Congresswoman Sarah McBride

00:00:01
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00:01:00
Speaker 2: Donald Trump created an unholy alliance with tech oligarchs and billionaires. He said, you fund my campaign and facilitate my consolidation of power, and I will pay you off with massive tax breaks. Over the last ten months, he has destroyed these life saving programs. He's gutted food assistance, He's passed the largest cut to healthcare in American history, all to create a piggybank that he can then raid to fund just partially those tax breaks for billionaires.

00:01:29
Speaker 1: I first met Representative Sarah McBride at the DNC in twenty sixteen, when she became the first openly transperson to take the stage at a political party's national convention. We got to know each other a little bit better when she came to a screening of a documentary I had done a year later, called Gender Revolution, which examined our changing notion of gender identity. Well since then, she has served four years as a Delaware State Senator and now is the first openly trans person in Congress. Sarah is so smart and so kind, and I think she is one of the rising stars of the Democratic Party. So I am thrilled to have her here in our studio for an extended conversation. Congresswoman McBride, thank you so much for joining us.

00:02:20
Speaker 2: Thank you. I am so excited to be here with you, to see you once again. It has been too long.

00:02:25
Speaker 1: It has been a long time, and as I told you, I've texted you a few times. I was so afraid that you were not into me. Anymore, or we're ghosting me or something, and I'd never heard back from you, so I was like, what happened to Sarah?

00:02:40
Speaker 2: I can't believe I was missing Katie Kurrk's texts. I'm so sorry. I am so sorry. I did not mean to ghost Katie Kurk.

00:02:46
Speaker 1: That's okay. I'm just glad this has finally happened. Sarah. You have had quite the freshman year in Congress. Since January. The Trump administration has kidnapped, attained, or deported American citizens, unleashed the National Guard to American streets, attempted to end birthright citizenship, gotten rid of hundreds of thousands of federal workers, significantly decreased the budget for medical research, threatened and extorted news organizations as well as colleges and universities, pardoned all of those who participated in the January sixth insurrection, among others, alienated some of our closest allies, put in place tariffs that might be unconstitutional. Those are just a few things.

00:03:27
Speaker 2: So I'm going to say, you're just scratching the surface with that.

00:03:30
Speaker 1: Yeah, the list goes on and on. Oh and I forgot. He presided over the longest government shutdown in history. How would you describe your first ten months at the Capitol.

00:03:41
Speaker 2: Well, I will start by saying it is genuinely a privilege to get to represent what I hope everyone knows is objectively the greatest state in the history of the Union, Delaware in Congress, and I am in all that I have the privilege of being there. But I certainly wish I had entered a very different Congress than the one I have entered, a very different Washington than the one I have entered, because the last ten months, which I think for all of us, have felt like a decade, I have had a front row seat to the chaos, to the incompetence, and I think, more than anything else, the cruelty of this administration. They have set out to implement, page by page, bullet by bullet Project twenty twenty five, to turn back the clock on our nation's progress, not just fifty years, but one hundred years or more, devastating the social safety net in this country, passing the largest cut in American history, not just the largest cut to medicated in an American history, the largest cut to healthcare in American history. They are firing thousands of qualified federal workers, dismantling agencies, dismantling programs that are saving lives here and abroad, all in an effort to prove that government can't work by making it not work, and ultimately, all in an effort to consolidate power for this president, who without question is a want to be authoritarian. Through all of that, whether it's the abridgment of due process, the attack on immigrant communities, the attack on vulnerable communities across this country, this administration and Republicans have engaged in a strategy that is as old as politics itself, and it is the tired, weak, insecure strategy of authoritarian wannabes, and that is to divide a country and to misdirect the public's attention by telling people, as they see their healthcare ripped away, as they see costs rising, as they see their future slipping away, that the people who are to blame for that are not the Republican politicians passing those policies in Washington, but rather immigrant communities or trans young people, or anyone who is misunderstood. And it's had dangerous consequences for so many people across this country. But as scary as it is to see right now. I think for me, the last ten months have only reinforced my resolve because I truly believe everything is on the line in this moment, and that means we have to fight hard, but we have to fight smart. It means we have to build the kind of diverse coalition we need to win and deliver, and it means that we have to ultimately figure out how to make this government work, because I believe that what we're seeing right now, the rise of authoritarianism, the rise of trump Ism, it is the byproduct of a crisis of hope this country has that individually or collectively, we can't meet the scope and the scale of the challenges that we face. That fosters anger people give up on government seeing and respecting them and ultimately delivering for them, and that anger feeds trump Ism, and also it leads to people viewing politics as a place for entertainment rather than progress. And I think that's one of the reasons why I see so many professional provocateurs in Congress right now, essentially on the other side of the aisle, because when people give up on government being a force for good, then we see it as a force for entertainment, and that only furthers that crisis of hope we have as a country.

00:07:01
Speaker 1: You know, Delaware is a blue state, the Great State of Delaware, Sarah, But forty one percent of voters in your state did vote for President Trump in the last election. And I'm curious. You talk to your constituents all the time, how are they responding to the chaos of these initial ten months of the second Trump administration.

00:07:26
Speaker 2: I have the privilege of representing the entirety of Delaware, which means I represent urban, suburban, and rural areas. I represent blue areas, purple areas, and red areas. And unlike most people who just see political discussion happening on the news or on social media, I get to go out and talk to people across the political divide about politics, and I actually think it's one of the blessings of my job. What I hear very frequently from people is that they're scared. For some it's they're scared about the future of our democracy. They're scared for their dignity and their freedoms. But more than anything else, I hear people being scared about their future, Scared about whether they're going to be able to afford healthcare, Scared about whether they're going to be able to put food on the table and send their kids to good schools and pursue the American dream and buy a home. And I think from the folks who I talk to who have voted for this president, who aren't necessarily dedicated Trumpers, but people who I would describe as Trump tolerant, the biggest thing I hear from them is that they feel like this president has broken the core promise he made in the twenty twenty four election, which was to focus on making life more affordable in this country, and they feel like he has not only shirked that priority, he's actually made the cost of living crisis worse with those tariffs that you mentioned, with cuts to healthcare that are going to increase premiums one hundred two hundred three hundred.

00:08:53
Speaker 1: Percent for people.

00:08:54
Speaker 2: They're frustrated that he's betrayed his promise to them. I will say one of the reasons why it is such a blessing for me in this moment to have a job where I go out and I talk to people across the political divide about politics, because it is so easy in this moment to feel like politics itself, which is at the end of the day of the art of persuasion, that it's pointless because when you go on social media and when you turn on the TV, you see just the loudest voices, you see just the most extreme perspectives, which is what most people see. It's easy to go our divide. Our disagreements are so significant that we can't have a national dialogue. There's no way to hear one another, there's no way to find common ground, there's no way to convince other people of my position because we're just so far apart. And when you actually get out of those spaces and into the real world for those conversations, you realize, yeah, we have disagreements, and yes there are pretty profound disagreements, but most people are actually good people. Most people are decent people, and we have actually a lot more in common than what the algorithms make it seem.

00:10:07
Speaker 1: Or reinforce right, well reinforce for that matter.

00:10:10
Speaker 2: For as toxic as this moment in our politics is, being able to interact with people who think differently than I do has actually not only reinstilled my beliefs and my values, because I've been having to defend those values in those beliefs in those policies in those conversations. But it's actually made me more hopeful because it has allowed me to see that politics as a form of change making, which at the end of the day requires us to change one another's minds, that is still possible.

00:10:41
Speaker 1: You did a very thoughtful podcast with Ezra Client, which I thought was so well done, and I thought it was interesting, Sarah, you said out in the real world, people aren't catastrophizing what's happening to our democracy as much as they cared about these kitchen table issues, you know, about being able to participate in the American dream. But I'm curious, do you find your constituents, even some of those who supported President Trump, concerned about the erosion and the downright destruction of certain institutions and norms, or do they kind of put it off as that's just Trump being Trump.

00:11:22
Speaker 2: I think there are people who I talk to who are outraged and fearful about the democratic backsliding that this country is undeniably experiencing right now. I'm certainly outraged by it and believe it is not a very real threat, but a very real problem in this moment. It's not abstract, it's not a hypothetical. It is happening, and I think you know since that podcast, it's only gotten more obvious and more extreme, and therefore more and more people are rightfully bringing it up to me, and not just the people who were bringing it up to me eight months ago and a year ago, or ten years ago, for that matter, And so I'm hearing about it more and more, without question. That doesn't mean that we should make it the central point of all of our messaging, because if you truly believe that democracy is on the line in this moment, which I do, then the most important thing for us right now is to build a coalition that can help to protect democracy. And for the folks who are outraged by what we're seeing right now, they see it, they understand the assignment. They're already fighting hard. If we are going to get the kind of numbers we need not just to win the House, but hopefully to win the Senate and eventually to rewin the presidency, which is the only way to stop the democratic backsliding that we're seeing right now, then we're going to have to convince those Trump tolerant voters that just as much as we will defend democracy, we will also so focus as much on the fact that they need affordable housing, affordable childcare, affordable healthcare, affordable groceries. I think when you're scared, it's very easy to fall into a place where you want to see everyone fight in ways that feel viscerally comforting to you. That's an understandable instinct, and some of politics is preaching to the choir. But we also have to have the courage to grow our congregation in this moment, and that means continuing a focus on the economic realities that people are facing. And I will say, we can't separate those things from the democratic backsliding that we're experiencing. How So, in the last election, Donald Trump created an unholy alliance with tech oligarchs and billionaires. He said, you fund my campaign and facilitate my consolidation of power, and I will pay you off with massive tax breaks. Over the last ten months, he has destroyed these life saving programs. He's gutted food assistance, he's past the largest cut to healthcare in American history, all to create a piggy bank that he can then raid to fund just partially those tax breaks for billionaires. And so, when we protect healthcare, for instance, when we protect snap. We're not only helping to save lives for the people who rely on those programs, but we're also taking away the piggybank that Donald Trump is using to fund his consolidation of power and his authoritarian project that is facilitated by these billionaires in tech oligarchs. The second reason is the first speech that I gave on the floor of the House of Representatives. I thought long and hard about what I wanted to talk about, and this was in February, so this was early in the Trump administration, and I decided that I wanted to focus in and touch on the themes of Franklin Roseult's nineteen forty four State of the Union address, which your casual observer would not be aware of what he said in that speech, but it's one of my favorite speeches because it helps to reinforce how connected economic opportunity is with our freedom and our democracy. Because in that speech, which he delivered in the well of that same chamber that I delivered my first speech, he delivered it as war raged on two continents, as Americans were dying in order to defeat tyranny. He talked about how necessitous people are not free people when you're hungry and you're out of a job. That those are the things that dictatorships are made of. When people are hungry, when they're out of a job, when they're angry, when they're frustrated or hopeless and hopeless, right, it leads to two things. That leads either to people hearing that strong man who says I alone can fix it and finding hope in that person, or because they're hopeless, they give up and opt out of the system entirely. When you don't have enough housing or healthcare to go around, when there's not enough food to go around, and you've got that strong man who can then dole it out, it increases their power. It allows him to reward those who are sycophants and punish those who he believes are his enemies. And you see it over the last ten months. They'll call these programs democrat programs. And listen, if you want to call medicaid and Medicare and snap a democratic program, find by me. But what they're saying in that is that these are programs that democrats made and that democrats rely on, and so we're going to punish these people. We're going to punish LGBTQ people because we believe that there are political enemies, because we perceive that the people who rely on those programs or the people who are in those communities are part of our faction that are standing up to us, and we want to punish them. And so when there's scarcity in the economy, it can increase that strong man's power in doling out what little healthcare, what little housing, what few jobs remain.

00:16:33
Speaker 1: So these two issues have to be dealt with simultaneously. You have to have a too pronged approach understanding how interwoven they are. Yes, I'm just curious. As a new member of Congress, you walk around and, as you said, the world presented on social media is often not reality. When you interact with your Republican colleagues, do you ever find areas of common ground? Is it civil? And how do you understand the complete capitulation of the Republican Party to Donald Trump. I'm just curious what you've picked up actually been in Congress.

00:17:13
Speaker 2: It's not hyperbole to say that the modern Republican Party in Congress is a cult of personality. I mean, that's one of the things that's like really jarring to see up close, you go on the floor, and you know, sometimes you can have these poster boards that might have graphs or pictures of your constituents, pictures of a senior highlighting your commitment to Medicare or Social Security. The Republicans will put up these signs behind themselves on the floor of the House, and it'll be like Donald Trump's face gazing off into the distance with fireworks exploding behind him. I mean, it's like bizarre, pitiful behavior. And I mean that's a hallmark of authoritarianism. And that's what they've fostered, a cult of personality. And I think a lot of the Republicans in the House are Republican politicians who, unlike Trump one, don't predate Trump. They rose in Republican politics. They were elected to federal office during the Trump dominance of the Republican Party. And so I think, unlike Trump one, there are a lot more who are true believers, that genuinely believe in Donald Trump. There are others who I think still make the calculus that you know, better for me to be here and to push back quietly or behind the scenes than to stand up and lose my primary and have someone who's a true believer here. I think that's a big all those shrinking portion of the Republican caucus. We see cowardice by some, and we see genuine belief in this Trump project by many others in a growing faction. The closest thing that I can compare Congress to is a reality.

00:18:46
Speaker 1: Show survivor of real hothouse more like Real Housewives.

00:18:50
Speaker 2: And this is not true for everyone, but it's true for some, and certainly the ones that dominate the news. And that is when you are on Real Housewives, the way to get airtime is to pick a fight, it's to throw wine in someone's face, and that behavior gets you attention in this fierce attention economy, But for an institution like Congress, for a workplace, it's completely corrosive and destructive. And for some of these folks, I used to think when I got there, their behavior was in pursuit of attention for powers sake, right, Attention is power, Attention is influence. Attention increases your capacity to have your policies be heard. But I've come to realize that for many of these professional provocateurs in Congress, it's that they are genuinely just addicted to attention. We know that attention on social media is addictive. Right, when you post a picture on social media and it gets a decent number of likes, it's a dopamine hit. But for your typical person posting a picture online, that's a cigarette puff. But when you go viral nationally, that is a hit like the most addictive drug. I mean, it's instantly addictive just off of one high.

00:20:01
Speaker 1: I was gonna say that's like opioids. Yes.

00:20:04
Speaker 2: And one of the most freaquing things I hear about these particularly destructive people in Congress is they were so normal when they got here, But then what happens is they do something innocently well intended that goes viral, and then they get hooked, and as is the case with almost every other addiction, they will start to engage in both self destructive behaviors, but also they will engage in behaviors in search of that high, regardless of the collateral damage for other people too. Part of my job, as someone who's been on the receiving end of people trying to pursue that attention high is to not be an effective vessel for their high.

00:20:45
Speaker 1: How do you do that.

00:20:47
Speaker 2: By not taking the bait, by not giving them the responses that they are seeking in that moment when they're trying to pick a fight with me, because in reality TV, how do you get not just a little bit of airtime, but a season long story gets to have a feud with someone, But that takes two to tango. I'm not going to throw wine back in their face. I'm just going to ignore them. That preserves my effectiveness for my constituents. I also think it helps to present the public with a very clear contrast between who the bullies are and who the bullied is. But I also think that it removes some of the incentive for these people to continue to come after me, because they're not getting the high as easily as they would otherwise get it, and they're not getting the same kind of high because I'm not taking the bait, and therefore they're not getting quite as much attention.

00:21:32
Speaker 1: And the attention isn't sustained. It could be a blip, but it's not a steady flow.

00:21:37
Speaker 2: Exactly, which gives them a bigger high. And I will say that approach has actually also resulted in a number of Republicans not only coming up to me and apologizing for the behavior of other Republicans or implicitly doing so by just being overly welcoming or more aggressively welcoming. But some have said, let's figure out opportunities to work together to show that not everyone's like that. And I'm proud that I've introduced more bipartisan legislation than any other freshmen. That legislation's not the sort of big, controversial, headline grabbing legislation, but it's important legislations. Consumer protections for people who are in debt against these predatory credit repair organizations that charge large upfront fees and provide no service. These are important bills outside of some of the perverse incentives in politics, where you can not only work in a bipartisan way, but actually build relationships and trusts that maybe help you across the aisle navigate some of the foreigny or more controversial, more headline grabing issues too.

00:22:38
Speaker 1: So do you think in a perverse way the cruelty exhibited by she who shall not be named Nancy Mace in a way helped you because it made some people, in their effort to show they're not that person, reach out to you and want to work with you.

00:22:55
Speaker 2: I think what has come my way and my strategy and deal with it has increased my effectiveness. Yes, And all I can say to those who've done it is I hope they get the support and the love that they so clearly desire, and I hope they find the healing that they so clearly need.

00:23:19
Speaker 1: Hi. Everyone, it's Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course covering the news. And I know that to keep doing what I love, I need to start caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why I decided to try the Good Feet stores Personalized arch support system. I met with a Good Feet arch support specialist and after a personalized fitting, I left the store with my three step system designed to improve comfort, balance and support. My feet needs and back are thanking me already. Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store, or book your own free personalized fitting. Let's talk about the latest news on Capitol Hill. Donald Trump just reopened the government. After eight Democratic senators got together with Republicans and Angus King, an independent. They said, you know, we're not going to get anywhere on healthcare. We're not going to get anywhere on extending the Affordable Care Act subsidies with the government that shut down. Meanwhile, we're causing considerable pain to a lot of people by stopping the SNAP benefits, et cetera. And we got to get back to work. And many progressives were outraged, like Bernie Sanders, he called it a disaster. And I know you voted against it, this negotiation to reopen the government. Can you talk about why and how you felt about what some are terming a capitulation and of are saying a necessary step to get back to business.

00:25:04
Speaker 2: The risk to SNAP was a choice by the administration. They have been able to find money for a whole host of pet projects for this president. There was still money in the SNAP contingency funds that they could have used. So the disruption that happened or was potentially happening to SNAP was a choice by the administration. But to your point, very real harm.

00:25:24
Speaker 1: I was going to say, whoever's fault it was? People were suffering, right.

00:25:28
Speaker 2: And inevitably, even if the administration wasn't making all of the choices it was making to disrupt food assistants and other kinds of proactively cruel decisions to make matters worse to play chicken no matter what. A shutdown presents real pain for people. People go without paychecks. Programs that constituents of my small businesses in my state rely on were either ground to a halt or operating less efficiently during the shutdown, and so there's real harm. And I think no one wants a shutdown. We have a responsibility in this moment to do all we can to both reopen government and to have addressed the expiration of the Affordable Care Act tax credits. I have heard from far too many constituents, tens of thousands of constituents of mine, that are seeing their healthcare premiums increase one hundred two hundred three hundred percent, and I could not in good conscience say to them that I'm going to accept this false choice that Republicans had presented, which is that we could either reopen government or solve the health care crisis. We can do both, and we should do both. Obviously, the Republicans were committed to not doing both.

00:26:39
Speaker 1: Do you think they could have been brought to the table, Sarah.

00:26:43
Speaker 2: I think that it would have been worth seeing how the dust settled for a little bit longer. After the elections in New Jersey and Virginia as people were still just starting to go on to healthcare dot CoV during open enrollment and finding these incredibly high premium hikes. I think it would have been worth seeing if those events indeed would change the Republican negotiating position, if enough pressure had come to bear. Because the President had already said we lost the election this year because of the shutdown, you had Republicans speaking out about the problem with the ACA. I think it would have been worth for a little bit longer seeing if that reality would have changed anything. Because the President was saying, abolish the filibuster. I think it would have been worth when he was realizing that that was not a potential path forward with Republicans in the Senate, to see whether he would have ultimately done what he's done throughout his career, which is to throw his Republican colleagues under the bus, because ultimately he wants to get what he wants, and that is, in this case, to get back on firm or footing because he was losing the shutdown fight. I'm not going to sit here and criticize other people's decisions and how they voted. I voted the way I did because obviously I disagree with them, but I also understand that these are really fraught decisions to make, and I think we do ourselves and our democracy a disservice when we try to pretend that every single decision is so morally clear, so obviously black and white, that anyone who disagrees with us is evil. That's just not the kind of politics that I employ. And so I can understand why some people would come to a different conclusion than the one that I did. I felt strongly and I voted no because of it. But I think what's clear now is we've got to just keep up the fight. The American people now understand after the last several weeks that it's Republican's fault that healthcare premiums are skyrocketing, and we're going to continue to bring that message to voters next week, next month, next year, all the way through the next selection, and then, god willing, if we have a majority, do all we can to actually bring down healthcare costs.

00:29:03
Speaker 1: Is that what you're hearing from your constituents, because I know in Delaware more than sixteen thousand people will lose their healthcare subsidies, and about five thousand could lose their medical coverage altogethers that sound about right.

00:29:15
Speaker 2: I've seen estimates of even more Delawareans seeing skyrocketing premiums, and that does not even include all of the Delawareans who will lose their coverage under the Medicaid cuts that are on the horizon in a year.

00:29:28
Speaker 1: So what are you hearing from them about getting back to business and ending the government shutdown?

00:29:34
Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a lot of frustration from my constituents about the votes as they've transpired in the Senate and the House. They feel like some people should have held out longer in defense of their healthcare. And my message to them is I see them, I hear them. I've voted against the deal, and I'm going to keep fighting for the principles that we've been fighting for, not just over the last several weeks, but for my entire political career.

00:30:00
Speaker 1: John Thune promised that this was going to be discussed as part of the negotiations. Angus King told me he thought John Thune was trustworthy. Speaker Johnson seems less inclined as last time I checked. So I guess the question is, did the Democrats get anything out of these negotiations? And was the government shut down ultimately all for nought?

00:30:23
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it was for nought. I think a couple of things. One, there are appropriations bills that have passed that are good bills that are going to buttress snap in the face of disruption and chaos and government. There are really critical investments that are included in those appropriations bills. I do not believe those bills were worth voting in favor of the deal, but there are some things that came out of that deal. What's very clear to me is that in September people were not talking about the ACA TI credits. In September, people couldn't have told you who was to blame for the pending spike in premiums. I think people now know when they go on healthcare dot gov and see their premiums increase two hundred percent, it's because Republicans were so committed to cutting healthcare that they were willing to shut down the government for five weeks.

00:31:25
Speaker 1: But don't you think that Republicans will see, gosh, this is such a vulnerability for us. We need to do something about this, and they may be pushed to negotiate and to extend some of these benefits.

00:31:38
Speaker 2: I think that the only thing that Congressional Republicans are more loyal to than Donald Trump is cutting healthcare for the American people. I don't think that they care. I don't think that they want to fix this. John Thune may very well bring a bill to the floor of the Senate because that's literally the extent of the deal when it comes to the ACA tax credits. Whether it passes or not, I don't know. Probably doesn't, but even if it does, I have no faith that Mike Johnson will bring something to the floor. We're going to do a discharge petition to try to bring something to the floor and have our Republicans have to answer for not signing it on the record. Right, Yes, but Mike Johnson is perpetually having to appease the furthest right faction of his caucus, and they do not want to extend the ACA tax credits. And he has been in their pocket since he became speaker. He has been in their pocket for sure the last ten months. And I don't think they're going to let him bring that bill to the floor. I don't think they're going to let him negotiate with us. And what is clear as Mike Johnson is only doing Donald Trump's bidding and the bidding of the far right people in his caucus. He is not a strong leader. He's just reflective of those two stakeholders that he needs to maintain his power, and one of those stakeholders will prevent him from bringing an ACAA tax credit build to the floor.

00:33:03
Speaker 1: Mike Johnson did finally swear in Arizona's newest representative, Adelita Grihalva, and she immediately signed on to the bipartisan petition to force a vote to release the Epstein files, with the vote planned for next week. Gosh, the whole Epstein thing so much happening. Whether you're talking about Glaine Maxwell getting preferential treatment at this minimum security prison, to Michael Wolf a journalist interacting with Jeffrey Epstein, other names appearing in some of these emails. What happens now? Can you just kind of make sense of this circus for us?

00:33:41
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I will just say I don't know the extent of Donald Trump's involvement with Jeffrey Epstein. I don't know to what degree there is any involvement or knowledge that he had throughout the most prolific child sex trafficking ring in our country's history. But boy is he acting suspicious behave behavior bringing Lauren Bobert into the situation room to try to berate her into taking her name off of the discharge petition, the stonewalling at every turn, the desperation to avoid a vote on releasing the Epstein files, to the point that the Speaker of the House shut the house down for fifty some days. Part of it was because he wanted to pass the continuing resolution, send it over the Senate, and leave town to jam the Senate, But genuinely his motivation for shutting down the House was as much that as it was preventing the swearing in of now Representative at a lad A. Grihalva, knowing that she would be the two hundred and eighteenth signature on this discharge petition. But their intimidation didn't work, and we've hit that two hundred and eighteen mark. I was on the floor with Representative Grihalva when she signed that petition. We're going to have a vote next week. I think we're going to see a ton of Republican defectors. It'll be interesting to see what happens then with an overwhelming vote in the House as it goes over to the Senate. It is incredibly alarming the extent to which Republican leaders will go to cover up and to prevent the kind of transparency that the American people, Democrats, independence and Republicans alike want to see. With the Epstein files. What do you think the fallout is going to be? It must be very hard to predict, but what will it actually do? I know there's a big subset of Donald Trump supporters, people who are part of the MAGA movement, who feel very strongly about these files and about the involvement of a president with a pedophile ring basically right. There are others, I think, maybe who won't be as agitated by what might be in these files. It may be premature, but how do you see this all shaking out? I think it is premature to know for sure, but I think what is clear is that this whole sequence of events with the Epstein files is one more example of Donald Trump and Republican politicians breaking their promises, saying one thing ahead of the election and doing something entirely different once they have power. And I think that that is a theme for this president and for this administration, and for Republicans in Congress. They said they were going to lower prices. They aren't. They said that they weren't going to cut Medicaid. They did. They said that they weren't going to touch Medicare. They did. They said that they would release the files. They're trying not to. And I think that that's probably the biggest takeaway. Regardless of what's in the files at the end of the day, regardless of what we get when and if they're released in greater volume, regardless of all of that, it reinforces the reality that this is an administration of broken promises.

00:36:47
Speaker 1: You and I met Gosh almost a decade ago, and it was at a time when great strides were being made culturally. I think for the LGBTQ community, gay marriage pass in twenty fifteen, there seemed to be the beginning of a greater understanding of trans people. But now you don't need me to tell you this. There has been such a backlash, particularly against trans Americans. In Trump's inauguration speech, he declared that there were only two genders. He's attempted to cut funding for schools that teach about gender ideology. He banned trans athletes from competing in women's sports. He banned gender affirming care for trans kids, signed an executive order banning trans troops serving in the military. I've thought about you a lot as this has been happening in Ergo why I texted you and you never texted me back. But why do you think this backlash happened? Do you believe looking back that the pendulums may be swung too far? How do you account for it? I don't think the pendulum swung too far. I think, more than anything else, the reason why this has happened is because there was a well funded, well coordinated effort to fear monger and scapegoat around a vulnerable community. Trans people were just gaining visibility. Trans people were at the start of mainstream political influence. La Verne Cox was on the cover of Time magazine.

00:38:24
Speaker 2: On the cover of Time, Katie Kuric was doing a great documentary, and that put a target on our back because we were making progress, right, but that progress had not yet been matched by a level of public understanding that would inoculate us to the effectiveness of the politics of backlash. And when you have that reality right, you have a community of rising equality, of rising progress still shaky ground that that progress is built on, which is not the community's fault. It's just sort of the reality of new progress. Right It's always most fragile at the start, and then that is met most explicitly by a well funded, well coordinated right wing effort to demonize, fear monger and scapegoat that community. It's had toxic consequences, dangerous consequences. It is a reminder that progress is not linear. It's often two steps forward and one step back. It is a frightening time in this country to be trans. The policies will have real consequences for real human beings. And the coarseness and meanness in our politics alone on trans issues is about as dehumanizing as I've seen in modern politics. And we can't give up our capacity to change people's minds, to rebuild and to strengthen public support for the dignity of all people, including trans people. That means hard, painful, often unfair conversations. It means meeting people where they are. It means welcoming in in perfect allies for a conversation that allow them to gain greater perfection. And that's not going to feel great. But I am not willing to give up my power and my voice to bring about change. And I think that we have to recognize that so much of our power as a LGBTQ community has been the power of our proximity. When we are present and we are willing to be in often difficult conversations with people who are not yet where we want them to be in their journey of understanding. But because throughout the last several decades we've been willing to be proximate and engage in those conversations, we have been able to build greater understanding, particularly for gay folks. Greater understanding that has made not only the progress possible, but the progress then more permanent.

00:41:02
Speaker 1: It's this well financed and deliberate anti trans campaign couple with ignorance, honestly, that made it so potent and so effective.

00:41:13
Speaker 2: Well, and that's what I mean, that sort of lack of understanding.

00:41:16
Speaker 1: Right, So that leads me to talk to you about how we increase understanding. I thought it was interesting that with Ezra Kleine you talked about people understand sexual orientation better than gender identity, because with sexual orientation, everybody sort of loves and luss and they can relate to that and sort of understand. Okay, I kind of get that. With gender identity, it's much harder for people who don't have that to relate to. It. Aren't trends who haven't been transit in the closet right right? And so how do we do a better job of reversing this demonization and this lack of understanding when it comes to trans people? For me, doing that documentary was extremely helpful and hopefully helpful to other people who kind of went on this journey with me. And I know you and I talked back in the day about the reason why the documentary was effective and persuasive was I was the avatar for the ignorant person or the uneducated person, and through my journey of discovery, I became more knowledgeable and therefore more understanding and compassionate. And how do we help people get there? Right now? We're at a deficit right when it comes to understanding, and I would love to be an ally and help with that, But how do we do it? Because it's so hard right now?

00:42:47
Speaker 2: There are a number of things we have to do. We have to be willing. Not everyone. I'm not asking everyone to do this, but there has to be a continued effort around this trans one oh one right of people sharing their stories and what it felt like for me. For instance, when I was still in the closet, it felt like a constant feeling of homesickness, just this unwavering ache in the pit of my stomach that would only go away when I could be seen and affirmed as myself. And it was a homesickness that only grew with age. The older I got, and the more fulfilled I got in my professional life, in my academic career, all of that only reinforced the fact that I was watching my one life pass by someone I knew I wasn't And I still know how hard it is to understand, well, how do you know you're this when that's not what you were perceived to be born as? And I can't explain everything, but I do think that your documentary does a really good job of explaining the fact that we might not be able to understand everything. And look, I don't know what it feels like to be depressed, but I know that that's a real phenomenon for people. And I don't have to be able to understand what it feels like to be depressed to understand that that is a real thing, and that people who are depressed are worthy of support and care and love so that they can live their best lives. I think one of the things that your documentary does so powerfully is, yes, it tells the story and maybe allows some people to enter into that experience of being trans sort of viscerally a little bit more, but it also allows people to understand that, look, trans people are a reality of human diversity, and regardless of what you think about gender in this abstract, academic, intellectual sense, you've got people who are real people. We have to decide are we going to treat them with dignity and society? Are we going to create space for them to live in society fully and freely with happiness, so that at the end of their lives they don't look back at their life with regret, so they can get to the end of their lives having lived their life to the fullest, which is all anyone wants. And so if trans people are real, which they are, then the question for all of us is then how do we treat people? And I think if you can get there, you can get most people into a solid pla of broad support. They might not always agree with every single policy, but they'll be there with good will and good intentions and recognize the fundamental humanity of the community that's being discussed. And that gets me to the next thing that I do think is important, which is on issues of gender identity. I think across our politics we have just lost this capacity to have challenging conversations, to have painful conversations, to differentiate between people who are committed in opposition to your dignity and people who are entering a conversation with goodwill and good intentions and don't understand. We have to be able to make a distinction between those two types of people, and I think we've lost that distinction, and it has resulted in us too often treating anyone who's not with us one hundred percent as therefore an opposition to us one hundred percent.

00:45:50
Speaker 1: Kind of a purity test that you talk about that, I think progressives sometimes fall victim too, that if you say anything that is slightly off a specific agenda, then you're evil.

00:46:05
Speaker 2: I think in our politics we don't grapple with the fact that people don't know what they don't know.

00:46:15
Speaker 1: If you're a woman navigating life transitions like pregnancy, infertility, parenthood, menopause, or caring for aging parents. Connecting with a licensed therapist is a great way to stay centered and find support. A therapist can help you navigate the hormonal shifts and life chapters that come standard with being female. Talkspace therapists are here to listen and help you process, gain insights, and develop coping strategies for whatever you're experiencing. Talkspace Virtual Therapy is covered by many insurance plans, and most insured members pay a fifteen dollars copay, often less. No insurance, no problem. Now get eighty five dollars off of your first month with the promo code Katie when you go to talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. Match with a licensed therapist today at talkspace dot com slash Katiecuric. You also use the word grace a lot, which I think is so appropriate, which is to me, compassion for someone's lack of understanding.

00:47:29
Speaker 2: Well, and I think also not only compassion for someone's lack of understanding, but just this recognition that one of the reasons why I am a Democrat, one of the reasons why you know, my starting place on policy is from a more liberal or progressive perspective. Is because I believe in the dignity of every human being. I believe that people are whole people. I do not believe that people are just their worst action, or just their worst thought, or just their worst word. And for me, that principle that every person has inherent dignity, that every person is worthy of being treated with dignity, and that no one is their worst action. And that doesn't mean there shouldn't be accountability. It doesn't mean that people shouldn't express how someone's action makes them feel. It doesn't mean that when people are doubling down on cruelty and meanness that we should just well, okay, I'm going to ignore that. It means, though, starting from that basic place of dignity, creating space through that grace for people to grow. I think that's the only way we move forward. And again, it doesn't always feel great. But I'm in this work because I want to make progress. I want to change people's hearts and minds. I want to change public opinion on all of the issues that I am passionate about, and the only way to do that is to be in conversation with people and to start from a place of mutual respect and dignity. And again, if someone's not showing me respect, that doesn't mean I have to stay in the conversation with them. But I'm going to give people a chance. You know, this is a moment for us to decide. We've talked a lot about this authoritarian project, to decide whether we genuinely believe in democracy, not as a talking point, not as an abstraction, not only when it's going right for us, whether we genuinely believe it. Because democracy can only persist if we maintain our faith in other people's capacity to change through nonviolent, peaceful political discourse.

00:49:26
Speaker 1: And in this day and age, it's so hard to do it because so many and I know you've talked about this, Sarah, and I couldn't agree more. So much of our political discourse air quotes, is being done online. People write things to me they would never say to my face.

00:49:41
Speaker 2: Coirs, colleagues of mine write things to me that they objectively do not say to my face.

00:49:47
Speaker 1: And so we have to create spaces for that, which is really hard to do.

00:49:51
Speaker 2: I think it is hard, and I know it asks a lot more of unimpacted community to enter into that conversation than it does as for someone whose position I might find harmful or offensive but just holds it casually. It is asking a lot more of me.

00:50:10
Speaker 1: It reminds me of when I did that documentary. When I would interview a couple of the trans folks who I featured, they would say, it's not my job to educate people about my gender identity. No, this is why they created Google in essence, and I always thought, yes, I understand, that is a huge burden to have to lead with that in every conversation, or in too many conversations. Is asking a lot. On the other hand, I thought, gosh, is this in some ways a missed opportunity.

00:50:43
Speaker 2: You know? One of the things I actually disagreed with Harvey Milk about was that everyone needed to come out, that everyone had this responsibility to come out everywhere because I was the only way we're going to create change, and I thought that that was an unfair burden. I still think that's an unfair burden to place on an already vulnerable and marginalized community. People have to make the best decisions for themselves, and if they feel comfortable sharing who they are and sharing the wholeness of who they are with other people wonderful. For me, It's been a liberating experience. I don't think everyone in the community has to bear that responsibility, but for those who are willing to go in those spaces, for those who are willing to effectively meet people where they are, in those painful, unfair, difficult conversations, we have to create space for those people to do it. Meeting people where they are is not selling out. It's what this work is and it's how we build progress. It reminds me of what doctor Oz said. I don't often quote doctor Oz, especially these days, but I went on a show to talk about my documentary and he did say something that I thought was very profound in its simplicity, which was, it's hard to hate up close. Yes, And I so believe that. I wanted to ask you about schools because I feel like a lot of the stirm and drang around trans issues are really centered at schools. And we read that forty seven percent of Americans, according to Pew, think it should be illegal for public school districts to teach about gender identity and elementary schools. So I guess the question that I've struggled with how do you create an inclusive environment for all kids without some parents worrying that it's too much, too soon, or it's a bridge too far. Well, I always believe that we should have age appropriate curriculum regardless of what the topic is. Regardless of what the subject is, one belief that I have is that no one is too young to learn to be kind. This is a big, complicated, diverse world, and growing up is already hard enough, and growing up different is particularly hard in this day and age. Regardless of what identity we're talking about, regardless of what community we're talking talking about. At the end of the day, at a minimum, we should just guarantee that people understand that the diversity of our society makes us beautiful, and that treating people with kindness and respect, regardless of what that difference is, everyone should start from a place of kindness and respect. And I don't think that anyone is too young to learn that basic principle. And I would hope that, regardless of where you fall on particular issues on LGBTQ rights, that most people could agree with that basic principle.

00:53:36
Speaker 1: The anti trans rhetoric in this recent presidential campaign and in the Virginia gubernatorial race. I'm curious how effective you think this is and what the Democrats can do to inoculate themselves from being kind of pigeonholed into these transpositions that voters don't seem to really care about, but that are used to gin up this sort of visceral antagonism against certain candidates. What is the answer.

00:54:10
Speaker 2: I think part of it is we as a party have to have a bold economic agenda. The ad that came out against Harris in twenty twenty four one, it was like this hodgepodge of all of the right wing greatest hits. It was trans immigrant people who are incarcerated all in one. But the line that I think reinforced for some voters a disconnect that they had with our party was they didn't feel like we were focused on broad economic issues.

00:54:40
Speaker 1: You had your priorities screwed up, is what they thought.

00:54:43
Speaker 2: I think some voters have felt that way, and I think that is in part a byproduct of the fact that we haven't had a clear enough and bold enough economic agenda. When we've had power, we have not delivered it enough, and when we have been running, we have not been clear and focused enough on it.

00:55:00
Speaker 1: Now.

00:55:01
Speaker 2: The reality in the last selection in twenty twenty four, I should say, and in twenty twenty five, is that the party that is actually obsessed with cultural war issues, the party that is spending money and perpetually talking about trans issues, is actually the Republican Party. When some earl seers and Virginia spent fifty four percent of her ad budget on trans ads, and I think the public is starting to wake up to that fact that it's not the Democratic Party that is hyper obsessed with talking about trans people, it's the Republican Party that is hyper obsessed. And I think in Virginia you saw that very clearly, and I think Abigail Spanburger pursued that case really effectively. I also think Abigail ran a campaign that was focused on affordability. The contrast of this candidate being out there talking about affordability with a laser focus on it, and when some earl sears hyper fixated on bathrooms and trans athletes really reinforced that disconnect. I thought Abigail and Mikey in New Jersey really demonstrated that our party can be principled and pragmatic all at the same time. Neither of them through trans people under the bus. Neither of them endorsed blanket policies that treat every trans person the same in a discriminatory fashion. Both of them held true to their values, their principles, and their policies, and they met voters where they are. They did not shune in shame. They extended grace. They recognized that some people have understandable concerns or desires for nuance, that rules should be made in the context of sports and the places that are best able to make those rules, or individual athletic associations that understand their sports the best and can make these rules free of political interference, like we've seen with four hundred and thirty five members of the House of Representatives believing that it's their job to micromanage third grade soccer. That was effective, and they were principled and pragmatic. The elections in Virginia and New Jersey reinforced that it's a false choice that Democrats can win when we're true to ourselves and also engage with voters with respect and understanding.

00:57:10
Speaker 1: Do you believe that should be the guiding principles for the mid terms? Is affordability? The new it's the economy stupid.

00:57:18
Speaker 2: Yes. All of the candidates that ran who won in the twenty twenty five election, whether it was Mikey, cheryls, Zoron Mamdani, or Abigail Spanberger, all three of them employed three kinds of politics incredibly effectively. One is the politics of affordability, that hyper focus on making the American dream affordable and accessible for everyone. The second was a politics of curiosity and not judgment. They talked to voters across the political divide. The first video that Zoron Mamdanni went viral for was a video of him having respectful dialogue finding common ground with Trump voters on the street. The third was a politics of place. All of them very much rooted their politics in their commitment to their neighbors, to the community, to the state, to the city that they were running to represent or govern, and that common identity, which the Republicans do very effectively with that America first Moniker. Rooting your politics in your community and your neighbors rather than your partisan or ideological affiliation. That is transcendent. And so whether you were running in a red area or a blue area, whether you're progressive or a moderate, you can run and win when you employ those three politics effectively, the politics of affordability, the politics of curiosity, in the politics of place.

00:58:30
Speaker 1: When you look toward the mid terms, how concerned are you about the tip for tat redistricting battles that are going on in the country because it seems like Republicans may, in fact, as its stands, gain one seat in the House. Is that going to be insurmountable for Democrats?

00:58:50
Speaker 2: I think what we've seen on redistricting is the perfect example of fighting hard and fighting smart. We had to meet fire with fire. Republicans, if left to their own devices, were going to redistrict in so many states that they could have had a net gain that would have made it much more challenging, if not potentially insurmountable, for Democrats to effectively compete for the House with these largely unprecedented mid decade partisan redistricting efforts. California responded in kind that dramatically mitigated the impact of Texas. We just saw recently. Utah, through fair maps in their courts, will potentially be having a blue seat created in Salt Lake City. If we had just let Republicans pursue this redistricting strategy, with a completely clear runway, we could have seen them lock Democrats out of competition in free and fair elections for a generation or more. But because Democrats responded in the places that they had power, we were able to mitigate the impact. So, whether it's a net gain for Republicans of wan to three four, as long as it's in single digits, I think we will be able to overcome whatever slight advantage Republicans gain in this battle. And what I always say to folks who want to see Democrats fight as hard as possible in this moment, I say, if you want us to fight like blue state governors, you've got to give us the power of blue state governors. That means getting us the majority in twenty twenty six, so that we have the levers of power in the House of Representatives to hold this administration accountable, to serve as a check, and to do all that we can with the power that we would have to protect our democracy and ultimately restore care and protect people's pocketbooks.

01:00:39
Speaker 1: In closing, you've been a member of Congress for ten months. What do you think is the most valuable lesson you've learned so far? And how has your expectation matched the reality of what it's like to do this job.

01:00:56
Speaker 2: As someone who had been in the state legislature, had worked in national advocacy, had spent a lot of time on the hill, knew a lot of history. I don't think anyone can realize what it's like until you were there. The Capital is such a cacophony of feedback and noise, the world's most pivotal and impactful reality show that you could be stepping into. And again, that's a sad indictment of what Congress is like, and it's hard to fathom until and unless you were there. I think the biggest lesson that I take away from in this moment is that with so much on the line, we're going to have to do hard things. It's not going to feel great all the time. It's not going to be fun and fair. It's not going to always feel like we're moving forward. But we are going to have to both play the short term game and the long game if we're going to make that progress permanent. There's something unsatisfied buying in how long change takes. But one of the things that I take solace in is the fact that change takes time. As unfair as that is, and as unsatisfying as that is, we can try to make it as fast as possible, and we must make it as fast as possible. But the fact that it's hard, that is a feature of democracy, not a bug of it, because it also means that those on the other side don't get everything they want in one foul swoop, and so as unsatisfying as it can be, it's also a reflection of the fact that we maintain a healthy democracy. But there's a give and take that we can have these painful conversations out in the open, and that while it might be two steps forward and one step back in the long course of history, the arc of the moral universe will bend toward justice.

01:02:48
Speaker 1: I've so enjoyed and appreciated this conversation, Sarah. Thank you so much for doing this and for fighting the good fight, and for not giving up, and for putting up with so much bs, which I know is must be really hard and painful, but carrying yourself with that word you often use such grace.

01:03:12
Speaker 2: Thank you. It makes a lot easier. Having great friends and family and everything back in Delaware makes all of the things down in DC worthwhile. Thanks for having me.

01:03:27
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening everyone. If you have a question for me, a subject you want us to cover, or you want to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world, reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would love to hear from you. Next Question is a production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kuric Media. The executive producers are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz, and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian Weller composed our theme. For more information about today's episode, or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call, go to the description in the podcast app, or visit us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi. Everyone, it's Katiekuric. You know I'm always on the go between running my media company, hosting my podcast, and of course covering the news, and I know that to keep doing what I love, I need to start caring for what gets me there, my feet. That's why I decided to try the Good feet stores personalized arch support system. I met with a Good Feet arch support specialist and after a personalized fitting, I left the store with my three step system designed to improve comfort, balance and support my feet, knees, and back b are. Thank you me already. Visit goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store, or book your own free personalized fitting. If you're a woman navigating life transitions like pregnancy, infertility, parenthood, menopause, or caring for aging parents, connecting with a licensed therapist is a great way to stay centered and find support. A therapist can help you navigate the hormonal shifts and life chapters that come standard with being female. Talkspace therapists are here to listen and help you process, gain insights, and develop coping strategies for whatever you're experiencing. Talkspace Virtual Therapy is covered by many insurance plans, and most insured members pay a fifteen dollars copay often less. No insurance, no problem. Now get eighty five dollars off of your first month with the promo code Katie when you go to talkspace dot com slash Katiecouric hatch with a licensed therapist today at talkspace dot com. Slash Katie Couric