In the Heart of the Matter: Joey L's Vision for Photography and Philanthropy, E021 (part 2)

Welcome to the mood podcast and the next part of our episode hosting Joey L, the wonderfully inspirational portrait photographer.
In this second half we talk a little more comprehensively about his business philosophies, his processes on location, his equipment, social media and the future of photography, both in its opportunities and risks.
So strap in enjoy.
How do you, how do you, set your, your shoots up?
I mean again with we're to talk specifically about Ethiopian, the tent that I've seen a lot of what you've been posting about that and heard a lot about you talking about it and it on the outside it seems quite a simple function.
Yeah, in terms of, you know, makeshift studio in the middle of wherever, yeah, naturally.
What is talk?
To talk to me and that the viewers about kind of how you go from Joey sat on the sofa to getting One of your most revered shots right and you know, in the book or elsewhere what is?
What is that process?
Certainly on set or on location, what happens, how do you set it up, and then what's the process of, of the shoot itself.
Is there a specific, a Specifical specific?
Is there a specific example?
No, is there a specific like photo, like from the Ethiopian book, or you mean commercial work or anything.
Anything, I mean your most recent work is probably is a little bit probably relevant because it's kind of your, your, your, most recent the processes, I guess yeah um, maybe let's talk about the.
I've got an example actually, okay, we before we talk in your, but one of my most one of my favorite images.
Well, actually the other one is the NFTs.
I got from you an absolutely incredible panoramic image back in 2008 I think one of your first shots, but the other one I picked out from the book was Of a of a shepherd camel herder.
Right he was dragging a trail of camels and I think when you posted it on social media for a member, rightly you attached a BT, a BTS shot with it.
And what I love about your work is it looks so simple in terms of one light set up.
You know, natural light, balancing the two the gentleman walking that that's it, and you were kind of Kind of yeah, yeah and and and then I'm walking with yeah.
Yeah, there's two of those just like to carry you place to our far place, but it's both the same kind of style, Like for that place.
Um, I believe you're talking.
Is it the salt mining photo?
No, are they carrying bricks of salt?
Oh, yes, I want to say yes, okay, one guy in the front, pull it, yeah, so like that guy I've already been with all day long.
He's okay, he's I, I.
So we'll put up on screen and yeah, if it's, I hope it's what I'm thinking of, but it's okay.
Um, there's a wide shot and then there is a close-up shot of the camel caravans that mine salt in the Afar region.
It's still a commodity in Ethiopia that they can sell across the whole country and I love it because it like reminds me of the old days when there are different kind of currencies.
You know you could deal in salt and you can deal in gold, you can deal in the toddler.
Anyway, at that point I'd already set up my tent there.
I think it was like a day or two before.
I Remember when I took that portrait I was like really sick from heat, heat, exhaustion.
I didn't drink enough water.
It's the hottest place on earth in the Afar zone.
So I had like been there a few days before I like got sick and came back.
I was kind of like there over the course, I think maybe three or four days or so.
I forget the distance of those two photos.
You can check the exit data and see, but I already like been with them.
They're mining salt and they're gonna go on the road.
Okay, so All the aerial stuff is just them mining salt.
In the way that it looks, it's quite easy to get something striking there, because it's like a beautiful salt, flat lake.
Everything looks good.
No, don't matter what.
But that portrait is lit with a flash, mm-hmm, when he's walking with his camel.
So he already knows what.
I'm there and I'm not trying to create something that's like a fake walking shot or something where it's like you don't feel my presence as a photographer.
In fact, I want to elevate this to look more like a painting Using a flash.
So I will explain to him what I'm gonna do is like like, let's walk together, don't mind me, it's gonna be weird.
We'll like try to keep up with you and I will literally walk beside him.
And I had my friend Nebu, with the flash just Literally photographing him on a very low power as he walks, and then we got to the end of the salt lake, okay, said goodbye, and then One day later we found him on the road as we were going by and we saw how far he had made it, because he was taking the same road that we were.
Wow.
And I was able to show him even like something mocked up, that I had done like a double page spread of the wide shot and that.
So that's kind of how how I see it is.
You know, obviously for a portrait there's a level of control and you're going in there and, yeah, you are setting stuff up to a degree because this is a portrait, but at the same time, like those are his camels, that's the stuff that he's mined, that is his place, that is where he's walking.
So my work is kind of the balance of those things like the real, but also like me making a portrait in that environment.
Does that make sense?
Absolutely, yeah, so there'll be a balance.
Another example that is the is the crocodile hunter shot.
So there's the vice documentary that follows us doing that, me going on the hunt with them nights first in a row.
But the photo that's in the book is not exactly an action shot because that takes place at night.
Instead, what they did was when they hunted this thing, they kept it in the hunting camp and slept beside it, actually at night, and then they moved it to the village in the morning to like cut up and distribute to all the families.
So the portrait that I took of the crocodile hunter is the guy that I was with who spotted it, but it is during when they're moving it from this place to that place portrait in the middle of it, right.
So he's holding it and it's an environmental portrait, but like that's not a hunting photo.
Yeah right, that's a portrait.
Yeah, but that's what I like is that the balance between kind of pure Documentary style photo in the moment in the action, with the more of a fine art kind of approach to To an image and I'm just remembering back like I have I.
I'll hit the.
The hunter's name is Morious.
I also have photos of him holding his fish and it's like the same kind of thing.
He's by his fishing nets.
He's in the low water From maybe a year before.
Okay, right when I, when we're doing something else, so it's like when it, when we finally got that thing.
He's already used to what I'm doing, so he's like oh, it's like that thing that I did before.
So that's not in the book, that's not in the photo.
That's too much the same but, that's just like a level of involvement and Doing things, the same amount of time where I think you really can get a very authentic and, you know, kind of trusting Sense with people from just being there multiple times across a long period of time.
Yeah, you don't have to.
It doesn't have to be an every single portrait, but when it comes to something very, very complicated or Literally, you're risking your life together.
Right, you can make things like that.
That, I think, are Some of the heavy hitting images in the book that really make people stop and go wow, it's not.
I got lucky that day, of course.
We got lucky because they managed to like hunt this thing when I was there.
Yeah, what was it?
Four nights in a row you didn't get anything.
What was it?
Yeah, there's that, but also there's, like the years before.
Like being there and trying.
So, yeah, there's luck to it.
But there's also just like I know, if we do get this thing, I know how we can make this not just what the vice filmmakers were filming when we were there.
What's the?
What's the special Fine art portrait that we're gonna take away at the end of this.
What is the whole point of being here?
It's that, yeah, so that's what I tried to achieve with that portrait, but many things inside the book.
There's a level of construction, there's there's a level of setting up, but they don't feel that way because they're the real people doing their real thing in the environment.
So there's truth to it as well.
It's like a painting.
Yeah, I, I get that.
I used to get it more than I do.
Now that people my my, the audience that I do have kind of understand my style as well and understand that nearly every shot is set up.
It's set up, however, whatever level of setting up you can call it, but every photo is usually that person within their own environment or doing something that they normally do.
It's just we're kind of interrupting that a little bit.
They're aware of the camera right, and people who pretend that people are not aware of cameras are also lying setting stuff up pretending not to be there when clearly if you have a huge camera, someone's gonna notice you and act different.
So even I would argue kind of like purist point and shoot stuff where someone pretends to not be there, it's almost certainly the case that the subject like acknowledges that someone's there.
So it's the same thing in my view.
Yeah, I totally agree.
And when those purists also can I get this as well like we'll critique editing or overhanded editing or what they would conceive as too much editing or any editing at all is bad.
It's like well, you're editing as soon as you pick up a camera.
Yeah, exactly you know, it's like you're not a true documentary photographer, whatever you want to call yourself Like.
You're choosing what you put in that camera, exactly, yeah, so that kind of doesn't matter I also don't recall when I was born like agreeing to those rules to live in this world.
Yeah it's just right up.
Did I sign something?
Yeah, did I sign something that like made me part of this Cause?
Like I don't know if I like that, I don't think I want to be there.
I don't want to live in that world.
But we all have a level of judgment.
I mean you talked about, you mentioned the words you know meaningful photography and good.
I don't think.
That's just what I like.
Other people like something else, and that's good.
Yeah, we shouldn't all like the same things, yeah, but there is some shit out there.
Some people like shit.
Some people think I'm shit, that's fine.
Well, I was gonna actually give you my next question.
Do you get Even I think I'm shit most of the time Do you get any critique, do you?
I think I'm shit most of the time.
Wow, we all do Right.
Not that we all think you're shit, just we all think Of course I get critiqued, like every artist should is normal.
Yeah, but I mean by I mean like not constructive critique, not like an artist critiquing other artists, I mean I get a surprising low amount of hate for the things that I say I should receive more, but I don't, I don't know.
I think most of it is just honestly.
It's usually people like.
One of the things that always gets thrown at me not always, but maybe once a while is oh, like when you're selling this book.
Does it benefit the people right?
Do you pay them?
Okay.
And I have a copy of pasted answer, because I get the same question and that's okay.
You shouldn't be mad at that person.
That's like a really good question, right?
And I always have to copy paste the same answer, which is yes.
Number one I pay people.
Number two the charities that I've worked for or that I've volunteered my time for have literally generated millions of dollars for these communities indirectly and directly.
So, like one of the things I did for WaterAid for Tumbo's Wound, it was a project called Untapped and it was.
It raised millions of British pounds and then it was even matched by the British government to become doubled, and that's something that went directly to the place that I was photographing.
So, yeah, of course there was a campaign and it wasn't just my photos, but I was directly attached to that as the only visual, the only photographer.
In another case, oxfam used the images that I made of the oil fires in Iraq to put pressure on the coalition to extinguish them.
Now, was that my work?
No, it was like hundreds of journalists doing different work, writing articles, a lot of researchers.
I had like a small part in that, but at least I was part of it.
So, no, when I sell a book there's not a royalty, that's like instantly distributed on someone's mobile phone.
That would be great if that technology existed.
I'm sure it's coming, but what I've tried to do with my work is use it for good in the world and not supporting just dumb charities that don't do anything, just to say I gave to this, but actually work with the actual charities that I support myself on the ground.
So even my time has a value.
The time that I've spent shooting for charities for nothing should be enough, but it's not.
Even after that I still donate and give.
So yeah, maybe it's not like exactly to that specific subject, but I tried to do it in a very meaningful way.
So when I do receive that comment, it never bothers me because I know what I've done and what I haven't done.
But sometimes on social media they can post that and other people will pile on thinking, oh, like, oh, he's something's here and it'll track the wolves will come out.
Especially on Twitter.
The algorithm.
the algorithm loves that it's built for hate.
So what I have to do is just put my ego aside and just think about, like what have I actually done with this work?
Am I proud of it?
If I don't defend it here, then nobody else will.
In fact, it'll become worse.
So I do have everything out in the open.
Even there's a page on my website that explains all of this.
But most people like you asked me, do I get hate online?
It's mostly from people who don't do the due diligence of even just looking at my website.
So if they don't have the five minutes it takes to find the charity tab of my website and what I've done and show that, and they're just commenting, well then, should I really get upset at reading that?
No, if they really wanted to attack me, there's worse things that they could do.
Yeah.
Do you feel like your photographs themselves can not be charitable but serve a purpose to certainly the people that you photograph, in terms of immortalizing them in a frame forever?
Do you feel like that's a responsibility that you carry?
Yeah Well, that's what I hope all of this is and that's the greater point of this where I believe in that so much that I don't think artwork should be linked with charity.
I actually think it devalues the artwork.
I don't think every time someone does something there has to be any charitable component.
I don't even believe in that.
What I do is my own personal choice as a human to give or not to give right.
Just because someone's doing artwork doesn't mean it has to be linked to this corny thing that we can't even prove right.
I don't like that.
I don't like having to even I don't like seeing other artists even have to placate to that what they do should be their own choice, because the artwork should be enough itself right.
What someone's doing, what they're putting into the world like when I see someone making work, especially an artist, I know they're already suffering through life to make that right Like the fact that they're out there doing that means they don't have a normal job and the people commenting saying those things they do have a normal job that they can do and then they like go and patrols online, but it's like they didn't sacrifice anything to do that.
So most people who behave like that online, have never built anything anyway, and the first person who will defend me are the people in my book that will would say to them, like are you kidding?
I wanna be part of this thing.
Like you wanna stop that?
Like, just go ask them is this project meaningful to the person or not?
They will say it's meaningful.
So I don't know how we got down this dangerous podcast, bro, but it's good.
But I think that people should.
If they put years into something, they should believe in it.
Right, like enough to just be like yes, this is literally what I do.
There is a charitable component to my work, but sometimes I wish there wasn't, just so I could be like I believe in this enough that, even on its own, the book is what it is right.
But at the same time, I've like seen very good work on the ground charity, water, water, aid, what they actually do.
I've like been there myself and I've seen it and it is good.
So I wanna help them.
And I wanna help them with what I'm most best at.
What I can give the most with is dollars, but also my own time as a photographer, so I'd like to give both.
Also, charity doesn't have to be for those in need, essentially, if that makes sense, because creating the art that you do gives in an indirect and intangible way of inspiring millions of people, giving people joy and happiness just through it should be enough.
Yeah, exactly, it should be enough that sometimes some people it's not?
Do you feel like that's a way in your shoulders?
No, no, I don't, because I believe in what I do.
And I know what I do is good.
So I don't see it as the way.
I do see it as annoying and I do see it as like kind of funny.
But usually people you can explain to them and like people are good honestly.
Generally people are really good and if you just take the time to explain most of them will say oh damn, you're right.
Yeah, it's just a bit of education.
I guess it's a bit of education and that's understandable.
You have to do that also as a photographer, so like a weird thing that we do.
It's very hard to understand.
On the flip side.
Why do you think people your fans are your fans?
Why do you think your followers are your followers?
What is it about Joey L photography that you think people like?
I think, like I've been doing it for a very long time, so clearly I care and I put everything behind it and I'm I don't know.
I think when you've done something for a very long time, it can speak to people by nature of you still being around doing this thing.
Of course I know photographers like my work because of the technical aspects and they can see how hard something is to pull off.
But the other people who follow me that don't really know about photography.
What I hope about why they like my work is this touching at something more profound inside, which is the, I guess, the curation of these things or the thought behind why to even photograph this kind of thing in the first place.
That even if someone's not visually trained, it could be subconscious.
That's what I really hope, but I don't know.
You should ask them.
Interesting reaction to that question.
Why, I don't know?
Because I think it's difficult for any artist or photographer some maybe not, but for a lot of people it's difficult to talk about themselves in a kind of populist way, Right.
I chose to be behind the camera.
What am?
I doing now.
Why do you want to podcast?
Yeah?
Just a little self-grandizing here.
I think, that I tried to be on the other side of this.
What have I done?
I think it was a perfect answer.
I mean, I think people certainly.
I mean I'm a little bit different because I'm a photographer as well, but I think, you know, when I first noticed you, I wasn't really I was kind of interested in photography and wanting to learn, but your technical skills are obviously, you know, second to none.
But you're, I think, with everyone I tell this to people all the time because I believe it and hopefully I exude it as well Having a passion about something.
It comes through in any work that you might choose to do.
Oh, that's a good point.
And having like and you mentioned it like because you believe in it, because you have passion for it, and that will always come through, and it comes through in your work.
You know you look at Joey L's images.
He's doing this for a higher kind of reason, right?
It's not to get likes, to get followers, to get approval to, not even so much just to make yourself feel good.
Obviously, that's part, a big part of it, but there is something greater to your images than just that.
That comes through definitely.
There's other kinds of work that you could do which would get, especially in this modern social media landscape, way more followers and way more likes than what I do I'm doing, like the thing where I'm losing followers, right, or just keeping the diehards there, let's say so.
I totally agree.
Like you can tell when someone's passionate or fired up about something, that's what I really like to transmit is just things that I, as I told you, when I'm choosing my photo projects, what to do, it has to be something that I get giddy about and excited about and like I love that stuff, like I love what I shoot, I'm like obsessed with it.
It's all I talk about, it's all I annoy people with.
So if people can resonate with that, then what they're resonating is the things that I find important, that I wanted to share as well.
So, yeah, of course that's important.
I do obviously, like you know, I am in documentaries I do put myself in my face out there and I do talk about my work to promote it, but at the end of the day, I do really want people to appreciate just the final output, which is the photographs.
But I will endlessly promote it as well to make sure that that happens.
I will try my best to just also not have it shot and just live there and nothing happens with it.
That's another thing is like you can do all these things and no one can see it.
That's not the point either.
I made this to share you know, when you put your photographs out there, do you want people to be intrigued and make their own interpretations from the image or images, or do you always want to have a narrative, a written narrative, a written concept associated with that?
No, I think, like my work is not very conceptual, so there's not much to put there like interpretation wise.
So I think, no, if I was doing more art, photography, highly conceptual maybe, but even then I don't know.
Where does culture come into it?
I feel like culture today is kind of diminishing as well, or certain types, certain subcultures around the world that getting lost.
No, you're just getting older and becoming an old man.
Maybe Crazy TikTok kids don't have any culture.
That is a culture, that's a total culture.
Do you feel like that will always be the backbone of your projects as well?
Specific cultures that you want to kind of transmit into the future?
No, I don't think so.
Okay, I think it's a great portion of what I've done so far and like, especially with the love of anthropology.
So the series in Kurdistan is about culture.
It's not so much about conflict photography, it's all that stuff is there and there's yes, there's a war, and that's very real, but it is about a cultural renaissance inside of a war zone.
That's what the subject matter is.
So, yeah, it has to do with culture.
But I don't think, like every photo project I have to do, like, for example, my work, I don't want it to be like where will he go next?
What crazy?
Like I don't, I'm not interested in that.
I want to do something that's like a very long-term, meaningful project.
So if it relates to Halloween or something, of course that's related with culture as well, maybe like our own Western culture, so yeah, that's in photography, but that's going to be baked in if you're just photographing people, right?
So yeah, I don't think that my work like has to be about, you know, a specific rural community or anything like that.
I don't want it to be framed like that.
I never want to be like a travel photographer.
If that makes sense, I feel like the photography community.
It needs to be shocked.
It's getting so lethargic and just Minultinous.
It's just repeating itself you know, like, especially like I don't know, it's just it's dead.
I really feel that way.
I mean, we're not going to do it with a podcast, but you know what I'm saying?
It's just people need to.
I don't know.
No, it's nice that you say that, because the whole reason I started this podcast was to, I don't know learn from myself, obviously, and meet people, which is fantastic, but ignite something in this industry.
That was that I didn't quite haven't grasped yet.
There is something that is Like what are we doing?
I mean A, it's so just saturated with, I mean it's a lot of it is just utter shit.
And yeah, I know what you mean.
Like some people like shit and it's in the eye of the beholder and no, but some of it is just shit and a lot of people get reinforced.
You know positive vibes from shit and it really pisses me off.
But that generally is life, I think, in any industry.
So you know I have to, I have to consciously try and separate myself from from from that and not being too pretentious about it and not being too snobby about it.
But I think that's where the best stuff rises to the top when you are, you are a little bit discerning and you've realized that this industry needs needs a complete shakeup.
Yeah, or a spark.
I need to do it.
I mean, I need to apply it to myself as well.
I need to follow this advice as well, like we all do.
It's just yeah, I really do feel like we're at a great turning point in most of the world the art market as well but there's a great, there's a great shift going on.
In that great shift, a lot of things are being destroyed, but it's there's.
That's always a time of great opportunity as well.
So I I'm here for it.
I like it.
I think there's going to be way more opportunity than people think yeah Well there is yeah.
There absolutely is.
Yeah.
Let's you know if I put it.
I put something out there on on Insta so a few people wanted to ask you some questions, so I'm going to, I'm going to roll with some of these, so a couple of them are technical, a couple of them not so much.
Um it actually this is quite a question, a question I get as well.
Like a lot of your photos, the subjects aren't smiling Right.
Is that a deliberate and conscious kind of decision or is that just happen stance, that it's just a natural pose?
No, I'm a very goofy person.
In real life Usually people are smiling.
I do like to think of it as kind of like classic and timeless work and I feel like there's a good place for a nice smiling photo.
There's quite a few in the Ethiopia book, I must say some of the dance scenes and things like that, but portraits and stuff, uh no, because then it for me it goes into the realm of a different kind of portrait which is fake and performative for the camera.
So if it's a scene where it's like happening, as I said, there's like a great dance in Kafa with my wife's aunt is smiling- in the book.
It's another thing.
From the South there's laughing.
I think there's a lot, but um, I guess that person's looking at my old work before I was happy.
What would you say is the most important thing when taking taking portrait?
no-transcript.
The most important thing is to really care and to really be involved at a deep level and to really help the person trust you and explain to them what your intentions are, even if that makes your job more difficult as a photographer.
It's going to make things more time consuming, more difficult, but it is going to end up being a way better portrait, in my view.
Why?
Because we as humans, you know when we look at, we have very good bullshit detectors as people, right, because we look at people's faces all day long, even if we can even notice AI meaning portrait photographers that other people can't, because there's like an uncanny valley.
So, like following that logic, if something feels very genuine and it's very real, it's like oftentimes, just because it is, it was like that before the photo was taken and it was like that mood or that feeling.
So when you're a photographer, I think you have to be very cognizant of that.
Anything is going to bleed through the photos, especially if you're doing photography with non-actors, with natural light and these kind of environments.
There's just no way to fake it.
It's just like people's bullshit protect bullshit meter goes crazy.
So how do you make an honest portrait?
It just starts from the minute that you begin, which is before photography happens.
Yeah.
For sure.
I mean it does in most social interactions also.
Photography is this kind of a social interaction?
Yeah, collaboration almost well hopefully right, yeah, and that first impression and everything.
Why medium format?
And I don't want to talk too much about equipment because I just don't like it, but you know.
I think you Medium format is juicy.
It's the juiciest format there is Yep.
Well, I'm in that corner as well, but it's plain white Resolution resolution is great, but it's very tonally vast.
The tonal range is very thick and juicy and I just think, as a portrait photographer, any technical advantage can help right.
So it's like if you, as a photographer, you really are slowing down and you're not doing kind of spray and pray photography, well then there are certain technical things that are going to help you tell that story and for me, for my style, one of them is that beautiful, vast tonal range that medium format has.
Of course it slows down things to make the shooting process more introspective.
It's not like, oh, we got it right.
It's like a very slow burn to everything and even when you come away from a shoot you might have one picture that is working right instead of having 20,000 things.
So it's challenging, but it does slow down things.
And then, of course, the final result is beautiful to print.
I mean, I'm someone who really loves paper and making prints and having like a 16-bit file to work with is just like a dream for someone like me making big prints.
So I like that final output aspect of it too, but it's not a bad question.
I mean, technical things are important in photography.
It's like an art, but there's also a large technical component to it.
Absolutely yeah, lens choice, everything.
Well, I have the H6D Hasselblad and I've been using that now for five or six years and I still use it on projects, mainly because it's not so much the final result.
I mean, the final result is great in terms of the image quality, but I feel like it makes me a better portrait photographer because it's more of a mindful approach.
It's more of a conscious, deliberate approach to your interaction, your scene, your thinking about it, but you're just taking more time and you're dealing with a.
If medium format cameras were as user-friendly and as technologically advanced as the full frame stuff out there, I don't think I'd be that bothered about it, given the prices that they are.
But the fact that it makes me just more considered, I think it pays dividends.
Yeah, I agree completely.
What other equipment do you have in your bag?
What do you go on location with?
I have the hold fast straps because the phase one will destroy my wrist and give me a carpal tunnel one day.
Heavy.
So I do protect myself as well.
Distribute the weight across my shoulders.
I think that's important.
Lenses.
I would say 90% of the book is shot on a 55 millimeter lens and an 80 millimeter lens.
That's it.
Yeah, and one light.
And I have a 35 millimeter lens as well.
That's maybe I forget what percent I was at, but whatever's left is 35 millimeter wide angle 35 mil on the IQ4?.
Yeah, it's like it makes like a 28 or something.
Yeah, so it's three lenses.
OK.
A light.
yeah, I think I've asked some of these already.
What are your?
biggest criticisms.
How do you pitch for jobs?
Usually when people, when someone, an entity comes for me for a job, it's a unique situation because they want me to emulate some characteristic from my fine artwork for that brand.
So I don't pitch out of nowhere like I don't know what's it called, like cold pitch.
Yeah, I just if someone comes to me and they have an interesting idea that's very creative and they like what I already do, I'll put together some references for them, because sometimes I have things that are closer that might not necessarily be online, or I'll put together like an edit of images that relates to the mission we're trying to achieve, maybe some explanation, but most of the time, honestly, I'm lucky because I get hired to do what I do in my own personal work.
They just want to remove some of the like.
They come to me wanting to remove some of the commercial polish that's on things but still not go totally rogue, raw style journalism photography.
They want me to like play that dance.
That's in between, and sometimes when an advertising agency comes to me, they might have already convinced their client what the brand is like.
We need to get away from this kind of imagery like check out this photographer, joey here's his books Like this is the kind of person that we want to hire.
Of course, I have experience on set and dealing with the stress that comes with a major production, but when it comes to image making, that part should be the same where, when you look through my work, I really want just the photo to speak on its own, and they would like that too, obviously.
So most of the times I don't have to like cold pitch for things.
It's just there's a need for what I do, and I have to explain how we can achieve that with production, because some of the things that might take months to get on my own, well, we have to figure out how to do it in a day of production where you have all the equipment, you have people helping you, you have assistance, you have many moving pieces, it's like you have all those things but you can't let it spoil the final photo with too many things.
So the artistry should be the same, but certainly, how do you use a production backbone to increase the amount of images that you make over a period of time?
Yeah, interesting.
I mean, do you do much studio work?
Not, really, not so much anymore.
You used to right.
Most of my stuff is on location.
Yeah, some studio work, I enjoy it, but my favorite kind of thing is going on location.
And there is still plenty of demand for that, or are you already seeing?
There's more demand for going.
For me personally, like more demand going somewhere and photographing a thing that's my niche like being doing on location assignments.
Yeah, but is there demand from clients that want that?
Yeah, ok, yeah, yeah, as you were saying.
Yes, there'll be less of it in the future, but the more things become fake with AI and stuff, there'll be more demand for this weird thing Like who would have thought actually going somewhere and photographing someone real, even it's funny, don't you find even the language weird when you say real people, because you assume everything else is fake.
That's strange.
That is strange.
Yeah, real people, and it's coming soon.
It's like fast yeah, yeah, good question.
Well, yeah, how will AI change the industry?
I think we've already covered that.
I love.
AI, by the way, like I think it's cool.
I'm not against it.
I think we should accelerate it.
It's not photography.
I think the companies that are going to Congress on C-SPAN and saying like please regulate us, they just want to keep the advantage that they have so that there are harsh regulations to slow down competitors.
I don't really think there's like a real risk of like an AI robot killing us all or something like that.
I think that's you know what is it?
Open AI has a competitive advantage.
All the tech bros do that.
Like.
When they have that, they're like please regulate everyone who can't afford to get to where we are now.
That's they're trying to scare people on purpose.
Yeah, I mean it's great that it's open and it has been released.
I mean it's great and I mean I don't think it's that open, but it's open.
Ai is more closed AI, but anyone can use these tools.
Yes, that's true, but what I mean is how they structure.
Their company is a walled garden.
Right, ok.
But they have the competitive advantage now, so they'll beg.
Please don't let other, the other companies catch up to us.
So impose harsh rules and regulations that we can afford as a giant company and crush all the little people coming.
Yeah, of course that's their tactic, in my view.
Well, and the technology that creates these LLMs and this AI is monopolized.
It's weird, Like there is.
Nvidia is the company that makes chips for this software.
It's like one company based in Taiwan.
Right, Right, that's it.
And then you know you have.
I can't recall the names of the companies, but essentially everything behind AI is made by three companies, which is just weird to think about.
So there is a control factor there.
I mean, it's always about power, money anyway, but yeah, if they were to regulate things, then they could crush anyone little.
But right now, what's cool about this technology is it does give someone small the power of like 200 people.
So new artists can make something that I can't even think of right now.
Like we're thinking in terms of photos or graphics, or something like well, what would an artist do with a super human power?
We're, like we're going to learn what that is.
Is it a photo, where it, like you know, changes every time I look at it?
Is it a movie that adapts to the viewer, so we could all see the same movie but we come out with a different.
Choose your own adventure experience.
I mean, right now there's the technology to watch a movie in your own native language right, it can bend the actor's lips and change the voice to be a language that you're more comfortable with, right, but you could have a single movie, but it could have different outputs, right, depending on who's watching it.
We might not even be living in the same world.
Well, I think that world is just going to become more volatile.
I think that's what people are scared of, because on one side you have AI, you know, let's say, an AI capable of thinking faster and processing 100,000 times quicker than any human you know could be the cure for cancer right in so many years.
But, conversely, it could be put it in the wrong hands and we've got nuclear war on our hands.
So it's like I mean we already have that, but yes, it'll be like nuclear war, with like way better visuals, right like they'll use mid-journey to put out the threatening tweets that world leaders already do, just like the visual of the rocket that the North Koreans will just be like really high fidelity now.
And really believable Right Basically well fucked?
I don't think so.
What is?
I think I'm a cynic, it's okay.
What is, do you think, is the most important question we should be asking ourselves these days as photographers, because we talk about how photography industry needs a bit of a kick up the backside.
How do we go about kind of addressing that?
Why does this matter?
Why should someone care about this?
Because if you force people to try to give a shit about something, usually they don't.
But if something is so compelling and so interesting, people will care by themselves when you release.
I think we were talking about this before, when we first met.
But when you release a great project, people will gravitate toward it and you don't have to beg them to do that because it's interesting.
Because you already asked that question why does this matter?
If we're going to do all this thing, if we're going to dedicate our time to something, I think, yes, I've been joking a lot today, I'm in a joking mood, but, honestly speaking, what we do should actually matter.
So I think, to answer the question simply, why does this matter?
Why should people care about this?
Why?
Yeah, why.
I mean, there's such a great question to ask anything, right?
Why do you get up in the morning?
Why do you go?
Why?
And there's an incessant question to everything.
There's also who, there's also what, there's also where.
Sorry, but yes, why.
I've totally lost my train of thought that's my fault?
One of the questions that keeps coming back.
Whichever podcast I do, whoever I speak to and a lot of people it's a different answer every time.
But how do you define success with what you do and do you define it?
Is that important?
Yeah, I think success for an artist right now is just are they able to do this thing, that's it.
It's a really low bar right now because it's so hard.
What's your definition?
The same.
Oh, like within myself.
No, because I've always done this and I don't have anything else.
So if I don't have this, I don't know what I'm going to do which is good, I think, because it'll just light a fire under my ass to keep going.
I think what's successful?
I mean, we're making visuals to put out into the world, so I think they should really move people right, they should inspire people.
My book I really wanted it to reframe the way that people view this particular region of the world.
I really wanted to do that.
That's something that really matters to me, for me, my family, for everything that I've ever cared about.
I really want someone to think, oh wow, I didn't know it was like this, right.
So for me, that success is the people who come up to me and say before I saw this, I thought A, but now that I've seen this, I think B.
So changing perceptions yeah, you can really do that as a photographer.
That's what we've always done.
We don't have to cure cancer or build a rocket ship to go to the moon with our job, right?
We shouldn't be doing that.
What we do is something different.
Yep, I think at least that Like right.
And I think well, I think you've explained how you do that over the last however long we've been talking, but in terms of your process and the greater narrative of a series or a book, is a book something you think you'll always do with your photography, or do you think that was a?
I'm very proud of it.
I think it's a marker of success.
I'm not going to lie and be falsely humble.
I really am happy that that's being spread all over the world.
Sold well, sold very well.
It's being spread all over the world so that if a certain region of the planet destructs, my book will still be in some other place.
It's like a decentralized node but, honestly speaking, yeah, I think it's a measure of success.
Everybody wants to spread their work around and have it in the care of other people to protect it, so in that sense it does become somewhat immortalized.
A book is helpful to do that.
If I had to hoard everything I ever did on a hard drive, well, it takes one generation and then all of that's going to be gone.
So I think that is a good measure of success.
I don't think every project has to be a book.
It's just one measure of doing something that matters to photographers, because there's still a yearning for a physical object.
Yeah, so the important thing is then to leave a legacy.
No, I think it's just to be a very good person and navigate through life, just not being a piece of shit.
Basically, if you can do that, then you'll succeed as a person.
Yeah, I don't really care about leaving a legacy.
I do want my work to live longer than me.
But at the end of the day, if you start seeing the world as like, oh, what about my legacy?
I think you're going to be continually disappointed.
You should be in it when you're in it and, yes, I'm going to do things that spread my work around.
I'm very satisfied with that, but I don't really think about at least when I'm making the thing.
I don't want to be so attached to something like that.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, it's just too much pressure.
It's just it's not going to result in good work for someone like myself.
Interesting.
Like, after this interview and the praise you've given me, like I should go and find someone who's going to yell at me and bring me down.
Just go on Twitter, yeah sure.
I should find someone that's going to no because I mean I fall into the trap of I mean maybe it's I kind of overanalyze myself, but at 40 years old and we're not having children or anything, and I think there's a part of me that wants to leave something behind.
If that makes sense, you know most people, they'll have a family and go.
Well, that's my legacy, right?
It's like I see my photography in terms of I want to create a body of work by the time I'm, whatever age, hopefully I'm old when I die and look back on and go.
That's kind of what I've left to the world.
It's kind of my love letter to the world.
Yeah, I believe in all of that.
But also like, what about right now?
You're doing it right now, that's enough.
The process is.
I tell this I have conversations about this with other photographers all the time Like the end result is great, but actually the amount of times I take photos and just leave them on my computer I don't even start edits for months, just because, a I'm a bit lazy, but B like I'm not so bothered about that, I come back off a week's project or something and have had the best time.
Like the process is way more important.
Like you don't.
I don't think you want to be shooting somewhere and be thinking like what about my legacy?
Like it's going to take you out of it, like you should be there and be present and just think like this is amazing that I could even do this in the first place.
But when you, you know, remember when we first met you were advising me to think more overarching about the body of work that you do and what the how to piece a story or a narrative together.
And the impact of that.
And I still.
I find that really difficult and I think that's what separates good photographers from great photographers, in my opinion.
I agree.
Yeah.
I know, I know I told you that, but also I also agree with that.
But it's just like you know everything.
Should I do take the long term perspective on everything that I do, because, yes, it's going to help your work?
It's just like, like what, if you did a project where it was like really great, but it wasn't as good as the last project that you did, Well, like, would that still be okay or not?
Okay To me?
I think that's okay.
Yeah, for sure.
Yeah, it's good to ramp it up and it's good to continually grow, but sometimes, like in my view, you're like, with those kind of expectations, you're never going to be happy.
But also to find good.
You know it's like it's good, like the experience you've had or you put an image next to another image.
Yeah, I don't know.
What is anything?
What about any job?
What is life?
No, but like, how are you going to find satisfaction?
Like you should be able to find satisfaction in any moment, or anything that you do, right, like what, if you pack the groceries for a living, perfectly fine job?
Like you should be able to?
the fulfillment is like, separate from that you know, so, like when you're going around the world as a photographer, like I don't see it as like a high mind, like higher than that whole thing.
It's just you should be able to like, if this is the only thing I'm ever going to do, like that's okay.
That's how I think.
Yeah, absolutely, of course I care, and I want to spread my book around, I want to promote it.
I want, I want, I want, I want.
But it's just, if you become holding onto that forever, I don't think you're ever going to make anything.
Anyway.
You got to kind of like let go sometimes.
Does that make sense For sure?
Yeah, but it depends on the goal of what you're trying to achieve, right?
I mean, if your goal is, I speak to some guys, go well, I do photography because I treat it like a business.
Literally, I want to make the most amount of money from it.
Are they the best photographers in the world?
That's not for me to say.
Yeah, that's a different school of thought.
Yeah, it depends on.
You know there's so many nuances within that right, so it's.
Well, there's a lot of different people who drive a car.
There's a race car driver, a taxicab driver, me trying to park, yeah, but they all use a car.
But those are different jobs, yeah.
Okay, I think we've solved the world's problems.
There are a few more kind of conversation cards here.
I like to ask.
Some of them are, I guess, a little bit more not personal, but a little bit, a little less to do with photography.
How many podcasts does it take to save the world?
We've done it already.
Just one this is one.
What is one thing that you would do if you weren't afraid?
at all.
I like that's a great.
Did that come from?
No, no, no.
These are my questions.
Okay.
We finished the Instagram ones.
I love that.
That's a good question.
If I wasn't afraid, let me think what I'm the most afraid of I think I would allow the more goofy side of me bleed into my work, because I make serious work, we have fun while we're doing it.
But I do wonder what it would look like if that Instagram person had asked why isn't nobody smiling?
What if I just let go a little bit of the restraint that I practice?
I would like to see what happens.
Interesting, yeah, good answer.
Thanks, god.
This is yeah, I'm not going to ask that one.
What are you clear about now that one year ago you didn't know?
I could probably answer that for you, I think.
When you look at this graphic, do you see a bunny or someone being murdered?
Sorry, what was the question?
What are you clear about now that one year ago you didn't know?
Okay, okay, I understand.
Maybe it's not a year, but let's say the last few years would be.
No one will ever care about your own project as much as you.
No matter how you convince them, no matter how much you explain, most people don't pay attention and you have to constantly repeat things, and that's okay.
And no one don't assume anyone has been paying attention, even if they're like your biggest follower or whatever.
Don't assume that that person knows anything that you keep inside of your head.
Because, most people are living their own lives.
Everyone is in their own head right, yeah.
It's very difficult to find true kind of understanding and empathy in this world which is not a-.
I don't expect it.
No, no, of course not.
But just don't assume that people know everything that you've ever done or that you're doing, like most people who even follow me at a very close level, like it's understandable that, like I think they know more than they might about what I do.
Does that make sense?
So just it's okay to that's okay.
Yeah, yeah, One reason why I like these conversations.
Hopefully we can pull something out that maybe someone didn't know about you, but and that's actually I've said a lot of things that on this podcast I've never said on a podcast before.
So that's good, okay cool.
What on the same lines?
Actually tell us something about yourself that no one knows and might be surprised to know about you.
Then I'll stop putting you on the spot, if you're willing to share.
Yeah, and I just have to think of something that that's okay to share.
Okay, I got it.
Okay, I love the Aqua album that has the Barbie girl song.
I don't know why I'm laughing.
I love it too.
Really.
I love the Barbie girl song.
Yeah, can I-.
I don't think I know the album.
Yeah Well, the Barbie girl song is great, but can I ask you something?
Do you think like that that band is like in on the joke, like they know, like they're ironically making that music, or is it like because they have like other songs on the album that were like big hits when I was like, okay, growing up, like I am the Candyman?
Kinda move on Bounty Land right, and then they have another one, dr Jones.
Dr Jones, dr Jones, yeah, okay.
I listened to that and, non-ironically, I really like it.
But I do listen to it and ask myself, like are they in on it and like it's like like pop music designed to be stupid and they don't care, or is it just like they thought that that's like a great?
No See, I beg to differ.
It's a good topic, but what I think is they could be such great artists that like they're in on it and they're like they're ironically making the best pop songs that they know are great, but they're mindful and knowing that it's kind of trash, but that is like likable.
I probably, actually probably think it's a bit of both.
Yeah, I think they knew it was trendy at the time.
We were talking nineties, right, mid-nineties, yeah, yeah.
Mid to late nineties.
Yeah.
I think they knew that was kind of the genre to be popular in.
But yeah, they can't not know that it is what it is as well.
Yeah, but is there a deeper wormhole about it, though?
Like, is there okay?
Like let me explain you something.
Like about the Barbie Girl song.
Like when it was released, mattel tried to sue the band.
Not right, because you know it's not good for, like a toy company.
It's like you can touch me there dress me everywhere Like they're trying to sell like toys, like that's like not a good thing to look like you endorse, even publicly.
I guess they chose to do a lawsuit that they are gonna lose, because it's artistic freedom to say what you want and make a parody right, which the song is, I think.
So they, like Mattel, the owner of Barbie, did a lawsuit against them which they know they couldn't win, probably just to say we don't like this.
But now the song is sampled for the Barbie Girl soundtrack.
So is this?
Is Aqua a giant art project?
I think it is.
If it is, it might be the most.
I think it is.
I mean they must be rolling in it now.
I mean that song has been sampled many, many times, right Even before the movie, which has been a great success.
Yeah, good, I can honestly say I've never thought about that before.
Yeah, and like if you went to the MoMA and the video was installed on a beautiful screen, you would look at it as an art piece.
Yeah, definitely I think.
I would Maybe the visuals, not the audio.
As a self-aware art piece.
I think it's self-aware, Okay, Like just watch it or I don't know, get as high as you can and watch it.
I was gonna say will you hold my shoes?
I don't know, but just that's something that people don't know about me that I love that album.
Great.
Thanks.
I've never had that answer before.
That's awesome.
All right, well, we'll start wrapping things up.
But for someone as prominent as you in the industry, I'd love to hear, even for me, but I know a lot of people watching and listening would just love to take bits of specific advice from you, especially for people starting out and saying lots of love for you out there.
I wanna be like oh, he's my favorite photographer.
How do I?
Where do I?
I've got a camera, what do I do?
In my opinion, is where people's eyeballs are is always changing.
So I was describing magazine photography was dying when I first started photography and there was kind of an oh no moment because I had shot for a lot of magazines that were dying around me.
But people's eyeballs are always in different places and with that comes opportunity for a visual artist.
So the advice that I have for new people starting out is, if you look at everything collapsing around us, it gives the impression that everything is going away and it is, but only the old ways of doing things.
And where people's eyes are now are new opportunities, and there's a lot of kind of new use cases for photographers.
There's a lot of like new, exciting things going on.
So the reason why I've, like I think you've been the doomer of this podcast and I've been the positive one which is like odd for me, because sometimes I'm the doomer, but I think, like the way, like where things are going is there seems to be more opportunities than ever.
So I would like first start just by looking at, like where people's eyeballs are, where there's a need for visuals, and what I would caution against is, you know, doing things that follow paths from the past that no longer work right.
First of all, there's no actual real path to be a photographer.
If we were to follow what made Annie Leibovitz a great photographer and what made her successful, a lot of those networks and things like they just don't exist anymore or they're dramatically changed or they're filled with insiders that don't have the budget or capacity to reach beyond the pool of people that they already work with right.
So if you try to like, emulate and copy that, it's never gonna work because this industry is rapidly changing and rapidly moving.
So I think it's just like it's more about paying attention to the world that's around you and then inserting something inside of it.
That's just like high value and high effort, because there's always gonna be low effort things around you being used at all time.
And one way that you can really stand out as a photographer is like seeing what's already working with something low effort and then adding a high effort version of it in an existing market or an existing scheme or an existing pattern that's already working.
So where would you say they look?
Where do these opportunities lie at this current time?
In my opinion, people's eyes are on their phone.
They're gonna be in AR very soon, like the glasses that people wear, the lenses that people wear.
We're gonna be like surrounded by different layers of the world, right Like right now.
When you see a Google review of a restaurant, it's like trapped inside of your phone.
I'm sure soon enough that's gonna be floating over the restaurant.
So already there was a need for images.
In the base layer of the world.
There's people building other layers on top of the world so it exponentially grows.
So that's personally like what I'm looking at and I would recommend other people getting started.
Look at that too.
Cool.
Okay, If you could have any guest to join you for dinner, who would that be?
Alive or dead?
I would like to have dinner with Paul Kagami, the leader of Rwanda.
Oh, really yeah.
Why?
Because I recently read the book what is it?
Land of a Thousand Hills by Kinzer, something you have to fact check this.
But his, not his autobiography, sorry, his biography and he seemed like a fascinating dinner guest Interesting.
Yep.
Well, you've been a fascinating guest.
Thank you so much for taking the time and know it's very valuable and it's been an absolute pleasure.
I'm very grateful for you.
I really resonated with the question.
So thank you, and to all the people who asked the questions, thank you as well.
Excellent.
Until next time.
Until next time, thank you very much, thank you, brother.