Golf Architecture Mailbag: Exciting New Courses, the Yale Restoration, and the State of the Industry

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset.

00:00:02
Speaker 2: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. And when I find my ball.

00:00:06
Speaker 1: In a bride egg Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg Frida Egg, Frida egg brid Egg Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the hump course. Welcome to the FRIDAYGG Golf Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and today my co host Andy Johnson will join me for a golf architecture mail bag. You sent us a bunch of questions about golf course design, and we will answer some.

00:00:50
Speaker 2: Of them, not all of them, not.

00:00:52
Speaker 1: All of them. Let's do our traditional opening segment first in and out, where we talk about what we're in on and what we're out on this week. Andy Johnson, what are you in on?

00:01:02
Speaker 3: You know, I think I probably went full three hundred or one eighty on this topic, but I actually watching Sunday at the Zurich with the alternate shot blustray conditions, I've somehow worked myself back in on this event. I think that there's a place for a little bit of team golf.

00:01:19
Speaker 2: Now.

00:01:19
Speaker 3: Does the tour need to rework how it works in the schedule where it is in the schedule. Frankly, I think the problem with the event is that it's it's this one outlier event in a in a forty five event schedule, and then also that it gives awards the same amount of FedEx Cup points to the winners as an individual win, which to be just doesn't seem really right. But like, the alternate shot was really fun to watch. I think alternate shots the only real team format in golf. It is when you're playing alternate shot and you're trying to win something, you and your partner absolutely are a team. And I don't think that there's any other format in golf that really creates that that feeling where you know, I said this on the Shotgun start, but I think like so many of the best players in the world love golf, and when you ask them like why did you play golf, so many of their answers like, you know, I love that there's a sport that I didn't have to depend on my teammates. An alternate shot you have to depend on your teammates. It's a great format and we should we should see more of it outside of maybe twice a year.

00:02:29
Speaker 1: You know, we don't plan this segment ahead of time. Literally in my notes here I have I am in on alternate Shot.

00:02:37
Speaker 2: I didn't know what. I didn't know what.

00:02:39
Speaker 3: I didn't know what we were doing in and out. I that was what I decided to come up with on the spot.

00:02:46
Speaker 1: We always do in and out for the.

00:02:48
Speaker 2: For the first show this mailbag, what's gonna be it?

00:02:51
Speaker 1: You're, you're, you're, you're, you're traveling. It's a you're, you're all discombobulated. But I had no intention of watching this tournament on Sunday, but I just got sucked in by alternate shot. And it's what you say, uh, there are there? There is this weird interpersonal dynamic to alternate shot between the players. Every shot has stakes because not only could it not turn out well for the player who's hitting the shot, but it could also not turn out well for the guy who has to hit the ball from that position. And that just introduces this wonderful, sometimes awkward dynamic between the players that I just get a real kick out of. You know, Martin Trainer's implosion on the playoff hole today we're recording this on Sunday, by the way.

00:03:37
Speaker 2: Talking about I mean it's a It was.

00:03:40
Speaker 1: A total shit show from the time he hit that he choked that pitch, you know, didn't get into the green, and then it hit way wide right on that putt. But you know, so much more gut wrenching because he not only did it to himself, but he did it to Raimi as well. And so I mean, I know that that's that maybe sounds unkind, but that's really what it's all about right there, right.

00:04:06
Speaker 3: I think I think Lowry and Rory were celebrating before Trainer even.

00:04:11
Speaker 1: Hit the putt, really were they?

00:04:15
Speaker 2: No, I don't. I just didn't think there was a chance it was going in.

00:04:18
Speaker 1: All right, Andy, given that you've prepared extensively for this segment, what are you out on this week?

00:04:29
Speaker 3: Well, I travel a lot, and uh, I have to say that over over the last eight years, I've had numerous encounters with this airport and I am.

00:04:38
Speaker 2: Officially all the way out.

00:04:41
Speaker 3: You could get me more out on Dallas Fort Worth International Airport. It's an awful experience. It's it's horrendous. It's a bad airport. It's got bad aesthetics. It's like you feel like you're in a bunker. You're in like a government bunker when you're in it. And then every time I've gone there, the baggage, it's like nowhere else has this Probably it takes like an hour. I waited over an hour for even a bag to come out from my flight. Now, I know this is first world problems I'm complaining here, But comparatively across the board, I haven't encountered as consistently of bad of airport as Dallas Fort Worth International. So I'm out of there. I might be flying southwest into love Field anytime that I have to come to Dallas from now on.

00:05:29
Speaker 1: Dallas is pretty bad. Is it the busiest airport in the nation? Do you think? Is it up there with Atlanta?

00:05:34
Speaker 2: Is Atlanta Dallas?

00:05:36
Speaker 3: It used to be O'Hare forever, But I know, I think those two have unseated it.

00:05:41
Speaker 1: Oh, hair feels way less kind of like crowded and massive than Dallas these days. But yeah, I'm with you there. Anytime I have to fly through Dallas, even if I'm just stopping for a layover, I kind of get nervous. All right, what I'm out on this week? Andy, And this may surprise you. I'm out on the four aces.

00:06:02
Speaker 3: Oh, they've been bad this year, sneaky bad.

00:06:06
Speaker 1: What happened to the four aces? We've gone from everyone knows the aces to like who cares about the aces? They were second to last in Adelaide. Now all these stats that I'm signing might not be accurate. I just gathered these in a few seconds. Here. Eighth in the season long standings behind the range Goats. They never should have traded Taylor Gooch for Peter u Line a couple of years ago. That was such a baffling trade, and now they've got Harold Varner instead of u Line. Varner's forty eighth in greens and regulation not good in a league that has only fifty two regular players, and he hasn't placed better than seventeenth all season. Pat Perez has been rancid. He's out there averaging two hundred and eighty five yards off the tee in twenty twenty four, hasn't had a top ten all season, and DJ he had a big one in Vegas. But you just got a question has managerial skills at this point? You know, he let Taylor Gouch go and Gooch's out there making a name for himself. Is the best player not to be exempted? To any future majors. So a bad look for the four Aces, and I'm just really disappointed in their overall performance this year.

00:07:17
Speaker 3: I think you're seeing a team that was built on party culture. What happens three years after a guaranteed money it's that team, you know.

00:07:28
Speaker 1: All right, great in and out segment. Now, before we get to the golf Architecture mail bag, which we have prepared for, let's say a word about our official coffee sponsor, good Walk Coffee.

00:07:41
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00:07:49
Speaker 1: Oh, we're coffee purveyors.

00:07:51
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00:08:26
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00:08:31
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00:09:22
Speaker 1: And stuff goodwock coffee dot com slash fried Egg is the place to go to check all of this out. Let's get to our golf architecture mail bag, Andy. We put out a three part call kind of we let people know in a number of different venues. One, we asked people in Club TFE to send in some questions, so that's fried Egg's membership Club TFE. We had some of our members throw in questions, and we also asked on Twitter and Instagram. So we've got a bunch of questions here. We're not going to get to all of them. There are probably over one hundred questions, but we will get to a few of them. And I think the one I'd like to start with is from Lucas Santangelo. Lucas asks what new courses are you guys most excited for going into twenty twenty four twenty twenty five.

00:10:18
Speaker 3: I would say that for this one, I saw this course, but it was in the growing phase, so it's not like fully realized a course that I'd love. I can't wait to see when it's fully like playing speed, you know, when it's not in the growing where it's a little bit different conditions, the grass is a little scruffier. I can't wait for Sedge Valley at Sand Valley. I think that this is just a great golf course design in the sense of it's different, it's going to be I think a par sixty eight, par sixty eight or sixty nine, and I think we need more golf courses that are smaller, and this golf course is just a smaller regulation golf course. You do not feel short changed at all because it's a par sixty eight. There's plenty of width on the golf course. There are a number of holes that really provoke thought, and a lot of times it's in the do I hit something two thirty or do I go for the green? There are long par threes that are you know, that make you take out lumber and hit into them. They're short par fours that you know, like it is just a really fascinating golf course that I think, like, I think we have to move past the idea of like anything that's that's not a par seventy is a short course, Like this is a regulation golf course that isn't a par seventy, And there could be a regulation golf course that's a par sixty three. That's fine. I really like this direction of golf.

00:11:51
Speaker 1: You know, something that Tom Doak, the architect of Sedge Valley, obviously Tom. Something that Doake talks about a lot is how much of an impression Harbortown made on him early on Pete Dies Harbortown. And the big thing that Harbortown did in relation to other golf architecture that was happening at the time in the mid to late sixties is that it went smaller. It went more intimate, more subtle features, more kind of low profile, low impact golf architecture, which is a funny thing to think about when you think about Pete Die. But that's really what Harbor Town was and is. It's a smaller golf course than what Robert Trent Jones was building at the time. And so there seems like there might be some room in the current golf architecture landscape for somebody to come in and build something smaller because we've seen big, big, big going on in golf architecture right at the championship courses. The courses are getting longer, and then even for courses that are built for amateurs. We're seeing bigger grains, bigger fair ways, bolder concepts. There's room for somebody to kind of draw that back in a little bit.

00:13:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think, like what's interesting. Another course that I'm really excited to see is Cabot Citrus Farms the Kyle France course, which I think, like the Sedge Valley and it are like great contrasts. Like everybody, I feel like one of the complaints of some people with modern architecture, this wave that we as everybody's building stuff that looks the same. Those two courses look completely opposite and are built in completely opposite fashions into the sense of like hazards and and the you know, kind of the economy of of of the construction. But you know, they're I think they're both fascinating golf courses that I want to see, but they're going to be on the different end of of what you know, maximal kind of maximal and what's more intimate and smaller.

00:13:55
Speaker 1: Before I name a couple of courses that I'm excited to see, I want to throw in this question from DAYL Miller in Club TF about Cabot Citrus Farms. Since you bring up Cabot Citrus Farms. He says it's blowing up on social media. Do you guys plan to go there and do a review? Slash? Is the hype real? We haven't been there yet, right, Andy.

00:14:15
Speaker 2: Have not been there.

00:14:17
Speaker 3: I played the old I think, like all I could say really about is that I played the old golf course. The land's really good, it is. I thought that was one of Tom Fazio's better golf courses. I'm excited to get down there. You know, they've invited us down. I just we just didn't have time. And I think one of the things that I was I just prefer to go see it when it's kind of done, when the facility's done. I think the golf courses are are maturing growing in and I just wanted to go when I could see all of them. You know, Florida is far away from me and you, so I think maybe next fall or winter we'll get out there.

00:14:58
Speaker 1: I feel that way too. You know, if I lived in the region, I definitely would have gone over to see it. But I think that some of the early reactions we're getting to Cabot Citrus Farms are just a little bit premature. We don't really know what The Kyle Franz course there, which is called CAREW, we don't really know what that is yet because it needs to fully mature. It's it's in preview play right now. You really can't pass judgment on it yet, and you certainly can't pass judgment on it through photos. I think this is a course that you need to go see when it's ready. I'm sure the preview play is great and that you get a sense for the course, but you know, you got to give it a little bit of time here.

00:15:40
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, on that, I just think that I think in general, Cabot's pretty aggressive on the pr front.

00:15:47
Speaker 2: So that's all. I'll kind of just tie that up.

00:15:50
Speaker 1: With that, all right. I want to talk about a couple of courses that are opening in the next couple of years. Here. One is Jim Craig's for course at Rodeo Dunes, speaking of kind of smaller and I'm not sure what the power of this course is going to be, but I believe the plan is for it to be a kind of a sporty golf course as they used to call them back in the day. Really excited to see what Jim Craig does out there. Craig worked for many years for Corn Crenshaw and still works on projects with Corn Crenshaw. I believe he was predominantly responsible for the greens at the Sandbox, which are some of the best greens that I think have been designed in the past twenty five years that I've seen, just amazing set of greens. So he's getting a crack at a full original design here at Rodeo Dunes. This is a major opportunity. It's a dream golf resort, it's a Kaiser Sun's development and it's going to be on remarkable land and so stoked to get out there at some point and see that. Also really excited about Seven Mile Beach in Tasmania. We had a podcast with Matt Goggan, who's kind of the visionary behind this project a little while ago if you want to learn more about that. But amazing looking course out there coming together, designed by Mike Clayton and Mike Devrees a couple of others. Just to mention quickly, Tom Doak's course at Chulder's Hall I think is going to be on pretty amazing land. So that's wanted to keep an eye on the ranch, which is a Florida course. And I think of all the Florida courses that are going in right now, the one that's called the Ranch it's going to be. I believe thirty six holes pretty soon has probably the best land, or maybe even the most potential. The architecture. A firm behind that is Whitman Axland and Cutting. This is a firm that I really have an eye on. And finally, Warmouth Sands Municipal Project by Mike Young. Really excited to see that. Yeah, yeah, love the look of that course and love the idea behind it. All right, let's get to another question. Do you have something for me?

00:18:00
Speaker 2: Yeah? For sure?

00:18:02
Speaker 3: What I saw this question? It is about the Yale renovation. What hole are you most excited to play post renovation?

00:18:12
Speaker 2: I can't remember who wrote.

00:18:13
Speaker 1: This, let me look it up. This was from a master's burner. Yeah, all right, Yale. So I haven't actually played this course in quite a long time, but I did play it a few times back in the day. I am really excited to see what gil Hans and his crew do with the third hole. Are they going to bring back the double punch bowl?

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Speaker 2: I believe they are so If they do.

00:18:41
Speaker 1: That, that hole could be incredible because it's already a really neat hole with cool land, but I just can't wait to see that green brought back to life. It's hard to describe it, really, but double punch bowl really does get at it. You know, you've got two distinct lobes of that green that kind of formed different punch bowls. Totally unique and a really fun hole on great Land, which is a lot of the Yale course. So yeah, pretty pretty excited to see that one.

00:19:11
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I ran into Gil at the Masters. I just saw, you know, you don't have phones out there, and it was like at the end of end of one of the days I saw I saw him walking walking up the eighteenth and I was like, you know, and I stopped and we had a quick chat and one of the things he brought up, like, you know, it was unprovoked. He said, I gotta tell you, we're finding some amazing stuff at Yale. We're just it's just been it's you know, it's going. He's like, it's just unbelievable some of the stuff that was there. And I think like a lot of a lot of stuff from what I gathered, you know, whether it be on golf club Atlas through the years of threads there, a lot of stuff was just buried there. Like. So he told me that they they got into the fifth and they started working on the fifth green, and they somebody had just like heaped And I might be butchering this story, you know, so do not like quote me on this, but the somebody had been had like a superintendent had just kind of like flattened the green by putting soil on top of the green. And as they peeled it back, they found like the original contours of the green which had like a which had a like a horseshoe in it and everything.

00:20:27
Speaker 2: So he, you know, the they he.

00:20:31
Speaker 3: Was really I did not ask him about Yale. He brought it up, which tells me that there's gonna be some neat stuff from that renovation.

00:20:40
Speaker 1: It's it's a situation of total decades long neglect. They did some stuff to the course. They they they renovated the bunkers and things like that, but for the most part, like just kind of left the course alone for a long time and ignored it. I think there were probably generations of Yale administrators who didn't even know that the university had a golf course. That's that's how little people at Yale thought about the golf course. And so what's exciting about it is that there's probably still a lot of construction still there in the ground that you know, a crew like Hans's is going to be inclined to find.

00:21:22
Speaker 3: Whenever it's done, it's going to be amazing to see because it's it's a golf course that, more so than almost any other golf course you walk off and you're like, God, imagine if that was this that was and as it was in a state of let's just call it maybe sixty percent if I'm going to be generous of what it could be, it was, without a doubt one of the greatest golf courses in the country from does an architecture standpoint, and I think they're going to get so much back, and then the playing conditions should be a lot better, which is only going to aid you know what's there. Trey Jensen asked, what course have you recently seen that breaks the traditional rules of golf architecture? Well, the traditional rules I don't know what those are.

00:22:13
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what those are either, you know, and and breaks them, well, like breaks them and does the breaking effectively. I mean, probably the most radical course that I've seen recently, the most unusual course that I've seen in the past few years, is the Lido, right, Yeah. And it's kind of funny to use the Lido as the answer to this question because it is a you know, reproduction of a golf course that existed more than a century ago. But that course just you know, defies a lot of the conventions that emerged in golf architecture after the nineteen tens and twenties. There are just blind shots all over the place. There are massively penal bunkers in landing zones for drives that you cannot see from the tee. You've got so much genuinely weird stuff out there. You've got long holes with really crazy greens, and so you know, it's not like the architects are giving you a break on the long holes by having a simple green. So I think that a lot of those holes out there break the rules, but they're breaking rules that were kind of in the future tense when the course was built. I think the project is also sort of rule breaking as well, in the sense that you know, we really haven't done anything like that before, and maybe that maybe we shouldn't keep breaking that particular rule that this project broke in order to bring the Lido back. I'm not sure how many projects like the Lido I would want to see, but it is an incredibly radical golf course.

00:23:57
Speaker 3: I think one of the things that that that another rule that it breaks is the idea of like playability. I think that golf course does separate skill very like a lot of the golf courses I like bring skill together where it's very hard for really good players and really hard or in a little bit more manageable for average players or or below average players. I think Augusta National is actually a good example of a course that does this extraordinarily well.

00:24:28
Speaker 2: I think the lidos the opposite.

00:24:30
Speaker 3: I think the Leado's actually like quite manageable for a really good player, and I think it's crippling it is so hard for for a mediocre player like it. It is devastating that golf course is so hard, and especially with the conditions that you know, the firm and fast turf and and it's it gets pretty breezy out there. I was the one thing I was actually kind of like very happy about with the site, as it does get Wendy at the at that golf course, I don't think it gets as windy as Old you know, Beached did, but it does get a nice breeze there. I think that golf course is just so hard it I think it definitely separates skill more.

00:25:10
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean, you know, as as frieda Egg's resident eight handicap, I can confirm that getting around that golf course was very, very difficult for me. It was manageable, but there are certain shots out there and certain holes that if you're not an extremely skilled player, you're gonna have a hard time not making it double triple bogie, and that the famous channel hole is one of those.

00:25:35
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:25:36
Speaker 3: I would, I literally would look at some shots into greens and I'd be like, you know, I think, like, just this is just a feeling I used to have when I'd caddy a lot. Is like sometimes I'd be just like holding the bag looking at my player being like, I don't I don't think that this is a feasible shot here that we're trying and probably gonna be raking a bunker, you know, and then I might be raking another bunker.

00:26:00
Speaker 2: You know.

00:26:01
Speaker 3: These are the thoughts that go through your head. Does a caddy at that golf course? Watching other people play, a lot of times I felt like, I don't I don't know why they're aiming over there, but I don't know where they should aim.

00:26:11
Speaker 2: Because I don't think they have a chance of hitting this screen.

00:26:14
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's hard, So yeah, I think that's a good answer. The LDO breaks a lot of the sort of accepted current rules of golf architecture, and that's one of the reasons it's worth seeing. All right, I have a question for you, Andy. This one is from C. Moser. Which current tour player with no design history would you love to see design a golf course? Does anybody come to mind for that?

00:26:43
Speaker 2: Oh?

00:26:43
Speaker 3: Man, that's a good question. I'll tell you it's not Web Simpson. Can I can assure you that.

00:26:55
Speaker 1: You'd have a lot of dog legs and trees. I think that's that's his main opinion about it.

00:27:00
Speaker 3: I think you want to go towards the bottom end of the tour if you were going to do this. I just think that it's so rare. Somebody asked me what makes Zach have such a good architectural eye Zach Blair, and I said, he has the ability to understand what a tour player would do and how they would play a hole, but also how an eighteen handicap would play a hole. And as I thought about like that answer, I thought about how Zach spends a lot of time playing golf with normal people, Like he gets off site and he plays golf with members of clubs, and he plays golf with friends of his that aren't you know, tour caliber. That he has a lot of friends that are really good players, but he has a lot of friends that aren't really good players, so he understands how they play. So like, to me, that's kind of the recipe is finding somebody who's interested in golf architecture but also has like has some relative understanding of how the you know, the general public might play a golf course. So with that mind logan McAllister baby, who's on the Court Ferry Tour.

00:28:11
Speaker 1: He's he's interesting.

00:28:12
Speaker 3: He sends me messages every once in a while about golf courses, So maybe that he's interested in golf courses, which is like more so than a lot of people. Nick Hardy, I'd like to see you get a shot. Nick Hardy, he grew up. He's got a cool story. In the sense that he grew up playing like a Muni in the North suburbs of Chicago and nothing Burger Muni. But I believe one of his grandparents was a member at Crystal Downs. Like they had a family house up there. And you know, one of the cool things about that is like if you're a member, or if you live in the county that Crystal Downs is in, I think it's Benzian County, Like the deal to be a member there is not crazy. But so he grew up playing Crystal Downs and it took him forever to like it was a course that all always beat him up, and he never could understand how this like sixty six hundred yard course was holding a like was holding up to his game. You know, this is a kid that was a great, great player. And then like one day, I remember, he finally took it down. He set the course record. He shot something like sixty three. He might have shot something better. He'll correct me if I'm wrong in the number, but the but yeah, he he would be one that actually I think I think that I think he'd be a good one. Actually he's he's a super thoughtful guy. You know, last time I saw Nick at a tournament he told me that he thought mudballs we should they shouldn't be playing left clean in place because mudballs. Playing mudballs is a skill in golf. Understanding mudballs is a skill that is being And I was like, that's that's an incredible take.

00:29:47
Speaker 2: You know, that's the type of thinking.

00:29:48
Speaker 1: Yeah right, yeah, that's what we need. Yeah, I mean the real answer is one of those tour pros who is bright and thoughtful and likes to go see golf courses when they're traveling around on tour. I mean, that's the real answer here. I'm not sure who that is, but it was Ben Crenshaw. That was the guy that Ben Crenshaw was, and that's why he turned out to be such a wonderful contributor to Corn. Crenshaw and Zach Blair certainly like has taken a keen interest in architecture, reads about it, is passionate about it, and so it's no surprise that he ends up being good at it. Now, I will mention a couple of names here who might not turn out to be great golf architects, but I think are interesting for a couple of different reasons. One Scotti Scheffler, he is I think currently helping on a design in Texas right now. He mentioned this in an interview, and he said in that interview that he's reading Golf Architecture in America Way by George Thomas. Yeah, he said that, and so unless I dreamt it, I'm pretty sure he said this. Now. I heard this, and I thought, there are a lot of golf architecture books that you could read that would be just easier to read than Golf Architecture in America. It's a great book, it's one of the greatest books about golf architecture ever written. But it's pretty dense. It's not easy to read. I mean, you could read The Links by Robert Hunter, you could read Spirit of Saint Andrews by Alistair Mackenzie. Those are much more lucid. Or you could read a modern book like An Anatomy of a Golf Course by Tom Doak. All of those would be, you know, smoother sledding than Golf Architecture in America. But apparently that's what Shuffler is doing, so maybe he has kind of the bug for it. The other person that I thought would be kind of interesting on tour for designing a golf course would be Matt Fitzpatrick, And I'm not sure that he would come up with a golf course that I like. I think it would be really penal. That's the thing. Yeah, I think he'd like design a Harbortown style golf course. But the thing about Matt Fitzpatrick is that I think he would have interesting thought out takes on what a golf course should be that wouldn't just be like towing the the you know, titleist company line about stuff or or reiterating things that he's heard from other people on tour. I think he's like a pretty original thinker and that's a big part of what it takes to design cool golf courses. So Matt Fitzpatrick might be might be interesting to hear from.

00:32:20
Speaker 3: I also think there is an intangible to who a good pro is is finding one that would that would be attached their name to it and then never show up.

00:32:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, just have like have a good architect in place who would be the kind of ghost writer of the of the golfers like that, like a Nick fel though.

00:32:42
Speaker 3: You know, honestly, when you listened to Tom and we obviously did a ton of episodes on this on the podcast, when he was building Memorial Park. Like brooks Kopka's insight to Tom about how to how to challenge the world's best players at Memorial Park was spot on. I mean, you see what that golf course has done over the years. It's been amazing to watch it and and PGA tour player and it's like he said, basically, less bunkers, don't put bunkers, contours around the greens.

00:33:13
Speaker 2: We don't like that.

00:33:14
Speaker 3: We don't like having downslopes and different things like all these all the you know, different length part threes, like all this stuff that brooks Kepka suggested there really worked well. And obviously I think like part of it, part of part of a tour pro consultant working well is having a golf architect who's able to take their feedback and pull the pull the really valuable stuff out of it and not get hung up on some other stuff.

00:33:46
Speaker 1: You know.

00:33:46
Speaker 3: I'm sure that Brooks said things that Tom didn't really pay attention to or you know, like use, but the stuff that he did take from the brooks Kepka consulting visits seemingly really helped him develop a golf course that's playable for the general public.

00:34:04
Speaker 2: And very challenging for the tour pros.

00:34:06
Speaker 1: All right, let's talk quickly about Bushnell, Andy, what can you tell me about this rangefinder making company.

00:34:16
Speaker 3: Listen, Like when I remember when I was growing up playing junior golf, Like the day that rangefinders came out, it was like an incredible development in in in golf. And I remember Bushnell had this big rangefinder. It was like wide, it was like basically as wide as your head, and it had one little thing that you look through and I think I still might have it at my parents' house, and it was, you know, it was clunky, but it was an amazing development in golf. It really was an innovation, and the company has continued to innovate. They have a new X three Pro plus rangefinder that's out, and I mean since that big, clunky original race, they now have these small rangefinders. They pick up the pin well. And the big new innovation is that this rangefinder not only picks up slope so it can tell you how far uphill it is, it now also picks up wind and can tell you how hard the wind's blowing. So if you connect this rangefinder with the Bushnell app you will get up to date, wind direction and speed information, so you will always know what the wind's doing even if you're you know, if you're on the twelfth tier Augusta, if you had the Bushnell X three Pro Plus, you pull that out, you wouldn't have any problems judging which way the wind's blowing. So if you're interested in the Bushnell X three Pro Plus, it's used by like all the tour pros. These these range finders are the best in the business. You can visit Bushnell golf dot com and you can you can learn more about it there and purchase it there.

00:35:54
Speaker 1: All right, cool, let's go on to another question. Do you have one for me? Andy?

00:35:59
Speaker 3: I got Ben Alex question, what cultural forces do you think GCA golf art, course architecture is most influenced by.

00:36:06
Speaker 1: I saw this question too and gave it a little bit of thought. It's kind of hard to define cultural forces, right, That's that's a pretty vague term, But I think I know what Ben is going for. Like, I think he's talking about the influences from outside of golf that have an influence on golf architecture. And I've got a couple of thoughts on that. This is something that I think about a lot that I talked to architects about a lot. It's it's a big interest of mine. So, you know, one big kind of cultural force that I think shapes golf architecture quite a bit is this tension between romanticism and rationalism. You know, in times when the culture is tipping toward romanticism, we get certain kinds of you know, less rational or wilder architecture, and in times where things are tipping toward rationalism a bit more, we tend to get tidier architectural ideas, more organized golf architecture. That's a huge oversimplification, but it's something that's interesting to think about when you compare like the post World War II period to the nineteen twenties. You know, in the nineteen twenties there was a strong influence of Romanticism on golf architecture, and in the post war period things were certainly moving toward the rationalist side. Another big thing that I think acts on golf architecture, and this is something that I know will resonate with you, Andy, is craft culture.

00:37:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, That's what I would have said, right so.

00:37:45
Speaker 1: And craft culture comes from a number of different places. I think recent craft culture, you know, the kind of craft culture that we've been familiar with since the nineties, basically in beer and handmade clothing and other kinds of.

00:37:59
Speaker 2: Good black coffee objects.

00:38:01
Speaker 1: Good walk coffee. Sure well, good Walk coffee you know comes from overseas and then they and then they do it here. They do they you know, they roast it in the United States, which makes them different than a lot of people. But in any case, you know, craft culture as we know it now, I think is very much a reaction to globalization, right where because things are becoming so global and interconnected and therefore a little bit confusing, there is a desire that people have to buy things and have experiences that are more local and handmade and unique. And this goes along with the uniqueness and localism and sense of place that we've seen in a lot of the best golf architecture since the nineteen nineties.

00:38:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, with that craft culture too, there's a there's like an individuality that comes with it, right There's almost a there's a there's a little bit of a resistance to conformity and like this this maniacal focus on creating something unique and different, and I think like when you think about golf architecture. That is a great, great, great guiding principle is uniqueness into visuality and different. Now on the flip side, I think like, I think like where golf architecture might be going as it keeps evolving, because I think it was a little behind like craft beer, and I think you've seen it with craft beer. Is like I think people are starting to realize, like not every green with crazy contours is great green necessarily just.

00:39:42
Speaker 2: Because you can build.

00:39:44
Speaker 3: Just because you can't just pack a beer with as much hops as you possibly can doesn't mean that it's a great.

00:39:53
Speaker 1: You know, just making strawberry vanilla rhubarb. Yeah.

00:39:57
Speaker 2: Yeah.

00:39:57
Speaker 3: So I think, like what what happened is like that it moves, And I think this is like what's so cool about art or creating stuff for trends in general is that you have this like these tastes change and move and evolve. And I think with golf courses, like some courses will be ahead of their time, some courses will be, you know, kind of trying to hit off of something that was popular and come late online with that trend. And I think that's the neat thing about about it is as if golf courses, and I think that's a big if if golf courses keep getting built at the clip that they're being built right now, which I don't think it feels sustainable, but let's hope that it's sustainable because it's fun. We'll see these trends continue to change, and we'll see the we'll see the tastes continue to change, and I think that's what's what's really fun about about all the new courses and what's happened over the last twenty years.

00:41:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, you architects now are getting an opportunity to express the ideas that they've been holding on to for a long time. So in that sense, it's exciting. And so I don't want to get caught complaining too much about the golf architecture that we're seeing, because on the whole, it's a really fun possibility for many of these architects that they get to finally build an original golf course. Now, another tension in culture that I thought about in relation to this question, and it might relate to kind of what's going on now where we're moving now in golf architecture, is a tension that I see between naturalism and luxury, right so naturalism would be this desire to return to nature. You know, your life has become too comfy, too luxurious, and what you really want to do is go have a visceral experience in nature versus times when people kind of prefer more luxurious experiences. And I think that this kind of dichotomy explains or helps explain some of what happened in golf architecture in the nineteen eighties, which was an age that valued luxury quite a bit, and so we saw a lot of luxurious golf courses being built in that period. That kind of changed in the late nineties and early two thousands, when there was more of a desire to return to nature, to be more natural, we saw more natural golf courses. What I see in a lot of the recent golf architecture is kind of bringing back some of that luxury, some of that excess. Right now, the esthetics of the golf courses are inspired by some of what Tom Doak and Corn Crenshaw were doing twenty twenty five years ago. But the earth moving, the overall the turf presentation, the overall kind of manufacturing of golf courses has become to my eye, a lot more luxurious in the twenty twenties, as more money has entered golf architecture and as there has been a desire among many golfers to experience that luxury. And to me, that's not golf architecture that really excites me.

00:43:20
Speaker 2: It's interesting too.

00:43:22
Speaker 3: I think, like what I guess I'm like a little surprised about is that I think Sweeten's Cove, Like people are fascinated with the Sweetens Cove phenomenon and so much of Sweetened Cove's success. I think, like the golf course is really cool and unique, and it's for public golf, like not something you see every day. And I think there was that aspect of it, But I think the other part of it is the culture that was created by the bare boneseness of the facilities. And I'm surprised to see, like, none of these new courses are I haven't seen anybody be like, you know what, we don't need a clubhouse, we don't need this. Everybody's still doing that, and it's kind of crazy to me that nobody has looked at this and been like, you know what, it's a huge advantage when you have no overhead for a clubhouse, when you you operate out of a shed and you have minimal staff, like and you don't like, sure you don't have a part of a driving range, but it's worked just fine for this course, Like why do we need that? And I'm actually like pretty surprised that so few, like everybody looks at Sweeten's Cove and it's like, oh, we could build something like that, but none of them take like the guiding.

00:44:38
Speaker 2: Philosophy and and and.

00:44:41
Speaker 3: I think, like really like a huge part of the charm of the whole place is the facilities.

00:44:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, and how kind of unexpected it was. Right here was this sort of extravagant golf course. I mean maybe the extravaganst the wrong word, but here was this you know, really out there golf of course that was just sitting in the most humble setting that you could imagine and not surrounded by luxury. It was a really interesting contrast. I think they've maintained a little bit of that in the way they had. They've they've you know, kept it. So all credit to them for keeping that going.

00:45:18
Speaker 3: They have millionaire celebrity investors and they've kept that. I think like that that course wouldn't have survived if it had anything but the shed, if they had any more overhead, it would have.

00:45:35
Speaker 2: Wouldn't have survived.

00:45:36
Speaker 3: And I feel confident just based off of robinized texts in twenty seventeen that were you know, I don't know how long this has got, well we.

00:45:47
Speaker 1: Got they were on the edge. They were really on the edge for a long time. Yeah.

00:45:51
Speaker 3: And so the idea of like golf like it and I think, like that's like the crazy thing when I look at the the industry and like it's like you need to have thirty million dollars to build a golf course. Now it doesn't it doesn't seem like that's actually the what the number should be, or is it's just the opulence in what you're building.

00:46:21
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a golf You go there to play golf.

00:46:25
Speaker 3: I you know, all right, another thing like people rant and people are people hate on Chicago Golf Club's culture. Like the idea it's not like a place where you go sit and have a bunch of beers afterwards, but it's a golf club. And I do I think like one of the things that gets lost sometimes is it's pretty nice to have a place that the only your only tie to the place is that I golf there.

00:46:55
Speaker 2: I go there to play golf.

00:46:58
Speaker 3: Nobody goes to Jim And then it's like, oh, I love the restaurant here at the gym. You know, I go to the gym because of the restaurant. Nobody goes to any of these golf clubs because of the restaurant or the clubhouse or the locker room. They go there because of the golf course. And at the at the end of the day, every nice amenity that you add on top is going to cost money. And I just I think like sometimes like everybody's like racing to have the next great club, and and what's so wrapped up. It's so wrapped up in like we have to have this, we need to have track man on the range, we need to have this on this. Just give me a nice place to play golf at. I just all I all I really want from a golf course is a golf course. I could care less if I'm changing my shoes in the car or if I'm like hanging out there for that. Like, I'm guessing that almost every golf course is in a town that has a nice pub that could go have a beer at.

00:48:01
Speaker 2: You know, I don't know, I.

00:48:04
Speaker 3: Guess like I guess, I like think sometimes golf loses his way with like building all these amenities on top of what's actually like, what is actually important.

00:48:15
Speaker 2: The only thing this imports the golf course.

00:48:18
Speaker 1: You know. I was at Crossroads at Palmetto Bluff a few weeks ago, and this is a new King Collins course. It's reversible, nine holes on a very small footprint. I have complicated feelings about the golf course that I need to work out, but eventually I'll write something about it and say something about it. But you know, on the whole, really fun place to play golf and a really creative idea for a course. And what they have set up right now because they haven't like fully opened the golf course yet, is a food truck and an airstream trailer for the pro shop. And they have a little kind of patio cover that you can sit under if it rains or you want some shade. The food truck had amazing food, like such good food. The people were so nice that the pros who were there, the people working in the food truck, all the staff, they were lovely. And I was sitting there thinking this is really all they need. But I believe the plan at this point, and you know this, this may change, but the plan is to build a clubhouse out there, and I just don't think that you need any more than what you've got out there now. They probably have their own reasons for going the clubhouse direction. It's a big residential community with a resort component. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of people coming through there with a certain expectation that they'll have something more than a little trailer where they have their pro shop. And I'm sure the pros will like it too, to have like a real facility there. But as I was sitting there, you know, eating the delicious fried chicken sandwich that they had fixed me in the food truck, I was thinking, like, this is you literally do not need a thing more than this for this golf course. This would be so fun. You'd go up play nine holes, you come back, you'd eat a little meal, you'd go up play nine more, and that would be a really fun day and a great use of the facility. But yeah, I mean, it's I think part of the impulse andy, part of the reason we're seeing courses turn out the way they are architecturally, where they kind of have this extravagance or this effort to have every hole be really great and really complex, really elaborate. I think the reason we're seeing some of that architecture is exactly because construction is costing so much that nobody is building golf courses without the intention to make the golf course one of the best core is in the country. That's what every developer wants now, because they're spending an amount of money where they can't bring themselves to say, we're just going to build a nice golf course here. We're just going to build kind of whatever the land gives us here. No, they're saying, we want this to be the best course in the state because we're spending X amount of dollars to build it. And I think that that's a big influence on the current state of golf architecture, where the architects feel that pressure to make a golf course the best, the developers feel that pressure because everything is costing so much, and the result is we're losing We're losing a bit of that kind of modest architecture that can be really lay of the land, have a great sense of place, but doesn't necessarily produce a top one hundred golf course, and so I think that's an issue that we're facing right now, and we've got to figure out ways to make all stuff costs less, and I'm not sure how we do that.

00:52:04
Speaker 2: All right, move it on to a different era.

00:52:08
Speaker 3: Jason Murray wants to know what missing features from the Victorian age do you think deserves a comeback?

00:52:17
Speaker 1: Jason Murray, a Club TFE member, shout out, Jason, I don't think much deserves to come back from the Victorian period. We've gotten this question a few times. It seems like people have gotten maybe a little bit impatient with Golden Age influence in golf course design and want to search for new sources of inspiration in the Victorian period. But I'm not sure that we necessarily need to go back to like Tom Dunn, you know, and to actually look at the golf courses that were being built then, because they were mostly pretty bad, like legitimately not very good golf courses. I'm one saying that. Well, let me let me say one thing. One thing that I think is underrated about the Victorian period is that those courses and this relates to what I was just saying about the cost of golf course construction and it's influence on architecture. Everybody thinks of Victorian era golf courses were really unnatural and that Golden Age courses were more natural. But I would actually say that Victorian ara courses were quite a bit more natural than Golden Age courses for the important reason that they didn't spend nearly as much money on them. They were spending barely anything to build golf courses in the Victorian period, and as a result, they had a lot of issues being playable. But they were very natural, aside from you know, when they built the bunkers up in weird, unnatural looking ways, and they did weird things geometric things to the greens and things like that. Yeah, they did all that that didn't look natural, but the rest of those golf landscapes would be absolutely one hundred percent natural. And so I kind of think that that would be a nice way to approach golf architect sure these days where you do a lot of building in certain places on the golf course, but you leave everything else as much as you can basically the way it is. So that's that's my uh, that's my thought about the Victorian period, how it's misunderstood and and how we might be able to derive some kind of inspiration from it.

00:54:18
Speaker 3: I I want something back, I want more. I want more cops.

00:54:24
Speaker 1: You want you want cop bunkers. So these are like the built up nouns on the on the edges of bunkers.

00:54:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love them. I think they're amazing.

00:54:33
Speaker 3: They used to they use them in a couple spots at Old Barnwell and I drove I had here a great drive on a hole and I ended up in one of these and it was like a disaster. I was in a terrible place. And I think they they look weird, but I think they're intimidating. You could see them and once you run into them once you're like, I don't want anything to do with that thing again. And sure enough, like the next time I played that hole that I ran it into the co I was thinking about it. I was like, I got to get this ball a little bit more left because I don't want anything to do with that cop bunker.

00:55:07
Speaker 2: So I want more cops.

00:55:09
Speaker 3: They're just flat bottom, They're like they're the most simple bunker. They're just like it's like you just like scraped out the turf, put sand down and then there's a big bound in front of you. And I think it's super economical. Like I like this type of feature.

00:55:26
Speaker 2: I like it up.

00:55:27
Speaker 3: It's not pretty, but it's very it's a very effective hazard.

00:55:32
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I kind of like, I think they just need to be executed with some discernment and with some taste, right, and so you know, as long as you're doing that, they can they can make a pretty neat hazard, and they can sometimes look really cool too, you know. They uh Doakes team of which Ryan Schneider was a part, did some of this kind of work at Common Ground. It's one of the things that I think Common Ground was pretty forward thinking about was the way the bunkers were designed. Some of them kind of have this Victorian cop type look, and they're pretty cool.

00:56:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, very cool.

00:56:09
Speaker 1: Let's get to another question. This will be kind of a function as a very short US Women's Open course preview, but Colin Berger asks, what are the three best holes at Lancaster. This is Lancaster Country Club in Pennsylvania, the site of the US Women's Open, which is coming up in a couple of weeks. Here, so three best holes at Lancaster. I can go first, if you want to think about.

00:56:37
Speaker 3: It, I got a couple. There's so many great par fours. My list might be all par fours. I think my three favorite holes there would probably be.

00:56:50
Speaker 2: Ten. I love ten kind of plays down and up.

00:56:54
Speaker 3: There's just so many, I would say, like when you think about Lancaster, there are just so many great ridged ridge holes where you're tee off on one ridge, you play down and then you play up high to another ridge.

00:57:07
Speaker 2: And there are some really stout part fours.

00:57:10
Speaker 3: Ten being one of them, and it kind of twists around the back side of the property. It moves a little left to right, and that green, I mean, if you don't hit a great approach shot, it's going to be a very very hard par.

00:57:22
Speaker 2: I really love the.

00:57:26
Speaker 3: I love the fifth hole another part four that kind of I mean, really that stretch of three, four, five, six is a really great stretch of golf, a beautiful kind of outside part of the property. You kind of tee off off of ridge on three, so the fifth hole comes back and you play up on a ridge, and then the green sits down low below the sixth tee shot, below the six tea box, and it's just that's just a really neat hole, the landforms really beautiful.

00:57:57
Speaker 2: And then third final hole, third favorite hole, I'll just go with.

00:58:06
Speaker 3: I'll go with the sixteenth. It's a short part four. It's got a series of bunkers. Talk about nothing. There's not any bunker spared there. There was a lot of bunkers on that hole. But a cool short par four that kind of coming down the stretch.

00:58:23
Speaker 1: Sixteen is one of mine two. You know, Lancaster is an interesting course William Flynn design. It's got kind of these two portions of its property. One is this big burly set of hills next to the clubhouse, and that's where a lot of those ridge to ridge holes that you're talking about are. And there are a lot of good ones, but there are just a lot of ridge to ridge holes too, and I think it ultimately turns out to be a flaw of the course where so many of the holes are playing from an elevated tee to a fair way down in a valley and back up to a green. This can be a great type of hole and you can find all kinds of variety with it. They're just a lot of them at Lancaster, and so I tend to enjoy the holes at Lancaster that are kind of on this other section of the property across the Conestoga River, that are on a very different kind of land. It's not this big, swooping set of hills. It's a little bit subtler, and so the holes can kind of take on some different and to me, more interesting shapes. I also like the second hole that plays along the kind of this big drop off, and it's a good strategic shortish part four and then I also also like the sixteenth hole, So a lot of neat holes to watch it at Lancaster. I think it'll be a good venue and it'll definitely test ball striking at a high level because the players will be hitting off of uneven lies a lot to some really hard to hit elevated targets. So my feeling is that the the course is going to you know, kind of allow really really good ball strikers, elite players to shine. It'd be hard not to not to think that Nelly Korda would kind of feast on that course in a way that a lot of the a lot of her competitors won't.

01:00:15
Speaker 2: All Right, you want to hit recommendations.

01:00:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go to recommendations let's let's wrap this episode up. We have a lot of other questions from people, a lot.

01:00:24
Speaker 2: Of really Doom Part two at some point.

01:00:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, We've We've got a lot of material here, and I'll certainly i'll go into Club TF. Any questions that we didn't hit from Club TF members, I'll make sure to answer. But let's do recommendations. This is our final segment. Recommendations Should I go first? Andy, are you figuring out what you want to recommend? I?

01:00:42
Speaker 2: I got mine? I got mine.

01:00:43
Speaker 3: Actually I'll go so the Masters. Every year for me, I go and I can have my phone in the media center, but I leave my phone in the media center for long hours of the day as I go out on the golf course, and just like all the patrons, I don't have my phone. This year, going back home, I've made a concerted effort to try and mimic that what I noticed when I met the Masters is just how much more thought I have and how much more how much more present I am in situations because I don't have my phone, I don't have that crutch of my phone to go back to. And you know, I think back to like even in college, where phones weren't smartphones really yet I was, you know, I was just so much more present, and I think, like the phone's a gratifying and it's a it's an amazing tool.

01:01:38
Speaker 2: It's something that I love so much.

01:01:40
Speaker 3: But I've noticed since coming back, I've made a concerted effort to leave my phone in rooms and go into other rooms and be with my family, my friends, whatever it may be.

01:01:53
Speaker 2: And it's been great. I have really found.

01:01:57
Speaker 3: It to be an unbelievable thing to do, and I always had talked about doing it more and I am very happy that I've been doing it more and I'm going to continue to try and do it more because of that.

01:02:12
Speaker 2: So I recommend trying it out.

01:02:15
Speaker 3: Leave your phone in a different room, and I think everybody like, after that initial shock of not having your phone, you might enjoy it.

01:02:24
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think this is such I mean, it's almost a shame to talk about it in recommendations because I think this is such an important life skill. It's something I think about all the time with my kids, like how am I going to help them separate from their devices and have face to face experiences, Because you know, once you've been missing that for a while and then you get it again for a bit, Like if you go to the Masters, you don't have your phone with you and you're you're forced to, you know, be with people in a very simple way. You realize that it does a lot for your mental health. I think, and I think that a lot of us are missing that these days. All Right, My recommendation is Dave Shoudlaski's piece in Golf Digest published this past week about the turmoil at NBC Sports right now around golf coverage. I think people should check this piece out to get a sense of what's going on. This is an important story that has been really underreported, just the absolute collapse of golf coverage at NBC, how bad it's gotten, how much they've cut costs, how much talent they've lost, the fact that they don't even know who's going to be calling the US Open at this point. It is in pretty ridiculous shape over there. And the piece kind of gives some view into that it's not Woodward and Bernstein. I think I detect in the piece that Shoudlaski has got a couple of anonymous sources at NBC Sports who are sort of ally against Sam Flood, who's the executive producer and president of Production at NBC Sports, Sam Flood get gets eviscerated in this piece.

01:04:10
Speaker 2: There of the piece is just a direct bit Sam Flood.

01:04:15
Speaker 1: I have to say, should Lostcy would probably admit this. This is not like a neutral piece. It seems pretty clear that it's uh, you know, generous toward Tommy Roy, who's the lead golf producer, and and very very critical toward Sam Flood. So I don't know what the real situation is, like who's at fault or who's really doing the damage here, But I think the story is that there's a big schism between you know, Tommy Roy and his staff on one side, and Sam Flood and maybe some other NBC higher ups on the other side, and it's hurting the television product and intern fans.

01:04:53
Speaker 2: I a one quote from it.

01:04:55
Speaker 3: One staffer joke that quote, pretty soon we're going to just do artist renditions of coverage as opposed to showing actual shots with the camera.

01:05:06
Speaker 1: I had. I had that excerpted to the end.

01:05:09
Speaker 2: The end of it is amazing.

01:05:11
Speaker 3: It goes the current deal on which Fox pays thirty percent expired. This about the US Open expires in twenty twenty six. The excl exclusive negotiating period between the USG and Comcast begins later this year and is thrown open in twenty five. If the sides can't come to an agreement, golf viewers would be right to ask how much Flood even cares?

01:05:34
Speaker 1: And that's not like a quote from somebody that is writing that. That is the journalist expressing a you there, so very interesting piece, incredibly interesting situation and a bit of a bummer. All right, that's it for this episode. Andy, thanks for joining me for the Golf Arcticture mailbag.

01:05:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is great. Thanks s Garrett. I'll talk to you soon.

01:06:07
Speaker 1: This episode of the Frida Egg Golf podcast was produced by Matt Rusius. Thank you Matt. If you'd like to support Friday Golf on another level, then please consider joining CLUBTFE. This is Friday Golf's membership. It's one hundred and twenty dollars a year and a lot comes with it. You can check it out at the Frida Egg dot com slash membership You get special privileges like early entry into events and an ongoing discount in the pro shop, as well as exclusive content that we work really hard on and are very proud of. So that's Club TFE. We'd love you to join us in the club. Thanks for listening to this episode. We'll be back again soon