AvTalk Episode 194: What do you do on a 13 hour test flight?

AVT 194 Transcript
EPISODE 194
[EPISODE]
[0:00:07] IP: Hello, and welcome to episode 194 of AvTalk. I am Ian Petchenik, here, as always
with –
[0:00:15] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Hello Ian. How are you?
[0:00:17] IP: I'm well, Jason. How are you, sir, is the is the real question?
[0:00:22] JR: I am good. I am currently in St. Maarten. It's dark out now, so I can't see any
airplanes. But I am in one of my happy places.
[0:00:31] IP: You are close to the airplanes, no matter if you can see them or not.
[0:00:35] JR: That's true. They are there. They're sleeping, but they're there.
[0:00:37] IP: They're sleeping. Well, that's good. I appreciate you've been gracious enough to
keep me regaled with photos and some videos throughout the day today. I do appreciate that on
your part. How is St. Maarten? I mean, is it fully recovered? Because after the hurricane a few
years ago, the beach was gone, the hotels were in disarray. Things have come back to a certain
extent still, is the way to go?
[0:01:07] JR: Yeah. Yeah, I'm staying at the Sonesta Ocean Point, which is the resort right by
the airport. I think, they tried to reopen March 2020, actually. Not the greatest of timings.
[0:01:18] IP: Great timing. Great timing.
[0:01:19] JR: Yeah, they went straight from being obliterated by a hurricane to being obliterated
by COVID. Now they bounced back. They're doing well. The whole place is totally
reconstructed. I don't know if the rest of the island is faring quite as well, but the beach is back.
A little road there. The airport itself is on its way back. I think they should be done sometime
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next year. Right now, if there are jet bridges, they're not in use. There are several gates where
there just are no jet bridges. Is just a hole in the wall. It's very much still a temporary operation in
the terminal while they piece it back together. I think, they should be coming along to finishing it
next year.
[0:02:01] IP: Excellent. That's good to hear. It’s like, I don't know, on the shortlist of av geek
things to do in life, that's the, I think, one of the biggest that I regret not doing sooner, when the
747 was still flying there on a regular basis.
[0:02:24] JR: Yeah, it's pretty great. It's a place where most people, whether they are an av
geek or not, they will stop and look at the planes, mostly because it's just fascinating to watch
them. Secondly, because they're actually quite loud. They've been doing takeoffs in the other
direction. Takeoffs where they take off over the beach and over the ocean, which is I'm not
going to say rare, or unusual, but it's been far more common than I've seen in my last visits
here. Today, I was standing on the curb at the road at the very end of the runway and a JetBlue
A321 and a Delta 757 took off in that direction. It's just really fun to watch them come right at
you and take off right over your head. It's pretty unique. Not the only place in the world you can
get that, but it's one of the most unique.
[0:03:11] IP: I always find it interesting that the places where that happens are all pretty much
like resort, or airports or airports where people go to go on vacation. I'm thinking of Corfu.
There's another one in southern Europe, where you can basically touch the aircraft as they
come. I always thought that was interesting that people go on vacation and they can go get real
close to planes.
[0:03:41] JR: Oh, yeah. It's fun. One of the arrivals today, I think it was a PC-12. No. I think it
was actually an SR22 was remarkably low, to the point where even the locals and things, but
damn, that was low. If the locals are remarking about the aircraft that they see happen a 100
time today, it was low.
[0:03:58] IP: It was low. Well, good. I'm glad you're having a good time. I'm glad that our
recording worked out this week, because there's a lot of news. Last week, we had a very busy
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AVT 194 Transcript
week. We went to Sweden, you came back, I came back a few days after you. That was all
good and fun. Then we found out about United Airlines ordering a massive number of planes.
[0:04:27] JR: All of them, I think.
[0:04:28] IP: They've ordered all of Boeing's planes. Every single one they said, “We'll take one
of each.” The largest wide-body order in US airline history. 100 firm orders, plus 100 options for
787s, with delivery beginning in 2024, continuing through 2032. United has ordered 787s. We
don't know how they’ll break those down between the 8, 9 and 10.
[0:05:02] JR: Well, United doesn't know at this point either. They specifically said, “We're going
to decide this later. We don't need to figure that out now, because some of these planes are
going to be delivered so far in the future, that we're just ordering the 787 tight.”
[0:05:16] IP: Yes. We also don't yet know which engines will be on the aircraft. Up until now, the
United 787 fleet has been powered by GE. But there's a decent chance, it sounds like, that
Rolls Royce could in fact compete for this, or at least a portion of this order.
[0:05:40] JR: That would be interesting. The 787s that United is going eventually take delivery
of, whether it's 100 or 200, these aircraft are slated to replace the older 777s in United’s fleet, so
I’m all of which are the 200s, some of the original Pratt and Whitney domestic aircraft they have
and some of the older ERs. Also, I'm sure there are lots of people who won't want to hear this
and won't want to accept it, but also, every single 767 in United's fleet will be gone by 2030.
Yes, that includes the 767-400, of which United is half of the operators in the world of that type.
[0:06:22] IP: A third. They are a third.
[0:06:25] JR: Who's the other?
[0:06:26] IP: There's the 767-400ER BBJ that's operated –
[0:06:31] JR: Oh, that doesn’t count.
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[0:06:34] IP: Oh, come on. We got to count it. Because it's just such an oddball. Is it the Sultan
of Brunei?
[0:06:40] JR: I think so. But that doesn't count. Practically speaking. Well, the only airlines
operating right now.
[0:06:45] IP: Okay, fine. Fine, fine.
[0:06:46] JR: United didn’t go still. The only airlines are United and Delta. But yes, all 767s as
of right now, will be retired by United in 2030. I am, of course, I’m very sad about this, because it
really spells the end of, let's say, comfortable seating layouts on United. Those will be gone
entirely.
[0:07:06] IP: You don't need to go with a seven abreast 787?
[0:07:11] JR: Well, I'm currently working on JAL in a couple of months. They're one of the only
two airlines left in the world having that. I don't even know if ANA does that anymore. I don't
think United's going to do that.
[0:07:22] IP: Probably not. 3-3-3 seating coming to a 787 delivered to United near you,
probably. The other news that we got, which will, I think, come as a shock to no one. Maybe two
or three people. They've deferred the A350 order again. We'll find out if they'll eventually,
maybe, probably at some point could cancel the order and put it out of its misery.
[0:07:49] JR: Yes. They said, those are deferred until at least 2030, if ever. I would suspect at
this point, the never is probably more likely, but that is nothing new. 2030 at current, but don't
hold them to that.
[0:08:02] IP: That's the massive, massive order news coming out this week.
[0:08:08] JR: But wait, there's more.
[0:08:10] IP: But wait, there's more. Jason, tell me more.
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[0:08:12] JR: Well, I don't have the numbers in front of me, because I can't navigate away from
the recording screen right now on my phone. United said, “You know what? While we're here
with Boeing, why don't we act on some options we had for the 737,” which I think it was 46 or
something. You know what? Why don’t I top that off?
[0:08:31] IP: I do have the numbers in front of me. I do have the numbers in front of me. 44
MAX options and those options –
[0:08:38] JR: Oh, I was so close.
[0:08:39] IP: You were so close. The numbers all add up to a 100, so it makes it nice and easy.
44 MAX options with deliveries between 2024 and 2026. Then 56 firm orders with delivery.
Yeah, 56 additional firm orders for delivery between 2027 and 2028. I mean, what's crazy to me
is that they'll have 44 additional options. Those aircraft are now option, but they are firm orders
now. Delivery over three years, so 24, 25, 26. Then they said, “You know what? We need
another 56 aircraft over the next two years, by 2028.” They're going to take between 2024 and
2028, over four years, they're going to take delivery of a 100 new 737 MAX aircraft.
[0:09:33] JR: It's pretty crazy, since a lot of this actually isn't fleet replacement. Yes, United has
a lot of older aircraft, but they, I believe, they're only exiting about 100 of their older narrowbody
aircraft. Because the whole fleet refurbishment project that has not yet actually kicked off at
United, they're going to be refurbishing the interiors of their A319, A320, 73-700, 800, 900, led
into the ER. A lot of these MAXs are actually expansion of United's fleet, not just replacement of
older fleet types, like you see a lot of the times with some of these larger orders.
[0:10:09] IP: With this order, United will – With the combined 787 and 737 MAX order this week,
United will take delivery of 700 new aircraft by 2032.
[0:10:25] JR: That's across the 787 and –
[0:10:28] IP: That’s every single new aircraft they have coming to the airline, including the
Airbus A321s.
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[0:10:34] JR: Yeah, about those. There are only what? Like 45 of those on order. I don't think
it's much.
[0:10:40] IP: Yeah. That's going to be more of a niche aircraft, but it still factors into the massive
number. The massive, massive number of aircraft they're going to take by the turn of the next
century. They've got 70 A321neos on order. They announced that they're set to – they're
expected to take those sometime beginning next year, or early part of next year.
[0:11:13] JR: Not if Airbus's production schedule has anything to say about that.
[0:11:17] IP: Well, and that becomes a thing. 700 new aircraft are scheduled to be delivered by
2032. At the current rate between Airbus’s production issues between Boeing's production
issues, when all these aircraft get delivered is really the big question.
[0:11:36] JR: I mean, I think I read today that Airbus might pause production for months to let
the supply chain catch up. I don't remember where I read that, or if that's even true. Just the
mere fact that they're even talking about something like that is pretty remarkable.
[0:11:50] IP: Yeah. I mean, I think that at this point, they have to figure out what to do to get
things back on track. How they do that, whether it's a production pause, or finding a way to help
suppliers meet their demand to continue raising and raising and raising and raising rates, that's
a big one. I mean, if you look at the delivery schedule for the 56 MAX orders with delivery
between 2027-2028. Over two years, so you're looking at what? 28 aircraft per year at Boeing's
proposed rates, they could fill the United order in two months.
[0:12:37] JR: Yeah. I don't see that happening. Shockingly, Boeing does have other customers
with airline orders to fulfill.
[0:12:43] IP: Right. What I'm saying is, there's going to be a continued stretch.
[0:12:47] JR: It’s theoretically possible. Yeah.
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[0:12:49] IP: There's going to be continued stretch in the supply.
[0:12:51] JR: Right. United did say in their release that they expect to take two to three aircraft
deliveries per week, in the years 2024 and 2025, I believe. It's a ridiculous number of aircraft, on
paper being delivered to them right now. We'll see what happens, but they are very confident
seemingly at this point that everything will happen as expected. As we've seen in the last couple
of years, nothing will happen as expected.
[0:13:21] IP: Speaking of nothing happening, as expected, Boom announced that they will
partner with a trio of companies to, instead of finding an engine for their proposed overture
supersonic jet, they will in fact design and build one with those companies themselves. They're
saying that –
[0:13:49] JR: A trio of companies? What is it? Like, Rolls Royce, Pratt and Whitney and CFM?
[0:13:55] IP: Good guesses, but all mostly wrong. The three companies that are partnering with
Boom to create what they're calling the symphony engine for the overture aircraft. We're getting
really heavy handed into the classical music references, but we'll take what we can get, I guess.
You have Florida turbine technologies for engine design. GE additive, which is a division of GE
Aviation, for additive technology design consulting and standard aero for engine maintenance.
Standard aero as an MRO, and they will contribute maintenance and associated maintenance
related activities to Boom’s design.
Three companies coming together-ish with Boom, to build an engine. The specs that Boom is
offering on the symphony engine, a medium bypass turbofan with the same basic architecture
that powers all commercial aircraft. But this new propulsion system “will include a Boom-
designed axi-symmetric supersonic intake, a variable geometry, low-noise exhaust nozzle and a
passive-cooled high-pressure turbine.” 35,000 pounds at takeoff optimized for 100% sustainable
aviation fuel, of course. Single-stage fan design for quiet operation, passively cooled high-
pressure turbine, listed again, the additive GE additive comes in here with the additive
manufacturing for low-weight, low part count and reduced assembly costs. Of course, it
complies with all sorts of FAA and IASA part 33 requirements.
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[0:15:49] JR: All this somehow, and the entry into service date is not pushed back at all.
[0:15:57] IP: Maybe.
[0:15:57] JR: Well, they said the first flight is pushed back by what? Six months, or something,
which is immaterial. But the entry to service they did, I think they still said, it's 2029, which
seems even more than usually impractical. Or not impossible, but just it's not going to happen.
[0:16:16] IP: As we as we all know, certifying an aircraft takes a few minutes, especially in the
US, given the FAA’s redoubling of its stringent application of certification requirements. Boom
now says that it is “on track to achieve type certification in 2029.” The target language has
changed. The date stays the same, but the target language has changed a little bit. Achieve
type certification, not necessarily enter service. The goalposts are continuing to shift as we
expected they would, given the fact that no person with any sense of how long it takes to certify
an aircraft, believed that the 2029 number was still a reasonable and good answer to what was
happening here.
[0:17:12] JR: Well, sure. But type certification is what the last and nearly final step before
entering to service, right? That's the real major hurdle. The rest of the way is getting acceptance
to the airline and getting the airline trained up on it. The goalposts may have changed.
Ultimately, type certification is the most troublesome, time consuming part of the plan.
[0:17:33] IP: Yeah. No, don't get me wrong, that that's still, I think, an unbelievably optimistic
target. I'm just saying that they are subtly shifting that language again. I think as things
progress, we'll continue to see the language subtly shift over and over and over again, because
I’m still firmly rooted in the belief that this is – until I see the actual airplane flying the actual
airplane, not a demonstrator, or not anything like, but the actual airplane flying actual entrance.
[0:18:08] JR: By the way, the demonstrator still hasn't flown.
[0:18:11] IP: True. Also, true. I think that this is worth discussing, but only for the next five
seconds. Jason, final word.
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[0:18:24] JR: I got nothing. Let's move on.
[0:18:25] IP: Moving on. The FAA, speaking of certification requirements, the FAA issued its
final ruling on the Airbus A321XLR this week, regarding what Airbus has to do to ensure that the
A321XLR can be certified based on its current design. Because the A321XR has a special fuel
tank in the rear center of the aircraft, where you would normally have cargo capacity. That
doesn't exist, because there's a giant fuel tank there.
[0:19:08] JR: Yeah, that's what literally puts the X in the XLR.
[0:19:12] IP: Exactly. There was concern, perhaps, I don't know whether it was righteous
concern, but there was concern, especially among Boeing, they were the one that pointed – the
ones that really pointed this out to the FAA, looking at the designs for the Airbus A321XLR,
Boeing said, “Hey, this is different.” Because what it is is the rear center tank is actually part of
the fuselage. The outer skin of the fuselage forms part of the tank wall, forms the bottom and
part of the sides of the tank wall.
The FAA said, we didn't really think anybody would do this. We thought people just put fuel
tanks in the aircraft. We didn't really consider them making the aircraft fuselage part of the tank.
Now, we have to figure this out. They issued the requirement that the insulation to keep the
passengers nice and cozy, as opposed to the fuel, which doesn't need to be kept as cozy has to
be very, very, very, very flame resistant, so as to mitigate any impact from fire in the event of any
crash. A big step, because this is one of the things that Airbus has been waiting for, so that they
can progress with the A321 flight tests. Speaking of A321XLR flight tests, Jason go ahead.
[0:20:40] JR: You beat me to it. You beat me to it. I was going to mention, didn't that plane just
do something fun this week?
[0:20:44] IP: It absolutely did. Airbus took its A321XLR on a 13-hour journey over nine countries
in Europe, and the Bay of Biscay, where they drew a very, very large XLR in the sky as part of
that 13-hour flight test. We said to Airbus, “Hey, what was that all about?” They said, “Do you
want to talk to somebody who knows actually what they're talking about and can explain all of
these things?” We said, “Yes.” They found this Jim Fawcett, who is the lead flight test engineer.
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We're going to hear from Jim and he's going to explain what the flight test was actually all about.
It wasn't just drawing the XLR in the sky. We'll learn more about the A321XLR program from
him. Stay tuned, we'll be right back with Jim Fawcett.
[JIM FAWCETT]
[0:21:45] IP: We're fortunate enough to be joined now by Jim Fawcett, who is lead flight test
engineer at Airbus in Toulouse, and was onboard the A321XLR 13-hour flight test this week.
Jim, thank you so much for taking the time after such a long test flight to speak with us. I'd like
to start with the question that I know I had and one that I know a lot of our users and readers
had across social media and the like. What were you doing up there for 13 hours? I know that it
wasn't just to draw the XLR. What was the flight test purpose of this flight?
[0:22:19] JF: Well, first and foremost, the aim of this test flight was to look at the way in which
the fuel system behaves on the 321XLR. We've made some modifications on this aircraft. It was
important to check that those work correctly over the full flight envelope of the aircraft. We
wanted to start with a full fuel tank, and check that right down to the minimum required fuel for
landing, according to the regulations that everything works nominally. I'm delighted to say that
that was the case. All of the transfers worked correctly. All of the indications to the crew were
good. All of the transfer rates were nominal.
It was very important for us to perform a long flight to check that. It also gave us the chance to
check whether the thermal model of the fuel system was correct. When the aircraft spends a
long time and up in altitude, it cools down the aircraft and therefore, the fuel system. We wanted
to be certain that there was no misbehavior. Once again, I'm delighted to say that everything
was very positive on that side as well.
[0:23:12] IP: 13 hours is a long flight, no matter how you look at it. What's happening onboard
the aircraft during the flight? What are the pilots doing? Obviously, besides flying the aircraft.
What are you as a flight test engineer, what are you working on during that long flight? I
imagine, there's a bit of downtime throughout the flight?
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[0:23:32] JF: Well, it's an interesting question. Because this flight was a little bit unusual. It was
split into two parts. We took advantage of having the aircraft in the air anyway, to be able to
write the XLR logo in the sky. Although, we were monitoring the fuel system during that part of
the flight, it was a chance for the pilots to show off their technical skills by flying that logo
manually. We had a lot of challenges for them in that test zone yesterday, because there were
some very strong winds and some turbulence, and they were having to fly the aircraft manually
to perform the tight turns required to draw the logo. For that first three hours of the flight, the
pilots were very busy.
In the second part of the flight, where we performed our long loop over Europe, they were able
to operate the aircraft in a more classic way, just like any airline crew would do. Performing their
typical flying, navigating and communicating tasks. That's for the pilots. In terms of the
engineers, well, we were monitoring the fuel system throughout. I was joined by other
colleagues as well, who were looking at other systems onboard the aircraft, because we wanted
to get as much benefit from this flight as possible. We were looking at things like the noise
environment in the aircraft, the passenger comfort. We were looking at the good behavior of the
toilets and the water system over a long duration to make sure there's no problems with
freezing, for example. Took a look at a lot of other different systems to make sure that they were
working well also.
For the engineers, there's a great deal of monitoring the systems, monitoring parameters,
looking at what they're doing. Amongst all that, we had to take time for some rest. We wanted to
make sure that our pilots, we had three pilots were rotating, the same for the engineers. Also,
we're getting some food and drink. You can imagine, we drank a lot of coffee during those 13
hours yesterday.
[0:25:03] IP: Absolutely. Knowing how much the aviation industry runs on a good pot of coffee, I
can only imagine. One of the things that I wanted to ask about was the drawing of the XLR and
the small portion of the X that was missing, because the aircraft was only broadcasting in Mode-
S. Why did you take the decision not to broadcast in ADSB and only broadcast in Mode-S?
[0:25:28] JF: Our aircraft are all technically capable of broadcasting the ADSB signal. However,
at this stage in Europe, it's not an obligation to carry ADSB. It will become a mandate later on in
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2023. It's important for us to check that for customers who decide not to take this option for
whatever reason, they may not be flying in an airspace where it's mandated, that the aircraft still
works correctly and is well integrated within the air traffic control system. That was a choice on
our part to deliberately not activate it yesterday. The slight downside, obviously, only having
Mode-S coverages that once we got to the range of the maximum range of the ground radars, it
appeared that the part of the logo we were drawing was a little bit limited. We've got internal
data, which shows that we did actually fly the whole XLR logo, so it will become available in due
course.
[0:26:14] IP: When I'm going to be on an aircraft for 13 hours, I'm loading up my iPad with
movies, or I'm shopping for a good book. I think most importantly, I'm trying to figure out what
snacks I want to bring for the journey in between meal services. Is the crew on a 13-hour test
flight, are you packing your own sandwiches?
[0:26:32] JF: Yeah. Some people do like to bring their own personal favorites. Maybe they bring
a flask of their favorite tea, or some fresh fruit, or chocolate bars, whatever. When we know we
have a long flight coming up, we can prepare for it. First of all, in advance, it's important for the
crew to be in good shape when they fly. We make sure we’re rested before we go flying. Then if
we know that there are parts of the flight, which might be a bit calmer, we can perhaps bring
additional work to do. We could be preparing future test flight, or writing a report from a previous
test flight, that kind of thing.
There's also, as I mentioned previously, a requirement to have time onboard to rest, to make
sure the crew carry on being in good shape throughout the flight. Yeah, there's a lot of
preparation which goes on. In terms of what we get onboard, I mentioned the coffee. But
actually, we can order catering just like any airline would. I can tell you yesterday, we had a vast
quantity of croissant first thing in the morning, then we had a nice meal of chicken, or fish
according to the preference at lunchtime. By the end of the day, we were very much on the
chocolate bars to keep us going until we landed back in Toulouse.
[0:27:30] IP: Coffee and chocolate bars is really the best way to get through any flight. I wanted
to ask you about flightradar24, actually, or the people using flightradar24. At one point, as you
were completing the XLR drawing, nearly 50,000 people were following the flight. Then in total,
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about a 100,000 people followed at least a part of the flight. Is it strange knowing that there are
thousands of people following along in real time?
[0:27:59] JF: Yeah, this was really interesting for us. We imagined that people might be
interested in it, but we didn't actually have on this particular test aircraft connectivity solution,
allowing us to look in real-time at what was happening on flightradar24. The only clue that we
could get was from comments we were receiving from various people we spoke to throughout
the day. For example, for the early part of the flight, the fuel system specialists at our design
offices in the UK were following us via telemetry link. They were all commenting on the
increasing number of people following us on flightradar24, as it became clear what we were
doing.
The air traffic controllers, even though they're not allowed to look at flightradar24 was there
working. Those who are coming on to shift and starting working with us were all saying, “Hi,
Airbus XLR. You're the guys flying around Europe,” and making some really positive comments
about it. When we landed back in Toulouse, the very last controller we spoke to, the tag
controller in Toulouse, he said, “You've just done your 13-hour flight and you’ve drawn that
wonderful picture. I saw it on flightradar24 before I left home, and I just like to say, well done. I
hope you get a good night's sleep.”
We understood that there was something going on. It was a very indirect way of us learning it. It
was really only when we got back to our offices and turned on our computers that we could see
the level of interest that had been shown in the flight. It was great to have that shared by
flightradar24 and the community of people who follow their activities.
[0:29:18] IP: It was great to see everyone following along and cheering the flight and noticing,
“Oh, it's been in the air 10 hours, 12 hours, 13 hours. When are they going to land?” As you
were waiting to burn off enough fuel to be able to come in and complete the flight. I thought that
was really great. After this long 13-hour test flight, what is next for the A321XLR program?
[0:29:44] JF: This flight test was as mentioned, a contributor to the certification of the aircraft.
We have to demonstrate the normal operation of the aircraft over long periods of time and the
fuel system in particular. We'll continue with those certification, or development and certification
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checks through the whole of next year. Very early on next year, you probably see some of our
aircraft flying to some unusual destinations, because we need to go and check the performance
of the aircraft in cold weather conditions. After that, we'll continue to work on all of the different
systems of the aircraft. It's a very intensive effort on several different systems of the aircraft,
which have been modified. We'll be working hard on that next year.
[0:30:21] IP: Jim Fawcett is lead flight test engineer on the development flight test team at
Airbus. He was onboard the A321XLR 13-hour test flight that drew the giant XLR in the sky. He
has been kind enough to share a little bit more about the A321XLR program, and what goes on
during these test flights. Jim, thank you so much for joining us.
[0:30:46] JF: You're welcome. Have a great day.
[BREAK]
[0:30:53] IP: Welcome back. I thought that Jim's explanation of testing out the fuel system, you
have to fill up the tanks and you have to empty the tanks. On a plane with that much fuel
capacity, it takes 13 hours.
[0:31:08] JR: Again, the X in the XLR. Extra long flight.
[0:31:11] IP: The X in the XLR. Yeah. I mean, hopefully we'll see it over here. I assume they're
off to Canada for the cold weather testing, as they usually do. Hopefully, we'll see it over in the
Chicago area, when they do the icing testing, because they often use Milwaukee for their base
for that. Hopefully, we'll see it soon. Let's see, today, Delta held its earnings calls. I mean, the
big news, as far as this particular podcast is concerned is that Delta is getting rid of its 50 seat-
aircraft by summer of 2023.
[0:31:47] JR: Mixed feelings on that one. Obviously, happy as a passenger that we won’t have
to endure 50-seat CRJs anymore, because I know Delta has quite a number of them still
operating, particularly out of the MSP hub in Minneapolis. I think there are quite a number of
cities in that particular region that are served by the CRJ-200s.
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As Seth Miller pointed out as well, this is a blessing for people who despise the aircraft, but also
a curse for cities and airports that are really only served by the CRJ-200. Delta does not have a
50-seat equivalent to what United has with the CRJ-550, where they take a 700, sprinkle some
fairy dust on it and it turns into a 50-seat regional. Delta doesn't have that. Any city that's
currently served by a 50-seat regional jet, it's either going to be upgauged to a 70-plus seater, or
it's going to lose service entirely. That's going to hurt some communities. I wouldn't be surprised
if a number of cities end up losing service with Delta, or Delta is just going to have to bite the
bullet and serve them with that larger aircraft that they probably don't quite need.
[0:32:55] IP: Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how they feel. I mean, because you know, as I've
pointed out there, there are quite a few cities, especially within not quite driving time of the
Minneapolis hub, where those 50-seat aircraft are good utility aircraft, versus they might not be
the best passenger experience, but they exist.
[0:33:21] JR: They get you there. That's important.
[0:33:22] IP: They get you there.
[0:33:23] JR: There is no equivalent to that aircraft. Not at least in Delta's fleet plans in the
future. It is a gap. In this country, we are adverse to turboprops for some reason, so there's
really nothing of that size category that Delta will have in its fleet. It's just a big hole. Same
would go for American, but American’s taking on CRJ-200s at this point, ironically enough.
[0:33:49] IP: The world is topsy-turvy, my friend.
[0:33:50] JR: It is. Win some, lose some. If you're a Delta passenger, and you're still going to
have your flights to wherever you want to go, you won't be on a CRJ-200 anymore, which is
great, if you're an American passenger. Sorry.
[0:34:05] IP: Some other news this week as far as aircraft go, China Eastern on Friday took
delivery of the first C919. Look for that to enter service sometime soon. Be interesting to see
how quickly they can take delivery of a few of them to really put them into service. I'm keen to
hear what the aircraft is like from a passenger perspective, because so far we've gotten the
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unprecedented look at first flights and when they livestream the first flight from the flight deck,
that was pretty cool.
[0:34:40] JR: That was wild, wasn't it? But we do have some photos and information about the
interior of the China Eastern aircraft, C919 interior. It's very modern aircraft. I think, it's two by
two, or I'm sorry, three seating, done back in economy and two-two upfront. It looks like any
other Delta, or United, or American Airbus. They have first class style seating, like you see in the
US and then regular economy down back. I think this story probably deserves more of our time.
Honestly, I don't know what else to say until it enters service and we get a feeling for how the
aircraft performs. This is obviously not the first Chinese manufactured aircraft to be put into
service. This is the real deal. First of all, was more of a beta test with the ARJ21, was it? No.
[0:35:34] IP: Yes.
[0:35:35] JR: Yeah, the ARJ21. It was kind of that CRJ-700 and the 80 weird clone hybrid,
disgusting thing. Not commercially successful. It was more of a, I would call it a tech
demonstrator for Chinese built aircraft in comeback. The 919 has the potential to be a very
popular aircraft in China and potentially abroad, dare I say. I know we've talked about this with
Jon Ostrower before, but only time will tell.
[0:36:02] IP: Only time will tell. Speaking of time, this is going back in time. Emirates is opening
up new city ticketing offices, which I didn't see coming.
[0:36:14] JR: That's fun. City ticket offices were obviously hugely popular before the Internet. It
is a place where you could go in a city to buy tickets for an airline, or I guess, in some cases,
tour packages, or just get general customer service. There are still ticket offices, I believe, Air
France and some of the French airlines have ticket offices throughout France. There are
definitely a smattering of others throughout the world, but they used to be quite popular. It looks
Emirates is looking at least with their city ticket office in Dubai to make it more of an experience
center.
You can go see their Premium Economy seat and you can do some VR, AR nonsense, who
cares? They’re looking to expand their city ticket office operations into other cities, where
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someone could presumably go and book a flight and use monies to pay for in person. I like this
ticket office, not ticket offices, but travel agencies are still very popular, widely used throughout
Europe. It seems like, yeah, it was a flat circle, seeing airlines opening this back up. It's
interesting that it's Emirates, but I like it.
[0:37:25] IP: Yeah. I mean, I would love to go check one out and see what it's all about.
[0:37:30] JR: You could have as recently as March 2020, United had a ticket office in New York,
in Penn Station of all places. You could have gone there and talk to a reservation agent and
booked a flight right there, while you wait for your delayed Amtrak train.
[0:37:46] IP: I'm done with the train. I'm going on the plane. A few things before we leave this
week. Confirmation that Air India's 777LRs are indeed ex-Delta. Pretty sure, we knew this going
in from the start. We have confirmation given that the first one was delivered last week, or a little
over a week ago. There's that.
[0:38:14] JR: It’s nice. Yes, they have the Delta interior and all that and hopefully, knock on
wood that they keep them in one piece. They also announced, and I know we talked about this
recently, that they're going to dump 400 million euros into refurbishing their existing widebody
aircraft, which we talked about, are in dire need of refurbishment. They're also hinting at a
major, major aircraft order. Not quite as large as United’s recent order, but I don't think we have
any actual firm details yet. I wouldn't be surprised if we're talking about it this time next week.
[0:38:44] IP: Yeah. It sounds like, it's going to be a big one. Details as of yet are still scarce.
This week in Toulouse, Condor’s first A330neo, the A330neo that is in the Green Beach Towel
livery.
[0:39:00] JR: Oh, was it delivered?
[0:39:02] IP: It was not. Well, it was delivered into a building. There was an unfortunate incident.
[0:39:07] JR: That’s one way to do it.
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[0:39:09] IP: Yeah, there was an unfortunate incident where the aircraft was tugged into the
side of a building.
[0:39:14] JR: Was it the delivery building?
[0:39:16] IP: I don't think it was the delivery building. It didn't look like the delivery building. It
looked like just one of the other buildings really. But the aircraft sustained some damage to its
right wing, enough that they had to deal with a fuel leak. No word on yet, how substantial the
damage is, or whether this pushes back delivery of their first A330neo. Because they have two
there on the ground. I don't know if they'll swap one for the other in order to take delivery on
time. It'll be interesting to see what happened.
[0:39:51] JR: A ground collision before the aircraft is even delivered is not a great start. We
have seen worse for new Airbus aircraft before they have even been delivered.
[0:40:02] IP: Somebody mentioned that this week.
[0:40:06] JR: Yeah. We have seen far worse. If you know, you know. But I guess, we can just
say, years ago, Airbus had a major incident with an Airbus A340-500 in Etihad colors, I believe.
[0:40:20] IP: I can't remember if it was a five or six, but we'll – We'll have a link to the aftermath
of that incident in the show notes.
[0:40:28] JR: Yes. Long story short, they were doing an engine run-up, something went wrong
with the brakes, or they didn't properly secure the aircraft and it drove itself off an embankment
and snapped into two pieces. The aircraft, obviously, never flew for the airline. It could be worse.
[0:40:46] IP: It could be worse. We close the show on, I guess, bittersweet news. Mostly bitter,
but a little sweet. The NASA 747SP SOFIA telescope, the Strategic Observatory for Infrared
Astronomy is officially retired. It flew this week from its home in Palmdale, California, down to
the Pima Air and Space Museum in Arizona. I say bittersweet, because I'm bitter that the
science was not funded and it hasn't continued to fly and I didn't get to fly on it ever. It's sweet,
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because it's going to museums, so you'll be able to visit it at Pima after they get everything all
set up.
[0:41:34] JR: Yeah. If you need it anymore excuse to go visit Pima, you should probably go
now. They have taken delivery of a whole host of new aircraft since I was there in probably
2015. I think there’s a 787 there even.
[0:41:44] IP: Yeah. They've got they've got some really great stuff. Commercial military. They've
got some weird stuff there. It's really worth visiting. Definitely one of the, if not the best outdoor
aviation museums in the world.
[0:42:03] JR: That doesn't even count for the military side, which isn't even in that part of the
museum. It's its own separate thing, I believe.
[0:42:09] IP: Yeah, yeah.
[0:42:11] JR: The military boneyard, the tours leave through there, but it's a whole other wild
thing. If you happen to find yourself in the Arizona desert, highly recommend a visit to Pima,
now that the SOFIA telescope 747 is there. If you are waiting for an excuse for some reason,
now is the time.
[0:42:30] IP: Now you've got one. Well, Jason, I shall not keep you any longer from the beach
at St. Maarten, though you did mention it was dark. Be careful out the dark beach, or go rest up
so that you can look at more airplanes tomorrow.
[0:42:45] JR: Thank you.
[0:42:46] IP: There you go. I'm glad we got to record this episode, because it was touch and go,
whether we would be able to make it work, and we did. I'm glad that happened. This has been
episode 194. We're closing in on 200. We should figure out what we're going to do for –
[0:43:01] JR: We should start planning.
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AVT 194 Transcript
[0:43:02] IP: - episode 200. Next week is episode 195. That will be our last new episode for the
year. Then in the last week of the year, we'll have an episode that recaps what we talked about
this year, some of our best conversations. If you have a favorite conversation that you think we
should include in that episode, email us at podcast@fr24.com. Let us know what has been your
favorite conversation and episode so far this year, and we'll see if we can get it included in that
episode coming up in two weeks. Until next week, I am Ian Petchenik, here as always with –
[0:43:40] JR: Jason Rabinowitz. Thanks for listening.
[END]
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