is
not going to stop doing what he's doing. Yeah, He's going to slowly
pick off all the other rich people. He may or he may retreat into
his own life. People that have become serial killers don't always continue killing.
It's a myth that they do. That. He may have completed his mission,
his ideology and be completely happy living out his life running around naked in
his castle, storing cocaine, playing with puppets. Yep, he may be
good, Yeah, that's true. He may also ingratiate himself and continue his
mission of destroying people and move through destroying planet after planet, system after system
like a locust. Yeah, Like I'm off and I don't know, but
what we see is there is nothing to treat here, No, no,
in this character because he's not going to want it. He will manipulate you,
he will incorporate you into part of the system, and you become his
Harley or you become dead well also too, or a lot of people joint
like they start therapy because they've hit whatever their version of rock bottom is,
like the level of discomfort that they can no longer tolerate. And Oliver,
I don't know if he has a rock bottom. Yeah, Oliver has ascended
in this film. Yeah, and that is the last we see of Oliver.
Yeah, yeah, So who are we going to talk about instead of
Oliver? I can throw it to you, Hanni, because I know you
had some ideas that come off of what we just talked about. Yeah.
So I was thinking about although now I think a little different more differently about
it than I thought originally at the beginning of the episode, but that's pretty
normal. I was thinking about working with Venetia and Elsbeth and I think the
conclusion that I've actually come to we have been discussing the film, is that
I don't know that I would recommend that they do treatment. I think Mom
would have to do a lot of treatment. Otherwise it's the same ideas domestic
violence. I'm supporting an abuser. Well, you'd want to make sure that
she is on board to behave her self and sessions. Mom's not gonna comply
with treatment is not gonna happen. Yeah, I think it'd be pretty I
think it'd be because it's not about her. Well, you would have to
make her recognize her ego Nope, like where she has Nope, Levinisha down.
That's what I mean. Like, like, I don't think I don't
think that it would be I think that you would. It would be much
more valuable to work with Venetia on her own. Yeah, then try and
pull in And my original thought was having trying to pull them in together and
really have some emotional connectivity with each other in one way or another. But
I just don't think that this is I think this is a case where I
say I can't work with you. Yeah, it's more because the work of
keeping the mother in line would take the whole session and would start to be
putting Venetia back in the corner, silent with no voice, the same way
that she's always been. Yeah, it would be really hard to be on
both of their sides, because when you do a family therapy, you have
to be on everyone's side. And when you have like a person in the
therapy space like Elsabeth who would probably say wild stuff, like just really devastating,
she would try to make the jokes kind of like when she was talking
to Oliver, and she would kind of make jokes about her eating, just
like Venetia's sort of like she's what's the point of having one if you're not
gonna be really that thin? And so I could see her falling into that
in the family therapy, and then you would just spend something like you're saying,
so much time trying to like psycho ed, but also that struggle of
like how do I keep rapport with Elsbeth without sacrificing Venetia exactly? And once
you have those convers are having those conversations when you're doing like collaborative therapy,
relational therapy, you usually have to like call it yeah, yeah, and
I think where I'm saying no, nope, nope, and on sighting with
Hannah here is that the version we see of Elsbeth has no interest. Not
that people with narcissistic personality disorder can't evolve and be treated and be part of
a system that can be treatable. This character has shown no effort whatsoever and
no concern, and bringing her and Venetia into a session would be a kin
to sitting there with an abuser and abuse e going you're just gonna cause pain.
How do we compromise around the things that your mama is saying? You
can't exactly exactly, which is often why, which I know I've talked about
in the past, but it's often why. Working with a couple where there's
semestic violence, it's a similar idea. You, I'm there to support both
people, and we have to be equal with both people, and you can't
do that when someone is abusing someone else and the power dynamic is not equal
exactly the session or the relationship. Mama is not gonna surrender her power.
She has no reason to, right, she has no reason to absolutely none.
So yeah, so that's how my treatment would go. It wouldn't it
wouldn't. I don't, it wouldn't. And but I think Venetia is the
one who's the most vulnerable in the story. Yeah, I think I'd agree
with that. Farley's a close second. Yeah, which is who I would
pick if I were to treat anybody, which I think I don't know that
I would sure, but seeing his only license in the United States, and
Farley's the only character who happens to be here a US citizen, a US
citizen who got sent back, and is the only one besides our little murdery
Joker friend here who does play the Joker, or played the Joker before this
movie, and will be the Joker going forward. So I'm not just making
that up. He was in a cut scene from The Batman as the Joker,
the most new Jersey Joker there's ever been. But there he is any
who I think I would want to treat Farley. I think Farley needs a
lot of is going to need a lot of trauma work, because I haven't
said the tea word the whole time. That's true. It's middle the free
space, middle square of oar Bingo Kart right now trauma. Yet I said
Batman a couple of times but not trauma. I don't know who joker A
barely know are right. I mean, I don't know, but I think
I think I would want to treat Farley because Farley's going to have survivor guilt.
Farley's going to be trying to process how close he was to being able
to cast this poison out and keep his life and wealth and connection alive and
not have to live in shame and poorness back in the United States, and
he failed. And I think that's going to need a great deal of work
and going to torture and destroy him because it's not going to be looked at
rationally on its own. The part of him that's going to feel responsible and
having had this in his grasp to cast this poison out that he wasn't able
to to do is either going to be anger or guilt or a rotating,
awful tornado of both and sadness. Of course, it's going to be a
lot of feelings that he's going to need to process and need to do a
lot of work, and it's going to be a very multi layered treatment.
And given his already established propensity for substance abuse, I think my assumption is
going to be he's going to fall quite deep into substance use after losing things,
and he's going to need a lot of help to reregulate the poll to
dissociate away from all this pain and go into his already established habits of using
cocaine and alcohol. And I think working on making sure he has a safe
space to learn that he does have the ability to create new meaning in his
life, even though it's not the high English society version of himself that he
would like to be. This split identity he has of being a dual citizen
American and British and having this dual identity and having been so close, so
close, but yet never really incorporated, so he hasn't had a chance to
actualize form his own identity, create a belief that there is a path to
follow that leads to his success and happiness even though it's not amongst the English
high society ungodly wealthy lords. But that doesn't mean he can't have a powerful,
effective, happy life. And I think that would be the person I'd
want to treat in my goals for that person. Well, yeah, Farla,
I mean we haven't touched upon him as much as everybody else, but
you know, he has a single mom who seems to be maybe blowing through
money and like forcing him to get on his hands and knees and like ask
his part of her family that she's more closely related to to beg for money,
So who knows, Like I could also see a version of Farley,
like when he's back with his mom, where maybe he's her caretaker and maybe
he acts out when he's away and he can kind of be more like the
care free guy who does a lot of blow and fools around. Right,
I'm trying to think of who because I would want to work with Venetia too,
because she just seems like the saddest especially I feel like after losing let's
say she survived Alliver, you know, after losing Felix, it does seem
like Felix was her person in a lot of ways, which is probably his
role too. He was very sweet to her. They have matching tattoos on
their hands of stars, and he was probably her protector when he could be,
and was very yet kind and affectionate and loving with her and protective of
her. That could mite maybe even be part of the why he doesn't like
when his friends full around with her. She says, because he doesn't like
cheers toys. I wonder if he's like, don't mess with her. She's
fragile and she will try and can you just be like a bigger, better
person and like not take advantage of her. You know she's damaged, stop
it, you'll heart her. And he probably views it as like a character
flaw, like a like a irreparable one when one of his quote unquote friends
fools around with her, right, And So I think she would be someone
where i'd want her if I was her therapist, I'd maybe say, like,
let's say, if I was already her therapist and then this Felix things
happens, I would say, hey, is there somewhere you can stay?
Maybe is like an aunt or a grandparent or some I just think like getting
her out of the house, out of that environment would be good for her,
getting away from her mom. Like, she's someone that you would have
to do a lot of, like stabilizing her around her and luckily she does
a lot of resources and so helping her with that. But I don't know,
it's like, I mean, she would be one of the people.
And I think Felix would be like this too, where they would benefit from
a lot of psycho education. Both of them like benefit a lot from like
understanding their role in the family dynamic, Like when I work with people who
don't understand that what their parent was doing, like their mom, was inappropriate,
if i'll use that generous language. Oh and I've definitely had clients like
that when you can finally put like giving an article about dysfunctional families and their
roles and they read those and like, oh shit, Like I think both
of them, let's say, if they both survive to adulthood, I think
they both Felix Unish would probably have relationship problems. You know, for as
sweet as I mean he granted he's like eighteen nineteen in the movie, but
for his sweet and loving he is all like Felix, he runs through girl
which is interesting, like he sleeps with girls and then he kind of just
like discards them, which could be his age and the fact that he's a
rich, hot tall boy, and also you know, maybe that's something else,
like he doesn't want to have to take care of someone else in a
relationship a woman or maybe but I think not mom, Yeah, but I
think they'd be people that they would both need individual therapy to find contentment as
adults, and it might be one of those things where it's hard to do
while their mom is still around. But they would definitely be people that I
don't think I could effectively work with until they were older. Yeah, And
so that's kind of where my head was at with treatment, is like,
if I work with any sure of Felix, they need a lot of psycho
education, a lot of terminology that you've talked about, Hannah, and they
probably wouldn't go to therapy until they're older. And like romantic relationships were kind
of falling flat, or maybe they just keep getting everything they want, right,
like going to Oxford, like probably dating other rich kids, right,
and yet they still feel like something's wrong or something. Yeah, And I
think that's typically when people that have a lot of resources like they do will
go to therapy. Is like, why don't I feel good still? You
know? So that's where I would go with treatment. So let's take one
more break here and then we'll be back with final thoughts. Okay, Ben,
to go first, because I know what you're gonna say, So just
go first. You know what I'm going to say, was my face that
I shared not enough this boy, and by boy, I mean Ben was
like messaging by like six months a year, was messaging Hannah and I while
watching this movie and just like, oh, oh, this movie's like good,
I hate it. So yes, I kind of feel like I have
an idea you're gonna say, well, you might, but I'm gonna say
it anyway, but you've met me, so probably shouldn't surprise you. Is
uh. I hated this movie. When I watched the trailer to this,
I wanted it to be because I think whoever cut the trailer cut it very
similar to the way the trailer for Parasite was cut. Oh okay, Parasite
was one of them. Is one of my favorite movies I've ever seen.
It's one of the best movies I've ever seen. I loved it. I
loved everything about it, and I was like, oh good, maybe somebody's
going to try to make another movie like that. I'm here for that.
Let's watch another one like this. And this was not that, Like they
tried to carry some of that in there, like you won't know what's going
to happen until the end, you won't believe what's going to happen. And
I was like, I called this shit within ten minutes of this movie starting,
Like as soon as he started manipuling, like this motherfucker is lying,
he is so f Nope, this is gonna He's gonna kill everybody. And
he did, and I was I was not surprised or stunned with it at
all. I think it was beautifully shot. I think it was very very
well acted. I think it was very well written. It just my relationship
with the trailer I think killed it for me because I was expecting it to
give me some kind of gotcha and it absolutely didn't. I saw this ship
straight through. And then also I was extraordinarily suspicious of the film. When
you were like, no, we want to watch it with you, I'm
like, yes, well unfair. You know my wife did pull the wife
card and go like no, I want to watch this today. You're like,
all right, she outranks everybody. So it's kind of sorry, that's
just the way it is. But the just the shock moments of this movie
were just unnecessary and like gross, and I was like, what the fuck?
Why? So this movie just didn't do it for me. And then
you two to be like all into it and other people being like it's like
the sexiest movie ever and then me to see this shit and be like,
the fuck is going on? You are the first person I've talked to who
does not love this movie. Nope. I just reconnected with an old friend
and I brought this movie up and she went, that's my favorite movie.
It's my husband's favorite movie. Like you are. Literally you and Carolyn,
your wife, are the only people I've talked to about this movie who didn't
at least enjoy it and or love it. A lot of people in my
network are kind of the same as me and her were, like the fuck
it wasn't clever enough to justify the gross out. I think that was it
could just like the why it was all like very effect do very as a
film. It did exactly what it set out to do, of fuck these
fucking fuckers, Let's eat them, and let's do it in the most vicious
way possible, and we'll destroy them from the inside. It did exactly what
it set out to do, and I will give it credit for that,
but it is just not my jam, Hannah. So I feel like this
movie is entertaining. I feel like I agree with a lot of the things
that Ben said about It's well acted, it's well shot, like, it's
a beautiful film, it's acted very well. And I also don't know if
I would watch it again. I would not, well no, duh,
well, no shit, Ben, But I don't think not because I hate
it or because I hate the characters. Like I think, I just don't
need to see it anymore, which is maybe just a personal thing about me
and less about the film. But it was interesting. I thought that the
stuff that they did was just different than other things. I don't think,
but they didn't definitely didn't catch me up in any way shape. Yeah,
like it felt very I don't disagree with the fact that it felt easy to
spot that Oliver had something going on and was not going to behave the way
that we expected it. But the and the shock moments felt very much like
shock moments. Like I felt very much like the movie knew what it was
and knew what it was doing and did it pretty well. And so I
don't love the movie. I don't hate the movie. I don't know if
I would watch it again. Okay, so I've seen this movie five times.
I saw it in theaters myself because I had heard wild reviews of it,
so I wasn't sure what it would be like. And so when I'm
not sure of a movie, I like to go by myself because I can
get in my head about how other people that I bring to a movie are
experiencing the movie, and it can take me out of it. So I
had a big old smile on my face for most of this movie. I
love what I call Shenanigans, and I feel like this movie is Shenanigans,
and I very much pumped me up with all the shocks, so I was
like, oh my god, what's that restaurant with all the shit on the
walls? If you say Shenanigans one more time and I take my I have
a gun out in pis Olivia. But I I love this movie. I
don't know if I'll watch it a ton more after we've dissected it, because
I think it's fun to watch the first time and it's fun to show to
people because of the shocky stuff in it. I think this movie is can't
be. I think this movie is knowingly audacious. It's like a maximalist movie,
Like it looks like a maximalist aesthetic. The story is maximalist, which
is very much my jam. When I saw Trelsford actually thought it was like
talented mister Ripley, so I knew going in. I was like, this
kid's bullshitting. When he said his dad was dead, I was like lies.
I wasn't sure how much he was lying about his family. I could
definitely say he's laying it on thick. And when he said my dad diad,
I was like bullshit, because because I think this movie doesn't try to
pretend like Oliver isn't bullshitting. Yeah, like the beat of like you're getting
ostracized and then all of a sudden the next day something happens with your family
that gets you in, Like I think. I don't think the writer was
worried about telegraphing that stuff, because that's not the point. I think the
point of the movie was. I thought it was sexy. I thought all
this stuff was sexy. I think Barry Kyogen can really lay it on,
turn it on like riz all over the place, as they say, I
love the look of it, like you guys were saying. So many shots
of it were like I could screenshot and like have this like a wallpaper.
And I like Emerald, for Fanelle's attitude is very much like this too.
She's very like the girls who get it get it, and the girls who
don't don't. And when they asked about like the period scene where he goes
down on the girl in her period, and she was like why, like
the people were asking her it and she was like, I don't know.
It's like she's a part of it was obviously to show his norms right and
how far he'd go. But she's like, also, I thought it was
sexy. And I was like, yeah, see, I feel like I'm
on the same way like this as your girl. And so I like this
movie. I think it's fun. I don't take it very seriously. Honestly,
I think the biggest disadvantage of this movie is that it was lauded as
like Academy Award winning and like people were really like putting it up on this
pedestal like parasite ish, and I was like, just let this movie be
a movie. Let this movie just be a fun, wacky movie with twists
and turns and scandal and sex and like a lifetime movie on steroids with like
a huge budget and cinematography what it is. And that is I love and
I love when a movie is just goes for it. And this movie goes
for it and it isn't concerned about it does how it'll put people off.
It just isn't right and I love that, and it's an original story and
I wish more people would do that. So I will probably watch this movie
again just because I guess really like it. I guess I do, and
wax poetic on about it. Yeah, And so if you guys also like
this movie, you know, write us an email, put in the comments,
tell Ben why he's wrong, you know what I mean. That'll make
my wife happier than us watching the movie, So please do that. So
on that note, I think do we have anything more we want to say
about Sulburn. I think all we have to say is thank you for listening
to us for seven seasons, yes our seventh season, and for supporting us.
And for those those of you that have come up to say hi to
us when you've seen us at events or have been patrons of us that anyway,
those of you who have supported us along the way, we are really
thankful. And this show has taken off in ways that we could never have
imagined. Mm hmm, that's definitely true. So thank you. Yeah,
yes, And as always, if you are looking for us, you can
find us on Instagram, TikTok, and Facebook at Popcorn Psychology. You can
find us on Twitter, slash x at Popcorn Underscore psych You can always email
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and five star reviews. Thank you. If you have a three star review,
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as always, find us if you can reach out to us if you would
like to. As always, if you want to become a Patreon patron and
you want to do fifty dollars or more, you can pick the episode that
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So everybody you know, find your local rich family and I guess annihilate them.
Welcome to the seventh season, y'all,