Wild Things with Princess Weekes

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Speaker 1: On the Bell Cast, the questions asked if movies have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef invest start changing it with the Betel Cast. Oh okay, this is the Bechdel Cast. Hello, Wow, it's me Caitlin Deronto. I was just saying, how I don't have an intro for this one because this movie is just so flummixing flummixing. Yeah, yeah, this is a movie that we just stated off Mike. It truly stumped us. It defeated the show. Every time I thought I was approaching a perspective for a point, it was blown up by the scene that happened afterwards where I'm like, well, I guess um, that is technically a lot of agency. That's be There's just when you think you understand what's going on in this movie that I didn't even know existed until are returning wonderful guest Princess Weeks brought it to us. Yeah, well, I was like, wild things could be about anything could be. It could be a kids movie, could be the opposite of a kids movie, which is what it is. Certainly that Yeah, oh my gosh, wait, let's start the show. Sorry, this is like in a good way. It felt good. It felt like someone stepping on your back. Okay, So this is the bucktele Cast. My name is Caitlin Darante, my name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast where we take your favorite movies and look at it from an intersectional feminist lens. And today, boy do we have a challenge because today we are covering the movie Wild Things from the year Uh is it night? A neo noir thriller film featuring um Are you just reading from Wikipedia? I thank you so much. I use exactly three words from Wikipedia there. Uh, but it's a it's a it's a sexy Florida movie where everything that can happen does? Can we just get into it? Because I like, I we gotta get our guested here, Like it's kind of urgent. Yeah. If if you want to know what the Bechtel test is, listen to the beginning of another episode. Honestly, we don't have time. We don't have time today. There's so much happening. Yes, let's just dive right in. Uh by introducing our guest first and foremost, she's a YouTuber and pop culture writer. You remember her from our episode on Space Jam It's Princess Week solo. I'm so copy back. So I got to infect you with this like glorious dumpster fire movie. Things will never be the same. It's like Nev Campbell has never been hotter. But also it's like it's giving so much gay confusion right now, so I have to we have to discuss. We simply must. And that there was there was another scene removed where Matt Dylan and Kevin Bacon hook up and they could Yeah, I know that was going to be one of the million things that happens in the last twenty minutes of the movie. I wanted it. Once I knew it was missing, I wanted it back. Anyways, we'll get Princess. How did this movie come into your life? I am genuinely so curious. What's your history? So I was on a horror podcast um with writer Adam Sass and queer intellectual Dana Pioli, and they mentioned the kiss between Nev Campbell and Denise Richard's in this movie being an Awakening, And I was just scrolling down the pandemic you know tubes, and I saw the movie. I'm like, oh, hey, here's that movie about that thing, and then I just started watching it for shifts and then every time I thought I understood what was happening, I was like what. And it's like so many twists, so many turns, and yet the movie is under two hours. Honestly, Yeah, that's what makes is so amazing. Like you're like, thirty minutes in this happens like you're just like it's it's a masterpiece of a mess. I still don't know how to define any of it. But when you were like, what movie do you want to watch? And I was like, we have to talk about this. I have to bring the ultimate feminist challenge to the Oh I'm ready. I'm very ready that Like I Caitlin, do you have history with this movie? I'm truly I like this is with with this kind of cast. I'm surprised that it I've never heard of it before. Yeah. My history is that I've known of the movie for a very long time. It's been on my ad are probably since it came out, because I was twelve when it came out, too young to like have seen it in theaters, but like I think my friends watched did it sleepovers? Like It's been on my radar since since its inception or conception whatever. Sorry if our listeners not familiar with the movie Inception. That was the famous fart noise from Inception. It is almost as iconic as the women in this movie, but yet not. It's true con Zummer could not top what Nev Campbell and Thanks Truths are doing here. So true. So I've known about it for a long time. It's been on my list of things to watch for a long time. But again, as I mentioned recently, because we've been covering a lot of erotic thrillers lately, it's just a genre that I never seek out. So knowing what it was, I was like, I'm not in the mood for this, so I just kept putting off and putting it off. It gets referenced in an episode of Pen fifteen. There's it's referenced constantly. There's like so many like pop culture references to this movie, particularly the pool scene, the kiss that you were talking about being an awakening for a lot of people. Um, and I've seen that scene before, but I had never watched it all the way through until about a year ago. I have a couple of friends of mine and I made like to do lists were like ten things we want to accomplish in the next year, and I made my very just you wait, uh, it's you thought you knew what my history of this movie is going to be. Let's full of twists and turns, just like the movie wild So my list I wanted to fill it with things that were extremely achievable so as not to um, you know, like disappoint myself or have unrealistic expectations. So one of the things on the list was watch Wild Things. Yes, I finally did. It accomplished my goal. Um So, I saw it for the first time about a year ago, was just completely blown away by how wild the movie is. I mean wild Things more like wild movie. Amazing joke, Caitlin, thank you so much. An extremely wild movie should have been the name of the sequel, of which there are three or four there are There's It's a franchise, There's a wild Thing franchise. Of course none of them start anyone nearly as iconic. But it's just like, wow, it got a sequel, It got well sequel. I didn't look into the sequels, but I'm okay, I start to figure but who with this movie? I mean I guess if your franchise is just based on twist after twist after twist every like two minutes, that's an excite hitting franchise to build on and it doesn't have to make sense. No, Okay, So here's a pitch I have for maybe like a reboot. So the Susie character, the Neough Campbell character, she's at home, she's misbehaving, she gets sent to bed without dinner, and then escapes into a fantasy world where she plots to murder her high school guidance counselor and his secret detective friend. And she also kisses her hot classmate and then everyone gets murdered except for Susie. It's called Where the Wild Things Are Wish we got there? I like it, genius. This is why you should take her screenwriting class, Ladies and gentlemen. Um, there's the plug book. Well, um, So anyway, that is my history with the movie. And then I've watched it twice to pret for this episode. I still feel like I don't know anything that happened in the movie, because I've never been more excited for a recap. I know, Jamie, what about you? What's your relationship? If any? Absolutely nothing I just let this movie wash over me. I had to watch it twice because the first time I felt like I went into a full body shock and I couldn't process what was going on. Just it's so like it is peak cast. Do we ever find out why Bill Murray's wearing a neck brace? Do we ever? Like I was, I did not expect Daphne Rubin Vega, who is in the original Broadway cast of Rent, to be in this movie. Just a lot of nineties treats for Jamie and this movie. I don't know what was going on the first time. The second time, I feel like I have five hundred pages of notes, all of which are questions. I yeah, that's my history. I was just uh huh, and I can't wait to talk about it. All right, Well, shall we get into it with the recap? Yeah? Good luck, I know. I was like, I do love how it begins with sex and then crime. I was trying to think of another phrase. I my comedy brain was not working, but I was like, there's got to be a bunch of like fun phrases to do that exact setup for like fun word followed by terrifying words like food poisoning. There you go there you go. I was literally staring at my computer for two minutes. I'm like, well, I guess that's the only way to do that. It's like it's like bread intolerance, you know. It's like, see you guys both have one. It's going to hit me like an hour from now, and it's gonna suck. Please let us know as soon as you got one. Okay, Okay, I'm going to start by giving content trigger warning because this movie deals with rape, sexual assault, violence toward and murder of women, false rape accusations, sexual relationships between adults and high school students. I feel like the list goes on extraction with pliers. Don't it's triggering to you? Yeah? Right. I love how this movie is still explaining to you what the what happened during the credits. It's great, such a weird choice. Um. But all this to say, the recap and our discussion will heavily involve all of these potentially triggering things, just so everyone is aware at the top. Okay, So we are in Blue Bay, Florida, which seems to be a pretty wealthy community not too far from the Everglades. Um, we see the glades, we see alligators. You think alligators are going to pay off in some way. They never do. We cut to a high school campus where the guidance counselor Mr. Lombardo say, I'm Lombardo played by Matt Dylan. Good character name, good movie name, Sam, that's a great name. My note for him is that he looks like Luke Perry, and that made me sad. What does a bit? But also, and I don't know if Matt Dylan is attractive. I don't find him to be attractive to me. He looks too much like my brother. But also in addition to that, I don't think he's attractive. Her brother looks like Matt Dylon came a little bit. Jamie's like, all right, Harry Goes. But the whole movie is like so many people want to have sex with Matt Dylan, and I just I'm just like, what do why whole families? When I have sex with Magelon? It's wild? This might be a silly question, Um, what is Matt Dylan most famous for? Well, because every time I see him, I'm like, I know he's famous, but I don't know for what reason. Oh? Yes, well, he was a teen idol and he was in several things so he started off as like a young actor who grew in to more popularity. He's actually been nominated for an Oscar and a Grammy. What a Grammy. Yeah, he basically has just had a very prolific career. Like he was in There Something about Mary, he was in On the Road. He did an audiobook for that, which I think he got numinated for Best Spoken Word Album. He was in Crash, a terrible movie, but yeah, is that still a movie? Still? An Oscar winning movie, Dark Times, and then he was in You. I'm like, looking at his filmography, I'm like, oh right, you mean dupree? I hate that that jumped out at me. Is like that movie. I think. Most famously, he was in The Outsiders, like the eight three version. Okay, okay, he's an Outsider's boy, thank you, thank you, And that's pretty much. It's it's like him st Bos, Tom Cruise, you know, every heart Throne of the eighties. It's like, here you go have a movie. It's crazy Macchio. Wow, I've never seen The Outsiders either. That's uh, that's my confession. It's by our boy f C C. Frances O f f CC Francis Ford Coppola. I wonder if that would be worth covering on the show anyway. Sam Lombardo is the guidance counselor. He's holding an assembly about sex crimes for the senior class, one of whom is Kelly Van Ryan played by Denise Richards. Sam invites Detective Duquette played by Kevin Bacon, and at a certain point I do start to call him Detective Bacon in my notes. So just so as you're aware of that that weapon, um. So, Detective Bacon and Detective Perez played by Daphne ruben Vega are invited to stage to speak about sex crimes. This upsets another student, Susie played by Nev Campbell. She seems to hate Detective Bacon, and we will soon learn that Susie and Kelly hate each other. It also starts with like him offering students, rides home in his jeep like he's a slimeball from from the jump. Yes, so what happens? I know it's but no. Yeah, So after school, Kelly comes up to Mr. Lombardo while he's teaching boat class. Question mark his whole thing. He loves boats. He's not like other guidance counselors. No, he's a cool guys counselor in Miami who Fox inappropriate the goddess counsel who Fox and loves boats. So Kelly seems to be especially like familiar and flirty with Mr Lombardo and she's like, let me come over and wash your jeep this weekend and he's like, I don't know about that, and she's like, give me a ride home and he's like uh, So he does give her a ride home. We see the huge house that she lives in, We meet her mom, Sandro van Ryan. Oh. We meet her in the most spectacular way possible when she's having sex with the pool guy, and that happens in US a later scene. But sorry, we do, I guess we do technically. Sorry, That's how That's how I felt her debut. Truly, what an incredible scene picking up your landline phone while having sex with pool boy, just wild stuff. She answers the phone because she's in the middle of having sex, so she goes hello acting acting. She's Strasbourg trained, look out for her so she's not having sex in this scene. But she comes out. She's like, hey, Sam Lombardo, kiss kiss and he's like, oh my, And then I'm why do so many people want to have sex with Matt Dylan confusing? So so then Kelly and her friend wash Mr Lombardo's jeep, but it's all a ploy for Kelly to go in and seduce Mr Lombardo and then it kind of cuts away. We don't really know what happens, although it seems like he's not interested. And then Kelly tells her mom the Mr Lombardo raped her. So Kelly and her mom, Sandra, go to the police and report the rape to Detective Bacon and Detective Perez. This is twist number one that I absolutely did not see coming. Yeah, yeah, So Kelly gives a statement about the rape. She tells them a particular thing that Mr Lombardo said about I don't even want to repeat it in the recap because it's really gross, But she says a particular line um, which also is an indicator that there is no physical evidence um. Detective Perez, because there's no physical evidence, thinks that Kelly is making this story up. Very not feminist of her. It's very un true, right, It's like, why, of of course the only comp that's a woman is given that perspective. And also I feel like that was one of the in in one of the least realistic movies ever produced. UM Cops immediately not believing someone felt authentic kind of The only thing that tracks about the entire movie is the way that cops behave. Yeah, the film is very a cab like. It's very like at the end of it, you're like, oh, we don't trust anybody. All authority is bad. Probably the working class, everyone except Nev Campbell deserves to die exactly. Only the working classes should survive, is what Well thinks. Is yeah, true, true, but you know, the kind of the other people who have heard Kelly's statement aren't sure because Sam has a reputation of being easy. So Sam knows that this accusation is going to be very difficult to recover him. His reputation will be tarnished, and he's worried he won't be able to find a lawyer willing to go up against the Van Ryan family since they're very rich and powerful in the community. But he does find a lawyer, Ken Bowden or Bowden, his name is pronounced differently in every scene. Um played by Bill Murray in the weirdest casting choice I've ever seen, baffling, Why is Bill Murray in the movie Wild Things, and why is he wearing a neck brace and why won't he tell us? I think it's implied that he's wearing it to collect on insurance money that he doesn't actually deserve, because he says something like, oh, I don't have to wear this all the time, but there was an insurance guy here earlier. That's my guess. It's the perfect crime, so can the lawyer is just like, don't worry, Sam, if you didn't do it, you have nothing to worry about. But we see Sam Lombardo being more and more rejected by the community. He's like banned from the country club. He's run off the road by this guy, Frankie, the pool guy who Sandra van Ryan was having sex with in my favorite part of the movie. And then when I was looking up um it was another I was a writer from the Ringers favorite part of the movie as well. I felt very validated Um in the scene where he's run off the road into the glades basically, and then it's it's very bizarre, like the pool that comes out. He's like, are you okay? And then I'll be fine and that he gets punched in the face, cut to a surprised raccoon, Like, I know, that is one of the best scenes in any cinema. That raccoon is a genius. And then they faced the black on the raccoon. It's so good, perfect editing choice. Yeah, I was like that had to have been some sort of editing pickle they were in were like, we didn't get a good punch or something like that. They're like, we do have the bureau of that raccoon and it looks it's it's great. Never underestimate a shot of a wild animal. You know, that's the wildest thing in the movie. If you ask me, wild things were like wild raccoon. Alright, really really great. Okay, So meanwhile, the detectives have begun investigating this allegation. They go to talk to Susie That's Enough Campbell again, who tells them that Sam Lombardo also raped her about a year prior, and she says that Sam Lombardo said the same line that Kelly had said Sam told her right, So that kind of corroborates their stories and it makes the detectives think that, oh, this this did happen. So they arrest Sam Lombardo and he gets thrown in jail. We then cut to the trial where Kelly and Susie give their testimonies. But during Susie's testimony, she reveals that Sam Lombardo did not rape her or Kelly. This was all for revenge. Susie's motivation is that Sam Lombardo and Susie used to be friends, but then he wasn't there for her when she was arrested and sent to Juvie, and so she's retaliating against him for that. Kelly is in love with him and got really jealous when she found out that he was having sex with her mom. So this whole thing is a revenge plot and it was all Kelly's idea. According to Susie, I had to rewind a couple of times to be like, now, hold on, what is the plan here? And I want to say, like the plot is so like Gillian Flynn. I can just see her as like a young woman watching this movie and like this is good ship. I can work with that. I can work with this. And I just like and like Nev Campbell is like acting so well how to stay like her eyes are all red and water and I'm like, girl, you were giving a very a plus performance in this be movie and it just elevates everything because you just believe her, and like Denise Richards is just sitting there, just seething with her like beautiful face, just like you bitch, and it's like, it's just like, uh, it's so. It's so the fact that nev Campbell could get those lines out and emote at the same time was I was just like, wow, egot, she she deserves it. She deserves it all. Because I could not even take that information into my head as it was being said to me. It was it was a symphony. It was wild. And then I also looked at I was like, how old were I looked it up to. Yeah, so it's like the age difference between Denise Richards and Magdalen in reality is like six or seven years. They're all it's it's all very like, which I don't. I mean, I'm glad they did not cast actual children in this movie because it's disturbing even like on its face. But I was just like something, it just it felt very c W two be in the way that I was like, what anyways, Yeah, it's yeah, because Denise is twenty seven and Nive is twenty five, and usually when you watch films like that. Everyone is staged and looks much older. They both look super young. They were like in their like early twenties, and I'm like seven. She looks great. I mean, she looks great now. Um, I love her. Is her name pronounced nive. I've been saying Nev Campbell. I have no idea which one it is. I don't know. I pronounced things badly, so I'm star doing. I'm just sad. What do you say, Caitlin? Nev? Then I'm gonna I'm gonna do that then, but I'm not sure if that's correct. I guess we've covered movies with her. Is there's sometimes when I don't know how to say an actor's name, most usually Wynn McGregor. I just like, I just yeah, I think I think you're right, Caitlin, because on on her pronunciation thing it's like and eat and V. So then I'm guessing it's nev ne Okay, Well Nev, I'm sure you're listening and got it right. Okay, So we get this big reveal, this big twist that these rape allegations are false and it was all a big revenge plot and it was all Kelly's idea. So now Sam Lombardo can file a lawsuit against the Van Ryan family for perjury. So they settle out of court and Sam gets a ton of money from it, something like eight point five million dollars. And this is very upsetting to Kelly because her mom is breaking her trust to pay off Sam. So there's this scene where she like throws things at him and she's like, I hate you, You're the worst. And and then that's only halfway through the movie, so like, what else could even happen? Just you wait, we cut two Sam at this motel where he's been saying Kelly is there, and we're like, oh, no, she's going to get revenge on him. But twist, Kelly and Sam Lombardo are having an affair and they plotted this whole thing together to set up Kelly's mom, Sandra Dune. Then and guess who else is there? Susie Done. Where was the inception soundtrack for this, because that would have been very satisfying if Susie walks in and it's just like, yeah, I gasp or like remember in Rogue one the trailer when they're like either if guys would have been great? I truely I gasped when I mean, at first, I was like, Okay, okay, that's the twist. Denise and Matt are in on it together, Okay, But then when Nev Campbell comes in the room, I was like, okay, this movie is And that's like less than halfway through the movie. It's like they can't, they can't maintain this, but then they do. But then here's my brilliant observation about this movie. I'm like, oh my gosh, it has so many twists. What is it a Saw movie exactly? And for more of that, you can listen to our new Saw episode on the Matreon Wow plug Alert game over. And you know what, as a patron, I can say, it's worth the money. Thank you, says oh my gosh, just lady supporting ladies. Wow, solidarity simply what we do. I'm like, I'm like Mimi and from Rent in this movie. Although although technically she was right, she's like, I don't trust this this white girl, and I'm like, oh man, but it sucks that she's right. There are a lot of ways to like because I was I was thinking about that too, where it's like like there's so many ways to view that thing where it's like she is right to disbelieve this spoiled, rich white girl. But then also she's a cop, and you're just like like it, um, this one's a brain breaker. But also she is right. But she's right, she saw right through the scheme. Okay, So Susie is there, Kelly is there, Sam is there. They're all working together. They're going to split the money three ways. Then they all start kissing each other. They have a threesome, but after that night they can't be seen together because people will catch on to their scheme. We then cut to the detectives. They're feeling silly from being duped by Susie and Kelly, and Detective Bacon is like starting to piece things together that this might be a setup for Sam the teens to get a big pay day. Um. So Detective Bacon goes to question Kelly and then later Susie and they're both like, um, I don't know what you're talking about. I just feel like I don't know. I was just like it's such a huge risk for it's specially Susie, where it's like, Okay, all you have to do is ruin your life potentially and open yourself up to public. The public scrutiny of and if everything goes off according to plan, then you'll get like a couple of million dollars, which is like, I mean, that fucking rules. But there's so many things had to line up for that to happen. Especially first, I was just I was just concerned about Susie the whole time, because I'm like, she's she is the vulnerable one of the three, and she starts freaking out about the whole thing. She goes over to Kelly's house. Kelly calls Sam. They have a private conversation where they're worried that Susie is gonna blow this for them, so Sam ominously says, well, if she gets out of line, I'll handle it right. And then because Susie is upset, she and Kelly get into a fight. They're like slapping each other. They fall into the pool they're trying to drown each other. But then this fight turns sexy and they start having a heavy makeout session, which I think is the scene that the movie is most famous for. Meanwhile, Detective Bacon is nearby spying on them and videotaping them, so for him, this is more proof that Sam, Susie, and Kelly are including in this scheme together narc No. So one night, Susie and Kelly and Sam go to the beach and Susie is really drunk and Sam kills Susie and buries her body in the glades or does he or does he? It reminds we have one of you guys were doing. Black Swan is like or is it? Black Swan wishes it could reach the narrative Heights of wild Things, so not long for this. Detective Bacon finds the spot where this murder took place, and he finds some teeth, but he's not yet sure if any crime was actually committed or like what happened, or if they are Susie's teeth. Detective Perez, on the other hand, thinks that Susie probably just ran away to l A like she said she was going to, and then Perez is tasked with keeping an eye on Sam, who invites her into his hotel room to show her Kelly's school file, which does seem like some kind of hippa or something violation. Yes, not much, that's definitely not professional. Yeah, not professional. Also not professional as him sleeping with his students. Very gross. I love, I know that he works at like a fancy private school, but he had I was like, a guidance counselor has that house. He's so rich, must be from money or something. I was like, I don't think that that is a guidance counselor salary house, especially not in Florida. I feel like where they don't pay educators particularly well, right, I'm like it should it should be every guidance counselor doing their job well should live in a palatial estate. But an have a boat and have a boat. Why how does he this? This perpetuates the narrative that guidance counselors have boat money, which they should, but they don't. They don't, right, Okay, So he's showing his students files to Detective Perez and then he and Detective Prez almost kiss, but then he's like, I gotta go by. Meanwhile, Detective Bacon pays Kelly a visit. He claims to protect her because he thinks that Sam is going to kill her. Next I think, I'm not really sure what the motive was here, but there's a struggle that we can't totally see. We hear gunshots and then Detective Bacon comes back outside. He's been shot in the arm and Kelly has been fatally shot. He gives a statement saying that he had to shoot her in self defense, but even so, he is fired from the force. We then cut to Sam Lombardo on a beach. He's chilling, he's got his millions. Uh. He goes into his hotel and who is there but Detective Kevin Bacon and his bacon. What an artful turn. It's just yes, incredible, the way he casually turns we see his penis. I don't know why, because they've done everything but full frontal at this point. I don't know why. I was like, oh my, I felt very old because we're still we still like I remember the first time I saw it. I was like laying on my couch and I was like, is that Kevin Bacon's favors? I was like, I texted so many people. I was like, did you know about this? Did you know about the pain? It's like it was such a surprise. It was just so like you said, casually done. Yeah, and then they were supposed to make out. I'm like, so we could have had Kevin's bacon and Matt Dallen's for like, come on, guys, and and after all we've been through watching Wild Things, we deserved it. I feel like we earned it, as viewers did. Um. But yeah, I thought that that was because, like I mean, I feel like full frontal scenes are treated so like tight shot, like we did it, and this was just so casual, like blinking you'd miss it. But also you know, hot and thrilling and confusing, because this movie is all three of those things. Okay, So Kevin Bacon shows his dick in movies. I think all the time. He really I didn't know he was known for that. I think Caitlin's dropping. What else have you seen Kevin Bacon's penis? I feel like we're having I seen Kevin. I'm googling it, but I'm pretty sure that. Okay, So he's in a movie called Hall Old Man, which I think you see his penis in. I'm gonna regret this google search. I know, I know, I'm like furiously Okay, here's something from cinema blend dot com entitled why movies need more penises according to Kevin Bacon. Oh my gosh, Kevin Bacon on male nuditian movies. Gentlemen, It's time to free the Bacon. Uh wow, six degrees of Kevin Bacon takes on a whole new meaning. Now wow, that's like pretty fucking cool. He said this in somewhat recently, but still we want to be naked too, Thanks Kevin. Sure, Kevin. Now, not to bring up the minions, but we are talking about Kevin. Where is this going, Oh Kevin, Okay, the Kevin connection. Yes, six degrees of Kevin Bacon. Um, Kevin the Minion and Kevin Bacon are separated by only by zero degrees because they're both named Kevin. Yeah, they're part of the grand tradition of Kevin's in film exactly, Kevin Klein, Kevin Bacon, Kevin the Mignion, Kevin the Mignion, Kevin le Mignon, Le Mignon, filet Mignon. So he picks up the phone because bellow Kevin le Mignon. But all that to say, like Kevin Bacon is I didn't realize that he was part of a movement to to free to Bacon Um by his own description like full support. Thank you, Kevin, Um, thank you for your service. And this was this was a thrilling moment in a thrilling movie. Absolutely truly yes, so we see his penis. He's in the shower. Because another twist, Kevin Bacon and Sam Lombardo are partners and the two of them have been colluding this whole time. Tragic. They talk about Kelly's death. Kelly wasn't supposed to die, that was not part of the plan. But now the cops are convinced that Kelly is the one who killed Susie, so it seems like Sam is totally off the hook. Sam then takes Detective Bacon out on his new sail boat, and Sam flings him overboard because I guess he wants all the money for himself. He doesn't want to split it with Kevin Bacon. Kevin Bacon gets back on the boat. There's a scuffle, and then another twist because I guess who's there, Susie. She's not dead after all, you know, like rich Miami lady wig, and she shoots and kills Detective Bacon with a harpoon gun and I love a good harpoon gun. It's my favorite weapon. It's and then she kills Sam with poison, the second coolest weapon. She's like giving him this like snarky pop quiz as she's murdering. Oh it's so satisfying. Um. And so we learn that Susie is a genius who knows how to sail, and that basically she was the mastermind behind this whole thing, because during the credits we see flashbacks of Susie approaching Sam Lombardo and like blackmailing him. She tells him to befriend Kevin Bacon. She's just like again orchestrating this whole scheme. You see the tooth removal, which that's going to stick with me for a while. That's right up there with the raccoon right. Uh. Then we see the scene where Detective Bacon actually shoots Kelly twice, like not in self defense, he just like makes it look like she shot him. And then finally there's a scene where Bill Murray gives Susie a case full of money and then she kisses him on the cheek and it makes it seem like they're also in cahoots or something. Not really sure what the intention was there, but that is the end of the movie. So let's take a break and we will come back to discuss and we're back. I just wanted to pull more this did this Kevin Bacon? Uh? I just wanted to return to the free the Bacon movement for just a Kevinbacon bellow. Kevin Uh. He said, gentlemen, it's time to free the bacon. And by bacon, of course, I mean your weener, your balls, and your butt. He goes on to say that his show, the show he was on, was canceled because there wasn't a single shot of his penis. He really was going in. This is like all done in a jokey way. But I just love him. That's good. I love him. Uh. There were two things I wanted to bring up because I try to bring some good stuff to the to the show when you bring me. So. One of the things that I love is the conversation between Um Susie's grandmother and a detective, where it's revealed that the reason why she wants revenge on Ray the cop, is because he murdered a seminal boy that she was friends with. So she's an ally, So we love that about her. And then the late Great Roger Ebert gave Wild Things three stars and in his review he says, he says this, which I'm going to read it just because it's really hilarious. He says, Wild Things is lurid trash with a plot so twisted they're still explaining it during the closing titles. It's like a three way collision between softcore sex film, a soap opera, and a B grade noir. I liked it. Look when he's right, He's right. He that goes on to say the movie solidifies Nev Campbell's position as the queen of slick exploitation because this was right after both Screams, and gives Matt Dylan and Kevin Bacon lots of chances to squint ominously, and has a sex scene with Denise Richards that is either gratuitous or indispensable, depending on your point of view. He then goes movies such as this either entertained or a friend audiences. There's no neutral ground. Either you're a connoisseur of melo dramatic, comic vulgarity, or you're not. You know who you are. I don't want to get any postcards telling me this movie isn't bad taste. I'm warning you it isn't bad taste. Bad taste elevated to the level of demented sleeves, and I just thought eloquence style. Look we've had our disagreements with Roderie Britten's it that is, Uh, that is because a solid appraisal of the movie. I love that he gave it three stars, would not have three out of four to like, that's a he's on a different scale. Yeah, he has some of the weirdest reviews, Like you never know he's going to think of something, And I find that's why, even when I strongly disagree with him, I'm like, I just want to know what he's thinking exactly. We always bring up his reviews for a reason because either we're like, whoa, I'm shocked that we were on the same page about that, or like, this is the worst thing I've ever heard. Interesting, Well, here, he's right. What did he call it a demented sleeves? Or yes, he called it demented sleeves. I mean he's not wrong. Um, where do we want to start with this analysis? Uh, there's a there's a smash Myth song in this right. Oh, I just wanted to firm at the beginning. There's I think a smash Moth song. Is it smash Moth? I couldn't remember. I'll verify, I'll verify that. But but there's plenty of other things to talk about. Yeah, where where would we like to begin? Does anyone have a strong so for me? I remember first watching the movie and I was like, great, they're gonna make some that these girls lied about rape. I hate this. But then when it was all like, oh, they're all in this super contrived, ridiculous revenge plot, I was like, well, this I can handle. You know. It was like it was like a very thing of like and it was just purely like these two girls lied about being sexually assaulted to destroy this man's life just because they were bitter. I was like, that's annoying. I don't like that. Delete, but I do support women's wrongs, and I really did like how it came together, even while knowing that it was very bad and not at all good. Like it's because it is like net Like, if you're looking for like a good takeaway this movie, I don't think that you'll find it. I did find some attempts to be like this movie is feminist actually, and it's like, well, let's not. Let's not go completely wild, Like I don't think that there's a really good argument for that, but it's so off the rails that it's it's almost like hard to talk about because it's so off the rails every single thing it happens. And where I was thinking about I was trying to like put it in historical context of like, okay, somewhat recent but also completely different time. There is this element of this big public trial, of which there were a ton in the nineties, most of which women were like disbelieved in and mistreated and like you know, ganged up on by the media and the public. And I was like, maybe the is trying to say something about that. It seems like that's definitely like the world this takes place, and but then it takes another turn and then your five steps removed from that and right at its core, like having a movie about two young girls lying about rape even though like you could argue they have been statutory raped by Matt Dylan because they are under age, like it, uh, you know, right, right, Okay, So, like I tried to kind of map out the story and like the twists and the implications of what happens with each kind of major story beat, and like what you're thinking as an audience member as things progress. So first you you think it's you think it's about two teenage girls being assaulted by an adult man being assaulted by their guidance counselor, although I don't remember, Okay, I think we're supposed to think that Denise Richards is lying from the beginning, though, because we see that shot of her quote unquote seducing him and like what we're told as a calculated way, Yeah, I feel as though the movie wants you to be under the impression that she is lying about it, because she is like this, like, yeah, this s doctress who is now bitter that she was rejected, so you see her give her statement. We meanwhile have this female cop being like, I think she's I think Kelly Van Ryan is lying. We can unpack that further. But then it turns out that the teens are lying, which perpetuates the myth that survivors of rape are lying and making it all up to ruin the lives of men, which was also like the public narrative at these big show trials of the nineties as well. Exactly. Then it turns out that the team girls are in cahoots with the man and trying to make money from it, which perpetuates the myth that survivors of rape are lying and making it all up for financial gain, which is another common perception. Also, meanwhile, this adult man is in a sexual relationship with both of these teen girls. And while the movie repeatedly lets you know that they are eighteen, they are the age of consent, but st like you, your teachers can't have sex, but their students dynamic, power dynamic, disgusting. Yes, he's, like, I think, supposed to be twice their age, like he the characters twice the ages the girls there c W. Casting is so wild, guys, because you're like, I'm not sure, Okay, I didn't catch that they were stated to be eighteen. They're stated to be eighteen, got it? But who knows when they turned to eighteen? Also, again, the power dynamic is extremely disgusting. Then we're led to believe that the two girls are murdered by one of the men and then the other guy who turns out to be his partner in crime, who we learn is a corrupt cop, but not the same cop who thought the rape victims were lying, So that's confusing. And she is another thing that I was like, is Daphne ruben Vega implied as having a relationship with Kevin Bacon as well, Like there's like some scene between them that seems kind of like hinting at somewhere or intimate, but I wasn't sure. And then it's like she's the only one that's actually, I guess attempting to solve the case, even though her I I can't always trace her logic, but I wasn't sure if it was also implied. It just like is implied. It seems like that every woman in this story is in a sexual relationship with either Matt Dylan, Kevin Bacon or both. Yeah, It's like one of the most frustrating things is because like if you watch like the right thillers of like the nineties and eighties always pick like the most generic white man, like all of them with like Michael Douglas, and I don't understand why these beautiful women are trying to ruin, you know, the dick life of Michael Douglas. You know, is that who I don't believe Glenn Close is going to ruin her entire mental health for this person. It doesn't always get I I still I'm not all the way through it yet, but I know that that's the most recent season of you must remember this is like all about eighties erotic thrillers and like the politics surround again and the actors surround again. But it is all like it's a murderers row of like oh that that guy question Mark, Like they're all just like different variations on the same you know, sharp jawed white guy that I think whatever. I mean, Like, if you're into it, you're into it personally. In this I'm like, you know, Matt Dylan works for me. You shouldn't have told me that about your brother, Caitlin. I know someone's gonna be getting some texts. Okay, we shouldn't be surprised because you're also hot, Caitlin, so that only it only makes sense. You got hot jeans. Thank you so much. You're so well and honestly, if someone if you were like Matt Dylan's my cousin, I'd be like, you know what I see it. It's the powerful face structure. I feel sick. Um okay what okay? So then the final So the final like twist slash, big reveal is that one of these girls isn't actually dead, She was not murdered, and she was scheming against the men the whole time. The whole thing was her idea and she's an evil genius, which you can argue, like, turns out she has the most agents I know along canonically, Yeah, I think there was an interesting comment from the director about that. The director, John McNaughton, he said in so twenty years later he says that this was his most political film because of how he felt it commented on social class. He said, quote, who wins the girl from the trailer park. She's all alone on the ninety foot sailboat out on the Caribbean. Pretty much everyone else is dead. That was the nineties, with the concentration of wealth, but the girl from the trailer Park takes them all down. You know, I'm from the striving working class. A lot of the kids I grew up with, the parents didn't care if their kids dropped out of school. But some of us had parents who insisted their children have an education, go to college, escape all that. So that's where my heart always lies. Unquote. That's a loaded statement in itself, but I thought it was interesting that he was willing to like publicly be like for me, this is a movie about class struggle in Florida, which had it been handled differently. I'm not saying it was done well, yeah, yeah, It's one of those things where like I read that quote and I'm like, well, I admire the hootspah, the ambition. It is a bit of a mess, and it isn't interesting like Marxist reading of the fill of like how do you do a thriller like this in which you do work to make the women more empowered? Because if you think about something like fatal attraction or basic instinct, there is this idea that like, at the end, the man has to be the one who survives these toxic women. And so in that sense, it is a flipping of that trope, but it does so by leaning into some of the most problematic tropes about what it means to be a survivor. And I think I've been kind of coming to terms with this for a while because I do like erotic thrillers. I do like these kind of stories. It is just hard to enjoy them because people actually think that women are like this, that's a thing. We live in a patriarchy, and like there are people who really believe that women are black widows that will like do these long cons to like ruin a man's life, and so it stops you from being able to enjoy a movie in which a girl does a long con to ruin to men's life quite frankly deserved it one is a murderer and one was a statutory rapist, right, Like that's like the perfect Yeah, that like crystallizes something I could not have stated as well, where it's like it's exciting to engage with this genre as like an escapist fantasy of like, oh, wouldn't it be amazing to be playing a game of four D chest with a bunch of assholes and like win. But yeah, like the general sis male perspective, and certainly in like was like it's supposed to like create fear within men that like all women are out to get something from them and if they don't get what they want, they will ruin your life and lie. And like it's just like the least from that perspective, it's like the least introspective way to approach a movie, which sucks because it is super like I used to I feel like earlier in this podcast, like years ago, I would feel kind of like guilty, I guess for enjoying movies like this because you're like, oh, they do on their you know face appeared like not particularly pro woman because women are made out to be liars. They're like executing these long cons. They're disbelieved in all this stuff. But it's like it just depends on how you're engaging with it. There's a million ways to engage with everything. And it's just like the dominant interpretation were always given is like the is sis mail And so if this movie was um just for people who who understood it feel so fun. But but even but then it's like you've listened to what the director says and it's like, well, maybe he doesn't even understand it, so question marks all around that. Plus what takes me too far out of it to the point of no return for this movie is that so much of it relies on these false rape allegations, which is such a very very harmful and sinister thing to perpetuate, where I'm sure like young men boys like watch this movie and they were like, oh my gosh, women they will just make up stories and they will accuse me of sex crimes just so that they can ruin my life and try to get money out of me and try to get attention and like you know, fame and all the reasons that people believe survivors of rape and assault come forward. This movie reinforces this idea that, yeah, rape allegations are wrong. People made them up up and they did it for very selfish reasons. And it's just like, because that's so much at the crux of this story, it's just too hard for me to be on this movie's side. Absolutely, And I think that's I think I think that's just as valid as those of us who enjoy the titillation of it, because it really is like everyone has their own barometer, like every everyone has their own threshold. And I think what is frustrating is that it really is sort of like you know, we talked about like how society informs art and how it informs the audience right back, and I feel like that's kind of where I'm at when I rewatch this movie. It's like there's a part of me that likes it because again, I like women's crimes, and I like and I and I and I find it and I find it compelling about this like girl who's poor uses the like the sexual taboos of the people around her in order to get power. But because we live in such a fucked up society in which that kind of woman is seen inherently as a liar, as a con artist. It stops you from being able to just really get absorbed into this story. I mean we see that with, you know, with Gone Girl. Like there's been so much recent because of certain celebrity cases about like everyone bringing up like you see, like this is why we can't support these films. And people have been saying things about Gillian Flynn that I don't necessarily agree with, but it makes it so that even a film like that, which is clearly playing with noir tropes and these kind of things, is seen as suspect because it does perpetuate an idea that this is something that women do like. And the critical reading skills and watching skills have made it very hard to enjoy everything. So thanks for that of ours, Thanks for that knowledge. And it's like there's and then there's plenty of people who watched Gone Girl and like love the ship out of that movie for the same reasons you're describing, because they and also because they have some perspective and can take you know, three steps out of a movie successfully, and and also like we've been like hinting at this throughout the whole episode. But as as I was, I hadn't seen this movie, but I felt like, this is like the most this is like the X Games version of this premise. But like I was like, oh, I've seen movies with this premise before. Like when I was working on Lolita podcast, I was looking at all of the nineties movies of like teenage temptresses that are lying and ruining a man's life, because that's the way that Lolita is framed by the narrator. That's what he you know, needs people to believe is happening. A whole other thing, but it reminded me Um, this movie, at least up until it really goes off the rails, was reminding me of this. Alicia Silverstone's first movie is called The Crush. It's kind a similar where it's like a young It's about a teenager who becomes obsessed with Carrie Elwis of Um of sow fame. I believe this is most famous role. Heaven chicks off both, but so like The Crush is a similar premise where it's like a teenager who finds, you know, an older man she's interested in, and then when she feels spurned or rejected by him, she lies to everybody and is out to ruin him, and he is a total victim in the story. She is this conniving, evil character and it sucks like from but I don't know, I'm I'm very like on and off in the genre where it depends on the execution and how it's framed. Wild Things works for me more because it's so off the rails that you're like, I don't know what the takeaway from this movie could possibly be, but but I totally agree with the Gaitlan where like, this movie doesn't work without fundamental disbelief in young women's rape allegations, which is, you know, inharcuably a negative. And also I think is I mean in light of recent events, like it's not like people are particularly more inclined to believe survivors of assault now than they were. Um, that scene with Bill Murray in the courtroom was rude. It was so god yeah, And and the fact that like you know that there are people who are just nodding along like yeah, and then it gets validated by her being a liar, and it just it is frustrating because I think if it, like anything that has to do with like sort of like I especially a friend of mine about sort of the concept of like rape fantasies that some women have in terms of like sexual and that like there is this in a billy you discussed this because that gets weaponized against us, you know, the fact that we might have those fantasies become a thing of like, well, then how do you know this is like that or this is like that. It's like it's it's these inabilities to separate real people from fiction. It's like it's fiction and this is a real person, and it's just like it's getting worse because even if I thought about this film from like the class perspective of like the reason why this you know, Afro Latina detective doesn't believe this very privileged white woman is like not just being like women are liars, but like that class element to it. But even that's not helpful because privileged woman can still be vigd in the social assault. And it does matter if you perpetuate like the blonde white woman as inherently like a third trap, because she is ultimately a victim in this film because she was being sangatory raped by her teacher. Yeah, and like manipulated. I think this isn't like touched on in the movie really, but it's like, for sure the Matt Dylan character had to be severely manipulating these girls to convince them that this is absolutely going to be in their best interest, because they're the ones who, realistically, in this situation, would have their reputations and lives destroyed by like engaging in this case at all. Like I think, I'm glad it doesn't go there, but like the Nev Campbell character, if that actually aired on TV in the nineties, like her life would have been ruined, like it's I don't know well, And then going back to what you were just saying, Princess, where you know it's this this woman of color who isn't believing this, you know, very privileged, rich white girl. That dynamic isn't something that the movie overtly explores. Yeah, exactly right. It's only just there for us to interpret, but not anything that the movies actually like clearly examining. So it's tricky. But yeah, so yeah, So there's that scene in the court where um, where Bill Murray is like basically badgering Nev Campbell's character to admit that she's lying. Very unpleasant to watch, much like a lot of the scenes between the cops and the two teens. It gets complicated because it does turn out that they are lying but UM. For example, when Kelly is giving her statement towards the beginning of the movie, Detective Prez says, well did you try to fight back? Um. She asks a similar question to Susie, saying like, well did you tell him to stop? Basically saying like, why didn't you try to stop getting raped? Susie responds with, you know, what's the difference, No one's going to believe me anyway, which statistically true. And then, like we talked about, there's the moment where Detective Press doesn't believe Kelly's statement because there's no She's like, well, maybe there's no physical evidence because she's making the whole thing up. You have Detective Bacon saying like, well did you flirt with him a little bit? You know, blaming her and suggesting that her behavior makes her at fault. All these things that are pretty authentic to how cops tend to conduct themselves when it comes to sex crimes, UM, and how they tend to handle reports of rape and assault. UM. I don't know if the movie is actively commenting on this or more just sort of like presenting it is like, well, this is just how it's happening in this movie. Can't really tell And I guess I don't know what my point is about this, aside from that's kind of the one part of the movie that does track the cops like conductor around these but it's rendered moot. I feel like when it turns out that the girls are lying about these allegations, and that's the core problem. Yeah, so's it's it's like really difficult to talk about this movie. They've created this like whatever like shell game that it's like, well, in the logic of the story, it's true that they're lying. It's just like the fact that that's what they defaulted to is very telling. And those I I would say, I mean, based on what I learned from a scholarly journal Wikipedia about the writing of this movie, I would say that probably a lot of this was not intended. It sounded like, uh, the guys went to Florida and uh wrote a little ditty. Um, yeah, there there's the credited screenwriter is a classic two first names Steven Peters love that. I prefer the work of Peter Stevens, but that's just mewise, there's two kinds of people, but like it went through a lot of rewrites. I guess um. A writer named kem Nunn was given a rewrite thing, and so they were sent to Florida and uh producer named Peter Goobers Peter Goober Oh my gosh, said that when I read the script, I thought, as crazy as it is, I do believe it could happen in the world we live in. Once I believe that a story can happen in the real world, then I know how to direct it. And you're just like, um, I don't think that they were thinking that hard or trying to say that much. If they read this script overre like, this is plausible, this could happen. Um. And the director also said, uh, I really liked the script, but it was also me asking myself, what sells sex and violence? You want sex and violence, Well, here you go. How much can you take it? They weren't thinking that hard. They did put okay, let's take a quick break and then come back and talk about sex and we're back. I feel like this is very important to bring up, so I apologize. So Steven Peters was fifty one years old when he wrote the script for a while. Things. Okay, so he's writing teen Girls as year old man. Oh my god. I was like, I saw I was like born nineteen seven, and I was like, I loved it. Whenever you find stuff like that out, are you just like I can't help but picture him at his house being like, all right, like time for dinner, Like, oh god, He's like. You know what teen girl else do is they plot schemes to ruin the lives of men. They punch each other and knock each other into swimming pools and then start kissing and they kiss they do kids, which okay, uh, let's talk about Peters. How could you so Peter Stevens would have done it better? Peter Stevens would never like So this scene in particular, which I thought went on for way longer than it did, I was like, miss remember maybe I was just you know, wishful thinking, not sure, but oh my god. Sorry, there's like if you type in Peter stevens our joke name into Wikipedia, three men come up. Of course, of course, one's a car designer, one's an r A F officer. What is that sounds scary? Alright? Sorry? Continue. I was just like Wow, Peter Stevens Cannon is real, real person. So the scene in the pool where Nev Campbell's character and Denise Richard's character they're mad at each other, they're physically fighting, they're trying to drown each other. Things take a turn at some point and then they are kissing and it's it's quite steamy, although it cuts away pretty quickly. I'm not sure if there's like an extended scene, like an extended version like on the DVD extras or something that I have watched, But I know there's an extended version of the movie. I don't know if they've seen in particular extent. This scene is not long. I have seen these thinned version and it is not longer. It is not longer. Okay, So I'm just filling in the gaps in my own brain. Good to know about me and my psyche. But the point is that I think a lot of people have cited this movie and that scene in particular as a sexual like a queer awakening for them. There's also a discussion to be had about queer baiting. There's a lot to unpack here. Also, keeping in mind that detect to Bacon is filming this scene on a camcorder, which will also um kind of transition to do another conversation about the male gaze in this movie. But the pool scene, thoughts, it really is the power of these two women just being very incredibly good looking, because like, because it's tacky, it's you know, supremely male gazey in every single sense of the word. Am I going to pretend that it wasn't nice to see Nev Campbell and in these Richard's kiss No, I'm not gonna lie on the beddel cast I will not. I will not be held in contempt of cast court. You will not perjure yourself. I will not perjure. It reminds me of like seeing Selma Blair and Sarah Michelle Geller kiss. That's like, was it a moment for me? Yes, that's the feminist in my brain and meant that this is not this was not made with me in mind. If they had had Kevin Bacon and met Dylan kiss, then we can have a different conversation. That would have been Denise's boobies kissing Nev Campbell and then the Bacon and then the kissing of the two men, and then we could have at least had some equal opportunity voyeurism, but we didn't. I agree. I this wasn't because I didn't know this movie existed until this week. This was not an awakening movie for me. But I feel like it's very easy to see like there are other analogs to this scene in nineties movies that do technically qualify as queer baiting. But also that doesn't invalidate the raw power that a scene like this can have. They also could be queer characters. I don't know that the filmmaker's intention was there, But do we really think that Stephen Peters or Peter Stevens or whatever the fun his name is, has any nuance on this topic. I would guess definitely, but maybe he would surprise us. I don't mean he might also, so the characters. Those two characters kiss I think three different times throughout the movie. First in the scene where Susie, Kelly, and Sam have a threesome, where like he's kissing one of them, he's kissed the he kisses the other one, and then he says, now you too, kiss and they seem to willingly and consensually kiss each other. And it's very hot, admittedly, and it seems like, am I am? I out of line? Baits saying it doesn't seem like it's like it seems like it's happened before, like could be that was my maybe that again I'm projecting. I was like, oh, wait, these ladies know what they're doing. Well, what I can say, I'll let you finish and I'll I'll come in with my facts that I wrote for this thing. Sure. So then they kiss again in the pool scene, and then they kiss the third time. I think they're in Kelly's mom's range rover. It's when they like go to the beach, and shortly shortly after that is when Susie is we think murdered by Sam. Turns out she wasn't. But they just share like we're just gonna we need to get wasted and have fun tonight, and then they kiss each other. So we don't really know because the movie doesn't explore their relationship beyond that, but it does happen three times that they kiss on screen. If that kind of contextualizes anything further, But Princess, you had you have a thought, so I wanted to say so. Nev Campbell said that she enjoyed kissing Denise in a interview when she talked about the Rolling Stone and they said that they kind of like got like, you know, had some margarities, and but then that they're both adult women does make me feel a lot more comfortable. Yes, and seven has a lot more autonomy than like a twenty one. Those few years do matter to me. And then she said that she wrote in her journal about the experience and she wrote, Okay, I'm going to make out with a girl for the first time in my life. It's so interesting that a lot of times you learn things about yourself and have new experiences when shooting a scene because there are things you would normally do in your life. It's so interesting, isn't that she's so cute? And Denise was just kind of like, at one point, I was thinking, it's four o'clock in the morning, I'm half naked in a swimming pool, I'm making out with Nev Campbell. What am I doing here? God bless? And one thing I will say, because I know there's been to talk about about consent. One thing that the director did say is that he puts all the sex scenes in the script, so whenever he hires actors, he makes sure that they know that that's in the script, that they don't have to feel tricked or manipulated into that once they're in a comforting zone, he'll maybe see how much more comfort they have was certain things. But he does put it all in there, and I feel that is a good thing as well. Yeah, I agree. It's it's like, I shame on me for being shocked whenever a director male director does the bare minimum for their cast. But like that, I was also kind of, I guess, like heartened to read about the fact that, yeah, like they knew about the nudity and it was like built into their contracts. Where like Denise Richards did an extensive negotiation on how much nudity would be allowed, she had the option to use a body double, she opted not to. You know, I'm assuming when she was like, shout out to the body double episode we did recently another erotic' um, but she said that she she filmed the scene with herself without a body double, after drinking a picture of Margarita's with Nev Campbell. Again incredible. M reminds me of the oh, what's the What's Ski Sisters thriller? We just covered bound. Yes, they also mentioned bonding and getting a little tipsy before hooking up on screen. For that movie, Campbell's contract had a strict no nudity clause, and Kevin Bacon also had a new no nudity clause that he then later because he was also a producer on the movie, even though he was quoted as saying, this is the trashiest thing I've ever read, but he's also a producer. Um, so he had a no nudity clause. But then he uh and quoting Wikipedia but without giving it much thought, allowed McNaughton to use the shot that he thought looked best in a moment of frontal nudity was included in the film. So you mean everyone had the option to be naked or not. So you mean, Kevin, let me show you my bacon. Bacon was originally like, no bacon in this one. Originally he was like, I want to be serious. But then he's like, actually, yes Bacon. Yeah, He's like, this movie will only be successful if I showed my bacon. And you know what, now, three sequel later, it was wrong not him. Yeah, how would the world be different? And and a big question in the ripple of how would the world be different is what if the I don't think it was filmed. The Duquette and Lombardo sex scene near the end of the film. I would imagine, and again, maybe this is my imagination getting away from me. I'm imagining Matt Dylan gets in the shower with Kevin Bacon in the scene with the Bacon I don't know. It says that the original screenplay featured a scene between Duquette and Lombardo near the end of the film where the men kiss in the shower. Oh that's why I think that. Okay, they kiss in the shower, revealing that the two had a relationship that allowed Lombardo to prey on Duquette in order to manipulate him and con him out of the money. This is a twist that is very in keeping with this movie. The reason it didn't happen, according to Kevin Bacon, the scene was modified to the Bacon scene. We have to eliminate any suggestion of a sex relationship between the men, as the film's financiers quote didn't like the idea of men making out. They felt it went too far unquote, which I fucking didn't feel like women making out went too far, Which goes back to sort of the male gaze kind of exploitation of women's bodies that we'll talk about. Um. Yeah, the last thing I want to say about the relationship or I guess sexual connection between Susie and Kelly. There's that scene where we learned what's in Kelly's file slash. We learned what Sam wrote in Kelly's file that he then gives to Detective Perez, and he says in it that Kelly is sexually confused, which implies that bisexual people or like like people who are questioning their sexuality are quote unquote sexually confused. A deeply stance to take another thing that's like presented I think very matter of factly and not as a way of commenting on anything. I think that that's just the writer being like And of course everyone feels this way because in the same sentence, Kelly is said to have threatened the life of two people, as if she is threatening people's lives because she is quote unquote sexually confused. Like her sexual confusion is leading to like violent tendencies kind of thing, which brings us back to the basic instinct. But I don't know if that's what the movie believes, or if that's just what sim Lombardo thinks, and we already know that he's a sleazy character who manipulates people. I couldn't really tell, and that confuses things. If well, I guess not to tip my hat or give Steven Peters the benefit of the doubt. But if that character was originally written as also being bisexual, then that's a totally different read on that scene. Totally confusing, so confusing. I just had the thought, like, I just was like, what if I want someone to cut the trailer for this movie with like the Jennifer's Body audio, because imagine if it was like Didnise Richards and and Nev Campbell in like Jennifer's Body. Now I'm just having chills. Go now, I just have to live. It's gonna have to live in my brain now. And it's the thing is, it's not too late either. It's not too late. It can be done. Can we talk about the male gaze cinematography? Absolutely? Sure? Okay, so we get a lot of it. Jeffrey L. Kimball. Just so you know, this is also at photography staging these shots known previously. Oh this is interesting. He was, this is really interesting. He was also the cinematographer for the Legend of Billy Jean that was his first movie. Okay, does not compute, does not line up all right? Well, anyways, so we get I think the first extreme example is a gratuitous scene of two girls washing a car. There are so many lingering shots of like their butts, their pelvis is like, we see their like wet t shirts. And this scene does not need to be in the movie. We do not need girls washing a car. Take it out of the movie. The movie is tighter and more seamless. But I also I don't but I also understand awakening appeal of a scene like that, but it's also like, well, but that scene is clearly intended for six men. So I'm going through Jeffrey Kimble's filmography and I'm curious er and curious er. He starts with a Legend of Billy Jean. He also is a cinematographer on Top Gun. He also did an Adrian Line movie, so he also did true romance Like this guy films Bodies, Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. Need to see that one wasn't him. Yeah, I haven't seen it yet, I have seen Bodies, Bodies, Bodies. I think he's retired. He also did Old Dog, which I don't have a comment on. I just think it's fun. Um. But anyways, yeah, this this guy loves a greased up, wet body to film. Sure, just that's threesome scene. There's a lot of like heavy focus on you know, the Denisius boobs her butt and the way that, like Matt Dylan's body is not focused on or objectified. We get a scene where Denise Richards is getting out of a pool all sexy for no reason. The camera slowly pans up her body. She's talling off. You can see her nipples through her swimsuit. Detective Bacon is like, nice stroke. Anyway, did you plan this whole scheme to get a bunch of money out of your mom? And she's like what anyway, no reason this scene needs to take place at a pool or like right after she's gotten out of a pool. Just a lot of choices were made, and I get it, like this is these are staples of the erotic thriller. But why is a trope of the erotic thriller to exploit and objectify women's bodies constantly? That's a question I would ask. It was like I felt so However, when I was rewatching that scene, I just like, damn, I hate that I am attracted to Like, damn it, my queerness portrays me again part of the problem. I felt like that I means I was like, am I am? I part of the problem because I obviously I would not have shot if I was a cinematographer, I would not shoot it in that way because it's just it's very over the top and es much because it isn't as equally like, you know, we have to see dick lines then, you know what I'm saying. It's like we had all the time. Yeah, we only see that one tiny little glimpse of coming Bacon's bacon, and that wasn't enough. And it wasn't even supposed to be there. It wasn't even intentional. I think it's also just like I remember watching the movie, I'm like, these starts are so vieuristic and these women look so good. It was like it was like, like, I know, it looked so cool, Like her styling was really cool. I loved her her like goth like outfits. Like I'm just like, man that the costumers really dressed these ladies up very nicely. Miss his hot topic herself. I really liked her costume. It there's a number of different ways to approach the cinematography where I think, like, on its face, it is like clearly exploitative of women, especially like very obvious what they're trying to do, very obvious, the like whatever that there's a good fifteen years leading up to this movie where doing that is a very proven money making box office move. This this movie, I think kind of baffingly makes its money back three times. But then it's, uh, I don't know, and then and then I'm like, I'm a little bit of a part of the problem in this case also, so it's confusing. Yeah, it's uh, it's kind of rude sometimes how are like sexual brains and our analyst brains. It's almost like they're sort of like having a fight in a pool and they're like kind of punching each other, but then they start kissing, and I'm just like, what's going on here? What do I think? And yeah, I mean the threesome scene. I feel like also was kind of telling like you like you're saying of like how it's very very preoccupied with Denise Richard's body specifically, it's not that occupied with Matt Dylan's body, And it's also very preoccupied with close ups on Nev Campbell's jealous face, as if to say, like I wish I was saying Matt Dylan, and you're like, of the two, are you serious? But like, but it's clear that it's like, oh, this is like for him. And again it's like if he if his character was canonically bisexual like he was supposed to be, it just becomes a more I think, like interesting conversation. And if men's bodies had been you know, if this movie have been preoccupied with the men's bodies as well, that shifts the conversation a little bit, but it doesn't. And I think it's really interesting that, like Kevin Bacon said explicitly, like our financiers were not interested in filming a scene between two men because you know that doesn't equal money in the way that queer betting between two women equals money, right. I also have a theory that and let's get into some screenwriting. Not that I know anything about it, not that I have a master's degree in it from Boston University, which I would never mention, but my theory is that because when you're writing a movie, you're always looking for ways to sort of just like heighten the situation, especially in like an erotic thriller. You're thinking, Okay, how can I make this, How can I push boundaries? How can I really make this tantalizing and push social morays and stuff like that, And I feel like including the sexual connection between these two teen girls was a way to be like, yeah, I can just sort of use that, use queerness as a way to really push boundaries and heighten this, heighten the situation of this of this movie that's supposed to be like sexy and violent and kind of sick because it's about you know, rape and salt and violence. So it loops in queerness as like a quote unquote social taboo, like it just yeah, it's just like in basic instinct when it's like Catherine, you know, she's bisexual but like dangerous, you know, it's like right, and I'm just sitting here like yes, and you know it can't just be yes. It has to be yes. And she is dangerous because she is bisexual and a sociopath, Like, please please include both otherwise it is very upsetting. One is biphobic, both is a character and yeah, yeah, yeah, it's the late nineties I mean it's like we were we were there, but what was happening there? I don't know. And it's and to your point, killing it's like by including a very queer baity plotline and just the general cinematography of like lingering on these women's bodies so much, it's like it almost is like it's like perceived as being risky when in reality, there were fifteen years of movies before this that proved that this was not risky, this was a sure thing for them. Well they so they still get to have the like aesthetics of being cutting edge and risky while actually playing it extremely safe. Well, what actually been risky and different is if they filmed the scene between Matt Dylan and Kevin Bacon. That would have been different. But these filmmakers didn't have the guts. They didn't have the if they had taken a screenwriting class with let's say, a young talented woman that wasn't born two years after World War Two ended, maybe that would have made a difference. Who knows, Killen. I've always said that you're the Stephen Peters of modern screenwriting. As a compliment, well, I preferred to be thought of as the Peter Stephens. So fair enough, your car designer. What else is there to discuss? Anyone have anything else? Just that like watching this movie for the second time. This movie is sex crimes. It is especially heinous. But to quote in another review of it, he said it was from the Washington Post. The person said, the film is clearly a croc. It may not have a single redeeming feature, but it doesn't have a dull moment either. And I'm just like, goddamn right, It's like that is And that's a former speechwriter for the Obama administration saying that it is so it is so bizarre. It is. It is legitimately not a good movie. But every time I watched it and just kind of like fascinating, you know, I just want to smoke a brandy. Drink of brandy is what the cigarette? Just be like fascinating. It's it's a lot like what if this is what the aliens find? Oh my god, And what will they think of us? Will they think we are awesome? Or like I just think I just think that, Like Denise Richards was like Starship Troopers this and then Bond. You know, it's like what a what a what a triple threat? Just like what a trajectory and you can't say she doesn't have the range. She's got there, she's got the I mean, there's a reason I think that this movie has sort of I don't know how much of like a cult following it has. But people still't know about this movie. People still talk about it still gets referenced, like it's been requested numerous times on the show. You know, it's got a legacy, uh for I think mostly being sexy trash. I mean, what's wrong with a little sexy trash here in there this movie? Yes, is there any thing? I mean, I think like it's We've mentioned this several times at this point, but um, this movie is extremely white. Um in a state where it doesn't make sense to be extremely like Florida is an extremely diverse state. There's no reason for this to be in all white cast except for Daphne Rubin Vega, I think, or actually there are a few the principle at the school. It's it's all, it's all kind of like the very light typical because even you know, the seminal character is dead and we never see them and they're the whole reason for this entire plot, and you don't see another indigenous person there at all, which is very disappointing. It's almost like Steven Peters didn't educate himself on jack Ship before writing this, Like it's in a very of the air away. It's a it's a very white, white, white movie, and that is one of the many facets of this movie that does not hold up. Um. I was happy to see Daphne ruben Vega. I just like her as a thirteen year old former recovering um fan of rent. But do I wish she was given more slash, more interesting things to do? Yes? Do I wish she was not cast as a cop? Definitely? Absolutely? Yeah? Why is she being like, don't believe women they're do? I wish that weren't her platform? Yeah? As there there any other things. I mean, we didn't really get to the mom uh, horny mom, horny mom. I mean there's really not that. Like again, I just don't think the movie is thinking about her very hard. But just because we we just so happened to record an episode about Tangled yesterday and talking about like a narcissistic mother with a daughter, I think it is like worth mentioning that it does give Kelly's character more dimension than I was expecting to give her a difficult relationship with her mom, who even when even though she believes her daughter's rape allegation, which again this is all blown up by the fact that it's not real, but her mother does believe her immediately but for very selfish reasons and makes her daughter's alleged assault all about her, which is I don't know what I mean, it just feels worth pointing out. And also the fact that Matt Dylan has had sex with a mother and a daughter that are both grieving. There's you know, spouse slash father who died by suicide the year before. It's just like the fact that we didn't get around to talk to you about that really speaks to how much is going on in this movie. I mean, well, I think that's nothing to say about grief, but I do think it's like, I mean, that's another thing they threw in there. My thought about that is so for a while, we are led to believe that this whole scheme was Kelly's idea, and that she is deliberately screwing over her mom to get money from her, like the trust that she feels that she deserves earlier, because right now it's like, I'm not going to get the trust until my mother dies. So we think for quite some time that Kelly has such a vendetta against her mom that she's doing this whole plot to steal from her mother, who I guess she hates. But I felt that their relationship was not contextualized or flored enough to understand what was going on there at all. Do they treat each other particularly well? I would say no, they don't seem like they have the best relationship, but there's just we don't know enough about it that I'm like, wait, what, why are she doing those now? And what? Because I also feel like with the mom, like there's a very shorthand of like woman having sex equals evil equals villain, and I feel like that shorthand is used with her character like or like she's somehow callous or unfeeling by wanting to enjoy casual sex, especially as like an older woman. Yeah, yeah, like they really, you know, shrewd ify her in a way that Yeah, I agree that there's not enough context. So it's like in one way, you're like, Okay, Kelly's character is very traumatized by like because there is that one scene with them that doesn't give you enough information, but it like I thought it was going to come back and it just didn't. Where Kelly's mom has different culty like touching her own daughter, like she can't touch her, and it's like trying to have a conversation with her about the dad, but like they can't quite communicate. And that is a really interesting setup if you intend to return to that extremely heavy plot point again, which they don't, and it ends up making Kelly's mom look extremely callous and manipulative and self involved. Then it just kind of drops it. So it's kind of like, I don't know, I couldn't even reach a conclusion of any sort about it because you're like, it just goes away. It was an interesting setup, but I guess I don't really have much faith in how Mr Steven Peters would have would have landed on it either. So yeah, that was my last thing. Pretty baller move though, for Sandra van Ryan to tell sam One that he was really good at sex, but that's all he's good for, and to say that in front of the other guy that she is currently fucking look pretty cool. Can't wait to try that out someday. Got I mean picking up the phone while you're coming is also like a pretty pretty incredible thing to do. Like, she's classically trained. I love going to like, yeah, you go to Teresa Russell's Wikipedia page. Lee Strasberg the same deal with Jigsaw. Jigsaw went like graduated from Yale drama school. And you're like, and it makes sense, but you have done that without the training. We don't know. I love you, guys. We're so happy you came back. Like do we do we miss I mean, I'm sure we missed something. I feel like I missed everything. But there's there's just too much happening in this movie. We we simply can't touch on it at all. My last question is, what does Teresa Russell's say? Did she say I missed it the first time I was an anapylactic shock. The second time I missed it? She said something on the phone to Matt Dylan, something akin to not every man knows how to drive my boat or like that. Oh, she says, I haven't found a man who can drive my boat better than you, or something like that boat as pussy metaphor. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. And the guy she was fucking knew it because he was like, really, girl, I didn't even leave the room, and she was like, I don't. This isn't about you. That's what I'm saying. She is an icon, perhaps maybe Mother of the Year. She is not. But did she say did that Lee Strasburg trained Teresa Russell say not not? Every man knows how to run ride my boat? Absolutely yes, and we stand, let's just we do. We have to hand it to her. Does this movie past the Bechtel test? I think so yeah, between some people, not as much as it should. I honestly forgot to pay attention. As pretty usual. I would look back and then they would talk talking to the movie like say, I'm gonna be like, god, damn it set up. Yeah. I think right before the girls make out, they are talking about mommy issues, So that might be. That might be the moment right before the queer baiting we get feminism and then it's gone. There's also the scene where the two girls go to the beach and Susie is like, oh, I thought we were going to go somewhere else and the other ones like no, I think we just like need to get wasted tonight, and then they kiss and then Sam shows up, but like they're like small exchanges within larger conversation. I think the larger conversations generally don't pass, but like individual with the micro kind of want to give it to this movie. I don't really know why. I'm on Scarletly Journal betel test dot com and there are a few that I think passed in the microway. Possibly not the macroway, but it allegedly passes in that scene you're just describing Princess between Nev Campbell and Denise Richards, and I guess it also passes between Denise Richards and her mom at the beginning of their conversation where she's being asked why she's missing school, right, and there's like a couple lines that passed before it's like, oh, did a boy hurt your feelings or like whatever, um ms, Lee Strasburg, says Teresa Russell herself. Yeah, it like sucks. Also that, like the scene that passes, it is also full of like a blest nineties slurs and just like yeah, every time every time I hear the R A word, and if I'm like oh god, it's like it's like a visceral, like oh God, I forgot that used to be a thing that happened. Oh no, and that happened all the time. Uh well, hey, how about that nipple scale of ours zero to five nipples? Based on looking at the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, I'm gonna get a nose bleed. Oh I think I'll give the movie a half nipple, mostly because of the way the movie ends, because for a long time I'm like, oh no, these girls are lying there scheming. Then they get murdered, so basically every bad thing that could possibly happen happens. But then it's like, wait a minute, nev Campbell was the mastermind behind the whole thing, and she's a genius, and I'm like, okay, I do kind of like that. Although I could have sworn that the movie ended with Kelly coming back also like her faking her death and it's the two of them like working together. That would have been feminism. That would have been like and then it could have ended in a more bound way where they both live, and this movie isn't really operating on bounds. No, so I misremembered that and it's just Susie. But I'll give that ending a half nipple. The rest of the movie is trash, particularly how the movie basically reinforces this extremely harmful and sinister idea that survivors of rape are actually lying and making it all up for financial gain and to ruin the lives of quote unquote innocent men. Horrible thing to reinforce, very gross. And then all the other things we talked about, just you know, the exploitation and constant objectification of women's bodies, and all the other stuff. The one cop who's a woman being the one leading the charge on disbelieving the other woman and being right. The list goes on. Just it's a cluster fluck. Um I do. I would down the line want this movie in a group. This would be a fun movie to watch in a group. Oh yeah, a drinking game. Definitely for every twist you die. But I'll give the movie half nipple, even though I don't think it really deserves it. And I will give that half nipple. I'll give it to the actor Daphne ruben Vega, not the character she plays, but the Yeah she rocks. I'll meet you there. It feels wrong giving this movie nothing because it's doing so much. Um, it would feel it would feel mean, but for the for the reasons that we've been talking about for apparence of two hours now. It is like this movie is kind of like like it creates all these trapdoors to make it impossible to talk about UM. But I think, you know, I think all things considered, we did we did a pretty good job. Because it's like, well, this almost made a point, but then if you go back to the original plot point that two young girls are lying about assault, that kind of makes all the points moved. This movie is saying everything and nothing at the same time. It made my head hurt, truly in good and bad ways. It feels like the most erotic and thrillyst erotic thriller I have maybe ever seen. Yeah, I don't know that I necessarily have much to add to what we've already said, except that, uh, someone wrote a whole essay that's cited on Wikipedia that this is loosely based on a Greek tragedy. Yeah, it's like you're telling me that Matt Dylan is supposed to be Hippolytis. It just doesn't make sense. But I think that that speaks to how baffling this movie is to like people need it to make sense in some way. UM, and by relating it to some of the oldest stories that exist on the planet. Um, okay, look, I like how Ultimately at the end, someone says, who says it? It's Bill Murray, much like e t he says, be good, confusing, I'm gonna gonna have a nipple and I'm gonna, um, I guess you gave yours to Dapty ruben Vega. So she's I'm going to give mine to Teresa Russell and um and her landline telephone. Yes, yes, that's amazing. I'm gonna put your two half nips together and make it into one full nipple. Only because I do appreciate Nev being like this white man killed an indigenous person, and so I'm going to everyone his life and all the white people around and I'm like, you know, I can, I can get down with that. And I think, you know, to quote from Macbeth, this this film is full of sound and fury signifying nothing. Um and and yet I will admit it got me sometimes. I know. That was kind of like, damn, they do look good, though I was I really, I was just talking to Jamie. I'm like, damn it. Part of the the sexy people do be sexy. It was definitely a thing where I was like, I was like, Princess, you're watching this to a feminist lens, and I'm just like and I'm like, yeah, this is not very bad, so you're watching respectfully, respectfully, So it's one respectful nipple. And I'm gonna give it to Nev for being an ally, for literally making the rich eat themselves and then walking away with a bunch of money into the sunset. Um. Yes, love love that for her, which she didn't have to, you know, uplift sexist tropes to do it. Yeah, And and it is such a fascinating, cool, inciting incident for the dafty ruben Vega character, for her to be avenging an indigenous friend, and the fact that that is also a really interesting salient, like super regional plot point to that is just dropped. Is garbage, all right. This movie was edited by a woman. That's my final drop of the episode. So well, I'm going to give her credit for making them look hot and for putting that shot of the rock coreon and that thought I was gonna say, do you think assis Man could come up with something of that caliber? Not possible? All right, Well, Princess, thank you so much. For coming back, come back any time. I love this place. I love talking to y'all. I feel like I get a mini film education just coming here. And thank God for you, Caitlin keeping our horny energy on on Landy, like, come on, guys, it isn't could have gone to a really dark We could have ended that by being like, so all things considered pretty good movie and Kaylin, through the power of Alfred Millinez like then let's remember Reinfortunate and we're just like, yeah, yeah, Kayla, you're right, you're right, You're right. I am wearing the shirt that Jamie designed for Super Hockey Alfred Molina my one true love. So hopefully it comes back one day. Well fingers crossed. Princess, where can we find you on online? Tell us where to find you? There's a million places to find You'll let them know if I'm not seducing people by the pool. I am on Twitter at the Weeks Princess, and then I am on YouTube as Princess Weeks, and I also have podcasts now. I did the It's Lit on a Bridge podcast for PBS and I currently co host the Netflix Gee podcast with Tessa Netting. We got to interview Neil Gaiman ever heard of him? Um for Sandman and like a lot of really fun talent. And yeah, it's just a pleasure to be to be seen, be heard and be part of feminist history. By being part of the Bechtel Cast, we are kind of legendaries. I mean, we're not Stephen Peters, but you know, we just rival Peter Stevens. We're working on it. You guys will get there, I mean, like you will age and that's really all it takes to become here. We will become progressively more and more out of touch with the youth of today. We will achieve Stephen Peters level of cognitive dissonance about what teen girls are like. Actually that might not be positive, but you can help us get to that that legend status by you know, just ris up following us on social media Twitter and Instagram at Bechtel Cast. Why don't you, you know, follow us and subscribe on whatever podcast platform and write and review us while you're at us. Give us five nipples. And then there's also, of course our Patreon a k a. Matreon, where we cover two bonus episodes every single month. Plus you get access to the back catalog and you'll hear such episodes as Saw and others came over Slam. So check that out at patreon dot com slash spectel cast. It's five dollars a month, well spent. Hell yes, um, you can also get our merchant t public dot com slash the back dol Cast will have new merch coming out soon. Look. Oh, my critics will say, I haven't designed new merchant three years. Well get I've just been cooking up some little ideas, so don't worry about it. Be fine, I can't wait. Well, I'll have Kevin's bacon. But it's Kevin the Minion. It's no, I'm not doing port I trust me. There there's nothing left to be said in the world of sexualized minions. I have nothing to add to the conversation. It's been exhausted. She's exhausted. I'm I'm tired. Their cheeks are in the movie. We should have minions merch. It doesn't need to be sexy. We should have minions merch. Um. So I just got a sidetracked by the possibilities. Princess, please come back. I will. I will take something even scarier than this. Oh my goodness, I mean this is gonna be hard to top. But boy, howdy will I try well with that? Um? Hey, be good, be good. To quote famous character Bill Murray, bye bye, bye bye,