A Chat with the Designer of the Ryder Cup Venue

00:00:00
Speaker 1: I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset. When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

00:00:05
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball in a bride egg Friday Egg the dread and Friday Frida Egg Egg Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the golf course. Welcome to the fridaygg Golf Podcast. I'm Garrett Morrison, and today we're talking about the design of Marco Simone Golf and Country Club in Italy, which will host the Ryder Cup next week. My guest is Dave Samson, who's a designer for European Golf Design. Dave was the lead architect in the recent redesign of Marco Simone. This redesign was done with the Ryder Cup specifically in mind, and I'm really grateful that Dave took time out of his busy schedule this close to the event to talk to me. Now, I'll put my cards on the table. I have not been to Marcos Simone, but just looking at it from afar, it doesn't seem like the kind of golf course that I tend to enjoy, at least as it's presented right now. It's got narrow fair ways, thick rough, the whole deal, right. But the thing is this is a course purpose built for the Ryder Cup, not for my enjoyment. So even if I'm not a huge fan of its style of architecture, it might very well be an outstanding host for this event. It's got a great setup for spectators, lots of amphitheater holes, lots of room to move around. It's going to be loud, it's going to be crazy, and there are great views of Rome. Maybe that is a big portion of what we want out of a Ryder Cup venue. So in talking to Dave, what I really want to find out is what specifically goes into designing a Ryder Cup host. How do you make the infrastructure work, how do you achieve spectator flow, what kinds of holes work well for match play? And don't worry, I will also ask him about the narrow fairways and the thick rough, because this is the Fridagg Golf Podcast and that's what you expect from us. So after this short break, I'll be back with Dave Sampson of European Golf Design. This episode of the Frida Egg Golf Podcast is brought to you by Cisco as Golf evolves, so do the people who help support its future. Cisco has an initiative called Tea Up Tomorrow aimed at the next generation of golfers. Tea Up Tomorrow wants to provide access to the game through innovative technology, partnerships and investments. It supports organizations like the USGA, the APGA Underrated Golf, and the LPGA and USGA Girls Golf Program. Through these partnerships, Cisco wants to help usher in a more connected and inclusive environment for people who want to experience golf. Right now, for instance, the APGA Cisco Invitational is underway at Pebble Beach Resorts. Cisco is a big supporter of the APGA Tour, which is all about bringing greater diversity to the game. So check out Cisco's Tea Up Tomorrow initiative and follow the APGA Cisco Invitational. All right, back to the episode, So, Dave, I understand that you got your start in building architecture. How did you make the transition to golf architecture.

00:03:53
Speaker 1: That's true. I was studying building architecture in starting in ninety seven down University in Port Elizabeth in South Africa. Yeah, and I mean the passion was always golf architecture and trying to find a way to getting into that. And then just by by chance, I mean my grandfather who was Welsh obviously living in the UK. He was very ill when I was, you know, completing my thesis and came over to see him say goodbye. And on the way back to South Africa, my good friend who was living with at university in my first few days, first few years, he was living in London and he gave me the Golf World magazine and said, I know you're interested. There was a designer whole competition and so did he throw airport us, scribbled down a few entries, put him in the post and I was, you know, the lucky winner. So that was back in two thousand and two. But it wasn't two thousand and three. I came over to the UK looking to sort of explore the opportunities. I took a job as a cricket analyst for one of the counties here. Crickets another one of my passions. And yeah, but it wasn't until two thousand and four that I actually got a got a break with European golf design who actually ran the competition with Golf World magazine.

00:05:18
Speaker 2: So what was the whole that won you the contest? Do you was there a specific one?

00:05:25
Speaker 1: Well, I remember it finally. I mean it was a it was a It was a course in Finland. And obviously, the as I mentioned, the project or the competition was being run by European Golf Design. It was a Part five and obviously, being you know, in the architecture or studying architecture, I was able to read a map and sort of I played golf and you could see where the previous green was, you could see where the next tea was, and it was pretty much connect the dots and yeah, just designed a Part five as a few options down on a piece of paper, and one of them, I guess was the one that looked closest to the to what the architect wants at the holster looked like anyway, So you know that's the way I see it.

00:06:06
Speaker 2: Anyway, So you ended up working for European Golf Design. How how did that come about? So there was a bit of a delay between winning the contest and actually going to work for this firm.

00:06:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so the wind came at the end of two thousand and two, and then you know, part of the prize was going into the EGED officers, So I sort of sawt as a foot in the door and pretty much banged the door down as much as I possibly could. But taking that analyst to that cricket analyst role, you know, that gave me a bit of free time to read up a bit more on golf architecture, and then at the end of that two thousand and three I took a job in the building architecture at an architects firm, and then it wasn't until two thousand and four. As part of the prize, you get to go out and see that golf holding construction, and on the back off the back of that trip, Jeremy Slessor are my Name's managing director called me in and yeah, a couple of weeks later offered me a job as a design associate.

00:07:10
Speaker 2: For people who aren't familiar with European golf design. Could you just talk about the firm's relationship with the European Tour and what kinds of projects you take on.

00:07:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, So EGED started back in nineteen ninety two as a joint venture company between the European Tour and IMG. In the past four years IMG sold their share, but we are still a company half owned by the.

00:07:40
Speaker 3: European Tool And yeah, I mean EGD do you know a lot of work, a lot of work for the tour Back in the day when we were half owned by IMG, we did a lot of a lot of work for a lot of signature work as well.

00:07:56
Speaker 1: But you know, we do the full range range of golf courses, from new builds all the way to little renovation jobs. You know, nothing's too big, nothing's too small.

00:08:07
Speaker 2: And yeah, in terms of the high profile projects that the firm has done, Ryder Cup venues are included in those. I believe the Golf Nacional is one of the projects that the firm took on Celtic Manor. And so what are some of the courses that people might have encountered in viewing televised golf over the past couple of decades that EGED has been involved in.

00:08:34
Speaker 1: Wow, well, I'll definitely say that Ryder Cup is right at the very top of the list of high profile jobs that you know our company has worked on. I think you know it's one of the highlights. So yeah, I mean the Golf Nationale. We weren't heavily involved in the original design, but we were involved in some modifications to get the golf course ready for that rider. Another one of our architects, Ross mc murray, he was involved in the Golf National as well as being you know, the lead on Celtic Manor back in twenty ten getting that course ready. You know, there were nine new holes and then had to modify nine of the existing course to make up the Ryder Cup for twenty ten. So I mean in terms of of courses that you know we've worked on, you know, we've worked on recently held PGA Championship but went with the latest renovation there, so we not one hundred percent of the year, but let's say five to seven years back, so you know that's a that's a huge project that people will be familiar with. You know, personally worked on Avion Krncsier, Omega Masters up in the mountains and the Alps Royal Greens where the where they tend to host every event in Saudi Arabia at the moment. So yeah, we've been involved in numerous projects. Irish opens Cotton House. I'm just trying to think PJ PJ Caluna, which is now called Camerrell down in Girona in Spain. We worked on that project. Woburn we're hosted British Masters. So yeah, there's been there's been a there's a there's a long list of courses. I don't have that list in front of me right so this very second, but.

00:10:32
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a that's pretty good recollection there. So people get the idea A lot of a lot of courses that have hosted European tour events are you know the firm has been involved in So why don't we get why don't we get right into what I think people probably want to hear about most You are the lead architect at Marcos Simone Golfing country Club in Italy, which is going to host the Ryder Cup in a couple of weeks. Here, can you just tell me a little about the history of Marcus Simone and then how European golf design got involved there.

00:11:09
Speaker 1: So Marcusimoni was originally designed in the early nineties, but as part of the bid by the Italian Golf Federation, we were brought in in twenty fourteen as part of the federation and with IMG at the time to review a couple of sites in and around the Rome region. Following that review, it was Marcus Simony was chosen as their candidate course for the bid, and then Marcus Simoni obviously well the Italian Golf Federation was successful in winning that bid in twenty fifteen, and then my involvement came sort of twenty seventeen was when you know, I was sort of brought on board, sort of head up the design side of things.

00:11:55
Speaker 2: What was your basic brief at Marcus Simone in the past few years.

00:12:00
Speaker 1: Well, we were pretty much given a blank canvas. Part of the you know, part of the bid document was to sort of you know try and you know lengthen some teas, change a few greens to try and get the old course you know, up to you know, sort of competition length. But as part of the award ryder Cup Europe were like, you know, the course can't we can't retro fit in hospitality and road networks and all these things in and around you know, the old course. The old course also had a lot of you know, crossing points, screens to tease you know, which is you know, proves a bit of a nightmare to try and move spectators and the players. So we always knew that the site was pretty much a blank canvas. But one of the fortunate things is that the Marcosmoni Golf Club, you know, they had twenty seven holes, so there was the space to try and to to fit in a longer golf course, anti factory in all those things like spectator villages, a longer practice range, you know, all that sort of other infrastructure which comes with, you know, a project of this size.

00:13:13
Speaker 2: How do you go about creating the infrastructure that a golf course needs to host a Ryder Cup. This is something I've always wondered about because it's insane, right, and it's very different from just designing a country club.

00:13:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, no, it's totally different. But I mean, you know, having that alliance with the tour and then being you know, they've had multiple rider Cups, so they you know, we're following their brief and they're saying how big the hospitality units are, how wide the roads are, how you know, stage merchandise, teen catering. You know, they providing us with that brief and then it's you know, it's sort of a collaborative process with ourselves, the golf club, even you know, the Italian Federation trying to maximize the opportunities that any site gives you. And I think, you know, one of the things that that Marcus Simony, you know, for the people that will see it on TV, you may not get to fully appreciate how much elevation change is across the site. So you know, we really sought as as you know, as an opportunity, a lot of potential, especially you know for the spectators. Maybe not so much for the players and the caddies going to walk up and down all those hills, but you know, for the spectators, I think it's going to be a means.

00:14:27
Speaker 2: What are some of the things that you could do in the design of a normal course that is not supposed to host a massive golf event that you cannot do at a writer Cup course? Does that question make sense? Like, you know, what what are some of the limitations that end up being imposed by you know, we've got to host this huge event.

00:14:52
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, you know, if you I mean, if I take the site at Marcus Simony for instance, you know, you know, on a on a brand new golf course, you're going out then and you're trying to find, you know, the eighteen best golf holes for that site, you know, but at Marcus Simoni, you know you're factoring in, you know, what's going to be the eighteen best holes. From a spectator point of view, how are we going to get you know, the hospitality units and where the road's going to go, and you know, going back to the routing of the golf course, I think that's one of the strengths from a ryder Cup point of view. You know, we had this little well it wasn't it's not a little, it's it's a central core area a valley, and we you know, we try to maximize that because that gives you that natural embankment for the hospitality and the spectators, you know, the golfers down low, you know, the spectators all looking down on this. And I think you know, you know, rooting the golf course and factoring in all those requirements for the roads and the hospitality, you know, you know something that's you know, we need to we need to get right, and hopefully we have got right.

00:15:57
Speaker 2: What are the keys to good spectator flow? I've always sort of wondered.

00:16:01
Speaker 1: About this space. Space space would be it? You know, you can't have any to any pinch points really, and making sure that you know, the golf holes, there's no crossovers, you know, having having crossovers from the greens to the tees is just it's just a nightmare for them. And obviously we're going to have forty five thousand people, you know, walking the fairways and walking, you know, walk behind the ropes here at Marcus Money. So yeah, there's a lot of people to move and you need a lot of space.

00:16:33
Speaker 2: I'm realizing now that the North Course at Los Angeles Country Club, which just which host of the US opened this year, which I think is one of the greatest golf courses in the world, and it's a wonderful walking course for golfers, yep. But there are a lot of crossovers at that course, a lot of places where you're where you're kind of where there are these gathering points of greens and tees kind of in similar spots, and usually to get from one green to an other tea, you kind of pass nearby another greener tea, and those spots always kind of created problems at LACC. And so I guess what you're saying is the goal is if you're if you're fabricating a course for a Ryder Cup, then ideally you're not going to have those kinds of situations.

00:17:18
Speaker 1: You're trying to avoid them as much as you possibly can. Yeah, for sure. But I mean in saying that, I mean, the one thing about Marcus Money is because of the elevation change, you know, the viewers get such a the spectator gets such a good view over multiple golf holes, which is which is one of the positives. So even though you know there's there's a section on the back nine twelve, thirteen, sixteen, fifteen two t's, they're really compact, but you know they're obviously going to you know, manage those areas a little bit more. But you know, because there's there's a high ground to the right of twelve green and thirteen and whole thirteen, you know there's a huge stand going in there, which gives you know, the spectative you know, views over you know, up to nine golf holes. So it's those sort of things, looking for those opportunities, you know, not only from the you know, the golf ole point of view, but also from the spectator point of view, trying to maximize them.

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00:19:47
Speaker 1: Check it out.

00:19:53
Speaker 2: Well, let's get into some of the golfing characteristics of the course. Why don't we start with a couple of holes that you think will generate a lot of interest during the Ryder Cup. You know, in TV coverage usually they like to focus on a couple of they kind of latch on, Yeah, what do you think those holes are going to be at Marcos Somono.

00:20:13
Speaker 1: Well, I think any Ryder Cup, everyone's going to be talking about the first and you know, this first is I mean, i'd probably say it's well, it's a midd length part four slight place, slightly uphill right to left. But it's all about you know, the pressure and the grand stands and just you know, I mean, I've played a T shirt there was not off the first last month and there was no obviously nobody in there, but you can just imagine the pressure that these guys are going to be feeling when they walk, you know, under the grandstand and come out onto the first. So, you know, the first is all about how these guys are going to be feeling in the pressure of that. But I think, you know, we coming back to the routing we've got. You know, we try to, as I say, try to maximize the sort of valley where you've got the first and then the players go off and they play holes two, three, six, and then we've brought them back into you know, when we were pitching this this valley core area, we sort of pitch it to the Italians as the colosseum that we're going to try and create, you know, with all the hospitality on the high ground all around this valley. But so you know, you play the first holes two, three, six, and they come back in in on the seventh, And I think the seventh is one of those it's a path three at plays just over two hundred yards downhill to a green that slopes from front to back, and you know there's just there's just trouble everywhere. So I think, you know, it's one of those shots where you know there are there there are a few on the golf course where the player just has to commit one hundred percent to that shot where they're going to be hitting a seven or eight iron into this green. So the seventh and then you know on the back nine. You know that those holes are played over the more dramatic and undulating terrain. And the back nine we've you know, so we've got holes that are just sort of half par holes would be best to describe them. You know, a lot of risk award holes. There's eleven and sixteen which can potentially play as drivable par four's. The par five twelve is pretty short for these guys. You know, plays on a dog leg from right to left, and it's just you know, which bunker on the inside of the dog leg these guys are willing to take on. But any drive there, you know, the second shots downhill pretty it's a pretty easy second shot for these guys. So the twelfth they're going to be dealing in eagles and birdies. You then got the short thirteenth, which is just a flick of a wedge. But in amongst that, you've then got you know, some really tough holes fourteen and fifteen, which are probably two of the hardest holes on the golf course. And then and then they come back into this coliseum area for sixteen, which is you know, team the Tea's on one of the highest points of the golf course, views over Saint Peter's in Rome in the distance driveable par four you know, and I think you know eleven, sixteen, seven, those are probably going to be some of the key holes.

00:23:03
Speaker 2: Could you just take me through the finishing stretch of three three holes? So you know sixteen you mentioned already. Yeah, then you have seventeen and eighteen, so yeah, just take me through that stretch. And how did you think through the design there?

00:23:17
Speaker 1: Well, I mean so, I mean it obviously comes back to the routing, and like sixteen, we were really keen to get them back into the central sixteen and seventeen play in the valley, So sixteen, you know, we wanted obviously we knew. You know, it's interesting that you mentioned about the final three holes, but Ryder Cup matches don't tend to go to the final three holes. You know, we obviously want them to and it'd be great if the you know, if the final match on Sunday goes down eighteen. But you know, as as I said, fourteen to fifteen are really tough holes, and then you've got sixteen, which is the driver will four seventeen is in a way, I mean, it plays in totally the different direction. It's a path three plays in a different direction to seven, but it's that other shot where it's long, you know, skinny green, got multiple levels in the green and they've just got to it's one of those one hundred percent you've just got to hit the shot. You've got to hit the green otherwise you know you're going to really struggle to make a pow. And then you know, eighteen, you know, one of another one of those team grounds on the high highest points of the site views of Saint Peter's placed thirty meters downhill. Yeah, all the way back downhill to the clubhouse. But another a par five where you know the players can reach into hit the fairway they can reach into, So you know, sixteen and eighteen, you know, another one of those examples of half par holes where people are going to be dealing with birdies. Birdies are probably only going to have a hole and an eagle is probably gonna win them. But then you've got seventeen, which is you know, is a half part the other way where it's a really tough three.

00:24:52
Speaker 2: You know, we we've seen a couple of examples lately in these big match play events of the organizing bodies of the events kind of changing routings of golf courses around so that the most memorable holes land on kind of like five or six holes before the end of the match because they're afraid that the match might not get to the really cool hole. My old opinion on that is that a lot of the best matches get to those last holes, and those best matches really create the memories, and so I think those holes need to be good. So I wonder if you if you thought about that.

00:25:29
Speaker 1: I totally agree with that. I mean, you know, you are conscious, you know. I mean, it obviously depends on the piece of land that you have as to where and how it's going to fit into the routing. But yeah, I mean fifteen sixteen, you know, I mean, as I say, seventeen and eighteen are really strong, strong finishing holes. But yeah, I mean, you don't, you know, a driveable part four or or a short five. I don't think you want to have them, you know, like right at the end. So sixteen sixteen, you know, fitting with the land and the routing, sixteen was was a good place, and it also gave us the opportunity to get a lot of hospitality units in and around the Striveal Power four which you know, for for for the for the organizers is vitally important as well, you know, but sorry going back to you know, like, you know, I think the back nine, you know, it's just you know, eleven, twelve, thirteen. You know, players can go four under for those three holes. It's the easy stretch on the course over the you know, as I say, over the most undulating terrain. You know, we've tried to we try to get as much drama into the back nine as we possibly can because that's that's ultimately where the matches are going to be, you know, determined.

00:26:48
Speaker 2: Now a lot of people have weighed in on whether Marco Simone will favor the European team as strongly as Legolf Nationale seemed to in twenty eighteen. Do you have a view on that?

00:27:03
Speaker 1: I think, I mean, I'm going to be very sit on the fence and just say that I think the team that plays the best is going to win. But i mean, look, look, home course advantage that the home team, you know, there's no secret that's you know that the rough is going to be up, there's an accuracy going to be placed on hitting those fairways, and you know it's that's pretty similar to the Golf National and you know Europe were successful. Now you can argue, you know, the team is both teams are vastly different to twenty eighteen, and if you looked at the stats, you know there's there's barely a difference in driving accuracy, driving distance between the two teams. So you know, as I say, it comes back to you know, the team who plays the best is going to win. But I don't think what can't be overlooked is the fact that a lot of the European players have played the course in tournament conditions and I think that helps.

00:28:11
Speaker 2: Well that's a very diplomatic answer, but slightly slightly, slightly favorable to Team Europe, which is what I would expect. So as I'm sure you're aware, Marco Simone did come in for some criticism during the twenty twenty one Italian Open, which I believe was the debut year for the redesign on the European too, or some of the players made it known that they didn't enjoy certain aspects of the course, particularly the severity of the seventh green, the number of blind approach shots, things of that nature. How did you feel about those comments?

00:28:51
Speaker 1: Well, I mean you know, like you look, everyone in golf has an opinion, and look, yeah, we've worked on enough tournament courses in the past that you know, we've got a pretty pretty thick skin on these sort of things. I mean, not everybody fully appreciates why certain things are like they are. I mean seven green and seventeen for instance. You know we were impacted by by gas lines on that and that they were changes we had to make in construction, and I mean, you know, I think I think a lot of lessons were learned from the first Italian Open in terms of the green speeds. You know, like the greens were really quick in the first one, and you know, like from a from a setup point of view, you know, like a couple of a couple of the pin positions were a little bit a little bit tricky. And then coming back to the point on the blind shots. You know, like when you're rooting a course, it's not like you're rooting a course, not like you're rooting a course, you know, finding the best eighteen holes. You know, we're trying to factor in the spectators as well and trying to you know, maximize the experience the spectators are going to get, so for instance, you know, a lot of a lot of the green means have you know, amphitheaters behind, so you know, the t shots will be from raised elevations playing down and then the second shot plays up, but it's got a backdrop for the spectators to see everything. So those sort of things, you know, we fact we had to factor in. But you know, the site has a lot of elevation change. You know, you can't get away from the fact that there's over fifty meters of elevation from the low point on Hold eight all the way to the highest points on Hold twelve. And you know, some holes are going to play downhill and some holes are going to play up. He'll can't change the site.

00:30:36
Speaker 2: So yeah, were there any further changes to the course made after that twenty twenty one Italian Open. It sounds like maybe green speeds were slowed down a little bit, But were there any other lessons learned that were then you know, kind of followed up on in the design after that tournament after.

00:30:57
Speaker 1: You know, Okay, the green speeds, yeah, I mean, I mean they were just really quick in the first one, So it just took some positions out of play because of some of the slopes on the greens, but I would say the last two ride last two itally opens. They got the set up spot on. In terms of other little tweaks, I mean, obviously, you know, the captain comes on board and then they have a little bit of input in terms of, you know, what they would like to see. So there have been a few minor tweaks to a couple of fairway lines and a couple of bunkers, but other than that has been really really minor stuff.

00:31:36
Speaker 2: Can you give me any idea of what Luke Donald's main suggestions were. You can be as general as you want or as specific as you want, but I'm very curious as to what his perspective on the course was.

00:31:51
Speaker 1: He was more talking about it from it from a set up point of view. So you know, fairway with fairway withs in certain land area, certain distances. They were mainly you know, they were pretty much the main points, and as I said, there were only you know, a handful of them. They got some minor tweaks and then and then they had a little bit of inputs on a couple of the bunkers and there was one new bunker added on the part five twelve But other than that that that that was it. So yeah, it's been very minor.

00:32:29
Speaker 2: All right, Getting a little more philosophical here. Uh, there's been a lot of discussion in general lately around how golf courses can go about challenging elite professional golfers even as they get longer and straighter off the tee every year, right, new technology comes out, they gain a few yards, and it keeps going. So what do you think are some of the design elements that can really test these players even though they keep just getting longer and longer.

00:33:00
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, let's I mean, let's take Marcus Simony as an example. I mean, the great thing about the three Italian opens that we've had there, you know, is that even though it's not a long golf course at all and fifty yards, you know, we've got a lot of elevation change, You've got undulating lies, you know. But but that's that is what the what the site has given us. I think the greens, you know, you've got to add a bit of elevator undulation into the greens. But yeah, I mean, these these guys are really really good. But I think, you know, Marcus Simony and Zach Johnson you know, he made a comment when he made the visit. You know, the the good thing about the golf course is that it's going to test every element of every element of these players game, which I think you know is a positive. So you know, like driving accuracy, you know, ball striking, second shots in there, providing a challenge in and around the greens and then obviously the greens themselves. But you yea, it is really difficult because these guys are so good. I mean, the other thing that you know that tends to help is if the wind blows quite a bit, but you just can't can't get that every day unfortunately.

00:34:15
Speaker 2: How do you think through fairway wits on a golf course like this.

00:34:19
Speaker 1: You know we're being dictated to a little bit. It's not dictator, but you know, the the Ryder Cup Europe and the captains are having their inputs on how wide they want the fairway withs at certain distances. But you know, we also know, you know, like so going back to the Italian Open, you know, we know that that's an area where we can test the best players to give them slightly narrow fairway withits. But Marcus Simoni is a members club and you know for the majority of the members the fairway withs are forty yards wide, so you know, we are trying to factor in that as part of the design because we know that ninety nine percent of the time they played by amateur golfers who are definitely not of the ability of the players that are going to be at Marcus Mony next week.

00:35:11
Speaker 2: Now, Marcus mone is a members club as well as a championship golf course. As you mentioned, obviously, for a championship or a big event like the Ryder Cup, the rough is going to be quite a bit thicker than it would be during normal play. So speaking just of championship venues, what role do you think rough plays on those kinds of courses.

00:35:36
Speaker 1: Well, I think there's going to be a penalty for missing the fairways, and that's definitely the case at Marcus Moony. You know, they want to place a premium and accuracy off the tea, so you know, if you miss the fairways, you know they you don't have that control out of the rough coming into these greens and you need that. So yeah, I think it plays a It definitely plays an important part, and you know we are we don't want we don't want the professional player just hitting the ball anyway. You know, we need to be testing that side of their game as well.

00:36:11
Speaker 2: Now, you know, from my perspective, narrow fairways and thick rough tend to reduce the importance of strategic angles because when you're when you have a narrow fairway with rough right off the side, your job really is to hit the middle of the fairway. You're not thinking about hedging towards one side or another to try to get a better angle into the green. You can disagree with that if you'd like.

00:36:38
Speaker 1: I don't disagree. I don't disagree with that at all. I don't disagree with that at all. But you know, we we this is the this is a course specifically built for a specific purpose. You know. But but going back to you know, your your your you know my comments on the width for the average golfer, there is a lot more without it, Marcus money for the average golfer. And you know, they, you know, they get to choose, you know, different different paths and different ways to the green, you know, and they are multiple. Let's take sixteen for example, where there are multiple options off that tea. It's one of the wider fairways on the whole and they could you know, try and take on the stream. They can hit sort of a central bunker. And I'm talking for the amateur golfer here, you know, I mean actually you could you could say that, you know, on sixteen, depending on you know the state of play, especially in the foursomes and the match play. You know, players may take you know, a mid iron off the t box, you know, and play the whole totally differently. So you know, but yes, the fairwell with for the for the professional golfer are narrow, and you know we have been you know led by you know, Ryder Cup Europe and captains on this one. But you know, for the amateur golfer, we're always you know, nearly every green comp like every hole, there is always another way to get into, you know, that green. So you know, as much as we are you know, maybe slightly limited from that strategic point of view, in some way, you know, we are definitely factoring in you know, golfers of all ability on that one.

00:38:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, and certainly adjusting setup makes a big difference for the amateur golfer. And you would hope that any course that hosts the championship would find ways to bring the golf course back to what it should be for amateurs after the pros have visited. But I just wonder from an architect's perspective, you know, I know that the European team has had its input here and that they drive a lot of these setup decisions, right, setup is not so much your your purview here, But just from a designer's perspective, do you think angles have a role on a championship golf course? Do you think they they exist for players today?

00:39:01
Speaker 1: I think they do. I think they do for sure, and I think I think I think one of the things about marcous Simonia as well is that that there are quite a lot of dog legs, you know, so you know, they can choose which, you know, which club, how far which angle off the t that they wanna that they want to take on. And I think it's going to be fascinating to see how how people you know, tackle a lot of these golf holds, especially on the back nine where there are some pretty pretty big dog legs, you know. Yeah, And I think it comes back to, you know, the whole risk reward thing. And I think that's what you're trying to We were trying to get in in the course and for match play golf, you know, trying to have a lot of these risk award shots that we ask in the players to head. I mean, look, my view on risk award is every every golf shot, there's there's risk and reward on every shot, you know, whether it's sort of on a on a t shot, your second shot, if you're out the raft, you're you're you're trying to you're trying to weigh up all these sort of all the elements of of what that next shot is going to be. But yeah, I think I think angles player play an incredibly important part, and you know, like the way we've angled greens and you know how they sit for the next shot that the player's got to play. You know, they're incredibly important and we're trying to you know, I think on every golf course you're trying to make sure that you ask different tests and different challenges, you know, post multiple, multiple different questions throughout the round. And I think as and I'll come back to that Zach Zach Johnson comment. You know that's that I believe Marcus Money does really well.

00:40:43
Speaker 2: Do you think there's a difference between designing a course for stroke play and designing one for match play. Now, Marcus Money obviously hosts both kinds of events, but I wonder if you think that there should or can be a difference between those two kinds of courses.

00:41:00
Speaker 1: A slight difference. Yeah. I mean, you know, as I mentioned, the back nine has a lot of half par holes, and I think you want that risk reward element and you want to see people, you know, take things on. And I think you know, having you know, driveable par four short part fives, you know, and then you're mixing that in with you know, three really tough holes or probably four really tough holes in ten, fourteen, and fifteen which are really tough part fours, and then you've got the seventeenth which is a really tough part three. So I think, you know, like having a lot of half paws I think really help in terms of the match play course.

00:41:41
Speaker 2: And you know a kind of corollary to that question when you're looking at a course that hosts the Stroke Play Championship is score to par an important criterion for judging whether that course has been successful. That is, you know, a winning scorer that is around even par or or just under par. Does that mean the course has been more successful than a winning scorer that is more substantially under par.

00:42:12
Speaker 1: I think it depends who you ask. I think I think the professional player would love asking you. Yeah, I think I think the professional player would love a course which is, you know, well under par. I think I mean you obviously, I mean a US Open for instance. You know, it's it's great. I find it fascinating watching these guys, you know, trying to trying to get to par or be in and around par so I love the challenge that that poses them. But I don't think i'd want to watch it every week. But I think, you know, what I have enjoyed about the three Italian Opens is that, you know, the course only minus twelve minus thirteen all three years. So I think it's it's you know, you don't want to course with a player is totally obliterating it. But at minus twelve minus thirteen, I think that's provided the players with a really good challenge. They haven't taken the course to pieces, although I have to admit that in the first Italian Open, when there was a player who started on the back nine, which is all those opportunities, and when he was minus eight through seven holes, or something or you know, then you were starting to worry a little bit, but you know you finish that that minus five. But yeah, I think you don't want I personally don't want to see players like totally take a course that you've designed a part, but you you know, you still want to provide them with a good challenge.

00:43:40
Speaker 2: Now in a match play event like the Ryder Cup, obviously you don't have score to par to either worry about or to use as a rubric for judging the success of the course. So I'm curious about how how you might assess how the course does in the Ryder Cup. What doesn't mean for Marco Simone to work for this event? What are you looking for?

00:44:08
Speaker 1: Good? Great? What are we what are we looking for? We're looking for the matches to go to Sunday on the and go down eighteen would be amazing, you know, like thirteen all you know, going down eighteen would would would would be fantastic. I mean the you know, as you say, score to par doesn't doesn't matter. I think I think what we want is for there to be drama, you know, for there to be excitement, for there to be you know a load of cheers going on and I think, you know, I think it's the atmosphere, you know, generating you know, we've designed a course that hopefully proves dramatic for a Ryder Cup. And part of you know, getting that drama is is the atmosphere. You know, match play golf. If people you know, you know, in the in the better ball, if they play, if they shoot sixty, so what doesn't you know, it doesn't matter, you know, it's you're you're playing you know, player v player. And I think, you know, people people want to see, you know, excitement, they want to see you know, they're gonna they're gonna be shots where you know, balls are just gonna you know, roll off the green and run thirty forty yards away. And I think, you know, those sort of slopes they add to the whole experience. And I think, yeah, I mean we know that the course, you know, it's it's not there to trick anybody up, but it provides a good challenge. So yeah, I think I think some drama and going down eighteen on the Sunday would be amazing.

00:45:41
Speaker 2: Dave Sampson, this was a really interesting conversation. Thank you for coming on the podcast, and I hope you have a great Ryder Cup week.

00:45:48
Speaker 1: Thanks Gerret Pleasure.

00:45:58
Speaker 2: This episode of the Friday Golf Podcast was edited by Matt Ruschis.

00:46:03
Speaker 1: Thank you, Matt.

00:46:04
Speaker 2: One big thing that you can do to support Friday Golf is to join Club TF. It's one hundred and twenty dollars a year. It's our membership program and you get a lot of benefits and extra content with it. We have the Club TFE blog where we're posting a feature called Design Notebook, which covers everything that's going on in golf architecture right now, and we also post a weekly course profile. These are courses that we find really interesting and want to dig into deeper. And on Wednesdays, we have a professional golf themed column called what to Watch For that Joseph Lamania often writes and that provides insights into the professional game. In addition to the content aspect of Club TF, we have member only events. One of those is coming up pretty soon. It's called the Maiden Member Guest and it's at the Metal Club in Marin County and it's going to be really fun. It's a great course. It's Alistair McKenzie's first design in America and really looking forward to that. So, if you'd like to join Club TFE, go to the Frida egg dot com slash membership and see what it's all about. All right, thank you for listening, and we'll be back again.

00:47:14
Speaker 1: So